Be very afraid.
But whatever you do, don’t use the word “fascism.” Far too fraught and icky, that word is — and we don’t want to alienate moderates who will forever insist that, in exchange for their support, “our” side agrees never to push a conservative / classical liberal agenda.
Fraughtlaw!
Ooh, quiet you might fraughten them.
John Hawkins wantst to start acting tough
No disagreement, just swear I have heard this someplace before…
i’d do the icky shuffle
but..
i might step on bugs
[c]
it mite be torture
[f] i have icky lesbian ball spike fantasy [or 2]
[g] ahh..the keith richard chord!
Let me be the first to say: nobody will care.
(And it eats me alive to say it.)
Barky’s not getting everything his own way. The mortgage cramdown bill was defeated in the Senate, with 12 Dems jumping ship.
When did John Hawkins go to PJM?
Wow.
What does it say? Stupid berry can’t foller that link
Basically, it alleges that Obama (or, should I say, “The White House”) threatened all out war on one of the Chrysler investors (such that its existence would be made a living hell) if they didn’t play ball and swallow the shit sandwich they were ‘offered’.
I got extra JitB tacos
There’s a certain amount of disservice you do to your little country when you let your president shit on you like that I think
Since when did Porchmonkeys have a constituency?
Huh?
What I should say though is thank you ECM that was nice
Oh. My little brother says porchmonkey is sorta racist
My little brother said the same.
So I guess the question now is will Obama will rebuffed by constitution law before he burns these industries to the ground?
Because obviously the re-election of Obama is clearly more important than constitutional law or even the health of our economy.
I’m not sure Fascism is strong enough a word anymore.
The president of the United States is trying to manipulate the free market to get himself re-elected. In every lefitsts wildest conspiratorial dreams of George Bush they didn’t imagine this.
This will be the greatest test of our system since the Civil War.
I’m thinking of porchmonkeys as iconic slaves and as the necessary result of “moderating” speech to please Communists, Fascists, and their appeasers. There’s nothing to “win”.
Well, the thing is, if what this guy says is true, it’s clearly and obviously an impeachable offense.
Now, of course, this is Barack Obama, so he won’t be taking the bullet, so the only question is, if it does actually make any waves at all (and I sincerely doubt it since, as I noted above, nobody is going to care because they’re too fat, dumb, and lazy to give a rat’s ass about the country/Constitution/the law as it applies to our betters), who’s the unfortunate cabinet member that’s going to catch an under-the-carriage bus ride in his stead.
Trashman, maybe use a different term next time then, because I didn’t see your meaning.
ECM, yeah, funny thing was, people were trying to bully Jeff off this point yesterday. You know, yesterday, the day before everyone else jumped on the topic.
Man, if this is everyone else jumping on it, a lot more people need to jump! (Seriously, though, I haven’t seen this story anywhere but Newsbusters and here which is saddening.)
Mankiw caught it and read between the lines and the financial papers have written up some good copy. SS over at NRO has been talking about it now.
Overall? Yeah, you’re right. Sad, isn’t it? I guess that’s the whimper and not a bang effect.
Tom Lauria is a dumbass. What a pre-paid shill. fighting teh Obama sirocco! Da Evil wind!
Fuck you, Lauria, Chrysler’s board authorized the government’s equity position. Fuck you, you fuckin’ shill, whipping up teh r-winger radio listening ignorants with total fuckin’ bullshit. “My clients bought a contractual position!” Hahahahahahahaha!
Fuckin’ two-bit lawyer waterheaded punk! Tom Lauria, haha! Only fools would listen to that carnival barking legal boy. He Teh Victim! A securities attorney Victimized, his client destroyed by whispered threats from the press corp! Clients bought a contract! Hahaha. Oppenheimer isn’t stupid enough to keep this clown on retainer, are they? Tommy-boy is standing on teh Constitution! Hahaha, that’s a new one. Maybe not, maybe there’s always been some legal whore willing to argue such weak tea in a court of law for a hundred billing hours. No shortage of court room clowns out there, I suppose.
thor:
None of what you just wrote makes any sense at all–is this normal for you?
And this. Good title, “Obama Declares War on Capital”.
Historically, at this point, some troll will come by and tell me I don’t understand secured/unsecured debt and lien positions. And the general bankruptcy process.
Which, yes, is very complicated. Like checkers and socks before shoes.
Trashman, maybe use a different term next time then, because I didn’t see your meaning.
No thanks. I’ll just try to explain whatever it happens to be next time, too. I hope my explanation was clear enough? I’m trying to link the things Jeff has emphasized regarding ceding the interpretation of language to the recipient or Dem. propagandizer with its resulting speech and thought control – thus essentially to slavery, as well as to losing elections, that’s all. Hence, “Since when did Porchmonkeys have a constituency?”
Or else I still don’t understand the problem you are having with what I said?
bh:
Yeah, but as bad as that is (and don’t let me leave the impression that I don’t think it isn’t horrific, etc.), the fact that he (or, euphimistically, “The White House”) allegedly threatened to bring down Perella Weinberg via the press corps is just…terrifying on another level entirely.
Thor’s writing is 100% loony gristle. He’s artless, but he tries so hard. I’d weep for him if I wasn’t busy rooting for a small radio to fall in the tub the next time he’s shaving his legs.
Trashman, hey, I’m not a theorist but I do get Jeff’s point. Just saying I didn’t take that all of that away from your first sentence. I checked a few times for context and didn’t find it. That’s why I said, “Huh?” and asked for clarification.
thor, I’m not sure what type of positions you hold. So, I assume you aren’t buying debt from distressed companies. You’d agree that someone ought to be doing so, though, right?
Everything I wrote makes sense, chucklehead. What doesn’t make sense is that any serious owner of C bonds would allow that two-bit ambulance chaser to represent them in this affair, as a matter of fact The Honorable Tom Lauria alluded to the likelihood of his losing the rest of his clients, and of course he will. He’s simply on a dumb-filled bender.
Know what a junk bond is, chucklehead? There’s a prospectus that outlines the default risk of every issue, Mr. Lauria might want to read that. Fuckin’ Constitution, THE MUD BUNKERERISTS MUST BE THUMPED TO REALITY!
Okay, cool Trashman, was just looking for clarification.
