From the Washington Examiner’s gaggle of racist crackers who just can’t learn to accept the fact of a black President. Who won. And so have responded by getting all angry and hatey:
What is unusual in the reaction to Arizona’s new immigration law is the degree of ignorance about its provisions. For example, those on the far right who are cheered because they think the law will inspire new efforts there and elsewhere in America to deport the estimated 12 million to 20 million illegal immigrants will surely be disappointed: There is no new authority in the Arizona law to detain and deport anybody who could not have been expelled before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the measure into law.
Similarly, those on the left who have been most vocal have condemned the Arizona law for legalizing racial profiling and a host of other things it simply doesn’t do. Official boycotts of Arizona are being proposed by city and public schools officials in Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland and elsewhere. Apparently, these people have already solved all of the problems in their communities and are now able to advise Arizona. Typical of the uninformed critiques behind these calls is this mistaken assertion by California state Senate President Darrell Steinberg: “Any state that maintains a policy that officially discriminates against people because of their skin color, because of where they are from, we must take strong action.” Critics also claim the Arizona law lets local cops stop anybody anytime they choose and “demand their papers.”
The essential context for the Arizona law is the federal measure that has been on the books since 1940 requiring all non-citizens to carry official documentation — a stamped passport, green card or work visa — showing that they are here legally. Today, whenever a person is arrested anywhere in the United States, their immigration status can be checked by arresting officials using the federal government’s Secure Communities program. As John Morton, assistant secretary of the Department of Homeland Security for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, pointed out in Sunday’s Washington Examiner, seven Arizona counties and law enforcement officials in 158 other jurisdictions use the program now and more are being added on a daily basis. More than 33,000 illegal immigrants identified through Secure Communities have been deported since 2008. Everything the Arizona law directs local cops to do must be done in that context.
People on all sides of the immigration debate disagree on whether the federal government is doing too much or too little in protecting U.S. borders. What is beyond dispute is that the laws against illegal immigration either should be enforced or repealed. Measures like Arizona’s do nothing more than supplement laws that are already on the books and the federal resources used to enforce them. The critics should take some deep breaths and calm down.
Really? Calm down? Should those who opposed the Nazis have “calmed down” while jackbooted ultranationalist racial purists — like Arizona law enforcement, with the blessings of all the bitter clinging Southwest crackers who live in that dessert sweat box — plotted racial genocide?
Of course not!
Because if Arizona is allowed to enforce heretofore unenforced federal law at the local level, there’s no telling what kind of disobedience to the whims of their federal masters these states might get up to next. Probably the stoning of gays or some such.
There is nothing “illegal” about being human! And laws that punish humans for their humanity are unjust laws! End racism now: tell the rule of law to go fuck itself!
We have a black President, crackers. Who won. Deal.
You hicknecked red-tards.
Wat??? o_O
Worth the price of admission, right there.
hilljacks
It is like your day is not complete until you feel the crunch of a minority under the heel of your jackboots.
Other than La Raza and Gavin Newsome, is there really anyone out there who thinks the borders are too vigorously defended?
Not to criticize the Washington Examiner’s editors, but how loony would one have to be to think that?
Actually, there IS a picturesque little tourist town that straddles the border between Vermont and Quebec that has gotten seriously fucked up since 9/11.
Jeff, got a question.
As a latino in Washington DC I’ve been witness to the rhetoric of community leaders that refer to the Arizona bill as a reflexion of intolerance. I’m talking about Social Workers, Evangelical Leaders, Catholic Priests, and basically Any Latino Media, etc (this in DC, which not as Latino-heavy as other places). There is no discussion. This gets presented as a fact: this law is anti-Hispanic.
Regardless of what one thinks about this Law and/or the polls that show public support, I believe it will hurt the long term relationship between Hispanics and Republicans. Yes, there are legal residents who oppose illegal immigration and want tougher laws or simply the application of current ones, but we shouldn’t think that this is not going to play into the hands of Democrats, who will stand as the defenders of the weak/small/forgotten.
I don’t think there’s a perfect solution. And maybe this was something waiting to happen anyway, but it worries me that for the Latinos the sense of community will weight more than what the Republicans offer as a political alternative.
Is it worth it politically?
“Is it worth it politically?”
Maybe Latinos should be asking themselves the same question?
Well, there you have it.
Juan, how many illegals should we allow? All of them? There is nothing in the law that states hispanics are to be singled out. If people don’t understand that fact, whose fault is it? Eventually, all will be hurt by limited government resources. Wait until some are denied services. Anarchy will be the norm, and I doubt political party affiliation will matter at that point. But your hyphenated American mileage may vary.
The GOP has far more to lose by pandering to groups that will never vote for them anyway. No matter what they do, the GOP will NEVER attract the bulk of the Latino vote, because far too many have become entirely dependent on government handouts, i.e. the Democrat poverty plantation, just as in the Black community.
#9 FOR THE WIN. The GOP has to repeat to itself, every day, “Group X are only going to hate us anyway, so let’s do what is right regardless of what group X says.”
The Rule Of Anyway.
JP, all the things you mention are going to happen no matter what. The Democrats always play it that way. One of the points of this site is that we must take back the narrative, and we won’t do that by rolling over and playing dead every time the progressive media makes us look bad. The message must be clear that we expect everyone to obey the law, and if the laws are truly unjust then they need to be repealed. Unenforced laws invite selective enforcement, which is how too many laws are applied already.
“Maybe Latinos should be asking themselves the same question?”
Yes, they (we) should. But what do you think? Will it have long term repercussions (for R-Team)? Do you think that this won’t stay in the minds of a generation?
The other thing is that the Democrats are being portrayed as basically traitors for promising a reform and doing nothing, but I think they can claim that they didn’t have enough support in the Senate.
“Do you think that this won’t stay in the minds of a generation? ”
If they hold a false opinion, and that false opinion redounds to their detriment, I’d expect that eventually they would find it in their own interest to rid themselves of the falsehood they’ve been holding. Other than that, asking themselves what it is they want, apart from the communal solidarity of having someone to hate, whether that someone deserves it or not, so simply for the sake of the emotional charge that results, might eventually be weighed against a better more consonant political aim.
Frank, cranky-d, Spiny Norman.
I agree with many of the things that you refer to. I don’t believe in open borders, amnesty for all, or things like that.
What interests me in this discussion is that here we’ll have discussions of narrative and intent that are immensely important for the Conservative side. But there’s this small world inside the Latino life (tv, radio, all media) where this conversation is non-existent. Should we just say the heck with it and surrender to the current narrative that just says “Latinos were always Democrats anyway”? is it possible to be the party of the Rule of Law, of no-hyphenated groups and make this argument without playing into the hands of the opposition? Is there a way of doing this or should we just hold our noses and dive?
You’ve been witness to propoganda and lies that secure a Democrat client state.
The only way to fight that is to actually fight it. Otherwise we just lose more slowly.
Unfortunately, this isn’t the GOP message, and most of the big right sites are, at heart, GOP booster sites. Given that they are read and quoted and used to drive opinion and policy and sites like mine are at best marginal and at worst considered hostile to the GOP, I’m of the opinion that most on the right are sympathetic to the politics-as-a-team sport paradigm. That is, they are in this as yet another iteration of fantasy sports — and could not care less about principles if the cost is losing elections.
Soon this site will be a small footnote in early histories of the political blogosphere. But that won’t have made me any less wrong.
“Should we just say the heck with it and surrender to the current narrative that just says “Latinos were always Democrats anyway”?”
Again, to re-raise my earlier point, I’d reverse the question and ask the cocooned among the Latino community, why they don’t work on themselves to broaden their political horizons? Why not read Hayek in translation into Spanish? He makes the same good sense in Spanish as in German or English, or Chinese for that matter.
As long as folks consider themselves part of an ethnic/racial/sexual “community” and not primarly Americans, the Republicans are going to have a hard time appealing to them. Because that’s not what they do, nor should they.
Once they step outside of their identity group, that’s when we want them.
sdferr,
Yours is a complex argument, but I don’t think you’re wrong. I think that you should consider that this community is united by culture, language and to some extent the ideal of a better life by escaping extreme poverty (this plays a big role when it comes to education levels). A family that has eventually achieved legal status will not easily forget what it took to get there (i’m not talking about the people who did this from their countries).
