David Hardy, PJM, gives us some insight into the workings of “grassroots” fascism of the kind favored by “progressives” — in this case, “moderate” Barack Obama, who has shown a very troubling tendency to insist upon control of any and every narrative, even going so far as to threaten legal action, or send out Action Alerts intended to direct his followers to shout down and smear those holding opposing viewponts:
As a presidential candidate, Barack Obama must demonstrate executive experience, but he remains strangely silent about his eight years (1994-2002) as a director of the Joyce Foundation, a billion dollar tax-exempt organization. He has one obvious reason: during his time as director, Joyce Foundation spent millions creating and supporting anti-gun organizations.
There is another, less known, reason.
During Obama’s tenure, the Joyce Foundation board planned and implemented a program targeting the Supreme Court. The work began five years into Obama’s directorship, when the Foundation had experience in turning its millions into anti-gun “grassroots†organizations, but none at converting cash into legal scholarship.
The plan’s objective was bold: the judicial obliteration of the Second Amendment.
Joyce’s directors found a vulnerable point. When judges cannot rely upon past decisions, they sometimes turn to law review articles. Law reviews are impartial, and famed for meticulous cite-checking. They are also produced on a shoestring. Authors of articles receive no compensation; editors are law students who work for a tiny stipend.
In 1999, midway through Obama’s tenure, the Joyce board voted [.pdf available at link] to grant the Chicago-Kent Law Review $84,000, a staggering sum by law review standards. The Review promptly published an issue in which all articles attacked the individual right view of the Second Amendment.
In a breach of law review custom, Chicago-Kent let an “outsider†serve as editor; he was Carl Bogus, a faculty member of a different law school. Bogus had a unique distinction [.pdf available at link]: he had been a director of Handgun Control Inc. (today’s Brady Campaign), and was on the advisory board of the Joyce-funded Violence Policy Center.
Bogus solicited only articles hostile to the individual right view of the Second Amendment, offering authors $5,000 each. But word leaked out, and Prof. Randy Barnett of Boston University volunteered to write in defense of the individual right to arms. Bogus refused to allow him to write for the review, later explaining that “sometimes a more balanced debate is best served by an unbalanced symposium.†Prof. James Lindgren, a former Chicago-Kent faculty member, remembers that when Barnett sought an explanation he “was given conflicting reasons, but the opposition of the Joyce Foundation was one that surfaced at some time.†Joyce had bought a veto power over the review’s content.
[my emphasis]
The thrust here is that Obama, as director of the tax-exempt Joyce Foundation, was instrumental in a proliferating a scheme under which the SCOTUS would be unduly influenced by a carefully manipulated “grassroots” groundswell of attacks on the individual rights view of the Second Amendment (a movement that reached one of its peaks — and then valleys — with Michael Bellesiles Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture, a fraudulent book embraced by anti-individual rights scholars of the Second Amendment).
What we see here are academic elites attempting to game the system in order to both influence legal thinking and circumvent organic debate by way of “manufacturing consent” — something that is easily justified by those who come out of the progressive / New Left tradition, where the ends justify the means once the means are rationalized as the Greater Good (as decided upon not by voters, but by those who presume to think it appropriate to “teach” voters how to think, even if in doing so these teachers have to take certain liberties).
Continues Hardy:
The plan worked smoothly. One court, in the course of ruling [.pdf available at link] that there was no individual right to arms, cited the Chicago-Kent articles eight times. Then, in 2001, a federal Court of Appeals in Texas determined that the Second Amendment was an individual right.
The Joyce Foundation board (which still included Obama) responded by expanding its attack on the Second Amendment. Its next move came when Ohio State University announced it was establishing the “Second Amendment Research Center†as a thinktank headed by anti-individual-right historian Saul Cornell. Joyce put up no less than $400,000 to bankroll its creation. The grant was awarded at the board’s December 2002 meeting, Obama’s last function as a Joyce director. [.pdf available at link]. In reporting the grant, the OSU magazine Making History made clear that the purpose was to influence a future Supreme Court case:
“The effort is timely: a series of test cases - based on a new wave of scholarship, a recent decision by a federal Court of Appeals in Texas, and a revised Justice Department policy-are working their way through the courts. The litigants challenge the courts’ traditional reading of the Second Amendment as a protection of the states’ right to organize militia, asserting that the Amendment confers a much broader right for individuals to own guns. The United States Supreme Court is likely to resolve the debate within the next three to five years.â€Â
(45:17-18; online link [.pdf available at link]; slow).
The Center proceeded to generate articles denying the individual right to arms. The OSU connection also gave Joyce an academic money laundry. When it decided to buy an issue of the Stanford Law and Policy Review, it had a cover. Joyce handed OSU $125,000 [.pdf available at link] for that purpose; all the law review editors knew was that OSU’s Foundation granted them that breathtaking sum, and a helpful Prof. Cornell volunteered to organize the issue. (The review was later sufficiently embarassed to publish an open letter [.pdf available at link] on the affair).
The Joyce directorate’s plan almost succeeded. The individual rights view won out in the Heller Supreme Court appeal, but only by 5-4. The four dissenters were persuaded in part by Joyce-funded writings, down to relying on an article which misled them on critical historical documents.
Having lost that fight, Obama now claims he always held the individual rights view of the Second Amendment, and that he “respects the constitutional rights of Americans to bear arms.†[.pdf available at link] But as a Joyce director, Obama was involved in a wealthy foundation’s attempt to manipulate the Supreme Court, buy legal scholarship, and obliterate the individual right to arms.
