I fully acknowledge that shooting looters is an inappropriately disproportionate response if one views looting as mere larceny. But one doesn’t shoot looters to protect property, one does so to protect order. Somebody is going to suffer unjustly when society breaks down. I don’t understand why […] it preferable for the law-abiding citizens to be the cost-bearers. History has shown repeatedly that the way to stop an anarchic riot is an early display of substantial force.
I haven’t commented on the looting and lawlessness until now (except to say that I have no problem with needy people grabbing perishables like food and water), but the time has come to throw my lot in with Frank, at least on his larger points.
Shots fired at a military helicopter have delayed evacuations from the Superdome; police officers, lacking command and control, are frightened—and, I suspect, many of them have simply decided it safer to blend in with the civilians rather than play Wyatt Earp to a city of desperate people.
I understand that the military is mobilizing and could be sent in to restore order; I also understand the reluctance on the part of the federal government—particularly in a cultural milieu that rewards the most sensational reportage—to risk sending armed troops in to quell rioting, only to find that video of looters being shot dead is being played over and over again on the nightly news—completely out of context and to the strains of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band’s “Battle of New Orleans” while some talking head drones on about how the PATRIOT Act and global warming lead inexorably to this “sorry spectacle for Amerikkka.”
But the Administration cannot worry about such things. The lawful must not be sacrified to the lawless for political expediency. The military needs to enter New Orleans now, and order needs to be restored.
We can worry about the Monday morning quarterbacking from civil libertarians and partisan opportunists later. History will judge the President for what he does now. And what he needs to do is what needs to be done—even if it means Shepard Smith will go blind whacking at his own engorged sanctimony.
(h/t Glenn)
****
update: More background on the looting here and here. See also, Volokh, Althouse, and Peggy Noonan.
Opposing viewpoints here, here, and here.
Follow-up thought: That many progressives I’ve been reading are so willing to advocate for an anarchic condition wherein stronger, better armed, and more ruthless civilians are able to lord it over the weaker victims of Katrina—all for the sake of maintaining their critique of materialism—is, frankly, astounding.
*****
update: Others commenting: Stop the Bleating; Professor Bainbridge, David Kopel, Orin Kerr, Resurrection Song, and LaShawn Barber.
It appears that a sizable national guard presence would be a good thing. Not sure what the delay is all about, frankly.
I noticed yesterday that CNN was obscuring the faces of the looters in the videos they were showing. WTF?
QUAGMIRE ALERT. We already lost New Orleans. Time to bring the troops home. Supporting the troops means bringing them home from the Gulf Coast.
Would YOU go to New Orleans, you chickenhawks??? No doubt Bush lied to bring us to the Gulf Coast to steal their oil. This is PNAC plot by the globalists to fight an illegal war in New Orleans.
Jeff,
I agree wholeheartedly about what the President needs to do.
But, did you really need to add the visual of Shep “whacking at his own engorged sanctimony”? Eww.
If anyone needs me, I’ll be pulling my eyeballs out with a fork and scrubbing my brain with drano and a brillo pad.
Cindy is right. The administration told us that rescuers would be met with wine and roses and instead they are being met with outraged demands for food, water, medicine and shelter. Who are we to impose life on these citizens? How can we put the cost of this on the backs of our children?
Aye. Looting and rioting is only twisting an already staggered supply chain of relief and support. I can totally understand being hungry, homeless, frustrated, exhausted. But when you have no LEGAL means of bettering your position, and doing so relies TOTALLY on outside governement support – the best thing you can do is wait in line. Sorry, but that’s what we call civil order, and when the government is coming to save you, it might mean waiting in line. If you just sit still ong enough, they can help you out, but if you keep fucking shooting at the rescuers, you’re just screwing yourself.
um, fred, the military is not usually known for it’s expediency. at least in my small experience with it.
for example: my spouse has been called up, he’s in southeast OK, not sure what exactly they are going to be doing yet, they will probably have to drive/convoy, whatever they call it, if i recall correctly their vehicles aren’t aloud, or just won’t go over 45 or 55 mph. but before they even do that they have to get all their crap together.
as mr. chertoff has repeated Patience is key in this situation.