I just don’t think this is as easy as branding one opinion as false or truthful. Perception plays an enormous role and in a community binded by common experiences or goals will take its members’ side before the political principle’s.
I see your point: at the end this community does this at its own peril, but I don’t think this group will simply disappear.
Have you considered gathering a handful of facts and arguing the point with them? Or are the lies destined to stand as truth?
Missed that on the first read through.
Unbelievable, isn’t it??
You hicknecked red-tards.
TEABAGGIST!!!!!
And I really mean it!
TEABAGGIST!!!!!
Carin, well said. This is the United States of America. It’s not gayland. It’s not straightland. It’s not blackland. It’s not hispanicland. It’s not crackerland, either. The founding principles are all that matters. Anyone of any color, creed, race, sexual orientation can be a part of those principles in action.
“I see your point: at the end this community does this at its own peril, but I don’t think this group will simply disappear.”
I’m hardly expecting “this group” (the precise identity of which I’m still a bit uncertain about) to simply disappear or anything like that. But you’ve presented a picture of people accepting at face value what an interested party or parties are telling them. I’m asking the “told” to stop and ask themselves whose interests are they looking out for? And are they, by placing themselves in the role of the told and accepting, behaving as adults acting in their own interests? I shouldn’t want to be heard to be shouting “Grow up!” but I do seriously want to put a bug in their ears that will draw them up short and cause them to stop and think for themselves. They don’t have to follow my advice though, plainly.
Juan, as I said previously, eventually Uncle Sugar will deplete his sweet benefits, and we’ll re-learn the lessons that history has taught. It will be painful, but we’ll still have the Obama/Che paraphenalia as a temporary reminder why government reliance is foolish.
Since I’m not hispanic, I don’t know why the illegal part of “illegal immigration”, is a stumbling block in understanding national sovereignty as it applies to immigration law. Maybe I’ll ask a Mexican national why they feel Mexico’s immigration laws are superior to America’s. It will be an interesting answer, I’m sure.
Mayhap the law looks “anti-Hispanic” b/c illegal immigration is so overwhelmingly Hispanic (and most of that is Mexicans, roughly 2:1 ratio).
In other words, if the illegal immigrants weren’t mostly Hispanic, the law wouldn’t look anti-Hispanic. The law, as written, is color-blind… too bad the illegal immigrants self-select.
I think I have a solution for Juan Pablo’s dilemma: point out, again and again, what cheap illegal alien labor does to entry level workers, who tend to be legal Mexican Americans.
Great point Dread. But, sorry it doesn’t feed the very craftily made narrative. Off to the camps with you.
And on a followup, point out what overcrowded schools do to the educationa prospects of legal Mexican Americans, and what overcrowded hospitals do to the emergency health care prospects of legal Mexican Americans, etc.
True story: Caesar Chavez was *the* original “Minuteman”. But somewhere along the way, “La Causa” of better wages and working conditions was warped into “La Raza” of importing a larger lumpenproletariat for the Left.
Only bad part about the whole genocide thing that us whity-whity-mexican-hatin’-crackers are plotting down here in ebil O’ Arizona, is that we can’t figure out who’s going to manicure the lawns when we’re done. I mean, the blacks won’t do it, so what the fuck? Do we have to plant cotton there in amongst the grass to get shit done?
We’ll have plenty of mulch though. Lots and lots of it. Whole camps full, if you know what I mean, and I think you do. *nudge* *nudge*
/super-mondo-sarcastic-typical-Arizonan-projection-by-the-left
SOMEBODY DENOUNCE ME BEFORE I POST SARCASTICALLY AGAIN! This keyboard is loaded and I ain’t afraid to use it! Brain’s not too full though. Low blood sugar too. Should probably fix that.
Curmudgeon, he could always look up Julio Cesar Chavez’s view on illegal immigration. I’d link it, but why bother? Pron, not history, is obviously the reason Al Gore invented the internet.
The President calling other Americans teabaggers.
Repeat that: the President calling other Americans people who dunk their balls into the mouths of others.
That’s what statesmanship has come to.
Congrats, President Urkel.
#32: Now now, I think Juan Pablo does have a legitimate GOP dilemma. But I think we have a way out of it.
Jeff,
I think many in the Latino community see it more as a personal matter than one of political propaganda. Is there a way to present the Conservative argument with conviction but without ignoring the emotional value it has to this community? I’m just afraid that R-Team lacks strong, coherent voices that can make strong, coherent arguments without losing the interest in the personal side.
re: Principles. This should be the first question. What else do we have to measure a person requesting our vote? (hello Mr McCain!)
And PW as a small footnote? Only the best effing footnote ever created by humankind.
At least Barry would go ahead and smoke his cigar sans pre-dipping. So there’s that.
The meme that Arizona had to had to had to act cause of the federal government is incompetent gay failshit isn’t really winning the day. I think the predominant takeaway on the left is that Arizona antagonized hispanics; the right mostly seems to be celebrating Arizona kicking murderous illegal alien hispanic ass. The predominant takeaway for hispanics, legal and illegal, is that they belong to a group what is problematical.
There is no new authority in the Arizona law to detain and deport anybody who could not have been expelled before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the measure into law.
Was it really worth problematizing hispanicals for that?? We now have people highlighting and head-patting the good proper right-thinking hispanicals with the PTA mom hair and the hooker earrings. These ones here are the ones we like, we say.
I think it’s dumb.
If your border is unsecure, what you do is you secure it. This Arizona law did nothing to advance our retarded failshit country’s wholly inadequate understanding of this simple concept I don;t think.
I could give a f#ck what the GOP thinks. I’ve never been a Republican. I re-registered as an Independent(previously a Democrat for 25 years) in 2002, when Nancy Pelosi became Minority Leader over Harold Ford, Jr.
There’s a fatal sense in which marketers headpat everyone, always and everywhere. “They’ll go where we lead them”, the headpatted see the marketers thinking.
If your border is unsecure, what you do is you secure it. This Arizona law did nothing to advance our retarded failshit country’s wholly inadequate understanding of this simple concept I don;t think.
Which, by empowering the police to do something, did just that.
Why do I suspect happyfeet wouldn’t like it if the state of AZ built it’s own border wall either? Which the Obamunist feds won’t do….
Then what do you think Arizona should do? To secure the border?
Seen this?:
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/05/ny-will-actively-subvert-immigration.html
I think it would be nice and very sensible for Arizona to build a wall. They probably can’t afford it cause they’re poor though.
happyfeet’s message to Arizona. Take it bitch, you know you like it!
“Unclear on the concept”
http://e-biscuit.com/images/uploads/mexsignmay1.jpg
and what’s wrong with pRon?
The thing is that just saying: why don’t we answer by telling them this or that will accomplish nothing. I went to a Latin Music award show last Saturday, in Virginia (nominated!). This a non-political event. One of the community leaders accepted an award for his work in the community. His speech was about the intolerance and implicit racism of the Arizona Law (something I don’t agree with, btw) and the public reaction? Complete euphoria! And it turns into a personal matter: when you’re going against this border-crosser, you’re going against me. So, for Pablo: I will grab the mic next time and point by point explain why they’re wrong… and they will listen.
Within the Latino community there’s no debate about overcrowded schools or hospitals… this is accepted as normal compared to what they are escaping from… and of course I don’t think this is correct or it should just be left as is.
I just think this debate goes a little deeper than lessons about Cesar Chavez or sweet benefits (without them they will still be here, in a much better place). A thirsty man will always go where the water is.
And Mexico’s immigration laws? Do you really think that people who are illegally here care about this? Of course they see the hypocrisy but at the end they are where the water is.
You mean you’re not gonna pony up for it? Dayum. Guess it’ll be a while.
I wonder what us failshit Arizonans could do. Hmm, maybe do something about that unenforced federal law…
JuanPablo:
Es por eso que se me occurió la idea de hacer programas conservadoras en cristiano por la radio. Estoy segura que para muchos de los latinos, “conservador” quiere decir la iglesia y los adinerados y el mantenimiento del estatus quo.
