Today’s provocative lefty talking point—picked up by Kevin Drum and others and parroted in the comments here in order to suggest a disconnect between Presidential leadership and the “troops on the ground” (because remember: the left loves the troops; it’s the commanders they can’t stand)—has to do with a BBC report (video here, direct link here) showing Lt. Commander Sean Kelly, a Pentagon spokesman for Northern Command, “accidentally” telling the truth, as Kevin Drum quips in his introduction to the damning quote:
Northcom started planning before the storm even hit….We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready.
The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission
Drum concludes his post by asking, portentously, “So why didn’t the president issue the orders?”
…The short answer to which, it seems, is this: “Uh, he did.”
From a briefing today:
Q: Good morning. No doubt you’re well aware of the criticismâ€â€the debate about the speed and the scale of the initial deployment of relief. I’m just curious from your perspective, where you sit, and I know everyone’s working very hard. But I’m wondering if you believe that this was the best response that could be mounted considering the magnitude of what you were up against, or do you believe that a better job could or should have been done?
ADM. KEATING: It’s a good question, Jamie. From where I sit, of course we can do better. There will be lessons learned. We have teams in place both in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi to record those lessons so that it’s not just lessons observed, but we convert them into lessons learned.
On the other hand, the notion that we were a little late to need, I’ll offer you the following observations.
As Katrina was coming northwest out of the Caribbean, we started to make plans here in this headquarters in conjunction with FEMA to support Department of Homeland Security, about five days before Katrina made landfall. Once she eventually did, she came across, as you’ll recall, the southern tip of Florida on I think it was Thursday, the 25th of August and Friday the 26th. It got back into the Gulf, and then we learned that she was going to strengthen.
At that time on the Saturday/Sunday timeframe when we learned, the 27th/28th of August, that Katrina was building and was going to go through a Category 2 to a 3, we had disaster control officers, DCOs, who are active duty Army colonels, we moved them forward to Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana.
Now you will of course appreciate, we don’t want to put troops in front of a massive storm like this. When I was dropping bombs in Desert Storm, that was not an issue with which we were worried. We weren’t going to be dropping bombs on our own forces so we did not want to put our forces in front of this massive hurricane.
As soon as the hurricane cleared, and by the way, we were preparing deployment orders as we saw Katrina strengthen on the late Saturday/Sunday 28 August timeframe as she began to approach Louisiana and Mississippi, we alerted various forces to be prepared to move as soon as the situation on the ground stabilized and as soon as Department of Homeland Security, through FEMA, determined what particular assets we would need.
For example, we began putting Transportation Command assets aside, heavy lift airplanes, because we knew we would need food and water and ice as quickly as we could. We also used ground transportation capabilities that we have. We brought the USS Baton [ed’s note: USS Bataan; spelling error in the transcription] a large amphibious ship which was in the Gulf of Mexico anyway, she went well south to avoid the hurricane. As soon as we knew that the hurricane was moving north and hit landfall we brought Baton up behind her so she was providing helicopter search and rescue capability on Tuesday, just as the hurricane was moving up through northern Mississippi and on into Tennessee and Kentucky.
So that’s kind of a long answer to a short question, Jamie. We will of course work very carefully with the Department of Homeland Security to analyze the reaction to this particular disaster, but the fact that the Department of Defense wasn’t ready or wasn’t well prepared, I think is not correct.
[My emphasis].
One of the blogs pushing this story, linked by Drum, is The Carpetbagger Report, whose tagline is “Reality-Based Commentary, Analysis, and Tirades on Politics in America.”
Perhaps that blog’s readers would be better served if The Carpetbagger paid more attention to the “reality” part, and gave the “tirades” a bit of a rest—at least until he’s able to get a better handle on the facts.
But really, what are the chances of that happening…?
****
(h/t John Cole)
****
update: Looks like I’m on the same page as QandO (thanks to monica in the comments)
Jon Henke links to this NYT piece. The relevant excerpt, describing the morning of Aug 31:
four MH-53 Sea Stallion and two HH-60 Seahawk helicopters from USS Bataan were flying medical-evacuation and search-and-rescue missions in Louisiana, and Bataan’s hospital was preparing for possible use for medical support
…But the ship’s site suggests rescue missions were flying on the 30th.
****
update 2: Lt. Commander Kelly emails Drum with clarification:
USNORTHCOM was prepositioned for response to the hurricane, but as per the National Response Plan, we support the lead federal agency in disaster relief  in this case, FEMA. The simple description of the process is the state requests federal assistance from FEMA which in turn may request assistance from the military upon approval by the president or Secretary of Defense. Having worked the hurricanes from last year as well as Dennis this year, we knew that FEMA would make requests of the military  primarily in the areas of transportation, communications, logistics, and medicine. Thus we began staging such assets and waited for the storm to hit.
The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself  couldn’t begin really helping until it passed  and damage assessment  figuring out which roads were passable, where communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue the mission on Tuesday night.
The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.
Next.
