If they can’t beat you at the ballot box they plan on disenfranchising you through political activists appointed to the courts — partisan plants suckled on illegitimate interpretative maneuvers who will declare it a “substantial impairment of the right to vote” to acquire a photo, then turn around and declare it perfectly acceptable that you be taxed for not carrying health insurance.
Until we start demanding that legitimate and duly passed law be followed, we should resign ourselves to living under an ever-constricting left wing tyranny. The courts are just another institution progressives have usurped, using judicial fiat or oligarchy to make sure voters don’t get the important things wrong.
When the law can’t be counted on to serve us equally or protect the role granted us to fashion laws meant to protect our liberties from an ever-expanding statist agenda, the law ceases to be legitimate. At which point we are living under a kind of disguised police state wearing but the skimpiest trappings of a republic.
Either we fight back and make the changes that need to be made or we lose our freedoms. That’s the choice. Stark, I know. But it is what it is.
(h/t nr)
KDKA’s Jon Delano also asked Romney about Pennsylvania’s controversial photo ID voter law.
Delano: “Would it bother you if three quarters of a million Pennsylvanians could not vote because of this photo ID?”
Romney: “I’d be very surprised if people who want to vote who are legitimate voters, would not have the capacity to vote. As a matter of fact, I understand to attend a Barack Obama fundraiser, you have to show a picture ID, so there are a lot of things in America that require an ID and I haven’t seen Pennsylvania’s law, but I hope there’s a provision that makes it easy for people to get a photo ID if they don’t have one.”
link
on “john delano” being 1/32 fdr that is local folk lore
The law should have specifically exempted Black Voters from being required to produce Photo ID in order to vote.
And any other grievance group that has a problem with that had best get a louder megaphone.
Roosevelt, the former Pittsburgh Public Schools superintendent, said Pittsburgh trained him for his new job.
“It’s helped me with virtually everything. I’m not sure there is a harder job than being superintendent of an urban school system. So, you learn to deal with conflict, and sometimes some pretty heated conflict. I had to make a lot of hard decisions in Pittsburgh about closing schools,” Roosevelt said.
Founded in 1852 and led by educational visionary Horace Mann, Antioch College closed its doors in 2008. Roosevelt reopened those doors for 33 students in 2011.
link
wiki
Arguing that universal public education was the best way to turn the nation’s unruly children into disciplined, judicious republican citizens, Mann won widespread approval from modernizers, especially in his Whig Party, for building public schools. Most states adopted one version or another of the system he established in Massachusetts, especially the program for “normal schools” to train professional teachers.[1] Mann has been credited by educational historians as the “Father of the Common School Movement”
So, I’ve always understood that the way things was supposed to work was : soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box; in that order.
So if they have taken away the first three then that leaves, uh, ….someone help me out here; I was never too good with math.
Just do what they do in California. If a law is overturned, just keep passing it until you run out of judges.
Or, you know, impeach judges that are crass partisans. That would work too.
I ain’t kiddin’ about impeachment, BTW. The fact that we’re not impeaching about 50 judges a year means we’re not trying hard enough.
It’s not like we’re gonna run out of lawyers.
Just call it a building security requirement. If you can fondle and strip search someone in an airport then picture Id’s for public buildings is a reasonable measure.
If their is any building (stip bar?) that requires photo id then you have the equal protection clause working for you as well.
their = there
stupid homonyms
Danger i wonder if the same argument used against Photo Voter ID could be used to dismantle the TSA. You know, there isn’t enough fraud (or danger) to warrant the burdens those regulations place on a voter or traveler as the case may be.
“stupid homonyms”
– Homophobe!
– Saying that a perfectly normal law shoiuld be eliminated or ignored because it “inconvieniences” people is insane.
BT,
I just can’t believe that some reporter hasn’t asked Holder why it’s ok to ask for I’d to get into his building but not a voting precinct.
However, if we can get the camels nose under the dismantling tent; lets add the ATF, EPA and department of education while we’re at it.
“- Homophobe!”
Apparently that’s one more way Jesus is better than me:
“Patrick Dubbs, superintendent for the School District, told The Christian Post that the out-of-court agreement was preferable to a lengthy court battle over the suit.”
– This little scam took root the day schools were told they weren’t allowed to enforce dress codes.
– Mr. Dobbs will now discover either his school allows “fuck your mother and the horse she rose in on” T-shirts or they’ll be lining up in the hallway for court appointments. Brilliant.
– We’re living in a social cesspool.
– And when your deciever-in-chief’s administration is a total disaster and you can’t rely on your puppy-dog media, your racial plantation voter block, your partisan judges, or your Congressional Leftwing America fuckers, whats a proud Progressive to do?
“Dems beg Bernanke to stimulate economy “
“Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., exhorted Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke to stimulate the economy before November through some form of quantitative easing or other monetary policy, which Bernanke said could create jobs.
“Despite two false starts, we’re having a much rougher time than we ever imagined getting unemployment down,” Schumer told the Senate Banking Committee. “So get to work, Mr. Chairman.” Schumer said Bernanke needed to stimulate the economy because Congress refuses — “maybe after November we will,” he opined.
“We will act in an apolitical, non-partisan manner to do what is necessary for the economy,” Bernanke replied. “We have said we are willing to take further action,” he added, saying “it’s very important that we see sustained improvement in the labor market.”
– So shut up Schumer and eat your peas…..
OT:
The 359 safest banks in America. Check out the only safe one in Arkansas. It figures.
Merovign: I’m with you all the way on impeaching judges who legislate from the bench. ‘Tain’t their job, and if they overreach the boundaries, they should be shown the door.
By the way, I’ve been collecting a list.
You have to have a valid photo ID when you want to:
• Purchase tobacco products
• Purchase alcohol
• Purchase pseudoephedrine (a.k.a. Sudafed)
• Pay with a check
• Check in to a hotel
• Travel on an airline
• Open a bank account
• Take a tour of the Whitehouse
• Get prescriptions filled
• Apply for food stamps (http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10101.html#howapply)
• Apply for a library card
• Enter the main headquarters of the Department of Justice in Washington to “petition the Government.”