Voters who value the Constitution should ask whether someone who was party to that plan should be nominating future Supreme Court justices.
[my emphases]
All of which points to one simple fact: It is easy to promote a Living Constitution when you are convinced that it is you who controls both the oxygen and the blood supply. And as postmodern pragmatism gains purchase among the academic class (moreso out of its usefulness than out of any profound discovery offered in its description of the world), the justifications and rationalizations for “guiding” policy toward its “appropriate” legislative end is a natural as breathing to those who believe whole-heartedly in their own intellectual entitlement as social engineers.
Obama has show himself again and again to be a man willing to use the press and his followers to “win” debates by anything other than the strength of his ideas in a free marketplace of ideology.
For that reason alone, we should fear his Presidency.
Of course, as a self-styled “progressive,” Obama can really act no other way; for someone who believes he is manipulating history, Obama’s failure to see how his progressive ideology determines his every move is quite sadly ironic.
Baracky didn’t care if he destroyed the institution of the law review because he was trying to circumscribe the freedoms people have more better. It’s interesting that Chicago-Kent can be bought like a cheap whore though. Baracky is a big-time pimp, sure, but something about Chicago made it easy.
I see the fainting and gnashing of teeth is continuing apace over here. It’s a scary world, kiddos. Even Jeff’s rhetorical contortions can’t undo the complete and fucking total disaster that is the McCain campaign. But then, we always knew he was just about hating Democrats and any ideology that fits this end works for him. America has woken up with the worst financial hangover of several generations thanks to the little shits like Jeff who justified every excess and foolish mistake in the name of hating liberals. Good morning, America!
“But then, we always knew he was just about hating Democrats and any ideology that fits this end works for him.”
Who is this “we” you speak of?
What bothered me most about Obama early on was that he talked about America as if it were a woman who, with instruction, might measure up to being his mate.
From my dead, cold hands! to quote a famous man.
It’s the royal we. The editorial.
What Baracky Chavez wants is not a more free society. He’s so terribly angry at rich white people cause his mom was white and she didn’t want him around. Baracky thinks he needs his own little Venezuela where he can make the Social Justice when what he really needs is hugs. A very confused little militant, a lot cause of the marxism, yes, but also cause he’s psychologically damaged.
Damaged people love Baracky to pieces I’ve noticed.
Astonishing ignorance from an astonishing ignorant little fuck.
Hoot! Hoot! Hoot!
The solution to the said financial hangover shall be increasing taxes and putting Democrat social engineers in charge of the morgage industry. Hip hip hoorayyyyyy!!!11!!!!
Hey kelly – Fuck you. You are currently reaping what has been sown, as they say. Enjoy it.
This doesn’t even even resemble a caricature of me.
Now. Anything to say about the post? If not, you’re excused.
the solution sure as hell isn’t Phil fucking Graham. If you don’t understand that, then you deserve all the misery you are currently experiencing.
your post if more pure unadulterated nonsense. It’s pretty, though. How’s that?
Oh. Looks like the Obama/Ayers relationship goes back at least 21 years.
Comment by hoot on 10/6 @ 12:03 pm #
Hey kelly – Fuck you.
YouWe are currently reaping what has been sown, as they say. Enjoy it.hoot, you forgot the editorial “we”?
It’s the royal we. The editorial.
Two entirely different nosisms, moron.
In your case I suspect it’s actually the DID we.
Gotta say, this TrollHammer thingy is way kewl. Thanks, SBP!
Not particularly illuminating. Assumes facts not in evidence. Very general.
Where is the nonsense? What do you make of Hardy’s research and argument. On what basis do you object to what’s been written, either by Hardy or me. What are your counter arguments?
Or are you simply waiting for the talking points to arrive before you dare offer something concrete?
“the solution sure as hell isn’t Phil fucking Graham. If you don’t understand that, then you deserve all the misery you are currently experiencing.”
I am not currently experiencing any misery. I did not get a morgage I could not pay for. Hell I am doing very good right now considering I am about to buy a foreclosure at over 100 grand less than what it sold for 2 years ago. Oh yeah and I see your Phil Gram and raise you one Barney Frank. Seems to me 2 years ago foot tapping in an airport restroom was a capitol offense, but now you can have gay sex with executives from Fannie Mae during a financial crisis you helped cause and nothing is wrong.
“Dig it! First they killed those pigs and then they put a fork in their bellies. Wild!â€Â
Jeezy Peezy. That sounds like classic thor.
Don’t be afraid to exhibit your brilliance, hoot. Saving us can be your good deed for the day. Or your second, if you recycled.
Off to take my son to school. Back soon.
Damaged people love Baracky to pieces IÂ’ve noticed.
Yes. Mommy issues, daddy issues, poorly-assimilated immigrant issues, racial identity issues, and Ivy League liberal guilt, all rolled into one convenient package for your self-immolation needs.
Quick hoot, now’s your chance!
It’s classical Alinsky at it’s core. Demonize the heck out of your opponents, distort their words and lie your ass off.
Your post is full of random “scare quotes” and outright crazy “thoughts” on fascism that don’t connect with reality. How’s that 2nd amendment repeal going, there, bucko?
So, “hoot”, you’re conceeding the point that Obama has been involved with long-running attempts to evicerate one of the Bill of Rights, is that correct?
