4pm EST.
My worry, and it’s a legitimate one — though it may seem counterintuitive — is that Lindsey Graham, a target for a TEA Party challenge in 2014, has already come out against the amendment after having voted to help bring it to the floor. This is political theater, with the difference today being that with more people focused on how national party politics works, less of us are likely to be fooled by purely political animals like the senior Senator Graham who play the system to give themselves cover during re-election campaigns.
The big vote on Manchin-Toomey was the vote to proceed. Sixteen Republicans broke ranks and voted with Democrats to make sure the amendment was brought up “for debate” and an “up or down vote,” as if it is the job of the Senate to amend an amendment to the Bill of Rights without going through state ratification.
When Senators like Graham and Burr announce that, after having voted to bring the measure to the floor that they are now unlikely to support the measure, I worry very seriously that what’s happening is, these conniving creatures know that the Democrats have the necessary votes to pass the legislation, allowing them to vote against the measure and take that vote back to their constituencies in what are likely to be tough races.
And they will be able to do this because enough safe Republicans will vote with the Democrats on this measure, then defeat the supposedly more onerous bans on “assault weapons” and “high capacity magazines” — after which they’ll return home and say they voted for a “common sense, bipartisan” amendment meant to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, while refusing to vote for any bans on specific weapons or magazines.
They can then point to CCRKBA and note that even the “second-largest pro-Second Amendment organization in the country” supported the measure, and that, if anything, what they’ve done is increase gun owners rights.
When the poison pills and vague language in the Toomey Manchin amendment is ready to be exploited, they’ll wring their hands and pretend that the left is overstepping the intention of the law — then fundraise on the need to stop Democrats from taking away second amendment rights.
And the GOP cheerleaders will throw money at them.
This is how the game is played. And since third parties are for those stuck in their teens, there’s really nothing we can do about it. Except sit back and take it and then pretend we’ve won something.
Such is the state of a one-party statist system masquerading as a two party system adversarial one.
Of course, I’m open to being pleasantly surprised — and there are rumblings that the amendment will go down to defeat. Whether Reid knows this in advance and is able to shield a few phony “blue dog Dems” as a result remains to be seen.
Meghan’s coward daddy will vote for it for sure cause of it involves curtailing freedom.
#theydidsomethingtohisbrain
The prevailing opinion seems to be that it’s going down.
Let’s hope, Pablo.
The Second Amendment Foundation / CCRKBA will be hardest hit. Aside from Holder, I mean.
Gotta concur with Pablo on this one. If this bill goes down, then red state Dems who voted for it go down as well, and the senate MAY change hands.
If course, I may be being optimistic.
That’s what we all thought when SCOTUS considered McCain-Feingold and ObamaCare, and when the voters considered Obama’s re-election.
Gee, maybe we could support that TEA Party primary challenge against Lindsey Grahamnesty and the other 15 RINO fucks who initially voted for this.
Or, we could just go get super stoned and vote Libertarian, dude!
Being a dick doesn’t convince many people of the righteousness of your cause.
Being a dick doesn’t convince many people of the righteousness of your cause.
Moments like these require holding up the proverbial mirror: “And since third parties are for those stuck in their teens, there’s really nothing we can do about it. Except sit back and take it and then pretend we’ve won something.”
If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.
Graham is in an open primary state. Probably have a better chance of beating him in the primary with a pro-decriminalization libertarian.
If you are in favor of voting for the better candidates and not just going rote team R, why would you dismiss libertarians?
Never mind. I don’t really much care.
Why would I need a mirror? To borrow from Mike Damone, I know what I look like.
And unsurprisingly, I meant what I said.
“Curmudgeon says April 17, 2013 at 10:12 am
Gee, maybe we could support that TEA Party primary challenge against Lindsey Grahamnesty and the other 15 RINO fucks who initially voted for this.
Or, we could just go get super stoned and vote Libertarian, dude!”
Wow. A capital L and everything. You sure got us pegged. 420 n’ stuff. Ron Paul. Etc.