• Apply for a passport
• Get medical care [Not sure if this is just common practice, or if it’s now required by law]
• Go to an R-rated movie
• Go to a strip show/watch “exotic dancers”
• Adopt a pet
• Purchase a home
• Purchase a car
• Purchase a gun
• Apply for a loan
• Receive a marriage license
• Drive
• Get a job
• Get a post office box
• Get a hunting license
• Get a fishing license
• Get a business license
• Rent an apartment
• Rent a car
• Rent tools and equipment
• Rent furniture
• Receive welfare
• Receive Social Security benefits
• Enter a casino
• Enter a bar
• Attend college
• Get utilities for your residence turned on
• Pick up a package from the US Post Office, UPS, or Fedex
• Sell scrap copper
• Re-enter the U.S. from Canada
• Obtain copies of your own medical records
• Get a free meal from a restaurant on your birthday
• Vote in a union election (http://electionlawcenter.com/2011/12/10/union-elections-require-a-photo-id-to-vote.aspx?mid=54)
• Get a document notarized
• Order a certified copy of a birth or death record
• Attend an Obama fundraiser
rjacobse:
IIRC, this is Federal law, part of HIPAA.
Also, I have to show photo ID to visit my kid’s school, but that’s a Catholic school and I’m not sure if that applies to the government’s Children’s Centers or not.
Not enough folks have reached that conclusion yet.
I think we’re getting there though.
If Obama is reelected there will likely be some form of partisan warfare perhaps even civil rebellion.
Then, then decisions will be made.
rjacobse: Order a certified copy of a birth or death record
Well, there’s the problem right there. If you want a state photo ID, you need a birth certificate. If you want a birth certificate, you need a state photo ID. Many people, including many elderly and rural people, don’t have ready access to the required documentation.
The other point is that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Zach,
I *don’t* know anyone that doesn’t have ID of one form or another. Those elderly people need ID to collect any benefits they must be getting, and the rural folks had better have ID’s because they’re sure to be driving everywhere.
If you can’t be bothered to get an ID that’s pretty much required for *everything* than you *shouldn’t* be allowed to vote. Period. Full Stop. End of story.
Rj: in my neighborhood we have to show an ID plus a “utility bill proving resisence” to throw away paint and batteries “properly”
It is? Cite, please. Back in the day, only male landowners could vote. There is no right to vote in the Constitution. There are prohibitions on discrimination, made by amendments, but there is no right.
It’s one of those positive rights found in a penumbra.
You wanna know what right is in the Constitution? The right to bear arms. Have you tried to purchase a firearm or obtain a license to carry without presenting ID to the seller or the State?
Better yet, get caught actually bearing a concealed firearm with no ID and see where that gets you.
Stark, I know. But it is what it is.
Winter is coming.
That’s what I want you to think.
Two states: Wisconsin and Nebraska. Two different current issues or controversies: prospective conditions for voting and prospective health care regulations.
Nevertheless, the disparate handling of the question of standing to bring suit is interesting in the contrasting outcome as it unfolds (perhaps in the similarities too, insofar as the same partisan interests happen to land on the successful side of both issues).
Nebraska judge dismisses lawsuit over contraception mandate
Next, Zachriel will be telling us the Constitution guarantees a right to drive.
…without a license.
Great stuff, rjacobse. I’m going to put it in a post.
“Winter is coming.”
Not Winter so much as a hyper expensive failtopia, economic paralysis, morale enhancement beatings, pseudo-corrective flailing about, confusion, and eventual collapse.
BigBangHunter says July 17, 2012 at 10:54 pm
“Dems beg Bernanke to stimulate economy “
“Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., exhorted Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke to stimulate the economy before November through some form of quantitative easing or other monetary policy, which Bernanke said could create jobs.
They want gas over $4 a gallon again, by Election Day?
BT says July 17, 2012 at 9:50 pm
You know, there isn’t enough fraud (or danger) to warrant the burdens those regulations place on a voter or traveler as the case may be.
What, suddenly this is a problematic concern for the Global Warming Left?
I need to catch up.
T-shirt ideas:
“I’m not really a homophobe. I just abuse you stupid faggots for the fun of it. ”
” The real Che would have killed me, but this Che might get me laid.”
” Clueless hippy whining IS a foreign policy. It’s just a really bad one. ”
” Obama played Golf while I lost my job. ”
” Chevy : Union Owned and it shows! ”
” MMm! This new Banana Republic is much tastier than the Plain old Republic was!”
” This shirt is racist if you want it to be.”
” White hispanics can’t get a fair shake in our crooked legal system.”
” The reality based community rejects any religion not approved by Karl Marx.”
” Obama: He’s like Carter and Nixon had a retarded devil baby. ”
” Laws are for bitches. Bosses follow Men (on a horse). ”
Picture of a burning US 48-Map ” We did this to ourselves. ”
” 6-28 -12: The Roberts Court uses the Constitution for toilet paper. “
– More things you can’t do without a picture ID:
* Enter a court house
* Hire a lawyer or para-legal
* Ftle a suit
* File for divorce
* File for business ownership
* Run for office
* Enter a Social Security building
* File for state disability
* file for Federal disability
* Check into a hospital
* Use Medicare health for insurance
* Pay state taxes
* Pay Federal taxes
* Pay city taxes
* Purchase ammunition
* Purchase explosives
* Purchase hazardous chemicals
* Dispose of hazardous chemicals
* Dispose of explosives
* Enter a nuclear power plant
* Enter the CIA
* Enter the NSA
* Enter the Pentagon
* Enter the Capital building
* Enter the White House
* Enter the National archives
* Apply for a flight license
* Join the military
* Compete in the Olympics
* Join almost any organization
* Register with a political party
* Register a species with the AKA
* Apply for a massuse license
* Apply for an accupuncture license
….and the number one picture ID requirement…
* Register for a liquer license
” This shirt is racist if you want it to be.”
