From Linda Chavez, “Arizona Mythbusting”:
Arizona has just passed the toughest anti-illegal immigrant law in the country — but you have to wonder: Why now? Illegal immigration is down nationally from its high in 2000, with border apprehensions lower than they’ve been in 35 years. There are fewer illegal immigrants in the U.S. today than there were just two years ago, from 2008 to 2009, 1.2 million illegal immigrants left. In Arizona alone, more than 100,000 illegal immigrants have left the state over the last two years, and the number of illegal immigrants caught trying to cross into Arizona has been down by almost 40 percent over the last three years. So why did politicians rush to enact a poorly drafted, arguably unconstitutional law at this moment?
The horrific murder of an Arizona rancher in March provided popular momentum for the legislation. A few days before his murder, Robert Krentz found large quantities of illegal drugs on his property and reported it to the police — certainly motive for the vicious cartels that run drugs across the Mexican border to take a hit out on Krentz. Unfortunately, this one murder has led many people to believe that crime in Arizona is rampant and that illegal immigrants are the cause.
The problem with this theory is that actual crime statistics tell a different story. Crime in Arizona has consistently gone down over the last 15 years, even while illegal immigration was increasing. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports show that the violent crime rate statewide in Arizona has been cut by almost 40 percent since 1995, and property crimes have followed the same pattern.
Violent crime rates — including rape, murder and robbery — haven’t been this low since 1972, and Arizona’s violent crime decreased at a faster rate than the national decline over the same period. More importantly, this decline in violent crime occurred during the very period that Arizona experienced a huge influx of illegal immigrants, with the Arizona border becoming the main source of illegal entry from Mexico in every year since 1998.
[…]
I can’t count the times over the last week I’ve heard reporters and commentators say that the law simply allows police officers who have already stopped someone for a traffic violation or some other crime to require the person to produce proof of legal residence if the officer has “reasonable suspicion” that the person is an illegal immigrant. But the actual wording of the law says something quite different. It gives any state, county or local government official the right to demand documents from persons suspected of being illegal immigrants:
“For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an immigrant who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.”
Apparently, immigrants aren’t the only ones we should encourage to learn English; Arizona lawmakers should learn English, too. The syntax and grammar are so convoluted, it’s difficult to parse the meaning.
The term “lawful contact,” while not defined in the law, has been interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court in the broadest terms. In Terry v. Ohio, the court made clear that police officers have wide latitude to approach anyone and question them on suspicion of a crime — which the Arizona law now defines as “reasonable suspicion” that the person is an illegal immigrant.
The law says race or national origin can’t be the sole factor constituting “reasonable suspicion,” but it doesn’t prohibit race or ethnicity from being one factor. As we’ve seen on affirmative action — where race is claimed to be only one factor in giving preference to minority applicants — it is, unfortunately, almost always the deciding factor. And the same thing will happen here.
The law will not likely pass constitutional muster, but the harm to the 1.5 million Hispanics who are legal residents of Arizona will not easily be forgotten. And politicians who decide to jump on this bandwagon are in for a bumpy ride.
I’m tempted to editorialize here — for instance, I might point out that arguments like these, taken to their logical legal ends, have the practical effect of legislating out of existence the very rights of a country to police itself, turning any measure to gauge criminality into potential “civil rights violations” “not likely” to “pass constitutional muster” — but instead, I’ll simply note that the two instances Chavez sites of potentially unclear language (“lawful contact” and race mentioned as an explicit factor) have both been amended to clarify the aims of the legislation.
Too, I’ll note just in passing that race as “one factor” has, within the affirmative action debate, already passed constitutional muster (see Bakke), and so for good or ill is now constitutional in its application.
As to the rest, I’ll leave it to you to discuss: why now? And is Arizona — and the other states that will no doubt follow their lead — guilty of sensationalizing a statistically diminishing problem?
Linda Chavez should have done a rewrite before publication
That wording has already been changed
oops… please disregard previous…that’ll teach me for not clicking through all of Jeff’s links…
**facepalm**
guilty of sensationalizing a diminishing problem?
While violent crime may have gone down in the aggregate all over the state (and that may have a lot to do with the greying of the population, as similar stats can be cited from other states), it doesn’t address the long and ongoing problems in the vicinity of the BORDER.
As some ranchers and families are forced to abandon the border due to violence, the stats would show a drop because there are fewer people to be victimized!
Hello?
IE considering that Detroit has been rapidly depopulating over the past decade or so, I bet their gross crime stats would show a decrease too.
Linda’s NRO colleagues aren’t exactly impressed.
I think the harm this law does Team R is pretty significant, and for no real gain.
It’s getting harder and harder to bother defending Team
WhiteyR just cause this neurotic little episode brought to us by Arifuckingzona has absolutely no bearing on the horrific doom our little country is facing.Losers.
I think the harm this law does Team R is pretty significant, and for no real gain.
Wrong. 70-30 in favor of the law in AZ. 60-40 in favor nationally. Among your lefty moonbat friends, maybe it is unpopular. Long-term, maybe it is a negative for Team R, but not for November. I think I already pointed this out.
this neurotic little episode brought to us by Arifuckingzona
The Krenz family loves you, too.
it is a negative for Team R in November if it gives Team R a mandate to gank hispanicals instead of focusing more on the for reals problems like the goodly Mr. Howard talks about.
There are all kinds of Team Rs you can put in office Mr. Whistles, and historically most of them is fags.
Murdered white people are exceedingly tragic, Darleen. No two ways around it.
There is every indication that legal, voting Hispanics disapprove of cartels sawing off their heads, kidnapping them for ransom, and generally shooting up the casa. Those legal, voting Hispanics ought to be listened to.
Why? Why is Phoenix #2 in kidnappings worldwide?
This isn’t an anti-cartel law Mr. Whistle except for that intelligence team what they didn’t really need a statute to create, it’s just that they’re poor so they can’t do anything at all unless the legislature finds them monies, and they’re poor, so there’s no guarantee anyone will find them monies.
You’re a marketing guy, happy. This is an anti-cartel law if that is the way it is marketed. Why do you think it got through the AZ legislature?
No cartels were harmed in the implementation of this law. Just people.
Murdered anyone is tragic, you racist SOB. Just add concern troll to your handle.
Failing to mention the kidnapping rate in Arizona is lying by omission.
If this had been a murdered member of the Rodriquez family, it wouldn’t have provided popular momentum for the legislation, Mr. SDN.
White poeple are special.
*people* I mean
If this had been a murdered member of the Rodriquez family, it wouldn’t have provided popular momentum for the legislation, Mr. SDN.
If said Rodriguez’s had been a multi-generational American rancher on the border, yes it would have.
White poeple are special.
My, we woke up on the racist side of the bed today, eh?
Maybe, hf, you also failed to consider that Krenz was known to HELP those illegal aliens if they were in trouble …
he got assassinated BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE, fucker.
No it wouldn’t have Darleen. This legislation fear-based… See Mr. Whistle’s #13.
Dead Rodriquezes on the border don’t scare anybody. The tolerance has been quite high historically.
he got assassinated BECAUSE HE WAS WHITE, fucker.
mercy.
See this is why I think Team R is way off in the deep end and they forgotted their floaties.
italics are cagey
‘feets, I hear Team D is looking for a few good men.
White people got no reason
White people got no reason
White people got no reason
To live
They got too pale hands
Little eyes
They walk around
Tellin’ great big lies
They got too pales noses
And tiny sharp teeth
They wear leather shoes
On their nasty too pale feet
Well, I don’t want no white people
Don’t want no white people
Don’t want no white people
`Round here
White people are just the same
As you and I
(A fool such as I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It’s a wonderful world)
White people got nobody
White people got nobody
White people got nobody
To love
They got flabby too pale legs
That blind you so
You got to shield your eyes
Just to say hello
They got gas hog cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got nasty voices
Goin’ peep, peep, peep
They got grubby jewish fingers
Or dirty xtian minds
They’re gonna get you every time
Well, I don’t want no white people
Don’t want no white people
Don’t want no white people
‘Round here
Team R isn’t looking for recruits that’s for damn sure.
Linda Chavez? This Linda Chavez? Huh. Imagine that.