Comment by ECM on 5/2 @ 1:04 am #
thor:
None of what you just wrote makes any sense at all–is this normal for you?
I don’t think ‘normal‘ is quite the word to use, but yes, this seems to be standard fare for Thor.
Exhibit A: Comment by thor on 5/1 @ 4:36 pm #
Battery acid splatter? Hot mule gas? Fragments from a coccyx bone? Nails off a outhouse door?
Everything I wrote makes sense, chucklehead.
No, it does not but, please, keep on repeating it until it becomes reality for…somebody.
(Furthermore, when you are attempting to make a point, you might actually make one rather than repeatedly making ad hominem remarks–it only weakens whatever argument you’re trying to put across. Also, ranting and raving in a disjointed fashion, pinballing from ill-conceived remark to even more ill-conceived remark w/o any rhyme or reason, only further impresses upon the reader that you have no idea what is you are talking about and seek to win arguments by obfuscation rather than an argument based on empirical evidence.)
No, I don’t buy debt that’s that distressed. Nobody does unless they know what the fuck they’re doing, and if they don’t, fuck ’em. Teh stooopid must learn someday somehow. That’s what America is all about.
Fuckin’ idiot Tom Lauria is trying to make contractual legal arguments where there are none. Slowly for ya, one time, contract law this is not. Default risk exists, all outlined in every prospectus. “Management reserves the right…” Haha.
You people are just being baited and veered into dumboland because you are that gullible.
I’m surprised to see Hawkins be a, well, hawk. I always had him pegged for The Sensible Alliance®.
But he’s right — until the Left pays a price for their underhanded techniques, they’ll never stop. (Although they might not stop even then and merely up the ante by quietly jailing their opponents.)
Jeff, Hawkins byline reads thus:
John Hawkins is a professional blogger who runs Conservative Grapevine and Right Wing News. He also writes a weekly column for Townhall.
Sounds like this is a one-time thing. I don’t know how he finessed it, though. Maybe submitted it to Insty or something.
If you have an opinion of how Chrysler’s bankruptcy is metaphoric for the dark fangs of the devil biting the ass of God, please share, Dicentra.
thor, I’m not sure on your thrust. Specific contract details aren’t statutory law like Chap 11. When you buy an asset or debt class, you’re pretty much just considering statutory law. Your lawyer anyways.
And, I’m not sure on your risk tolerance, but plenty of private investors play distressed for gravy. Collectively, many, many do in their funds.
Not sure how how I’ve “veered into dumboland”.
The recording kept cutting out for me at the same places. Very annoying.
Re: the above, contractual law is colloquial speech.
They’re simply talking about “the law”. As in, buying something is a contract under the relevant statutory law.
Look, dude, this is securities law. Nobody woke up one day and was shocked out of bed when they read that C went down. If they did, tough tits. Those who collectively invest would first have a complaint against their collective (ha!), which is probably what, their mutual fund?, if they have any complaint at all, since their is a prospectus detailing the risks associated with any mutual fund that would be authorized to hold junk paper.
This has nothing to do with the Constitution, with semiotics, with Lit theory, with God, nor with Obama’s political leanings, this has all to do with the legal restructuring of a company in which the government is a shareholder and/or creditor.
I stand with America, the American worker and American industry and its role in our national defense.
You want to veer off into monkey business of bitter politics of the black helicopter crowd, be my guest. Dipshit ignorants like Phil Gramm are most responsible for our banking and economic crisis. Punishment should be the gallows for ’em, but they rely on enchanted ignorants to protect ’em. I’m not that.
Corporate bonds aren’t simple promissory note, so sorry, I know those who don’t know much about financial instruments will have to reduce said bonds to a knuckle dragging simpleton construct so as to create silly arguments of teh evilness of teh gubmint. All details of the debt instrument as well as its risks are defined in its prospectus.
I think in the fine print one will find clauses beginning with “management reserves the right to…” authorizing C’s mgmt to do anything they felt would benefit the company, the shareholders, the bondholders, etc.., financially. And if management’s judgment was wrong, the prospectus is their indemnity, it was written by lawyers to do that, ya know.
Business 101 – risk is real.
Good God thor, stop crapping on the carpet so much.
You are stinking up the place.
Geez, you are fucking noxious.
If I break that down to four statements:
1. Securities law is what it is. And now we’re in simple Chap 11 land. If you were adjudicating though, wouldn’t you lend an ear to this testimony? I spent the early years of life buried in finance side of this crap and I’ve never come across pre-filing negotiations like this. You’ve seen anything like this before?
2. Prospectus warnings? Junk paper? That’s hyperbole, dude. It is. Everything can go to shit and everything is possibly junk. You don’t often get the trim from the government though. Keep this shit to a fixed tax rate.
3. Semiotics, Constitution, Jeff’s view? He’s offering a theory as to how things are the way they are. That’s what Jeff does. What, he’s going to argue this as a quant/lawyer/docter/astronaut? Frankly, I find the issue of shifting governmental action to be a major fucking problem. C’mon, put on your analyst cap, give the greeks on the day’s action lately. I can’t figure them out and you can’t either.
4. Black helicopters? Well, let’s just say, you really have me confused with someone else.
Nobody cares what you think about anything thor. Even if most here know little about finance it is plain to see that you’re the same preening know nothing fuckwit regardless of the subject matter. I determine what value to place on someone’s thoughts based on what they have to say in areas in which I am far more knowledgeable than they are. I’m sure the vast majority of the smart people here do likewise. It’s really the only way to size someone up. So even if finance isn’t in my wheelhouse all I see in your prattle is an orangutan masturbating at the zoo.
thor, tomorrow, when you wake up, you’ll see that you just said, “the prospectus warns of risk” a few different times, in a few different ways.
Obama’s “people” were considered only 2/5 human back in the day. So he feels he only needs to uphold 2/5 of the Constitution. Which 2/5? It’s somewhere in the back.
There you go, boys and girls, your knuckle draggin’ monkey dither. You’re not smart, asshole. You’re swishing and lisping away.
Shut up, thor.
1. No, I would not adjudicate non-sense, no chap. 11 judge has time to listen to contrived irrelevance. Pre-filing negotiations are always pretty much like this. The debtor tends to make an offer to avoid bankruptcy costs and the creditor decides whether they’ll take the debtor’s offer or chance their luck in bankruptcy court. That’s how this works.