I’d actual buy that one, Palaeo.
GMan: I *don’t* know anyone that doesn’t have ID of one form or another.
Here’s one. Turns out that there are large numbers of people without the required identification.
No it’s not.
How does anyone know how many there are? It’s like the estimates of the number of homeless people back in the ’80s — turned out the primary source of the claims was somewhere between the ileum and the anus.
Turns out there are large numbers of people who make up bogus “facts” on the spur of the moment.
Citations? We don’t need no steenking citations!
Not when we got a Gayr-AHN-tee we don’t!
“One” is not a large number. Trust me, I studied math….
One is totality.
Then they need to get some if they’d like to vote.
See? Simple!
You’d think so, wouldn’t you? Me too, but then we’re raaaaacists.
If they can’t be bothered to get off their ass to get an ID, perhaps they wouldn’t be voting anyway, except by proxy.
Slartibartfast: Next, Zachriel will be telling us the Constitution guarantees a right to drive.
The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees equal protection under the law. The Fifteenth Amendment prohibits racial discrimination in voting. The Twenty-fourth Amendment prohibits poll taxes. The effect of voter ID laws in many states creates an undue expense, disproportionately effects minorities, and results in unequal opportunity to vote.
Reasonable laws concerning identification are undoubtedly Constitutional, but many of these laws are specifically crafted to create barriers to reduce minority turnout.
Swen: “One” is not a large number.
The writer said he didn’t know any.
http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf
Swen: Then they need to get some if they’d like to vote.
The example provided showed the difficulty for many people to get the required identification under the current rules.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/05/07/479213/93-yo-plaintiff-voter-id/
The other point is that the right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution.
The Supreme Court ruled otherwise, for whatever that is worth.
http://www.systemsthinker.com/politics/polissues/righttovote.shtml
So there! Raaaaacisssssssts
How, pray tell, does free ID constitute an undue expense?
A requirement for ID is a requirement for ID. It is not a racial barrier. There is no racial barrier for ID. It is no more a racial barrier than is the barrier against convicted felons voting. That too disproportionally affects minorities. So what? It is still not a racial barrier.
There are an awful lot of white devils who live in the hinterlands, sometimes many many miles from a Tag Office or a DMV or whatever their state calls that place wherein you acquire identification. Requirements vary by state, as they are allowed to decide what constitutes proof. The point is one cannot waltz in and demand a photo ID; you must prove you are who you say you are. In my state it is a birth certificate and an original SS card, if you do not already have a photo ID from another state.
Those two documents are the only documents Oklahoma accepts as proofs. No, military IDs will not substitute, either.
Well, first you have to go and get it. And then you have to remember to take it with you when the union guys come around the neighborhood to take you to the polls. And then, to add insult to injury, you have to show it!
All that work! And for what? Just to keep politicians in office to pay my mortgage and buy my gas? What kind of monster are you to make me work so hard for those things!?
No, they’re specifically designed to defeat fraudulent voting.
Check out this racist!
Damned white supremacist.
You didn’t go get it. Somebody else got it! Because roads.
…many of these laws are specifically crafted to create barriers to reduce minority turnout.
Which state laws, specifically? What barriers, specifically? How much has turnout for various identity groups been reduced, specifically?
(Forgive me for my reluctance to accept your assertions at face value.)
B Moe: The Supreme Court ruled otherwise, for whatever that is worth.
Your link cites Bush v. Gore, which states “The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College.”
The statement concerns how the electoral college is chosen. And individual citizens do have rights once states decides to hold an election, under the Equal Protection Clause.
B Moe: How, pray tell, does free ID constitute an undue expense?
When it costs money to apply, and when insufficient time is allowed. Or worse, when it is required that you have an ID to get a birth certificate, and a birth certificate to get an ID.
Squid: How much has turnout for various identity groups been reduced, specifically?
http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf
Second quote above should be attributed to Pablo.
And individual citizens do have rights once states decides to hold an election, under the Equal Protection Clause.
No. Individual citizens may have the right to vote if granted by that state’s constitution.
When it costs money to apply, and when insufficient time is allowed. Or worse, when it is required that you have an ID to get a birth certificate, and a birth certificate to get an ID.
1)all these laws provide free id 2) can only talk of pa’s law which was signed in april – about 6 months to get your papers in order 3) To order certified copies of Pennsylvania birth certificates, the eligible applicant must be eighteen (18) years of age or older. You may order a copy of your own certificate or one for an immediate family member (spouse, parent, sibling, child, grandparent or grandchild).
Legal representatives must submit additional documentation justifying their need for copies of Pennsylvania birth certificates. Therefore, legal representatives are not eligible to order birth certificates online.
Where Can The Document Be Shipped?
Pennsylvania Vital Records will only ship certified copies of Pennsylvania birth certificates to the eligible applicant’s verified credit card billing address.
NOTICE: The credit card used to place the order must be registered in the name of the eligible requestor and the certificate will only be mailed to the name and address as reflected on the credit card billing address.
link
“B Moe: How, pray tell, does free ID constitute an undue expense?
When it costs money to apply, and when insufficient time is allowed. Or worse, when it is required that you have an ID to get a birth certificate, and a birth certificate to get an ID.”
They solve that particular seeming tautology with binding affidavits and or references. AND THEY ALWAYS HAVE.
Christy Moore and his Hippy manservant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D1vJJKFjm0
Zachriel: no one is buying this bullshit about people who are planning to, and want to, vote, being unable to do so because they are unable, in advance of said vote, to get a picture ID of some sort — so sudden was the vote upon them, and so great is the expense.
No one. Not even those pushing that story the hardest. Like, for instance, you.
You want legitimate votes canceled out with phony and illegal Democrat votes. Fuck you.
Silver Whistle: Individual citizens may have the right to vote if granted by that state’s constitution.
