A (semi) ubiquitous topic here, but I’m in the market for a concealed carry handgun — and one for my wife, as well — and am open to suggestions / favorites.
Also, has anybody yet fired the Kel-tec KSG? I’m probably going to pick that up as soon as I can find it unless I hear really bad things about it from people here I trust on such matters.
That gun will be my “Watts Riots / aliens are invading / people are staking out my house and had better not come on the property / The end is near!” weapon. Last ditch defense, if I’m going down, I’m going down in a fine mist of other persons — that type thing.
Begin!
I’m interested too; I’ve been a revolver guy but the advantages of autoloader magazines are pushing me firmly into that camp now.
My current carry piece is a Glock 33 with +2 pinky extensions on all my magazines and Trijicon nite sites. Check out the Glock 26/27/33 platform for a sub-compact concealable piece with good capacity. That said, what you can conceal is largely a matter of your size and build and how you will carry. If you’re tall and slender, you might be able to get away with a larger framed sidearm without obviously “printing.” I know tall fellows who carry officer frame 1911s.
I have a few Sigs, a Kimber, and a Beretta and I will say that my Glocks are the most reliable of the bunch. They always go bang. I’ve had stovepiping issues with my Sigs and Beretta (I think the issues were related to the use of 115 gr. 9mm ammo around 2007-2008 when everybody and his brother was buying guns and 124 gr. was hard to come by). Glocks are simple, which is to say that they have about half as many internal parts as your average handgun, which I think adds to the reliability – much less can go wrong. No multiple safetys, switches, levers, etc. Much less can go wrong.
In a self defense/home defense situation, your group at 15 yards doesn’t matter much. What does matter is that the sidearm fires reliably every time you pull the trigger. Point and click. Most of all, don’t be one of those fools who buys a pistol and a box of ammunition and never shoots the damned thing. You’ll need to practice, practice, practice to get comfortable with your piece so that it will be second nature if and when you’re in a situation.
Edit to add:
Handguns are for when you didn’t expect to get into a gunfight. If you expect to get into a gunfight, you’d better have a long gun. For the “Watts Riots” situation, if you don’t want to spend on a carbine, I’d say go to your local sporting goods store and get ye a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 in 12 guage for under $300.
At $600 that KSG is mighty tempting. As for carry, Kimber has some righteous offerings.
Ahhhh, just back from the river-range where we happily wasted hundreds of rounds of .22, .22 Mag, 9mm, .380ACP, and 12 ga. And of course .40 S&W, the mid-size winner-of-class.
Newest was a Ruger LC-9, a small concealed carry piece. Long trigger pull, not much to grip for a big hand. Also new, the .40 Smith & Wesson Sigma Series, filled the hand a little better, with a louder bark. I liked it better than the 9.
Proof of concept at the end of it all: we’d been shooting paper targets on a home-made 2X4 framework held in place with bricko-blocks. I fired one of shot at the framework with my Remington 870, knocked the whole contraption clean over.
‘Nuff said.
I’d say go to your local sporting goods store and get ye a… Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge for under $300.
I heartily second that–the Mossberg is a quality shotgun. I have three interchangeable barrels for mine, which allows a range of sporting and home defense options.
Alec —
Just got a SIRT laser training pistol and a laser target. So that I can practice when I’m not out practicing.
I like the Mossberg, but I have to say, I watched some video of a guy shooting that Kel-tec, and it is an evil looking piece with a lot of versatility.
I’m with Penn Jillette: when I shoot that thing, I want to destroy shit that I’m aiming at. So hopefully I don’t have to shoot it in anger.
Go to a gunshow, Jeff. You don’t have to necessarily buy anything, but it will give you a chance to look around. Also to get Satchel a .22 for popping squirrels and bunnies.
The Kel-Tec KSG is a neat design with many positive features, not least the dual magazines let you switch back and forth between slug and shot, or really extend capacity on either.
The trigger is atypical, though, from what I’ve read. If you hold the trigger back while cycling the action, it won’t fire when you put the bolt into battery. This means you have to pump again and eject an unfired round.
I think Kel-Tec did it this way because the weapon is so short that they were concerned about the forward hand sliding into the line of fire.
Also, get the forearm pistol grip.
Get the shotgun and a good hand gun.
And a leash for your new bomb sniffing German Shepherd.
That way when you go out to get the trash cans you’ve got your bases covered.
Maybe get a police scanner and listen for your address.
By my bed I keep a Colt Trooper in 38sp., but in my office I keep a whole bunch more. The gun rack outside my office has a couple of lever guns, a classic 9422 for plinking and a Rossi 92 in 357 for serious defense. You can’t have too many guns. In fact every door in my office has a rifle hanging off the door knob.
It’s nice to know I’m surrounded by my fellow Outlaws who are as vigilant as I have learned to be.
We are out in the country and on a private road so we don’t have a lot of traffic to watch out for, but we have a large populations of thieves in the county. Chained down heavy equipment is harder to steal especially when the motion lights spot you sneaking around. Big barking dogs help, too.
We are also far away from first responders, so it’s better safe than sorry.
Jeff, if you’re going to carry, you’ll need to practice being Quickdraw McGraw. It’s a lot harder than it it looks in the movies.
The “problem” with the KSG is that they cannot make enough to keep up with demand. They are still way over list price, over $1K on gunbroker.
I still want one.
As far as carry pieces go, I think revolvers have a lot of advantages. They cannot jam, and a misfire just means you pull the trigger again. They also don’t spit out cartridge casings with your fingerprints on them.
On the other hand, when I had handguns (before all my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident), I owned only one revolver.
There are so many guns to choose from. The smart thing, IMO, would be to go to a range and rent a few guns like the type you’re considering. I would be looking at a .38 revolver or a similar caliber automatic, and work from there. My favorite handgun is the 1911 in .45 ACP, but some consider that too heavy to carry. Kimber makes some very nice carry .45s, but they are not cheap. Remember that if you get a gun that you decide isn’t worth the trouble to carry, you have done yourself no good at all.
So, first shoot a few to see where you’re at.
Jeff, the Glock 32 is a decent size concealed carry. It comes in .357 Sig, which is a snappy round that penetrates well. It also accepts a .40 S&W barrel and the mags are interchangeable (.357 Sig is a necked-down .40). I also have a 9 mm barrel which requires different mags, but allows me to shoot a whole heck of a lot more than the .357 which is a bit pricey and not always stocked. But you sure know that it is going down-range fast and hitting hard.