2. The government isn’t often involved, but no, hyperbole it ain’t. The differing debt instruments are bound to the legal covenants defined in their prospectus. Furthest thing from hyperbole there is. Tax rate? Tax rates have nothing to do with any of this.
3. Jeff’s trying to apply the one thing he knows to something he doesn’t. A chap. 11 judge is going to try to strike a balance between the parties, which doesn’t solely mean the gov versus the bondholders; he’ll render a varying payout ( which might be nothing more than an equity stake in the restructured company) to the differing seniority levels amongst of debt holders.
4. The whole nationalization meme is a wimpy canard from those who wear conspiracy goggles.
The goal is to restructure Chrysler so it can be a viable company after the restructuring, period. Goo-goo gah-gah baby talk from those who see teh Evool at every turn are likely persons who are not familiar with Chap 11 restructurings. Again, this has nothing to do with theories of Marxist Workers Unions! (OMG OMG!) Workers have the right to represent themselves through a union. This is America. Don’t like it? Leave. On some half-deserted island in the Pacific maybe the blinded by weirdness people will find the time to educate themselves on American capitalism and American corporate and securities laws, or maybe not. Maybe they’ll seeth and mumble inanities until their live long days come to an end. Free will.
Republicans destroy industries while President Obama attempts to rebuild ’em. I think I know why one is popular while the other more and more irrelevant.
Well. Can’t say everybody wan’t warned about Chicago thugs in the White House. Kinda makes Dick Nixon look ethical.
On another topic; Morel mushroom season has arrived. So if you like to wander the woods of an afternoon keeep an eye open. They are tasty.
Sounds like somebody needs to lift their skirt, squat and pee.
P-blo tries so hard! Aww!
Do you have any evidence of this? Because I haven’t seen any. Everything I have seen indicates the goal is to keep UAW members employed and to build cars acceptable to people who hate cars, neither of which have shit to do with Chryslers viability, and everything to do with Obamas.
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About autothreadconverterthorboibot ECM said:
Forget it. thor exists to serve thor’s egotistical bigotry, ECM; witness #50. thor indulges himself out of the sheer universality of his pet rages — if he feels ’em, they’re real.
So thor converts all threads into rants about his nemesis, the black helicopter-winger gnats that buzz around his gigantic cranium, with its own weather system, the wee little fairy. thor hates him those arch wingers,
evenespecially if they’re imaginary. thor has no ultimate argument. thor doesn’t bother with bigger pictures. thor does not grasp causes and effects on a larger scale. thor trust his government. In four year bursts. Utterly.Because to a thor with a hammer, the whole world’s a winger. thor is a reactionary. thor cannot do either theory or principle.
thor cannot present convincing arguments because with such a limited field of view, well, you get the rest. thor dons his thimble and rules his own private Wall Street Britannia like the collussus he is. There in his blinkered mind.
Give autothreadconverterthorboibot as much as six syllables and you’ll always run the risk of his swift retribution, you winger, you. It’s a price we pay.
I know the wimpy wittle rethuglidums would like to fall to one knee (more likely curtsy) to the Japanese and Communist Chinese and ask (beg) them to assemble America its military utensils it needs for war.
Sorry, bitches but real Americans believe in American industry. Real Americans challenge the idea that America can be outsourced. Real Americans believe in America’s financial system. Real Americans invest in America through direct equity investments, a.k.a. stock, and hold management of American companies accountable to the shareholder. Real Americans know all the above is necessary for America to thrive. Real Americans know how American capitalism works and participate in it, they don’t pose and stutter and play political cheerleader 24/7.
Real Americans don’t need no stinkin’ badges, and they sure as shit don’t need to wear no fuckin’ shiny flag pins.
Real Americans don’t want Obama or America to fail. Failure isn’t part of a Real American’s vernacular.
Real Americans Kick Ass!
Real Americans love them some Fidel too, sloganeer.
It’s interesting you choose or instead of and there, thor.
Michelle Obama would put you in a headlock until you start acting like a real American man, JHo.
Real Americans aren’t afraid of no Cuban dictators. We fly to their balmy island, eat their delicious food, smoke their cigars and fuck their women whenever the hell we want.
Real Americans always patronize tinpot oppressors what get their uniforms from Sears & Roebuck, thor. It’s how we’ve always been.
And Real Americans aren’t caught dead around real Cubans. So to put it.
Real Americans don’t engage in excessive demagoguery. Real Americans don’t sputter excessive political platitudes. Real Americans lead by example, not endless libelous rhetoric. Real Americans don’t need to elevate themselves by putting down others. Real Americans bang the hot chicks.
Real Americans don’t need to elevate themselves by putting down others, autolibelousrhetoricthreadconverterthorboibot.
I can’t wait to visit Cuba. Why should Sean Penn get to squeeze all the ripe Cuban titty?
I see the loon is off his meds again.
Well, as long as the demagoguery and political platitudes aren’t excessive, then all is well. BTW, I’m all for the excessive banging of hot chicks, especially if they’re russian hookers that can recite poetry.
Have you been yipping all night, yippy dog?
Must be a potent batch of meth this weekend, eh?
YIP! YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIP!
Just imagine thor as a castrated chihuahua in a gay little sweater, yipping at the mailman while taking extreme care to always stay behind the safety of the living room window (or, in his case, his keyboard and monitor).
Keyboard?
thor MAD! thor SMASH!
Real Americans don’t stalk men and Yip like SPB.
So, where are you from, boi?
YIP! YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
I just wish I was still allowed within 100 yards of schools and playgrounds.
No, the goal is to sell it to Fiat. Read a fucking paper sometime, noob.
I’m installing Yiphammer. Dauuuuey!
Thor really needs some life experiences.
What would be easier would be if you’d shut the fuck up. And stay off the guy’s property. What’s so hard about that?
Wrong, as usual, bean-boi, Fiat isn’t even eligible to take a majority stake until the American tax payer is paid back.
Try understanding what little you read.
No, the goal is to sell it to Fiat.
Let’s hope Fiat brings their safety and emissions standards with them…oh wait!
They’re trying to sell them the fucking assets, you ignorant hick. For money. They’re not buying the company, but the assets, you brain dead rube.