As regards Sen. Graham’s future prospects, I wonder about former Sen. Demint, an ardent Tea Party supporter, and Sen. Scott, also an evident Tea Party supporter. Demint, in part, may well have had in mind opposition to the likes of Sen. Graham when he stepped away from the confines of the ChummyClub, thinking himself thereby freer to mount direct opposition to his former colleague. Sen. Scott may in turn find himself persuaded not to go the way of former Sen. Santorum who chose to support Arlen Spector when push came to shove and learned to rue the day.
Graham is in an open primary state. Probably have a better chance of beating him in the primary with a pro-decriminalization libertarian.
Not if the TEA party movement isn’t on board. And this is SC, not CO or CA.
Otherwise, you are just splitting the opposition to Lindsey Grahamnesty rather than uniting it around one counter-candidate.
Which is why I tend to loathe “open” or “jungle” primaries. As the Edwin Edwards using David Duke to stop Buddy Roemer in Louisiana fiasco showed, it is too easy for sleazy entrenched incumbents to manipulate the system in order to go whiz in the opposition’s voting pool.
If you are in favor of voting for the better candidates and not just going rote team R, why would you dismiss libertarians?
Gee, because all of the ones I have met are self-indulgent potheads?
Never mind. I don’t really much care.
Of course you don’t.
For someone who mocks people who are not “Winning!” you sure seem to not want to win, either.
Wow. A capital L and everything. You sure got us pegged. 420 n’ stuff. Ron Paul. Etc.
Sorry if the truth hurts.
Sure. But why stop there? If Grahamnesty survives a primary challenge, do you let it go at that? Or do you take the opportunity to vote against him again in the general?
So Yankees fans would be all cool if the Astros’ lineup came in and put on the pinstripes?
Hey, the players are wearing the right jerseys so let’s cheer them on!
My understanding was that they needed to pass the 60 vote threshold another time to actually have a vote. That is, there is a 60 vote threshold to bring the bill to the floor for debate, and another 60 vote threshold to end debate and bring the bill up for a vote. It sounds like several of the Rs who let the bill pass the first 60 vote threshold are switching their votes on the second.
Yeah, maybe. However, they would have done a much better service by blocking the bill from the beginning. Then again, they don’t really serve their constituents, just themselves.
Sure. But why stop there? If Grahamnesty survives a primary challenge, do you let it go at that? Or do you take the opportunity to vote against him again in the general?
RINO vs. Commiecrat? Well, I certainly won’t volunteer time and money for the RINO, but damage control is reality. Sorry.
I would vote for a “Boll Weevil” or “Blue Dog”, but those died out with Sam Nunn and Zell Miller.
I suppose you *could* go 3rd party if you are not in a jungle / open primary state.
It sounds like several of the Rs who let the bill pass the first 60 vote threshold are switching their votes on the second.
When they feel the heat, they see the light….
If you intend to change the Republican Party from within itself Curmudgeon, I can only wish you well, despite that I don’t happen to think that path will be productive in the near term. Thing is, it must change, whether internally or whether to be left behind through external efforts. Either way, the status quo won’t do.
If you intend to change the Republican Party from within itself Curmudgeon, I can only wish you well
Thanks. It’s cool, I can agree to disagree. And it does seem futile at times. But I’ll be damned if I fall for another Cult Of Personality, or intellectual circle jerk in meetings with people who can’t even get the local county supe or city councilman elected.
– If Reid has the slightest inkling that the bill will go down, he’ll find some excuse to delay for rewrites and to arm twist. It his standard MO.
– Truth be told, I’m not at all impressed with the seriousness of this gun control bullshit. They can pass all the illegal laws they want to. If they can’t pass Constitutional muster or have any chance of serious enforcement, then they don’t mean squat. They’ll just wear themselves out running in circles.
– In the mean time, while all this crap continues in DC, our enemies are knocking on the door. Bumblefuck, and the existing congress and SC, represent exactly the sort of ineffective, all hat no cattle, idiotic no leadership they’ve been waiting for.
– That, and the Golden Erkel “Gets Mail”. (Cue angelic chorus ending with a shelf of pressure cooker pots crashing to the floor at WalMarts.)