So, “hoot”, do you have anything to bring to the table other a critique of Jeff’s punctuation?
Something specific, perhaps?
All I know is, I’m stocking the larder with as much 5.56mm as my budget will allow between now and January 20. And waterproof containers. If The One gets to appoint 3 replacement Supremes, it ain’t gonna be pretty for us 2d Amendment folk.
o/t, but breaking: McCain goes nuclear on Obama, Fannie, and Freddie.
Get your face a little closer to Barney Frank’s balls, hoot. You clearly don’t have a fucking clue about how this mess got started.
From SBP’s link
That “pushed on people” is populist crap to the bottom of it’s soul. File in the “why I don’t like McCain” folder.
Because of Obama I aspire to be the next docile and mewling victim of predatory lenders.
The American Hunters and Shooters Association, an astroturf PR effort funded by the Joyce Foundation as a faux alternative to the NRA, has been running saturation radio ads in SW Virginia trying to convince gun owners that Obama is no threat. Of course, they give no specifics on Obama’s views on the Second Amendment and rapidly devolve into a diatribe on economic policy. Yet somehow this is supposed to an independent ad, not coordinated with the Obama campaign.
Sorry for my skepticism, but did McCain really give that speech?
but now you can have gay sex with executives from Fannie Mae during a financial crisis you helped cause and nothing is wrong.
I believe Barney used to say, “Hey guys, I gotta go. I’m late for a Fannie meeting.”
I just got an email telling me that I can buy a bundle of mortgages backed by Fannie Flagg.
Good investment?
Just wait for tomorrow’s installment of “Fisking Alinsky” over at the pub. I’ll be parsing Alinsky’s Of Means and Ends chapter. (Latest installment here.)
Bring a 10-gallon puke bucket. You’re gonna need it.
America has woken up with the worst financial hangover of several generations thanks to…
…<a href=”http://dicentrasgarden.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-thing-like-this-happen.html”utterly misplaced “compassion.” The economic geniuses of the left figured that the means tests that those selfish bastards at the bank insisted on before giving loans were actually an excuse to keep the Have-Nots in their place.
So in their infinite, psychokinetic atom-splitting wisdom, they used the levers of government power and “grassroots” agitation to force the banks to make bad loans, BECAUSE OF THE COMPASSION, then forced F&F to buy the loans, thus “removing” the risk from the primary lenders.
Connect the dots, hoot. The “greedy Wall Street bastards” were the last link in a chain that was forged by morons who still think that wealth is zero-sum.
SBP after reading your link I am beginning to believe he is not a complete moron. Thank you.
Hey kelly – Fuck you. You are currently reaping what has been sown, as they say. Enjoy it.
Is Kelly FDR or LBJ?
One click and the useless hoot goes down the memory hole. Thanks, TrollHammer™!
Sdferr, from a little farther down SBP’s link (in case seeing red at the part you quoted):
Don’t sell the old man quite so short….
Fannie Flagg
Sure, she was kinda hot back in the day.
The certificates will be much more attractive than the ones with Barney Frank’s mug on them.
SBP after reading your link I am beginning to believe he is not a complete moron.
I’ve been hoping that all of the people who suggested he was waiting and keeping his powder dry were right. Looks like they were.
There’s a time tradeoff here, for sure. You don’t want your points to become “old news” before the election.
The only thing missing is McCain loudly calling for a congressional investigation.
What is “This corruption” Challeron? Does it have the privilege to included the “corruption” of the borrowers? Or are they to be entirely relieved of responsibility for their acts of stupidity?
To continue with your market metaphor, I’m not selling anyone short, thanks. I’ll take them as I find them, and if I find them to behave as populists, I’ll call them populists.
The only thing missing is McCain loudly calling for a congressional investigation.
AMEN!!
Don’t any of these reporters have mortgages? Wouldn’t they like to ask Pelosi if she’s planning on getting to the bottom of this mess that’s making their homes worthless? You should not be allowed to report on the housing scam if you do not own a house.
“Comment by hoot on 10/6 @ 11:51 am #
It’s the royal we. The editorial.”
Naw, it was your multiple personalities breaking through.
Just cause you keep loudly repeating one American political party that is not even a congressional majority ruined the entire world economy does not make it true. Go ahead and keep repeating it though I am sure someone on here will be amazed by your brilliance.
Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Jim Johnson, Jamie Gorelick and Franklin Raines are members of the Republican National Committee? Gee, ya learns somethin’ new ev’ry day…
Or is Cleo just blockhead stupid?
Mr. Pink, of course it does. Semen is deranged. Absolutely sure of it. Now semen is the time to tell us HOW the GOP wrecked America.
1) There was nothing random about those scare quotes. 2) you claim I employ “outright crazy ‘thoughts’ on fascism that don’t connect with reality.” This an assertion, and a possible starting point for a legitimate attempt at critique. Care to follow up?
Here, I’ll help. What are the thoughts on offer you find “outright crazy”? Why do you find them so. How do they fail to “connect with reality”? (That last, of course, will require you to lay out the conditions for reality as you see them).
Finally, you write:
I admit to being baffled by this. Are you suggesting that the failure of the attempt renders the attempt itself nothing to worry about, regardless of the means used?
I’d ask you to expound a bit on that point, because I find it curious on a number of levels.
Off to work out. Back in a bit.
