Maybe another democracy, however imperfect, other than Israel in the Middle East could lead to more moderation, possibly other democracies? Democracies that could serve as bulwarks against Al Qaeda-type of terrorist states?
Then in 2005-2006 came the increased violence from the Sunni insurgents against American kids, then the sectarian civil war between Sunnis and Shi’ites, with young Americans caught in the crossfire. My certainty in opposing the war and supporting a deadline for getting out re-emerged.
And then in early 2007 came the surge, which so many of us in the anti-war left of the Democratic Party predicted would be a failure, throwing good men and women and billions of dollars after futility. We were wrong.
The surge did, in fact, lead to a reduction of violence, confirmed by media on the ground as well as our military leaders.
It did allow the Shi’ite government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki in the last several months to show leadership by joining, if not leading, the military effort to clean out of Basra the masked Mahdi Army controlled by the anti-U.S. Shiite extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and in the Sadr City section of Baghdad he claimed to control.
This willingness by the Shi’ite–dominated Maliki government to move against the Sadr Shi’ite extremists won crucial credibility for the government among many Sunni leaders and Sunnis on the streets, who joined together with Shi’ites to turn against the Al Qaeda in Iraq and other Taliban–like extremists.
These are facts, not arguments.
Holy shit. Did he say that? I thought I read him say, “We were wrong.”
OMG! A Georgia Democrat voted for someone other than Obama during the primary! McGehee has the details.
Lanny Rodham Clinton is quite the energizer bunny.
The earth quit spinning for a moment.
That snap you heard was the seventh seal opening.
Jesus is coming; look busy.
Honest guy, I’m sure he’ll issue a retraction soon. Can’t have anyone breaking the Omerta.
Spurned as a whining Hillary shill by the Obama-nation, Lanny goes to one knee in hopes of a hug from a war mongering R-winger.
I say put the flame to the FLIP FLOPPER brand until it’s red hot. May that weenie bear the mark of the FLIP FLOPPER on his forehead forevermore.
bear = bare
Well, actually, if weren’t for the percieved improvements and the appearance of a reduction in violence, their initial judgements would be correct. Then there was the political debate to consider, and all those hypotheticals….
Nah, not wrong. Just nuance.
“bear=bare”, eh?
Eliminating the need to heat the branding iron and thus reducing anthropogenic local warming.
You are a true hero of the collective.
I just saw a pig go flying by, I’m sure it was a pig.
Not much Bill Clinton campaigning for O in the news. A trial balloon on one more run at convention time?
What’s up thor?
This is not the Lanny Davis that I knew. This one sees the big picture.
I’m more concerned about McCain “getting” it.
Some serious weasel-wording here.
Either McCain totally doesnt the Petraeus/Kilcullen model or he’s had another shortterm memory loss.
…totally doesn’t UNDERSTAND the Petraeus/Kilcullen model…
which is it, Dan?
apparently that rather glaring anti-factualism is why the Times rejected the op-ed.
Meme #3 – MCCAIN IS SENILE !!!!!!!!!!!11eleventy!!!
If only Jeff applied the same standard to you, queefcrest.
I love instant Karma. Nishi trying, attempting, begging to, willing to give hand jobs for, to make a point fucks up. Nice.
queef ? Dare I google that?
I think this is Hillary earning her debt repayment by helping Baracky pivot. What Baracky is learning I think is that his Congress doesn’t want to be accountable for the cowardly policies he’s bitterly clinging to, and I think they figure if they build the mountain Mohammad will get his hopey ass to it eventually.
Some serious weasel-wording here.
Either McCain totally doesnt the Petraeus/Kilcullen model or he’s had another shortterm memory loss.
It isn’t weasel wording, he is very clear in explaining he is using a different definition of surge than is implied by “the surge”.
Triangulation as usual. Positioning for whenever Obama implodes.
Um, “Quellcrist?”
The article you link contradicts the argument you’re trying to make. If you actually read the article, it shows that McCain understands the strategy of the Surge better than most people do. And there’s nothing “anti-factual” in it. There is some “anti-New York Times Approved Version of History,” but most of us understand the difference.
I’ll separate that, because McCain says it often. Most of us equate the surge with troop levels, but for McCain, it has always been about a strategy; to executive the strategy, more troops were needed.
Stop lying and misrepresenting, nishi, McCain knows exactly what he is saying, if you are too dense to understand it go find a forum more on your level.
Surely we owe the Iraqis who helped us, whose lives are in danger, immediate immigration rights to the U.S. Yet the shameful fact is that most are still not even close to having such rights.
Funny, aren’t these the “war criminals” the left wants put on trial?
This is, btw, total bullshit but watch it become a debate question, an op-ed or two and then an anti-mccain talking point.
The answer to Lanny is to let us win, then their lives won’t be in so much danger. Let them all move to Detroit, and um… well…at least there’s Starbucks.
Iraq is supposed to be McCain’s “killer-ap”.
This is a giant gaffe.