Really, thorboi. You couldn’t be any fucking dumber if you tried. Shut the fuck up.
Yes, imagine how depressed I would be if Little Yippy Dog no longer responded to me.
YIP! YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIP!
It’s sure going to be nice when Chrysler doesn’t have to worry about making cars anymore and can focus on its core business of providing benefits to union members.
Right, Pablo.
And it warms the cockles of my heart to know that if the union somehow can’t quite cover the nut, that the full faith and (especially) credit of the United States government stands ready to ensure that the freeloading union guys in the “job bank” continue to get paid for drinking coffee and playing cards eight hours a day.
Duuuuuh, the ignorant wittle poser doesn’t even know what he’s talking about, but he stick’s his little hip out a little more and strikes a sissier pose.
C’mon, Chiclet chewing retard, if you keep reading maybe you’ll figure it out in a few
daysweeks.And you wonder why Real Americans waterboarded your political stripe right out of D.C..
YIP!
YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
YIP!
Real men have original wit. Real men don’t make verbal abuse part of their myopic lifestyle and then yelp when slapped down by a suggestion of backlash.
thor’s senator (beside having threaddiverterboi’s lips planted on his backside) is known for claiming to constituents that Detroit failed because of a dearth of CARB standards. More cost? More inefficiency? Market success!
It looks like that, as of 2006, a “worker” in the “job bank” raked in $130K/year in “wages” and benefits for simply clocking in at the beginning of the shift and clocking out at the end.
Yep, let’s raise taxes on convenience store clerks, fast food employees, and cab drivers so that these “workers” can continue to sit on their asses. Some of them have been doing it for decades. It’s the Real American Way!
Death is a life experience.
Just sayin’…
But thor assures us that the production class is alive and prospering, SBP. Why, look at the Big One!
I would be a lot less confrontational in person.
I would be a lot less confrontational in person.
Duh. Are you seriously under the impression that there’s anyone here who thinks you’re anything but a sheltered beta male? You’re such a horrible writer that you don’t even realize how false your cyber machismo rings. Think Steve Carell describing what funbags feel like in the 40 Year Old Virgin. The joke is on you and you don’t even know it.
#91
I wouldn’t.
#83
The Workers Paradise of Flint. Has a nice ring to it.
For alleged outlaws, you all are expressing way too much horrified outrage.
We’re more than 100 days into the Obamanation. We should be well aware by now that Obama, thor, Biden, nishi, et al. are not human beings, but leftypigs or cardboard cutouts.
BBSS. Lauria’s clients shouldn’t be afraid of Teleprompter Jesus’ threats to turn the White House press corps loose on them; they should be not only be planning how to use the Web, YouTube, etc. to show the professional “journalists” as the aging, arrogant, toothless leftypigs that they are, but to explain to them how they will do so at the first supercilious, “have you stopped beating your wife” type of question.
There is a part of me that says … let ’em have at it.
That’s right! Let Chrystler become the petri dish for government mandated emission standards and Union control of day to day operations. Then make ’em compete in the market with Ford and Toyota and Honda and see if consumers will buy their cars.
I say this because i have absolutely no reason to believe that that collection of “idealists” will, in any way, be successful in the marketplace (as long as the marketplace still exists as a function of consumer preference.) Consumers tend to resist the idea that they need to be “educated ” as to “proper purchasing” especially when they are on the back forty attempting to plant some crops or feed some cattle.
Electric sedan? I don’t think so, bitch!
My prediction is they will take the abysmal decisions of GM and Chrysler and make them look like transcendent business models, by the time they are done. Then there will be the memorial service.
Walthor sez I stand with America, the American worker and American industry and its role in our national defense
Funniest damn line, evah! if Walthor was ever a capitalist, he has been spending an inordinate amount of time trying to pretend he still is while supporting Obama’s march into statism and, in this instance, Obama’s payoff to the UAW by delivering up Chrysler to the UAW and backed by taxpayer money. The Big Red One then uses the TOTUS and the White House ankle-licking press corp to attack the investors who actually have the audacity to believe in contract law.
Walthor’s hallucinatory hysteria is reaching eleven.
Am I the only one left here still using TrollHammer?
BJT-FREE!
What if your government subsidized Chrysler will cost the average person half, one quarter, one tenth of the price of the Ford, Toyota model.
Governments are not by their nature “free market” competitors. They may legally steal. It’s like the independent store owner against the local mob boss. Give in or die.
Once the Government controls one car company they will have all of them at their beck and call.
McGehee, I use it religiously.
Well, then I guess they would have short term success garnering market share. I would point out that a low price point does not a successful care maeke. I give you the Yugo.
And, quite frankly, they have no chance at pricing their cars at those kind of price points and remaining a viable entity, even with government stimulus. The marketplace is a gladiatorial arena and tends to kill the unpopular.
That failure would have wide ranging positive benefits, I think.
Well, thor #91, let me know when you make the Dallas LZ and we can test that out……
Ok, have to go out for a while and enjoy the rare sunny day.
#98 – I just scoll. But it does rather cut down on the amount of time I spend reading here… Jeff is far too kind putting up with this, in my opinion.
Thor…
This was economic terrorism. Plain and simple. The junior classes may only “cram-up” a bankruptcy plan if 1) it leaves the more secured classes “whole” and 2) it is a feasible plan… This plan should be laughed out of court by the Judge. Any plan that does not freeze the pension plan and retiree benefits plans is not feasible.
Barry in one motion went from socialism, past Marxist-Leninism and Fascism and straight to economic terrorism… viva la resistance…
The marketplace is a gladiatorial arena and tends to kill the unpopular.
Well, then, Obama will start directing the marketplace from the White House. First the directive that Chrysler start producing a certain “green” car, then having his soviet congress outlaw non-green cars with a two-year window that all citizens are forbidden to own/operate/trade/produce non-green cars.
He’ll just have Henry Waxman in charge of that.
Thor.. securities laws… these bonds were “secured” by the assets of the company, meaning that investors (widows and orphans) should expect the law to be upheld, and to receive 100% of all proceeds of the specific assets of the estate which secure the bonds (basically registered bank debt in this case). Any shortfall would result in a deficit claim which would be put in the unsecured claims pool (trade creditors, employees, etc) for which they would recover on any assets not pledged to the bonds on a pari-passu basis within that class.
