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Sharia Finance 101

Coming soon to a bank near you…?

118 Replies to “Sharia Finance 101”

  1. Stealth shariah = “When in Rome, do as the Vandals did.”

  2. happyfeet says:

    This is a bad idea.

  3. davis,br says:

    We’re fucked.

  4. BarrettBrown says:

    I’m not sure what the objection is here; Sharia banking is one of the few things about Islam that isn’t crazy, and basically concerns itself with structuring loans in an economically conservative fashion. It’s not some sort of crazy anti-American sabotage plan any more than are the sovereign wealth funds run in part by Islamic theocracies. Perhaps I’m missing something?

  5. Jeff G. says:

    You tell me.

  6. happyfeet says:

    The slopes are slippery I think.

  7. dre says:

    Will the banks have foot wash stations?

  8. happyfeet says:

    Cause duh this leads to everybody having to make sharia complianty things available by Baracky’s stupid ass dirty socialist mandate. He’s such a tool like that. Dirty socialist fag.

  9. psycho... says:

    I’m for it if it means I can pay off my car in bean pies.

    (I know.)

  10. BarrettBrown says:

    “You tell me.”

    Tell you what? I’m trying to figure out what exactly concerns you about this. Sharia finance is simply a different way of structuring loans and Treasury is simply looking into adopting some of these practices, which have nothing to do with any particular religion other than the fact that a particular religion thinks it’s some sort of holy Allah-ordained system.

  11. BarrettBrown says:

    Well, at any rate, happy belated election; I’m off to go drink at a Sharia bar.

  12. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    Sharia finance is simply a different way of structuring loans

    Clitoridectomy is simply a different way of structuring sexuality.

  13. Jim in KC says:

    Just don’t buy any pigs with that loan, BB.

    I guess that’s only tricky if you’re a hog farmer, which I’m not. Never could figure out how deep to plant them.

  14. lee says:

    The world knows America has lost it’s will to fight for our western democracy.

    This unilateral embracing of multiculturalism is going to turn out bad I fear.

  15. dre says:

    Consider the board chairman of the Dow Jones Islamic Index (IMANX), one Mufti Taqi Usmani. Mr. Usmani is widely reputed to be one of the world’s top experts on sharia finance. Whatever his stockpicking abilities may be, they are dwarfed by his jihadist credentials. A key executive of Pakistan’s prominent Deobandi jihadist factory, the madrassa Darul Karoom Karachi (currently headed by his brother, Rafi Usmani), Taqi Usmani has openly advocated jihad by Muslims in the West, and just last month again publicly endorsed suicide bombing and the Taliban.
    Since sharia-finance funds like the IMANX may invest in companies that are not completely halal — that derive their profit from interest or other sharia-prohibited activities — returns on investment in those companies must be purified by donating a portion of that ROI to charity. More often than not, it is people like Usmani who are paid lucratively to sit on sharia-finance boards in order to determine what charities will receive the sharia-finance institutions’ donations — and it’s a fair bet that the March of Dimes is not among them.
    IMANX itself is owned and operated by the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), an organization listed as an un-indicted co-conspirator by the Department of Justice in a recent terrorism-finance trial, and the proprietor of hundreds of radical mosques and Islamic institutions in the U.S., including some that have been closed down by the government as criminal enterprises.

    The chairman of both NAIT and IMANX, Bassam Osman, has been the top executive of terrorist-funding organizations like the Quranic Literacy Institute (suspected financiers of Hamas whose assets were seized by the U.S. in 1998) and the Islamic Academy of Florida (founded by Sami al-Arian, a convicted financier of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a terrorist criminal enterprise), and is a board member of other un-indicted co-conspirators like the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). Is Dow Jones aware of all this? Is Rupert Murdoch? And if they are not, shouldn’t they be?

    The IMANX marketing slogan is “Markets Fluctuate. Principles Don’t.” Judging by the ideological principles of those involved in its leadership, that is precisely what Wall Street — and the West — should fear.

    The legitimization of sharia in the West and its gradual imposition in Muslim communities and beyond is a key objective of sharia finance, and there is no doubt it has already made huge strides. Indeed, the precedent of legal sharia-finance transactions was used by the hapless archbishop of Canterbury to buttress his argument that introducing sharia in the United Kingdom was unavoidable.

    Given the reality of malignant Islamism now spreading into our own capital markets to the loud cheers of the same Wall Street masters of the universe who gave us sub-prime mortgage securitization, Americans have a right to ask: Where are the U.S. Treasury Department and the SEC, whose job it is to protect our markets? Given the outright fraudulent misrepresentation of the potential liabilities of sharia-finance funds under existing regulations, they should get involved soon.

    here

  16. meya says:

    Clearly if the words sharia and jihad are mentioned, and the bush administration is behind it, we can expect a rational response.

  17. Bob Reed says:

    But I thought O! was going to get all of the underground, offshore, and hidden money in the economy…?

    More hypocrisy…

  18. Carin says:

    Hope and Change is a failure. Baracky is elected, yet our trolls still offer NOTHING.

  19. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    You’re still here, meya?

    Get on that free gas, bitch.

  20. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    “Tell you what? I’m trying to figure out what exactly concerns you about this. Sharia finance is simply a different way of structuring loans and Treasury is simply looking into adopting some of these practices”

    Awesome!

    So it’s cool if I rub bacon fat on my Sharia checks, right?