On the topic of the best gun for carry being the one you have with you, there is virtually nothing I can’t wear and still carry my Ruger LCP. The .380 Auto is a bit on the small size, but in a good defensive hollow point load, it’s better than finger-painting with your dick. (See, Pablo, I was able to shamelessly rip that off and use it!)
Whatever you do, get some good training and then shoot a lot. If you get a .22 pistol to practice sight picture and trigger control, you can shoot all day long for a few bucks. But I’ll warn you right now, it’s addictive. Good family fun and a chance to pass on some 2d Amendment heritage.
I own a Bersa Thunder 380 and a Ruger 380 LCP. The Bersa is a smooth shot compared to the Ruger, which pinches me in the fleshy part between the thumb and index every time I shoot it. The Ruger is easier to conceal (so tiny!) I can easily carry it in my purse. My husband insisted I get a gun and learn how to shoot it when there were several break-ins in our neighborhood recently. He’s a LEO, so I got the whole “don’t pull a gun on someone unless you’re prepared to shoot them.” He takes me to the range, and I get a perfect score! And this was the first time I ever shot. He doesn’t worry about my safety anymore.
+1 on what Alec said, especially about practice and training. There is a tremendous amount of truth to the saying “beware the man with one rifle, because he knows how to use it” The same applies to shotguns and handguns obviously.
At the end of the day you will be most effective with the reliable firearm that you are familiar with.
I am totally unfamiliar with the Keltec. I do have a Mossberg 590 and if I were buying a shotgun today it would be either the Benelli M2 Tactical or the Remington 870, depending on how much money I had. So let’s assume it will be the 870. The advantage of the 870 over the mossberg is the ergonomics of the safety. The mossberg safety position sucks, you can’t reach it without moving your trigger hand off the trigger. Not to talk you out of the Keltec, but the 870 has 30+ years of reliable mass market usage behind it. And they can be tricked out with all manor of evil looking aftermarket stocks, grips, sights, lasers, lights, etc. Just food for thought.
With regard to handguns, I was a Sig Sauer guy for a long time, but have fallen back to my 1911’s. Currently I am debating with myself over getting a Sig 239 as carry gun. Size and weight wise the 239 is much more manageable. I’m going to disagree with Alec on the Glocks, but on philosophic grounds. Everything he said about their reliability is true. My sense is that a handgun a a better than nothing tool. If you expect trouble, get the shotgun. if you don’t, it is still nice to have the handgun handy. It is better than a knife, a bat or being caught with nothing at all. And that is where I get to my difference on Glocks.
If I am the unwitting target, chances are I am going to end up in a close encounter where being disarmed is a real possibility. (disarmed= having gun stripped away, not out without a gun). In that situation any idiot can pick up my glock and shoot me, all they have to do is pull the trigger.
Gun people know 1911’s but most folks are unfamiliar with their operation. In the scenario above, that gives me a small window to regain control. Having said all that, the Sig is no better than the Glock- in that scenario.
For a first or only handgun, I wouldn’t recommend a small concealable gun. Practice is important and the tiny guns are no fun to practice with. A mid size gun is as easy to holster and conceal as a tiny gun and, well, it’s not a tiny gun. Something mid- or full sized is better.
Put some thought into future purchases here too. Think in terms of learning and regular practice with a ‘larger’ handgun that has the same controls and operations as small concealable handgun. Accidents are more likely when people train a lot with one type of handgun then switch to another. You want your gun to be second nature. (the man with one gun). When there is no time to think, perhaps you are already wounded, that is not the time to be fiddling with the controls-
That is a real plus for Glocks, they are all alike and you can get them in lots of sizes. But it is true of many other manufactures as well.
One final thought- reloading requires a fair amount of upfront costs, but it makes for cheap shooting, which means lots o’ practice. I am still using the reloading equipment that i bought over 20 years ago. Tens of thousands of rounds have been made with them and they will make tens of thousands more.
I just obtained a Sig Sauer P250 compact in .40 S&W and will be heading to the range soon to break it in. This will be my concealed carry weapon.
I think you are describing weapons for two different scenarios. Home invasion / personal defense you want something that goes in and rattles around, not through and through into the neighbors bedroom. For Zombie time you want stopping power, to start engaging at a distance with no worries about collateral damage, and that’s when your crew served weapons start to come into their own. No crew you say? No problem.
Sig-Sauer P239 9mm parabellum DA/SA with de-cocking. Much better than DA only semi-autos like Glocks for rapid fire but not the smallest around. Sig P238 in 380acp is smaller but is only SA much 1911A1 .45acp or old Colt Mustang.
“concealed carry handgun” Check out the Ruger LCR. Won’t help with the apocalypse, but fine for what a CCH is for: last-extremity close-range.
I was always told that getting off the first shot was less important than getting the first shot into target. Also, knowing the difference between concealment and cover is kind of worthwhile.
Here’s a trick some of us use for safety reasons. Not everyone familiar with semi-autos will agree but I chamber a blank and then have semi-jacketed hollow points or frangibles in the magazine.
After you pop the 1st cap you’ll have to rack the weapon to cause real damage but you scare the crap out of a home invader with limited harm quickly and with minimal chance of an accidental discharge causing harm.
A good balance between “cocked and locked” carry and “Israil” carry.
RiverRat
Jeff,
For CCW, it depends on what you’re willing to put up with. If you can live with moderate discomfort, go with a decent size/caliber semi auto or revolver in a good inside the waistband holster. (I CCW a full size 1911 using an inside the waistband holster..for a lot of people, it’s too uncomfortable)
Also, if you’re going to CCW, make sure the gun is one you are comfortable shooting. By comfortable, I mean for whatever reason, the gun just fits you well. Could be a SIG, Glock, Ruger or 1911 variant.
For a SHTF scenario, the best gun is probably some sort of .22 rifle.
The HOA won’t understand the KelTec.
So it is an indoor gun with a big boom… which is great except you will need to train and maneuver in a way that doesn’t blast drywall, dougfir and other shit raining on your wife and kids… they need to be behind you.