I’d say that’s just a matter of time, regardless of what Bush does or doesn’t do about the looting.
TW: justice. If there’s any justice in the world, Shep Smith will be struck dumb as well as blind.
Jeff
I think in this situation Bush is in a Damned if he does or Damned if he doesn’t scenario.
You know no matter what decision he goes forth with in regards to the looting problem, he will be villified by the MSM…..
Where is ST CINDY when you need her…
It shouldn’t be astounding that the same people (i.e., “progressives”) who want us to pull out of Iraq immediately are “so willing to advocate for an anarchic condition wherein stronger, better armed, and more ruthless civilians are able to lord it over the weaker”. That is the exact situation that would ensue if we were to withdraw from Iraq.
Why are the reich-wingers sending troops to the Gulf Coast. Answer: OIL.
Are these chickenhawks going to sign up or send their own children? How many innocent “looters” will die because of Chimpy????
all for the sake of maintaining their critique of materialismâ€â€is, frankly, astounding.
Word.
PS, say word in your head a few times.. what a weird sounding word. WORD.
I’m with you Cindy!!! NO FLOOD FOR OIL!!!
What’s the difference between foraging and looting?
Trying to find baby formula, diapers, bottled water and canned food is foraging.
Carrying away TVs, electronic, toasters and of course all the guns and ammo you can float away on an air mattress is looting.
It’ll be Lord of the Flies soon. And I’m troubled by that, and by the way the city will be viewed by the world.
What strikes me as just plain immoral is the idea that, in all the so-called ‘planning’ preceding this event—decades of it, if we are to believe what the city and state governments say – no one factored in the possibility of anarchy in the absence of the law. The idea of protection against anarchy is so fundamental that its omission boggles the mind. Up there with saving livee is preserving some type of order.
In fact, the level of stupidity now being demonstrated in the way this is being handled is enough to take your breath away. I can forgive them to a degree because they’re in shock. But they’ve had decades—decades—to plan. What the fuck have they been doing all this time?
And I’m extremely angry to see that the cologne-soaked, wavy-haired anchormen evidentally have no problem whatever getting in and out of the city. But you can’t get a drop of potable water or a cracker in there to save your life. I wonder if they’re sharing any of the fresh water they undoubtedly have? Or are they just documenting events?
Oh, and that governor is ‘way out of her depth.
tw: had. I’ve fucking had it.
I agree that people looting stores for TV’s and whatnot are one thing and people getting a loaf of bread for their kids is another. How easy is it going to be for an 18 year old fresh out of boot to determine the difference though?
Couple problems those far away may not realize. The people down there are hungry and don’t have water to drink. There are dead bodies and feces floating around in the water they’re standing in with their kids. They are being told to leave but not being told how to leave or where to go and they feel they are trapped and hopeless and their kids are hungry. They’ve been in that situation all week.
Even those that had cars and evacuated, only to run out of money by now, are being turned away at the Astrodome here in Houston because they aren’t ready for them and the dome is supposedly reserved for the folks in the Superdome that don’t have cars. What are they supposed to do if they are out of money and can’t go home?
Its just a nasty situation. I have no idea why FEMA wasn’t better prepared for this sort of disaster. Why didn’t they commandeer buses, hotel rooms and food supplies days ago for these people? They’re camped out in the streets of Houston right now.
What they’re supposed to fucking do, is wait. They’re not supposed to kill eachother, they’re not supposed to attack recuers. They’re supposed to uphold a little civil order and wait. We’re sorry FEMA can’t fucking overnight a McDonald’s store into the Superdome parking lot, it’s just a little beyond their scope. That’s why this is called a disaster. Help will come, it’s on its way, those people just need to hang on instead of coming completely unhinged.
Utter breakdown of civilization.