Necesitan oír la verdadera historia de La Illuminación, los derechos humanos, los medios anti-tiránicos de la constitutión y la mentira que es el progresismo.
El problema es que yo no sé dónde comenzar. Tendría que ponerme en contacto con dueños de estaciones de radio, tendría que encontrar un latino que sepa hablar por la radio (que a mí me da pavor cualquier máquina grabadora), y también tendría que encontrar recursos en castellano.
¿Tú sabes algo de eso? Porque me parece una idea bien chévere.
I was thinking we could just move the border south a couple thousand miles of so. Would make it a lot shorter and easier to defend, and solve a couple other problems, too.
Have a designer cupcake, Kresh. Secure in the fact that by not enforcing the law you are helping the best of us avoid the worst of us. Who just happen to be on the side of the staunchest but not really because they’re gay failbots what hate and suck.
A wall isn’t going to happen.
Secure borders are beyond the competence and capability of our little country.
But rather than help Arizona point that out, you would rather side with the dirty socialists and sling shit at the only folks trying to do something about it.
And as such, those who try to fight the problem of illegal immigration in other ways are racist hillbilly fucktards who should hurry up and fucking die already so that the GOP can get down to the business of governing in a fiscally responsible way. When they aren’t nominating candidates for President who supported amnesty.
Yup. Talk about whiplash.
Sorry. B Moe beat me to it.
It bears repeating.
Loudly and often.
They’re not doing shit about it. Arizona Team R is just having a tantrum about how they hate the illegal dangerous murdering spics.
If you loser American failshits aren’t going to secure your borders? Please quit your fucking whining I think.
“If Democratic majorities survive the backlash against big government in this election cycle, it will be because Republicans, the party of the right, became the Party of White. A party that alienates racial minorities will justly be made a political minority, so the Republican response to what’s happening in Arizona will be a defining moment.”
— Keven Hassett, economic adviser to the George W. Bush 2004 presidential campaign, Senator John McCain’s chief economic adviser during the 2000 presidential primaries, and senior economic adviser to the McCain 2008 presidential campaign
I can make out the gist of both #48 and #50 without resorting to babelfish. Does that make me tri-lingual?
All right! I get to respond in Español (below). My point is that I think there’s a strong link between the Hispanic community and the principles presented by the Conservative side. I just think that immigration is a point where these 2 groups go different ways. The responsibility of making a Rule of Law argument, for better or worse, lays within the Republican/Conservative leaders that have a voice inside the Latino media outlets. At the same time if we (Conservative Latinos) can advance this point of view in our communities, it will be a step forward.
dicentra,
Dentro de los debates de Justicia Social que se presentan en las iglesias Cristianas y Católicas, y programas sociales en general, siempre hay un lado que es fuértemente conservador: unión familiar, disciplina de trabajo, responsabilidad ante la familia (pro-vida), entre mil cosas más.
Lastimosamente he visto como la ideología de izquierda se esconde bajo el manto de Justicia Social y manipula a la comunidad con discursos donde se presentan debates de immigración como un derecho humano.
El problema es que la comunidad lo entiende y siente así: es un problema humano. Aunque suene cliché, el drama de las familias imigrantes es una realidad con verdadero dolor humano. Como conservadores fallamos al no enfrentar ese punto. Y fallamos al no presentar un debate fuerte sobre la necesidad del orden y las leyes en un país como este.
Alguna idea? La voz tiene que venir de la gente en posiciones de poder. Los Senadores/Congresistas Republicanos son (bueno o malo) nuestra única opción al momento. Pero definitivamente nunca dejar de llevar este punto de vista cuando tenemos la posibilidad.
Siempre he leído sus comentarios aquí… podría decir que en lo que usted escribe no hay una gota de acento latino! jejeje.
Arizona Team R representing 70% of the Arizona population, clearly.
Sit back and wait for the GOP thinkers to tell you what you should do, people. There will be polls and marketing plans.
The staunchest ones will guideth you.
grieferfeet is trolling again, I guess. Big surprise.
I think you should stick to the innocent rube schtick. It is really kind of embarassing when you try to actually think.
I’m not sure that the innocent rube thing is schtick, B Moe. Do not rub happyfeet’s rubearb.
Translation: if the Democrats manage to gather enough identity groups together to survive a visceral distrust of government, it will be because the GOP allowed itself to be branded as racists by the left — all because it stupidly stood for some principle that isn’t helping them win elections.
If they ever want to win again, they’d best start acting more like progressives.
— And no, pointing out how they’ve been portrayed is a lie won’t work as an alternative. Because leftwing propaganda, like gravity, just is.
Adapt or die, bitter clingers!
no, it is not rational to have your porous borders and then whine when you find the illegal ones…
It’s stupid.
Arizonans are responsible for their own porous borders; fuck ’em, therefore, if they don’t get to building walls.
After all, who would call a wall “racist”?
No one. The left would say, “well, since you’re acting in a way that is eminently reasonable, we shall politely applaud you.” And all the marketing would go the way of Team R!
WIN!
Babelfish link for the Español sections.
Wall? How about snowfence?
I’m getting out of here now.
All the important opinion you need to hear is happening at Hot Air or Pajamas or Ace’s place anyway.
You all need to use your time more wisely. This place is an intellectual dead zone.
JP,
The GOP, as a whole, lacks strong coherent voices that can make strong coherent arguments on just about any issue. At least those with a national platform.
Except Sarah Palin, but that is a whole ‘nother topic…
Dear God if I have to read AP prattling on about fuel-air explosives one more time I’m going to detonate.
Secure borders are beyond the competence and capability of our little country.
Bullshit. A perfectly secure border is probably impossible, but a pretty secure border is not. The perfect remains the enemy of the good.
No, not at all. It’s just that a formerly-welcomed commenter has become a irritating obssessive troll.
Now that you mentioned her Spiny, prepare for some more diatribe from you-know-who.
The Arizona law is a ploy in a strategy that could get us to border security, just like cutting taxes was a ploy to get to cutting spending under Reagan. The danger is that someone like David Stockman will come along and sabotage the whole thing. Happyfeet is auditioning for the David Stockman role I think.
Something about that doesn’t sound like wall to me.
Translation: if the Democrats manage to gather enough identity groups together to survive a visceral distrust of government, it will be because the GOP allowed itself to be branded as racists by the left — all because it stupidly stood for some principle that isn’t helping them win elections.
If Democrats manage to overcome the Republican’s plan to anger Americans by obstructing the workings of government, Americans will see the GOP for what it is: Grand Obstructionist Party…Greedy Old Prudes …. the party of old white bigots.
FYI never fails to be mendoucheous.
Sad to say, he’s becoming easier to ignore by the day…
FYI never fails to end up TrollHammered on its first appearance.
I know there will never be a rational response, but exactly what have Republicans obstructed? What function of government, what government workings have gone unperformed? You are a silly little git, FYI.
FYI,
When the Democrats are so obviously hell-bent on converting the USA into a failed and bankrupt European “social democracy”, I do not want the GOP to be the Party of No, but rather, the Party of HELL NO!
sdferr,
Madam Secretary thinks the people of Arizona are clamoring for another Amnesty Bill? Really?
o_o
Within the Latino community there’s no debate about overcrowded schools or hospitals… this is accepted as normal compared to what they are escaping from… and of course I don’t think this is correct or it should just be left as is.
And so we are back to The Rule of Anyway. They’re only going to hate us and vote Commiecrat anyway….
SporkLift Driver, funny that you mention David Stockman. He’s been in the news lately.
FYI needs to be shot and killed by MS-13 I think.
Haters!
*The predominant takeaway for hispanics, legal and illegal, is that they belong to a group what is problematical.*
Why would legal hispanics be concerned? If you are pulled over for speeding and asked for your papers, because of the color of your skin, so what? You do not have a right to not be offended. I’ve used this example before- I volunteer my driver’s license to tellers, store clerks, etc when using my credit card. The reason I do so, is its their job to ask for it, FOR MY OWN GOOD, and I don’t want them to be intimidated in taking steps to protect me. But have you ever seen one of these people who cannot believe they are being asked for ID when using a credit card- I saw a lady spit in the face of a teller who insisted he needed ID before cashing her check.
