Stanley Kurtz echoes some of the sentiments I’ve expressed the last few days, and rehearses certain arguments I’ve spent years here making:
[…] don’t think American libel law, so much less plaintiff-friendly than British libel law, gives us a free pass. At the counterterrorism blog, Jeffrey Breinholt explains how even American libel laws can be used to intimidate and silence speech. As I point out in “Not Without a Fight,” what really protects free speech here in the United States is the value we place upon it, and the shame we would feel handling criticism by way of law suits. When it comes to silencing critics, on the other hand, the Obama campaign appears to have no shame. That augers poorly for the culture of free exchange. As Tocqueville reminds us, habits of the heart, even more than the law itself, stand as our most important protections against tyranny. If Obama continues to break one free-speech taboo after another, the law will surely follow.
[my emphases]
One of the joys of both a Living Constitution and a culture whose communicative paradigm has internalized the linguistically incoherent receiver-centric model of tying interpretation to meaning (all while circumventing authorial intent when that intent frustrates “additional” meaning derived by resignification), is that — by taking away that original locus of meaning — all that remains is whatever “convention” for interpretation that happens to hold sway.
And when that convention is one that any rewriting of an original text (by way of resignification on the receiving end) becomes part of that text’s meaning, meaning itself becomes relative, constrained only by the ability and cleverness of interpreters.
At which point, the law can be shaped to match a predetermined end — signified in new ways that, eg., “tolerance” and “diversity” have been, so that they begin to “mean” their precise opposites — and still appear to track with the marks that make up the original text.
And so long as meaning is allowed to be determined by the stronger will (or the greater numbers, when put to vote) of a particular interpretive community, there is, theoretically-speaking, nothing whatever other than shame or habit or conscience to stop the movement of “free speech” toward “speech that the government has decreed is allowed.”
Obama’s tactics, as Kurtz points out, shows that he is aware, at least on a conventional level, of our current post-structural interpretive paradigm, and so he is not afraid to pressure its boundaries, feeling that he and his followers are in a position to impose their will. And he can do this because he currently has as his base the kinds of people to whom the will to power is “pragmatism,” and to whom fixed meaning is a relic of Enlightenment epistemology and modernist thinking, and so therefore can be comfortably consigned to the dustbin of history — with the approval of the intellectual class that runs the current academy, complete with free-speech zones and a multiculturalist mindset that is anathema to the idea of universals.
In this sense, the linguistic turn — along with those who’ve worked to insinuate its teachings into our very epistemic interpretive substructure — is moving toward its ultimate victory: turning descriptive postmodern philosophy into a prescriptive postmodern paradigm, one that deconstructs the very notion of meaning, turning every battle into one of will, with “meaning” becoming nothing more than that narrative which is imposed upon us by the plurality.
This is akin to tyranny of the majority — akin to “democratizing” something (namely, meaning as fixed by intent, and a recognition of whose intent one is privileging) that should, by its very nature, be assumed fixed and intractable for purposes of interpretation.
Concludes Kurtz:
So continued media silence on Obama’s intimidation tactics threatens not only the fairness of this election, but press freedom itself. Yet to defend the freedom of the right as if it were their own is something our left-leaning press has forgotten how to do.
Maybe so. But it is also possible that the press is simply more comfortable with an interpretive paradigm in which spin, framing, and rhetorical maneuvering holds acceptable (by the standards set by current academics) sway, given that adhering to a paradigm in which they are asked to do “reporting” so that readers can reach their own conclusions is not nearly so glamorous and conducive to “bringing about change.”
When NPR “balances” the fiercely partisan E.J. Dionne with talking vagina David Brooks, there’s no question that what they’re doing is something other than in the spirit of inquiry I think. They’ve become quite comfortable using the verb to frame on air. Unabashed, really.
“Words just words”
“Words just words”
B. Hussein Obama
Watching the videos reports from Missouri, where two sitting state’s prosecuting attorneys are leading the Obama Truth Squads under the color of their offices is actually more disturbing to me than the economic collapse of the country.
I believe that Richard Fernandez is correct when he opines the Obama campaign as last gasp. Pity so many folks have died by one last convulsive squeeze of a trigger or detonator in the hands a beaten, evil, enemy.
It’s going to be ugly before it’s done.
“with “meaning†becoming nothing more than that narrative which is imposed upon us by the plurality.”
I think you leave out The Ministry of Truth™ role here. Do you ever listen to PSAs on AM radio. My God the doubling down on the latest cultural fetish. Smoking, Global Warming et al paid in part by taxpayer funds( The npr is a massive PSA). So you have that and when I go to the Home Depot they tell me to be green. And BP wants to go green. And it seems to be a virus that is running through the West. And O! points to China for inspiration. In China they are proud of their culture and country and Michelle is not.
America is becoming a gloomy place.
I can feel the hot, fetid breath of the SS on my neck.
[…] Deep thots, channelling Stanley Kurtz re Obama’s attacks on free speech, at Protein Wisdom. […]
Billy Maher and Jeaneanne Garaffolo tell me that the inflection in Sarah Palin’s voice is racist, yet somehow, I’m paying for HBO. Prepare for massive human waves of teh stupid.
>>I can feel the hot, fetid breath of the SS on my neck.
Is THAT what it is? I thought I just had the window open..
#5 dre said'” In China they are proud of their culture and country and Michelle is not.”
Well. To be fair, in China, if you’re not proud of your culture and show it, you get a bullet in the head.
This is wayyyyy offthread and topic but the Redskins just kicked the shit outa the Cowboys. Hell yeah!!!!
lee
less Nazi than old Uncle Joe. Our MSM is already emulating Duranty.
It is gotten so bad I can’t even watch TV news anymore. The blatant spin that is on the main 3 networks pisses me off too much. That and the WashingtonPost publishes at least 1 article every 3 days that conveys the impression that if you do not vote for O! you are a racist.
“Well. To be fair, in China, if you’re not proud of your culture and show it, you get a bullet in the head.”
True but I’m speaking more of a civilization aspect. 2,3,4000 years. China as an idea and a reality.
>One of the joys of both a Living Constitution and a culture whose communicative paradigm has internalized the linguistically incoherent receiver-centric model of tying interpretation to meaning (all while circumventing authorial intent when that intent frustrates “additional†meaning derived by resignification), is that  by taking away that original locus of meaning  all that remains is whatever “convention†for interpretation that happens to hold sway.
Shorter sentences.
Please.
I don’t think it is a mistake, Jeff – they’ve been undermining the First Amendment in the preschools and most directly in the academy for decades. The Obama, PBUH, phenomenon is the perfect storm of speech suppression, with his half-African-ness and crypto-Islamic-flavor providing the pretext – every college kid knows that “datz rasissst” is a sufficient justification to excommunicate someone from campus, and, along with exceeding your carbon allotment, is perhaps the only recognized sin.
This the lightning, dumbed down to lightning bug, and is similar to Maguire’s AnnenNothingberger.
‘Forsooth, it appears I’ve adorned my gown, for nothing’
I think this swirl is rah-team political rhetoric shaded and masked in intellectual polemics.
Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.
I see the resident 2nd rate bolshivek has clomped in.
Comrade, don’t pick your toes at the dinner table.
Darleen, I think Schutzstaffel (German for “Protective Squadron”), is more apt.
Especially considering Obamas plans for a personal army rivaling the US army.
Mr. Pink,
Not trying to sound all one upsy here, but I have not watched broadcast National news in about 10 years. 1) I can not stand medicine commercials, 2) There is no longer any real news there at all. a 2 or 2 1/2 minute report at most. Which is even less when you consider that, being television, much of that time is vacuous pretty pictures of stock footage or someone walking looking pensively into nothing. All the “stories” are the same… hook/ human interest, narrative with expert opinion, brief counter point, dismissal of counter, bring back to the full circle. Disgusting.
And nothing Jeff had not been discussing recently either.
Oh, and I have not had a TV for two years now. Got out of the habit while we were stationed overseas. I have found so much more time in my day… OK. Sorry. Did not want to go there.
– I keep telling them its just too damn much thinking for the average guy or gal. you’ll more often tham not get answers like:
“I got your nuancy baby, right here…..”
– or
“So this nar-reetive shit….is that like complicated, sorta “math stuff”…?”
– or my personal favorute
– “Huu….All those big words again…. WEll shee-it….I don’t know, but you better not be a’sayin anything bad about me douchenozzle….”
How can someone’s voice be racist?!
I’ll say it again for the barbarians at the gate…
if ANY DDA in my little corner of the country were to go live on video the way those two tanshirters did in MO, they’d be on admin leave as we speak and the state bar would be opening an investigation.
No, they’re not. This is still a free country. No one was jailed for “Bushitler”, and no one should be jailed for lese majeste directed at Obama.
There are countries that operate the way you describe; this shouldn’t be one of them.
“Billy Maher and Jeaneanne Garaffolo tell me that the inflection in Sarah Palin’s voice is racist”
– The Proggs think the race card is their ticket to power. Just step back and look at this entire election.