Spiny Norman: “Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Jim Johnson, Jamie Gorelick and Franklin Raines are members of the Republican National Committee? Gee, ya learns somethin’ new ev’ry day…
Or is Cleo just blockhead stupid?”
The latter.
Semanticleo: “That dog ain’t huntin’ too well, air it?”
That dog hasn’t even been let off of its leash.
Dodd and Frank prevented regulatory changes that would have uncovered this mess years ago. The other three mushrooms walked away with tens of millions of dollars, in some cases based on fraud, condoned and protected by the Dems in Congress.
“How’s that 2nd amendment repeal going, there, bucko?”
They will not go that route bucko. They will nominate judges who will do it for them and claim they had nothing to do with it. You know that living Constitution thingy that seems to stand for the exact opposite meaning for which it was written.
The 2nd Amendment? Crikey, Earth’s rotation winding down to a stop and you’re worried about an amendment to the Constitution?
Is there some reason we should scuttle the Constitution because the stock market is taking a dive?
Whether or not it hunts doesn’t negate the fact that it eats, sleeps, shits, and licks itself.
Cleo is excited that so far the stink of their own negligence and graft hasn’t stuck to Democrats — even while exalting over worldwide financial problems ushered in by these folks.
It’s like a game: can they get away with it? Because if so, we will finally have defeated the Enlightenment. JOY!
You know that living Constitution thingy that seems to stand for the exact opposite meaning for which it was written.
“Dyin’ ain’t much of a livin'” – Josie Wales
So the burden is not to prove that they were culpable of some of the blame for the economic crisis, but if this information can make it past MSM filters and into the general public?
Well at least your being honest.
Or James Earl Carter or William Jefferson Clinton?
Semanticleo: “No, there’s nothing wrong with having a cigarette while yer house burns down, either. It might give you some comfort, but it does nothing to save yer house.”
non sequiter much there, cleo?
Our Semanticleopatria would appear to be hip deep in de Nile, both as to the provenance of the economic discomfit and importance of the Constitution.
But, then, to our local would-be commissar, I guess the Constitution is just a minor impediment to a good neo-Stalinist state that Obama’s buddy Ayers would approve of.
Seman, wasn’t it you the other day commenting about the subject of a post?
Maybe you should think about getting your own blog.
No, there’s nothing wrong with having a cigarette while yer house burns down, either. It might give you some comfort, but it does nothing to save yer house.
I’ve done everything I can about the mess on Wall Street…I bugged out of stocks into tax-free bonds a while ago, I have a nice cushion of savings and virtually no debt outside of my mortgage (which I can pay off if called). IOW, I’m solvent.
So now I’ll make sure dirtbags like Obama aren’t sneaking into my house to snatch the silver while the neighor’s burns.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I worry about the 2nd amendment every day.
“Gubmint isn’t the solution to the problem, it IS the problem†RWR
Given the genesis of our predicament today, truer than ever.
Don’t you have Barney Frank’s dick to suck, cleo?
Jeff, I’m sure you are just tingling with anticipation over my responses to your oh-so-level requests. Keep tingling, I don’t play games.
Whistling past the graveyard, pissing in the wind, smoking a cigarette while your house burns down, whatever you want to call it. That’s what’s going on here. And I encourage you and your lackeys to push this “democrats caused the collapse of our financial system” meme. It’s a real fucking winner, there.
hoot: “I’m sure you are just tingling with anticipation over my responses to your oh-so-level requests. Keep tingling, I don’t play games.”
Ah, a drive-by trolling… all invective, no substance.
hoot: “And I encourage you and your lackeys to push this “democrats caused the collapse of our financial system†meme.”
Which party used Frannie Mae and Freddie Mac as a political piggy-bank, staffing them with lackeys and sycophants? Which candidate currently has several FM alumnae, including Franklin “Fast Frankie” Raines, who copped to accounting fraud during his time minding the store?
I don’t play games.
Translation: you have no response.
Aw…hoot said it ain’t gonna work. Darn. I always trust hoot’s judgment on everything, too.
A question for Barack Obama supporters:
Baracky stacking the Court such that it would overturn the recent decision holding that the Second Amendment says exactly what it says = okey dokey, because that’s change we can believe in, and stare decisis be damned.
[Insert bloodthirsty warmongering Republican presidential caricature of your choice here] appointing justices who do not agree with the purported constitutional foundations of Roe v. Wade — who indeed, think those foundations amount to nothing more than what is colloquially known as “hooey” — and might be inclined to have another looksee at the “Constitutional right to abortion” issue = wildly heinous attack on super-dooper-double-looper precedent and equivalent of jurisprudential high treason.
Because stare decisis is the most important thing in the world.
Except when it isn’t.
All you NRA members go on over to the NRA web site and advise them to endorse McCain-Palin. Suggest to them that you will not renew your membership unless they come out with a full endorsement.
Oh yes, the question — do I have that right?
I’d rather be Jeff’s lackey than Pelosi’s personal slitlicker like you, hoot. She’s probably smarter, too, and she ain’t too bright.
I’m still wondering who “Phil fucking Graham” is.
He’s a whiner.
I think I accidentally rented that one once, Slart, due to someone having switched cases on the DVDs.
The store was cool about it, though — gave me five free rentals.
You rent DVDs? Pahahaha.
All you NRA members go on over to the NRA web site and advise them to endorse McCain-Palin.