****
update 3: Kerry-conservative Andrew Sullivan characterizes the clarification this way:
“Carpetbagger corrects to say that it was FEMA and not the president who did not give the necessary order to get to work.”
Now, go back and read the above quote and tell me if Andy has even bothered to read clarification for himself.
Not to mention that a quick visit to Carpetbagger suggests that Andy’s characterization of Carpetbagger’s update is complete bullshit. Writes Carpetbagger, after quoting Lt. Commander Kelly’s clarification:
That’s good to hear, but it strikes a different tone than what Kelly told the BBC. If the authorization was timely, and was given when it should have been, then the process worked far better than the BBC report suggested.
Well, yeah. That would explain why the Bataan was sending helos off on rescue missions on Monday and Tuesday.
Howard Dean with a hairy chest: that’s all Andrew Sullivan is these days.
(h/t John Cole)
But really, what are the chances of that happening…?
I’m going to go with: “Slim to none.” In other words, about the same chance that certain lefties who’ve taken up residence in your comments section will learn to recognize the difference between “facts” and “assertions.”
Just, you know, a wild guess. (What do you mean “rhetorical question?”)
The guys at the Questions and Observations blog have already responded to this nonsense. Check it out: http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2515
Thanks, Monica. Looks like Henke and I are on the same page today.
The White House says it so it MUST be true. Faith-based politics to the max.
Well, the New York Times, too (see update), but that’s probably just more JOOOOOO lies.
Christ, you are a fucking idiot.
“Faith-based politics to the max”
Unlike your well-thought-out, meticulously researched, and coldly logical “blame the Jews for 9/11” stuff, eh G?
ghandi—how old are you? Really. Have you ever been on a trip out of Australia? New Zealand doesn’t count.
Must of the argument put forth by critics of federal responsiveness results in the following proposition:
Should the federal government assume the responsibility for development and execution of local emergency preparedness and response plans?
(Forget the constraints of the existing legal framework.)
The human catastrophe is a result of tens of thousands failing to evacuate, and not a result of mankind’s inability to overcome the logistical impediments of a destructive storm.
Locating the decision to evacuate the Mississippi delta in Washington, DC, rather that in NO or LA is an unserious suggestion.
But then there’s been a lot of silly and unserious talk.
ghandiâ€â€how old are you? Really.
Old enough to be married with (I think) two kids.
Scary thought.
You’re doing good work, Jeff. I hope you had some good barbecue and nice brew (or two) today.
BTW, I suspect the Commies-in-charge have tasked gandhi boy with eroding your morale. Don’t let the bastards grind you down!
tw: cause, as in, keep uo the fight for the
I’m still curious how gandhi and his comrade Waddo happened to come here – and has anyone visited Wadard’s website? What is it with the obsession with Google searches there? I guess I’m too far from a billabong to see the point on those.
Jeff
TW: Heart
My thanks for yours.
is this transcript available anywhere other than defenselink? and wouldn’t one expect a guy whose website is named after carpetbaggers to be aware that the federal military can’t do the law enforcement stuff without the governor’s request?
John Cole’s really paying for his screeds during the Schiavo fiasco. I don’t read the Kos Kidz’ comments, but I’ll bet they resemble those on Balloon Juice.
Lefty bloggers are letting it all hang out on this one. They think they’ve got a keeper, and they’re not holding anything back. Unfortunately for them, they’re creating a permanent record of inept fact checking that’s going to catch up to them sooner or later.
Actually Jeff, regardless of what the “facts” are, you seem to be on the side that is pushing stuff and having no luck making it stick.
Still, courage.
You know. Because of the hypocrisy.
They are creating a permanent record of irrational, seething, blinding hatred. The fact they can advertise themselves as progressives and the party of open minded optimism is a mystery I will never be able to understand.
Brad de Long has taken the local officials in NO to task. Unfortuantely his comment section is populated with people, like Azael, who have purposely blinded themselves to the facts. Unfortnately for Azael and the rest the momentum on this has all ready turned. Not becuase of any slick political machine, but becuase of the facts. Look for much, much insanity from the left over the next couple of weeks.
Jeff, please stop stifling people’s right to Dissent. They’re just speaking Truth to Power.
Yes, keep saying it.
Courage.
Well, “Azael’s” comment is telling, isn’t it? It’s a game: see which truths we can shout down and pervert simply by force of will.
Of course, this isn’t the first time today I’ve had to address such things. I just wonder why “Azael” isn’t upset about it.
Well, you seem to have one and only one goal in this series of posts: save your party’s ass. I mean, if it weren’t just a political game to you, then why the hell would you care who “wins” the PR war. After all, it’s the people who matter, not who’s poll numbers sink or rise, right?
Really, Jeff. You’ll have to do better than compare me to Ghandi.
I love it when you get all puffed up and authoritarian and stuff. Makes me shiver.
Actually Jeff, regardless of what the “facts†are, you seem to be on the side that is pushing stuff and having no luck making it stick.
Still, courage.
Does anyone besides me find it ironic that Azael is accusing Jeff of the main tactic that Dan Rather used throughout his (cough-snicker) illustrious career – including the one that will now dog him to his dying day – and then punctuating that accusation by using Rather’s sign-off?