    But, wait…the 12th Imam might be working check out at my local Tom Thumb. Christ he’d melt like the Wicked Witch of the West cuz he touched a “pig fat” check I wrote to pay for good aloe toilet paper.

    That would be awful for him. No Jews killed & condemed to death by a filthy pig check just for some comfortable toilet paper.

    Sorry.

    While you’re just an asshole, I like to treat mine well.

    Guess your American Sharia fella is just fucked.

    I need your wisdom and guidance Barrett. Exactly how hard do I laugh at you?

  21. lee says:

    I need your wisdom and guidance Barrett. Exactly how hard do I laugh at you?

    I believe that’s all covered in his book. He’ll be along shortly to show you where to get one.

  22. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    “Clearly if the words sharia and jihad are mentioned, and the bush administration is behind it”…

    “Clearly” someone’s in their junior year in college.

  23. meya says:

    ““Clearly” someone’s in their junior year in college.”

    I’m not surprised that our ignorance about sharia finance won’t be answered by comments on a thread entitled “sharia finance 101”?

  24. sun68 says:

    Barrett..so you think it’s ok for the US Treasury to incorporate some Islamic (or Sharia) principles into our banking system? You have no problem with Saudi Arabia getting a slim grip on our monetary policies? Islam (or Sharia) is NOT innocuous!! As a theocracy, they have no divide between religion and governing. It will bastardize our money/banking system and basically provide Islam some control, and do you think it will stop there? Do you have ANY idea what Sharia Law is?

    Our monetary/banking system is the perfect place to grab some control…see what it has done to western europe, NOW THEY’RE FUCKED!!

  25. JBean says:

    I’m not surprised that our ignorance about sharia finance won’t be answered by comments on a thread entitled “sharia finance 101″?

    Read No. 15. There’s plenty of information to remedy your ignorance there, if you’re serious.

  26. meya says:

    It does give a hint as to what sharia compliance, as it would be practiced by a US institution, means:

    “Since sharia-finance funds like the IMANX may invest in companies that are not completely halal — that derive their profit from interest or other sharia-prohibited activities — returns on investment in those companies must be purified by donating a portion of that ROI to charity.”

    But not much.

  27. happyfeet says:

    returns on investment in those companies must be purified

    That’s gay.

  28. urthshu says:

    Ah, OK, the bailout’s making more sense now.

  29. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    “Since sharia-finance funds like the IMANX may invest in companies that are not completely halal”…

    So, meya, halal investment guru that you are, does that mean they won’t be investing in Blackwater?

    I know those guys aren’t halal.

    They eat ham sandwiches in the field.

    Not halal…

    Too bad though.

    Blackwater stock has taken off like a fucking bottle rocket!!!

  30. dre says:

    If “Shariah” doesn’t ring any bells other than sounding foreign and somewhat ominous, it is simply the “religio-political-legal code authoritative Islam seeks to impose worldwide under a global theocracy,” Gaffney said.

    The Treasury Department will host a “seminar for the policy community” entitled “Islamic Finance 101,” and it’s all about getting warm and fuzzy with SCF. Co-sponsoring the event is the Islamic Finance Project at Harvard Law School.

    Harvard has benefitted mightily from the infusion of millions of dollars from a Wahhabi Saudi prince and his government, Gaffney said.

    Yes, it’s all about money.

    U.S. financial institutions, reeling from the credit crunch, are hungrily eyeballing more than $1 trillion in petrodollars, including Shariah-compliant bonds, mutual funds, mortgages, insurance, hedge funds, and real estate investment trusts.

    Dow Jones Corp. has even created its own index for Islamic-correct investments: the Dow Jones Islamic Index, according to The Coalition to Stop Shariah.

    Enter Uncle Sam, the always cash-strapped giant that must feed at any convenient trough these days, regardless of what strings are attached.

    And what a trough it is. The global Shariah market is growing at a 15 percent pace, courtesy of the oil boom and resurgence in Islamic fundamentalism, according to the Center for Security Policy. It’s expected to more than double during the next 10 years.

    Attractive chunk of available change and maybe even an imperative, but some watchdogs are ringing alarm bells.

    Investors Business Daily recently examined Shariah-compliant finance and its involvement with investments and other transactions that have been structured to conform to the orthodox teachings of Islamic law.

    “That means they can’t charge or earn interest, the cornerstone of our credit-driven economy,” the business publication advised. “Nor can they take any stake in ‘haram,’ or forbidden, industries, including meat and beverage producers (if they process any pork or alcohol); entertainment; gaming; and interest-based financing.

    “Wall Street is jumping into this hot new market oblivious to the risks not just to the bottom line, but to national security. It knows little about Shariah law and is turning to consultants to create ‘ethical’ products to sell.

    “Lost in the hype over these Muslim-friendly funds is that they must ‘purify’ their returns by transferring at least 3 percent into Islamic charities, many of which funnel funds to terrorists.”

    Bottom line: Shariah law obligates that a sizable portion of “zakat,” or giving — one of the pillars of Islam — go to support jihad. So many of the purification donations generated from Shariah finance could wind up in the hands of our enemy.

    Gaffney sees the latest Federal interest in SCF products as leading to dangerous ends.

    “Such submission — the literal meaning of ‘Islam’ — is not likely to remain confined long to the Treasury or its sister agencies,” he said. “Thanks to the extraordinary authority conferred on Treasury since September, backed by the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief, the department is now in a position to impose its embrace of Shariah on the U.S. financial sector.

    http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/gaffney_obama_islamic/2008/11/05/148071.html

  31. Mossberg500 says:

    Why are you guys engaging a fucking concern troll?