Who has suggested joining a Cult of Personality? I’ve been reading this blog for over seven years and have never seen that position advocated. Just because you fell for Ross Perot and his poster boards doesn’t mean the rest of us did.
So we shouldn’t look at new options, because that would give us Lindsay Graham. Instead, we should stick with the current system, which gave us…Lindsay Graham.
Allrighty then.
Lindsey. Durr.
The nice thing about the Tea Party? It’s a political movement, not a party. It’s adherents and sympathizers can internally and externally at the same time.
As to the RINO versus commiecrat conundrum, the RINOs have already made it abundantly clear they’d rather see a commiecrat elected than win with the wrong sort of conservative Republican. So I intend to see they get their way.
Meaning I won’t vote for the wrong sort of Republican either, just to preserve an illusion of unity.
Lindsay/Lindsey is to Frances/Francis. The first feminine, the second masculine.
The Marian/Marion one always throws me, though.
And who decides what constituttes Constitutional muster, BBH?
Librarian, SwampFox.
– The God they don’t believe in better help the Democrats and Rino’s if people ever start paying attention.
Not always. I know at least two female Lindseys.
Who has suggested joining a Cult of Personality? I’ve been reading this blog for over seven years and have never seen that position advocated. Just because you fell for Ross Perot and his poster boards doesn’t mean the rest of us did.
Sigh. Miss the point if you insist. The history of 3rd parties that had even a wee bit of success is that they have been Cults of Personality. Teddy Roosevelt, George Wallace, Ross Perot, etc.
And who decides what constitutes Constitutional muster, BBH?
– The SC can’t ignore their duties forever. They’re getting away with it for now because of the Progressive cover. Once that ends there’s going to be a reckoning.
” The history of 3rd parties that had even a wee bit of success ”
I know I have a hard time deciding between Whig, Democratic-Republican, or Federalist, for sure.
Yet this decisive urge for change arises from political philosophical premises, not from some personality on offer. Which may be why people are puzzled when personality non sequiturs are posed.
My read on the situation is that one, the complaints are coming in, and two, they know they aren’t going to get a quick win out of the House of Representatives.
Boehner has publicly stated that the bill will get the full treatment, going to the appropriate committees, getting amended, taking at least a year…
Into the next elections.
So why risk it?
An arrest in the bombing has been made. See Drudge.
Sigh. Miss the point if you insist.
Hardly, son. I am asking you to unpack your insistence that by not voting for Candidate R, we are somehow betraying a noble cause and embracing a cult of personality. I am merely using your own words to ask a question. A question you are side-stepping by sighing and acting as if I am thick-headed. You have also given a wrong answer on the success of third parties as was pointed out by SBP.
I think your choice was Whig, Democrat, Free-Soil and Constitutional-Union.
Interestingly, I think you can make the case that the Whig party was also a cult-of-personality party; although in their case, they reviled the personality around whom they coalesced.
Now Glenn is reporting that NBC said there’s been no arrest.
Remember back in the old days when journos didn’t think “Some dude tweeted something” was good sourcing?
Reynolds linked to a WaPo article from Jen Rubin on the gun control issue. The comments are a good example of what we’re up against- angry people who call guns “death machines” and want all guns banned. That’s the constitutency of the people we’re fighting back against. Its why we can’t give an inch.
Hardly, son. I am asking you to unpack your insistence that by not voting for Candidate R, we are somehow betraying a noble cause and embracing a cult of personality.
Wow! Something I never stated, let alone thought! But keep on plugging away!
I am merely using your own words to ask a question. A question you are side-stepping by sighing and acting as if I am thick-headed. You have also given a wrong answer on the success of third parties as was pointed out by SBP.
You want to claim that the Republicans were a 3rd Party, as opposed to being #2 from the moment they started, after the Whigs fell apart? Yawn. And unfortunately, neither of the two parties are teetering on the brink of collapse.
But even if you really want to go back to the 19th century, the facts remain. The US electoral system basically enforces two parties. And thank goodness, I might add, as Anglospheric parliamentary systems tend to collapse the executive and the legislature, and Weimar / Italian Republics are just disasters.