And good on you for letting “whomever” know that they’ll be meeting up with lethal force.
I still say ripping a known bad guy intruders head off his neck would be satisfying on a primal level…. geez, it’d be satisfying in the 21st century.
Where is the love for the Model 37 Ithaca?
Like that idea, River Rat!
This has me completely stumped as my Mossberg 500 has the safety as a sliding piece on the top rear of the receiver where my thumb can reach it easily with my finger right beside the trigger and works well eithr right handed or left which is what I have to do if I need the sights on a long gun being of left master eye and right handed.
And B Moe for us left hand shooters the Model 37 is very nice since the round ejects down.
It’s not really concealable but I’ve been slightly captivated by the newer FNP-45’s. They have a lot of nice options on them for $600 or so. And it’s a 15 round double stack that supposedly doesn’t have any jamming problems.
Oh, the newer FNP-s are called “FNX tactical”. Silly me.
Yep. Perhaps the reference is to the action lock lever and not the safety? That’s kind of awkward to get at, especially with a pistol grip.
@lilida,
I have the same Bersa and like it very much. I have very small hands and it is easy for me to work the slide and it has never pinched me, either.
Ok. One advantage to shooting lefty then is that my middle finger can trip it with my index finger next to the trigger. I have a regular stock as I am used to it from hunting with the same gun.
I’ve got one of these on mine and I like the versatility of bring able to shoulder and sight it or bring it in tight for possible indoor activities. But that lever’s a bitch to get at unless you reach right around the trigger. Which, I’d never do that. Nope. Wouldn’t be prudent.
Just popping in to say that I’ve been the holder of a Texas CHL for seven years and my preferred sidearm is a .38 Smith & Wesson Model 342 revolver. Small, powerful, easy to conceal. However, it only carries five rounds.
By the way, greetings from Goring-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, UK, which is where I’ll be for the next five weeks. Tally-ho!
Let me note that for home defense many suggest a 20 gauge shotgun because just about anyone can shoot one with no trouble.
Goring-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, UK
baked beans for breakfast
what’s a decent 20 gauge shot gun?
Same as a decent 12 gauge.
Geoff, not if you add a pistol grip stock.
Not so bad once you get used to it!
Cranky’s got the right idea, I think; trying out many models. Many folks won’t like my P250’s long trigger pull (DAO). In all, it does you no good to buy a weapon you won’t carry because you end up not liking it, and I know a lot of folks like that.
iron 308, that makes sense as did Pablo’s comment.
Since I have to shoot left handed those safeties that are push-buttons on the trigger guard always have to be pushed the wrong way so I like one on top of the receiver.
Same as a decent 12 gauge.
as an idiot on these matters then the shotgun doesn’t matter it is a question of ammunition?
stay away from the kel tec….get a t ruger LC9 or the 380 version if you really need something to conceal. I am a proud owner of a new Sig P226 and it shoots great.
If recent events in South Beach are any indication of where things are headed we all better stock up on some of that Hornady Zombie ammo…and I though it was a stupid gimmick:
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21007585058418/new-details-emerge-in-causeway-police-involved-shooting/
newrouter,
Mossberg 500, Remington 870, Ithaca M-37 pumps all have 20 gauge versions which function just like the 12 gauge ones. The more exotic shotguns are usually only in 12 gauge.
Leigh,
I love the Bersa, too. I tried several revolvers, but the Bersa won me over just for its weight. I am not necessarily small, but not an Amazon, either. I did not have the strength to hold up some of the bigger guns. Jeff’s wife will need to consider that, too. But I’m a crack shot, so a smaller gun doesn’t matter. I get ’em dead center every time.
so its barrel diameter for 20 vs 12. what’s the difference between 20 and 12 shot? also if i purchased a shotgun are there places to practice shooting it? i know that handguns have places.
A 12 gauge shell will hold more shot, so you make more holes in what you’re shooting at.
But I’m a crack shot, so a smaller gun doesn’t matter.
Heh. Same here. I have some larger guns, but like you say, they are too heavy or have too much recoil for me. Good advice, too, about Jeff’s wife taking her size into consideration.
This picture shows 20ga and 12.
so a 20 gauge would work ok at short distance but if you wanted to shoot say fowl in the sky a 12 gauge is better?
Yes.
12 is also the most common in use. The 20 has less recoil and for home defense would do fine. Nice hunting gauge for upland game.
upland game
i’m lazy but what is “upland game”? now off too see about eric erickson getting swatted.
Quail, partridge, pheasant etc.
nr, I have to say I’m disappointed. You’re a Pittsburgh guy and you’ve never been hunting? The whole state closes it’s public schools on the first day of deer season.
I think you’re pulling our legs.
I think attitude and mindset is just as important as the particular weapon chosen. Masood Ayoob, who is considered an expert on firearm self defense wrote a book called “In Gravest Extreme”. Lots of excellent information on both legalities and tactics and what to expect in the aftermath of a shooting. Highly recommended reading.
As far as a handgun, I would look for a semi-auto that has been around for a few years with a good reputation for durability and reliability. Glock, HK, Smith and Wesson, and Sig are all good places to look with these priorities. That is not to say that there are not others as well, but avoid anything with the names Bersa, Hi-Point or Taurus as these have serious issues with quality control.
As far as caliber, bear in mind that simply buying a gun doesn’t make you a shooter any more than a driver’s license makes you a NASCAR driver, so choose a caliber that is not as expensive to shoot, such as 9mm. The savings you will have over something like .45 ACP or .357 SIG will eventually pay for good training classes. Those classes should be considered a necessity not a luxury.
As far as a shotgun goes, I would agree with the other recommendations of a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500/590. Both can be had with extended mag tubes that push capacity to 8 or 9 rounds. While the KSG looks like an interesting idea, I don’t think it has been around long enough to have trusted reliability, there just isn’t enough information about it yet to trust it as my only shotgun.
Personally, I think loading a blank first in any gun is a bad idea. You should NEVER get into the habit of thinking you can pull the trigger just to scare someone. You should never even point a gun if you are not prepared to kill. Just leave it in the holster, or better yet never take it out of the display case at your local gun shop. A gun is not for intimidation unless knocking over liquor stores is your profession.