    Fill up my tank, bitch!

  32. Jeff G. says:

    “Lost in the hype over these Muslim-friendly funds is that they must ‘purify’ their returns by transferring at least 3 percent into Islamic charities, many of which funnel funds to terrorists.”

    Bottom line: Shariah law obligates that a sizable portion of “zakat,” or giving — one of the pillars of Islam — go to support jihad. So many of the purification donations generated from Shariah finance could wind up in the hands of our enemy.

    Yes, but, like, Newsmax.

    Call me when the NYT speaks on the subject.

    Meantime, let Meya do her own homework. Or else, start agitating for a variety of alternate ethnic and religious principles and practices to be introduced into US banking. Think of it as a multicultural enterprise.

    Me, I’m big into the Gypsy system. And I’m tired of trolling carnivals to do my alternative banking.

  33. B Moe says:

    …which have nothing to do with any particular religion other than the fact that a particular religion thinks it’s some sort of holy Allah-ordained system.

    Other than the fact.
    Barrett seems to spend a lot of time on things other than the facts, I have noticed.

  34. urthshu says:

    Just a modern version of the jizya. Or tribute, a la the Barbary Pirates.

  35. bigbooner says:

    Sounds like Kwanza.

  36. Benedick says:

    We should try Jewish banking. Oh wait . . . .

  37. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    “Me, I’m big into the Gypsy system.”

    Oh! Oh! [hand raised]

    Jeff, can I get my nose pierced with an “O” thingy or a bull ring or something?

    I so wanna work in the carnival! The Obama-Cylons are having all the fun.

    It’s not fair!

    I wanna doom America too!

  38. Benedick says:

    Do sharia loans require collateral damage?

  39. Benedick says:

    Do sharia bankers’ hours include five prayer breaks each day? ‘Cause if so, I’m never going to get to the front of the line.

  40. Benedick says:

    Is Ramadan a sharia bank holiday? ‘Cause if so, I’m gonna have to make a big withdrawal every October.

  41. Benedick says:

    Does sharia banking law impose death penalties for early withdrawal?

  42. urthshu says:

    Does the banker stone your wife for kiting checks? Does a trust fund for a girl mature at 9yo?

  43. dre says:

    What about piggy banks?

  44. Hubris says:

    It looks like these seminars began in 2002 as part of the effort to battle the financing of terrorism. Of course, the more likely explanation is that it’s really yet another example of the Bush administration embracing sharia.

  45. Mossberg500 says:

    Christmas Club Accounts?

  46. McGehee says:

    If sharia banking means I won’t be able to use my credit card to pay for lunch at Porky’s House of Bacon, there’s going to be some serious ass-kicking.

  47. “According to the Quran, the zakat funds are meant for “the poor and the paupers …, for those in bondage and debt, and for the wayfarers.” All these are conventional recipients of charity. The funds are also to be used for the “bureaucracy,” those who collect and administer the funds. But two other items are also mentioned which deserve special attention. The funds are to be used in “the service of Allah” … and for “gaining over [or reconciling, or inclining] the hearts … ” to Islam (QurAn 9:60).

    “In the technical vocabulary of Islam, the first phrase, “in the service, or way, of Allah,” means religious warfare, or jihad. Zakat funds are to be spent on buying arms, equipment, and horses. The
    second phrase, “gaining over, or reconciling, hearts,” means “bribes” in unadorned language. The faith of new converts should be strengthened with the help of generous “gifts,” and that of adversaries should be subverted by the same means. This was an important limb of the Prophet’s religious offensive and diplomacy, and as the Quranic verse shows, it had for the Prophet, as it still has for his followers, a heavenly sanction.”
    Ram Swarup, “The Poor Tax”, Understanding Islam Through Hadis”,

  48. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    I’ll sign up for Sharia Banking as soon as Jimmy Dean Sausage goes halal…

    …and Earl Campbell Hot Links are sliced and served on tooth picks at the Sharia Bank teller windows.

  49. Possibly the only bank where the tellers are all masked.

  50. Lamontyoubigdummy says:

    “Possibly the only bank where the tellers are all masked.”

    Well the FBI wouldn’t have to worry much.

    Bank Robber: (whisper) Give me all the money, I have a bomb inside the bank.
    Teller: Yeah, well I have a bomb too!…and I’m wearing mine kafir!

  51. Andrew the Noisy says:

    Shariah compliant finance. Because, you know, money works best according to religious principles. Like wouldn’t our economy rawk if we just got rid of that pesky usury business?

    And because it involves the word “charity,” it has lefties at “hello”. BB’s prepared to let it get to first base before the blind date even starts.

    Shariah compliant finance. Exactly where WILL the moonies draw the line?

  52. Obstreperous Infidel says:

    Have to second Hubris’ comment. I remember reading the Bush administration “reaching out” to Muslims in this vein. Again, I think the man, from what little I know of him, is a good man, but…As for BB saying this is A-ok with him? LOL. If there was a “christian” banking system, he’d be up in arms. Remember it’s all about bongs and abortions for BB. And yes, I realize that Islam is against both those things, but, shit man, they’re like swarthy and shit.