– If they cab get away with it, I fully expect them to stand outside voting places and yell “Don’t be a racist, vote for Obama”.
– I think the more they ratchet up the race baiting, the bigger the disappointment they’re in for.
Darleen, I think Schutzstaffel (German for “Protective Squadronâ€Â), is more apt.
Especially considering Obamas plans for a personal army rivaling the US army.
Actually, the more correct term is Sturmabteilung (SA). Hitler had his uses for the SA but, once in power and alarmed at SA leader Ernst Roehm’s demands to replace the Reichswehr with his own people, the Fuehrer conveniently
had Roehm and many of his associates arrested and shot (“Night of the Long Knives” – June 1934). The SA never recovered from this blow and rapidly declined in strength and prestige. This event also marked the ascent of Heinrich Himmler’s SS, which had previously been a sub-unit of the SA.
Bottom line: I’m not suggesting Obama is “Hitler.” However, if he does attempt to create an army of “community organizers” potentially big enough and powerful enough to rival the U.S. Armed Forces, historical precedent indicates his little experiment won’t end happily.
Capisce, paisan?
Journlists may spin as they please. I think you must understand that the long history of newspapers includes a long stretch of little pretense to objectivity, and so they have reverted.
What is more important is for citizens to re-aquire healthy skepticism of what they see and read from newsmen or other source of information.
And keeping law enforcement out of the truth enforcing business seems a sound policy. I’d fire the MO folks if I had the power for intimidation of free speech under color of authority granted by the state.
#11 Mr Pink
Some of us are not so happy with that outcome. On the other hand, it may signal a revival of the rivalry.
17 and 18: Gave yourself away again, thor. That shit truly is inexcusable.
@ 28 SarahW What is more important is for citizens to re-aquire healthy skepticism of what they see and read from newsmen or other source of information.
Take that another step too…. as I have noted before, these “journalists” are trying to be an expert of all things (master of none) for profit. Furthermore, when you are aware/ involved with an event, watch how wrong they get it in their reporting.
Baracky is scary cause he thinks hate is fun and it’s great for him now, prancing around doing his McCain is Bush and my media says you hate Bush hate him hate him hate him and Christians and bitter clingers hate hate hate but what Baracky forgets is that he’ll be hated too, him and his media having steeped out culture in the politics of hate, but he’ll be quite different from Bush in his reaction is what I think people fear.
*our culture*
Yes. While still being able to claim a mantle of “objectivity,” and so able to exert the kind of influence on a populace they are now practicing.
As for this:
Please note again that you are not required to read here. Sean Hannity uses short declarative sentences. Maybe you’d feel more comfortable at his site.
hf safe connection:
O’ Hail the Messiah Lord Obama
I had a little taste of that last year about this time. I did indeed watch many things “gotten wrong” in favor of a preconceived narrative. Still do, actually.
You can tell when people had more trouble with the learning to read thing I think when they cling to periods like life preservers. Just float. You won’t sink I promise.
They can’t claim it any longer when it is exposed. So what it needs, is exposing. The cure is more speech. And no law goons getting in the way of it.
That just means you’re wrong.
Not unusual, frankly.
Just because they claim the mantle of objectivity doesn’t mean they have it, deserve it, or can fool everyone into accepting it.
whoa. very Le Miz, dre. I for real am trepidative about this Baracky person. He doesn’t feel organic at all.
I probably should have used an s on Le. But for real, SarahW, these media people are a lot pernicious and evil. It’s the pretense of journalism amplified by marketing and even darker arts. Think on their resources.
I do have some trouble with the “able to claim objectivity” criticism. They can claim they are made of chocolate and bunny tails, it doesn’t mean it’s true or that anyone in particular is required to accept the claim. Reputation matters. Trading on reputation as you sell it in a subprime subsidy of twisting facts, eventually gets you a bad reputation.
Remember when they invented a flu epidemic that one time before the election and everybody panicked to get shots and they ran out of medicine? That was creepy.
It helps if you can catch ’em in a fib.
And pushback against the goons is pretty important.
I just didn’t get a shot or the flu.
Are you feeling better by now, SarahW?
That reminded me that you were sick for a while there.
One thing I learned about this year was the news cycle and how it worked for that one story with my name attached to it. If there was a major development, all the other newsies wanted to get a gimmick with a related side-story.
SPB – Just when I think I’m out, the viruses pull me back in. I’m up and down.
I am seeing the doc next week in case my thryoid is asploding.
That’s a given. The problem is, we’ve been taught for years that they have it, and most people don’t follow the news or politics closely enough to understand just how profound the problem is.
And of course, in a country that seems nearly evenly divided, a few percentage points won over by a dishonest activist press can change the entire course of the country, given that the courts are impacted.
“whoa. very Le Miz, dre.”
It’s fun to sing the praises of Baracky to the Soviet anthem.
Glad to hear that you’re seeing a doc, SarahW.
Well, that pretty much says it all right there.
I was never taught so. I was taught to be wary. I’m warier than ever now, having gotten a closer view. But you know, the concept of citizen journalists never did fully sink in, until that one time BillINDC called an expert himself (to ask questions about typefaces). That completely blew my mind, that this was not the domain of some priesthood of paid fact-gatherers.
Well anyone on the “right” is evil so they deserve their lying necks being stomped. They deserve it and more. Jail them, prosecute them, imprison them. Nothing must get in the way of O!.
Fascism and hate coupled with ignorance is what you are spewing.
“that one time BillINDC ”
showed me some really interesting moonbat displays:) Viva el BillINDC
Maybe I had earlier experience with news accounts stretching stories for entertainment value at the coaxing of paid shills feeding them material.
In the great MEDICAL MALPRACTICE CRISIS! of the eighties, Insurance companies managed to spin and play using the media and ding tort verdicts so hard with lies and distortions, I bet you still believe half of the stories are true. They weren’t, and I can’t undo your impressions with facts anymore I’ll bet, so ingrained is the conventional wisdom now.
It helped make me a very skeptical consumer of the news.
“Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.”
Let’s all just print that out and keep it in our wallets to remind us why it’s important to get out on Election Day and keep fascists like this out of power.
Thor, private persons saying, Nuh uh, you are wrong and here’s why is one thing. Trying to shut down or chill criticism using a collection of law-enforcement officials? That is the America you want O to bring to you?
Does anybody have any idea what Ardolino is up to these days? I haven’t seen anything by him or about him in several months now.
…shaded and masked in intellectual polemics.
POLEMICIST
-IST!!!!!!1111eleventy!!!!!
Of course we haven’t got to the practical part yet. Give it time.
Regards,
Ric
Thyroid? I pray not, SarahW.
It can be dealt with simply enough if it’s just a function issue. Good luck, ma’am.
Dealt with. Not fixed. There’s always the difference.
The entire tenor of the O! campaign is based upon misinformation and misdirection. The AxelTurf is a master at this in all it’s forms. It is very scary.
I like CSPAN. House now Dumb and Dumber
“…given that adhering to a paradigm in which they are asked to do ‘reporting’ so that readers can reach their own conclusions is not nearly so glamorous and conducive to “bringing about change.â€Â
Jeff,
While I think you have a point here, that some in the MSM are trying to fulfill an internalized romantic notion of the activist jounalist or courageous sooth sayer working with an heroic candidate to bring about change, I think that for most it is much simpler.
Most are hyper-partisan Democrats who still feel the sting of Both Clintons second term and tha last two close elections. Their BDS make them fundamentally incabable of accepting the fact that a Rube like Bush, regardless of his pedigree or academic credentials, could have possibly defeated their infinately more qualified candidates-fairly that is (ROVE!)! And, while they have always liked and valued McMav, in kind of a comic relief way-relishing the schadenfreude of such a high visibility Republican would act to thwart the party’s agenda, there is absolutely no way that he could ever be as worthy as O! who is their ideological and academic peer. Whether consciously, or unconsciously, they cannot engage in any reportage other than that which either holds O! in a favorable light or minimizes any possible damage to his campaign.
In doing so, they have traded their ethics and integrity for a chance to feel like they participated in a historic episode; convincing even themselves that they had to do so in order to right so many wrongs, such as racism,Boooosh-ism, and the evils of Republicanism, instead of being intellectually honest about their abuse the privalege extended to them by the first amendment. Instead of admitting their complete lack of objectivity they console themselves in the notion that the end justifies the means. The delicious irony here is that their perversion of the system will allow for the tables to be turned upon them should they become inconvenient; once O! & Co have power and have no further need for the assistance of the fifth column useful idiots.
If Stanley Kurtz would sue the Obama campaign for defamation for calling him a smear merchant, and harassment for siccing their legion of brownshirts on him, I would laugh and laugh and laugh. Normally, I don’t find that sort of thing funny, but I’d find that funny.
Shorter Jeff: Leftys Lift Language; Leverage Learning; Leave Liberalism Languishing.
“#Comment by cynn on 9/28 @ 8:24 pm #
Shorter Jeff: ”
Lefties Like Old Fashioned Ideas!
The MSM cadre all fancy themselves to be like Warren Beatty in that movie Reds…
Instead of admitting to themselves that they are only trying to empower commies!