This is basically the same thing. Legal Hispanics are fine- show whatever document indicates you are here legally OR if you’re a citizen, your driver’s license is sufficient. The only persons with cause for concern are those here illegally – and if you’re here illegally, I don’t have much sympathy if you are deported after you’ve committed a crime and cannot present legal id.
ThomasD, tell me about it – its enough to make me want to throw my Ordnance Corps insignia through the monitor…
“…but we shouldn’t think that this is not going to play into the hands of Democrats, who will stand as the defenders of the weak/small/forgotten.
Unless of course you are a baby that survives an attempted late term abortion, right JP?
I guess weak/small/forgotten must be code for Mexican.
Nothing is more amusing than seeing lefty failbots like Nishi, FYI, and others tell me, a ninth-generation Texan of Hispanic descent, what it is like to be an “oppressed minority” or how the border is just fine and dandy. The hubris, ignorance, and lack of self-awareness is just astounding.
I feel this weird impulse to oppress Mike in some way. I don’t know why. It must be my white-hateyness.
walls are imperturbable as… you can yell racist at a wall a lot a lot. You will not hurt the walls feelings.
But people are different. There’s no sense in leaving your stupid border open and then treating people who cross it like criminals when you would do the same thing if you were them. It’s entrapment, and it’s very disrespectful of human people what just want to make a better life for themselves and their families.
America needs to aim higher than being a very ordinary impoverished loser dirty socialist police state or why fucking bother I think.
Help, help, I’m being repressed by cranky-d! Well, just half-repressed since my Hispanic heritage is from my mom’s side of the family…
Old white bigots? Ok, question, can I simultaneously be a racist and a bigot? Maybe that should be the left’s strategy – just add some other words to racism – ex : “you’re a racist bigoted prejudiced homophobe, who fellates fat cat bankers and who’s person hero is George W. Bush.”
You’re full of it happy. By that logic, I should expect that anything I leave outside on my patio should be stolen by my neighbors. How dare I leave my grill out there creating a situation of entrapment.
You seem to believe that this nation has no right to enforce it’s borders, nor any right to say who can enter the country.
*There’s no sense in leaving your stupid border open and then treating people who cross it like criminals when you would do the same thing if you were them. It’s entrapment, and it’s very disrespectful of human people what just want to make a better life for themselves and their families.*
Come on Happy. Entrapment? By not building a wall, we are asking for it? Really ? Rape analogies, HO0OOO !Illegals are breaking the law by crossing the border. They know they are breaking the law. They cross the border because their shitty country has no opportunities. They pay no taxes, they suck up health care moneys, and many of them commit crimes. Why aren’t we blaming Mexico?
No that is not the same… your neighbors do not live in a country what is mocked for its corrupt losery violent corrupt cartel-infested lack of opportunity.
Our little country has every right to enforce its borders, but it can’t. It can’t enforce borders it can’t build a nuclear plant it can’t grow almonds it can’t stand up for Israel it can’t do much but whine like a little bitch.
Happy didn’t just go off into the weeds, he’s now driven his car into the bay.
Just accused Lady Liberty of dressing like a slut. What happened, Happs? How did you go from slightly quirky and funny to completely ape-shit? You do realize that your “arguments” make no sense unless you’re just trying to offend people ’cause you get off on it?
Yes Mr. Makewi it is entrapment set against the misery what Mexico offers its people, and treating people what just want to have a better life like vermin is not America.
Never was. Didn’t you never see Giant?
National sovereignty is most definitely racisty.
Oh, and Juan, what happens when the water runs dry? I guess they’ll just have to keep moving north to Canada, right? Leaving a bad situation only to create the same conditions that you left seems rather myopic. But hey, I got mine, and I have the means to defend it. Molon Labe!
Seeking to enforce the sovereign borders of a nation is the same as treating those who seek to break that sovereignty as vermin. Got it. People have a right to break the law if their reasons are good enough. What people don’t have a right to do is to seek to enforce that law because that shit would be hatey vermin calling.
I recall a day when you wouldn’t make such bullshit arguments, but I guess those days are gone.
Merovign no I did not say anything about Lady Liberty dressing like a slut.
Of course I am increasingly ape-shit. Who can comment on events in our doomed little country and not have their commentings reflect the sick sad desperateness of the little country what is being commented upon? I am not imperturbable like the wall. The gaspingly rapid unembiggening of the American character what has allowed our country to become a doomed sick sad weak shell of herself sickens me, and I don’t mind sharing.
People have a right to break the law if their reasons are good enough. ,?i>
Yes. They do.
I actually do agree with that a little bit happy, but they also must assume the consequences of that lawbreaking. In this case it is the accumulated lawbreaking coupled with no federal response which has compelled Arizona to act on it’s own. No vermin involved.
People have a right to break the law if their reasons are good enough. ,?i>
Yes. They do.
Then, chaos it is! Thunderdome is not far away, yet many make fun of survivalist.
Yes Mr. Makewi it is entrapment set against the misery what Mexico offers its people
Why aren’t you pushing for the US to invade Mexico so that we can force them to do it the right way?
Close italics. You’re welcome.
Thunderdome is not far away
Two griefers enter, one griefer leaves!
Mr. Makewi the point is that there is a huge human element to this what is being completely ignored by Team R. And it’s proving very alienatey I think to many hispanical peoples. This is new. Mr. Bush was always very big of heart and wise and human about the immigrations. He is gone now though.
What I know is a wall is compassionate and firm but cuff em and stuff em make them live in fear while we hunt their ass down is not compassionate I don’t think.
thank you charles for the closing
Then by putting up a wall, all you are doing is making it harder for them to do the right thing.
You aren’t making a lick of sense dude.
It’s all well and good for me to have a big heart happy, and I actually don’t make illegal immigration a big issue because I cannot fault a person for doing whatever it takes to make an intolerable situation more tolerable, a situation which often accurately describes the folks we are referring to. But how big can my heart really be if I force my beliefs upon those who have to deal with the actual problematic realities of this situation? Do the people who are impacted by this situation not have a right also to better the situation of themselves? Do they not have a right to demand that their fealty to the laws of this nation come at the price of demanding that others follow those laws as well?
Again, there are no vermin involved here.
I am making perfect sense.
Team R is on a suicidal alienatey bender what is driving away a burgeoning demographic what share many wonderful American and conservative values.
I wish it would stop doing that.
The conservative response to this immigrations problem is to stop it at its source. Anything else is industrializing the problem, like how we did with the illegal drugs and the poverty.
So, keeping people from getting out of Mexico is kosher, but sending people back to Mexico is evil. And that makes the dirty rapist socialists of Team D a more attractive option than the zit faced Team R. Is that about right?
No, not a lick of sense.
seems some people can be bought off by mexican food
We should all be in the American demographic. That would be much more manageable.
So if I have a desperately poor next door neighbor, upon whom I lavish millions of dollars in aid, I have to post armed guards around the perimeter of my yard in order for my stuff not to be liberated?
Being poor is not a good enough reason to steal… so of course redefine stealing… it’s not stealing, it’s liberating the spoils of capitalism from the slave master. Right on.
I’ve seen about zero starving Mexicans trying to cross the border.
I admire people who come here to work.
Fair wage for a fair days work.
Entry level job market for undereducated, unskilled labor is filled with the hardest and nastiest of starter jobs
Working hard at an entry level job that blows does not entitle you to steal my flat screen TV
If you climb into our yard to work and feed your family then don’t commit further crimes; don’t steal social services, don’t drive drunk, don’t sell drugs, don’t beat up your girlfriend, don’t stab your rival at a baptism…. in other words don’t shit where you live…. or when you get rolled up they’ll ask for ID and it’s hasta la vista guey
I understand Mr. Makewi that you and many others are of good heart, but I fear and kind of suspect with certainty that the message that Team R is sending… it has hard edges.
Yes I know Team R gets pilloried and demonized no matter what, but the inherent first principleseyness of border security makes it a natural issue for Team R. But border security is not the focus of late. The hunt ’em down route Team R is going is very very no-win for Team R, and Team R is the only hope our little country has if it can be said to have any hope at all.
i think its unfair that team m(exico) gets to align with team d to screw team usa
So, keeping people from getting out of Mexico is kosher, but sending people back to Mexico is evil.
yes. You begin to see.