Not really sure that will be necessary, NRA members being a fair bit smarter than your typical Obamist and able draw intelligent conclusions based on available information.
http://www.gunbanobama.com/
But thanks for playing.
http://www.nraila.org/
But…But…But…One of my aides wrote the answers to that questionaire…
I couldn’t take your guns if I wanted to, I don’t have the votes!!11!!eleventy!1!!1!
Every goddamn day I have my hand on the Bible and my finger on the trigger! Obama, that you? Bam! Bam! Bam!
Martha, you alright? Oh shit.
Haha. ha. har de har.
Yes, I worry about the 2nd A. Enough to learn about stuff. Not things, though. ;^D
This Phil Graham? He’s dead.
Maybe it was that joint project between Graham Gouldman and Phil Lynott that never got off the ground.
I don’t play games.
You should try tic tac toe. I can give you some pointers if you need help.
That’s it?
So, your answer is that you have no response to either Hardy’s arguments or mine. Or rather, that if you really wanted to you could respond in a devastating way, but why bother? Your time is too valuable. So you’ll spend it here writing posts that are unresponsive.
Gotcha.
You’re an anklebiter.
Huh, so that’s two examples of Executive experience that Senator Obama has had but is strangely reticent to discuss or even mention. Funny how that is. You’d think he would respond to claims of inexperience with these, but he keeps them under wraps, almost as if he doesn’t want his actual behavior while an executive on display.
Baracky has gained valuable executive experience running his campaign though, so his executive experience a lot involves making the executive decision to suppress previous exemplars of said executive experience I think.
[…] RADICALIST.. “Obama and the Attempt to Destroy the Second Amendment†…. […]
Well executed.
How fast did it take to completely hijack this thread? Second comment? Hey hoot, you juvenile little fuckwad, why don’t you address one single point raised in the post? My god you are such are tiresome fucking tool.
Iam an Aussie who enjoys an equally liberal and dare I say more stable society than your citizens do. We have a universal health system and enjoy a moderately strict gun control policy that precludes the use of the automatic rifles and high lethality weapons many states inthe US allow. Most of our gun owners are farmers, ranchers and members of sporting gun clubs. There are strict rules as to the storage, sale and promotion of gun culture. We had our Wild West too, and if you like to read its history, you might find our bushrangers made Jesse James look like a wimp.Needless to say our gun-related death and injury rate is a minute fraction of your (per head of pop.).
get over your archaic view of the world and greet the realities of 2008.I’m sure the great men who created your constitution would be aghast to see the vile consequences in street carnage of young and old alike resulting from the proliferation of guns. We in australia are conservative too about departing from our constitution but have had on more than one occassion voted to modify it in the case of common sense and the welfare of all.We strongly disagree with your views but would defend (not necessarily to the death and certainly not by gun trauma)your right to publish them in an open forum of ideas.
regards Beatnik2casbah
Maybe that works that way in Australia, Peter–I may have to look more deeply into that.
Because here, when gun laws are relaxed, crime decreases.
We in australia are conservative too about departing from our constitution but have had on more than one occassion voted to modify it in the case of common sense and the welfare of all.We strongly disagree with your views but would defend (not necessarily to the death and certainly not by gun trauma)your right to publish them in an open forum of ideas.
Ah, see there Peter. We Americans will and have defended our Constitutional Rights to the death.
That’s why you get to read open forums of ideas.
Rather than, say, that depressing Goebbels type stuff.
I never had a really high opinion of Chicago-Kent (which is saying something, when I went to a fairly non-noteworthy law school m’self) – but whoring out their Law Review in this fashion should basically remove it from use by serious scholars or judges – barring some visible reforms.
I guess the “Constitutional Scholar” wasn’t quite so sure of the merits of his position. Had to pack a lower tier school Law Review with friendly views.
This kind of angers me the more I think of it. A society that relies on the rule of law can’t really function well when you have someone doing things like what was described in this post.
get over your archaic view of the world and greet the realities of 2008.I’m sure the great men who created your constitution would be aghast to see the vile consequences in street carnage of young and old alike resulting from the proliferation of guns.
That’s nice. So Peter, how much does your government allow you to earn?
If it weren’t for the war on drugs, we’d have a lower gun death rate than you have without gun control. And most of our gun owners are farmers, ranchers, hunters, and gun club members too. What’s your point?
yours/
peter.
get over your archaic view of the world and greet the realities of 2008.I’m sure the great men who created your constitution would be aghast to see the vile consequences in street carnage of young and old alike resulting from the proliferation of guns.
No, I think I’ll cling, bitterly, to my archaic view of the world, and try and maintain the constitution in the way the great men who created it would approve. And the best way to do that in the next month is to keep the weirdo out of office. But, you do what you like for the betterment of Australia, Peter.
#98
Well. You’re all descendants of criminals, after all. So put another shrimp on the barbie, mate! G’day!
Isn’t Chicago-Kent where Dr. Nick Riviera went to Med School?
[…] 2008, 6:16 UhrSerr8d I discovered this distasteful animal while reading Jeff G’s post “Obama and the Attempt to Destroy the Second Amendment”, in a comment by ThomasD. Straight away to the site, where to my horror, there was Obama staring […]
[…] was on the board of the Joyce Foundation for 8 years, which was engaged in some rather interesting […]
[…] discovered this distasteful animal while reading Jeff G’s post “Obama and the Attempt to Destroy the Second Amendment”, in a comment by ThomasD. Straight away to the site, where to my horror, there was Obama staring […]
Baracky has gained valuable executive experience running his campaign though, so his executive experience a lot involves making the executive decision to suppress previous exemplars of said executive experience I think.