As far as I can tell, Jeff is making a convoluted case that the Obama camp is somehow hitching onto the postmodern hayride and attempting to deflect inquiries into Lefty workings based on a conspiracy that has yet to be proved. But I will certainly give Jeff accolades for excellent and provocative prose.
I feel a compulsion to make popcorn…
“Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.”
That right there is why I’m not really in the mood to be civil to or debate with Leftards any more.
Tell you what, thor, come on down to TX and try it. On anyone. I promise to change the IP of your brain to domain .357 when you do.
Scumbag.
Bob, you are of course correct, and as you yourself note, so is Jeff (as usual). But there is another factor.
What Jeff points out is the self-congratulatory side. The Press can pat itself on the back for guiding the rubes to the correct destination. But that doesn’t completely explain the wholesale abandonment of “reporting” in favor of “interpretation”. There is another force operating: the bean counters.
Opinion is cheap. Not just in the sense that there’s a near-infinite supply of it, as witness here and other blogs and their comments, but once acquired it’s cheap to maintain, too. A pundit needs an office, a salary, and benefits; an occasional meal or round of drinks for an informant, to loosen lips and garner the necessity to pretend information-gathering, doesn’t break the budget.
A reporter, on the other hand, needs support — travel and living expenses, sometimes protection, plus editing and fact-checking back at the home office. The reporter of necessity keeps odd hours, pulls overtime, and causes contention when he gets back to the office. Despite the fact that the pundit’s salary is bigger, the total cost of keeping a reporter in the field is easily twice the cost of a pundit, and can get astronomical in the case of, say, Iraq. (Or Alaska. I’ll bet the Palin Brigade were more than a little astonished that Anchorage or Juneau prices are much more like Manhattan, NY than Manhattan, KS.)
“Bean counter” is pejorative. Accountants are necessary and admirable people. A bean counter, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, is almost always a destructive element, and the “almost” goes away in the long run. As here — the bean counters have determined that opinion is cheap and reportage expensive, so policy will be to emphasize opinion at the expense of reportage. It’s cost-effective.
What makes cost effectiveness destructive in this case is its synergy with the previously existing politics of news. Excluding the publisher, valid in most cases, the pecking order is pundit, editor, reporter from top to bottom. (When the publisher participates, he is essentially a super-pundit.) In the New Regime everybody gets to be a pundit (perceived status) and nobody has to tramp the streets (saving costs). Positive feedback.
Regards,
Ric
No, cynn, there’s no conspiracy. Conspiracy is unnecessary — redundant, in fact — and occasionally dangerous. Ants don’t conspire; they haven’t the necessary equipment. They find the sugar anyway.
Regards,
Ric
I’m with cynn. Lately, especially, things do tend to veer to the super paranoid around here. Anyway, thought this would be of interest from Volokh Conspiracy on topic of Obama truth squads in Missouri: http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_09_28-2008_10_04.shtml#1222640785
I realize there are plenty of other complaints about the Obama campaign’s approach towards critics. But it’s nonetheless interesting that McCain’s truth squads have at least some law enforcement officials on them too, no?
Ok, have at me.
“Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.â€Â
And to think some believe the killing fields, Kolyma, reeducation camps, etc. were just anomalies.
I don’t deny there’s a spin. It goes all ways, always. What I object to is the assertion that there is some insidious appropriation of the “narrative” in the press by the left. There are too many outlets of information; if anything, there will be more, not less, confusion and perplexity.
It’s good to see Mark Steyn weighing in on this:
Another quote:
With regard to everything you said, Jeff, I would say Exactamundo. In brief, the question comes down to whether any one thinks they have a brain.
Jeff:
cynn…cynn…yoohoo…cynn
Care to step up and take ownership of this?
C’mon cynn. Own it.
— the vast majority of which, when were speaking of mainstream outlets, tack left. Simply by percentage — even granting that some reporters do their level best to be as fair minded as possible — you’ll have an appropriation of the narrative by the left.
What is worrisome here is the pattern. And it’s not conspiratorial to point out what has in fact been going on. There is a reason the public believes 2-1 that the “right” is responsible for the mortgage crisis — and that hardly anyone outside readers of blogs or listeners to rightwing talk radio knows of Obama’s connections (along with Dodd, Schumer, etc.) to the key players.
…And here you trip on your own intentionalist prick. I own my words; you can respond as you see fit.
Sez the one willfully assigning her own meaning to other’s words so she can then destroy a strawman of her own creation.
and stifle debate that runs counter to her internal narrative
Will the real shredder of the first amendment please stand up?
(looks at cynn)
Are you referring to me, TerryH? How did I do that, because I shouldn’t have.
@83 Jeff G.  even granting that some reporters do their level best to be as fair minded as possible â€â€
And further still, beyond this point, there is (or perceived to be) a lessening in the quality of reporting. More noise, more commercialism, more sensationalism, more Couric. Drew Curtis has an entire site and book about this. And my earlier comments in this thread address the other issues regarding poor journalistic practice/ due diligence, for profit raison d’être, and the formulaic narrative/ storytelling slope downward.
The one ray of hope is that they are failing.
All of the MSM “news” organizations are either in or approaching financial trouble. People simply aren’t buying their stuff — by which I mean literally: forking over cash (or taking the time to look at the ads, which is a form of payment) for the product.
It’s easy to see why. Why should a rightist pay for a newspaper, or suffer through commercials? All it’s going to do is get him angry. Why should a leftist do so? All it’s going to do is confirm his prejudices. Neither of them any longer expects any information content.
Members of the Press sometimes respond to this, “You’re gonna miss us when we’re gone.” Sorry. You left a long time ago, and yes, we do miss it.
Regards,
Ric
The Main Stream Media have been irrelevant to many of us for a long time. That said, I do check in with some of the old school reporters now and then. And thanks, I’m bright enough to analyze what I read or hear.
You aren’t the target demographic.
What is that target, Jeff? The lumpenproletariat? Cindy Lou and the Whos?
In the link cited, I reference an example wherein statistics that reflect badly upon a protected identity group are assumed to be evidence of racism by certain elements of the interpretive community that Jeff keeps calling attention to.
In response, you state:
Which suggests to me that you are part of this interpretive community that Jeff keeps calling attention to.
Ignore the facts, hurl accusations of racism, and expect guilt to stifle the debate.
JeffG, have you been pointed to this American Thinker piece yet? (link follows in next post, it’s getting caught in moderation) I just read it and can’t sleep. The article is “Barack and the Strategy of manufactured Crisis”
I am myself frustrated that decent people I know who are enamored by the O mystique know little enough about his past, actively avert their eyes from it, and would never believe it unless immersed in it at every turn from every source…though most of it is unassailably fact, objectively true.
For how could he have gotten this far? Why wouldn’t I have heard about this from the media that wants to tell me everything important? It can’t be, it must be some rabid wingnut fantasy.
TerryH: It means I say whatever I please, and I don’t care to have nefarious intentions assigned to me by the jittery right.
The site has blocked the link in every form I can put it in, so I’ll try it without the www and the http.
americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html
Yay. That took several tries.
Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.
WTF does ” well withing their rights” actually mean? Is Thor the functional equivalent of Obama, stringing lots of big and buzzy words together that don’t even fucking make sense? The ultra stupid party?
,i>#
Comment by cynn on 9/28 @ 10:14 pm #
TerryH: It means I say whatever I please, and I don’t care to have nefarious intentions assigned to me by the jittery right.
Also, I don’t live in reality– I write it to be what i want it to be, rewrite it if I don’t like it and pretend alot. Like when Obama voted for FISA? I told myself he didn’t really mean it.
Trying this
That got it Sarah W
People who get their news exclusively through those types of outlets and who have been relying on them for years. Of course, the ones it sways — that Evan Thomas 5-15% — tend to be “undecideds,” which, as I noted yesterday, is probably symptomatic of something else, given that the difference between the candidates is fairly vast.
Sarah —
Just read it. Chilling, isn’t it?
We’ve become so cynical of conspiracy theories that we forget, say, 70s cinema was rife with it — and it took itself seriously. These are your new leftists grown up and come to power. What they projected on the right they did themselves, rationalizing it as some sort of patriotic duty owing to the “social justice” they were being fed, many unwittingly, by the communists.
I don’t believe, with Fernandez, that this is a last gasp effort. I believe this is an offensive, born of a recognition that the time could be right to seize power of all branches of government and institute changes the likes of which we haven’t seen in 60 + years.
I’ve noticed a lot of chiding from new trolls lately about paranoia, and they are helped out by “sensible, worldly, thinking” independents like, eg., Hubris, who waves his sophisticated hand at the idea that some kind of long term ideological plan can ever be put into play. “Posh,” he says. “That is just your rightwing lizard mind succumbing to fear. Whereas I am more thoughtful, and would never stoop to breaking out such old tactics as ‘red baiting.’ How 1950s.”