Under the Equal Protection Clause, once the state decides to hold an election, then everyone has the same right to vote.
newrouter: all these laws provide free id
Unfortunately, sometimes the “free id” requires expensive documentation, if the documentation is available at all. We’ve posted links on this above. What you posted about credit cards simply underlines the point.
Jeff G: o one is buying this
We have provided anecdotal and statistical information indicating the problem is deeper than you acknowledge. Applewhite has the right to vote.
http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/05/07/479213/93-yo-plaintiff-voter-id/
Just how many little Sybils do you have rattling around in that head of yours?
“Unfortunately, sometimes the “free id” requires expensive documentation, if the documentation is available at all. ”
Unfortunately, no, it actually doesn’t.
No one is buying it. If people need IDs, set up a service to get them IDs. Do a good deed. Don’t disenfranchise us.
Simple as that.
Now. Glad we settled that.
“Under the Equal Protection Clause, once the state decides to hold an election, then everyone has the same right to vote.”
Except felons, children, and non residents. And they only get one vote.
“We have provided anecdotal and statistical information indicating the problem is deeper than you acknowledge. Applewhite has the right to vote.”
And unfortunately it was trumped up, unpersuasive bullshit that only impresses the naive.
“free id” requires expensive documentation, if the documentation is available at all.
$10 see link above numbnuts for certs to 1906 in pa
Applewhite has the right to vote.
does she have a “right” to board a commercial aircraft?
I’m getting a serious racist vibe off this propagadist.
Minorities have a harder time getting ID than other people? Because they’re inherently inferior, Zach?
How are they inferior, Zach? Spell it out. Are they worse at filling out forms? Waiting in lines? Those are super easy things. You must think very, very little of them indeed.
bh folks who quote from thinkprogress are by definition non racist. Paternalistic maybe. Racist nevah.
Ooops, yeah, I keep forgetting that, BT.
Darn it.
Texas offers free ID for those who don’t have/can’t afford one and if your ass isn’t working, which it isn’t with no ID, time can’t be a problem, dullard.
The franchise is so important, no effort can possibly be worth the trouble to act on it.
They also have the same right to get an ID.
From http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf :
Now, we’re going to extrapolate that because we found 69 people who don’t have their documents available right this very minute, 16 million or so Americans will be disenfranchised by voter ID laws.
Blow it right out your ass.
BTW, Brennan uses 2000 census figures, I’m using 2010. What a crock of shit.
How do you think Presidents get elected?
Do you understand why that bolded part is important? Or am I going to have to explain it to you?
Michigan’s voter ID requirements, the horror, the horror.
I never could hold a candle to cousin Zach in the morale enhancement beating department.
Zachriel: Unfortunately, sometimes the “free id” requires expensive documentation, if the documentation is available at all.
palaeomerus: Unfortunately, no, it actually doesn’t.
This information was provided by rjacobse above.
palaeomerus: And unfortunately it was trumped up, unpersuasive bullshit that only impresses the naive.
Handwaving.
newrouter: $10 see link above numbnuts for certs to 1906 in pa
A fee necessary to voting would be a poll tax by another name.
newrouter: does she have a “right” to board a commercial aircraft?
TSA: “Not having an ID, does not necessarily mean a passenger won’t be allowed to fly. If passengers are willing to provide additional information, we have other means of substantiating someone’s identity, like using publicly available databases.”
Pablo: Now, we’re going to extrapolate that because we found 69 people who don’t have their documents available right this very minute, 16 million or so Americans will be disenfranchised by voter ID laws.
Yes, if you randomly sample 987 out of a population of millions, you can make reasonable estimates of the overall population. It’s called “statistics”.
http://www.amazon.com/Statistics-4th-Edition-David-Freedman/dp/0393929728
B Moe: Do you understand why that bolded part is important?
That’s right. Under the Constitution, states decide how to select electors. However, once they decide on an election, then they are bound by the 14th, 24th and 25th Amendment, as well as Civil Rights Laws. Not to mention principles of equality and democracy.
geoffb: Michigan’s voter ID requirements, the horror, the horror.
Such arguments would be more reasonable if people supporting voter ID laws showed some regard for the concerns of those worried about legal voters, such as Applewhite, being disenfranchised.
Under the Constitution, states decide how to select electors. However, once they decide on an election, then they are bound by the 14th, 24th and 25th Amendment, as well as Civil Rights Laws. Not to mention principles of equality and democracy.
But they aren’t required to hold elections. That is what it means to decide, you can choose one or the other. If they aren’t required to hold elections then obviously voting isn’t a right.
His master handwaving abilities led us to nick’ him “zachrabbit.”
B Moe: But they aren’t required to hold elections.
The vast majority of people would disagree with you. Most people believe they have a natural right to have a say in the election of their leaders, including the President. If a state tried to move away from population elections, there would be an outcry.
Nor are presidential elections the only elections involved. There are congressional elections, state and local elections. If you are envisioning a society without elections, then that would be a much different society than most would want. To each their own.
As for the U.S. Constitution, once an election is called, then they are bound by the 14th, 24th and 25th Amendment, as well as Civil Rights Laws.
If so, the vast majority of people would be wrong, and lacking understanding of the Constitution.
The definition of a cost indirectly associated with voting as a “poll tax” relies on past judicial precedent. Congress can instruct the courts differently.
The sample size is as ridiculous as the conclusions drawn from the results of the survey questions. Ah, statistics.
“This information was provided by rjacobse above.”
No, it was not. Nor is your initial attempt to describe a false dilemma arising from a false issue correct.
“Handwaving.”
Absolutely. One has the prerogative to hand wave poorly reasoned bullshit that is presented as if it were more than poorly reasoned bullshit.
This is a sad attempt to defend voter fraud, minimize outrage about it, and lead an attack on state sovereignty to take steps to make sure that only authorized voters vote. ID”s are not some insurmountable disenfranchising step and never have been. They are required for MANY aspects of life. There is no credible reason why they should not be required to vote.