The others at the Corner have already shown that she can’t read, and I’ll bet it wouldn’t take much work to find all the ways she’s wrong. Instead, I’ll just point out that Linda Chavez serves on the boards of two corporations that are in industries known to employ large numbers of illegal aliens. For all I know, they might be clean. In one case, one company fired a large number of those who couldn’t provide documentation; in another case, the other company was raided and then not prosecuted.
Hm. Hadn’t read the McCarthy response to Chavez, SW, but it looks like we reached similar conclusions — with McCarthy putting it better than I did:
And now and observation: as a marketer, happy seems far too set on certain premises.
Maybe I don’t understand marketing. Or else maybe happy’s marketing talk is nothing more than a convenient smokescreen, trotted out when useful but buried when it belies his arguments.
This Kaplan post is three years old but it dovetails with Chavez’s thesis. People can make up their own minds as to its actual relevancy to the new Arizona law.
Oh my, like this is going to go well
Andy McCarthy makes some interesting points in his response to Linda Chávez, some of it concerning the use of language (emphases mine):
McCarthy’s prose is so tightly organized that it’s difficult to edit down, hence the long quote. The entire post is worth a read, BTW. McCarthy always knows his stuff when it comes to the law.
the nation’s toughest immigration law
This phrase kills me. All they’ve done is permitted LOEs to check on immigration status. This phrase makes it sound like they’ve done a whole lot more.
And now and observation: as a marketer, happy seems far too set on certain premises.
I keep giving him the hot tip on marketing the deal, but he keeps turning me down. I must not be young, hip and trendy.
Kevin Williamson’s retort also has a fun little observation at the end:
Byron York gives some tips on how not to sound retarded.
The hyperbole and disingenuous-ness is quite intentional, you can be sure.
Team R isn’t looking for recruits that’s for damn sure
There you go again: looking at things through the eyes of proggs who at every turn find new reasons to hate Team R.
Dude. Few and far between are the proggs who will ever “see the light.” Stop thinking that the proggs hate us because of something that we’re doing or not doing. They hate us because they’re proggs and they like being proggs, not because no one has put them the right information the right way.
I’m a former LDS missionary. It didn’t take me long to realize that you could present your case as pretty as you please and still people don’t want it simply because they don’t. Not because your message is crap
That is not true Mr. Jeff… quite apart from marketing, Team R’s icky dirty illegal immigrant pogrom is based on a lie… the lie that the dirty illegal immigrants are somehow the problem. It’s just a Team R exemplar of never letting a crisis go to waste.
Use the recession to eliminate a potential demographic threat to their power.
Sickening.
Every bit as sickening as what Team Dirty Socialist does, but done in full cognizance that the really problems are far deeper in our sick depraved loser nation, and that popping a cap in every illegal’s head wouldn’t move the dial on how well and truly fucked our little country is.
I are unamused and uncompelled.
oh.
that should have just been the *for reals* problems are far deeper in our sick depraved loser nation
illegal immigrants are somehow the problem
Illegal immigration causes problems, ‘feets. There’s a significant difference in our two phrases. See if you can find it.
Use the recession to eliminate a potential demographic threat to their power.
As you note, the dirty socialists are doing the same damn thing. YES, OUR COUNTRY’S PROBLEMS GO FAR BEYOND ANYTHING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS DOING TO IT.
The Arizona law had nothing to do with trying to fix the country’s larger problems; it was about fixing one particular problem, that the Fed is not doing its job and Arizona suffers for it.
dirty illegal immigrant pogrom
Is using Nazi imagery helping your cause, ‘feets? Have you also not noticed how many of the GOP have gone ahead and criticized the law, including Marco Rubio?
I are unamused and uncompelled.
Strange. That’s how we’re feeling about your arguments, lately.
This law looks like an act of desperation to me, and its relative popularity across the country shows many people are worried about the state of enforcement of our immigration laws. It is easy to condemn something like this law from safely prosperous streets and towns when waves of illegal immigrants are far away.
Countries like Mexico enforce much more stringent rules for illegals, visitors, and prospective immigrants, but none of Arizona’s critics seem to care.
Ohferchrissakes.
When did enforcement of existing law going back to the days of FDR become so controversial? If the law’s the problem, change it, if you can muster the votes for it out of the 70% of the voters who are pleased to see some notion of enforcement playing out in their state. Or maybe you could get the feds to pull on their jackboots and come in to eviscerate the law in some less legalistic, democratic way. Been done before; will be done again.
That’s it. Time for ‘feets to go to the gas chamb…um, showers.
Of course, one of the reasons we’re in trouble is that California has gone over the brink and will drag us along with it, just as PIIGS are the black hole that will consume the EU.
Part of California’s insolvency has to do with using gubmint funds to educate, incarcerate, clothe, feed, counsel, house, and otherwise provide succor to illegals, who are not paying much in taxes but rather sending all their spare cash out of the state, to Mexico.
You can certainly argue that illegal immigration is not the central cause of our woes, but you also can’t ignore that it contributes. To do so otherwise is to ignore the smaller hole in the hull that, while it doesn’t let in as much water as the big one, still lets it in.
Look, even if Team R converts half he proggs, even if it makes a huge comeback in November, even if takes back both houses, even if they repeal the horrible laws that have been passed since Obama ascended to the throne, we’re still going down. The foundations for the problems we face were laid by past generations, and we can’t patch all the leaks fast enough to prevent us from going down.
Man the lifeboats and quit carping about the optics, is what I’m saying.
You know feets, that argument puts you dangerously in the same general camp ground as Megan’s daddy
(up into last week) and Princess Lindsay, you want to revise and extent. . .
No no no you R ones are confuzzled dicentra. The dirty illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly people what are drawn to freedom and hope and want to help their families, which are the center of their whole universe. They are the best of America. They deserve respect, a lot of it; they don’t deserve being conflated with crimeyness and murder most foul.
The way to work the problems caused by illegal immigrants is to control the border. Team R has done jack shit to control the border, and Arizona is quite happy to send Meghan’s cowardly pussy daddy to Washington what his whole life was unconcerned about controlling the border.
This is gross, and I will not add my voice to the ugly scapegoatings Team R is engaging in.
Because it hadn’t been enforced for decades, therefore, was considered null and void by leftist “social justice” activists.
And not just the activists; there are plenty of people out there like happyfeet who see absolutely no difference between legal and illegal immigration, and are deeply offending by the mere existence of those who DO see the difference.
the lie that the dirty illegal immigrants are somehow the problem
it’s not a lie as long as the dirty socialist entitlement programs in the United States are ever the sugar to the ants
hf, I can’t believe you live in So Cal and you think illegal immigrants are NOT a problem.
are you having the same female issues as Charles Johnson?
Well, also part of California’s insolvency has to do with evil rapacious government unions, di. Like, all of it.
dirty illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly people what are drawn to freedom and hope and want to help their families
and SO ARE THE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who do it the right way.
Why do you hate legal migrants?
Like, all of it
bullshit
they are not ants Darleen they are good people
simple as that…
If Team R can’t get off its ass and secure the border then there you go… it doesn’t get to profit from the problems it helped create I don’t think.
Not wif me it doesn’t.
They are the best of America.
Even if they don’t really care about education, even if they bring their corrupt government ways with them, even if their daughters keep having illegitimate children, even if they fail to learn English and become a permanent linguistic underclass, even if they drive good TV off the air with their insufferable telenovelas, even if they bring superstition and irrationality with them (you should HEAR the urban legends they bat around), even if they recreate Mexico here instead of leavening the loaf?
People are people, ‘feets. It’s stupid of you to insist that they’re morally superior to us. They are better than we are at some things and worse at others—which is the same result you get when you compare any two societies. And of course “better” and “worse” are pretty subjective to start with.
I don’t know if Arizona can afford to control the border, let alone if they are legally allowed to do so. However, you don’t get a free pass to stay in the country just because you managed to sneak in.
If illegal immigration were the pure, unadulterated plus that you say it is, ‘feets, then nobody would ever ever ever object to it. People would look at all latinos—legal and non—the same way people use to look at U.S. soldiers, as the bringers of order, goodness, and betterness.
You can’t chalk it all up to racism, ‘feets. Unless you aspire to be a progg, in which case carry on and I hope she’s worth it.
Poor Linda has been embarrassing herself for days over this.
Seems she may have a kink…
http://hindenblog1.blogspot.com/2010/04/burn-linda-chavez-wanna-take-you-higher.html
they deserve respect, dicentra, not being conflated with murderings and thievery… and the Arizona law is not about respecting good people… it’s gross.