If the GOP isn’t teetering yet it’s only because the RNC hasn’t shoved hard enough.
I realize I sided with Curmudgeon earlier this week. I’d like to clarify that while I’m sympathetic with his frustration and despair at building a functional third party, I don’t sympathize with his instinct to jump into a thread and be an insulting prick.
Word to the wise: you get support by promoting the wisdom of your side, not by insulting those you would recruit as allies.
If the GOP isn’t teetering yet it’s only because the RNC hasn’t shoved hard enough.
And because they have people like Curmudgeon running around telling everybody not to “waste” their votes. As the man says: no third party can be viable until an established party implodes, but Heaven forfend you encourage or allow people to abandon a dysfunctional party to make room for meaningful reform.
I realize I sided with Curmudgeon earlier this week. I’d like to clarify that while I’m sympathetic with his frustration and despair at building a functional third party, I don’t sympathize with his instinct to jump into a thread and be an insulting prick.
Word to the wise: you get support by promoting the wisdom of your side, not by insulting those you would recruit as allies.
Time to hold up that mirror again.
I am reminded of Lindsay Grahamnesty’s pithy remark that “We’re (RINOs) going to tell the bigots (real Republicans) to shut up…”
I’m not taking it from the GOP establishment, why should I take it here?
– “Suspect expected to appear in FED court this afternoon.”
– “Presser at 5pm.”
– CBS: “Al Qaida “struggling” to identify bomber. “think it was them…hope it was them.”
– NBC: “No arrest.”
ps -A | grep ica
And you agree with Grahamnesty? About the bigots?
Curmudgeon says April 17, 2013 at 12:16 pm
And unfortunately, neither of the two parties are teetering on the brink of collapse.
Perhaps not collapse, but “in danger of becoming a regional party” (a phrase the Cult of Triangulation GOP likes to use to beat social conservatives and Constitutionalists over the head until they get in line) doesn’t strike me as a healthy or long sustainable situation. There is simply too much discontent with party leadership for this state of affairs to continue.
If history is any guide, if Republicans lose any realistic chance of fielding a winning Presidential candidate (which looks like it may have already happened), something else will fill that void, and then we almost certainly won’t have Republicans anymore.
Assuming of course that there is a country left that even bothers with elections at that point.
Curmudgeon, your opening gambit was: “Or, we could just go get super stoned and vote Libertarian, dude!” When you know full well that there’s a variety of perspectives among the commentariat here, and that the host’s own views have been evolving in recent years, it takes a conscious decision to come out pissing on everybody’s heads like that.
If that’s not jumping into a thread just to be a gigantic douche, then what is?
. . . but Heaven forfend you encourage or allow people to abandon a dysfunctional party to make room for meaningful reform.
Tut, tut, Squid. Wouldn’t be prudent.
You could simply stop reading here. As I said before, being a dick won’t help you sell your position, and doubling down on dickitude doesn’t help either.
CCRKBA pulls support for Manchin-Toomey.
*If history is any guide, if Republicans lose any realistic chance of fielding a winning Presidential candidate (which looks like it may have already happened), *
I think we have to see who they field in 2016 before coming to that conclusion. I don’t disagree with you that the last two elections have had questionable candidates- I couldn’t stand McCain, because I knew what he was (a giant squish- maverick my ass) and as much as I liked Romney, the man, the press had a field day with his money (amazing how John Kerry gets a pass on that) and portraying him as an out of touch rich white man. If Romney hadn’t implemented Romneycare in his state, he could have used Obamacare to bludgeon Obama in the debates, but unfortunately, that line of attack (which I believed would have worked, if half the campaign was about getting rid of Obamacare) was not available to him.
My fear is Rubio, the expected candidate, is completely shooting himself in the foot/heart/head with all of this immigration stuff and is actively turning away conservative voters, who are not interested in any immigration “reform” that will end up adding massive amounts of democratic voters to the voting rolls (Not sure why Rubio doesn’t get that).
I suddenly realized that the thing that scares me about this gun-grabbing legislation is that I was pretty sure that Obamacare wouldn’t pass either.