  53. pdbuttons says:

    i’d gladly pay u for a hamburgalar on tuesday
    but i be hungry monday

    i’d pat ur dog on wenesday
    if it wasn’t so filthy

    72 virgins
    or a blow-up doll?

  54. davis,br says:

    dre: what about piggy banks.

    Heh. You win the Daily Internets.

  55. JWebb says:

    Sharia—baby—Sharia can you come out tonight
    why don’t you come out to my twist party
    where the bright moon shines
    we’ll dance the night away, I’m gonna make you mine—
    Sharia—baby—Sharia can you come out tonight
    you—better ask your mama tell–her everything is all right
    why don’t you come out with your red dress on
    mmm ya look so fine
    move it nice and easy, girl—ya make me loose my mind
    Sharia—-Sharia baby—
    Sharia won’t you come out tonight
    come come, come out tonight, come come, come out tonight…

  56. pdbuttons says:

    #55-sweet!
    i like to bury my dolls so’s just the heads
    be showing
    then i rock rock rock!

  57. BarrettBrown says:

    You know, Sharia also entails discriminating against gay people, so by supporting the Republican Party, you’re all Sharia compliant! Give yourselves a big round of applause! GO PROPOSITION 8! PRAISE ALLAH!

    In all seriousness, though, your objections are kind of all over the place here. No one’s talking about giving a small portion of Treasury funds to Hamas; they’re simply considering adopting certain reasonable banking practices that Muslims happen to be fond of and which almost certainly predate Islam anyway. They’re not talking about making it illegal to invest in a fucking Boar’s Head plant, for instance, and people who engage in banking practices that Muslims engage in aren’t going to turn into Muslims. This seems to be one of those cases in which none of you really know what it is that you’re worried about and don’t really understand the subject in question anyway. That makes me sad!

    :-(

    That’s my sad face! IT IS NOT REALLY MY FACE IT IS ONLY AN ABSTRACT REPRESENTATION ZOMG!

    Anyway, I remain of the position that Carthage must be destroyed.

  58. Jeff G. says:

    Wow, if only Gaffney and Spencer were as informed as Hubris! Nothing to see here. I’ll just send them Hubris’ link!

    Boy, won’t they have egg on their faces for not knowing as much about this as Hubris! And to think, they’re concerned. Silly xenophobes.

  59. Jeff G. says:

    Yes, BB. Republicans are all homophobes. Even the gay ones! Some of whom post here! Self haters! You GO girl!

    And really, I’ll put my money on Spencer and Gaffney understanding the issue better than us both. Even as well-informed on every subject as you are, and as consistently opposed to multiculturalizing institutions as I am.

  60. BarrettBrown says:

    I didn’t say that all Republicans are all homophobes. You’re simply attributing a patently false assertion to me so that you can refute it. I don’t know what you hope to accomplish by that.

  61. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    I didn’t say that all Republicans are all homophobes.

    Right, you just said they’re all into discriminating against them. For fun, I’d guess. Thanks for pointing that critical distinction out, Barrett. I’ll bet Jeff feels just silly now having missed the nuance.

  62. Mossberg500 says:

    California is a denizen of Republicans? Who knew?

  63. BarrettBrown says:

    No, I didn’t say that “they’re all into discriminating against them.” I said that the Republican Party does, and that you guys tend to support the Republican Party, which puts you that much more in line with Islamic nonsense even if you’d prefer not to be involved with such things. I imagine that Jeff, for instance, does not wish to discriminate against gays and probably wishes that the GOP would stop making such things a cornerstone of its utterances and policy implementations, and I imagine that many of the people who post here feel the same way.

  64. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    GO PROPOSITION 8! PRAISE ALLAH!

    California Republicans – 34%

    Prop 8 passed with 52.4% of the vote. Who are the rest of those homophobes discriminators, Barrett?

  65. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Oh, bullshit.

    You know, Sharia also entails discriminating against gay people, so by supporting the Republican Party, you’re all Sharia compliant!

    If you’re gonna dance, Barrett, at least do the Macerena or something. There might be some entertainment value in watching that.

  66. BarrettBrown says:

    “California is a denizen of Republicans? Who knew?”

    I’m sure the current Republican governor has an inkling that there are enough Republicans in California to turn out for an election and vote for Republicans and Republican-supported propositions. The gays probably realize that, too, since they get to have their marriages taken away from them all thanks to Proposition 8.

  67. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    The court should write the laws as they see fit and people should just fucking deal with it. Otherwise, people could get their feelings hurt.

    How’s that libertarian thing working out for you, Barrett?

  68. BarrettBrown says:

    “Who are the rest of those homophobes discriminators, Barrett?”

    Democrats and Independents.

    “If you’re gonna dance, Barrett, at least do the Macerena or something.”

    The quote you pasted is exactly how I characterized it to be – a statement that the Republican Party actively discriminates against gays and that you support the Republican Party. It doesn’t say that all Republicans discriminate against gays. I’ve also explicitly said that I don’t think that all Republicans discriminate against gays, so perhaps, for a change, you could show some good faith.

  69. BarrettBrown says:

    “The court should write the laws as they see fit and people should just fucking deal with it. Otherwise, people could get their feelings hurt.

    How’s that libertarian thing working out for you, Barrett?”

    It looks like you’re trying to attribute more views to me that I don’t happen to have. I don’t think the “court should write laws as they see fit;” I think they should interpret the state or national constitution in accordance with its original intent.