Nevertheless, to the New Left, many of whom went into academia, this is indeed a long term project, and they’ve been churning out disciples for years. Meanwhile, the march through institutions have softened us up and dumbed us down to the point where we listen to promises uncritically, and are easily fooled by socialism in the garb of moderate-sounding appeals to social justice and the middle class.
I am horrified by the fact that we are so close to an election and the mainstream press has not filled in any of Obama’s background. And yet just 4 years ago they were arguing about kerning and superscript.
Well, then, if the press won’t do it, TV ads are going to be needed to jump right over them. As long as they’re well-designed for maximum effect and point out exactly who was behind the loan problems and Freddie/Fannie (i.e. directly counter the “It was George Bush and his deregulations!” meme). Not to mention that, as domestic issues, these are all coming up again in the 2nd + 3rd debates for additional opportunities to mention them with no media screening or editing. Those debates will be on Tuesday and Wednesday nights as well; lots of people tend to go out on Friday nights.
Sure, it’s been said before, but it bears repeating. If McCain had even some sort of tenuous connection to an abortion clinic bomber or if he’d ever attended a church where the pastor had made any sort of controversial remark within the past twenty years, the MSM would be on it like flies on shit.
If anyone on the right had anywhere near a “rightwingwacko” conterpoint to O!’s background the MSM would be burning effigy’s on the streets of New York.
Well, we’ve seen the MSM try to turn Hagee into McCain’s “Crazy Uncle” Wright. They even tried to turn Sarah Palin into him based on absolutely nothing.
I find it hard to imagine McCain clinching the nomination if he ever wrote in a book “Jews greed runs a world in need.”
I think the public is making a more basic connection between Republicans and the Financial Crisis.
People aren’t buying into the MSM spin wholesale, what they are doing is holding republicans responsible for a vacuum of passionate defense, confirming any suspicions they might have that every last one of these guys has been bought and sold.
They (the public) fault republicans because they aren’t offering any dramatic alternatives- emphasis on dramatic. This is what the polls are reflecting.
Obama scolds “John, You were wrong” repeatedly, and McCain just stood there and took it- so it must have some merit the public calculates.
Read Jeff’s post and the American Thinker piece again, then compare that to the first debate. All of this highlights how unprepared McCain has been to this point, and Americans can see through all the spin and understand that fundamental truth.
If McCain ( the leader of the opposition party) is unable to challenge Obama in this way, then the American public is never really being presented with much of a choice.
People are watching McCain, not MSNBC.
“Well, then, if the press won’t do it, TV ads are going to be needed to jump right over them.”
And as we’re seeing right now, the Left is simply not going to let them be aired. Whether through local / state / federal government action (see Berkely CA and open ssupport of Code Pink against recruiters, or MO AG’s, or threats of action from FCC / DOJ), or by threats to terrify the owners / employees by thug action (“Get In Their Face”), or just by having MSM outlets refusing to accept them at all.
There’s an old saying: Americans have 4 boxes to change their government: Soapbox, mailbox, ballot box, cartridge box. Well, we can see the removal of the soapbox as an option right here.
I can see why he would have gone easy in this last debate with the deal hanging in the balance. If he were to list the litany of Dem sins that caused this mess, and it blew up the deal, we’d be hearing forever how it was all McCain’s fault.
If he doesn’t throttle Obama with these easily demonstrable facts in the next debate, well, he’s just not trying.
Meanwhile they’re apoplectic over Mike Fucking Wooten and shoveling shit like this, even having the chutzpah to include this:
SarahW, a thyroid problem isn’t the end of the world. It just means taking a small pill every day (and a lot of monthly bloodwork at the beginning to get your dose dialed in). Mine has been (almost completely) non-functioning for 7 years now and I’m just fine. Except for the tic, but that started in ’06.
I think Victor has it right.
“It’s the Republicans’ fault!” is untrue on the detail level — the things that caused the problem were Democratic Party initiatives. On a deeper level, yeah, well, they’re against it now, but back when something could’ve been done they were willing to trade away their opposition for more access to pork.
Which puts McCain at a worse disadvantage. Of all the Senators, he’s probably the most devout believer in collegiality and compromise, and one of the few willing to practice what he preaches. This makes it impossible for him to even talk about “principles”, since he’s always willing to trade. Worse, it makes him look a putz. Lucy can only snatch the football away so many times before we conclude that Charlie Brown, however nice, is too stupid to pound sand.
Regards,
Ric
Ric,
You have a point about the cost of opinion…
Owing to the proliferation of cable news, there are a lot of seat/hours for the MSM to fill!
Comment by drill on 9/28 @ 9:12 pm #
OK Drill,
There may have been McCain truth squads during the primaries, but neither the squads themselves nor the campaign ever actually did anything to actively squelch or shout=sown their opponents…
The same can not be said for O! who’s campaign has shown not only a willingness, but a prediliction, to employ ideological, electronic, and physical means to intimidate and silence their critics-before the revelation of the Missouri truth squad came out ! That what makes the notion of it that much more chilling.
You see, for the McCain campaign the moniker of Truth Squad was merely a turn of the phrase, but for O!s campaign it could be a sign of things to come…
So any comment by the Truth Squad on Obama’s spanish language add portraying McCain as a racist?
Ric, I take it Tom DeLay is your hero.
I would take Tom Delay as opposed to Nancy Pelosi. Who used to say beautiful things like this when she was a minority leader. Now though she has a different tack.
Pelosi Seeks House Minority ‘Bill of Rights’
Hastert Dismisses Democrats’ Complaint, Saying GOP Record Is Better Than Foes’
By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 24, 2004; Page A23
House Democrats’ anger at heavy-handed Republican tactics reached a new level yesterday, with the chamber’s top Democrat asking the House speaker to embrace a “Bill of Rights” for the minority, regardless which party it is.
In keeping with the general atmosphere of the House these days, aides to Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) said he will not respond to the two-page proposal from Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).
For decades, the party in power has used House parliamentary rules to limit the minority party’s ability to amend bills and shape debates. But Democrats — in the minority for 10 years after four decades of control — say Republicans have gone to unreasonable lengths in recent years. GOP leaders dispute this, but congressional scholars and even some rank-and-file Republicans agree in whole or in part.
Pelosi’s document, which she vows to honor if Democrats regain the majority, says: “Too often, incivility and the heavy hand of the majority” have silenced Democrats and choked off “thoughtful debate.” She called on the majority to let the minority offer meaningful amendments and substitutes to important bills; to limit roll-call votes to the normal 15 minutes rather than keeping them open to round up needed votes; and to let all appointees to House-Senate conference committees participate in meetings and decisions.
“When we are shut out, they are shutting out the great diversity of America,” Pelosi said in an interview. “We want a return to civility; we want to set a higher standard.”
Hey Apple Brandy, (can I just call you Brandy for short?)
You might want to spend some time in the archives reading what people actually write before trying to tell them what they think or believe.
Might help you not sound like a jackass.
All politicians suck, Tom Delay included.
[…] to SarahW) Posted by Darleen Click @ 1:40 pm | Trackback Share […]
JeffG
The MSM won’t explore The One’s background because they have become complete house organs for his election. I said on the skewz podcast that the only way the media would ever seriously knock O down a peg or two if he was 15 points ahead and his election was never in jeopardy. It is way too close for the MSM and they are pulling out all stops to “get” the Republicans. All coverage of O is flattering and cheerleading and anything to give even the modest amount of credit to the other side is Bowdlerized out of the narrative.
For heaven’s sake, I’ve read “analysis” of the debates that described O! as “Reaganesque”!!! WTF?
I can sort of see why those on the Left disagree with the analysis, though.
I’ve got a journalist in my family – a photojournalist, in fact. She’s a lovely girl,very intelligent and adventurous, travels extensively, lives well with her rich husband, all that.
And she goes to these places, sees all this with her very own eyes, and then works with other journalists to shoehorn the whole enchilada into the narrative.
It isn’t like she thinks she’s being disingenuous, though. To herself, she’s being objective. And if you bitch, of course she’ll throw out ‘I’ve been there, I saw it’.
But the truth is – and we’ve argued this a little – she’s no tabula rasa when it comes to thinking about what she’s seen. Everything goes through a filter wherein the narrative is already set from long ago and things are weighed in light of that. Anything the Right might come up with is minor key, leitmotif stuff. Occasionally she’ll give credit for a minor point, a kind of ‘OK you got me there’, but nothing that alters the grounded belief.
Further, she’s cool with this, fully aware of it. She argues that none of us can be a blank slate, objective in all senses.
So, when people say this is all Rightwing paranoia, I can understand why they see it that way, b/c we’re outside looking in, saying “can’t you see what’s going on?” and no, they really can’t. They’re in it.
Yeah that brings to mind one of the classes of journalism I took in college. The only bias network everyone could agree on was Fox News, and this was right after they said Al Jazeerah was a good place to get international news. Hell the teacher was a journalist of 20 plus years and admitted to running for office as a democrat halfway thru the semester. It seemed the class, and proffessor, where all unable to reach any conclusion that would even acknowledge that things were skewed in one direction. I do not think they even allow themselves to think critically about that.