The standard “tip” to a lower class from the more senior “impaired” class is 2-5% to ensure a smooth bankruptcy process… Here the government has collectivized the company to the employees
GM and Chrysler are done. The only question is, how much is Obama going to rape the taxpayers to keep the UAW in caviar for the next 20 years?
Unquestionably. But thor, listen to your gurlfriend: Your pen really is mightier than your sword. Heh.
Altho I’d buy you a drink: You’re worth the five fifty in entertainment value.
Wolthor is an opportunist.
Thor doesn’t seem to comprehend the concept of secured debt. He also doesn’t seem to comprehend that even when Chrysler’s board authorized the government taking a huge equity stake in their firm, that doesn’t dissolve the liabilities of the company. The debt is still there, and those who hold it are still entitled to the enforcement of their legal contract, not menacing threats by the Gangsta in Chief.
GM and Chrysler are done. The only question is, how much is Obama going to rape the taxpayers to keep the UAW in caviar for the next 20 years?
And I’m done with GM and Chrysler. I have the former’s product at the moment, and only a couple of years ago sold off the latter’s. I’ll consider Ford if they aren’t driven into American Leyland’s fold by Il Duce’s manipulations of their competitors in the coming years. if they are, it’s foreign for the kid from here on out.
Am I the only one left here still using TrollHammer?
Trollhammer slow me down so I just scroll. Works just as good, but it does entail a bit of self discipline. Since it’s SPRING and I have less time here, it’s easy.
Soccer game recap for the day:
3 games: 2 loses, one tie.
But, I just had twenty yards of dirt delivered. Yip!
I told my husband at least six weeks ago that something evil was afoot with the Unions, because I didn’t hear Ron Gettelfinger on the radio every other day yapping about this and that. The Auto world was turning upside down, and he wasn’t grasping for … anything, regarding public opinion. Beating his drum on Paul W.’s Smiths show (and Frank Beckman’s). NOpe, he wasn’t anywhere, and I found that pretty fishy, and suspected he had something going on.
How right I was, huh? He already had his deal, didn’t he? This makes me so mad, I can’t even fucking see straight. Obama’s insured that UAW vote, even if there aren’t any car companies left. Fucking fascist fucker.
This is Latin-American fascism at its finest, really. Pretend to “rescue” companies and, in the process, either nationalize them or hand them to political allies to mismanage. Juan Peron or Getulio Varga couldn’t have done it any better. I can’t wait to see how many billions get pumped into these zombies by our Maximum Leader.
Make that “Vargas”
Labels, schlables, schlaffley. Are labels of any use or value, really?
Ha. Traded in the Tahoe just last weekend.* But who the hell owns a Chrysler? Honestly.
Anyway, I offer to Obama and the UAW the famous words of one Eddie Harris: “Up your butt Jobu.”
*Would have gone with a Ford out of sheer principle, but Jesus they’re cars are ugly.
I’m turning Japanese, I think I’m turning Japanese, I really think so….
I suck dick.
I’m turning Japanese, I think I’m turning Japanese, I really think so….
Be careful of Toyota. I had an ’07 Camry V6 and hated it with a passion. Biggest piece of crap I’ve ever owned. I was far, far happier with my ’99 Chrysler, honestly.
Not so many union jobs on Wall Street, eh Duuuuh-Dar, had there been you’d have made a good little cage girl, ha! Don’t even know what the cage is, do you? No.
C’mon drooler, make up some lies and attempt some sophmoric humorless put-downs. It’s all your good for, too bad you’re not good at it, union gal.
BTW, I loaded up on Tenet Health Care. Bang! Looks like you’ll get some more of my capital gains tax tickle-down in the form of U.S. government benefits, ya leech.
[…] Jeff Goldstein says we can’t use that icky “F-word” or we’ll scare off the […]
Here’s another Duuuuuuh howl.
Tell us, genius, what happens if there’s more debt than assets? Duuuuuuuuh!
And it’s called dilution. The board diluted its debt holders. Get your lingua straight, if that’s possible.
Looks like John LTC has chosen to back away from this here tangle. He has a law degree.
What’s the matter, John? Is the rhetorical beating I’m applying to your little uneducated friends too horrific to witness. Hahahaha. What’s the excuse for their ignorance, John, I mean, can you think of any reason? Maybe they’re too poor to participate in the money games of capitalism, that’d be my guess.
All good capitalists have an eye for opportunity.
Are you suggesting she fight fire with fire?
YIP! YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP! YIP!
Cowardly little beta doggie.
The “Estate!”
Another pretender.
Another awful try.
Here’s another Duuuuuuh howl.
Tell us, genius, what happens if there’s more debt than assets? Duuuuuuuuh!
And it’s called dilution. The board diluted its debt holders. Get your lingua straight, if that’s possible.
Then secured debts get priority (in general). Are you saying Chrysler has only roughly $300 million in assets to liquidate for these bond holders, Thor? (I’m using that figure because those contesting Obama’s “solution” are only getting about 30% on the dollar of the $1 billion outstanding). I’m betting they could get that just for the two Fenton, MO plants they’ve idled.
Tell us, bright boy, would you (as a super-duper non-HICK investor) purchase a secured corporate bond knowing the federal government may step in and cram it down to some arbitrary value at some point? What do you see this doing for corporate bonds?
The “Estate!â€
Another pretender.
Another awful try.
Another insult, another non-answer.
This is a weird experience, realizing that all this time I never fully appreciated the depth of ignorance of the lower class to common affairs of the ruling business elite.
I’ve come to recognize that the base ignorance of capitalism in Americans can be the one of the greatest sins against America itself. The average American loafer knows less of capitalism than the average Russian. At least most Russians can identify what capitalism isn’t.
Most of you doltish howlers would do better living in Cuba. Real Americans aren’t ignorant of America’s economic system.
So how would you deal with the unsecured pension debt, Mr. Finance?
55 (Jhoward): Thanks for clearing up what Thor’s all about–I made the grave error of attempting to deal with him as a reasonable human being. (Having persused his latest posts since my late night log-off, I see he’s kept going down the same track, spewing inanity, betraying a total ignorance of bankruptcy law and, especially the matter at hand and, generally, hosing down the deck with puerile insults which he seems to mistake for scintilating and genius-level debate.)