That’s not my take on what is happening, mind you–that’s what led to what is happening.
Martial law needs to be declared in every parish in Louisiana hit by Katrina, and in every county in Mississippi and Alabama, as well. Looters should be shot on sight, regardless of what they are taking. Furthermore, their bodies should be marked to prominently read “looter” and left for others to see.
I don’t care if they’re breaking in to steal food and water. Breaking down doors of places that have needed supplies is something that only emergency management officials should be doing, in order to rightly distribute these things.
Looting has been an increasing problem in every disaster in recent memory. It’s a major reason why more people don’t evacuate prior to such a catastrophic event as Katrina. It’s why people try to rush back in to salvage personal items, further hindering search and rescue efforts.
Three incidents after which these procedures were used would pretty much stop the rioting/looting trend, I think.
Has anybody seen Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton lately?
Didn’t think so.
Oops, I forgot. Al is doing some really important work with Cindy Sheehan.
Jeff, I’m 100% with you on this one. The sad part about those opposing the idea of shooting looters is that is pretty much a “No Duh”.
Turing: wrong, as in you leftist idiots are dead wrong.
I agree with Cindy too, its obvious that the people of New Orleans don’t want us in there, how many of our poor children in uniform have to die? How mant members of the North Dakota national guard signed up to keep oil flowing in the south? Those poeple have been without stability and democracy far too long to have us impose it on them.
“Greeted with flowers” indeed.
“Well, don’t shoot me! I don’t even own a lute!”
How easy is it going to be for an 18 year old fresh out of boot to determine the difference though?
New troops don’t come fresh out of boot and dropped into duty. All are trained for their jobs–from infantryman to air traffic controller. Trained, as in sent to school to learn to determine the difference between a forager and a looter and to learnmany other things.
TW: ground; as in some people are on shaky ground as far as their knowledge of the military is concerned.
I expect the footage of the first looter shot will be looped to Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.
Tin Soldiers and Nixon’s coming, baby.
I’m sensing that Billy Jack might soon be needed in the Big Easy.
I’m not astounded.
On the other hand, if the feces ever really hits the fan here in Chicago, and it becomes Lord of the Flies time, I know which houses to hit for my various needs; you know, the ones with the “No Blood for Oil” and “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” signs in their front windows. I’m sure they won’t mind.
You don’t turn a city the size of Nawlins over to the mob – you’ll never get it back. So unless you want the Big Easy to become something out of a distopian novel, start shooting now. Or start building a wall around the place and put out a call for Snake Pliskin….
Put a cat 4/5 hurricane in an area governed by incompetant city and state leadership plus decades of unprepared planning together with a low ratio of police to citizens spells disaster.
After decades of forewarning one would have thought city and state leadership would have used all that time to do more than rely on a levee built far too small to handle a cat 4/5 hurricane, at the very least have a back-up system in place. The city’s evacuation plan was utterly incredulous.
Part (not all), of the problem in New Orleans is the culture of entitlement that has been perpetuated for years in that city. The poor have become completely dependent on the government to take care of them. Of course they are going to sit around on their welfare fed fat asses and DEMAND that the government save them! They have NEVER had to take personal responsibility for their own well-being.
Another problem is pervasive level of corruption in the entire state, from the governon down to the garbage man, especially the police department. Competence has never been considered in the decision of who to vote for. Whoever promises the most treasure from the public trough gets the votes.
TW: programs. Damn this is TW thing is scary. The government programs to “save” the poor, have doomed them to this hell.
Oh please, the city shouldn’t bear the brunt of the fault here – that should rest solely with the people who ignored the threat. It was on the news days ahead of time that a huge category 4 storm was barreling their way, and that it was strengthening. I’m sorry, but if someone told me a 350 mile wide bull was going to strike within 50 miles of my china shop, I’d have my happy ass the hell out of there. Obviously, a good couple hundred thousand people didn’t have the same idea. Bad decisions.
shank, I’m with you on that. I thought about that when FoxNews ran a segment featuring a guy ranting about “somebody needs to tell folks what to do” or something like that. I believe they were told about 48 hours in advance what to do. Don’t chalk it up to poverty, etc., either–all they had to do was to get to a neighborhood bus stop for a ride to the Superdome. I sincerely wonder whether the looting opportunity kept many there.