Reminds me of one of the times I walked out of class. Some douchebag behind me said, “Well they are all from Alabama and racist anyway.”, or something to that effect. Everyone in the class nodded their heads and noone seemed to care except me who took the opportunity to leave. I did not even hear anyone even disagree with that opinion or consider it out of bounds.
“They (the public) fault republicans because they aren’t offering any dramatic alternatives- emphasis on dramatic. This is what the polls are reflecting.”
Victor;
You are still trying to distill this mess into a mere decade.
The Republicans have done such a great job of convincing the Public they oppose Regulation,(because it’s GOOD business!) it’s as though you have Neon lights flashing your message when you aren’t shouting it through a bullhorn.
This is not a ‘tactical’ problem, it is strategic, and that simple soundbyte you utilize so effectively, is now going to hound you to Baskerville Hell.
Get over, ’cause you are over……………….
I am coming to the same conclusion cleo. I would have just one minor quibble with your wordage though. I would use this instead of your last sentence.
Get over, ’cause WE are over……………….
Which makes this one the fifth in a row where they’ve all but openly advocated for the Democrat.
The repubs could be alot better at strategy. They should be tying this to Dodd and Obama’s past statements willing the “underprivleged” to get loans they could not afford. Also reference ACORN and O!’s past work for them. They could then tie this to universal healthcare and other pie in the sky dem programs. It is a fact everyone can not afford a house and it is a fact that everyone can not just have free healthcare that works, it is just not possible. Too bad the repubs seem either stuck in the campaign state of August or they can not get thru the media Narrative that is very effectively blaming all of this one them, rightly or wrongy very arguable.
cleo, this is not a failure of deregulation. Quite the opposite, this is a failure of the socialization of the market. This is a failure of regulation.
Pink;
This does not mean the election is decided. If the conservative base keeps it’s highnote, they will probably forget about the BailOut….
the Dem base is less likely to forget….and may stay home.
Pablo good luck convincing people of that considering that every major newspaper has already recieved their official Dem talkin points. The fact that the government was regulating that the banks had to give loans to low-income citizens seems not to penetrate.
>Certain in Barack Obama’s camp are well withing their rights to step on the necks of the liars and frauds in the wingered political right.
Thor, you don’t get it. One side says “I send guys with guns to shut you up”. The other says, “I’ll send guys with guns first”.
Guys with guns == police.
If politics comes down to guys with guns, then the only thing that matters is who has bigger ones and who shoots first. If you don’t understand that basic concept, you are stupid.
Democratic politics is about fighting out differences WITHOUT guns.
Derek
‘cleo believes she’s immune from going up against the wall, methinks…
I think alot of people on the left have long ago decided that since power belongs to them, that is unless it is “stolen”, they are entitled to use it as they see fit in order to retain it. The use of the power of the State to silence critics can not be defended in a free society if the society is to remain free. The only thing they can do is either ignore actions like this, or engage in a friendlyhopeychangey topic changing anti-Bush rant. Miss cleo is choosing the ignore option.
>And of course, in a country that seems nearly evenly divided, a few percentage points won over by a dishonest activist press can change the entire course of the country, given that the courts are impacted.
Will it really matter though.
The second most pressing matter on the minds of journalists is whether they will have a job this time next year.
Is Obama promising subsidies to the yellow press? is that why they are drooling over him?
Derek
I’m going to frame this post with the caption “this is what happens when your brain is soaking in Sean Hannity’s barf.”
This excerpt from WaPo illustrates there are probably many conservatives who think the WH will be radioactive for any Party
following the Election. Personally, I feel sorry for whichever poor bastard gets it. This country is FUBAR on numerous fronts, notwithstanding the Economics.
“While some journalists say privately they are censoring their comments about Palin to avoid looking like they’re piling on, pundits on the right are jumping ship. MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough says Palin “just seems out of her league.” National Review Editor Rich Lowry called her performance “dreadful.” Dallas Morning News columnist Rod Dreher described the interview as a “train wreck.” Conservative columnist Kathleen Parker urged Palin to quit the race, saying: “If BS were currency, Palin could bail out Wall Street herself.””
Long ago I stated Barack Obama is a rare political talent. Not so long ago I stated Sister Palin is a deranged hick whose tits outweigh her brains by a very large margin.
Show me where I was wrong.
So now we got not only the ignore but topic changing to Palin. Beautiful.
So thor having the government mandate that banks had to give loans to people that could not afford them is a failure of deregulation?
I wonder what kind of screams would have echoed from the rafters had President Bush tried to have the Justice Department go after the untruths in The Path to 911?
No one ever made banks give loans to anyone. Only a dish rag would think such.
This is in my hometown. I’m writing my alderman and the Mayor, with a CC to Missouri Bar Assn. This is an outrage.
Oh, look! thor is wrong again.
Imagine that.
http://dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=node/3935
Pablo willfull blindness to the failures and excesses of their own side is something the left shares in common with Germany circa WW2. Neither one will even comment on the topic of this post, they just want to move the conversation on to Palin or something completely different. I thought they would try to move it on to Bush but it seems Palin is the new object of their hate these days.
Heres a link that gives you the docs without spin (comments allowed)
I love the appended acronym TARP as ‘Total Abdication of Responsibilty to the Public’
http://publicmarkup.org/
Cleo are you ever going to comment on the subject of the post?
Oh look, wittle Pabwo reverts to a racist knee-jerk assumption that default rates in minority neighborhoods are higher than the luxury condo market.
3,2,1.. “duuuuuuh!”
Another r-wingered mating call echoes through the halls of shame.
Wow, Pablo associates a accepted violation of US Federal law (specifically, the nice laws against “red-lining”) with banks being “forced” to loan money to poor people! The fact that the virtuous, put upon banks then bundled those mortgages into financial packages which made them exceedingly wealthy for a decade is just an accident. They were forced to so by Obama, a 30 year old associate at a medium sized firm.
Either you’re playing fast and loose with facts to discredit the hated Thor or you don’t know much about the law. For christ’s sake, in the article you linked to the sub-heading is
.
I find it hard to understand this implied criticism of Obama fighting “red-lining” or the implied criticism of “red-lining” as a doctrine. Are you for red-lining, pablo?
“Cleo are you ever going to comment on the subject of the post?”
You mean the paranoia that we are in some sort of Obama ‘Beer Putsch”?
Or are you focused on the microcosm of the St Louis matter?
Constitutional, I dunno. I DO suspect that the arrest and detaining of journalists doing their job during the RNC in Minnesota, was unconstitutional, on it’s face.
Accept it as a slapback, and no more. Or provide me with more than a link to Kurtz, to NRO or Powerline, if credibility is your goal?
Thor, everyone knows Miami and California are hotbeds of poor people. Just go look at Malkin saying the foreclosures are caused by illegal immigrants: washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/28/illegal-immigrant-factor/
This is the best paragraph:
Note how she moves seamlessly from “illigal immigrants” to “Hispanics?” She is one clever lady, because she knows almost all Hispanics are illegal immigrants and, when they’re not hanging out at Home Depot looking for work, they’re trying to get those well-meaning banks to give them a mortgage, so they can steal all the money! Crafty, Hispanics, errr, illegals.
Nope. Not what he’s here for. He’s here to divert people away from the subject of the post. Same as thor and “LearnedHand”.
And what law is that, learnedhand? (Here, have a hint.)
And does it or does it not force banks to make mortgages they would not otherwise make? The answer to this question is either yes or no. Do be so kind as to pick one.
“Democratic politics is about fighting out differences WITHOUT guns.”
To the Right yes, and even fighting is too strong a word for what quite a few Republicans do in elections. They act as though elections are disagreements between gentlemen, civilized gentlemen.
For the Left it is not that way. They will do civilized as long as they are winning. In their heart however it is always total war. The Right is their evil enemy and they will go as far as needed to destroy their enemy.
We, on the Right, see a firewall between elections and the resort to guns in settling differences. It is similar to the break the West sees between conventional war and nuclear war.
In the Soviet Union there was no such break. Nuclear war was seen as simply part of the thing called war. To be employed as needed to win.
Our Left sees the use of force as simply a part of the way to power, elections are another part, propaganda also. They will employ whatever it takes to gain, and this time keep, power. That is what it is all about to them.
1994 was a shock but not as bad as 1996 and then 2000. They had lost the House, the Senate and the Presidency before, but not all three and for an extended period of time. This is what has caused the claws to come out. They can smell total victory, it can be theirs if they just push a little harder, and then a little harder.
Expect things to get worse, much worse.
C-lo @ 128.
Thanks for making my point for me.
If McCain was even slightly prepared, he would ask Obama the exact same question I’ve asked you.
Even though You and Obama are unable to come up with an answer (which should be easy considering you are blaming deregulation), McCain should be ready to explain what this means, Americans would listen.
So in responding to me cleo you even cite something at the RNC. Can you even type one sentence on the subject without something else thrown in? “Mommy but Timmy did it too” is not really that convincing.