  70. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    The quote you pasted is exactly how I characterized it to be – a statement that the Republican Party actively discriminates against gays and that you support the Republican Party.

    And that statement is utter bullshit in a thin veneer over the unmistakable homophobe inference that you claim isn’t there. A policy on retaining the existing definition of marriage is not discrimination. So, what is this “active discrimination” you see?

  71. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    I don’t think the “court should write laws as they see fit;” I think they should interpret the state or national constitution in accordance with its original intent.

    Yet when they did the former and violated the latter, you have a problem with the the people drawing in their leash because, you know, it made people sad.

  72. BarrettBrown says:

    “And that statement is utter bullshit in a thin veneer over the unmistakable homophobe inference that you claim isn’t there.”

    And *that* statement really proves your point and you win the internet for making it.

    “A policy on retaining the existing definition of marriage is not discrimination.”

    That policy specifically targets a subsection of marriages and renders them illegally invalid. If you don’t consider that to be discrimination, then I’d be interested in learning your definition of discrimination, because I’m sure it’s really neat.

    “So, what is this ‘active discrimination’ you see?”

    You know those anti-sodomy statutes that were in effect in many places up until recently, when one of the last ones in Texas was struck down? I consider the making and enforcement of laws that criminalize consensual sexual behavior among consenting adults to be “active discrimination.” I also consider the anti-gay mass mailings I get from major conservative organizations like Family Research Council to constitute “active discrimination” insomuch as they routinely call for the return of such laws and so do some of the folks who show up to hang with Mitt Romney at Liberty Sunday telecasts and mourn that we no longer execute gays as we are commanded to do by Judaism and Christianity and Islam, although I support anyone’s right to think or say anything they’d like about gays and obviously oppose “hate speech” laws.

  73. BarrettBrown says:

    “Yet when they did the former and violated the latter, you have a problem with the the people drawing in their leash because, you know, it made people sad.”

    My understanding is that the court considered bans on such things to be unconstitutional; you may or may not agree and I may or may not agree, not knowing much about the Californian constitution. I have a problem with “the people drawing in the leash” of the gays and preventing them from engaging in certain forms of consensual contracts with each other, and I certainly don’t trust “the people” when they talk all of this happy talk about liberty and then turn around and support such nonsense as well as the criminalization of drugs and prostitution, because it thus becomes clear that liberty is not their ultimate objective.

  74. BarrettBrown says:

    And by “illegally invalid,” I mean simply invalid, of course. Imma go get some coffee.

  75. happyfeet says:

    I like coffee in the mornings but really it’s good anytime I think. Sharia financing is a lot like gay marriage. Lefty wedge issues what they can be on the victimy side of and help people understand that no you are not an American yeah I know you thought you were but no for real you are a victim.

  76. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    That policy specifically targets a subsection of marriages and renders them illegally invalid.

    A subset of “marriages” recently created by dint of the court deciding to legislate. And a policy implemented by the people in a lack of appreciation for that judicial legislation. But I know this is awful because it made some people sad.

    You know those anti-sodomy statutes that were in effect in many places up until recently, when one of the last ones in Texas was struck down?

    And you’re suggesting that those were implemented by Republicans?

    I also consider the anti-gay mass mailings I get from major conservative organizations like Family Research Council to constitute “active discrimination” insomuch as they routinely call for the return of such laws and so do some of the folks who show up to hang with Mitt Romney at Liberty Sunday telecasts and mourn that we no longer execute gays as we are commanded to do by Judaism and Christianity and Islam, although I support anyone’s right to think or say anything they’d like about gays and obviously oppose “hate speech” laws.

    And the Phelps clan are Democrats. So, they’re “The Democrat Party”, right? Ridiculous. Here’s how you could make a convincing argument: Present the submitted bills or party platforms that demonstrate your thesis. Or, you could continue to waste time cartooning. I tell you this because I’m a giver.

    I have a problem with “the people drawing in the leash” of the gays and preventing them from engaging in certain forms of consensual contracts with each other…

    California law provides for consensual contracts between gay couples and Prop 8 doesn’t change that. It only restates the definition of marriage.

  77. BarrettBrown says:

    “Here’s how you could make a convincing argument: Present the submitted bills or party platforms that demonstrate your thesis.”

    Okay. Will the GOP 2008 party platform do? It states:

    “Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it.”

    FOR THE CHILDREN!

    It goes on to target gays who are serving in the military and those would who like to:

    “To protect our servicemen and women, and ensure that America’s Armed Forces remain the best in the world, we affirm the timelessness of those values, the benefits of traditional military culture, and the incompatibility of homosexuality with military service.”

    I’m assuming you don’t think that discriminating against gays constitutes discrimination.

    “And the Phelps clan are Democrats.”

    I know, and Al Gore went to fundraisers at their home during the 1980s, and I’m not too big on him or his damned wife or the Democratic Party in general, but insomuch as that the GOP plank contains a bunch of argle-bargle about how gays should be barred from the military whereas the Democratic plank does not, and seeing as how poll data clearly indicates that Republican voters tend to be more hostile towards gays in general than are Democrats, I think it’s safe to say that there’s more anti-gay sentiment in the Republican Party than there is in the Democratic Party.

    “So, they’re “The Democrat Party”, right? Ridiculous.”

    The Phelps clan are not active participants in the Democratic Party who get face time with presidents and major candidates for the presidency. Tony Perkins is. You know the difference between someone who is denounced by pretty much everyone in both parties someone who is actively courted and listen to by, say, Mitt Romney, Tom DeLay, and George W. Bush.