These people what come here quite bravely and cross a desert or what have you, the system what is built to handle this problem, it should be demonstrably respectful of the character and courage these ones have shown.
A wall obviates that, especially if it has a warm stucco vibe going on.
tacos or tamales in excess can cause mental problems i hear
Team R is on a suicidal alienatey bender what is driving away a burgeoning demographic what share many wonderful American and conservative values.
I wish it would stop doing that.
Oh puhleeze, not the romanticism again. The fact is people who tend to need government benefits vote for the party who gives them more.
America is a romantic notion Mr. Curmudgeon and I hope it always is.
It’s going through a very unromantic phase just at the moment though.
Who is advocating hunting people down? Now, I know people like nishit and the Dems want to portray things that way, but that does not make it so. I am curious as to the religious makeup of Mexico. Or the polling on their positions on abortion. Taxes. Is there any place that has those numbers?
I see grieferfeet is making up even more lies to spew. Again, I’m not surprised, and I don’t think anyone else should be either.
Orale vatos, waas happenin’?!
JD I think the Arizona law combined with the eek! dangerous criminals! rhetoric and the advocacy of workplace raids is very hunt-downish from the perspective of anyone what might sympathize with the plights of thems what these policies are aimed at, and many many many of the legal ones have family that aren’t citizens, or have friends what have family or friends what aren’t citizens.
I am not a griefer cranky just cause you ones prize prize prize your consensus on this issue doesn’t mean I want to hurt your feelings.
1. Happs the more “apt” metaphor would have been the “you left your car unlocked you deserve to have it stolen” one, but the same idea animates both positions.
2. Of course YOU are alienated by team R, you disagree with a big chunk of their platform.
3. Your biggest error is that you’ve internalized the lies of the opposition. Instead of countering the false claims, you’ve adopted them and are using the misperception as a club. In essence, you’ve grabbed the flag of subjectivism and mounted a charge against intentionalism. You should not be surprised to find yourself facing opposition, here of all places.
4. Ironically, America has always been a mind-staggeringly PRACTICAL notion, which is what has unendeared us to most of the utopianists and self-proclaimed idealists that have come along, at least those that have not deluded themselves into thinking that THEY embody the REAL American ideal, as opposed to all those uncouth Americans.
I could go on, but I think that’s enough windmills tilted at for one post.
So what, are we going to build the wall out of fucking foam? Do you really not have any idea what a media and pr fucking gold mine a god damn 2000mile long wall of hatey exclusion would be?
Good God, there would be Cindy Shehans and Code Pinks coming out of the woodwork to go protest the thing.
they’re called “bird blenders” now
Happyfeet is the only one here what thinks or cares because the rest of you gaspingly haterish haters dont recognize the bestest ones only happy does so you gather up in a hate hive and hate hate hate with team R and leave happy to fight alone, the staunchest one. And also, cupcakes.
That’s pretty much my take on it too, J.G.
Happs the more “apt” metaphor would have been the “you left your car unlocked you deserve to have it stolen” one, but the same idea animates both positions.
This is not true it is not apt at all unless the person stealing the care were fleeing a desperate sad futureless impoverished corrupt doom for himself and his family.
Of course YOU are alienated by team R, you disagree with a big chunk of their platform.
I do not abide.
Your biggest error is that you’ve internalized the lies of the opposition. Instead of countering the false claims, you’ve adopted them and are using the misperception as a club.
No I haven’t. The “misperception” is something Team R has to take responsibility for, not whine about or ignore. Because it matters to the success of the Team R mission. Organizations deal with these concerns all the time. Team R’s especial incompetence and ineptitude leads many in Team R to special pleadings that routine P.r. cannot be expected of a Team what is so stupid and craven. But combating misperceptions is what successful non-losery movements do.
Ironically, America has always been a mind-staggeringly PRACTICAL notion
No.
I think they call you a griefer, Happs, because of the recent constant vomitory stream of America-hate, like all the “gay fail whiney weaksauce” crap on this thread, the oil spill thread, and pretty much everywhere else you’ve lately been.
Because it gives people grief. And indigestion.
Do you really not have any idea what a media and pr fucking gold mine a god damn 2000mile long wall of hatey exclusion would be?
Did you see the idea about using the stucco with warm colors and maybe some tile accents?
feel the love
Merovign I am very disappointed in America’s attitude of late and her comportment. There is simply no excuse for much of this.
i think a minefield would better determine that “These people what come here quite bravely and cross a desert or what have you” are the illegals we want
Other than the pals of the suicide bombers who find it more difficult to get from Palestinian territory to Israel?
For me the final straw was a few days ago in another thread where grieferfeet yet again insulted all Christians for no reason. That’s what he does, sweeping insults, and then sometimes walks it back with a “but not you guys, of course” bullshit. I only read him by proxy now, and from what I’ve seen nothing has changed. He earned my moniker for him, and continues to justify it.
1. Standard excuse of probably the majority of thieves, at least those outside the professions of law and politics. Does Not Wash.
2. Ambiguity will not save you now!
3. So instead of doing something about it, you WHINE. Checkmate.
4. Yes. And your answer belies an almost COMPLETE misunderstanding of the history of the United States of America. The success of our nation can largely be traced to ideas that are based on what WORKS, not utopian idealism. A lot of numbskulls throughout our history have gone all utopiany, and we rightly leave them in their own squalor. To the extent that we have abandoned what works in favor of idealistic perfectionism, we have failed (post office, generational welfare, at least half of our academic system, and most crucially the idiot dishonest MSM).
The best of all ideas are both romantic and practical, but given only the choice between the two, for most of our history your average American choses practical, which is why we’re not Greece.
what I have learned Mr. cranky is that many on Team R are very eager to elect themselves to the ranks of the insulted… there’s very little you can do to stop them.
This is because Team R is eaten up with identity politics and tribalism. It really is the wiggy Christian weirdo party.
This is because Team R is eaten up with identity politics and tribalism. It really is the wiggy Christian weirdo party.
Hat trick!
thanks for your endorsement how are the tacos
Well, happy, it appears that the people of Arizona would disagree that their is no excuse for this. Are you going to demand that you know better the problems they face and how they must deal with them, or do you think they have a right to decide for themselves?
Ah, there he goes again. What a tool.
1. Washes… Outlaw!.
2. Team R has become almost unbearably gay and decidedly anti-liberty. There I said it.
3. I do not just whine. Not at all.
4. We are talking past each other… The commitment our little country once had to individual liberty and economic freedom and personal responsibility was very very romantic, and has proved to be not much more. But we can yet hope.
Mr. Makewi when Mr. Rubio took gentle issue with the good wingnuts of Arizona he was mercilessly savaged. I think what you think is going on here is decidedly not what is going on here.
i think a minefield would better determine that “These people what come here quite bravely and cross a desert or what have you” are the illegals we want
Give us your tired, your poor, your lucky. Those of nimble feet and keen eyesight yearning to be free?
Ah, there he goes again. What a tool.
what do you want me to say when what is supposed to be Team Freedom is running around mandating ultrasounds for women what want abortions? The fascist Christian oddities are quite destructive of any aim one might have of aligning Team R with a respect for the individual. It’s a different breed of nanny, but just as odious.
1. I think you will find that the PW mantra “Outlaw!” does not mean what you think it means. For example, I do not recall much from Jeff about sneaking into Mexico to get a job without proper immigration procedures, not car theft.
2. Given the choice between D and R (which I admit is a less-fun-than-possible-choice), team R is about 14,000% more pro-liberty, objectively.
3. You’ve hardly done anything BUT whine, for months. Ask anyone.
4. OIC, everyone else has “disappointed” you by not living up to your pathetic utopianist expectations. Fuck your expectations, no one else is here to please you, they have their own fucking problems to deal with.
I suspected I was dealing with an egomaniac, and there you are – no one else is as good as you are, Happs – in your MIND. Oh, I forgot, Mexicans who want a better life are okay, but Americans who want a better life are just hurtey racisty Xtianists.