“As for the U.S. Constitution, once an election is called, then they are bound by the 14th, 24th and 25th Amendment, as well as Civil Rights Laws.”
None of which address an ID requirement.
The dead need to stop voting.
Palaeo, Zachriel’s strongest argument against the ID requirement (and that’s a sad commentary on his position, really) is the “poll tax” thing.
The 24th Amendment does specifically prohibit Congress or any state from denying or abridging the rights of citizens to vote in any election for federal office “by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax. ” It does not, however, define a poll tax, leaving that up to Congress.
Congress can instruct the courts that a onetime cost associated with obtaining a free voter ID does not constitute “a poll tax or any other tax.”
That strikes the state’s right to charge for an ID not the right to require an ID to vote.
Actually, it can be argued that the 24th should refer only to a tax assessed specifically for the purpose of voting, which means it would be charged each time a person goes to the polls. The cost of obtaining a voter ID that’s good for, say, ten years would be a huge stretch.
Edited: I suppose the above should specify that “a tax assessed specifically for the purpose of voting” refers to the “poll tax” requirement. The inclusion of the phrase “any other tax” is clearly intended to rule out disqualifying voters who have not paid, for example, property or income taxes. In either case, the only reasonable expansion of the idea of “tax” for coverage under this amendment would be any assessment directly associated with exercising the vote that Congress or a legislature might attempt to call a “fee” or whatever.
Whether this applies to a cost incurred directly to obtain an ID card acceptable as proof of identity at the polls, but which can serve other purposes as well, is within the realm of honest debate. Any claim that it applies to costs that may be incurred to obtain documents necessary to obtain said ID card, is risible.
And we know proggs and the courts NEVER stretch definitions.
…and I did say it’s a sad commentary on his position…
Some people are really committed to voter fraud.
Veni, vidi, fraudi.
One of my son’s just moved to Pennsylvania and he needs a copy of his birth certicate, an official copy, to get a PA driver’s license even though he’s had a license in Oklahoma for six years.
And then he can vote. Oh, the humanity!
Silver Whistle: Individual citizens may have the right to vote if granted by that state’s constitution.
Under the Equal Protection Clause, once the state decides to hold an election, then everyone has the same right to vote.
States determine suffrage, as long as there is no contradiction with the 14th, 15th, 19th , 23rd, 24th or 26th Amendments. Restrictions on voting, minimum age, etc. are not determined federally, nor subject to Equal Protection.
Zach,
I asked for specifics about laws tailored against minorities and their specific effects. You gave me a bullshit “study” by some law students majoring in grievance studies, which asserts that “as many as” 11% of citizens don’t have current ID. This study makes no reference to specific state statutes and their effects on voting among minority groups. It makes no attempt to specify the reasons for a lack of current ID, nor the efforts required to remedy such.
There are some allusions to women who still have ID under their maiden name, or older citizens who let their drivers licenses expire because they no longer drive. Am I to believe that these folks would be unable to replace their non-current IDs? I mean, the study quotes 32 million women whose birth certificates don’t match their married name. You really think that 32 million women are going to lose the franchise? Really?
I’m also told that low-income people and blacks are more likely to lack current IDs. No mention of reasons why, nor steps that could be taken to rectify the situation. No mention of the thousands of pencil-pushers and their GOTV friends who bend over backwards to offer every service and program and freebie to these groups, and who will absolutely drag them kicking and screaming to get free IDs if it means they’ll continue getting votes from them.
At this point, I don’t even care if the State requires proof of identity to get the Voter ID. I’d be happy just knowing that the vanloads of voter cattle were limited to a single visit to a single precinct. Hell, at this point, I think the purple finger would be a fine innovation.
Still, thanks for the response. The distinction of being responded to by name almost makes up for the assumption that I’m stupid enough to mistake a vague study from the “Center For Justice” for specific examples of discriminatory law and its effects.
Pablo: If so, the vast majority of people would be wrong, and lacking understanding of the Constitution.
We said “natural right”.
Pablo: The sample size is as ridiculous
Sorry, but you are incorrect. The sample size will give a 4% margin of error with 95% confidence.
Zachriel: This information was provided by rjacobse above.
palaeomerus : No, it was not.
He stated that you needed a photo ID to get a birth certificate. While there may be ways to work around the problem, it can be very difficult for people, especially the elderly, minorities, and rural residents. Many U.S. citizens, especially minorities, were never issued birth certificates.
Zachriel: Handwaving.
palaeomerus: Absolutely. One has the prerogative to hand wave
One always has the prerogative to hand wave, while others have the prerogative to point out that is what you were doing. We provided anecdotal and statistical evidence. You provided nothing other than saying “Is not!”
palaeomerus: None of which address an ID requirement.
If your intent is to protect the integrity of the ballot, then it is important to acknowledge the problem many people have meeting the requirements, then try to find a solution. The assumption, of course, is that you think all legal voters should be able to vote without undue obstacles being imposed. (Someone above thought that Applewhite shouldn’t be allowed to vote.)
McGehee: Congress can instruct the courts that a onetime cost associated with obtaining a free voter ID does not constitute “a poll tax or any other tax.
The courts would probably find that unconstitutional. However, they might allow incidental costs.
If you can’t get identification, you should not be allowed to vote. Period.
“but many of these laws are specifically crafted to create barriers to reduce minority turnout. ”
That’s where you lost me. If the same laws make things difficult for rural voters, who are disproportionately white (and poor, and Republican), then that’s race-baiting. A bit of handwaving, as it were.
Are minorities disproportionately too stupid to carry out a simple task like acquiring personal identification? Is that what the left is arguing?
Given all of the effort that left wingers expend into crafting academic studies and engaging in general vomit about the connection between stupidity and conservatism, something doesn’t add up here. It’s like the entirety of leftism is a series of incompatible, fraudulent postures or something.