    “California law provides for consensual contracts between gay couples and Prop 8 doesn’t change that.”

    Prop 8 changes the constitution in order to bar a certain form of contract between gay couples.

    So, how about GOP platform with the stuff about how homosexuality is “incompatible with military service?” Any thoughts on that one?

  78. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Hey, all 4 of these Republicans oppose SSM. You may be on to something, Barrett. Looks like we got 4 more years of O’Same after all.

  79. happyfeet says:

    Clearly this only ends when we have our first gay president. Baracky should foreswear a second term I think so we can elect us one and get on with the healing.

  80. sun68 says:

    FOCUS…this discussion is NOT ABOUT PROP 8…FUCKING GROW UP AND SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE!!!

    Anyone that thinks that Saudi Arabia’s “innocent” muzzling into our banking/monetary system sees it as “just expanding their investments” deserves a good stoning just for their stupidity. Now “stupidity” is not an edict of the Quran but it clearly endorses it, hence its successful spread into all western countries. Our collective desperation shouldn’t ever allow our enemies to get into a position to squeeze our nuts into submission.

    “Multiculturalism” is a “fairness” misnomer that will lead this country into the trap of western europe, most of whom have literally been overtaken by “niceness” to it’s own peril. All those that have allowed such innocuous practices as Sharia (or Islamic) Finance to bail them out are now at the mercy of its ever growing muslim community. Holland now experiences a dutch minority to muslims and expects in 10-11 years a complete muslim society.

  81. Sdferr says:

    But happyfeet, I thought we were told a couple of years ago that we already had one?

  82. happyfeet says:

    Ack. Didn’t count I guess. It’s like how Sarah Palin wasn’t a for real woman I think.

  83. BarrettBrown says:

    “Hey, all 4 of these Republicans oppose SSM. You may be on to something, Barrett. Looks like we got 4 more years of O’Same after all.”

    No kidding. All four are active participants in discrimination to some degree or another, and all four support ridiculous laws that criminalize the consensual behavior of tens of millions of American citizens. And two of them belong to a party which is actively seeking to throw gay servicemen out of the military, as you’ve wisely failed to acknowledge.

    “FUCKING GROW UP AND SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE!!!”

    OKAY!

  84. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    “Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it.”

    And?

    “To protect our servicemen and women, and ensure that America’s Armed Forces remain the best in the world, we affirm the timelessness of those values, the benefits of traditional military culture, and the incompatibility of homosexuality with military service.”

    I’m assuming you don’t think that discriminating against gays constitutes discrimination.

    Just as discriminating against women constitutes discrimination. That’s about all you’ve got and I’ll give it to you. Register them all for the draft, I say. Fat or skinny, tits or no, rump rangers, carpet munchers and breeders alike. Anybody can peel potatoes, assuming we can ever get that contract back from KBR. I don’t care what anybody, including those nasty Republicans Bill Clinton what ordered it and the other one what wrote it, Colin Powell, say about it.

    I know, and Al Gore went to fundraisers at their home during the 1980s…

    The Phelps clan are not active participants in the Democratic Party who get face time with presidents and major candidates for the presidency.

    Are you sure that’s what you meant to say, Barrett?

    Prop 8 changes the constitution in order to bar a certain form of contract between gay couples.

    Maybe you ought to read it, Barrett.

    This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the
    provisions of Article II, Section 8, of the California Constitution.
    This initiative measure expressly amends the California Constitution by
    adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are
    printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.
    SECTION 1. Title
    This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage
    Protection Act.”
    SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution,
    to read:
    SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
    in California.

    Gays are not exempted from taking part in marriage. And I have the right to get an abortion.

    Prop 8 merely puts into the CA constitution what that nasty Republican Bill Clinton put into federal law when he signed the DOMA. Marriage is between one man and one woman. No one has had anything other than a label taken away from them. Which must be wrong because it made them sad, right?

  85. happyfeet says:

    I don’t care if gays are in the military but gay marriage I think is really sad. Saddling gay people with heteronormative institutions is oppressive I think. They’re not very clever I don’t think. Might as well demand the right to be stoned for adultery while they’re at it.

  86. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Clearly this only ends when we have our first married gay president.

    Fixed that for you, ‘feets.

  87. happyfeet says:

    Thanks, P. Exactly so.

  88. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    And two of them belong to a party which is actively seeking to throw gay servicemen out of the military, as you’ve wisely failed to acknowledge.

    Yes, it was brilliant of me to not be reading and responding to your post that hadn’t been posted while I was writing the one that landed right after it. Also, being psychic ROXX!!!

  89. BarrettBrown says:

    “Are you sure that’s what you meant to say, Barrett?”

    Yes; noticed how I used the present tense. Gore met with Phelps before he started doing the stuff that everyone dislikes him for; back then, he was just a run-of-the-mill anti-gay Christian weirdo, and now he’s gone overboard and thus doesn’t have quite the influence as, say, Tony Perkins or James Dobson. Again, you obviously know this.

    “Gays are not exempted from taking part in marriage.”

    “SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
    in California.”

    “Gays are not exempted from taking part in marriage.”

    “SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
    in California.”

    “Gays are not exempted from taking part in marriage.”

    “SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
    in California.”

    Let’s see if that works.