America caused the problem of the illegal immigrants… not the illegal immigrants.
[…] addendum to Jeff’s post. […]
But if we’re going to play the game by ‘feets’s rules, then I’m forced to conclude that ‘feets is being paid off by the narcotraficantes to spread this particular message.
Why are you in favor of the kidnappings and beheadings, ‘feets? Do you have a rape tree in your back yard, adorned with the many-colored panties of your conquests? What’s your score?
And what’s the going rate for narcotraficante shills? Do they let you hang out with the Zetas and shoot their cool guns?
Because that’s the only reason I can think of for you to insist that illegal immigration isn’t a problem.
see that is incorrect to conflate illegal immigrants with narcotraficantes… it is a lie, actually.
“…the Arizona law is not about respecting good people…”
On the contrary, the legal immigrants receive the state’s full respect (and the nation’s as well, to the extent that the state law merely enforces a national law locally). The whole notion of illegal does include a law broken, doesn’t it?
Mr. sdferr the intent of the lawbreakers matters I think…
It matters an awful lot.
hey happyfeet
Look at my new post and listen to what Gabriella Salcedo has to say to you.
incorrect to conflate illegal immigrants with narcotraficantes
Really? No overlap there at all?
you really have no clue do you with what goes on in your own backyard.
and that is not true I do not think Mr. sdferr, about the respectings… the legal immigrants are told to have their papers and that the only thing separating them from dirty white-people-murderering drugrunners are those papers…
ick.
So not America.
the intent of the lawbreakers matters I think
so, you should be excused from robbing a bank as long as you did it for “good intentions”?
“… the intent of the lawbreakers matters I think…
It matters an awful lot.”
Matters in regards to what? Being legal and abiding the laws of the US? Not so much, it appears, though ancillary law-breakings aren’t the issue, though some people may attempt to make them the issue, they weren’t and they aren’t, save when they show up during arrest (like say, being found with a kidnap victim, though I’d expect such moments to be rare, to say the least).
respect ? not enforcing the law
Unless you’re saying that it’s disrespectful to expect people to conform to the rule of law.
America caused the problem of the illegal immigrants… not the illegal immigrants.
And so did their home countries, in no small measure. Arizona can’t force the Fed to shape up. It definitely can’t force or even encourage the Mexican government to stop being filthy corrupt thieving penedjos, either. So they do what they can.
And good, lovely, earnest, beautiful people can still swamp a life raft when there are big enough numbers. These good lovely, earnest, beautiful people are shutting down maternity wards and emergency rooms in border hospitals because they can’t pay for the services we so gracefully and generously give them.
And what’s their response? Demand more. The filthy socialists are whispering vile lies in their ears and telling them all—legal, non, and native—to agitate for power and more power. And for socialism.
Oh, what’s that? Team R isn’t persuading them not to listen?
Team R doesn’t even know how to talk to white Christians, ‘feets. With both hands and a flashlight they couldn’t find a smart way to handle any issue at all, let alone one as complex as this one.
see that is incorrect to conflate illegal immigrants with narcotraficantes
Wasn’t conflating. Narcotraficantes benefit by our lax enforcement, ergo, you must be in their employ to agitate for the status quo.
well me I am not on board with this, dicentra… it’s the wrong issue at the wrong time, and there will be consequences.
the legal immigrants are told to have their papers
as is anyone has to have when STOPPED (remember, the word has been changed to asking for identification AFTER being legally detained for some OTHER possible illegal activity) – speeding, jay walking, shoplifting, etc.
and as Di has cited before, if one has a greencard the Feds already state that it is to be on one’s person at-all-times.
America caused the problem of the illegal immigrants… not the illegal immigrants
That bank caused me to rob it, cause that’s where the money is!!!
you took away the second part of that sentence Darleen.
no fairs.
in #75 I mean
I do have to agree with ‘feets on one thing: you can’t accuse the illegals of being scofflaws for breaking laws we haven’t cared to enforce for decades. An unenforced law is a non-existent law. So emphasizing the fact that they broke the law to get here (or to stay) is not a forceful argument.
Instead, you should argue about the consequences of not enforcing the law and the consequences of having huge numbers of illegal aliens in the country. Unfortunately, that just plays into arguments for amnesty, because blanket amnesty would bring them out of the shadows and onto taxpayer rolls.
So you have to argue for all the other people in the world who want to immigrate here and mow our lawns and stucco our houses and bus our tables and start cute little restaurants but who would have to be put behind all the line-jumpers who got amnesty just because they were lucky enough to be born next to the U.S.
So you have to argue for all the other people in the world who want to immigrate here and mow our lawns and stucco our houses and bus our tables and start cute little restaurants but who would have to be put behind all the line-jumpers who got amnesty just because they were lucky enough to be born next to the U.S.
that’s why I asked hf above why he hates legal migrants.
Also, ‘feets, large numbers of good, lovely, earnest, beautiful people can still become a permanent underclass when their numbers and concentration are sufficient that they can function pretty well in
Spanish 24/7 and not learn English.
Yes, the children always learn English, but they don’t necessarily learn to avoid social pathologies such as unwed births, drug abuse, gangs, and other poverty-perpetuating behavior.
If you care about them, you care about this part, too.
No, not really, they’re just looking for a job, mostly, and frankly don’t give a fuck about all that “freedom and hope” stuff.
Let me describe an incident I witnessed about 4 years ago: the man who owns the rental property next to mine is a building contractor and he was building block wall around the property. The crew of 4 that were doing the work were all Hispanic and, as it turned out, 3 of the four were illegal immigrants, including the foreman. The one American citizen (a son of a legal Mexican immigrant, he told me later) in the group was arguing with the others about having to speak Spanish on the job site when, he claimed, everyone there could speak English. The argument escalated into a fight with the “complainer” being set upon by the other two, with the foreman standing there and laughing (the only English I heard during the brawl was “fucking gringo” yelled at the one getting his ass kicked). The police were called in, both by me and by the neighbors on the other side. Because the foreman claimed the “complainer” started the fight, the “complainer” was the only one arrested, despite my telling the arresting officer that the others had started the fist-swinging. After the cop left, the foreman told me that I was only making trouble for myself. Nice.
The next day, I confronted the property owner about what his foreman said to me, and he told me I should have just minded my own business. Nice.
I offered to testify in favor of the guy who was arrested, but charges were never filed.
Not all of them are “the best of America”, happyfeet.
“An unenforced law is a non-existent law. ”
This is errant, I believe. The laws governing legal immigration and illegal presence in the US have not been unenforced, not for one second. They have been poorly enforced, or enforcement has been poorly resourced, but the fact is that enforcement goes on nevertheless.
I will tell you a story Mr. Norman. Here is a story. What they don’t tell you is that at the end of the story, the fucked up government put together some vans to pile the bodies into for shipment back to Mexico. White vans. But an American person was appalled cause of he knew there would be cameras there and these images would be seen all over Mexico, and he worked with the Mexican consul to rent black SUVs so the proceeding would look to have a bit of respect and dignity, not like we were taking out the trash.
Not everyone what purports to be an American is one, is what I learned.
America has no fucking class, is what I learned.
“Poorly enforced” leaves a great majority of people cynical about it. Like in 2003 when a couple of hundred eastern European (Romanian?) janitors working at Walmarts on the east coast were busted. Yes, they were in the country illegally and yes, they were rightfully deported. And yes, Walmart rightfully paid a multi-million dollar fine for knowingly hiring them, despite originally claiming a subcontractor was actually responsible. But hardly anyone believed this enforcement action wasn’t strictly for show, because that was about the only major INS/ICE raid during Bush’s 8 years in office.
The bottom line is Mexicans/Latinos by and large, simply do not want any border or immigration enforcement. Period.
The bigger issue is: Should the USA remain a majority Caucasian, English speaking country or not? This is the real, underlying question and one, 99% of all coommentators are afraid to bring up. Mexico has about 20+ million illegals in our country today, they plan to send another 30-40 million more. Mexico leads all nations in sending both legal and illegals into the USA and they still whine they can’t get enough visas for legal immigration. When is enough enough, senor’?
What do the American people want?
Does the United States simply exist as a place for half the world to move to and “work hard”? I say no.
Deport all illegal aliens AND REDUCE all legal immigration, for a good ten years. They we can revisit this issue.