Rrrrrright. And you guys aren’t actively trying to take it down. No matter what. You don’t mind using dead people. Because it’s like a crusade.
Just keep telling yourself that, “Azael.” All you have left to point to as proof of failure is Bush and “Brownie’s†optimism during press conferences while consistently screaming that people were dying! in increasinly strained tones of outrageâ€â€as if either Bush or Brownie didn’t know that and hadn’t put into motion all of the relief effort they were supposed to put into motion.
I’ve provided readers here with fact after fact, link after link. And yourf have comeback is to call me a Bush apologist, etc., without providing any evidence that the Federal response was anything less than exactly as it should have been.
It’s amusing, really, to watch you rail and blame and call names as me and the readers here—the vast majority both of whom, I’m certain, set out to draw conclusion from facts, not to work backward from a conclusion (as you seem to have done) became Bush “ass coverers” by default, because that’s where the facts, as the come to light, continue to take us.
But as you say, courage.
It is probably an unfair comparison, but would it be too much trouble for the MSM to illustrate how well Haley Barbour and his team are handling this with the feds?
Also: in light of the immediate Bash Bush fest underway, Should Bobby Jindal (sp?) or someone like him, decide to run for Governor, and even give a hint that a better job could have been done by the State, is there any doubt that he would be castigated by the same folks now bashing the Pres.? He would be stoned by the MSM for bringing this up: “How dare you capitalize on this tragedy, when so many died”… blah, blah.
I don’t know Jeff. Couple thousand dead. About a million permanently displaced. Lot’s of unanswered questions.
Plenty of cuddlebutt, though.
Odd that you’re fighting on two fronts, don’t you think? I mean, there’s more than a few on the right who seem to see things in quite the same way as the majority of democrats do. I guess they’re just a bunch of ideologues trying to bring down the party, too. Right?
Facts. Love that term you keep throwing out.
Courage, Jeff. Operation Cuddlebutt will prevail in the end.
Maybe Azael dind’t understand. Brad DeLong, who worked for the Clinton administration, and is a professor at Berkley, for heaven sakes, thinks the sins of the local governement far out strip anything FEMA could have done. Now maybe Mr. Delong is right, maybe not, but he’s not exaclty a Rove plant. Shouldn’t his opinion at least suggest to you that you should be open to the possiblity that the local governement in LA has some responsiblity for the people trapped there?
When center-left and otherwise sensible pundits like Drum depart into this moonbattery, it raises the question of how this will effect electoral politics.
Every time the Bush Administration or the Republican Party manages to do something foolish or corrupt, whatever damage it suffers is exceeded by the Left, which only hurts itself with increasing derangement. This pattern is worrisome because there are no consequences for the Republicans for their occasional mismanagement.
Maybe you don’t understand. Local authorities, even on their tip top best day, are completely incapable of dealing with this scale of disaster.
But hey, major props for using “even the liberal Brad DeLong”. That’s gotta be painful.
That’s not necessarily true, Azael. What’s true is that New Orleans city government was too incompetent to handle it. They squandered important time and resources until they lost both.
Oh, lookie! “Azael’s” come up with a cute name, Operation Cuddlebutt, in lieu of addressing any of the facts that I’ve linked to and cited.
Like “Shrub,” and “Resident Bush”! Cute names!
Because it’s all about branding!
To address your other question, I’ve never minded debating whomever happens to be wrong, regardless of what party s/he belongs to. Because such things don’t matter to me. I’m interested in getting to the truth.
Now, I’m done answering your accusations about my motives, “Azael.” Either correct me on the facts or fuck right off. I’m not interested in having a partisan pissing contest.
oh gee HAL, way to not get up to speed on the debate. that’s okay, just totally ignore everything and smarm away!
Azael,
The right isn’t limited to only folks with a clue, nor is it exclusively limited to folks who believe strictly in federalism. As repulsive as that is to me.
I get the impression that you and ghandi believe that BushCoInc should have gotten Haliburton to put up a big Deflect-O-Shield and just bounced that big ol’ hurricane back into the Gulf. If not, could you please stop just blathering and cite specific things that the Feds should have done, within current law and within the flow of information that has been documented (what aid was requested when, etc.)
Or just shut the fuck up.
TW answer, as in I don’t expect any from you.
Wow mags, aren’t you the clever one.
Well Jeff, wasn’t it just a post or two ago that you were saying it was all about framing.
Keep digging for the truth. All I was pointing out is that you’re spending 100% of the time refuting and pushing the blame to the locals.
Oh, and Azael, I guarandamntee you that most localities in my area would do a better job than NO did in this. What the fire departments and city governments in my area do in this situation is open their goddamned procedure manual and implement it. If NO had done that, those school buses wouldn’t be floating around that parking lot.
Before you ask, 23 years as a paramedic qualifies me to make that statement.
Oooh. Patrick said “fuck”.
Well, let’s see. As the was quoted in the LA Times.
But hey. As Jeff says, the best we can expect from our government is 72 hour service.