Why do I bother.
what do you want me to say when what is supposed to be Team Freedom is running around mandating ultrasounds for women what want abortions? The fascist Christian oddities are quite destructive of any aim one might have of aligning Team R with a respect for the individual. It’s a different breed of nanny, but just as odious.
Because babies aren’t individuals until they’re, what, 9 months? 18 months? Past that annoying tween stage?
This is where I came in.
What? Are Mexicans coming here for abortions, now? WTF?
Oh, so it’s OK to steal a car if you’re trying to escape Detroit.
I think they should hire the Tebows and Palins to build the wall and we can all watch happyfeets head explode.
1. Outlaw! is about asserting the rights of the individual against the state I think.
2. Yes, but Team R is still deeply gay.
3. I do whine a lot.
4. I’m not an egomaniac. I don’t identify with your gay little Michael Steele Sarah Palin Meghan’s daddy joke of a Team R. There are lots of people in this country that think both party’s are shit. And many of those people are very staunch. I don’t identify with the white christian denialist movement either.
I think what you think is going on here is decidedly not what is going on here.
I think there are 2 things going on here. One, Arizona decided on a plan for solving a problem. Two, others are having opinions on that plan. I think that you are more concerned with the fallout of number 2. I also think that while those opposing this law are being VERY LOUD, they are actually in the minority. Polls I read this morning said 60% agree with the new law.
grieferfeet will be the one to decide which stealing is righteous and which is not. We should all thank (insert your deity or non-deity of choice here) that he is here to school us properly.
you shouldn’t mention those hoochies what make grieferfeet’s head go all splody. bad, bad, B Moe.
I think there are 2 things going on here. One, Arizona decided on a plan for solving a problem. Two, others are having opinions on that plan. I think that you are more concerned with the fallout of number 2. I also think that while those opposing this law are being VERY LOUD, they are actually in the minority. Polls I read this morning said 60% agree with the new law.
But which 60%?
Can I steal a better car if I have one but it’s crappy?
no you may not Mr. Makewi…
there are rules.
But which 60%?
Obviously it’s 60% of the white Christ-humpers who want to chain your uterus to the Church kitchen. 30% responded, “Can’t we just shoot em?”. The remaining 10% merely stated “Get the F*%K off my lawn!”.
I am not buying the idea that we are responsible for someone else’s “misperception”, especially when that “misperception” is not honestly arrived at.
I think that percentage would be a lot higher.
We are responsible for countering it I think JD. And we are failing. And there will be consequences.
here it is that time again
sorry /snark tag omitted
Your idea of countering it is to shoot a Jew and turn around to the German captain and say, “see? I’m not one of the difficult ones!”
And yes, there will be consequences.
I also think that you have been reading the HotAir comments, and projecting their asshattery onto the people here. I could be wrong.
I think ‘feets suffers from the “Smartest/ Most Compassionate Person In The Room” delusion. I mean, he knows better than all of us here about everything<.i>. He knows better than those of us in Arizona about what to do with our internal affairs, he knows better than “Team R” on how to do anything (not hard, so maybe that one’s a push), he knows more about the internal motivations of Sarah Palin than Sarah Palin does herself, and I’m sure he considers himself THE expert on abortions and those grubby, sorry, wiggy christian weirdos that are the ruination of our little country.
Odd, that’s what I would call whining; watching someone clean up their yard, all the while complaining that they’re using the wrong tool in the wrong manner, yet doing nothing about it yourself.
Go have a cupcake or something. Tough love is still love, you just don’t get it until later in life. Conservatives are all about hard love, something that you don’t get. Team Arizona gets it. You don’t. Just because YOU don’t know what we’re doing doesn’t mean that WE don’t know what we’re doing. You probably don’t think your parents knew what they were doing when they were telling you “no.” That probably still bugs you, and that’s why you can’t understand discipline. Obeying the law is discipline, something people need to be successful. Letting people who avoid the law profit from avoiding the law, tells people that the law isn’t worthy of respect. You may not understand, but Team Arizona does.
That is not true Jeff. I do not want to capitulate. I want Team R to respect the dignity of the non-American individuals and not put their imprimatur on a system what perpetuates the illegal immigration industry of whiners and racists and xenophobes and patriots and coyotes and law and order ones and amnesty ones and not-amnesty ones and instead work to obviate the problem by actually securing the borders. Bonus! You don’t end up with a pile of alienated hispanical peoples that way.
I also think that you have been reading the HotAir comments, and projecting their asshattery onto the people here. I could be wrong.
I’ve been working on that.
italics are the hardest thing ever
Has he asserted once again how staunch he is? Just wondering.
Happy – one might question whether accepting their dishonest misperceptions as true is an effective way to counter them.
Obeying the law is discipline, something people need to be successful.
?
All Team R needs to do is take up the Open Borders banner and the Free Abortions one and the Gay Marriage And Kindergarten Sex Ed one and then we can all get down to the business of being staunch conservatives.
sorry /snark tag omitted
I figured as much.
What do you have to pay to secure the border? And is that price worth the cost? It seems too easy to ignore.
I bet the stimulus thingy would’ve covered the infrastructure, sdferr.
I’m not talking about dollar though. I’m talking about a Senate split 59-41 and a House with an overwhelming Democrat edge. There is a necessary political cost you cannot avoid. The Democrats are going to make you pay through your nose for a fence. With amnesty? With what? That is the question.
border fence – shovel ready
remember november
On the price. In dollars, not legislative compromise.
That isn’t the point either newrouter. happyfeet can hardly go a day without an insistence that a fence be built. Ain’t happening under these circumstances that I can see. Reflect on Napolitano’s remarks above. You can’t get there from here, unless you’re willing to empower Lindsey to negotiate Cap&Trade on your behalf, or bringing Gitmo prisoners to the US on your behalf, or putting in place Chris Dodd’s super-duper-financial regulatory scheme on your behalf. What are you willing to give up? That’s the question. Otherwise, what’s the point of harping on the thing, when there’s not a damn thing to be done about it?
In terms of compromise cost, you might need to replace those ors with ands.
A fence for amnesty works for me personally, and I think it’s a very good deal. Those other trade-offs are scary though.
Good point bh. There’s no telling what length they’d go to to make it not worth your while, since they know they have no intention of helping you out if a fence is what you want the most.
Amnesty won’t work for most people though, be they Republican or otherwise. So, no fence, I guess, whether it makes the most sense in the world of possible solutions or not.
The trick would be to get the border militarized, really. A DoD mandate to secure the borders. The military is very good at that sort of thing.
They have a crack engineering team too.
Hmmm, now lemme see if I can recall who’s the Commander-in-Chief responsible for issuing orders like that? Ummm, uh, damn, I forget….
Militarizing the border? No thanks. Not even sure if it would be legal.
I know the one you mean.
What alienated hispanical peoples? Seriouly. Where are they?
My expectation is that before they can be alientated as a matter of fact, someone has to have been subjected to some indignity and injustice. That hasn’t happened yet, the law isn’t even in effect yet.
What we really have are a bunch of people running arouns as chicken littles.
The object here is that in the enforcement of this law, all parties are going to have to be especailly careful to be completley open and aboveboard. No abuses. Solid thought has to go into law enforement’s SOPs for this. I know how I’d do it.
I think it’s a good thing that there’s over a year between the enforcementof this law and the mid-term elections and if you have actual alienated hispanical peoples, then we can talk and I’m sure we will.
Until then, It’s my postion that law enforcement is innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.
You can militarize the border but the feds would have to buy the land the want to use to do it with I think is how that goes.
Yep, locking the barn after the horses are out always works well, don’t you think? What do you think is going to happen to the illegal population once your deal is announced? It’s going to skyrocket. It’s going to rise like a rocket going into the sky. That’s what happens every time amnesty is floated out or is passed. Amnesty is stupid and misses the point completely. What part of they broke the law seems to escape you? They need to go home, back to wherever they came from, and immigrate the correct way.
Immigration isn’t a giant game of “tag!” and America isn’t “base.” Sheesh. Where do you come up with this stuff?
well, the fence has to come first, Mr. Kresh… after that you can have the amnesty and cupcakes.