The Anbar Awakening was based on the concept of “trusted networks” and grass-roots organizing at the tribal level.
Increased troop levels, ie “surging” is simply antipathic to those goals.
For one thing, the sheiks needed to be percieved as independent actors. Increased american presense, which McCain equivocates with surging, is anathema to independent action by the sheiks.
McCain got it totally wrong.
Which is why the NYT didnt publish it.
It was counter-factual.
And embarassing I should think.
The question is not an either or for McCain, nishi. The question is whether you understand the history of the place and the meaning of the change in strategy called ‘the surge’. Your devotion to whatever it is that is in your mind as representing the “Petraeus /Killcullen” model is sweet and all, but I’d wager that if you were to ask them, they’d side with McCain’s understanding of the sequence of events and definitions of the change in strategy as against yours.
McCain has no worries as to his grasp of the events and their implications. You, on the other hand, need to hit the books.
Doesn’t McCain have handlers that fact his stuff?
Are they also that uninformed and ignorant?
It is you that is ignorant nishi, not McCain. Try harder.
Your side lost in Iraq, nishidiot.
Get used to it.
I have read COIN, Kilcullens original paper and everything I could find the Anbar model.
Increased troop levels is no part of it, and would be detrimental to progress in turning the Sunnis.
It is based on acculturation and social network theory.
Why can’t you just say McCain was W. R. O. N. G. ?
Was the left fighting in Iraq?
and anyways they are not my side.
you are all cudlips as far as i can tell.
I don’t think McCain is ignorant.
I think he has age-correlated shortterm memory loss.
Increased troop levels, ie “surgingâ€Â
That is not how McCain is defining the surge:
“Prior to that they had been going into places, killing people or not killing people, and then withdrawing. And the new counter-insurgency, the surge, entailed going in and clearing and holding, which Colonel McFarland had already started doing. And then of course, later on, there were additional troops, and General Petraeus said that the surge would not have worked, and the Anbar Awakening would not have taken place, successfully, if they hadn’t had an increase in the number of troops.”
Increased troop levels, and moving into problem areas and establishing a presence, is what lead to “trusted networks†and grass-roots organizing at the tribal level”. According to the people that were over there, none of whom are super-geniuses, granted.
But I do think it is amazing that some aide didn’t proof that op-ed for content.
Was the left fighting in Iraq?
I thought you were a “conservative”, nishidiot, or was that last week?
You lost. Your Messiah was wrong. Get used to it.
who poked the dung beetle?
General Petraeus said that the surge would not have worked, and the Anbar Awakening would not have taken place, successfully, if they hadn’t had an increase in the number of troops.
Increased troop levels is no part of it, and would be detrimental to progress in turning the Sunnis.
The troop surge was in Bagdad, not Anbar. The strategy of the surge was to “clear and hold”, instead of withdraw.
mccain–“…an increase in the number of troops…”
once again, that is perfectly antipathic to the concept of trusted networks and armed social work.
there was not an increase in the number of troops in Anbar.
that was Baghdad.
McCain forgot.
Your Messiah was wrong.
Oh, and McCain is going to eat him alive on that issue, no matter how hard the NYT tries to censor him.
once again
Once again, you prove yourself to be an illiterate liar.
Why can’t you just admit it?
McCain forgets sometimes.
If that is ok with you, fine vote for him.
But don’t try to say it doesn’t happen.
They must obscure the fact the surge worked and Obama was wrong. If they do not do that they can not control the Narrative and help make their community organizer look presidential. This is along the same lines of denigrating McCain’s war service, it is just a means to make their guy look like less of a douchebag.
1) I doubt that.
2) What you did read, you didn’t understand. I know this because you have never shown any ability to understand anything.
Why can’t you just admit it?
lmfao.
there was not an increase in the number of troops in Anbar.
Liar.
And in Anbar Province, where al Qaeda terrorists have gathered and local forces have begun showing a willingness to fight them, we’re sending an additional 4,000 United States Marines, with orders to find the terrorists and clear them out. (Applause.) We didn’t drive al Qaeda out of their safe haven in Afghanistan only to let them set up a new safe haven in a free Iraq.
SBP, once again, there was increase in troop levels in Anbar.
Just a change in what the troops were doing.
McCain forgets sometimes.
Funny, it seems like it’s Obama (and you) who can’t remember their positions from one week to the next, not McCain.
You lost, nishi. Get used to it.
Baracky is wrong to think the Anbar Awakening thingy was a factor coequal to the stabilization of Baghdad in the success in Iraq. Baghdad was priority #1 for the surge. Anbar had already been written off by Baracky… the Wakey thing was just more woeful ohnoes sectarian violence until it was expressed as hey, can we have some surge please we think that’s a great policy for reals. And they got some surge and they all lived happily ever after.
You are a fucking blathering imbecile, as far as I can tell.
I think we all need new names, too.
again, sbp, that was 2007.
that was a surge, which didn’t work, which totally uncorrelated with success of the Anbar model.