Alinsky is just about the best explanation Abe. It’s about power, nothing more, nothing less, so any other absurdities, stupidities, inconsistencies and so on have to be seen in that unifying light. Power, period. What the power is to be for, outside being in the possession of the leftists seeking it, is beside the point. Or in simpler terms, we can simply call it what it is: tyranny.
That’s about the only explanation I can fathom, sdferr. What’s truly odd, though, is how they manage it when we can be sure that most of them wouldn’t know Alinsky from a double-headed dildo. He’s sort of like Leo Strauss in the way in which he’s accorded an influence that is way out of proportion to how widely he’s a topic of discussion.
Are minorities disproportionately too stupid to carry out a simple task like acquiring personal identification? Is that what the left is arguing?
It is what they argued in Crawford v. Marion County Election Board. SCOTUS decided otherwise.
Their idiocy is what makes them useful.
Abe Froman: Are minorities disproportionately too stupid to carry out a simple task like acquiring personal identification?
Should Viviette Applewhite and people like her be denied to right to vote?
Large number of blacks born under Jim Crow were never issued birth certificates.
Sam Shapiro, “Development of Birth Registration and Birth Certificates in the United States,” Population Studies, 4:86-111, 1950.
I only intend to cite Alinsky as a crystallized example — not so much as a leader of men — on account of his forthrightness, i.e., he says plainly what he means. To the extent we look to him, we see the subordinated nature of these sidewise tactical exercises (recruiting 93 yr olds, for instance, to play their role in the larger game, and not for their own sakes as human beings).
As to Strauss, I probably reckon him in the opposite direction, though for reasons entirely against the misreckoning the left attributes to him.
Large number of blacks born under Jim Crow were never issued birth certificates.
Oh, I see. Republicans must atone for the past sins of Democrats by enabling Democrats to perpetrate fraud.
Large number of blacks born under Jim Crow were never issued birth certificates.
Citation, please. Since both of my parents were born at home and are in possession of birth certificates, even though there was no doctor present at their births in the early 30s, I’m not buying this.
I understood how you were using Alinsky, sdferr. The source of amusement to me is how they manage to herd so many people who are wholly oblivious to what a cynical will to power they’re a part of and, simultaneously, that they’re able to suspend disbelief over so many fundamentally incompatible arguments.
He is paraphrasing a cite, below, from a paper by the “non–partisan” Center on Budget and Policy Priorities “. It is from a 2005 study about the effect of requiring ID for Medicaid recipients.
Notice in the cite the words “may” and “estimated”.
Abe Froman: Republicans must atone for the past sins of Democrats by enabling Democrats to perpetrate fraud.
Thank you for acknowledging that the reason you want to prevent people like Applewhite from voting is for partisan purposes.
leigh: Citation, please.
Um, it was right under what you just quoted. Here’s an instance.
http://www.phillytrib.com/newsarticles/item/3784-seniors-hit-hard-by-voter-id-law.html
He probably found it because of this Tweet by “Win Progressive”.
Thank you for acknowledging that the reason you want to prevent people like Applewhite from voting is for partisan purposes.
Sorry, I thought I was pointing a finger and laughing at the bald-faced lunacy of Democrats. And while you’re at it, why don’t you man up and see to it that poor Vivian is getting her Social Security checks.
I quoted what I linked and the next part is this.
Natural right emanate from man made institutions? I did not know that.
It really seems like all the little liberal shitbirds who run to battleground states to help out in election years really need to head for rural areas and help old people get proper identification. Voting seems immaterial if they’re so nameless and faceless that they don’t have sufficient identification to receive Social Security. There’s not even a record of their birth, the poor souls!
The courts would be wrong. The 24th Amendment leaves the definition of a poll tax up to Congress. Except for John Roberts, the courts tend to defer to Congress on what does and does not constitute a tax.
So bus fare spent getting to the polls might not be a poll tax?
Someone is projecting again.
Is Zachriel still here pretending finding an ID is a major hassle — but getting to the voting booth somehow, either on a bus or in a car, etc., isn’t a burden at all to the very same poor ID-less people?
Why isn’t he out getting people IDs?
That’s a rhetorical question. Zachriel just wants to see if he can find an argument for justifying fraud and disenfranchisement for the benefit of the left. He cares not one wit about the rural hicks who’ll supposedly be unable to vote because they have no IDs.
Um, it was right under what you just quoted.
Don’t um at me, it’s rude. I didn’t read through all of your nonsense. That’ll teach me.
That “study” is 10 years old and dubious. It is patently false that people didn’t get their asses down to the county courthouse, particularly in urban areas, to register the births of their children. If my hayseed relatives managed to get all of their kids on the roles over one hundred years ago, and they lived many, many miles from “the city” and didn’t have a car, I don’t believe someone who lived in the city and had access to streetcars and the like couldn’t do the same.
Go the fuck away, already.
For those interested there is a free E-book download at Google of the 900 page “The methods and materials of demography, Volume 1” which contains a few of pages (463-465) on estimates of the percentage of births registered from studies done in 1940, 1950, and 1968-9 and the various problems inherent in estimating this metric.
McGehee: The 24th Amendment leaves the definition of a poll tax up to Congress.
No. They leave enforcement up to the Congress, not the definition.
Jeff G: He cares not one wit about the rural hicks who’ll supposedly be unable to vote because they have no IDs.
Quite the contrary. Every legal voter should be encouraged to vote.
geoffb: For those interested there is a free E-book download at Google of the 900 page “The methods and materials of demography, Volume 1? which contains a few of pages (463-465) on estimates of the percentage of births registered from studies done in 1940, 1950, and 1968-9 and the various problems inherent in estimating this metric.
Yes, they examine an estimate of 81% black birth registrations in 1940, explain why the figure might actually be too high due to differential enumeration in the census, but cite a finding “that census underenumeration of infants had little effect on the estimates of the completeness of birth registration.”
“No. They leave enforcement up to the Congress, not the definition.”