It’s not just legalities, there is a huge psychological impact to the taking of a human life. It’s not all just “Fuck yeah!” like in the movies. Gavin de Becker has written a number of books about self-defense and the impact of deadly violence on one’s life and psyche. They are all excellent and must-read, imo.
I agree with Dan…blank = bad idea.
A blank in the chamber is a BAD idea. What if it has enough recoil to START the slide moving, but not enough to complete the cycle? You could get a nasty stove pipe jam, a jam bad enough to keep you from racking the slide to clear it.
Then the target knows you would have killed him — and you’re left with no defense. That’s even ignoring the legal issues — using your weapon opens up enough complications, now you’ve opened up the question of whether you really DID think you were in serious enough danger to use deadly force.
Best thing to do is to find some people willing to let you try their guns or ranges that rent and try a range of different weapons. As others have said, handguns are for last-line defense, shotguns are for intermediate range, and rifles are for long range (preventing a threat from getting within shotgun or pistol range). Pick a weapon that you’re comfortable shooting, and that you can afford ammunition for, and practice practice practice.
The biggest factor in effectiveness is shot placement, so practice is critical. A .22 in the right place is better than a miss with a .50. After that comes round type (hollow point vs ball) and then caliber and energy.
I think you’re pulling our legs.
i’ve shot a few guns but ” mainstream sports” were the thing growing up. just trying to catch up on my miseducation.
So that movie “The Deerhunter” (the part about hunting in PA) was all a lie, huh? My ex is from PA and he never went hunting, either.
I was just teasing you.
thanks for all of your assistance
oh heck “to all” . and “deer hunter” did capture the eastern european experience in sw pa @ 1978
A couple months ago my wife and I were at a local range and were able to fire three pistols side by side, a Taurus Slim, a Kahr compact, and a Walther PPS, all in 9mm. The PPS was head and shoulders above the others in every way imaginable.
The Taurus had a very long, stacked trigger pull, and a bore axis too far above the grip, so had very flippy recoil. The Kahr wasn’t nearly so bad in those regards, but it seemed rather big and boxy for it’s actual size, the magazine release button was small, and difficult to actuate, and the magazine well was not conducive to easy reloads.
The PPS had a very good natural point, a comfortable grip for both me (medium large hands) and her (medium/small), good visibility sights. My wife even liked them and she is very accustomed to not using sights as her current revolver (Ruger LCR) has Crimson Trace grips. Trigger pull was good, and broke very crisp, and the overall design made for easily managed recoil and quick return to sighting.
The only mechanical downside to the PPS is that the magazine release is actually part of the trigger guard, and not the more typical grip frame button. But, if you are not already used to the button then the trigger guard release is not an issue. The only other downside to the PPS is the price, which is quite a bit more than any of the others.
As soon as our budget allows we intend to get one for each of us, hers in 9mm, mine in .40 S&W (my current carry weapon is a Sig 229.)
And rather than a KSG, get a used Remington 870, preferably with a 18-20 inch cylinder choke barrel. Add in a 2 shot magazine extension, a side saddle ammo carrier, and a detachable flashlight. Or, for what you would pay for the KSG, get two similarly equipped 870’s.
It is also important to remember that every round fired has a lawyer attached to it.
Even a totally righteous justified shooting can have devestating civil consequences, despite being found innocent of criminal charges.
Plus plus Mossberg 500. Look for the combo when it is on sale at Big5 sporting goods. Combo comes with a 20″ cylinder bore barrel for close encounters and also a 28″ barrel in I believe Modified choke, or even with threads for internal chokes.
Buy #4 buckshot for the magazine at home and it is always nice to have some slugs on hand, too.
If you have big hands, the KelTec will get lost. It is still an outstanding weapon.
I like the Ruger offerings mentioned above and strongly suggest you try them and the Springfield XD compact in 9mm and/or .40, too, before you lay money down.
Much good advice here!
Alec Leamas: “practice, practice, practice” and “Remington 870 or Mossberg 500”. Yes to all. Loud, fast misses rarely end a fight, you’ve got to put shots on target. Better a .22 you can hit with than a .44 magnum you only fired twice ten years ago. Hence my comment the other day about buying good quality guns that will stand up to a lot of shooting. To become proficient you’ve got to do a lot of shooting.
I know nothing about the Kel-tec KSG, it might be a fine firearm. But two generations of police and the military have used the Remington and Mossberg to good effect, often putting many thousands of rounds through these guns with no problems. I’ve put an open-sighted “deer slug” barrel on my 870 — whether you fire slugs or buckshot you’ve still got to aim with a shotgun — and added an 8-round magazine extension. If you can’t handle the problem with 9 rounds of double ought buckshot you probably needed to bring your favorite infantry squad.
Pablo: “Kimber has some righteous offerings“. Yes they do, and there are several other manufacturers who also make a decent 1911 that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg — is there a manufacturer that doesn’t offer a 1911? And the good news: It used to be customary to buy a Colt 1911 and then send it to a gunsmith for $2000-worth of bells and whistles to make it “combat ready”. But many of these guns — like the Kimbers — now come with most all of those mods straight from the factory for a lot less money. Yes, you can still drop $2500 on a 1911 that has all the bells and whistles, but you can buy a reliable gun with good ergonomics and good sights for a lot less than that now. Back in 1980 when I had mine built? Not so much.
It should be no surprise by now that I like the 1911 and .45 acp cartridge, and even the full-size government model is surprisingly concealable in an IWB holster. I highly recommend the 1911, IF you are willing to spend some money and time on training. The manual of arms and safety procedures for a single-action autoloader are a bit complicated. You’ve got several controls to master: manual and mechanical safeties, slide stop and magazine release. You’ve got to practice a consistent, firm grip on the gun, both to reliably activate the grip safety and to avoid “limp-wristing” the gun, which can cause stoppages. Once the safety is released you’ve got a short, light trigger pull — good for accuracy but bad for safety. It takes a good deal of practice to master to controls, and perform reloads and stoppage drills.
If you’re willing to get the training and put in the practice the 1911 in .45 acp is the gun for personal defense. If you don’t have the time for all that then I’d recommend staying away from any autoloader. A good double-action revolver is much simpler to operate and the long, relatively hard double-action trigger pull adds a degree of safety in stressful situations.