And thor:
Just because you make a shit-ton of posts that people grow weary of responding to does not make you correct. As I said much earlier, you live to obfuscate the issue(s) with ad hominem and vague accusations of ignorance (oh God, the blessed irony!) without ever actually refuting anyting point-for-point, preferring instead to ‘win’ by attrition, a severe case of verbal diarrhea for which, apparently, there is no cure.
I’m an electrical engineer by profession, and one of the things I learned early on is that you don’t have to have a BSEE to understand basic concepts like E=IR, just as one need not be a chicken to know what an egg is.
Please explain, Thor, where I am wrong here. We know you’re an asshole, but you might garner a tiny bit of respect if you demonstrated that you are at least a learned asshole.
And how does that figure in with this?
Enlighten us.
thor seems to think that if you know what all the knobs and switches on the dashboard do that makes you an expert on automobiles. He is wrong on several levels.
Bad bet.
Well, not-so bright Hick, I hate to inform you but Chap. 11 and Chap. 7 have been available options to American corporations who seek relief from debtors for some time now. Maybe this is your introduction to these common processes. Welcome. Watch and learn what the rest of us in the investor class already know.
We call it business risk.
debtors = creditors
Any answer to my questions, thor, or are you just going to sputter on like some Tourette’s-afflicted child?
One of the Fenton plants was recently refitted…new robots, etc. That, plus power house, land (that’s in the middle of suburban St. Louis, where property values have held well), etc. would likely bring $300 mil easily.
I think this whole Chrysler stir could be a good precursor for the uneducated in America to attempt to understand the role credit plays in our economy and why the Republican-engineered freezing of our credit markets can be fatal to our economy as a whole.
Study. Discuss.
I don’t if you understand the meaning of market value, hick. There’d be a mighty commission involved if you could sell those shuttered plants, Good Sir!
Problem is potential buyers of said plants might already have excess production capacity as it relates to the current market demand for autos, no?
Maybe get ya a robot if you want one!
the Republican-engineered freezing of our credit markets
Wow… Walthor’s delusions are worthy of a full 1368 hearing.
Jesus, you really are a pedantic cretin, aren’t you?
Purchasing lightly-used tooling such as robotics doesn’t necessarily mean one is expanding capacity, Thor. A lot of such purchases are made for the purposes of avoiding obsolescence, maintainability, quality, stores rationalization, etc. And that doesn’t include equipment like pumps, compressors, turbines, conveyors, etc. that are useful across virtually all medium and heavy industries.
But that’s neither here nor there…are you saying Chrysler doesn’t have $300 million in total assets to honor these secured debts? Upon what do you base this assertion? And do not secured creditors get first/largest bite at the asset apple?
Please explain where I’m wrong.
Jeffersonian, a bright eager American engineer, wants him one of those Chrysler’s robots. Why, then, can’t Jefferoneey have one? If he doesn’t have the money he could certainly borrow, doh! Maybe not. And even if he could borrow the necessary monies astute creditors would demand he present them with a business plan that would illustrate how his possession of a robot would generate the necessary cash flow to repay the interest and principle payments that creditors find so desirable.
Maybe call the Chinese Communists/Capitalists, or maybe the rupee-rich Indians at Tata, and ask ’em what they’d pay for Chrysler’s robot, then subtract shipping costs, and there’s a good starting point for your market value. Jefferesonian, show you can provide a better credit risk than the gooks and dot-heads and make your case to
Bear StearnsLehman Bro.sMerrill LynchGoldman or Morgan and see if they can round up some combination of VC’s and lenders. Good luck!Jeffersonian OWNS thor. It’s a beautiful thing.
Swigs beer and hits refresh.
As I price aftermarket robots on a regular basis, Thor, I have a pretty good idea what they’re going for. There’s a large secondary market for them.
Now, instead of persisting in avoiding the question, can you tell me where I’m off base WRT secured credit and Chrysler’s asset base?
Why you’re veritable Daniel Plainview, threadpeeingonaflatrockboibot, and were I a Real American wouldn’t I so regard that.
Thor punks Jeffersonian!
Uncaps a Modelo and laughs at the carnage.
Prove. Not that I care, but these next howlers might earn you half of that second drink.
Modelo aint bad.
Since Fiat isn’t importing cars into this country at all now I don’t see that as a problem.
What’s the price of a robot that’s tied up in bankruptcy court? Doh! Once that sticky issue of ownership is resolved then Chrysler’s bots might come to the market where you can prove your pricing model is superior to all others.
Again, if you can make an offer, seller!, then send it to whoever is in charge of Chrysler at the moment.
thor seems to think that if you know what all the knobs and switches on the dashboard do that makes you an expert on automobiles. He is wrong on several levels.
Bingo. And when confronted on basic concepts, he retreats to insult, vulgarity and jargon.
I’ve seen Thor pound his chest about what a brilliant investor he is, but I’ve only seen him talk about past dealings and how he’s outwitted the market time and again…with one exception: How much GM was going to skyrocket on the news of Rick Wagoner’s dismissal by Sheriff Bart. GM closed at 3.62 the day before. It then went to 1.62 before rebounding slightly.
I think that says enough about how much to trust this fellow’s pronostications and analysis.
Oh yes it does.
See there, Bmoe stumbles on an intangible! Fiat wants into the American market but the cost prohibitive barrier of entry reduces greatly with its alliance with Chrysler. Now we’re talking actual business dynamics! Thx, BMoe.
I guess only real real smert guys drink Modelo.
Wishes he had Modelo and hits refresh.
Thor punks Jeffersonian!
Read: yippy dog is reduced to sockpuppeting again.
Just how much meth did you buy this weekend, yippy dog?
Save some for later, dude. It’s only the first, and you know how pissed Daddy gets if you call him up for another check in the middle of the month.
YIP! YIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIPYIP!
What’s the price of a robot that’s tied up in bankruptcy court? Doh! Once that sticky issue of ownership is resolved then Chrysler’s bots might come to the market where you can prove your pricing model is superior to all others.
I’m a buyer, not a seller. I don’t set the price, I pay it.
And, as I said, the robots are a small part of this. And thor still hasn’t pointed to a syllable of what I’ve said being wrong.