Is this dead? I certainly hope so but I feel I’ve been too optimistic in the past. Heck, I’m surprised that they’re re-embracing this old electoral danger once more in the first place.
I think Rubio is headed towards establishment GOP land.
“Curmudgeon says April 17, 2013 at 10:59 am
Wow. A capital L and everything. You sure got us pegged. 420 n’ stuff. Ron Paul. Etc.
Sorry if the truth hurts.”
Sorry that your bullshit smells.
“Wow! Something I never stated, let alone thought!”
No, but we totally all said get stoned and vote Libertarian right? Oh wait no. That was YOU.
“cranky-d says April 17, 2013 at 1:08 pm
I think Rubio is headed towards establishment GOP land.”
It worked out so well for Crist.
“Assuming of course that there is a country left that even bothers with elections at that point.”
You can blame the GOP for that. Their aisle crossing nonsense is what has 10% or more of their natural voters staying home.
– FED buildings evacuated and under lockdown in Boston.
– Suspect identified and arrest imminent.
– Presser still on for 5pm.
So ricin huh? That’s the castor bean extract stuff?
“You want to claim that the Republicans”
The Republicans are not the only successful new party in the United States.
There have been presidents of the following parties:
Republican
Democratic
Democratic-Republican
Whig
National Republican
Independent
National Union (actually just the current Republicans under another name).
Federalist
There have been governors from the following parties:
Democratic
Republican
Independent
Reform
Connecticut Party
Alaskan Independence Party
Farmer-Labor
Prohibitionist
Progressive
Silver Party
Populist
Farmer’s Alliance
Readjuster
There have been many third-party Senators and Representatives — 28 Senators and 111 Representatives..
But hey, why “waste your vote”?
Curmudgeon, your opening gambit was: “Or, we could just go get super stoned and vote Libertarian, dude!” When you know full well that there’s a variety of perspectives among the commentariat here, and that the host’s own views have been evolving in recent years, it takes a conscious decision to come out pissing on everybody’s heads like that.
If that’s not jumping into a thread just to be a gigantic douche, then what is?
Holding up that mirror again….
And since third parties are for those stuck in their teens, there’s really nothing we can do about it. Except sit back and take it and then pretend we’ve won something.
It’s Jeff’s blog; he can do what he wants. But be honest about who shot first.
If Romney hadn’t implemented Romneycare in his state, he could have used Obamacare to bludgeon Obama in the debates, but unfortunately, that line of attack (which I believed would have worked, if half the campaign was about getting rid of Obamacare) was not available to him.
At the time, many of us suspected that Romney was christened “Inevitable” largely because it would take OCare off the table. Because the Establishment GOP, for all the noises they like to make in their fundraising efforts, isn’t really upset that they’ll have this gigantic new weapon to play with once they get one of their staunch mavericks elected. Of course, once the Establishment had successfully marginalized every actual conservative in the race, we were all expected to shut up and show up.
How well did that work out, again?
“Holding up that mirror again….”
Oh? So that somehow excuses your lame brainless Libertarian Pot smoker horseshit?
Holding up that mirror again….
Yes, I’m holding up that mirror, just like you suggested. Or are you saying that I have to let you piss all over my friends and then not call you out for it, just because we happen to share frustrations with third-party cat-herding?
You jumped in here looking for a fight. There’s really no other explanation for your opening comment. Talking about your fucking mirror ain’t gonna change the fact that you’re the one who opened hostilities.
Frankly, I’ve wasted time with a lot of people in third-party circle jerks who were less annoying pricks than you’re turning out to be.
Curmudgeon, maybe you need to go find your self a nice H. L. Mencken quoting Ewok to staunch and snark around with. If we won’t buy what you’re selling I’m sure you can save him at least. And if that doesn’t work out, there is always Hot Air.
All right. I apologize. I really shouldn’t fight with people I am probably in 99.9% agreement with.
CCRKBA pulls support for Manchin-Toomey.
They issued this breaking newsflash:
You know, I would have thought his 1994 co-authoring (with DiFIi) of the assault weapons ban, might have been suggestive of said extremest views.