Wow. If I were an illegal immigrant, you know, French or Dutch, and I could get a loan at 3% for 5 years, I think I’d jump on that. My balloon payment would directly coincide with my self-deportation. (along with all the copper and appliances, of course)
I’m for responsible lending and responsible borrowing. That means that people who can’t afford to repay loans shouldn’t get them. I’m against discrimination based on skin color, but I’m all for it based on creditworthiness. If that’s redlining, then I approve of it.
[…] Goldstein discusses Democrats’ increasing friendliness with Stalin-style censorship, and why the media won’t defend […]
You mean at the DNC in Denver, cleo.
The hardest working people in South Florida are mostly Haitians, Jamaicans and/or South Americans. Most of the welfare and SS checks are sent to aging old white people sucking oxygen breathers and rolling around in electric tricycles while those unemployment checks are going to overweight, white ex-real estate airheads. I’d buy mortgages in low-income neighborhoods; they’re the only people still depositing honest paychecks.
Clinging to the guns and Bibles, sucking melted butter through a straw, and blaming the coloreds – it’s all Republicans do nowadays.
There is a big difference in arresting protestors and having state prosecutors intimidating and threatening to prosecute people for using their right of free speech. That you can not see that, and are trying to equivocate the two, speaks to willfull blindness and the inability to recognize when people are agree with are wrong.
Are you for red-lining, pablo?
Let’s just all stand up and say “NO” to red-lining. Red-lining is bad, unless it’s in a magician’s cape. Very dramatic.
And with our unanimous denouncement of red-lining, we are now free to get rid of that section in college applications that asks for “Race”.
Thor do you think it is ok to be racist against white people or something? Every comment you make is a racial slur against whites, and particuarly white republicans.
” is not really that convincing.”
Pink;
I tried to make clear that this kerfluffle is not convincing….
But if Constitutional issues are your concern I am ready to hold EVERY act found in contravention to the document by ANY elected or appointed official guilty of ‘HIGH CRIMES or MISDEMEANORS’ with the offender being sentenced to hard time in a REAL prison….and allowing for PROBATION or PAROLE to include having the convicted criminal live ONLY in Section 8 housing, riding ONLY public transportation to and from his/her MINIMUM WAGE JOB for the period until their sentence expires.
BTW; I would support (as an amendment to the Bailout measure, or any Congressional Bill) the immediate suspension of Presidential
Pardoning Powers, to perpetuity.
Yeah thor, why do you hate White People?
The hardest working people in South Florida are mostly Haitians, Jamaicans and/or South Americans.
Sounds like someone is making nice because he couldn’t come up with the cash for his last bale of Ganja.
I am Bi-Partisan in my revulsion for politicians who abuse the Public Trust………It don’t matter one iota which Party or ideology.
The weasel who kills my chickens deserves that shotgun blast to it’s hindquarters.
The weasel who kills my chickens deserves that shotgun blast to it’s hindquarters.
The head-shot really solves that one.
“The head-shot really solves that one.”
I see yer point.
‘Weasels in wheelchairs’ sounds like another special interest group.
I love leftover KFC when I’m stoned.
Especially all the useless old white ones in Florida.
Code name: the Jews.
Gee, pablo, where you associate something bad with something good (CRA) to discredit…well, whatever enemies your mind produces (Obama, thor, “bad” minorities), I like to start at the beginning, you know with the first law that outlawed red-lining, and not necessarily the one passed a few years after to remedy the injustice after “responsible” lenders still refused to lend to minorities.
Then again, I’m absolutely fine with you (and your “movement) going to the American people and explaining how racial discrimination is really responsible lending.
Oh, and before your panties get too ruffled, let’s just stipulate that I am not accusing you of being a racist. I’m accusing you of dishonest linking in trying to discredit thor.
And, also, of not caring if minorities can remedy discrimination. Seems to me, you once “discrimination is an event not a condition”. Red-lining seems to the proof that it can be either.
The Left can never abuse the “Public Trust” because in their minds the are the “Public Trust”. Their vision is of the “Just and True” and they are willing to share our money too.
thor-boi, let me remind you of what you claimed:
I responded with a link demonstrating that Barack Obama sued Citibank to force them to make loans they did not want to make. The motives for Citibank’s reluctance to make such loans were imputed to them by Obama and his client. But the question is this: Did Obama sue Citibank to force them into making loans? Yes or no.
I’m the victim, the the persecuted tragedian, of the meek and trodden class.
“Their vision is of the “Just and True†and they are willing to share our money too.”
Including the cash we will borrow from China to pay back the larded BusinessMen who couldn’t find their investment asses with both hands?
Let me add to my bi-partisan anti-white-collar crime principle…
Fines similar to those given Archer-Daniels-Midland when they tried to corner the citric acid market in the 90’s;
Take the estimated sum of profit made by the illegal acts and multiply them by a factor of 10. You can’t stop this shit unless you hit them where it hurts most; their pocketbook.
Then this would be where you cite it. Carry on.
Go back to my #161 and try reading it for comprehension this time, you fucking nitwit.
yes, it’s much easier to ignore what was actually done with those laws. PAY NO ATTENTION TO CURRENT RESULTS!!!
“racial discrimination,” I don’t think these words mean what you think they do.
So, let’s get this straight.
– Democrats nurture a policy of gearing sub-prime loans to minorities to increase home ownership under the auspices of “eliminating discrimination.”
– Those who receive sub-prime loans have overvalued assets, cannot make payments, eventually default and walk away, screwing us all.
– The same people who the sub-prime market was designed to help are the ones disproportionately impacted by the current mess.
So in short, this attempt at eliminating discrimination actually compounds the problem and will continue to happen so long as Barney Frank and Chris Dodd have the reigns.
Semanticleo,
While Joe Scarborough was a Republican congressman, he is no right wing pundit…
He is, at best, a centrist; but like almost everyone at MSNBC, he has gone over to the dark side…
I denounce myself…
@ 178 – No.
The banks under-served the minority community and got popped for it. Then they fell in love with minority communities after realizing they’re the fastest growing sector of the economy!
When the banks write FNMA and FHLMC mortgages they sell ’em off to those respective agencies. The banks aren’t going belly up because of mortgages they wrote and kept on the books, toad smoker, they’re going belly up because their books are full of mortgage derivative securities and credit default swaps that aren’t worth shit.
#180,
Thank you for perfectly illustrating my point.
RACIST!!!!
Learnedhand person,
You’re a big fat racist pimp.
I know this because you are not out there buying up all those sub-prime loans (10 million at last count), and according to your own idiotic rationale, not spending your earnings on loans to people with a history of default is racist- and this is exactly what you are doing right now- spreading your Racism on the good people of PW.
Prove you are not a racist, go spend all your money on sub-prime loans then I will correct the record.
Until then, you’re a racist.
Anyone know where Frank Raines is hanging out these days?
“Anyone know where Frank Raines is hanging out these days?”
BHO’s speed dial.
or Jim Johnson?
oh well, they meant well.
What does that mean? That they didn’t write enough mortgages for poor people? Define under-served.
Comment by Mr. Pink on 9/29 @ 8:54 am #
Pink,
I wonder what kind of screams would have echoed from the rafters had President Bush tried to have the Justice Department go after the untruths in The Path to 911?
The hew, cry, and gnashing of teeth, would have been deafening…
The troofers would have used it as proof, and the Dems would have screamed even loder, if that could be possible, about the fascism of Chimpy BusHitler!
“That is just your rightwing lizard mind succumbing to fear. Whereas I am more thoughtful, and would never stoop to breaking out such old tactics as ‘red baiting.’ How 1950s.â€Â
My question back is always:
“What do you call a witch hunt that keeps finding witches?”
But…but…but they’re AAA rated! Thanks, Fannie! Thanks, Freddie!
Why aren’t they worth shit now, thor?
Did Obama sue Citibank to force them into making loans? Yes or no.
You ever think of running for office, thor? You could be Speaker of the House one day if what I’m seeing on C-SPAN right now is any indication.
So nothing about prohibitions based on an inability to pay the loans back, based on type of employment, past credit history, etc?
The Great Society programs were trying to root out essentialist discrimination in lending practices. What that was later “re-imagined as” (and you can see my post for how this occurred) is turning all discrimination into essentialist discrimination in order to justify new lending policies: if blacks had bad credit, eg, it was because they were black and had been disadvantaged in accruing credit. Therefore, refusing loans based on bad credit meant refusing loans based on blackness.
The entire project became its opposite.
I’ve explained time and again how and why this happens. You and thor and Semilit can continue to pretend this isn’t the case — throwing around red herrings about the rich whites who speculated and tried to flip houses as the prices were being driven ever upward — but why housing prices were being driven upward, and why loans were so easy to come by, are the real story here, and have little to do with “deregulation,” and much to do with implicit government backing, accounting fraud, social engineering, and, of course, greed and ignorance.
Jeebus:
With “rights”, “lie”, and “fraud” interpretted through the same receiver-centric communicative paradigm there would be damn few necks left untrampled.
Nice vision of the future you’ve got there, Thor. Is Janet Reno your mama?