    “Prop 8 merely puts into the CA constitution what that nasty Republican Bill Clinton put into federal law when he signed the DOMA.”

    I know, both strip recognition of gay marriages on the part of a state or federal government.

  90. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    BTW, where are those Republican anti-sodomy proposals you were telling us about, Barrett?

  91. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    “Gays are not exempted from taking part in marriage.”

    “SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized
    in California.”

    Yes, that’s right. You see, gays are either men or women, and either way, they’re legally eligible to partake in marriage. What they’re not entitled to do is redefine it any more than I’m entitled to redefine “African-American” or “Woman” and get me some of them public contracting preferences.

    I know, both strip recognition of gay marriages on the part of a state or federal government.

    Except that no such recognition existed to be stripped, with the recent exception of that legislated from the bench and granted to people who knew damned well that there was a better than average chance of that decision being overturned in a matter of months. If you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to get a fresh hanky. This one’s soaked.

  92. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Maybe we could get Mayor Cicciline to run, though I don’t know if we can get him married by ’12. He’s not really the monogamous sort. But if anybody brought up his brother John going to federal prison and how he got there, we could be all “HOMOPHOBE!!!”

    That sounds like fun.

  93. BarrettBrown says:

    “BTW, where are those Republican anti-sodomy proposals you were telling us about, Barrett?”

    As I mentioned, Republicans and “conservatives” tend to be more supportive of such things, which is why many of their activists and state legislators were actively opposed to the overturning of sodomy law, generally for the wrong reasons. Concerned Women for America, Focus on the Family, and the Family Research Council, among other groups of less significance, were all upset, for instance. The governor thought the law was swell and said so.

  94. lee says:

    all four support ridiculous laws that criminalize the consensual behavior of tens of millions of American citizens

    Barrett, you fucking liar.

    Don’t panic Alice. Go ahead and take that cock in the ass, no one will prosecute you.

    You just can’t claim it is a legal marriage.

    Now go beat up an old lady, all the fags are doing it.

  95. BarrettBrown says:

    “Barrett, you fucking liar.”

    RAAAAGGGEEEEEE!!!!!!

    In that quote, I was talking about laws concerning drugs and prostitution and such things. Everyone seems to have understood this except for you.

  96. happyfeet says:

    Prostitution a lot grows our economy from the bottom up I think.

  97. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    As I mentioned, Republicans and “conservatives” tend to be more supportive of such things…

    So you were blowing smoke out of your ass when you said…

    You know those anti-sodomy statutes that were in effect in many places up until recently, when one of the last ones in Texas was struck down? I consider the making and enforcement of laws that criminalize consensual sexual behavior among consenting adults to be “active discrimination.”

    …in response to my request for a description of “active discrimination” in the Republican party, then? Got it.

  98. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Oh, and that second quote in my #100? Totally about drugs and prostitution.

  99. BarrettBrown says:

    “Yes, that’s right. You see, gays are either men or women, and either way, they’re legally eligible to partake in marriage.”

    Great, I’ll let them know. “Hey, it turns out that you can marry another consenting adult, just not the one of your choice!”

    “Except that no such recognition existed to be stripped, with the recent exception of that legislated from the bench and granted to people who knew damned well that there was a better than average chance of that decision being overturned in a matter of months. If you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to get a fresh hanky. This one’s soaked.”

    As you say, there was that “recent exception” which was implemented based on the state court’s reading of the state constitution, and which resulted in quite a few marriages among gays who were happy to have finally been recognized as officially being married, which means a lot to many gays because of the difficult situation they’ve faced throughout history. If you don’t feel bad for the people who were crying their eyes out the other day when they were informed that the state would no longer recognize their marriages in the same way that it recognizes the marriages of their fellow citizens, that’s certainly your right. And if you think it’s cute and funny to talk about how much you don’t care about those people’s struggle to be fully accepted into society, then that’s also your right.

  100. BarrettBrown says:

    “So you were blowing smoke out of your ass when you said…”

    I’m sorry, that was the most recent example of Republicans being in favor of the enforcement of sodomy laws. Did you want me to cite an example of them actually making the anti-sodomy law?

  101. Hubris says:

    Wow, if only Gaffney and Spencer were as informed as Hubris! Nothing to see here. I’ll just send them Hubris’ link!

    Boy, won’t they have egg on their faces for not knowing as much about this as Hubris! And to think, they’re concerned. Silly xenophobes.

    “Is there someone else up there we could talk to?”

  102. Jeff G. says:

    I hear them blacks ain’t too big on the gayness.

    I think they went, like, 97% for Obama. Someone should have told them that Focus on the Family would welcome them. Maybe they would have gone, say, 9% for Republicans.

    TIDAL WAVE!

  103. BarrettBrown says:

    At any rate, one answer is Idaho, which actually re-instituted its sodomy law briefly, this having been signed into law by a Republican governor. Again, Democrats do it, too, or used to, but obviously tend to be opposed to the concept of such laws whereas the somewhat more religiously “conservative” constituents that make up a relatively large portion of the GOP obviously tend to be for them. So, I mean, I don’t even know what you think you’re arguing here. Perhaps you should state your position very clearly so that even a guy like me, who’s too stupid to see the inherent virtue of the Republican Party, can understand it.

  104. happyfeet says:

    Idaho is never the answer, Barrett.

  105. sun68 says:

    Jeff, thank you for posting this story..but this discussion is an indication of the ignorance that will destroy this country.