From the NYT 9 months ago via Weasel Zippers.
go team r
link
FBI and BPD both confirm not suspect in custody, no arrest(s) made, et cetera.
I think they have someone or some someones in custody or at least under the hot lights. I’m with you, BBH.
OTish: The letter-bomber is bipartisan in his hateyness, but is getting no press due to the bomber(s).
Sometimes I almost think the whole Congress is being secretly fed something that stupids them up and leaves them confused and open to suggestion yet paranoid of outsiders.
Sure I know they lie about who they are and what they think to get into office but at times it feels like they undergo an unnatural level of personality change in a very brief period of time. It’s creepy. It makes me wonder if body snatcher pods aren’t real.
They’re like losing coaches and managers in national sports, palaeo. They spend season after season making stupid calls and trades, playing worn out players or rookies in pivotal positions and then getting fired only to be picked up by a different franchise and start the carnage all over again.
I blame us for not putting a stop to the nonsense on the rink/field/court/diamond and on Capitol Hill.
It makes me wonder if body snatcher pods aren’t real.
– They’ve all been accounted for in a back lot at Universal studios in Burbank.
– More bomb threats Boston.
Is somebody blocking you from making an ass of yourself?
Time to turn that mirror on yourself, I think.
Yup, you got me pegged. I’m a pothead who doesn’t care about winning and just likes to beat on establishment humpers for kicks.
Can’t argue with that.
Incidentally, it’s easier to get the TEA Party on board for libertarians than it is for RINOs. Which is how it should be.
– Congress watchers reporting only 32 votes “for” at last check.
– FBI/Boston PD presser at 5pm still on.(That is if they can find a building not under code red.)
Gun bill fails.
– 5pm Presser postponed until further notice.
I suspect that once Reid knew he could only get 59 he let the vulnerable “blue dogs” to vote no.
– Best guess, based on fragments of info from multiple sources: They have made a tentative ID of a suspect based on the massive amount of video/photo’s available from the marathon, and are attempting to effect an arrest prior to the presser.
This story seems to confirm your “best guess” BBH.
“historic” devastating blow.
From the comments in your link, geoff.
One assumes this suspect is not flapping in the breeze right now, or these press reports are doing nothing but telling the guy to run and hide. Which, given the general intelligence level of the MSM, wouldn’t surprise me.
My 3:00 was about the gun bill failing.
Pat Toomey should be ashamed to find himself voting the same way as McCain, Collins, and Kirk. But I don’t suppose he is.
Theory: During the last days of his Senatorial career, after having lost the D primary in PA, Senator Arlen ‘asshole’ Specter found an old gypsy woman and paid her to put a curse on the chair, such that anyone who sat in it would slow turn into a moderate rinocrat over time.
Then she got over-ambitious, and did the same to every other seat on the R side of the senate. Just to be safe.
also from the comments in geoff’s link…
o_O
I try to stay away from comments at MSM blog sites.
I think the old hands invite the new senators into the cloak room on an ill-omened night for some shits and giggles with a Ouija board.
We need to exorcise the snarlin’ Arlen right out of poor Pat.
who could see this coming?
Senator to Introduce Legislation Requiring Background Checks for Sale of Explosive Powder
I thought Lautenberg was at death’s door.
It’s the Senate. Remember that Ouija board?
“Look, we just want universal background checks on something, damnit! Is that too much to ask?”
– Here is a live video/audio WBZ, the Boston CBS affiliate.
We need to exorcise the snarlin’ Arlen right out of poor Pat.
What rank was Toomey when he got out of the service? He may have Colin Powell disease.
“I mean, all that talk about ‘universal background checks’ over the past few weeks has gotten my 90-year-old blood moving in ways it hasn’t since that hot Angela Lansbury used to be on the TV, and you can’t just leave an old man hanging, if you know what I mean…”
go for “white privilege” sirota pic
Toomey-Manchin Fails on Cloture Vote, 54-46; Four Democrats Vote for Filibuster
CBS News has learned that previously unknown whistleblowers on #Benghazi are now speaking to Congressional investigators.