JimK: “You can’t have too many guns”. Absolutely! First, they’re a good investment — I wish I’d put all the money I sunk in dot.com stocks into guns and ammo, I’d be way ahead. As it is, no investment I’ve ever made has accrued as much value as the money I’ve spent on guns and ammo. Nor do you need to keep them NIB (New In Box). Take care of them and shooting them doesn’t detract much from their value — wiat a few years and they’ll be worth more used than you paid for them new, and if you’re really smart you’ll buy them lightly used to begin with. Second, guns are specialized beasties. Your finest custom combat 1911 just won’t do when what you need is a heavy-barreled .308 with a big scope to make that 600 yard shot. And they’re just plain fun! I spend a lot more time shooting my various .22’s than I do shooting the big bores, because it’s way cheaper and shooting anything helps keep you sharp.
leigh: “you’ll need to practice being Quickdraw McGraw”. Yes, and try various different holsters and carry options. What works for one person won’t work for another. But remember that the old outlaws weren’t “fast with a gun” because they could draw so fast. Most of those old western rigs weren’t designed for a fast draw, they were designed to lug a big ol’ 7-1/2″ barreled Colt and 50 cartridges and keep from beating up/losing the gun while you chased stray cows. “Fast with a gun” didn’t mean fast on the draw, it meant “fast to use a gun”. The guys who were “fast with a gun” had it in their hand whenever they thought they might need it. That’s still the best way.
cranky-d: “As far as carry pieces go, I think revolvers have a lot of advantages” and go to a range and rent a few guns like the type you’re considering”. Yes! There’s no handgun with a manual of arms so simple as the double-action revolver’s “aim, squeeze trigger, repeat as needed”. The stress of an actual self-defense situation is immense and will make you massively fumbly-fingered. Under that extreme stress there is no handgun easier to use than a double-action revolver.
But everyone is different. You may find that you absolutely hate the guns I like. That’s okay! You need to find the guns you like. Going to a range and renting a few is definitely the way to go.. Well, okay, I prefer the ‘buy a gun, shoot it for awhile, then put it in the safe and buy another!’ But that’s just me. Of course, that was before the guy broke into my house and stole all my guns. That was tragic….
iron308: “There is a tremendous amount of truth to the saying “beware the man with one rifle, because he knows how to use it”. Well yeah, that’s absolutely true, but where’s the fun in that? :D All very good advice, and especially the part about reloading. Beware that no one ever saved any money by reloading though, they just shoot more. But that’s a good thing.
McGehee: “I was always told that getting off the first shot was less important than getting the first shot into target.” Indeed. It’s been suggested that the reason Jack McCall shot Wild Bill Hickok in the back was because Hickok was known to “cheat” when he got into a gunfight. He held his revolver in both hands and aimed while his opponent blazed away, missing wildly.
Which illustrates the Second Rule of Gunfighting (the first being “Bring a Gun”). Cheat whenever possible. Much has been made of the intimidation factor of racking the slide on a 12 gauge pump. Others recommend warning shots. Some have recommended loading a “non-lethal” rubber bullet round or such first. And here we have a new wrinkle — fire a blank first. Well okay, maybe, but if you’ve got a bad guy in the house and you know he’s a bad guy and you know he means you and yours harm, I’d lean toward the philosophy that his first warning ought to be a load of double ought to center mass. The whole idea is to make it an unfair fight.
Finally, anyone who owns a gun and contemplates using it for personal defense must read Massad Ayoob’s books In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection and The Truth About Self Protection. These two books will be eye-openers. Long before George Zimmerman Ayoob warned that shooting someone will change your life. He warned about anti-gun prosecutors and the very real possibility that you’ll be crucified for exercising your right to self defense. Thus, he stresses avoiding confrontation if at all possible. The best way to survive a gunfight is not to get into one. Yes, that sucks like a bilge pump, but it’s damned good advice.
No blanks.
And if you cannot afford the time or gelt for FrontSite or similar training, participate in your local International Defensive Pistol Association club shoots.
Training is the beginning of being prepared.
The story I read of Hickok’s first documented gunfight described the other shooter blazing away wildly and running at Hickok — who coolly took aim and fired once, killing his attacker. Could be true.
Cover works pretty well even if the other guy isn’t shitting bricks and doing the old spray-and-pray.
Try before you buy. Go to a range that does rentals, and try several brands and ammunition types, until you find one that you are comfortable with. Same for your wife, get her to try several different handguns until she finds one that works for her. Then buy the guns you both like, and sign up for BOTH Handgun Safety and CCW courses, Handgun Safety being the first. THEN get loads of ammunition (and extra magazines for semi-autos, or speed loaders for revolvers, new weapon purchasers always forget this), ear protection, and go to the range lots. Practice, especially with handguns, is important…
Definately ear protectors. I shot the wrong ammo (defensive) in a concrete bunker with my ear protectors safely around my neck. I said “WHAT?” a lot that day.
Went to the rangeand lost one of my ear plugs, so made do with just the one. I only said “What?” when someone was talking on my left side for the next few days, until the Metal concert I went to, then it was both sides…;-)
TmjUtah: No blanks. Indeed. Also no rubber bullets and no “warning shots”. The problem with “non-lethal” rounds is that sometimes they are lethal and that includes blanks. We’ve all heard about the movie stunt guys who were killed by a blank when the wad hit them in a vital area at close range. This also holds true for rubber bullet loads. And if you fire a warning shot and it kills someone? You’re in deep shit.
This all goes back to the “reasonable man” concept of personal defense. In most jurisdictions you’re only justified in using lethal force if you truly believe that you and yours are in immediate danger to life and limb. The test of this is ‘would a reasonable man believe he was in immediate danger in this circumstance?’ Using a non-lethal load would tend to falsify that conclusion. If you really thought you were in immediate danger to life and limb, why did you shoot the guy with a blank or a rubber bullet? Why did you fire a “warning shot” that accidentally killed the guy when you failed to miss him (or went through the wall and killed someone else)? An anti-gun prosecutor could easily make it sound as if you really didn’t think you were in immediate danger when you fired the shot that injured or killed someone. And you’ll be in very deep shit.
Swen, three words: Jon-Erik Hexum.
Or if it doesn’t hit anyone at all.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/
If you get anything 9mm or smaller, make sure it can cycle hollowpoints well. 9mm FMJ is a crappy round for a pistol in a combat situation. A Browning High Power can cycle holllowpoint 9mm fairly well.