That article was incoherent, ‘feets. I couldn’t tell who was who or who did what or anything. Just some vague stuff about trucks driving places and being abandoned or hijacked or something.
Bad, bad reporting.
The bottom line is Mexicans/Latinos by and large, simply do not want any border or immigration enforcement. Period.
I don’t believe it. Neither does Gabriella Salcedo.
The bigger issue is: Should the USA remain a majority Caucasian, English speaking country or not?
Couldn’t care less. Will it be classically liberal? Now that’s worth bothering about.
I think Arizonans should take steps to do what they think is right for their state, regardless of November.
Statistics may say the problem is diminishing (for now).
I see it like the horse may already be out of the barn… but that is no reason not to get to work and clean out the barn
The way to appeal to hispanics… and I should just use “mexican” because 99% of hispanics in Arizona are of Mexican descent…. but I won’t.
So anyway, with 70%-30% approval the Arizona “R’s” do have a chance here to pick up independents and conservative hispanics.
The law just needs to be based firmly on the language of common sense and focus on the costs to the individual legal hispanic taxpayer.
Unemployed legal hispanics don’t like to see illegals taking their jobs.
Taxpaying legal hispanics don’t like to see illegals working under the table.
Taxpaying legal hispanics in these hard times don’t want to pay for health care for illegals… health care needs that are free for illegals in our border towns can be had back across the border in their native state of Mexico,; go home and have your baby there.
Legal hispanic taxpayers don’t like paying for section 8 housing to hispanic illegals, when legal hispanics are competing on the same housing list. Plus the illegals overcrowd the housing and force the legal hispanics to live in more crowded conditions.
Taxpaying hispanics don’t like having their schools overcrowded due to a high influx of illegals.
Taxpaying hispanics don’t like paying for high incarceration costs for illegals who have committed further crimes and nor do they like having illegal alien gang members in their neighborhoods
In other words, for November, drive a wedge into the hispanic vote using the high costs to the legal hispanic family.
The new law needs to be presented on its own and the simple common sense message AZ politicians should stick to is: We want illegal aliens who commit crimes here to be deported.
We appreciate the support shown by the hispanic community. The hispanic community is hit the hardest by the high costs criminal illegal aliens bring; often right next door.
We want to stop spending your hard earned dollars on criminal activity, in AZ it works out to $$$ per hard working taxpayer a year.
We’d rather let you keep your money…
Should the USA remain a majority Caucasian, English speaking country or not?
Bullshit. We don’t care about the Caucasian part. English-speaking is important only because a language-segregated country is an unhappy country. English is the official language of the USA and there’s no reason that should change.
Begone, moby. Your stench is overwhelming.
Should the USA remain a majority Caucasian, English speaking country or not?
The United States should remain a Constitutional Republic based on its three guiding principles: Liberty, E Pluribus Unum, and In God We Trust. English should remain the official language. Race is of no consequence since melanin levels do not indicate character or morality.
Americanism needs to be taught, learned and passed down.
I don’t care what American’s look like only what they think and believe.
It’s just a story about how immigrants died like animals. Not a story that white Christians would have any reason to give a shit about.
Fuck you, happyfeet, and the high horse you rode in on. You have become a major troll around here, and really deserve no respect from anyone.
It’s just a story about how immigrants died like animals.
Unlike the victims of the Zetas and narcotraficantes. Sob-stories mean nothing, ‘feets.
But please tell me exactly how that article indicts White Christians such as myself. What’s the point except to accuse me of horrible things?
cranky white Christian Team R doesn’t give a shit about basic human dignity… they want to class a whole lot of good people as vicious sub-human criminals… and they want to do it for political advantage. Sick sick sick. And yes it’s transparently bigoted and racist.
Buenos suerte with that in the future.
It’s “Sob-stories mean nothing, ‘feets” what indicts you, not the article.
cranky white Christian Team R doesn’t give a shit about basic human dignity
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU??
or should I say, who is it now you WANT to fuck that has got you into such a mendacious, slandering mood?
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
Fuck you, happyfeet, and the high horse you rode in on. You have become a major troll around here, and really deserve no respect from anyone.
I concur, lectures on morality from him might be insulting if he had any moral standing left.
Darleen you want to treat these people like animals, herd em up and ship em out.
That’s something poor loser countries what can’t afford border security do.
Aim higher.
Funny how the arguments have morphed from a ‘concern’ for the electoral success of ‘Team R’ to emotional appeals regarding the sanctity of human life.
Well, not really funny.
What’s with the ridiculous Nishi-like strawmen?
What they don’t tell you is that at the end of the story, the fucked up government put together some vans to pile the bodies into for shipment back to Mexico. White vans. But an American person was appalled cause of he knew there would be cameras there and these images would be seen all over Mexico, and he worked with the Mexican consul to rent black SUVs so the proceeding would look to have a bit of respect and dignity, not like we were taking out the trash.
I’m sure you have a link to that “untold” part, right?
Fuck you, happyfeet, I have remembered the sympathy towards the victims and the outrage towards the “coyotes”…but of course it’s Whitey’s fault.
Fuck you.
white Christian Team R doesn’t give a shit about basic human dignity… they want to class a whole lot of good people as vicious sub-human criminals
And you want to class a whole lot of White Christian Team Rs as filthy Nazis who are readying the cattle cars.
But it’s OK to smear them, because they’re White Christian Team Rs.
herd em up and ship em out.
Nobody on Team R has ever advocated that and you know it.
Double standards, name-calling, valuing sentiment over logic, strawmen, attributing vile sentiment to people with whom you disagree, and rhetorically distancing yourself from your peers (“your little country”).
Congratulations, ‘feets. Your transformation into a progg is going along swimmingly. Hope she’s worth it.
It’s “Sob-stories mean nothing, ‘feets” what indicts you, not the article.
Because sob stories are a dime a dozen, and you can produce piles and piles of them to prove any point you please.
But thanks for willfully misinterpreting my intent, attributing “means nothing” to a vile heartlessness on my part rather than a refutation of a bad method of argumentation.
Because me? I hardly ever talk about bad argumentation methods and logical fallacies (which sob-stories are). I mostly sit around here and bad-mouth hundreds of millions of people because of their optics.
Yes, ‘feets. That’s me in a nutshell: raaaaacist, filthy Xtianist, bigot, arguer in bad faith. That’s me.
Only happy, nishi, and the others who see the basic Naziness in everyone else give a shit about basic human dignity.
Unless it’s tiny and potentially inconvenient. In which case, scramble its brain and suck it out with a vaccuum.
Yes I have a link to the untold part. I was there, looking at the faces of the men who found the bodies, listening to their silence, and listening to the phone calls of the arrangements, and it was impressed upon me deeply, that what we do, what my people do, is we a lot respect the common humanity we share with the illegal ones, and how to treat them is an issue what is as much a cut and dried wwjd issue as you’re ever going to find in this sick fallen world.
And I am not a progg I am the staunchest one.
You twists things, you do.
You twists things, you do.
pure projection
#105 – but don’t ask him about abortion… shudder.
Hf, you accuse people in this country of wanting a pogrom? You need to step back and clear your head. You want to know about pogroms? I’d be happy to sit down with you and tell you all about them – most of the Hazara and Bosniaks I would have help me in my tale can’t – they are dead. And if you are blanket accusing any supporter of this law of wanting or being involved in a “porgom”, I’m done with you.
I think that can happen here Mr. LTC.
Unprecedented is the watchword of these sad times.
Fuck you, feets.
There’s been enough of your shit around here for a long time.
You’re a nothing.
And our little country has proven many times over recently that she is not at all necessarily of good character, and the economic misery is only barely beginning.
perilous.
Good character = doing what happy wants done.
See? He really does stand alone.
The staunchest, though? Hardly.
tiresome
hf – so you are saying that the police, National Guard, posses, et al are going to start roaming America and killing people based on a perceived Otherness? Mobs of Methodists? Rioting Rotary Clubs? Are the Moose going to have “Pogrom Night and BBQ”? Kendall County Sherrif and State’s Attorney sponsir “Night Out to Kill and Maim”?
Honestly, you are starting to drift into strangeness.
And you haven’t answered my question about your characterization of supporters of this law as being guilty of wanting or actually starting “pogroms”.
I am pretty darn staunchy, mister.
Good character is not agitating against the poor impoverished impotent Other, which is what a lot of Team R is merrily aboot, on purpose or not.