Actually it is none of that. It’s a little thing called truth. There is honor in words – words have meaning and when they are put together properly they project ideas. It is important to some of us to protect the meaning of those words. As an example, the Federal Government prepared and executed a very admirable plan for disaster assistance, in an unprecedented display of logistical magic and superhuman speed.
When idiots like you attempt to change admirable to poor, you are fucking with my language. When you attempt to change unprecedented to lackluster, you are trying to strip honor from my words. Now if we let you change the language to suit your convoluted logic; let you quote out of context, let you drop context and let you continually create strawmen – we would have no language to use in rebuttal.
That would be bad for you. Once we reach the point where words no longer have meaning, where facts are “whatever you say they are” then the only way we have to protect ourselves is force.
So basically what we are doing here is for your own benefit. We are sacrificing our time (and fingertips) so we do not have to resort to beating the shit out of you.
Azael, you are just outright lying. That there was a federal disaster declaration did not – and legally could not – put the Federal government in charge. Only Louisiana’s governor could do that, and as has been shown here she refused.
New Orleans always knew that Federal aid would take several days to arrive. They failed to hold up their end.
Man, we be laying it on quite thick. Still, keep saying it. Sheer repitition has worked quite well in the past.
Um, seems your reading comprehension is somewhere around 0, Robin. Or didn’t you note that it wasn’t me who said that. Maybe you should follow the link before you start popping off accusations.
Take a sight seeing tour around the left coast of the blogosphere and it will become apparent that they could give two shits what went right or wrong and what we can do better the next time. All they care about is how can they use this to hurt Bush and return to power. Their thought processes have degenerated to the point that hurting Bush/regaining power is the benchmark for everything rattling around in their pointy little heads. Nothing has meaning beyond that.
Left unsaid by Jeff is that the U.S.S. Bataan is a hospital ship. It’s been sitting out at sea,and except for a few chopper missions, referenced by the Admiral, is sitting there useless. Yet to receive a single patient, altough it has capacity for hundreds. Another little fun fact…
Nothing the Admiral says contradicts what the Lt. Commander says. In fact a careful reading indicates their accounts are perfectly consistent.
And another fact which goes unmentioned mostly, around here. After Governor Blanco declared her state of emergency, and asked for federal assistance, President Bush followed with a fairly prompt federal declaration of emergency. With that act he assumed ownership of the leading federal role.
If you folks tried making some of these faux legal arguments in court you’d be inviting some very uncomfortable grilling by the judges, at the least and Rule 11 sanctions or disciplinary referrals. These arguments seem to have little good faith basis. Rather, they seem like desperate, shyster style arguments designed to misdirect rather than serious legal argument.
But then again, the people who invariably want to pull shyster style tricks are civilians, not lawyers.
Azael, the accusation fits you best.
Didn’t hurt a bit Azael. I’m not even a Republican. And I’m not saying FEMA hasn’t screwed up. I don’t think we know for sure yet. What I am saying is that you haven’t shown one fact that proves it did, and that you seem more interested in name calling than laying out facts that back your position.
You say that the Local authorities couldn’t handle the situation. Then why did they draw up a plan, with the help of James Lee Witt, apparently, which called for them to handle the situation for three to five days? Why were literally hundred of school buses left to flood in New Orleans rather than used to ferry people out of town. Why did two thirds of the New Orleans police department walk off the job, a situation no one could have foreseen? Why is Mayor Nagin sending the officers that remain to Las Vegas on the city’s dime? Why does the genral on the ground in New Orleans claim that he couldn’t have gotten his people to the scene any faster? Why don’t you hold the local and state officals in LA to the same standard you hold George Bush? Why don’t you put away the insults and make a point or answer a question. I’m sorry, but you haven’t made a case or for that matter, even attempted to make one. And the more you talk the less convincing you become.
Az,
I’ll try not to repeat what Robin said, but Jane Bullock is apparently as ignorant of the law as you. But, once again, if the feds had rushed in and taken over the operation, you would have been the first one shrieking about how the facist BusHitlerCo overran the poor local government and how could they do such a thing.
Face it. You’re far more interested in hanging this on Bush than you are in the truth or answers. Otherwise you’d pick someone other than the MSM anchor, the LATimes, to come up with a quote. What’s next? Michael Moore’s website or the NYT?
Ken,
Blanco’s request on the 28th was for funding. So far, it is you who would be sanctioned for frivolous submissions. That misrepresentation alone would do that job.
Corvan, in case you haven’t noticed, I haven’t made any affirmative statement other than it seems like Jeff is the one TRYING, but alas, can’t seem to make it STICK.
Jury’s still out for me. Seems pretty bad from Bush’s perspective. I’m sure there’s more than enough mud to go around, but hey. I’m not counting on Blanco for terrorist/disaster response. I am counting on the federal government. And quite frankly, from the performance, it appears that they have to be given an “F”. Because if the rules are as Jeff seems to be claiming as a defense, then they need to be seriously revamped because the next disaster is going to turn out just the same as this one has.