I am partial to .45 ACP FMJ for knockdown. A 1911A1 is nicely concealable due to its flat profile. It just depends on a persons size and/or where he is going to carry it. A .357 bullpup wheel gun variant is also a decent choice and you can use +P .38 ammo hollowpoints, which is a nice step up from ordinary .38 while not having the control issues a .357 load can give a smaller gun. You can also get those in hammerless.
For Watts riots situations, you’ll want a shotgun and a long rifle. An M-4 variant is nice for magazine capacity and theres lots of goodies you can hang from the rail system these days. A Mossberg is a decent inexpensive choice for a shotgun, Just get one that can handle 3 inch magnum loads. Slugs and buckshot are the tradition for riot use.
In Boulder CO some drunk girl broke into the wrong house for some drunken reason and got shot.
Then she was arrested and charged with trespassing… in Boulder.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5im6MBsX9MXNzS5-xdxepL_LmI7BA?docId=f65f09d760284d5186d041585e2a016f
I know someone upthread spoke against the Taurus, but this looks pretty damn good to me: Taurus 24/7 45 ACP OSS.
This looks pretty good, too: Beretta Px4 Storm
Of course, could I pull it off price-wise, I’d probably go with a H&K Mark 23. Or some custom 1911.
Who wouldn’t go with an H&K? Who can afford one?
Yeah, a lawyer is attached to everything that’s expelled from whatever tube you buy. Or were born with!
I’ll throw in another plug for the .40 S&W. I lurves my collection of .45ACPs, mind you, but the .40 isn’t too far away ballistics-wise; it’s head-and-shoulders above the 9 mil, and since it’s smaller mfgs can double-stack the magazine, with significant capacity increase both in hand and in pocketses, over the .45 ACP. The .40 was designed with law enforcement in mind, and is highly capable. For concealed carry it’s a near-perfect choice. I’ve the Blue Line SigPro SP2340, not available anymore, but the Sig 229 is.
The cost of practice issue of the .45ACP can be helped with a .22 conversion kit.
Yeah, I was looking into that, Geoff. Thanks for the link!
Leigh —
I was speaking of that particular H&K. For $1200 less retail the HK45 is nice, but it’s not worth the extra $500-$600 over the Beretta or the Taurus, I don’t think.
ATF wants to ban shotguns which hold more than 5 rounds.
This is an interesting twist since the 1933 SCOTUS “Miller” case revolved around the idea that weapons that were not considered to be militarily useful could be banned or regulated since they were not useful for the “Militia”.
Lots of good advice above.
Jeff, I’m a big fan of Glocks, but you should visit a store and hold them to decide whether you want the full size or compact. Glocks are super reliable, but HK, Sig Sauer, Kimber and others make fine guns as well. One feature I like with Glock’s is they can be dry fired without any problems. Learning to keep your hands still while firing is sometimes easier without a loud bang. Glocks can be a little bulky and heavy (for your wife, certainly not you). Smith and Wesson (as do others) makes some fine, light, single action .38 specials that fit in the palm of your hand, just don’t expect to hit much if it’s more than ten feet away. I’d also recommend a good .22 target pistol. It’s light and cheap to practice with. Perfect for introducing the wife and kids to handguns. If you have a good range nearby they should have models you can rent to try them out.
All my military or ex-military friends don’t want anything less than a .45 ACP. I’m quite comfortable with a .40 S&W. Get the Hydra-Shoks if you think a .40 S&W doesn’t pack enough force. There are YouTube videos out there of the various rounds fired into gelatin. Hydra-Shoks are devastating rounds that leave very large holes.
Alec Leamas was right at the beginning as well. You need long guns for home defense, Mad Max scenarios, or zombie invasions. Lots of good choices for shotguns (I prefer semi-automatics to pumps, but not everyone does) and rifles. Again, a .22 rifle is good to practice with and relatively less expensive. Whether you go with a gold bolt action rifle or, say, a semi-auto AR15 depends on what you think you need to do and how much money you got — not just to buy them but also to keep them.
The .22 conversion not only makes for cheap practice but a .22 handgun is very useful in other ways for pest control or small game.
Cancel that ATF ban which was sent to me by email as Congress addressed it in the budget.
The private club near our house does rentals. Because we may be moving to a new state, we’ve held off on joining. But I think we’ll get a few guest passes and try some of these out.
Someone just emailed me to let me know the Kel-Tec bullpup is AWESOME if you can find one.
I second/third/(n+1)th the rental suggestion, although you do have to consider this: everything you learned to adapt to your first selection you may have to un-learn for your 2nd. I suspect this is one reason why I was much more accurate with the Glock 9mm than with the Sig: the Glock was my first try. After I got used to the Glock, the Sig’s trigger position just felt all wrong.
Thus, snap caps.
Remington 870, 12 gauge, birdshot
Smith and Weeeon 442, internal trigger, .38
Sorry, “Wesson”. My eyes are wearing out.
Yeah, I hate the idea of a blank. At the very least use this for your first shot.
Jeff, has your wife any experience firing a handgun? Some people are scared by the amount of power a handgun has. It was helpful to me to work with a firearms instructor.
Like you, I had small children at home and was concerned about safety. I bought a Galco pocketbook with a holster in the side that could be locked when I wasn’t carrying it to keep curious young’uns from getting to it. Galco makes a lot of nice pocketbooks that look like Coach bags. My motorcycle jacket also has a holstered pocket in it on the inside. Coronado (I think) makes a lot of nice leather jackets that are cut for people who carry. They are expensive, but you won’t walk around looking like a hitman, either.
Is it too late to again recommend a nice lever action 30-30 or a hand-me-down bird gun?
If those aren’t flashy enough, it’s pretty damn hard to beat a nice .303 British.
Seeing as how it’s Memorial Day, I’ll mention that the .303 has been on three continents.
My grampa was a hell of a guy. Outlived Hitler by 55 years, too.
…someone upthread spoke against the Taurus…
If you meant me I was referring specifically to the Slim model pistol. I have a Tracker in .45 colt that has performed admirably for almost a decade. Other models might be dandy, but I have limited direct knowledge of them.