I am not having any part of it.
And I need spell check…
Not staunch in the “ou-wow, that’s a pretty copiously bleeding wound you’ve got there, let me stanch that blood-flow for ya there — we’ll just call 9-11 in a sec. ” sense, is it?
I used the word pogrom figuratively LTC, cause of I can imagine that’s the akin to the perception of the illegal ones and also to some of the other hispanicals to some degree, but I would also caution that we are entering an era of unprecedented unprecedentedness.
Don’t put nuffin past nobody.
*that’s the akin* should just be *that’s akin*
I don’t see illegals as a bleeding wound, if that’s what you mean. It’s a problem what doesn’t move the dial even a little on the meter of the overall doomed unsustainability of our sad little country.
I’m actually getting a tad nostalgic for the days when hf was spewing all over Sarah Palin. Back then there was still some question as to whether he was being ugly or downright fugly.
Now we know: he’s fyoogly.
That’s of course not what I mean. The bleeding victim-whatever is liberty in the United States as it was once understood. Has little to do with illegals directly. Seems to me that you would want to focus on the principle parts of the stanching, rather than on trivialities in a time of unprecedented unprecedentedness.
You know what else stands alone? The cheese.
I think you are way off here, hf, and it saddens me to no end that you will accuse people of such terrible things like this.
I really do hope you will step back and look at what you are saying about people on this site, those in AZ and across the ccountry – who happen to disagree with you.
I’m done for now, I have to go back to help get some Guard units ready for the pogroms, er…disaster response.
oh. I understand Mr. sdferr, and you are quite right. Sorry.
Go off to get lunch and this thread has gone all WTF.
In the way of principles and just because the older thread isn’t going to be getting many more visits, I think I ought to post this link here as well. Just found this morning, it’s a link to Madison’s Notes of Debates in Federal Convention 1787 and for the bookmarkers among ya who like to have source material at hand, it’s a good ‘un.
Here is what I said Mr. LTC…
And I really think we’re sitting here watching Team R make a horribly dumb mistake.
Whether or not people get actually killed is hardly the point. Team R is paving the way for Team Dirty Socialist’s enduring domination.
People are definitely gonna get hurt.
Why does happyfeet hate white people? And when will there be a mobile version of TrollHammer?
Darleen’s very incisive post about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has seven comments.
This is just a bad situation.
Balloon Juice probably has some room for another commenter, grieferfeet.
I’m not progressive at all not even a little, cranky. I have to go I love you all.
Then why do you insist on using their arguments?
Hey, thanks for that link, sdferr. I’ll have to click around through there.
wrong issue, wrong time…
that is not a proggly argument I don’t think.
“Go off to get lunch and this thread has gone all WTF.”
Food is a crutch bh;-),
First rule of hall monitoring:
If you let your guard down chaos ensues. NEVER turn your back on hall duty.
“NEVER turn your back on hall duty.”
Did not have my hand down what’s-her-name’s pants. It’s a lie, I tell ya. Did not. We were only adjusting her thong that other kid wedggied.
“We were only adjusting her thong that other kid wedggied.”
It’s always the second foul that gets the whistle, sdferr.
Any good hockey fan knows that;-)
If the Rodriguez family member were a) citizens, or b) LEGAL immigrants, it would have provided just as much momentum as far as ANYONE (besides the trolls like you) are concerned.
‘feets, you are pushing into thor territory. Of course, he claimed to be from Texas too.
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
We’re talking about a very good burrito though, Danger.
I don’t think so SDN. Team R is dishonestly conflating illegal aliens with violent drug cartels to whip up the xenophobic enthusiasms of their very white, economically insecure base. Brown victims don’t do the trick.
“We’re talking about a very good burrito though, Danger.”
The border guards said the same thing. Which is probably what started this whole mess;-)
El Paso TX has a serious illegal alien/drug cartel problem. Most border points of entry do.
Hispanics are as economically insecure as white people; perhaps more.
illegal alien/drug cartel
you’re not even trying to hide it jeez
It’s just so wrong.
Team R is dishonestly conflating illegal aliens with violent drug cartels to whip up the xenophobic enthusiasms of their very white, economically insecure base. Brown victims don’t do the trick.
You lie.
I do not lie Darleen I tell you the truth. There is no reason right now for people to be in a tizzy about illegal immigrants… nobody contests Linda’s factual facts.
This is a manufactured tizzy what Team R is trying to exploit.
They make me sick. Like to where I could puke but not really cause that would be gross.
There is no reason right now for people to be in a tizzy about illegal immigrants
so when is it the “right time” to be finally fed up with paying through the nose – with money, jobs and blood – because the Feds won’t do their job?
and who appointed YOU grand poobah of what is Politically Correct Behavior on the part of Americans who believe in American sovereignty?
Why do you continue to piss on the grave of everyone who has been a victim of an illegal alien?
Why do you hate legal migrants, hf?
This is a manufactured tizzy what Team R is trying to exploit
THAT is the absolute LIE, fucker. Team R would have LOVED that this not come up and distracted from ObamaCare, etc.
Link me where Team R snuck into AZ legislature and bribed ’em to introduce and pass it. Link me where TEam R went out and murdered Krenz. Link me where the 70% of Arizonans…meaning a good chunk of Democrats and Independents including Latinos …were bribed or threatened by Team R in supporting this law.
Fuck your lies, hf. Fuck your shitting on America.
We’ll see Darleen… from what I can tell Team R is licking up the illegal immigrant hate and asking for more. Team R ultimately doesn’t have a choice… they are the white people party… in an increasingly not-white country… but why don’t we do another post and help spread the word about the murderous dirty illegal immigrants Team R doesn’t want to talk about.
from what I can tell Team R is licking up the illegal immigrant hate and asking for more
Where? Marc Rubio? or any of the other cautious, thoughtful statements from Team R?
STOP YOUR LYING and fuck your racism. Get the HELL out of my country.
Marco Rubio was chained up and dragged behind a truck at Hot Air for his cautious thoughtful statements, Darleen.
This wasn’t an issue Team R was in a position to deal with responsibly, and they will pay a heavy price for aligning themselves with Arizona’s dishonest illegal immigrant/murderous drug thug conflation down the road I think.
In the comments at Hot Air I mean… Mr. Allah saw real fast how playing with fire the issue was.
“Marco Rubio was chained up and dragged behind a truck at Hot Air”
Rule 1A for Team Outlaw:
Hot Air ain’t Team Outlaw either.
Arizona’s dishonest illegal immigrant/murderous drug thug conflat
Why do support child murderers?
Hot Air commenters are largely on Team Butt-Stupid Ass-End Of Team R and as such they are very informative cause of they are the squeaky wheel I think, Danger.
Wow, just wow.
Let’s see. Willfully misreading intent and assigning malicious racism to people you have known for years? Check. Blaming America? Check. Now, if yoiu could somehow work Sarah Palin into your little diatribe you would hit the progg trifecta.
You’re staunch, feet. Just not in the way you think.
Might as well go all the way, feet, and crank it to 11.
I hate Sarah Palin she’s so stupid I hate her stupid face.
“Team R ultimately doesn’t have a choice… they are the white people party…”
You do Walt Williams, Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell a great disservice with generalizations like that Feets.
Try more honey and less vinegar in your recipe if you want a tastier cake.
Mr. Danger Team R is not fighting their destiny very hard when they conflate legal residents with illegal immigrants with murderous drug thugs.
Team R is in big increasingly-homogeneous trouble I think is the upshot of all this.
In the space of a week you’ve gone from arguing that this was a political mistake all the way to accusing team R of being all white and nazis. Congrats feet. Your journey to the dark side is now complete. Nishi must be a tiger in the sack.
Every team has a “Butt-Stupid Ass-End” Feets
We try to keep that end of Team Outlaw on the bench. Sometimes they are helpful when we need to practice or when we are thirsty;-)
Mr. Danger Team R is not fighting their destiny very hard when they conflate legal residents with illegal immigrants with murderous drug thugs.
You are the only one doing that here. The rest of us are smart enough to know that they are but two sides of a multifaceted issue.
I’m not doing that here Mr. Big D Darleen is… what do you think she means when she asks if I support murdering children when I don’t support stopping legal residents of Arizona to make sure they are Americans?
It’s just awful. Team R has very little time to shake the noose it’s been painted into and they’re not even trying.