Enforcement is not a function of Congress.
“Quite the contrary. Every legal voter should be encouraged to vote.”
Encouraged how? “Should be” means what? What about military absentee ballots?
In any case, with regards to unregistered births, it’s clear that there are large numbers of people, especially minorities, who never had a birth certificate.
In addition, there are large numbers of people who have trouble getting their birth certificate in order to get a photo ID because they need a photo ID to get their birth certificate.
These are just some of the barriers.
palaeomerus: Enforcement is not a function of Congress.
24th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
palaeomerus: Encouraged how? “Should be” means what?
One way would be to remove unnecessary barriers to voting while also protecting the integrity of the system.
palaeomerus: What about military absentee ballots?
They should be counted, of course. What is the point of your question?
In addition, there are large numbers of people who have trouble getting their birth certificate in order to get a photo ID because they need a photo ID to get their birth certificate.
SCOTUS has already ruled this is not a barrier. What are you gibbering about?
“What are you gibbering about?”
We’ve established this, at least in part, already. To wit, enabling non-citizens, dead citizens, dogs and god only knows what otherwise ineligible beings else to vote. Or, in another place: power.
It’s strange, isn’t it, that we never see any big progressive push to get these poor folks some IDs? Seems like IDs would come in handy for these people beyond voting. Like, in just about all aspects of modern life.
Instead the important thing is to make sure that we can’t protect against voter fraud for some reason. That’s where all the political effort is exerted.
Such clear and obvious bullshit yet this tool keeps hammering away at it.
I guess voter fraud is just super, super important to them. Zach has convinced me. We should redouble our efforts on this front.
You’re full of shit and everyone here knows it.
In case you were thinking you’re making inroads.
“They should be counted, of course. What is the point of your question?”
To note your profound lack of expressed outrage at the fairly routine disenfranchisement of US troops stationed over seas in national elections by delaying shipment of their absentee ballots.
“24th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.”
And again, enforcement is not a function nor a power of the legislature. It is the function of the executive.
Your misunderstanding of the quote and the futility of your attempt to use it as a counter point is obvious.
The definitions that you claim congress is not allowed to make are IN the text of the legislation that they draft to see that it is enforced (as opposed to actually enforcing it themselves).
A relative with ID can get the record for them. Next.
“One way would be to remove unnecessary barriers to voting while also protecting the integrity of the system.”
You have not sufficiently established that a lack of ID requirements do or can protect the integrity of the system nor that erected barriers to ineligible voting are unnecessary nor that such barriers are impervious or even harmful to the suffrage of eligible voters. You have not established that Congress though legislation cannot define the meaning of a term like poll tax or that an ID with or without a fee for issuance is a poll tax. Nor have you proven that some tautological loop can keep someone without documents from getting an ID.
The whole case here is shit with no credibility behind it.
You have offered poorly documented advocacy assertions and estimates but they make a terrible case and use awful methodology and come from a biased source so they are worthless.
“In any case, with regards to unregistered births, it’s clear that there are large numbers of people, especially minorities, who never had a birth certificate.”
Not so much.
“In any case, with regards to unregistered births, it’s clear that there are large numbers of people, especially minorities, who never had a birth certificate.”
Q: What if the state where my birth took place does not have a record of my birth?
A: If applying for a birth certificate and when we search for the record and no record is found on file then a no record of birth certificate will be issued. This no record of birth can be used to obtain a passport if needed. You will be charged by the state and our company for a No Record of Birth.
link
We’ve established this, at least in part, already. To wit, enabling non-citizens, dead citizens, dogs and god only knows what otherwise ineligible beings else to vote. Or, in another place: power.
Exactly, sdferr. The feigned outrage on behalf of the mythically oppressed is also a bit too camp for my tastes.
If I had deep concern for these ID-less people, I’d be more concerned with these peoples’ inability to get a Social Security number than with their ability to vote, unless I were really, really interested in making it so that voter fraud remains really, really easy.
No, really! You can ask 987 randomly selected voting-age American citizens whether they have their ID docs handy right fucking now and then determine how many people will be disenfranchised with 95% confidence! I saw it on the internet!
Really like that 1940 number eh?
So we are to allow the credibility our entire election system to be compromised because of some few individuals who have managed to live for over 70 years without having any Social Security Number, birth certificate, drivers license, bank account, credit card, bank loan, have never been paid by a check for anything, never had a drink or smoked tobacco, never worked a regular job anywhere – just under the table cash payment employment if any, and after living that hard scrabble existence for all these years can’t seem to figure out a way to get to the office that issues IDs and get one?
Democrats, we think our voters are dumber that the dirt they all live in.
No kidding, geoff. As avaricious as our government is, I find it highly unlikely that all these undocumented folks are out there NOT PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE!!!!
Silver Whistle: SCOTUS has already ruled this is not a barrier.
The lead opinion cited lower courts that found no evidence of a burden. If the voters can show that their rights were impaired, then the decision allows a different result.
bh: It’s strange, isn’t it, that we never see any big progressive push to get these poor folks some IDs?
Actually, there’s a big push to try and overcome the obstacles voter ID laws have created.
palaeomerus: To note your profound lack of expressed outrage at the fairly routine disenfranchisement of US troops stationed over seas in national elections by delaying shipment of their absentee ballots.
All eligible citizens have the right to vote and have their votes counted. Why is the military delaying shipment of absentee ballots?
palaeomerus: And again, enforcement is not a function nor a power of the legislature.
The Congress enforces the Amendment through legislation.
24th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
palaeomerus: It is the function of the executive.
Yes, that is correct. The legislature passes legislation to enforce the article. The executive executes the law.
palaeomerus: The definitions that you claim congress is not allowed to make are IN the text of the legislation that they draft to see that it is enforced (as opposed to actually enforcing it themselves).