Oh, and forcing banks to write mortgages isn’t forcing banks to write mortgages. It’s “popping” the under-servers, and no one likes an under-server.
So anyway,
Pablo…
You basically agree with me that the argument is there and it’s up to McCain to present it to the people.
*?
Citigroup lost $27.7 Billion on high risk CDO’s. (Fortune Magazine, Vol. 158, No. 5, Sep 15th, 2008, pp. 70)
Collateralized debt obligations (CDO)
“…because the products are not priced by an open market, the risk associated with the securities is not priced into its cost and is not indicative of the extent of the risk to potential purchasers.â€Â
“A CDO investor takes a position in an entity that has defined risk and reward {sub-prime loan, AAA rated, FM/FM}, not directly in the underlying assets. Therefore, the investment is dependent on the quality of the metrics and assumptions used for defining the risk and reward of the tranches.
The issuer of the CDO, typically an investment bank, earns a commission at time of issue and earns management fees during the life of the CDO. An investment in a CDO is therefore an investment in the cash flows of the assets, and the promises and mathematical models of this intermediary, rather than a direct investment in the underlying collateral.â€Â
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation#cite_note-0)
“So if values deteriorate and if loans exceed values, then it is very difficult to sell the home, therefore foreclosure is almost inevitable. That is where we are today.†(http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1993)
The problem is those who created the sub-prime policies haven’t the slightest clue how it would impact the market. Economics classes should be mandatory, starting in elementary school, IMAO.
Private sub-prime pools used credit wraps to attain AAA ratings, dumbass. Those wraps were sold by insurance companies like, say, AIG, ever hear of ’em? FNMA agency paper was AAA while, like AAA corporate paper, their CMO’s were rated from A- to AAA based on tranches and other specifics of the pool backing it.
It’s OK to admit you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about but simply like to poke at ’em po-folks.
“Therefore, refusing loans based on bad credit meant refusing loans based on blackness.”
Shorter: “White = RACIST”
That’s the operating principle behind every act, every utterance, every argument put forward to defend FM/FM from regulation.
Can you say… “Reparations”? I thought you could.
I don’t know where you stand on Limbaugh, but his program this first hour today has been excerpts from multiple congressional hearings showing how regulators that dared sound alarms became the targets of Democrat defenders of FM/FM.
It’s just the record. Not much room for spin in their own words.
My 401K is down 22%. Since last Monday. How ’bout you?
NO BAILOUT. TTBO!
Victor @ #13, Yes, I agree.
Well, then go ahead and do it, thor-boi.
What does a community organizer do? Pressure banks to make bad loans
lmao@ thor.
You just excused the A- AAA credit rating of these investment that are now total shit.
LOL!
What regulation are you going to cite that would have made S&P/Moody’s tell the world the truth?
LOL, thor…..
I can’t believe you just posted that.
HAHAHA
Errrr….Victor @ #203
It may have never occurred to you but there are persons in low-income areas with high credit ratings. That’s why the banks got popped. That’s what red-lining was about. Persons who met the highest metrics couldn’t get loans in minority neighborhoods.
I can’t believe I have to point that out that.
Did you know in large urban environs there are actually high-income areas that are way-way predominantly minority? It’s where the Huxtables live.
really? we’re using sitcoms as examples now?
thor,
Have you checked you Euros toady? LOL!
Persons who met the highest metrics couldn’t get loans in minority neighborhoods.
Are you serious? Could you give a freakin link or some shred of proof other than your batshit crazy opinion where that happened anytime after 1960?
My 401K is down 22%. Since last Monday. How ’bout you?
Hey, cat food can be quite tasty as long as you can afford the premium brands.
We must all sacrifice in these difficult times, TMJ.
and what about deluxe apartments in the sky?
Don’t bother Mr. Pink. Asking for evidence fromm the anus only results in his opinion of you laced with pretty words.
Comment by Semanticleo on 9/29 @ 9:38 am #
Do you speak English?
Maggie – we all know the Jeffersons were mistaken as white on their loan application.. I mean George and Louise Jefferson is not Jamaal and Lakysha.
In thor’s world all bankers and morgage brokers are rich, fat, white guys who smoke cigars and look like Rush Limbaugh. Oh yeah they are ALL Republican too.
A-Duuuueeey. I can’t believe clueless dumbasses talk blabber much. How did I excuse anything, ya economic illiterate?
Mucho problems occur with the slicing up of mortgage pools and how to value these slices, especially after the originating credit wrap deteriorates. This topic would require a base understanding of mortgage-backed securities.
Do that r-winger mating call again, “duuuuusevantyelevantyuuuuuuey!!!11!!!.” I just love hearing that.
We can eat a 2200 calorie diet for eighteen months here without leaving the property. More actually, but I didn’t budget for more than twice the immediate family.
Can’t seem to find any government cheese in my supplies though. Funny, that.
OTT, you have a point, Heathcliff and Clair probably snuck by too.
I recommend junk silver which has an intrinsic value as opposed to paper money.
I ploughed up the lawn in the backyard for my victory garden. Took down the ornamental trees to make room for the goat shed.
If the neighbourhood association has problem they first have to make it through the moat and then the driveway gate, which has been electrified.
I’m not in that good of a position, TMJ, but we could probably go for a couple of months without leaving the property. More, if it rains regularly.
Damn that was funny.
First-
thor trying to sound smart by telling people that a credit rating is a function of packaging and not anything associated with, you know, credit worthiness.
Second-
thor getting tore up in the currency markets!
fucking moron.
So my final analysis:
The government via 1977 CRA determines that minorities should get subprime loans, subsequently expanded in the 1990’s. Subprime loans are absolutely toxic and wreak havoc on the market via overvalued assets and deceptive AAA rating. Individuals such as thor think that treating this symptomatically, i.e. superficially, will solve all of our ills rather than administering systemic chemotherapy.
The locus of this problem is the government, pure and simple. Throw the bums out.
I’ve a basket off eggs. One says Yen, one says Swiss Franc, one says Aussie dollar, one says Canadian dollar, one says British Pound, one says Mexican Peso, one says Euro and one says Duuuuuuh!
This is a freaky weird NPR program what looked at the sub-prime thinger from a racial perspective and latino or whatever.
Scroll to this one and listen… it’s a fairly short segment –
This dude was saying that half the subprimey loser people were hispanics and then he gave a different stat for blacks about how x% of their mortgages were subprimey. But he didn’t give numbers to where you could calculate the total percentage of subprimey loser people what were minorities, but it was the closest I’ve seen. None of it was their fault of course.
oops. link … for real this was interesting what I hadn’t heard before
Yeah thor,
US Treasury Notes are rated AAA because of how they are bundled! LOL….
Hysterical as always, but you reached new heights with your horse shit today.
lmao@ thor.
Fuckin’ ignorant douchebag, do you think my name is Fitch or Moodys, or Messrs Standard and Poors. Get an education, like Obama!
Credit worthiness? Well, dumbass, a pool of mortgages is filled with thousands of mortgages that originate from all over the country and that all meet a uniform set of credit criteria … Duuuuuuuhahoo! …, so that’s, uh, how the credit agencies assign a rating to it.
Is, like, something you’ve never heard of before?
Duuuuuu hoduuuuuh! Man that was a loud call.
No, treasuries are AAA because the government can print any amount of money it needs to when it’s time to pay you. They’re are direct obligations of the U.S. Treasury, and they aren’t bundled, ya ignorant clown.
Yup. And the Huxtables get mortgages, don’t they? So maybe it ain’t skin color that’s the issue….
I like punking on the lowest hanging fruit. Pablo, have you met Victor? Pablo, are you Victor?
“No, treasuries are AAA because the government can print any amount of money it needs to when it’s time to pay you.”
And FM/FM had the implicit promise of the ability to draw on treasury.
Or didn’t you know that?
Obviously the courts disagreed with you and you’re narrow racist views.
>>I recommend junk silver which has an intrinsic value as opposed to paper money.
Meh. Its the ‘we buy gold & jewelry’ places that spring up in a recession, so having a bagful of cheap rings is a good way to go, short term.
Me though, I’m keeping up with my guns as an investment. Some are collectible, most are user stuff, but they all tend to hold their value. If a new ban comes about, I’ll have a leg up.
“Obviously the courts disagreed with you and you’re narrow racist views.”
Like when?
Duuuuuuohuuuuuh! Another sperm whale-sized bellow.
GNMAs, like Treasuries, have an explicit guarantee. Look up the words “explicit” and “implicit” in the dictionary. That’s why CMOs traded with a corporate credit rating and not with the automatic de-facto AAA of a Treasury obligation.
I don’t know how this thread got off the First Amendment and on to the sub-prime fiasco, but Oliver Kamm has his take on it in the Times.
He’s a post-modern World Citizen kinda guy, where a thing means whatever he interprets it to mean, so Truth becomes an article of the Ministry of Truth – and as such is owned by the State, all legally in copyright like a Scientologist’s screed, and you’ll be found Guilty as pre-ordained.
The Dow is down 675 points! Yippeee!
The pillars are shaking. The skies are darkening. Chickens are coming home to roost!