That thor knows him some money.
Comes from knob-twiddling, Tom. Experience.
I know I‘m sold.
Me too. Beer?
Modelo aint bad.
Negra Modelo is possibly my favorite Mexican suds, second only to Bohemia. Good stuff.
Nice try, punk, but I bet a buck for a higher opening. Haha, c’mon, wittle bitter liar, prove otherwise. And that market action is the norm when a embattled CEO gets the boot, but then you wouldn’t know much of market history since your yeoman’s paycheck doesn’t afford you the opportunity to be a seriously engaged in the stock market.
Honesty hurts, no?
Your place?
Read: yippy dog is reduced to sockpuppeting again.
Pretty transparent, isn’t it?
Bitch.
That thor has seen a thing or two, that’s for sure.
Yeah, like my balls banging against his chin.
Come the stock and bond markets and economics in general I am your better.
And I voted for Obama!
Feel the burn.
“Ted”: “Nice try, punk, but I bet a buck for a higher opening.”
Sockpuppet FAIL.
Ever seen a grown man’s pump handle, Mike?
No, only thor’s, Daniel.
I have a brother named Ted. Is that you Ted? Did you ever get that lazy eye fixed?
You’ve got to do better than that Ted, just like dad always told us. Man up and answer the J’s questions.
You remember what happened when you didn’t listen; don’t you Ted?
Keep your hands off mi Red Stripe, white devils!
“You remember what happened when you didn’t listen; don’t you Ted?”
Daddy puts his peepee in my poopoo hole.
I like it, though.
Nice try, punk, but I bet a buck for a higher opening. Haha, c’mon, wittle bitter liar, prove otherwise. And that market action is the norm when a embattled CEO gets the boot, but then you wouldn’t know much of market history since your yeoman’s paycheck doesn’t afford you the opportunity to be a seriously engaged in the stock market.
Honesty hurts, no?
You forgot to change your sock puppet nick, Thor. Not smart.
I’m not sure what GM opened the next day, but it dropped from 3.62 to 2.70 at close. If it rose at the opening, it did an immediate nosedive after. Are you saying you can predict how a stock is going to do in the next few minutes, but not the next few hours?
And why won’t you refute my point about secured creditors and such? I mean, I’m just a widdle HICK engineer out in flyover country. What’re you afraid of?
Sockpuppet FAIL.
LOL
Failed son, failed Wall Street trader, failed Russian bidnessman, failed academic, failed writer, failed husband (multiple times, by his own account) and now, apparently, trying for failed meth addict.
Nobody can predict the future with 100% certainty. But they can manage market risk! A little something-something I knows me something about. I use stock options, a form of a what they call a derivative, to help manage equity-specific risk. If you’ve got experience there then we can talk on that level. FAS and its inverse, FAZ, have ’em some rich premiums, eh, and a man can make ’em some money on them rich time premiums, no? That’s what I find interesting.
I don’t care about your point, hence the lack of a response.
Peace!
Sounds like thor is getting bored with you know not-so-muchs.
thor, you’d be more believable if you didn’t pretend to be such a universally brilliant polymath.
It’s rare to come across someone who’s brilliant in 1)stock analysis, 2)bond analysis, 3)securities law, 4)bankruptcy law, or 5) macro.
You’re all five? And, just about as brilliant in all other subjects as well?
Why are you wasting your time here? There are Nobel Prizes to win, superpowers to develop in the lab and continents to conquer.
Sounds like thor is almost out of meth.
That thor makes me burn with rage!
thor can’t tell you where money comes from, bh. thor can’t join “systemic” with his favorite word, “risk”. Other than that? Solid Libertarian, that boi. Like an oak.
Beer?
Gonorrhea, I’d guess.
Bottom?
Simply knowing more than you hardly requires what one might call brilliance.
There was also that time he spent “arguing” that 100-53=45.
I’d call a flat assertion that it was going to rise pretty certain, fatuous even, uh, “Dexter.” When we’re left with this as your only prediction, well, it just makes you look that much sillier. I know all about options. I hope you didn’t pay too much for yours for GM.
I don’t care about your point, hence the lack of a response.
How odd, considering you spent so much effort on disparaging it in irrelevant terms just a short bit ago. You’d think a smart fellow like you would have taken me down with facts.
I have to admit that I have a certain admiration for someone who would come here daily and deliberately make a fool of himself.
Simply knowing more than you hardly requires what one might call brilliance.
There was also that time he spent “arguing†that 100-53=45.
Aaaahahahahahaha!!! Did that really happen??
That’s why thor uses Anonymizer™!
Look!!! Bunnies!!!
You’re a uneducated rural hick, Maggie. Sorry to be blunt, but.
That’s why thor is stupid enough to believe that actually makes him anonymous.
Do you know more than me in all those subjects? I don’t know. You’re unresponsive on some points, pedantic on others, and largely indulge in performance art. I have no way of gauging your knowledge.
I do know that the time it took me to become competent in any one field was time I didn’t have to become competent in other fields.
I come from downtown.
oh yes, but I’m not sure how you would search for it. someone mentioned that 48-ish percent didn’t vote for Obama and thor was all “HE GOT 52%!!! and McCain only got 45%” got all huffy when I pointed out that, um, there’s still some percentage there that didn’t vote for O!
I think thor’s pretty deep into the popskull by now. Time to make dinner. Ate’ logo, viado.
oh yes, but I’m not sure how you would search for it. someone mentioned that 48-ish percent didn’t vote for Obama and thor was all “HE GOT 52%!!! and McCain only got 45%†got all huffy when I pointed out that, um, there’s still some percentage there that didn’t vote for O!
There you go with that podunk HICK math of yours again, Maggie. Don’t you know that the real way to do math is to purchase FMZ math futures with back-loaded balloon sums, hedged with six-sigma derivative instruments issued by the Fed under EO#45123? Jesus, girl, what shack do you live in?!
52.9% No?
A high enough percentage to shit pound the uneducated rural hicks into political irrelevance.
The Man’s too big. The Man’s too strong!
Suffer, Maggie, in quiet desperation, if I may borrow a line from Pinky Floyd.
Yo, thor. Why you gotta come here and give us grief?
We don’t come over to your house and slap the cocks out of your mouth, now, do we?