There’s no reason for someone to die in a hurricane. Tornadoes strike with (maybe) 10-15 minutes warning–too little time to do anything but take cover. Earthquakes offer no advance warning whatsoever. However, if you’re standing in the middle of the road and someone tells you that in 48 hours a car is going to come down the road and hit you, it ain’t the car’s fault you got run over.
I feel the most sympathy for the people who got out and lost everything. I have a hard time feeling any sympathy at all for someone who obviously wants everything–including the salvage of their sorry hides–given to them.
Rather than shooting looters, the only humane response is to ask them politely to stop. If that fails, the peace officer should be allowed to utter sternly, “Say, put that down!” Last resort: “I mean it!!” Order restored.
Colussus: My bet is on Young alone:
“Look out Ma,
there’s a white boat comin’ up the river…”
How’s Guardian, BTW?
SB: square
more like block, daddy-o.
Every super far-left anarchist probably has a woodrow at this point.
Riots in the streets will encourage the leftists in the rhetoric in their efforts to stop the http://www.sf911truth.org/Art Contest2/SFContest/WeTheSheepHenry.html. (See the <a href=”http://www.sf911truth.org/Art Contest2/SFContest/1ChuckBowden.html” target=”_blank”>winning entry</a>. – barf alert via TigerHawk)
The eco-terrorists have been waging a long-term strategic campaign against “big oil”, thus starving the war-mongering, fascist, capitalistic engine of the Corporate. After preventing meaningful capital investment in domestic oil exploration, production and refining capacity, Katrina represents their equivalent of the B-17’s and B-24’s reaching Ploesti.
Now the rest of the left can continue the insurgency against the doomed Corporate(re: the system, re: the Man, re: the MATRIX). And just like Marx predicted and Lenin encouraged, and replace it with their view of the utopian society where everyone is entitled to free Starbucks.
TW: freedom. Let’s pray that those stranded in NO get some soon.
New Orleans has had a serious crime problem for years, I have had several friends move down there and literally be beaten out by thugs. Now you are just seeing it more clearly. I can’t figure wtf Houston is thinking by inviting them there. Watch crime in that fair city skyrocket in the next few months.
As for Fema relief, how goddam stupid and/or incompetent do you have to be to need more than 36hrs to lay up a couple days worth of food and water? They were too poor to buy a big jar of peanut butter and some saltines? Gimme a damn break.
Paragraph two from previous post.
Riots in the streets will encourage the leftists in the rhetoric in their efforts to stop the <a href=”http://www.sf911truth.org/Art Contest2/SFContest/WeTheSheepHenry.html” target=”_blank”>Corporate American Country</a>. (See the <a href=”http://www.sf911truth.org/Art Contest2/SFContest/1ChuckBowden.html” target=”_blank”>winning entry</a>. – barf alert – via TigerHawk)
One more time w/o http://
Riots in the streets will encourage the leftists in the rhetoric in their efforts to stop the”Corporate American Countryâ€Â. (See the winning entry. – barf alert)
The urban centers of our cities are populated by utter trash today. Its not poverty and its not race – you are seeing nothing like this among the rural poor in Louisiana and Mississippi. There is something fetid at the centers of our cities.
When Lileks or one of those other Minnesota guys posts a sentence-by-sentence rebuttal to Atrios, will that be a Looter Fisk?
While we are on the subject of horrible puns, I would like to point out the city had plenty of warning and did nothing, which just goes to show if you live in denial, you might wind up in de Mississippi.
I’m proud of you, Paul and B Moe. I’m a dedicated punster, and you made me cringe.