Danger it’s awful I don’t know how this can be fixed anymore. Marco Rubio for vice president?
Maybe. There’s hopefulness in that.
Very transparent pandery hopefulness, but for sure he’ll be more impressive than the last one.
Yeah, you are. Shake the noose they’ve been painted into? How about you put down the paint brush?
“Mr. Danger Team R is not fighting their destiny very hard when they conflate legal residents with illegal immigrants with murderous drug thugs.”
I have not seen evidence of the legal and illegal conflating but the illegal/murderous drug thug conflating is not all conflating is it?
what do you think she means when she asks if I support murdering children
using your tactics, hf
I don’t support stopping legal residents of Arizona to make sure they are Americans?
Come out of the PAST, hf. The law was tightened up … police will only be figuring out who is legal or not AFTER a lawful STOP (no longer “contact”).
What? You think when you are stopped for speeding you shouldn’t have to show your driver’s license?
and hf
why do YOU ignore that the revolving door at the border and the REFUSAL of the Feds to do their jobs is what allows illegals to come and go and come again and commit crimes that would have never happened if they stayed DEPORTED?
Keep supporting open borders, hf. The blood of future victims of illegals that should not be here in the first place is on YOUR hands.
Good character is not agitating against the poor impoverished impotent Other
Looking at this issue as rich against poor is proggie stuff, hf, hence my characterization of you as one of them, and so is imagining that opponents of ILLEGAL immigration are itching for a pogrom.
But you did say you’d pull back on this kind of rhetoric in the other thread, so I’ll stop now.
Team R tried pandering on this issue, didn’t they HF? Worked out real well didn’t it? Who was that guy at the forefront? Hmmm, it’ll come to me in a minute. Oh yeah, the guy you so lovingly call “Meghan’s cowardly Daddy.”
“Danger it’s awful I don’t know how this can be fixed anymore. Marco Rubio for vice president?”
Mmmm, tastes like Honey, I’d try more of it if I were you.
I will do rethinking but that means I have to be quiet about the immigration stuff for awhile.
I still have very fatalistic ideas about how Team R comes out on the other side of this business.
Oh yeah, the guy you so lovingly call “Meghan’s cowardly Daddy.”
that’s kind of ironic, huh?
What’s ironic is that you are in lockstep with the two senators who have been the target of your most vitriolic insults – Princess Lindsey and Meghan’s Daddy. That should give you pause HF, but it won’t.
I am not in lockstep, Mr. Big D. I want a controlled border, and then I want amnesty for our illegal friends but not til the deficit is balanced. I like the incentive structure of that.
Nothing gives grieferfeet pause beyond what he sees when he gazes at his own navel. He blatantly insults people here on a regular basis, and then bitches when he is rightly called a troll.
gov. brewer as hitler’s daughter
green cards no citizenship
ok but I think citizenship is friendlier and if there’s no threat of a new batch I don’t see what the problem is…
well there you go…
see I told you she would make good fodder for Nazi-flavored propaganders.
Reward illegals with citizenship? Perhaps you should revisit Ric’s rule about ants and sugar.
Oh, and being fiscally responsible while importing 15-20 million low skilled workers? What’s the term I’m looking for? Hmmm…Diametrically opposed.
ok but I think citizenship is friendlier and if there’s no threat of a new batch I don’t see what the problem is…
We tried that once, HF. Maybe you should go read about that. Then you might understand why we are opposed to amnesty. Grant amnesty and there will be another batch.
That’s after we secure the border Mr. Big D. With walls and soldiers and drones. But on our side of the wall people need to be a damn sight freer than they are I think though a lot of it’s cause there’s dirty socialist cocksuckers in charge of everything.
let ’em be green carded for 10 years for breaking the law
godwin’s law or sumthing
Hello. Hey, I don’t feel like busting on happyfeet for being wrong.
It’s a good-faith kind of wrong. If I understand him, anyway.
The hard reality is, not everyone who wants to come to this country is, or should be allowed to come in, and not everyone can be allowed to live and work here. There are no open borders in LAW, nor should there be.
People who come from Mexico bring a unique set of problems with them; most of the problems are cultural, not racial, and I think its racist to tie the two together.
It’s not racist, though, to say they can’t all come here and work and live at their choosing.
It’s not racist to notice that flagrantly violated immigration laws cause problems for citizens and legal residents of the US.
Why is it “UnAmerican” to ask people stopped or arrested to show ID, when there is a reasonable suspicion that person is an immigrant, but has no legal presence in this country?
Is it because of feared hassling of citizens on pretext? Legal immigrants, who are already required to keep papers on their person in public? Or is it because the law will catch, and therefore disappoint, citizens of another country, who took their chances and came here without permission or invitation?
All but the first of those situations are very acceptable to me.
Why aren’t they to you, Happyfeet? Don’t you believe the State of Arizona has some stake in controlling a problem with law-breaking within its borders?
Ten years but that’s a for sure firm offer.
That’s after we secure the border Mr. Big D. With walls and soldiers and drones.
Go ahead and propose that HF. What do you think you will be called? It will begin with racist and nazi and get worse from there. That might be an own goal on your part, HF. Got to think of the optics, right?
Hi Sarah I am very very pro border security, but my feel is that if we’re not going to secure our borders then we need to suck it up about there being non-citizens here. I also think the law as designed is dishonest – this isn’t about reducing law-breakings it’s about capturing and deporting more illegal aliens. The “law-breakings” will be of the most mundane sort… the people what killed that guy will be unperturbed by this law.
But honestly what I am reacting to is the tone of it. Illegal aliens are not the same as violent criminals by a longshot, these are people’s abuelitas and titos and hermanos and it’s just disrespectful to label them as being crimey and hunt them like perros.
But more than that I think that this issue threatens to overwhelm the salience of Tea Party issues, and tyhat would be very sad to me. I will think more about Noonan’s overarchyness that dicentra linked, but for that to work there will need to be a different tone I think.
*that* would be very sad to me I mean
“Grant amnesty and there will be another batch.”
Then they get amnesty. and so on. People come to america and join america.
yea they’re out in the streets today calling citizens of america nazis
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
I want amnesty for our illegal friends
Sorry, no. Regularization…such as a greencard. But no vote, no welfare AND a change in the law so their children are not citizens either.
UNLESS they go back to their country of origin and apply like everyone else.
Live here, work here, but you don’t get to cut in line.
Well maybe we can all just pray that we have an America ahead of us where it makes a damn bit of difference whether there are immigrations or not. I rather think it might could be a moot point very soon the way we’re heading.
The fact of the matter is:
Narco-drug cartels use the illegal community as cover to operate; the illegal community is preyed upon, not by Arizonans who want the border enforced, but by those who use the illegals desire for anonymity to force them to provide the pipelines and the mules to run drugs and guns. This is fact. So, the reasoning is if we dry up the source of people for this pipeline, such as a large unaccountable, somewhat invisible community, there’s less places for the truly awful people to operate. This is basic law enforcement in any somewhat segregated community.
Of course illegals are human HF. So are other criminals. Just because the migration criminals have brown skin and make awesome tamales does not excuse their lawbreaking, nor give them a pass to ignore our laws. They need to go home and get in line, like other law abiding people and thus show that they are interested in becoming law abiding Americns, as opposed to law abiding Mexicans.
There are alot poorer people throughout the world, but we don’t see then DEMANDING and THREATENING us, like we see the activist shits waving their Mexican flags and calling for us racists for wanting orderly, lawful migration. Talk about No Class HF?
I have worse sob stories involving bodies and mass graves and such from when I was stationed in Karbala, so spare me such crap. If Mexico cared about or treated Mexicans as well as our country does, we wouldn’t have to have this discussion.
If you think these are Nazi ideas, your head has turned into mush.
see I told you she would make good fodder for Nazi-flavored propaganders
And you see no hypocrisy that these are the same ilk that screamed “foul” when the LaRouchies showed up with Obama-as-Hitler signs and tarred the TEA Party as “racist” for those signs?
I’d say “make up your mind”, happy, but you don’t have one anymore
Happyfeet, you said:
“I also think the law as designed is dishonest – this isn’t about reducing law-breakings it’s about capturing and deporting more illegal aliens.”
Hmmm. I can’t say I agree that there is diguise here.