But hey, keep stuffing words in my mouth. It’s what you blokes do so very well.
No Ken, the declaration of emergency does not push the Governor of LA. out of the way and put the President in charge of the government of LA. That ground has been covered here, and in alot of other places as well. By the way, I’m still waiting for you to answer my question. Do you bleive that the presdinet should have federalized this entire matter a week ago Friday and basically taken control of of LA? Is that what you and Azael are saying?
It has been used as a wharehouse/staging area Ken, and it’s helicopters have been very busy flying picking up people to hospitals on land. They haven’t used the beds on the boat because there are better facilities ashore, they just need the helicopters to get them there.
Go find an ambulance to chase. Hopefully in heavy traffic.
Um, Ken, you’re a nitwit. Quoting from their website:
A hospital ship? I think not.
You can go there.
Wow Patrick! Paramedic <em>and<em> mind reader. Maybe you didn’t listen during the RWAP training course, but liberals actually like government. We think it does good things. And we actually think there’s a reason for it existing.
Really now. Try again. You can do it.
Courage.
and ken, would you please enlighten us about what kind of injuries we’re seeing here? in talking to people heading up the medical response, there’s been almost no trauma care needed. and why put people that do need help on a ship that they’ll eventually need to be moved off of when they could go straight to a land location that’s probably just as close and remain there until they’re healed?
If you are counting on anyone but yourself in a disaster scenario you truly are an idiot.
The Bataan is a hospital ship? Ken, your utter incompetence is revealed again. It has a medical suite, but it is not a hospital ship. It is a Wasp class amphib.
Sheesh. Dipshits like you calling the President incompetent is just unbelievable.
I’m with Jeff on this one. Azael doesn’t want to debate. She’s like a mosquito, she just flits around being a nuisance.
I think I’ll just go inside and let you kids play with her. Maybe one of you will swat her.
Az,
I also believe the government is good and has purpose. I just don’t believe that rushing in and shoving local and state governments out of the way is part of their job, nor does that little inconvenient thing called the Constitution.
C’mon, what’s your plan?
Well, that’s true now. Wasn’t the case when the Clinus was in charge of things. But ever since y’all have been dismantling things… you’re right. We’re just on our own.
Pretty much sums up the entire republican philosophy, don’t it?
Well, except for all the corporate welfare, subsidies, tax give aways and infrastructure that we pay for.
Azeal- On what do you base your grade? If someone could just give me one specific thing he’s screwed up, I’d feel so much better. I could hop on the ‘enough blame to go around’ bandwagon! I could be popular with people who fancy themselves clever. But I can’t find even one thing. So what specifically is it that causes you to give him an ‘F’?
Azael has quite a fantasy life.
Freud observed that if it wasn’t for sex that men and women would be at war with one another.
I’m trying to think of an analogy for the left and right in this country.
If it wasn’t for “____”, the left and right would be at war with one another.
The Constitution? Elections? Fear? Cowardice? Or??
Because damned if we’re not getting closer to something really ugly. We don’t live in separate worlds, we’re living in distinct universes. Up is down and down is up.
Universal education, greater literacy et cetera were supposed to break down barriers and lead to greater understanding among people. Doesn’t appear to be working.
Maybe I’m wrong.
Very, very odd times.
SMG
Bokonon, Azael has flunked the administration because they didn’t scrap the Constitution in advance of the hurricane’s arrival.
Jeff, did you put out an ad for a clown convention? Because gandhi, Ken and Azael must have arrived in one of those silly little clown cars.
Azael, one moment you say the jury is still out for you. The next you’re handing out Fs. That seems fairly inconsistent. Additionally the questions I asked require answers. Which you dind’t give. Finally, if you lived in the state of LA. you would be counting on Blanco for disaster repsonse. AS a matter of fact you would be counting on her exclusively, until she jumped out of the way and asked the president to take over.
Even now she’s in charge, the federal authorities are there to assist her, not take over for her. That’s the way the law works here. Of course you would know that if you happened to be one of us “blokes.”
Ooh, Az has the KosBook open to page 42 and he’s all the way up to “corporate giveaways” and “tax breaks for the rich”!
And dismantling things? Puhlleeeeze. As much as I (and others) have railed against it, the government is bigger and less useful than ever. Of course, the underfunding of the levees that began in the 60’s is all Bush’s fault, even though he was all coked up and getting his DUI’s then (sorry, that’s on KosBook page 38, in case you overlooked it.)
Well, you’ll first note that I didn’t say “him”, I said “they”. It’s a group effort. Still, nice try with that gambit. After all, it’s just about hating Bush, right?
And let’s flip this. You’re telling me that this was the best we can expect? Lordy, I guess it was naive of me to think there was actually a bar.
SMG said:
“I’m trying to think of an analogy for the left and right in this country.
If it wasn’t for “____â€Â, the left and right would be at war with one another. “
Money.
Or more accurately the right’s means of production. As much as the left hates it, they still haven’t gone nuts enough to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. I worry that it is coming though.