*ahem* Civil libertarian checking in all in favor of killing the opportunistic thieving thugs.
A half dozen Marine sniper teams, with NV/IR gear, infiltrated into the city at night would tamp this down VERY quickly.
Presuming of course they were actually given the green light to erase the problems without a lot of whiny recriminations after the fact because a few skulls exploded in a pink fog…
Single quotes, phresh
As for Fema relief, how goddam stupid and/or incompetent do you have to be to need more than 36hrs to lay up a couple days worth of food and water?
What exactly should FEMA have done?
There was plenty of food in NOLA, as there is in every city. The problem is that poor people didn’t keep a week’s worth in their house, the flood destroyed much, and once looting starts an accelerated “tragedy of the commons” means it will all go fast (and be inequitably distributed).
The problem is getting in new supplies, because:
1) almost all roads are out.
2) helicopters are few in number, have short linger times and great logistical needs (fuel, mechanics).
3) boats are slow, especially in “snaggy” terrian.
4) most helicopters and boats must come from afar: prepositioned boats and helicopters were mostly destroyed (as should be expected).
The way to have prevented this problem was to order evacuation 48 hours before the hurricane, and have a plan involving busses for all the poor people without cars. Of course, any such policy would also have false alarms. I doubt more than one unnecessary evacuation of a major city could occur before everyone decided to ignore it, and sue or vote out the offending politicians.
I just scanned through the comments so pardon me if I repeat something already stated.
A martial response is probably called for, but the way it’s done will probably be wrong. Why? Because Bush, like so many repubs & damned near all dems refuse to even think about using the one resource that would be best suited for this type of thing – that’d be calling up the militia. & no; I don’t mean just the National Guard.
The one most counter-productive thing would be to impose martial law. Not because severe responses aren’t necessitated, but because invariably in every states’ martial law wording it claims the authority to control, confiscate & otherwise deny people arms. Louisina lacks a “martial law” provision per se, but from what I understand the governors emergency powers can be used to create the situation de facto. & depriving the people there of arms would likely be high on their list of things to do. That’d render the good guys defenseless & the bad guys superior (much like in DC or NYC or Chicago).
Course the long temr solution would be for government to stop teaching that government is the answer. Obviously it’s not. Never has been. It can be a part of the answer but defense of self & state is a personal responsibility that can never truly be abrogated. Course to teach that would defuze that whole notion of needing a big government for certain things which is why it won’t come up seriously except amongst us gun nuts.
& stealing electronics – I can see it being justified to prevent that with force. Stealing food or water or arms from an individual I can understand that being repelled with force. But stealing arms from say wal-mart? Look, I view all looting as theft but I can see some justification for stealing food from a store when you’re in a crisis. But that won’t do you a bit of good if you have no way to KEEP the food you just grabbed from the handy mart. Couple that with rapists & various other thugs & I’d say that stealing arms from a non-person wouldn’t be a good reason to hold someone in contempt. If I was defensless Wal-Mart’s gun rack would be the first place I’d go if an “improvised shopping spree” were necessary for my survival. Course the real answer would have been for everyone to acquire arms before the crisis as well as learning how to safely & effectively use them, but that’s acedemic at this point.
& the Superdome? Forfeiting arms was the price of admission. Hence a lot of attacks, rapes, assaults, etc.. occurred in there. I don’t think I’ll ever be so poor or desperate that I’d rather sit defensless amongst a large crowd than take my chances under my own volition. So I don’t see that as an effective argument that even the poor folks had it coming. I’ve lived on the coast when storms rolled through & evacuation is not always as cut & dried as you think, especially if resources are strained.
One last thing – when I was on the coast I usually got the hell out if a storm was coming. Many of my friends who owned property didn’t simply cause they didn’t want to be let back in 4 days after a storm to find that what mother nature left the looters didn’t. I can sympathize with those that stayed for those reasons. I can also sympathize with those that left. Netiehr deserve condemnation when thre are so many “for profit” looters & assorted miscreants running wild.