    I don’t give a shit about gay rights, if it means that we’re moving towards our next generation witnessing and participating in the stoning or public flogging of their own parents (gay or straight) for any indiscretions that our society FREEly condones, etc, etc, etc…

    Sharia (or Islamic) compliant finance is a small step for short-sighted, desperate, and ignorant Americans, but a giant step for Islam. Islam spreads like a cancer, by force, if necessary, they don’t fight for rights, they fight to spread…it will forcefully relieve each of us of one “little [harmless]” right at a time. It should be a MAJOR concern for ANY GAY, LESBIAN, OR FEMALE or those that are acquainted with persons of this “persuasion”.

    So it may behoove you all to get your heads out of your “asses” (pun intended)..It might help to either stop thinking with your dick or your ass.

  106. McGehee says:

    I would say Idaho is almost never the answer, because what if somebody asks, “What state is Pocatello in,” and you’ve ruled out Idaho ever being the answer, what can you say?

  107. B Moe says:

    Clearly this only ends when we have our first gay president. Baracky should foreswear a second term I think so we can elect us one and get on with the healing.

    Barrack and thor could just come out of the closet. thor might even be able to help Michelle find fruit that way.

  108. B Moe says:

    I’m sorry, that was the most recent example of Republicans being in favor of the enforcement of sodomy laws. Did you want me to cite an example of them actually making the anti-sodomy law?

    Sodomy laws aren’t discriminatory, BB.

  109. mindlesley says:

    Happyfeet’s zippy pith knocks the sox off some of the more laboured responses. Didn’t Jefferson say (I think): Banks are more dangerous than any standing army”. Sharia law has probably got some good points but what makes it dangerous, and I’m including in this a lot of the extremist crap I read on this site, is its inflexibility, severity and medieval barbarity.In New Zealand, which has just gone way Right in their general election, some people are supporting sheep/human interfaces recognised by law. Here we just like fruits and vegetables. If I liked it up the bum I’d be careful of them Idaho potatoes. Lotsaluck, Mindlesley.

  110. dre says:

    “Sharia law has probably got some good points ”

    Something about goats I’m sure.

  111. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    Great, I’ll let them know.

    Would you? That would probably be helpful.

    As you say, there was that “recent exception” which was implemented based on the state court’s reading of the state constitution, and which resulted in quite a few marriages among gays who were happy to have finally been recognized as officially being married, which means a lot to many gays because of the difficult situation they’ve faced throughout history.

    And now, based on the sequence of predictable events I spelled out earlier, they’re not happy. I understand that, though I’m having trouble recalling when they were enslaved or lynched or refused the vote or made to sit at the back of the bus. I’m sure you’ll enlighten me. But in the meantime, I’m going to maintain that we don’t need to change the lexicon because a small minority will be sad if we don’t. Do you disagree with that notion, Barrett?

    If you don’t feel bad for the people who were crying their eyes out the other day when they were informed that the state would no longer recognize their marriages in the same way that it recognizes the marriages of their fellow citizens, that’s certainly your right.

    You got me there, Barrett. LET’S REWRITE THE CONSTITUTION AGAIN!!! THIS TIME WITH COMPASSION!!!

    And if you think it’s cute and funny to talk about how much you don’t care about those people’s struggle to be fully accepted into society, then that’s also your right.

    i don’t see where there’s a problem with gays being accepted in society, outside of those nasty Republican Godbotherers who probably hate them some niggers too. I avoid them and I recommend the same to, well, everybody.

    sun68, please calm down. We’re old friends chewing the fat here. Do you know how to find LGF and Jihad Watch, because if not, I can show you.

  112. Pretty Boy Pablo says:

    So, I mean, I don’t even know what you think you’re arguing here. Perhaps you should state your position very clearly so that even a guy like me, who’s too stupid to see the inherent virtue of the Republican Party, can understand it.

    No problem. This…

    You know, Sharia also entails discriminating against gay people, so by supporting the Republican Party, you’re all Sharia compliant!

    …your position, is bullshit. If you need me to say it again, another 50 posts from now, just ask.

  113. sun68 says:

    PBP..sorry still going thru the [pres-elect] grieving process..a couple shots and a ham sandwich should take the defying edge off. Thanks for the info.

  114. Andrew the Noisy says:

    And again, because SCF says “charity” BB is prepared to give it a hug with open arms (no kiss though, Republicans might be hiding in the bushes, watching your threadjack).

    Here’s the question, BB.

    What in the living name of Fuck do we need Shariah Compliant Finance…for?

    Are you prepared to argue that Muslims who currently live in or do business with the U.S. are now incapable of meeting their zadek requirements on their own? What is the benefit of the change going to be? Because right now, all I see is “oh, it’s just nicer than our big mean system.” Which is typical moon juice as far as I can tell.

  115. give me doughnuts says:

    The North American Islamic Trust owns 69.8 percent of the Dow Jones Islamic Fund. The Justice Department identified NAIT last June as an unindicted co-conspirator in supporting Hamas’s murderous anti-Israeli terrorism. The Trust also owns Albany, New York’s Masjid As-Salam mosque. In April 2007, its founder, Mohammed Mosharref Hossain, and imam, Yassin Muhiddin Aref, received 15-year prison sentences for assisting an FBI sting that feigned an operation to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat in Manhattan with a shoulder-fired missile.

    So it seems that Sharia-Compliant financing DOES mean that you fund Hamas.

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