I’d also second every recommendation for a Glock, in whatever size and caliber you prefer. They are ultra reliable, easy to shoot, and very reasonably priced compared to many other service/carry pistols. But their real beauty is that they are so utilitarian you won’t think twice about throwing the thing in a daypack, (or dirt) or on the floorboard, sweating all over it, wearing it in the pouring rain, or leaving it uncleaned for far too long. Whereas many of the other makes are just so nice that you might find yourself hesitating to bring it along somewhere lest it get abused.
And really, what’s the point of that?
Also, whatever you end up choosing, when you get around to exploring carry options look in the Safepacker from The Wilderness.
http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=catalog&parent=171&pg=1
Apropos of nothing in particular, I note the Hatfields and McCoys miniseries premiers on the History Channel this evening at 9 pm eastern. Anachronistic ultra-violence writ in the 21st century.
My only problem with Taurus is that they make these cheesy goofy gimmick guns like “the Judge ” that fire .410 shells or .454 cassull or .45 colt out of a big fat revolver with a 2″ snub barrel. What is the point of something like that? They claim that it’s called the judge because judges use it to defend themselves in the court room? Who are these judges? Why doesn’t someone have a word with them about how mashers are notoriously inaccurate and dangerous? It’s one thign to sell it as an oddity in the “fun to shoot” category but nobody should choose one of those for self defense! Good Lord!
And worse they sell a long barreled version with green rubber grips as an anti-zombie gun. I dunno, maybe as a gag gift to a boar/javelina hunter?
I have nothing but good to say about my revolver. And I’ve often thought about buying one of their Millenium compact lightweight automatics in .40 or 9mm just to see how they are. I’ve heard glock and baretta owners complain about it as slightly uncomfortable to shoot.
But a freakin’ zombie revolver that shoots .410 shotgun ammo? Gimme a break.
And I think I mentioned above how I was really impressed with the FNX-45 I looked at (I called it an FNP because I’m old and dumb and still think it’s probably somewhere around 1997 sometimes). It was a fancy SA/DA pistol, with a rail on it, a good frame sight, and very comfortable, with a 15 round double stack, and it was only around $600. Thats a lot of features for that low of a price.
See, that’s where I think you’ve gone wrong. Check out my link at May 28, 2012 at 1:42 pm. Shotshells in revolver calibers are the bomb! Deadly close in, discouraging far out. I don’t know why everyone doesn’t have a box.
The truly amazing part about the Judge is that Taurus has sold enough to warrant competition from other manufactures. I’ve got no beef with silly guns, given what lengths bench rest, IPSC race guns, and trap shooters will reach. Never mind the type and variety of wildcat or specialty cartridges that are nothing more than solutions in search of a problem (.50 Beowulf anyone….)
A .410 loaded with BB or above would be ok, but fired from anything with rifling and the pattern will quickly donut. So effective range will still be limited to indoor distances.
Any smaller shot and penetration becomes a major issue and effective range is going to drop to contact distances.
Before I bought a judge I’d by one of those ‘cut down’ mare’s leg lever guns.
Apropos of nothing in particular, I note the Hatfields and McCoys miniseries premiers on the History Channel this evening at 9 pm eastern. Anachronistic ultra-violence writ in the 21st century.
That series looks pretty good. Youngest is going to watch it tonight. I’ve read quite a bit a about the Hatfields and McCoys. It sounds like authentic ultra-violence.
Welly, welly, well.
So, Jeff, over a hundred comments. Now, you get weigh them into your purchase(s) decision(s). May I summarize?
1911 .45 is teh awesome – probably best all around handgun. Not bad for a hundred-year-old-design.
Go get some CCW legal instruction and shooting training with a pro.
Go rent and shoot a lot.
Don’t listen to gee-whiz or the latest gimmick stories; if a gun has been around a long time and still sells, there’s a reason. See, e.g.. Rem 870 pump in 12 ga.
Whatever you buy, go shoot it. A lot.
Revolvers are very reliable and almost idiot-proof; modern semi-autos are almost as reliable and have 2-3 X capacity.
.22 is your friend for shooting/training/budget.
Whatever you buy, you’d better be able to picture having it on you/with you most hours of the day. Otherwise, don’t bother. If you’re not ready to face a Zimmerman situation, rethink the whole CCW thing.
Commit the Four Rules to memory and instill them in your family and your shooting partners.
If you can master your firearm(s) the way you have mastered language, you’ll be just fine. Have fun.
It’s never too late to recommend a nice lever gun! And for those who favor the 1911, you might consider a semi-auto Marlin camp carbine in .45 acp. It even uses the same magazines as the 1911. How handy is that? Unfortunately the camp carbine was discontinued a few years back, so you’ll have to search the gun shows and want ads. I’ve had my eye out for one for awhile now.
Or if you happen to be partial to the Beretta handguns Beretta also makes the Storm carbine which shares magazines with their more popular handguns. I like the racy looks of the Storm, but hate that they don’t make one that accepts 1911 mags. Perhaps when Beretta starts making a 1911 — they seem to be about the only major manufacturer that doesn’t — they’ll remedy that.
Nice summary Red.
Jeff, 1st task: go to a firing range, preferably with the wife (I would deny premature ears of children under 10 years, then insist on ear plugs religiously ever after), and try what they have to offer. Listen to what he has to say. If you are a novice to firearms, it’s worth paying for some instruction and getting used to shooting before you buy anything.
2nd task (really, any time, including NOW!), go buy a shotgun for home defense. Then go somewhere and shoot it until it’s as natural as driving your car. Keep doing that with any other guns you buy.
3rd task: keep going to the shooting range and refining your skill and weapon options.
4th: you now know as much about what you want, need, can afford, and is practical as if you were buying a car, not a gun. Buy a gun safe, and fill the fucker up with guns and ammo.
5th: your 13 year old child should be able to handle a firearm safely (you’re car too, but that’s a different subject).
stupid ‘e…
For what it’s worth, I grew up with guns, and so I can only use conjecture to imagine what someone else’s experience is .
If, however (IMHO), your experience is very limited, you should approach it like learning a trade. You don’t take on building a house if you aren’t a carpenter, there’s more to it than driving 16 penny nails. Likewise, you need be very sure of your proficiency in using deadly force when you go about it. Hesitate or fumble, you’ll find yourself the victim of your own weapon.