Well said, happyfeet.
“We in australia are conservative too about departing from our constitution but have had on more than one occassion voted to modify it in the case of common sense”
The problem is here in America people of your political persuasion do not vote on modifying the constitution they nominate judges that are unelected by the people to do it for them.
Just been doing a little rooting around the vexed and highly politicized topic of firearms violence, checking on our Aussie mucker’s assertions. From the most recent ICVS survey data available it would appear that Australia is roughly equal to the US in terms of victimization rate for crimes, although the homicide by firearms rate is roughly 10x the Australian rate per 100,000 people. Indeed, Sydney would appear to be as violence/crime prone as New York, in spite of Peter’s assertion that his is a much more stable society. Ranking the 2000 statistics from the Wiki entry (I know, I know) on firearms homicides/100,000 puts the US in 11th place, behind such hotbeds as Barbados and Costa Rica. “the vile consequences in street carnage of young and old alike resulting from the proliferation of guns” indeed.
I don’t know if Peter is aware of it, but handguns were banned completely in the UK in 1997. And yet, mysteriously, there were 78 homicides involving firearms in England and Wales in 2004/05, up from 68 in 2003/04 (the most recent data available from the Home Office). How is this possible – all handguns were banned. Indeed, the victim of crime survey cited above shows London to be the most dangerous city in Europe, and third only to Phnom Penh and Maputo around the world. I thought the UK was a stable, liberal society? And, without all them pesky firearms? Could it be our friend has neglected to include other, cultural factors in his analysis?
Additionally, Peter, if you are still out there, we also have the means to change our constitution (the clue is in the title of the post). Democratically too.
So have we; unfortunately, some of those experiments have had really bad results. The 16th, 17th, and 18th Amendments come to mind. We’ve only fixed #18. #16 turned into a fucking disaster of the 1st order and #17 moved us even further from being a Republic.
You guys can run your country the way you see fit; I hope it works out for you.
“Keep tingling, I don’t play games”
Translation: “I am a fucking moron who couldn’t possibly begin to put forth a coherent reply. I eat my boogers, too!”
Great, I read the article Jeff cites and see that O! bought an OSU Law Review issue and set up buying a Stanford one too. So the guy who takes a fireax to one of the pillars of our legal system wants to be in position to nominate SCOTUS justices? Thanks, no.
And nobody knows because the press has completely insultated this guy and propped him up so that we can shake things up culturally by having a black man in office.
It’s like the staffers at the LA Times, WaPo, NYT, and the AP think there might be Cristal and hos at Obama state dinners, and that they may be eligible for a few bumps and a hummer from somebody vaguely resembling Rosie Perez…
Take out 2nd Amendment, then start work on the 1st.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77268
Pass the ammo.
OK For the Kiwi, although I doubt he’ll be back:
The founding fathers were not strangers to violence and guns. In fact, I suspect they faced far more than you or I ever did, having fought a war, fought Indians, fought duels, and hunted for food. The life of the 16th century was not rainbows and unicorns and nerf bats. It was brutal, bloody, rough, and nasty. They knew about guns and violence. They knew about death and pain and injury far more than we do.
The purpose of the 2nd amendment is unmistakably and plainly laid out by the one who wrote it in no uncertain terms: to defend the nation, to provide for the basic right of self defense, and to make the government nervous. That last on in particular is of note, and was probably the main reason. A disarmed populace is a helpless populace to tyranny. A well-armed populace is a threat to tyranny.
Silver, you might want to peek at what has happened in England since they banned guns.
To all the critics of my argument, come out here (to Oz), get to dig some of the crim progeny that survived a very tough land, have a budget in surplus, and as to our reluctance to fight for the values of the free world examine the record. We have stood toe to toe with you insular lot since WW1 in many difficult spots – eg. Vietnam, Korea,Iraq, Afghanistan – not to forget WW2. And by the way we had to translate our culture to you because we know your exposure to language and ideas have deteriorated during the electronic age.We call shrimp Prawns not shrimp. Our prawns are more like lobsters than shrimp – they’re large, baby. I do think your brains have been re-wired by too much time spent gaming, blogging and “obesting” in front of the TV shoving processed snack foods into your collective maws.
This is what in our country is called a “spray” or ad hominem critique. And it does not do justice to my attempt to enter into civil international dialogue with ‘youse’ guys. My advice is to teach your security people Arabic( a bit late) and chinese, and to turn your eyes outward and learn from the world marketplace of ideas.PS the wiki stats are distorted and bear no resemblance to our national realities. Look to thine own backyard (in this case) and analyse the causes of the mayhem which is happening to a society I once respected, admired and, yes, even loved. Learn to sing our national song, Waltzing
Matilda, about a sheep stealer who jumps into a billabong (water hole) when confronted by the troopers who pursued him. Then you might appreciate our ironic view of the world. Ooroo American mates
FYI, pete: the national anthem of Australia is Advance Australia Fair. Some have asked for it to be changed to I Still Call Australia Home; I’m pretty bloody sure it’s never going to be Waltzing bloody Matilda, though.
Also, South Australia (where I was for eons) is a non-penal colony, settled by free people and Germans. Okay, the Germans were probably free too.