The law is indeed about dealing with illegal aliens on Arizona soil – to apprehend and deport people who aren’t legally present in the United States, since that imnigration is causing trouble for people who are here legally. What makes you say this particular purpose is disguised?
SGT Ted I think the anger is silly. These are nice people mostly and we need to take responsibility for having a gay porous border.
Illegal immigrants are our own fault. Me if I lived in Mexico I would live in Texas very soon. You can fault people for wanting a better life than Mexico.
Noonan is right that the people you fault are the pussy leaders of America like McCain and Obama and even Bush a little but I love him so we don’t have to fault him a whole whole bunch, and Princess Lindsey, who then want to cynically exploit the mess they make.
I piss on their head.
This wouldn’t even be an issue in a non-loser country but that it is is not the fault of our illegale amigos.
Hi Sarah I think the way it’s disguised is that the proponents keep invoking dead ranchers and drug cartels and kidnapping rings and such. This law isn’t about that, save for this one provision to maybe fund an intelligence task force. And if this is about reducing illegals then the law is very anemic and baby steppy I think. It’s not worth the trouble it’s causing.
Watching the Hot Air commenter ones savage Mr. Rubio was very disheartening.
Arizona isn’t angry and screechy. Arizona just protected their interests by doing some legislating.
There are angry people that are screeching all kinds of screeches. You might know one or two of them.
also I’ve said over the years many times that I have a crazy soft spot for the illegal ones… I come from that part of America, and it distorts how I think.
I know that but I don’t know how to fick it.
The deportings are about Jobs and Freedom. It’s very America.
Illegal immigrants are our own fault.
Wrong. The illegal immigrant/drug cartel problem is the fault of the criminals and no one else. And if the federal government continues to abrogate its responsibility to defend the border, then the states have a moral obligation to do so.
“..the states have a moral obligation to do so”
How about contractual obligation instead? Since they aren’t exactly moral entities.
oh. *can’t* fault people for wanting a better life than Mexico.
How about contractual obligation instead? Since they aren’t exactly moral entities.
Good point.
bdam, we cannot afford unlimited immigration any more. We don’t have enough openings for the low-skilled ones because we aren’t a manpower intensive agricultural and factory economy like we were up until WWII. And we don’t have the money to provide benefits to those who can’t or won’t work. Trust me, there’s some of each.
No. They’re the fault of the people who run ridiculously shitty countries to where able bodied people that live in them really want to get the fuck out and go to a place that doesn’t suck nearly so bad.
If their countries didn’t suck, they wouldn’t want to come here.
And here’s another tidbit to chew on HF. In Utah alone, 50,000 kids of citizens have had their SSN stolen and used by illegals, thus destroying their financial lives for however long it takes and however much money in attorneys fees to get it straight with the IRS. These “hardworking” llegals wreak havoc on truly innocent citizens when they purchase forged or stolen SSNs so they can “get work”. These are very real economic crimes committed by those abuelitas and titos and hermanos that hurt our nations citizens. It isn’t “Nazi” to point this out.
Excuse me HF but you have no room to talk about anger, after your name calling and Godwins law violations. You owe some people here apologies.
I’m from Cali too HF but I dont agree with you at all.
I had my SSN stolen by a fence … what do you call someone what makes fences? … One of those. He was in Virginia. The IRS cleared it right up.
I’m not from Cali SGT Ted I’m from south Texas. Texas is from the Indian word Tejas which means friendly.
I don’t think I hurt anyone’s feelings SGT Ted.
They don’t like illegals. I think they’re blowing the problem way out of proportion. Which was supposed to be what we were talking about but everyone’s all eager to jump straight to “illegals are the scourge of the earth hate them hate them hate them.”
I don’t really have that p.o.v.
I don’t think illegal immigrants are all that big a deal really. I think since our little country is too inept to secure her borders, the ideal would be that illegals are something our little country should cope with without getting all emotional and freaked out and screechy.
This is sort of how things go when you live in a chickenshit country that can’t stop people from crossing a fucking river. Ohnoes we can’t do that it is too hard plus we are retarded waah waah.
So, why are you angry at a state that has deciding to not be chickenshit about it anymore, HF? By your words you should be celebrating and not calling those who support a correction Nazis?
Sorry HF you cant walk that back. You called pretty much everyone here a Nazi by association for supporting AZ law.
dude the feds can’t do their enumerated powers in the constitution thingy.
BTW I see more screechy freaking out by the open borders advocates over this law than from Team R.
But by your words, its OK to be screechy and freak out over how we treat illegals than how the illegals treat us when they break our laws and damage the lives of our citizens?
where did I call people Nazis?
please to find where I said that Mr. SGT.
You can’t cause I didn’t.
Here is what I said:
I don’t want to walk a word of that back.
And I didn’t call everyone here a Nazi but if I wanted to I would have but I don’t feel that way so I didn’t.
I just think people are horribly wrong, and they hasten our little country’s doom when they take their eye off the individual liberty and fiscal responsibility ball and put it on the ohnoes hordes of murderous illegal immigrants ball.
But that’s just me.
you missed limited gov’t. feds job 1 is defend the borders says so in the dead white male papers.
Your arguements are a strawman HF. You sound like a garden variety leftard.
see I told you she would make good fodder for Nazi-flavored propaganders.
Start apologizing.
I wish we had a federal government what gave a shit, Mr. newrouter. We don’t. Our government is more interested in redesigning camaros to more better appeal to homosexuals and fucking Israel up the ass.
I agree completely. So did you go down to the May Day march and tell them to stop calling that little old governor lady a Nazi?
that is not calling anyone here a Nazi, SGT… that is saying that I correctly predicted that Governor Brewer’s Aryan good looks would lend themselves to an anti-Team R propaganda campaign, and they did.
you don’t think jose and maria are getting fucked by the coyotes? me jose and maria are ok but the feds gave the mexican immigration franchise to the mexicans ( gov’t and gangs)
THey would have called anyone a NAzi who approves of this law. They call Jor Arrapaio a Nazi regularly in AZ. You cant let the enemy define the terms or the arguement in order to shut you down from doing the right thing.
Just because some moonbats are scrreeching about racists nazis doesnt mean you shut up and allow immigration laws to be unenforced.
You guys are really pitbulling poor happyfeet. I was raised in Arizona, and now live in Colorado. Illegals are a drain on society, period. They don’t pay taxes. They don’t carry insurance. They siphon government services. Worst of all, they promote a bitter racial antagonism. I understand what Arizona is doing here; it is a kick in the federal do-nothing shin for some kind of action for a social cancer that has always been a political zit. It’s ugly and polarizing.
I have issues with the Arizona legislation because I wonder if law enforcement officers should be put in a position to determine how and when to challenge someone’s right to be in this country. True, they’re law enforcement, but don’t they have plenty of other responsibilities? Makes me wonder if a prudent officer might blow off a stop altogether if it meant having to collect and verify docs.
That said, I think you are being rather vicious to happyfeet. Reminds me of a playground beatdown I once witnessed.
iran is named for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
blondes
legal aliens are required to have proof of their legality at all times per fed law. so illegal aliens are given a pass. man lots of stupid out there.
The terms of this argument are that it’s a silly distraction. Even if Noonan is right this is not going to help Team R. You just watch. Those losers will send Meghan’s useless timorous daddy back to Washington.
If that were to not happen? Then I’d sit up and maybe take notice that there might could be something worthwhile going on here.
Gov. Brewer had it coming then, right?
Illegal immigrants are our own fault
ZOMG!! I’m not responsible for stealing that car, that dirty car owner left the door unlocked!!
Hey, happy … I bet you think looters that take advantage of riots to smash windows and run down the street with 42 inch flatscreen tv’s are the fault of The Man, too.
Is it a good idea to have Law Enforcement Officers trying to determine whether it is an appropriate time to Enforce/b> any Laws? Can they really know if you were speeding? Could they possible know if you robbed that bank? This law enforcement officers enforcing laws thing sounds very, very scary.
Let’s just make everything legal. lawl.
Oh, no, cynn. They’re the very best part of America and if you weren’t such a loser piece of American failshit, you’d understand that.
Love,
happyfeet
Pablo, imagine you are a traffic cop who just pulled over a vanful of people for speeding. They are swarthy, or are clearly slavic. What do you do?
cynn
SOP for a cop at a traffic stop is to ask for EVERYONE’s id.
A cop is negligent if s/he doesn’t.
I believe newrouter linked it in the other thread but this Harsanyi column is worth a look.