Anyone can swing a hammer, not everyone is a carpenter. Learn the trade.
Which: Ultimate Glock Destruction
Very good, then I will say that a .30-30 Winchester with open sights is about the archetype of a good gun to me.
Same here. It’s one reason I still use old family guns and hesitate about taking a handgun somewhere. There are probably better rifles and shotguns than the ones I own (definitely, I guess) but it’s impossible to buy a gun that you’ve already hit what you were aiming at thousands and thousands of times.
This still is a hang-up I have with handguns I shoot. I’m used to thinking about acceptable vs piss-poor groupings and it’s hard to overcome the feeling I get when I can’t put 6 holes within an inch from such close ranges. I know it makes no sense. I know it’s a different tool for a different job. Still though. I get that negative feeling like I can’t shoot for shit when I’m hitting an area rather than a quarter.
Then my shotgun instincts kick in. If I can’t put it exactly where I want it then I’d prefer the projectile(s) didn’t go all that far.
But, you can’t really walk around Milwaukee with a 12 gauge.
This isn’t really a comment about guns, it’s more a comment on how you can get hung up on various aspects of how you grew up with guns.
. Because we may be moving to a new state,
sw pa, oh, n. wva might be to your liking. guns, God, and country here in bitter clinger terrain.
oh and nat gas and coal
Come to Texas. For the freedom!
I often carry a full-size stainless 1911 in an IWB holster using a good belt, and it’s not too big a deal although it *is* heavy. Nowadays, my primary carry weapon is a Kahr PM40 in a pocket holster. It packs .40 S&W punch in a tiny–5.25″ long by 4″ tall, 16 oz empty–package that doesn’t suffer from a Glock’s ergonomic issues–weird grip angle, rough, nasty trigger. The Kahr’s trigger stroke is long because it’s a double action only with no manual safety, but it’s smooth and consistent, like a good revolver. Recoil is brisk but manageable. I’ve shot a hundred rounds from it at the range several times. Its one quirk is that it likes to be run really wet, almost dripping with oil. I’m thinking that might change a bit as I get more and more rounds through it.
I see people recommending Glocks, but my advice is, go rent one at a range and try it out first. I’m a pretty good shot with just about anything, and I can’t hit the broad side of a barn with a Glock. If you can overcome their butt-ugliness and ergonomic issues, yes, they’re rugged and reliable.
Wow. Glock 17 is the first automatic I ever fired, and I got nice groupings. Very nice, for a complete beginner. My sum total experience with firearms in my life, prior to that, was about 3 rounds of .44 magnum back in about 1982. But at the range, you have all the time in the world to acquire and fire. That might make a difference.
I could imagine an easier, more comfortable pistol to shoot, but I’d have to look around some. I have small hands, and for some reason the Glock fit me pretty well. Not so much that it felt like it fit my hand, as much as the trigger was in exactly the right place so that it was centered on the last joint of my index finger. I’m likely to shop around some prior to actually buying anything because I don’t want to drop that much money on a gun that’s not close to what I’ll end up with.
I can’t say anything about trigger break, because I don’t have anything to compare it to. It felt sudden, and unexpected. 9mm recoil was not really a problem, though. I think getting used to the firing event is probably more important than how severe it is. I’d read a lot of books that talk about sight picture, so it wasn’t a completely alien concept to me as it was to my wife. You kind of have to split your attention up on what you’re aiming at versus what the sights look like when you’re aiming. Whatever Glock has for stock sights works for me pretty well, which is not to say that something better might not make me more accurate. I’d want to move out to a longer distance before comparing accuracy, but I did shoot noticeably more consistently accurate with the Glock than with the Sig. Again: this might be an adaptation issue.
I’d be willing to take a look at 10mm, too. Doing my part to see the world go metric, maybe.
This is a choice youre going to have to make for yourself… There are a number of very good brands of handgun on the market (Sigs, Glock, HK, S&W, etc etc.. I prefer Sigs). All are reliable… but they dont feel the same. I subscribe to the old adage, “The best weapon is the one you can hit your target with.” That having been said, here’s my advice:
1. Find a range that rents handguns. Try the makes and models youre considering. Glocks are light and plasticy; S&W, skinny; Sig, thick and kinda heavy.. I dont know Kel-Tec but that’s what killed Trayvon Martin, so they appearantly do what theyre meant to do.
2. Consider caliber. 9mm has cheap ammo but not the best stopping power. .40 Cal or .45 are better in that regard but rounds are more expensive.
3. Consider ammo. Ball ammo’s for targets.. For aliens, zombies or some asshole that just kicked in your front door you want premium defense ammo… Put out the bucks for some Federal Gold Sabers or HydroShoks.
4. Consider some training. Owning a weapon is only half of the home defense equation. Being able to effectively use it in close quarters combat is the other half. Shooting at static paper targets is good practice but some training with people that know what theyre doing on a practical defense course is invaluable… that or do a few years with a military spec ops unit…
5. Secure that weapon.. You have a couple curious little boys in the house.
Oh, and I second the shotgun suggestion as a primary home defense weapon. A 12 gauge Remington 870 with extended 10-shot capacity is <$400. The intimidation factor alone can save you actually having to use it.. What home invader (except zombies) wouldnt piss themselves if they heard the sound of a round being racked? Also, hard to miss what your aiming at and rounds dont miss your target, go through the wall and kill your neighbor… Things to consider.
Slart–it’s mostly the weird handgrip angle that throws me off, I think. My first handgun experience was actually a revolver, followed by John Browning designs-1911, vest pocket .32, and more 1911s.
As far as trigger break, the best trigger we have in our collection is probably that on the better half’s S&W .357 magnum revolver, although her Kimber Ultra Carry II and my Springfield are both damn good. In single action mode, that revolver’s trigger break is a true thing of beauty. She bought the gun used, so I don’t know if it’s stock or has been worked on, but it feels like with decent ammo and some reasonable care in aiming you could put rounds through the same hole all day long with it.
As far as training is concerned, basics first, obviously, but if you look around in a given area you should be able to find someone who offers POST-certified training. There’s an outfit in the KC area that offers a variety of courses ranging from basic/advanced combat handgun all the way up to an assortment of force-on-force scenario-based training courses. I just went through his active shooter response course in February; it was informative and a complete blast to boot.