Each side will give their own “public appearance” reason why they don’t want a federal solution to the problem, but the truth is that the constant inflow of cheap labor across the border is something that both parties do not want to stop. I doubt they even really would want something along the lines of a guest worker program because that will almost assuredly raise the cost of that labor and limit the numbers and you’ll never get a fence without something like that in place first.
I honestly don’t much want to stop it either, Mr. Makewi, but I think if we’re to be looking for a solution then the fence is humane and effective and… totally impractical apparently price-wise, but that is what I think.
The military is NOT good at securing borders. At least, our military is not. Especially not one as long as we have on the South. The previous effort was a PR stunt. Any serious effort would take a minimum of 3 divisions to accomplish. We don’t have that available right now, unless you want Sailors and Airmen manning guard posts.
And, let’s assume that we successfully seal off the land Border. How far up the Gulf and West coasts to prevent the inevitable end runs? How many more Soliders will that take?
You might not want it to stop, but you also seem to want to pretend that it comes at no cost. You can’t just talk about how noble those brave bastards coming here are and spend no time discussing the impact that such a large group of people living off the books has. If it was all puppies and rainbows, we wouldn’t be having this argument.
the house and senate remember november
You seem to be equating “respect the dignity of” with “leave the poor little brown dears what only want a happy life alone, even if they break a few laws, the cute little hard working monkeys.”
I don’t use the same mathematical system, evidently. To me, respecting the dignity of a particular group is treating them equal under the law — that is, treating them as if they were made up of individuals.
And you can’t treat people equally under the law when you refuse to abide the law under which they are to be treated equally.
You aren’t staunch. You’re a troubled pet owner.
lots of team r wants this not some much team r leaders
This idiot still doesn’t get it. The entire encompassing fucking debate is OVER the workings, or rather proper role of, government. He still thinks that the government should do everything and hasn’t figured out that that is the basic disagreement between statists such as itself and non statists such as the denizens of this here place.
lots of team r wants this not some much team r leaders
Agreed. Might even be wise to add “at the federal level” to our description of team r leaders.
#123 hf
My entire life has been spent working with illegals, either in the avocado orchards or in custom home construction near Al Gore’s new place. I speak good work spanish and can read and write it.
When I started in the orchards they had the bracero program. I was 15 and the only white guy digging.
But even with the bracero program, there’d be illegals with fake papers on the crews and the border patrol would raid the staging area at 6:55AM. They raided an orchard once which was keystone cops funny.
I’ve been on a construction site that was raided twice and the border patrol tried to pin a van load of illegals on me because I was managing a piece of the job. I’m doing the math…$20K fine per head… is that a 12 or 15 man van?
Anyway, I’ve been in jobs where if a guy shows up with a presentable SS card and a reasonable green card willing to work for $10HR to bust ass… and I mean bust ass… gets hired.
Maybe they bought the cards down by MacArthur Park last week or maybe they are the real deal who can say? Fill out I-9’s W-4’s (right away some guys start lying about dependents).
I’ve seen kids who had no education, can’t read, can’t write, (Spanish) but smart as hell, hard working, who I’ve trained up to be plumbers helpers, electricians helpers, equipment operators, crew leader.
I’ve trained up kids who could read and write Spanish into bi lingual adult US citizens who own their own licensed shops.
I’ve also seen tons of hard working schemers and scammers. A guy who stole all the paychecks and then bought photo ID’s in all the names so he could cash them at liquor stores.. a great plasterer.
Guys who made too much for section 8 or a lunch program coming up with some plan to defraud the system that I have to say “no” to….
Drunk drivers… guy who tried to get to 7-11 before 2AM beer sale cutoff passes someone on an overpass and knocks some lady in her import down onto the freeway.
Drug dealers… had a guy tell me “hey, that guy tried to deliver weed to my house last week… dumbass, wrong address.. he won’t last long”
Just when I thought I’d seen it all, here comes another one.
I’m very pro Mexican immigrant… but I look out over a job and can see a good percentage of guys who are probably illegals whom I would not want as my neighbor.
So if the cops roll them up on some beef… too bad. Tough economy, there’ll be someone else coming along soon. Now is the time to weed out the borderline cases, the character deficient.
When times are go-go good, I can overlook a character deficiency in a bust ass guy. I can nurture him along and see if he gets it and focus on his productivity.
Now I am more likely to say go back to Mexico and put your new skills to work there… you got trained up in a way that’d never have been possible at home… now go fly.
Letting the illegal ones scramble over here for a better life and then haphazardly rounding them up like they were criminals is not respectful of dignity I don’t think. I don’t think people see it that way. A fence is respectful. Solving the problem is respectful.
looters have the same problem i think. plus these looters have food.
Letting them? I would think that sneaking across the border wouldn’t even be something needed in a case like this. Perhaps you might better frame it that they take it, more than they are allowed to, and as such assume all consequences and liabilities for their actions. Maybe?
Letting the illegal ones scramble over here for a better life and then haphazardly rounding them up like they were criminals
They are criminals!
Jesus.
I said a fence is respectful. Solving the problem is respectful. Just playing whack a mole cause your impoverished dirty socialist piece of shit country can’t get its act together is demeaning to everyone involved I think.
No happyfeet. I’m not the one idealizing my brothers from the south, and since this current brouhaha is all about them I’d say this is YOUR impoverished dirty socialist piece of shit country that can’t get it’s act together. Own it amigo.
ok my impoverished dirty socialist piece of shit country can’t get its act together. That’s even worse.
#212
I’ve worked in the machine tool industry for over 25 years, and like you have trained and worked with some very good really sharp hispanics, but Ive lost count of how many times I’ve been asked, “Can you make this gun full auto?” Or, “can you make me a silencer?”
One of the hardest working kids I ever trained didn’t show up one day because he was arrested for cocain distribution. I later found out he had murdered a couple of people.
I don’t buy your view of what “haphazard” is.
Haphazard was the raid in the orchard….
Haphazard, whack a mole? really? You are buying that nonsense?
This targets criminal illegal aliens… pretty well.
When police make lawful contact with everyone, they always ask to see ID.
Some states have laws that say you are required to present a lawful ID to an officer who is conducting a field investigation.
Illegal aliens in AZ who abide the law and stay away from trouble will be OK. Their neighborhoods will probably improve.
Chata and Chayo may have to relocate their bathroom meth lab to the “other” Nogales.
Big deal.
I’m not generalizing against brown people.
I am being specific. Illegal alien meth cooks need to go… they are out there and have a disproportionate negative impact on a community. So when the firefighters get called out for the inevitable small explosion, and the police show up to investigate, I’m pleased that they notice that “hey… these leeches are illegals… say hello to la frontera… cook here without permission and they chainsaw your head off”
This is not targeted to violent criminals though.. it’s targeted towards people who are criminals the same way everyone is criminals.
Illegal alien meth cooks are the suck. We are very much in agreement there.
Mostly I just think it’s stupid for Team R to endorse laws what antagonize well out of proportion to their effectiveness. Especially on an issue like immigration what’s tangential to the problems our little country is facing.
yea let’s bring in terrorist legally and illegally. you go donut hole.
How about the illegal alien marijuana growers in the national forest that trashed the place and then started a fire from their cooking that burned 100,000 acres?
The ones we can’t profile by describing that if you see a big campsite in the backcountry with lots of tortilla wrappers and Tecate beer, be careful.
Because that Tecate is nasty tasting without lime and salt. Pour the salt directly into the can… I was not trying to profile and to say that the Mexican’s with machete’s and drip tubing who are “camping” might be actual Mexican’s and here illegally… but just enjoying the forest… a little too much really….
hf
laws and governments are ham fisted… that just is..
The execution of this law can bring good things, or bad. It is a huge risk.
But done well with good oversight and coaching… (stick to the higher misdemeanors and/or felonies) ignore the bullshit… this can be OK
me i like pakis or aerabs blowing up new yorkers its so multiculti. you go nanny state
the “white” woman at hardon u was right. de black tribe ain’t bright or sum of dem. ebonics uber alles.
Mr. G I hope it works out to where it’s perceived as a good thing. By 2012.
white folks telling black folks
we need illegals on our team d
Isn’t he a Canadian?