Ladies and gentlemen, it is ok to ignore Tourette’s Syndrome boy.
Thank you.
Speaking of polls, Barky is down to +1 at Rasmussen.
Lowest. Rating. EVAR.
Will he go negative this week? Stay tuned, fans!
“Speaking of polls, Barky is down to +1 at Rasmussen.”
100 days.
Is that some sort of new land speed record?
I’m just another uneducated hick for thor to school, I guess.
Woe is me.
Suffer, Maggie, in quiet desperation, if I may borrow a line from Pinky Floyd.
Why not, you already ripped off Dire Straits.
I don’t want to use the word ‘fascim’. I want to use another 6-letter f-word :
Faggot.
That is what Perez Hilton, Keith Odorman, and that other faggot he interviewed in order to bash the lovely Miss California, are.
They have been so vile, that I will use a word that I never thought I would be pushed to use.
Faggots. All of them.
James, I don’t think there’s any call for that.
I think, as an experiment, Mr G. should create a post celebrating the 40th anniversary of the publication of The Very Hungry Caterpillar. Then we could measure the length of time it takes thor to thread-jack the topic, and grade his general creativity in relating it to “redumblicans.” With, maybe, a side bet going on which regular poster he attacks first.
Just a suggestion.
caterpillars are torture now!
huh, I thought Caterpillar was a corporation that Obama said was going to start rehiring laid-offs just as soon as his unread Stimulus bill was passed. Funny thing, that, Cat just announced more layoffs a few days ago.
Uh-oh…Megan McArdle is making some uncomfortable assertions and asking some heterodox questions:
Which brings us to the real question, which is, when did it become the government’s job to intervene in the bankruptcy process to move junior creditors who belong to favored political constituencies to the front of the line? Leave aside the moral point that these people lent money under a given set of rules, and now the government wants to intervene in our extremely well-functioning (and generous) bankruptcy regime solely in order to save a favored Democratic interest group.
No, leave that aside for the nonce, and let’s pretend that the most important thing in the world, far more interesting than stupid concepts like the rule of law, is saving unions. What do you think this is going to do to the supply of credit for industries with powerful unions? My liberal readers who ardently desire a return to the days of potent private unions should ask themselves what might happen to the labor movement in this country if any shop that unionizes suddenly has to pay through the nose for credit. Ask yourself, indeed, what this might do to Chrysler, since this is unlikely to be the last time in the life of the firm that they need credit. Though it may well be the last time they get it, on anything other than usurious terms.
I wonder if Mankiw or McArdle know that our resident all around genius has already decided on the issue and anyone who disagrees might just be the dumber than bacteria?
If anything her lead-in is even more merciless:
I see a lot of liberal blogs crowing that Obama’s really taking it to the hedge funds who are holding out on the Chrysler bankruptcy. Hedge fund managers, you see, have a civic duty to lose large amounts of other peoples’ money in order to ensure that the UAW makes as few sacrifices as possible in a bankruptcy.
Here’s the thing: hedge fund managers don’t care what the public thinks. The public isn’t allowed to invest in them. And the holdouts are, basically definitionally, not direct beneficiaries of federal largesse.
No, hedge funds care what rich people think. And if you were a rich people, how would you react to the news that a hedge fund manager who had a senior lien had refused to allow his claim to be treated like unsecured debt in a bankruptcy? Would you be outraged and pull your money? Remember that as a rich people, you could have donated large sums to the UAW, or the US government, if you wanted to.
This might well be good publicity for the holdouts. I’d certainly rather put my money in with Oppenheimer than with someone manager who is going to toss his fiduciary duty to the winds and make large tax-free gifts to the United Auto Workers. But then, I’m not very patriotic.
I’m thinking that Megan either hasn’t figured out the meaning of “I won.” yet, or, on the long shot side, doesn’t think what is right in front of her is really happening.
By golly, that sounds a lot like what we HICKS have been saying all along here, bh. Could it be that we’ve somehow stumbled onto the reality here?
And, this, from Clarke:
Yeah, imagine that, Jeffersonian.
Hey, sdferr, thanks for the Tapper link on the other thread.
I’m thinking that Megan either hasn’t figured out the meaning of “I won.†yet, or, on the long shot side, doesn’t think what is right in front of her is really happening.
You may be right.
De nada, bh. I notice that Hennessey is nearly silent on the Chrysler issue, his last post on the subject being last Sunday.
Obama has declared war against everyone except the Taliban. The investment bankers are going to fight back.
In the end, Obama as well as the unions will lose.
Obama is going to help the Republicans take back Congress in 2010, and Obama will have no chance in 2012.
Obama wrote the script himself. Unfortunately for him, he still thinks he is in Chicago where no one will notice.
And where is thor? He needs his bitch ass spanked again.
Oh, please don’t invoke. He’s been especially unhinged lately.
Not if ACORN can help it, IYKWIM.
Other than that, the reason the Chicago Boyz are trying to ram through all these sweeping changes in the way America both public and private) does business now, is because they expect to lose seats in the 2010 midterms, and they figure what they install before then cannot be undone. Get it passed now before the electorate wakes up. Sadly, if history is any guide, they’re probably correct.
The Clinton flacks he’s surrounded himself learned their lesson from 1994.
It is my fervent prayer that they didn’t learn too much. Or the correct, from their perspective, answers.
Oh, please don’t invoke. He’s been especially unhinged lately.
All the more reason. The more venomous and vitriolic thor gets, the more you know that he knows he’s wrong.
Nothing unusual. The boi rarely has a lucid moment. Even those, few and far between, are punctuated by outbursts of antisocial conduct disorders no doubt brought on by low self-esteem, his having been stuffed in various gym lockers during his extended adolescence. Stuffed in ’em by hicks, without a doubt.
Good for the hicks.
Like terrorists hijacking planes with boxcutters to crash them into buildings, there are some actions you can only perform once. After that everyone knows what you can and will do and makes what preparations they can.
Government however seems the exception, they always believe that all variables are constants, and remain so.
I think we’re going to see exactly why Obama is so adamant about banks not giving back the TARP money, geoffb. Behold the credit vehicle for Gettlefinger Motors.
Money lent from my right pocket to my left one eh. Of course in this case the funds are stolen to begin with.
BTW from another thread, nice BBQ Jeffersonian.