Also, before the ‘incident’ in Tasmania where a deranged individual started shooting up people randomly, gun laws were about as lax as they are in the USA. Following that, ahem, event in Tassie, regretfully the Howard government brought in some seriously insane gun control laws. Johhnie boy, you’re a moron, sir.
Incidentally, apparently these laws are not working out as well as they should have; Time magazine apparently cites a Sydney study on this.
I’ve heard of Moreton Bay Bugs, but I’ll be damned if I’ve ever seen a prawn the size of a bloody lobster.
And, btw, who was in power until Nov 2007 to give us a budget surplus, huh?
And under whose leadership are TWO ministers of environment needed simply because one of them is Peter Garrett, the unhinged deranged nutso environut previously of Midnight Oil? And the other a (formerly Malaysian) naturalised citizen.
Silver, you might want to peek at what has happened in England since they banned guns.
Christopher,
That was exactly my point – maybe the irony was lost.
Answering your superficial (apparently)objections to my homily on gun-ownership etc. Did it ever strike you as odd that many gun laws in the rest of the world are being eroded by diversion of so-called legitimate weaponry from sources in the US; how does Africa sustain armies and militias fighting in multiple states without the gun trade which puts lethal weapons in the hands of children? How do you think this will play out with the pressures of lack of water,degradation of the soil and , dare i say, global warming? Is it in your interests to arm up people who have SFA to lose? England too despite domestic gun laws has a problem in illicit gun imports from both your glutted markets and those of the Russian and eastern European novo fascist crime syndicates.
I am a libertarian in an increasingly controlled world. However I do believe that we elect Governments to protect the mass of the population when unhinged pursuit of power and short-term thinking, greed and corruption skew the financial systems in the narrow interests of a small minority of individuals with the morals of psychopaths in suits.I don’t think only Texans can exaggerate size; our king prawns reach monstrous proportions and taste yummy.I also believe your Adelaide visit was not for “eons’. tho’ Chris we do agree on one thing – Little Johnny Howard was a waste of space, dagging (an allusion to the sticky bits on a sheep’s bum) the inept George Bush throughout his most horrendous blunders. PS NSW thrives on the daring of its convict ancestory;they played a great part in the settlement, exploration and innovation/development of our young nation.And besides most of those who settled in, gave no trouble, were promptly released and given landgrants to further their economic independence. You should consider doing as much for your huge prison population in the US who are serving time for victimless crimes like self admin of drugs and costing the government heaps in storing and brutalising them.Also maybe educate them. More tomorrow I like this site. i originally wanted to talk politics with Obama supporters but it is more stimulating talking to those who profoundly and instinctively disagree with my views. Take it easy greasy, you got a long way to slide, Mindlesley. (Peter’s ex-wife). It has been me all along talking in his name as my computer crashed and I’ve had to appropriate his computer settings.
peter cumerford: “Did it ever strike you as odd that many gun laws in the rest of the world are being eroded by diversion of so-called legitimate weaponry from sources in the US; how does Africa sustain armies and militias fighting in multiple states without the gun trade which puts lethal weapons in the hands of children?”
Actually, peter, the weapon derigeur for conflicts in Africa is the Kalishnikov, in its many variants. They’re not exactly a common item here in the states.
petercumerford: “I am a libertarian in an increasingly controlled world. However I do believe that we elect Governments to protect the mass of the population when unhinged pursuit of power and short-term thinking, greed and corruption skew the financial systems in the narrow interests of a small minority of individuals with the morals of psychopaths in suits.”
IOW, you’re not a libertarian.
petercumerford: “And besides most of those who settled in, gave no trouble, were promptly released and given landgrants to further their economic independence. You should consider doing as much for your huge prison population in the US who are serving time for victimless crimes like self admin of drugs and costing the government heaps in storing and brutalising them.Also maybe educate them.”
They had their option at education. They chose not to take advantage. They have already had one bite at the apple on my nickel, why should I pony up for a second one?
Now, frankly, I do think that the criminal justice system should be more flexible and dust-off a few more options for minor crimes. The main problem is that we’ve excised the element of shame for criminals — in some quarters, doing time is seen as almost a rite of passage. You can fix ignorance, but not willful stupidity.
petercumerford: “More tomorrow I like this site. i originally wanted to talk politics with Obama supporters but it is more stimulating talking to those who profoundly and instinctively disagree with my views.”
you mean your state-controlled variation of libertarianism?
Peter/Mindlesley,
I’m sorry you found my response to your post superficial, and that you felt the responses were ad hominem. It tells me that your reading skills are lacking, and that you have no idea what ad hominem means. If you choose to revisit my post above and follow the links (those bits of text in orange), brush up a bit on the statistics, and then frame a counter argument, I think we might just get somewhere.
And Dread Cthulhu has it pretty spot on – it’s a funny flavor of libertarian that looks to government for solutions. The rest of your post is merely assertion, ie. “diversion of so-called legitimate weaponry from sources in the US; how does Africa sustain armies and militias fighting in multiple states without the gun trade which puts lethal weapons in the hands of children?” A source for this would be nice, but you won’t find one, because it isn’t true. As is this gem: “England too despite domestic gun laws has a problem in illicit gun imports from both your glutted markets and those of the Russian and eastern European novo fascist crime syndicates.” If you have the slightest evidence that the massive amount of illegal weaponry in the UK is from glutted American markets, it would be nice to see some. But please, it’s been nice, and thanks for educating us.