Saith Azael,
And all you’re doing is spending 100% of your time refuting and pushing the blame on George W. Bush. It would be one hellluva lot easier for us “Bush Apologists” to, y’know, acknowledge some of the mistakes made if you assholes didn’t leap immediately from any recognition of error to “well, shoot the guy.” News for you: there’s no provision for do-overs on elections. Get rid of Bush, do. Then you get Dick Cheney for President, and you deserve every bit of it.
Fact: Any effective response to any disaster has to be local in the early days. FEMA’s guidelines say not to expect substantial help for 72 to 96 hours—that’s three to four days, for the math impaired. If the local authorities drop the ball, lots of people are in deep trouble until the Feds can get their thumbs out.
Fact: There have been mistakes and false starts. There have also been malfeasance, misfeasance, and culpable nofeasance, and every pulsing pendulosity in the latter categories is not only a local, but a committed, rubber-chicken-buying, Gore-and-Kerry-voting Democrat. New Orleans had a long document purporting to be a disaster-reaction plan; the first thing that happened was that that plan went out the window. Louisiana has a disaster-reaction plan; the first thing that happened was that the Governer discarded the plan, declared a “state of emergency” by (apparently) first class mail, and sent a letter demanding money and a pile of stuff that wasn’t anywhere in the plan. And FEMA has a whole stack of plans, every single one of which is predicated on local authorities following the plans they’ve made up and filed, and every one of which had to be tossed out and restarted because the Mayor and the Governor dropped the ball.
Fact: There are only three ways in and out of New Orleans: the Interstate down the old Airline Highway route from the west, the Ponchartrain Causeway from the north, and the Interstate across a big m’f’er bridge over Pass Christian from the East. Oh, and ships move at around fifteen miles an hour. There were truckers all over the CB and some on the Internet, ready, willing, and loaded to bring supplies to NO, but they couldn’t get in because the bridges were down. The choppers from Bataan got there as fast as they could from over two hundred miles away.
Fact: Louisiana is a highly corrupt place, and New Orleans is notable even there for corruption. The standard is 20 percent, off the top, for the locals—parish officials, mayors, sheriffs, and the like—and the rest goes to actually build stuff. Those officials then kick back their bribes to the Governor, and tithe to the Party in gratitude for the opportunity. Part of the reason all the bridges fell down was that they were built cheaply, and part of the reason for that is that the money went to the “John Kerry for President” campaign, or possibly Gore’s, Clinton’s, or some other Democrat’s farther back.
Fact, or at least informed supposition based on the available evidence: You moonbats are so accustomed to egotistical, micromanaging dunderheads that you clearly have no idea how a good manager works. A good manager gives his subordinates directions, tells them “handle it”, and goes fishing early and often. Attributed to Sun Tzu: “When the Superior Man has done his work, the people say, we did it all ourselves.” No, George Bush didn’t leap into action. He didn’t need to. He had subordinates with boilerplate instructions that he trusted to handle it. Some of them dropped the ball. Turning that into another round of Blame Bush is just another symptom of Derangement Syndrome.
And it finally comes down to this: there have been errors. There has been incompetence. But in every single case of culpable, blameable misbehavior, it has been the misbehavior of a Louisiana local who is a stalwart of the Democratic Party. You know it as well as I do. It’s why you’re waving your hands and screaming, trying to take attention away from the real situation. By my take it isn’t working too good this time. Been to that well a bit too often lately, y’think?
Regards,
Ric
Corvan, you’ll note I said “And quite frankly, from the performance, it appears that they have to be given an “Fâ€Â.” It’s a tentative grade based on what I know now. It’s only inconsistent to someone who’s not reading.
Keep saying it Patrick. People will believe it if you keep saying it over and over.
Repetition is the key.
Az,
No, this isn’t the best we could expect. The best would have been that the City of NO would have made those 300-some buses available on street corners in the poorer neighborhoods 12-24 hours before the storm hit for evacuation of those without other means of transportation. It’s been well documented elsewhere that a couple of trips per bus would have done a nice job of evacuating the lower income areas.
And of course, some actual coordination (like a war room) with state/local/fed communication would have been nice.
Azael is now going to tell us how Azael would evacuate a city the size of New Orleans. Solution using the Enterprise’s transporter beams will be marked down one grade.
For extra credit, Azael will account for each one of the missing 1,000 New Orleans PD.
It is the best you can expect if your goal is to politicize and exploit rather than learn and correct.
See? Follow Ric’s example. It’s all our own fault.
Oh yes. It’s not a game for Republicans.
It’s the fight of their lives.
Azael, you marshalled some wonderful facts up above.
“About a million permanently displaced.”
Excellent, absolutely correct. But you forgot a little context. About a million permanently displaced as a result of a Cat-4 hurricane. Even employing your hubris, the government (at any level) could do nothing to prevent the devastation of the storm.
I’m sorry, what was the unanswered question?
Next:
“Couple thousand dead.”
Again, absolutely correct. Why? They failed to evacuate from the forecast path of a Cat-4 hurricane. Why? The city failed to evacuate their citizens. An evacuation plan is not something you hope people follow, it must be actionably implemented. Hope is not a plan.