What about papers? Whatever that means.
Pablo gets it right I think. Except for a lot of times they don’t have insurance which can be a big problem.
The “papers”?
That means your visa, green card or whatever document that allows a foreign national legal entry into the US.
Not so hard is it?
They often don’t have drivers licences either. Or a valid SSN. Or the right to be here in the first place.
See how that works HF?
It’s a dilemma. America probably should look at controlling its borders I think SGT Ted.
A valid driver’s license or state ID should be accepable proof of legitimacy. Otherwise it’s an invasion of privacy to demand more “proof.”
“That means your visa, green card or whatever document that allows a foreign national legal entry into the US.
Not so hard is it?”
Yeah, it might be hard for an overworked officer to monitor.
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
try reading law sir before pontificating.
Amazingly, Arizona’s new law says exactly that. A driver’s license or state ID ends the immigration status questioning flow chart.
overpaid fed bureaucrats are the new “victims” in this progg stupidity
You know who else used flow charts?
Nazis is who.
When was the last time you had a cop pull you over and ask for your naturilization papers? Doof.
Yup which is actually in AZ’s plan. But, just because the border is so big that its easy to sneak in doesn’t mean that those who do sneak in are correct to do so. Very much like you are not free to steal your neighbors lawn ornaments simply because they are not chained to his house.
They caught 105 of them just yesterday, a big old mob. They raided a couple of drop houses with around 120 or so last week.
Part of border enforcement means catching the ones who do manage to sneak past and sending them back. I don’t recall any expiration date of the law based on time spent in the country. No “allee-allee in-come-free” clause that kicks in once your here for any number of months or years.
Thats another part of law enforcement in general and border enforcement in particular. It’s called deterrence.
So, while some illegals may have gotten established and quite comfortable here, that is not a guarantee that they won’t be shown the door when they are found out. I’m sure its a shock to them somewhat when they are, but then again, they knew that, really deep down. Just because they have big mouth advocates and a willing mob to take to the street doesn’t make them innocent nor does it absolve them of the law.
I’m sure there are nice people who have hopped the border, but there are plenty of nice people who do crappy things, like the fools who voted in Barracky thinking of Unicorn fart driven cars or John McCain who seems like a nice guy but is a complete tool when it comes to amnesty.
they axs for driver license and insurance loser and legal aliens are required by fed law to “have their papers”
They sure enforce it here. doof.
Yeah, it might be hard for an overworked officer to monitor.
Thats a pretty ignorant statement. It’s called taking a class on INS identification and then proceeding therewith. If someone is here legally, it follows that they will have gotten a valid drivers licence in order to drive.But a drivers licence is not necessarily proof of citizenship here just like my having a European drivers licence isn’t proof of citizenship over in France or Germany. Is that so hard to understand?
Their “ID” will be that provided by the INS when they legally enter the country. I should know, as I was in law enforcement for 26 years. Still not so hard is it?
So I assume the PD should ask everyone for their INS clearance. Because otherwise would be to single out certian people. You just said that a driver’s license is not completely valid. You guys are tripping over something furry.
What Darleen said in #240.
I’ve never been stopped and not had to produce ID, and if driving a license, registration and for the past 30 years or so proof of insurance.
Some States drivers licenses, the ones that will provide them to illegals. I’m assuming AZ is not one such.
per fed laws legal aliens are to produce documentation upon request from feds. barking like losers
Back to my “papers” argument halfass. You guys are not worth my time tonight.
I didn’t hear the baseball was involved.
did I just miss that or did nobody tell me?
So the Padres have illegals on their team? Other teams do? Union Mgt. is always prone to the stupid?
Happyfeet reminds me of a Welsh Corgi who always wants its belly rubbed.
Somebody has to keep the grounds on those baseball players estates.
You know who else used flow charts?
Nazis is who.
Wow…in several of my college classes we were required to develope flow-charts (workflow analysis, data flow analysis)
Who knew my professors were Nazis teaching Nazism?
Microsoft Word, too, as there are flowchart diagrams on the drawing toolbar
“my papers” is progg stupidity writ large. drink stupid cynn
Comment by geoffb on 5/1 @ 8:22 pm
You know, something I remember from my childhood … it used to be a legal requirement that one’s car registration had to be displayed in a visible place so if your car parked in any public place a cop could look through your windshield and see it. There used to be these things that were like luggage tags where you could fold your registration so the Number, Name and address would be visible in the window and you attached them to the driver’s wheel column.
Guess I didn’t realize that the late 50’s was NAZI time in old California.
You have no clue.
Happyfeet reminds me of a Welsh Corgi who always wants its belly rubbed.
Pembroke or cardigan?
So I assume the PD should ask everyone for their INS clearance. Because otherwise would be to single out certian people. You just said that a driver’s license is not completely valid.
what are you smoking tonight, cynn?
Cop Pat pulls over a car of 4 people for speeding. Pat will ask for ID’s Everyone passes over their driver’s licenses… Pat looks ’em over, sees they’re valid, checks registration (valid) writes the driver and ticket and that’s that.
What if the driver only had a valid DL and the others only state issued ID’s? Still all valid, ticket written, that’s that.
The cop will ONLY pursue further ID if one or more of the people have no ID to show him. Cop has no clue whether the person is an illegal or is someone who is trying to duck outstanding warrants. A competent cop will always check out the identification of everyone in any car/legitimate stop, s/he makes. There have been too many instances where dangerous people – illegal or not – slip by because they were let go by some cop after giving a song and dance about why they don’t have ID on them.
hf
There are illegal aliens within the gangs that protect the drug cartels in El Paso.
Big deal.
Los Aztecas
Far cry from some fry cook in Wyoming
All of us carry “papers”, whether in the form of driver’s licenses, proof of insurance, etc. In the case of cops potentially asking someone for proof of citizenship, they would need to have reasonable suspicion that the person whom they are asking may be violating immigration laws.
Or, what Darleen said.
You know who else used commodes?
Nazis, so flush twice.
you have no argument
Do you have your papers? As in birth certificate, original social security card, auto title, home mortgage papers, etc.? Better round them up, baby.
that’ll fun at your next traffic stop or interaction with the fed
If Obama doesn’t need his birth certificate, why would i need mine?
“bdam, we cannot afford unlimited immigration any more. ”
We don’t have unlimited immigration.
“They don’t pay taxes. ”
This in the same thread as the undocumented using SSNs. Just let them work and pay taxes and pay so the old people can retire.
Obama doesn’t need his papers because he doesn’t get stopped.
Don’t forget your tp, people.
President Obranflakes.
Well, cynn, TX puts your SSN on your license. When the cop runs the license, he can also run SSN against E-Verify. If that SSN is assigned to a 5’4″ black female and the license came from a 6’4″ Hispanic male, that sounds like probable cause to me.
Moron.
Oh, did you ever decide that the NYT was good enough to establish that Bush tried to fix Fannie and Freddie in 2003 and COPPERHEADS like you blocked it? Because the Republicans never had 60 votes and for some reason wouldn’t twist the law into a pretzel to reconcile it through. More fools them for treating you as anything resembling honest.
good point fraud and more fraud and demorat party
bdam, we do have more immigration than we can support. And if you won’t enforce the fucking law then THERE IS NO LIMIT.
286: Hell Yeah!!
This in the same thread as the undocumented using SSNs
Some do and some don’t but they take out more than they put in.
AND they cause untold grief with identity theft by using stolen SSNs.
When some guy in the Midwest has his disability payments cut off because records show “he” is working as a shortorder cook in Fresno, don’t tell me illegals are a net gain.
Do you have your papers? As in birth certificate, original social security card, auto title, home mortgage papers, etc.? Better round them up, baby.
At no point did you even come close to making a cogent argument. We are all now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
Well, if the name that comes back through E-Verify is LaToya Jackson and Manuel Ortiz handed it to you…. or does not having a functioning brain prevent you from realizing that others might?
[…] Arizona border wellbeing redux: an opposing conservative view (that R… […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
Big D, Please drop dead asap.
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
[…] Arizona border security redux: an opposing conservative view (that … […]
OK, assuming you’re right: hit from E-Verify = issued SSN, run against drivers license database which does have description. Voila’, the magic of linked databases.
[…] Arizona border wellbeing redux: an opposing conservative view (that R… […]
Someone doesn’t understand “limit”.
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