Yep, Nash is a Canadian. I hope the Spurs body-check his pansy ass like they did back in ’07.
JuanPablo:
Perdone Ud. que no volví a contestarle. Yo tuve que trabajar en vez de entretenerme aquí.
Tal vez se puede informar a los latinos que “la justicia social” fue rechazado por La Iglesia Católica por ser heresía y que es una mentira de los que quieren destruírlo todo, sólo que necesitan prometerles la luna a los pobres para que les apoyan.
Es difícil desenredar las mentiras cuando están mezclados con la verdad. Pero hay
JuanPablo:
Perdone Ud. que no volví a contestarle. Yo tuve que trabajar en vez de entretenerme aquí.
Tal vez se puede informar a los latinos que “la justicia social” fue rechazado por La Iglesia Católica por ser heresía y que es una mentira de los que quieren destruírlo todo, sólo que necesitan prometerles la luna a los pobres para que les apoyan.
Es difícil desenredar las mentiras cuando están mezclados con la verdad. Pero hay que hacer el esfuerzo por si acaso alguien ve la luz.
So,unless I buy the best security system, all windows and doors well locked and with wrought iron grates over them, I have no right to even confront an intruder in my home, after all I was just asking for it.
Or we could make it that the woman who walks down the street in a sexy outfit has no right to resist being groped and/or raped as she was asking for it, the guys are just helping themselves to what was pushed in front of them.
Don’t worry though when O! gets through that woman look so bad she might as well be wearing a burka and my home won’t attract any burglars as there will be nothing to steal. A few more years and border problem solved, the O! way.
O!’s border security policy: just lean back and enjoy it.
I didn’t say you didn’t have the right. I said more like if you live in a bad neighborhood and don’t lock the door you shouldn’t be too surprised when your cupcakes are gone.
Los Suns should be renamed Los Pendejos.
Personally, I can’t stand fences.
A wall is great idea but it won’t do any good if we don’t tighten up the border crossings, for instance no one gets across without showing ID.
So a hypothetical. The wall gets finished in November 2013. January 2014 we start getting tough at the crossings. It’s the morning after Grad Night 2014 and dozens of kids (some of whom have important political figures or celebrities for parents) can’t get back in the states because they drunkenly lost their IDs in TJ. I wonder if some smart marketing type can tell us how we handle the PR on that?
Game over, ‘feets.
And then there’s the whole tunnel thing. The thing about walls is there is a way over and a way under, which industrious & honest folks will soon find and exploit.
Slarti – Gaza on the Rio?
That, and this.
The answer is simple: SUBTERRANEAN BALLOON FENCE!
Mile Deep Bank Vault Door!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/us/04poll.html
That looks like electoral win.
With immigration and gay marriage in their side Team R looks to be an unstoppable force what can’t be stopped.
Too bad they didn’t have these issues in 2008.
They are never “mollified” by anything less than complete submission to their will in all things.
oh. Plus also nine political words and phrases.
Immigration, gay marriage, abortion, etc., etc., etc. are all simply means for the elite Left. Those there desiring power use them to gain their desired end but never, ever will allow the ones who see these “issues” as their “end” to be satisfied that that end has been achieved.
The Left is always assumed to be on the correct side of all these “issues” no matter what they do, say, or accomplish, if anything, toward any end. They cannot be out bid with those who have been convinced that to be on the “Left” is the only way to be, to live. So don’t play that bidding game.
Do what is needed without apology. Let the results speak for themselves. Quailing in fear before the “Big Left Machine” just makes that “Machine” actually “Big”. Standing firm blows away the smoke they use to appear “Big”. That is the lesson to take away from 2008.
But both sides had record turn-out in 2008. The people who vote on these issues are voters what vote and have mostly always voted. So they don’t move the dial as much polls might suggest I think.
What will move the dial and get new people to the polls in 2010 and beyond is the scary-assed omfg deficit. That’s new, and I think it’s what will and should be given the mostest spotlight.
as much *as* polls might suggest
Judging by yesterday’s primaries, turnout and intensity will not be an issue for Republicans, but will be a huge issue for Dems.
I’ll bet the Greeks turn out like a mofo.
Priorities.
The Left can always, in their rhetoric, pander to both sides on these issues while being assumed by their true believers to be lying to gain the power to do what the believers want them to do.
They have to be opposed as the charming, lying, sociopathic guy dating your sister has to be opposed. Do what needs doing. Match your rhetoric to the actions. That is where they are vulnerable. It’s a long vicious slog but their lies cannot be sustained forever.
Juan Pablo, I know I’m late to the discussion, but I’d like to respond to some of the things you said.
“Within the Latino community there’s no debate about overcrowded schools or hospitals… this is accepted as normal compared to what they are escaping from… ”
I went to Catholic schools in Chicago for 12 years, so I’ve known Latinos for … forever. Most of the ones I know aren’t escaping from anything, unless you count the horrors of growing up in a bungalow in a middle-class neighborhood. Yet they express the same attitudes as someone who actually did just crawl away from extreme poverty.
Reading all their outrage over the AZ law on Facebook and in emails has made me really think about this. Most of the Latinos I know have been here for at least two generations. That’s the same as my family. My grandparents rolled in from County Kerry and County Cork. I was raised in an “ethnically proud” household–Irish music, Irish dance, Irish novels, Irish poetry, Irish mythology, and of course, Irish history. Even, God help us, Irish food.
But if there were a huge mass of illegal Irish immigrants pushing into the US, using resources, commmitting crimes, and then, when called on it, screaming and crying and burning US flags, I’d be outraged. My sympathy, and certainly my loyalty, would NOT lie with the Irish illegals. I’m not Irish. I’m American.
And if the government decided to start enforcing immigration laws and that resulted in many pale-faced, brown-haired, blue-eyed people with no cheekbones being routinely asked for ID, you know what? I’d be angry at the illegals for causing that situation. I wouldn’t be angry at the government or law enforcement.
I realize that you’re trying to make the point that there’s a feeling of community and a large emotional component to this issue for Hispanics. I’m just trying to point out that just because they feel that way doesn’t mean it’s right. And it’s not up to us to readjust reality to fit that delusion.
ak,
Sorry but I’ve been internet-less for the last couple of days and just saw your comment today. I don’t disagree with anything that you have written. I believe AZ and the USA have the right to enforce all immigration laws. I think about this topic constantly, and try to be honest with my principles. One thing that I don’t like about this debate is that what comes to the top of the discussion are all the negative things that the illegals bring. These things are not lies nor fiction, but they do not represent the majority of illegal people. To me the complexity of this topic lays on its human aspect. If we were talking about moving trees from here to there I don’t think we would find much controversy (unless madre tierra people start showing up).
Sometimes I think that with a stroke of a pen the lives of millions could be affected in such a positive way: The US won’t collapse and so many families would benefit tremendously.
Sometimes I think that the mentality of many of the new immigrants is so different. Many come here with a preconceived resentment towards this country. Why should the US turn a blind eye to people who’s idea of assimilation is that the new country has to assimilate to their culture? And yes, Latin American countries are not as tolerant to immigrants, even from within their own borders.
I have no clue what the right answer is. I read people that say Forget about the Hispanic vote, we never had a chance anyway. Heck, even Rush was saying this on his show on Tuesday. How do you give the finger like that to a group of people, regardless of how many votes they will give you? I think Conservatives, and R-Team specially, will loose ground with this community, and just saying So What? does not make much sense to me. But I understand the frustration.
I guess my point at the end of all this is that this argument could have been made in a smarter way. Put Mexico and all other countries responsible in front of the line as we make the argument for Law and Order. Heck, just using the drug cartels issue as the starting point would have helped so much. Now this fight is about the narrative, and guess who has the upper hand in the communications department?
“I have no clue what the right answer is.”
You JuanPablo, are a welcome breath of fresh air in my book. So thanks for carrying on and please to continue. As to any of us getting to a right answer, I’d wanna suggest we work ourselves first into possession of the right question. And go from there.
I think Arizona’s law is perfectly fine, people need to quit complaining about it. Who do you care about more, our citizens or the illegal immigrants? If you don’t like it, move to Mexico.