I’m sorry, what is the unanswered question?
Lastly:
“Local authorities, even on their tip top best day, are completely incapable of dealing with this scale of disaster.”
Very prescient of you. Local authorities caused this human disaster–by failing to execute their evacuation plan and leaving tens of thousands of their city residents at risk in an area they knew needed to be evacuated.
You know, because they “ordered” people to evacuate, meaning they knew people should evacuate, but other than talk, they didn’t do anything to make it happen…like execute their plan.
Next we’ll have the federal government come around and wipe your nose, because city and state officials can’t be counted on to recognize the obvious–a Cat-4/5 storm, or do their job–execute the evacuation plan.
I’m sorry, you said there were some unanswered questions. What were they? I’ve got a cold, and I’m waiting for the feds to come around and wipe my nose, so I’m a little distracted from all these complicated issues.
If you haven’t made up your mind shouldn’t you be gathering evidence you could base adecision on rather than arguing with Jeff and the rest of the “blokes.” And why didn’t you answer any of my questions?
For that matter why don’t you know that the governor’s of individual American States are tasked with disaster relief, and that the federal government is there strictly to assist them. I understand why Ghandi doesn’t know. He’s from Australia. Why don’t you?
Hmm, Forbes. As has been repeatedly pointed out
But hey. Keep framing it as a game of nose wiping.
Yes, Azael, we already know that you are ignorant of the relevant law.
You keep saying that, and I see an awful lot of smoke and hand waving over what the law says, but seems to me that you’re on the wrong side of the interpretation.
And might I just say that it isn’t just democrats saying this. As I’ve pointed out previously, you’re fighting on two fronts with respect to this. Significant percentages of your own party seem to have the same interpretation.
And, quite frankly, I’ll wait for a real answer instead of hearing what is and isn’t from a blog comment, thank you very much.
Jeff, please don’t pick on Kevin. You don’t pick on kids riding the short bus, do you? Easy target, but kind of unseemly.
He has let BDS overcome almost all semblance of reasoning.
Azael, you are quite ignorant on several fronts. First of all, we discussed the relevant law in great detail several threads back.
Secondly, Gov. Blanco’s own press releases reveal that she has never turned over control of New Orleans or any other part of Louisiana to the Federal government.
Azael,
Again, you don’t understand the quote. A Federal emergency makes the matter a federal reponsiblity, true. That responsiblity is to assist the state government. The Feds job is to assist, not take over. Otherwise, the various and sundry states would be dissolved every time a tornado blew through the midwest or the Mississippi over flowed its banks. I still don’t understand why we “blokes” know that but you don’t. Like I said, Ghandi is from Australia. What’s your excuse. And why didn’t you answer my other questions?
Because, you see, if you closes your eyes and ignores the links, you can claim you haven’t seen any “real answer”. Because real answers only come from the LATimes.
By the way, the NO Mayor is killing some of his residents:
/popeye talk
Eh, looks like we have dueling block quotes from the same source, Az.
I’ve got a Cabinet Secretary – you got a former chief of staff. Sort of like me haveing a Queen and you haveing a Rook.
Corvan, you don’t understand the meaning of the word “responsibility” and “ownership”. Which is kind of funny, because it’s something you on the right keep harping on.
Robin, yes. I saw the discussion. Very informative, but not in the way you think it is.
Patrick, whoa dude. Sounds like the Mayor is a true blue republican, don’t it.
Again, you blokes don’t quite understand it. I’m a liberal. We actually do think there’s things that the federal government should override the states on. It’s only a paradox from your perspective.
Lordy.
Az, you’ve only proven that Jeff can’t make the argument stick to YOU, since you are impervious to facts. Covered in your teflon, truth just can’t stick to you because your presuppositions are designed to repel anything unlike your own composition.
Tease, taunt, and pet your precioussss! opinions all you want. You are bankrupt of aught but straw and your prating and prattling here just sounds like Scarecrow singing, “If I Only Had a Brain.”
(Heh. LOTR and Wizard of Oz in the same slam! But you gotta resort to fantasy parallels when working with folks who reject facts. It’s more familiar to them.)
Bankrupt. Empty. Ya got bupkis in this thread. Logistics don’t bow to your smug assertions, and the folks with an experience are not at the mercy of your opinions. Thank G_d for THAT small grace.
No Azael, I understand the difference just fine. You’re trying to confuse them. And you’re not saying the federal goivernement should override the state governement. Your saying it should put it out of business. that’s tow very different things. You’re also avoiding my questions, and not very deftly. Answer them please. We blokes want to know your answers.
Azael, you are obviously bereft of any substantive point.
Azael decreeth:
Bullshit.
Brown screwed the pooch, no question.
But it wouldn’t have made any difference whatever if Mayor Nagin and Gov. “Wet” Blanco had done their jobs.
And part of what has us so f’ing frustrated is that we can’t just fire the guy, because all of your moonbat screechings have turned it into the usual “impeach Bush NOW!” FFM, as you try to wave hands and shriek loud enough to take attention away from the screwups of your own people.