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I beg to differ. The libertarian comes in all shapes and sizes. From pure anarchism to more moderate forms which realise that liberty must for justice sake be tempered by collective responsibility when excess and dangerous conduct endanger the individual and collective good. Witness your meltdown on Wall St. And the influence on the unfettered global markets. We in Australia have definitely as a globally trading (freer than you, check it out) nation with a freely floating dollar, have weathered the current crisis without losiong any major financial institutions. Testosterone fueled, and from our point of view, arrogant financial institutions and individuals have been on a spree
that qualifies as reckless, junk bonds etc.. As well as swollen coommercial belllies stuffed with bad debt that was only written because there were no rules there to temper the sheer greed of those that encouraged it.ythe way, my reference to ad hominem argument or a “spray” as we say here,was not a reflection on you guys but an apparently failed attempt to criticise part of my earlier argument.Ie. I hoped to get in before any of you clobbered me.talk about reading skills!Dont you believe in the rule of law. Isnt this a form of regulation or are you guys all anarchists?
by the way (again)my partner has often felt like blowing someone’s brains out but because of our strict laws has cooled down before he could pick up a gun. I was not the intended target!Also most of our small-time crooks are not armed, tho this may be evolving with the influence of the export of violence-accepting American gaming and movieTV culture plus illicit world trade in arms. Are you really saying there is no trade in American sourced weapons in Africa, please! You may find if you read widely that your government has supplied weapons to some novel political entities such as the Taliban and militias that take their fancy any where there are commodities that it is in your national interest to “protect’… at the expense of women,childred, the old and the young. Where is your empathy! Where is your belief in Christ’s new testament values – Blessed are the poor… do good to those that hate you … turn the other cheek. Mindlesley for Peter.
So, you’re:
a) a “libertarian”
who:
b) believes in every bit of pernicious statist nonsense that’s ever been proposed
and:
c) lives with a guy who only refrains from committing murder because he doesn’t have a gun handy.
Yeah, we believe you, Peter.
Really.
Are you really saying there is no trade in American sourced weapons in Africa
Most of the murdering in Africa is done with the AK-47. Look it up.
Please, SBP, I saw Lord of War
Uninformed drivel,SBP.Talk about stating unsupported arguments. I’ve been cricised for making unsupported assertions because I’ve enough knowledge of the difficulty of conducting well-designed, large number enrolled trials to study multi factor social/crime studies (for all the reasons cited in the Icvs survey pointed out to me on 10/7)that I am +++ sceptical of many of their conclusions.. I have compared the figures and have come to rather different conclusions as to our two countries’ relative lawlessness/gun homicides. Silverwhistle concedes there is a majorly large comparative no. of gun slayings in the US compared to those in Oz.
The multiple ethnicities (alone)in the US would not explain this finding as we have many refugees, immigrants from 100+ nations of many “racial” groups that might be expected to cause friction. Sometimes this does happen but not frequently unless politicians and rabble rousers inflame trouble for their own political ends.We did have one riot in Cronulla stimulated by a race hatred group using cell phones to stir things up which attracted lots of press both here and overseas;this was basically between surfers who felt that the Islamic boys were not respecting the local women. The Muslim boys and men considered that they were being dissed and discriminated against due to the inability of the white surfies to tolerate their presence on the beach. This outbreak of destructive behavior,tho no-one died, shocked the Aussie population and lots of remedies were embarked upon to reconcile the two groups including a program of training Muslims to join local surf lifesaving clubs and train as surf lifesavers. So I’m not saying we’re perfect or without serious issues. But I feel America has gone its own way without reference to the experience of its friends. And believe me babies – I should be able to call you that as I am probably twice most of you bloggers ages, I’m 62 – with the meltdown of your financial system and the fiscal fix you’ve got yourself into, you need all the friendly help you can get.Those who are not your friends will suck up and not tell you the truth. I am sure that many of them are planning now to kick you hard while you’re down.
On a lighter note, Christopher Taylor called me a Kiwi, this is a very great insult in Oz as they are our greatest sporting rivals, apart from the Pommies and live across the Tasman Sea off our east coast about a 4 hour plane ride away. you could i s’pose call me a Koala tho they are high on eucalyptus leaves and are drowsy most days. Like Gen. MacArthur I keep coming back despite your initial doubts. I think I would rather be re-incarnated as an Aussie bird, maybe an emu, brolga or jabiru, all of which are totems and spirit protectors of our indigenous peoples of the outback desert country and Top End, the very tropical unspoiled wilderness in the far north of our nation. So much for this potted geography lesson; it has never appeared to be a strong point of the American education system, tho I suppose you’ve got a lot on your plate with such a plethora of states. Mindlesley for peter, the infamous u-tube, dare I say it, Beatnikcasbah.
oops! I seemed to terminate the discussion. Tho’ youall might be too busy managing your investment portfolios to bother. Or my rather prolix and discurvive replies may be challenging your truncated attention spans. Go on fondle your guns boys. Feeling a trifle insecure about where the USA is heading? Is it me,you, it or even them?Lotsa luck, kiddos, love Mindlesley for Peter, alias Beatnikcass.
no, it’s that the post is four days old. geeze, move on.
I’ve moved on, Maggie, thanx for the esplanation.
On the topic of explanation, I would like to respond to Greg on Waltzing Matilda which is,as I stated, our national SONG not our anthem which is Advance Australia Fair as you so kindly pointed out. I’m movin’ on folks. See you elsewhere, Mindlesley for Peter (beatnikcass)
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