Only 500 points, now! America is trading like the price of a barrel of light sweet crude!
McCain will have to suspend his campaign, or maybe drop out of the race altogether!
Where is Super J-Mac? He should be on the floor of the House prancing around with his feather boa.
Agency CMOs? or whole loan CMOs, Thor?
and again…
Whatever Thor. Show me an ostensible capitalist willing to eschew a profit-making opportunity based upon some flimsy sociological predicate and I’ll show you a democrat.
The reason you can couch your outrage in the politics of race is because while the connotations of the attendant language have remained unaltered, the denotations have been adjusted to allow the widest latitude for said outrage. This is the centerpiece of Jeff’s thesis about the linguistic turn. That you come here daily and read him and yet demonstrate by your comments exactly zero understanding of the actual substance of what is being debated here is unfortunate. It is unfortunate because you derail discussion without adding any substance to an opposing view. The strategy you employâ€â€whereby you pretend to loft and from that supposed altitude, fling imputations of racismâ€â€exposes you as an exemplar of that which Jeff is describing: mala fides.
Except you and your ideological brethren are not mala fides. Because in order to have bad faith, one must admit the possibility of fidelity in the first place.
That those of us who have a genuine claim to the mantle of classical liberalism and enlightenment thinking have not been able to keep up in the communications culture with the pretzel logic by which race has been transformed into a political cudgel does not speak to our supposed racism. That we are perhaps unsophisticated enough to believe in good faith and empiricism is one lesson you might take away from it. For you, a more useful lesson would come in recognizing how cheaply you can be had as an epistemic whore: your reward? You get to posture as “not a racist.”
Oh, and Hunter Thompson was only marginally interesting when he was doing his shtick. It’s even less interesting to watch your derivation.
[…] how many conservative pundits have worked to position themselves for the ticket’s failure by jumping ship on the Governor): first, it would reaffirm Palin as tough, unafraid, and able to take criticism while showing […]
At the time I loaded this post, there were 248 comments on it, but TrollHammer was hiding 36 of them because of teh trollishness.
I think I do know how this thread got redirected.
of the 5 stocks that are up in the S&P 500 today, 3 are P&G, Campbells, Molson Coors. Poulet paper, Soup and Beer. My faith in the system is restored.
Another is Biogen, don’t know what they make, but if its anti-diarhea meds, there is a god.
Poulet = Toilet. Mind is on lunch apparently.
Biogen,
MS drugs Avonex and Tysabri for some of their business.
At the time I loaded this post, there were 248 comments on it, but TrollHammer was hiding 36 of them because of teh trollishness.
What is this TrollHammer of which you speak, McGehee?
TrollHammer
Thanks to TrollHammer™ my comment-reading experience has improved immensely. Thanks TrollHammer™!
geoffb (JARAIP),
‘ngowa, Sheeba, as Tarzan would say.
The purpose of trolling is to derail comment threads into either a useless discussion or to a different topic that the troll wants to discuss.
If a troll uses TrollHammer to not see the results/responses to their trolling, then what is the use of trolling?
If a troll uses TrollHammer to not see the results/responses to their trolling, then what is the use of trolling?
Well, geoffb, trolls just aren’t very smart.
Get an education, like Obama!
Good idea, how much do Ayers and Raines charge for tutoring, you think?
, “then what is the use of trolling?”
What, indeed? But, you can be sure Spiehole won’t get it…
Spiehole
TrollHammered.
[…] PROTEIN WISDOM: “what really protects free speech here in the United States is the value we place upon it, […]
Spiehole
TrollHammered.
You really are dumb as a bag of rocks……………
We were obviously talking agency, were we not. Explain the origin of your confusion, please.
Show me a capitalist who doesn’t conjoin rates to risk. You’re selling Sister Palin’s bridge to nowhere, the one that doesn’t exist.
Your intertextual interpretation looks to be an odd mix of rudimentary reader response and a personal tribal deconstruction predicated upon primordial pusillanimous platitudes and proturbent prejudices promulgated sans deference to my personal philosophical posturing which, speaking self-referentially, is a specular mise en abyme meant to display Drost effects of myself within that chamber pot populism best described within Celine’s linguistic plague and symphonic cruelty. My thaumaturgical trickle down, in other words, is a completely severed proboscis incapable of paratrophic Hunter S. Thompson palimpsestic parody. You Dig.
No confusion. Just trying to plumb the depths of your cris de coeur to determine its purpose. I got what I was looking for, which is to say that you’re not interested in informing anyone about anything. I admit, I wholly expected as much.
As an aside to everyone else for whom there might be some interest, CMOs are part of the problem here inasmuch as they convolute the “ownership” of the debt and of course they’re one of the primary ways the GSEs committed self-immolation. CMOs, a thorough description of which thor elides so as to maintain his pomp, are simply financial vehicles that provide an investment opportunity and create liquidity. Thirty years is a long time for money to be locked up and, y’know, investors want money now. Plus, you could pay your mortgage early and the investor wouldn’t make the expected return. So CMOs (and REMICs) pool together large numbers of mortgages and sell shares of the pool (tranches) to investors. They can do all kinds of spiff things to allow speculators to roll the dice on prepayment of these mortgages or provide some degree of mitigation of prepayment risk.
Agency CMOs are pools of mortgages that meet certain criteria for size and credit-worthiness. By meeting these criteria, they qualify for GSE guarantees. So while agency CMOs don’t earn the “automatic de-facto AAA of a Treasury obligation” as thor says, the degree to which the regulatory and legislative environment vis-a-vis FNMA, FHLMC, et al can be described as enabling it is a difference without distinction. Granted, the risk that a whole bunch of borrowers might decide to pay their mortgages early isn’t insured against by the GSEs, but the risk that a whole bunch of borrowers might default is. Which, ain’t that the shit?
Simple. All I have to do is show you a capitalist operating in a regulatory climate that rewards said action.
“When buying and selling are regulated, the first thing to be bought and sold is the regulator.” – PJ O’Rourke
In other words, your narcissism is priapic, your discernment procrustean and your choice of forum a promethean failure (because, y’know, ain’t nothing but mouth-breathing pedestrians up in hereâ€â€oh wait, that’s your point; making waves in the septic pool.)
And hey, you jus’ go on an’ get all obsequious on Céline, Sartre, Derrida, and so onâ€â€the whole aperspectival lot. Witness David Foster Wallace’s recent specular mise en abyme, you histrionic prokaryote, and get intimate with your own dissolute trajectory. And do let us know when your pretense obtains to some creative outputâ€â€who doesn’t love scatology all tarted up as literature?
And for the record, I wish I knew you personally. Frankly, I think I’d adore you. I mean that sincerely.
Really now, as if it’s my job to pound information into the heads of socio-eco-class bigots and race-baiting finger pointers. No thanks. You’re hired.
When you purchased the early tranches at a decent discount you’d, as interest rates trended down, receive monthly chunks of principle at par, creating an enviable capital gain. An accounting tangle fer-sure, but you had to have the correct expectations going in.
Dear Lord, the esteemed host has stepped in!
Unfortunately, while his discussion of semantics and his fealty to the language are respected, his assertion is groundless. This is the LAW, Mr. Goldstein, and the definition of redlining is not some pie in the sky line plucked out of Barbara Lee’s decolletage.
Relining is defined, very basically, as private entities refusing to loan to qualified borrowers based upon the borrowers’ geographic location or protected class. To prove this one needs to show “disparate impact.” In other words, if the poor white guy and the poor black apply for a loan, then the good banker can deny them. If a qualified applicant applies and is rejected, then the qualified applicant must prove the banks’ policy broke the law by creating “a disparate impact.”
Wow, that must have gone the way of Bull Connor? Not really, Allstate settled a redlining case just two years ago (ALLSTATE CORPORATION v. DEHOYOS).
In this 2005 Georgia case (Hallmark Developers, Inc. v. Fulton County) developers of low income housing sued Fulton County Georgia because Fulton County didn’t want low income housing in that neighborhood. Guess what, the developer couldn’t show it was due to race and they lost. Most redlining suits nowadays involve zoning decisions, where nice rich people decide they don’t want scummy poor people living in their community.
Lastly, in this fine law review article, you can see how redlining and subprime works (Exploiting Race And Space: Concentrated Subprime Lending As Housing Discrimination
Link: hamilton-co.org/cinlawlib/intra/tocdetail.asp?NAV=2&Cat=Real%20Estate)
Redlining is real and not some silly idea Obama, the 32 year old associate, came up with to make banks “give bad loans to minorities.”
As reactionaries everywhere do, Pablo is arguing against settled 40 year old law. Without such laws, we’d still have economic Jim Crow and folks here wouldn’t be able to claim America is color-blind and the minorities just need to get over their bad selves.
Can’t wait to hear Pablo attack the Food and Drug Administration for injecting themselves into the free market.
P.S. The law review article is 53 pages, so set aside some time. I had time, because I am dead.
and you’re still ignoring how “fighting redlining” has been abused to make banks lend to people that weren’t qualified.