Regards,
Ric
“decreeth”
Lordy.
Robin, you’re right. My only substantive point was that Jeff seemed to be the one TRYING , but alas, he just can’t make it STICK.
Just speculation.
YOu still haven’t answered my questions, Azael. C’mon, share with the blokes.
Also sprach Azael:
Oh, we understand perfectly, my dear. You want the principle firmly established, so that the next time there’s an abortion-clinic protest you can send in troops, execute the Governor, and put everybody in jail for “hate speech” except the fetus, which gets the death penalty.
That’s not the way it is. And there are a bunch of us out here who are moderately determined to insure that it never becomes the way it is.
Regards,
Ric
At the risk of belaboring the fantasy parellel, this whole Az circus reminds me of the Star Trek episode where a hateful entity was feeding off the attentions and antipathy of the crew. Kirk made everyone deride and laugh at the hateful entity, thus depriving it of its preciousss! sustinence.
IOW, if you ignore Az, it’ll go away. If it doesn’t, it’s best to laugh at it.
Ric, I haven’t yet seen a single rational statement of what Brown screwed up. I don’t buy into Tman’s overwrought analysis of press conference statements. What have you seen about Brown’s actions?
Robin,
I almost hate to bring this up here, knowing Azael and Ken are lurking, but —
Behind all the screeches and insanity, the moonbats do have one real point: Government is, to a large extent, a performance art. Brown’s an incompetent. We’ve had incompetents in such offices before, and they don’t do much damage if they’ll get out of the way and let their subordinates handle it. Unfortunately Brown’s also a fool who doesn’t realize he’s incompetent, so he started issuing off-plan orders and generally screwing things up, and going on TV to brag about it. The guys in the field are doing what they always do in such situations, which is doing what they’re supposed to do plus the minimum necessary to get around whatever sycophants and commissars the boss has sent.
And again, if Nagin and Blanco had had plans in place and people ready to execute them as planned, it wouldn’t have made any difference because there wouldn’t have been any cracks in the plans for Brown to interject his asshattery into. The problem Azael is desperately trying to distract you from is that the state of Louisiana is almost entirely governed by Brown clones, except that I think Brown is honest. Stupid and foolish, but honest.
Regards,
Ric
Az,
Let’s boil this down to the simplest parts, so that even you might be enlightened. Let me start by quoting you earlier:
Has anyone, ever, said that NO or the state of LA should have been capable of handling this without help? I’ve not seen anyone say the feds had no part in this operation.
Disaster management plans are by nature scaleable. From the simplest little two-car wreck, to the Cat-4 hurricane, it’s all (supposed to be) planned and easily implemented, although not always so easily performed. Yes, including when all of your neighboring assets are wiped off the earth also. That’s where the feds come in, and multi-state responses.
However the incipient stages of every incident are always local. Always. Let me repeat, always. As has been quoted elsewhere, FEMA planners were on site and assets were pre-positioned.
So what’s the problem?
B Moe,
Regarding preparedness for a disaster, yours is the most sensible statement I’ve seen. The Fed help won’t be in position for days at best. State and local help will be a gamble for the first few days.
Uhm Azeal,
Do you really think that your troll droppings make sense to anyone but your self? Since the storm hit New Orleans, the leftie moonbat blogosphere’s entire raison D’etre has been to savage Bush, Republicans, conservatism and anything else they don’t like. Christ that’s obvious to the most casual observer. Do you think your repeated twisting and misrepresentation of fact will change the truth? If so, you’re even dumber and more deluded than I thought you were and that’s going a stretch.
I’m not a Bushie, while I support their foreign policy, I have several disagreements with some of their domestic initiatives. So my motivation isn’t to shill for the republicans. Or the socal conservatives, libertarians or anyone else.
The facts are emerging and left has once again tricked itself into showing what hard hearted and hard headed little shitheels they really are.
Ric, lover the Wagner bit. Still, it must be very frustrating. It seems quite hard to argue that what prevented effective federal response was those pesky state’s rights. Not that I buy that argument, mind you. Kind of seems like the whole “I must yet I cannot” robot logic breakdown common in SciFi.
Patrick, you’re pretty much making my point. Well, except that little caveat at the end, there. I think that’s where the nub of the debate is. And it seems like an incredibly weak argument. Luckily, it’s not just democrats that are raising the questions.
Ric, you wrote:
“Unfortunately Brown’s also a fool who doesn’t realize he’s incompetent, so he started issuing off-plan orders and generally screwing things up, and going on TV to brag about it. The guys in the field are doing what they always do in such situations, which is doing what they’re supposed to do plus the minimum necessary to get around whatever sycophants and commissars the boss has sent.”
Interesting. I’d like to know some day what those “off-plan” orders were because I agree with you that those sort of things screw up the effective measures. What Blanco and Nagin were doing was nothing but “off-plan”.
Interestingly, Ken, Azael et al can’t really deal with this subject because what they think should have happened were those very “off-plan” improvisations.
You’re still avoiding my questions Azael.
Corvan, no. I just don’t answer to demands.