Any legislative definition that was contrary to the meaning of the amendment would be prima facie unconstitutional.
geoffb: So we are to allow the credibility our entire election system to be compromised because of some few individuals who have managed to live for over 70 years without having any Social Security Number, birth certificate, drivers license, bank account, credit card, bank loan, have never been paid by a check for anything, never had a drink or smoked tobacco, never worked a regular job anywhere – just under the table cash payment employment if any, and after living that hard scrabble existence for all these years can’t seem to figure out a way to get to the office that issues IDs and get one?
Among the elderly, for instance, they may have Social Security cards, bank accounts, credit cards, bank loans , and expired drivers licenses, but can’t use those to vote.
This discussion would go a long way if someone would acknowledge that there shouldn’t be an undue burden placed on people’s right to vote.
And simple proof of citizenship and identity is certainly too great a difficulty, an undue burden on the non-citizen or the dead citizen or on the citizen’s dog, the second and third time on election day voting person and whatnot. Yes, we know.
What discussion?
You’re an advocate for voter fraud and we don’t have to pretend otherwise.
The nubs bolded and a word choice tell replaced.
It is not “undue” and it is a duty and a privilege not a “right.”
Funny how it’s so easy to catch them out like that, eh bh?
Why is the military delaying shipment of absentee ballots?
you might ask democrat run states why they routinely delay sending absentee ballots to their citizens in the military
This discussion would go a long way if someone would acknowledge that there shouldn’t be an undue burden placed on people’s right to vote.
showing an id is not an “undue burden”. only a person invested in voting fraud would say that.
This discussion would go a long way…
1. There shouldn’t be an undue burden placed on people’s right to vote.
2. Fiji would be far enough.
3. Bon voyage.
The only one of which is getting ID. Where is this push? What are you contributing to it?
Eligible citizens are those who meet the qualifications, including ID.
The military is not stalling the ballots. They’re not being issued in a timely fashion, mainly in Democrat controlled districts.
Legislation does not enforce itself. The Executive Branch enforces it. Duh.
If they have expired ID, they can get current ID.
I’ll give you this; you make for an easy but entertaining game of Whack-A-Mole. Thwap.
geoffb: It is not “undue” and it is a duty and a privilege not a “right.”
That’s where we differ. We believe people have certain natural and inalienable rights, including a say in choosing their leaders. Indeed, millions have fought and are fighting today, at great cost, for that right.
We have provided information that the current voter ID laws will disenfranchise a large number of eligible voters.
newrouter: you might ask democrat run states why they routinely delay sending absentee ballots to their citizens in the military
Good news! Sen. Schumer (D-NY) introduced and Obama signed the Military and Overseas Voter Empowerment Act (MOVE) requiring ballots be mailed at least 45 days before a federal election. The Obama Administration has already sued several states to enforce the requirement.
Natural rights do not emanate from man-made political institutions, nor are you granted them when you turn 18.
Pablo: Natural rights do not emanate from man-made political institutions
That’s why they’re called natural rights. Rather, in order to to secure these rights, governments are instituted.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration.html
So, again. People have the right to have a say in choosing their leaders. In the U.S. system, once an election is called, people have the constitutional right to equal protection. Efforts to protect the integrity of the ballot can be made; however, if they exclude more valid voters than illegitimate votes are prevented, then you have damaged, not protected, the integrity of the ballot. If someone like Applewhite can’t vote, there is something wrong with the system.
Yes. Everyone who is a citizen, an adult, identifies themselves properly and is not a felon is eligible. Equal protection.
People have a right to ensure that the choosing of their leaders is free of fraud.
Someone should get Applewhite an ID. If you have no way of knowing how many votes are fraudulent because you have no way of identifying them, then you can’t quantify them. But you can quantify people w/o ID…and get them ID. Easy peasey.
One almost has to feel sorry for this idiot.
That would require some sort of feeling for this idiot. I’m fresh out. I might have a smidge of disdain left, but that’s about it.
I did say almost. You know it’s election season when the over-matched dolts start dropping in. This one reminds me a lot of our old semi-resident troll meya.
Pablo: Everyone who is a citizen, an adult, identifies themselves properly and is not a felon is eligible. Equal protection.
That’s right. (Felons may or may not have a legal right to vote, but that’s a matter of due process.)
Pablo: People have a right to ensure that the choosing of their leaders is free of fraud.
That’s right.
Pablo: Someone should get Applewhite an ID.
She is still trying. But she is just one of many. A fifth of blacks born before the 1950s never had a birth certificate. By not even acknowledging a possible problem, you are disenfranching many people who had been disenfrancised before.
People on this thread, based on their limited cultural experience, expressed incredulity that people didn’t have birth certificates, so they can’t imagine that people would have trouble getting a photo ID. Nor will they acknowledge the you might need a photo ID to get a copy of your birth certificate which you need to get a photo ID. Or that there might be significant costs involved in tracking down various documents, including marriage licenses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/us/politics/tougher-voter-id-laws-set-off-court-battles.html?pagewanted=all
Again, the key is to protect the integrity of the ballot without putting undue burdens on legal voters’ access to the ballot.
Who is not acknowledging a possible problem? It’s solvable. Solve it. Voter fraud is also a solvable problem.
I’m about solutions. You’re about perpetuating fraud.
My feature is your bug. Too bad.
All you’ve proven is that you aren’t the only blithering fucking idiot in existence. Who do any of you think that you’re fooling when your principal concern is that morons who quite clearly are not fully-functioning adults are potentially unable to vote? If this is such a concern to you, then perhaps you should invest your time into helping these people get this squared away rather than inflicting your obviously limited intelligence upon us?
Probably didn’t need that question mark at the end.
It’s funny too (odd funny, that is) that this undue burden gambit more resembles Steiner’s non-existent Corps than it does, say, the Wehrmacht of 1940-41, yet this bozo, much like Herr Fuhrer in his bunker, is entirely incapable of processing the information. However that may be, all praise is due the loopy dullards that make for the poor vanguard of the Volk.
Bibi Netenyahu is on FNS.
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