SBP, once again, there was increase in troop levels in Anbar.
The troop surge was in Bagdad, not Anbar.
Now you can’t even remember what you said from one post to the next.
Better have yourself checked for early-onset, hunnie.
My favorite part was when we killed all the Al Qaeda people that weren’t there before we invaded cause they were somewhere else where we couldn’t kill them but they’re dead now and don’t they feel stupid.
Is nishi’s argument today that we should not in any way credit our military with the success of the surge? You are a real patriot nishi.
Did you forget what you wrote in a matter of minutes?
Nishi, comment #39:
Nishi, comment #47:
Given her general illiteracy, it’s possible one or the other has an extra or a missing word. But I doubt it; she’s just so dishonest she’ll say anything she thinks will make her point.
i think either McCain doesn’t understand Petraeus’ flagship program, or he forgot.
which is more acceptable?
again, sbp, that was 2007.
Translation: “I’ve been caught in a lie yet again, so now I’m going to start dissembling”.
Have a nice day, hunnie.
No, increased troop levels weren’t part of the AA – increased troop levels allowed the AA to happen by giving them some breathing room.
Of course, doing political grandstanding and increased foreign aid whilst running away would’ve done the same thing, I’m sure. Just like when, if you get robbed, you should throw your money on the ground and run away, because then robbers quit robbing people now that they got money and stuff.
nishit suffers from early onset stooopidity.
Two digit /spit
Why do these people rant against any claim at victory or success in Iraq? Seriously, it is like pulling teeth to get them to even admit the surge worked, now it wasn’t us that succeeded it was Iran or tribal sheiks. Pull your head out your ass please.
I don’t think McCain is ignorant.
I think he has age-correlated shortterm memory loss.
AGEIST!!!11!!
but you should totally vote for the guy that thinks there’s 57 states! am I right nishfong?
Is nishi’s argument today that we should not in any way credit our military with the success of the surge?
That’s the latest pravda upgrade that she’s had installed by Obama headquarters.
She’s a fucking illiterate parrot.
Baracky bet on the Al Qaeda people driving the US out of Iraq and then he saw the surge coming to ruin his whole narrative and he tried to stop it. He tried and tried, begged and cried. But Baracky could not stop the surge and Iraq was saved and Baracky’s insurgent friends died screaming. Baracky said curses and it would have worked too if it weren’t for your meddling surge.
the 4,000 troops SBP cites went to Anbar in 2006.
unrelated to the success of the Anbar model.
like i said, Iraq is supposed to McCain’s “killer app”.
He really can’t afford to percieved as confused about it.
I told you before feets, O! is adapting to changes.
Even GW is advocating meeting with the mullahs now.
A CinC that can adapt to changing circumstances on the ground and changing data is infitely preferrable to an inflexible zealot like Kos.
Zealots always loose.
;)
Yes, you do.
um, when did the AA begin? dumbass.
the 4,000 troops SBP cites went to Anbar in 2006.
Liar.
Bush didn’t even announce the plan until his SOTU address in 2007.
Once again, with feeling. It is not McCain who is confused. It is you who are ignorant of the facts who is confused and projecting your own confusion on someone else.
just answer the question Proteins.
Did McCain forget or does he not understand the Petraeus model?
It’s binary, it has to be one or the other.
But Baracky does not look very flexible when he says he still would have opposed the surge. But now we’re off to surge in Afghanistan cause it’s what all the cool kids are doing.
No nishi, neither of your projections is the case with regard to McCain. You are simply wrong.
I think McCain thinks Petraeus has a very good grasp of the McCain model. You have to know how McCain thinks.
Lanny is only saying this, and saying this now, precisely because he has so little to lose and so much to gain. Sure he’ll tell you he was wrong, he’ll never tell you (i>why he was wrong.
You think “understanding” is binary?
Whatever, liebot.
and look, i told you guys months ago that O! would change his position on Iraq when he was briefed.
Quite simply, Iraq is working.
No political leader would ignore those facts an throw that away.
that was a surge, which didn’t work, which totally uncorrelated with success of the Anbar model.
It doesn’t make any sense, but maybe we could give some partial credit for spelling. Trying to look on the bright side, here.
No, it doesn’t. You could be the one who has it all wrong.
Which is the way the smart money bets, Ms. “All Fetuses start XX and change to XY”.
I’m all for new names.
and look, i told you guys months ago that O! would change his position on Iraq when he was briefed.
He hasn’t changed his position, dumbass. He told Katie Couric he was still opposed to the “surge” even if it worked.
SBP, is McCain’s understanding of the Petraeus model “fuzzy” then?
Is that a desireable trait in a CinC?
Actually, he hasn’t changed his position. He’s simply changed what he’s saying while also saying he was right anyway.
He really can’t afford to percieved as confused about it.
Good thing its only people with the brains of nishis who could possibly convince themselves of that.
As for the “killer ap” silliness – time ain’t run out yet, and won’t until November.
Nishi did you change the direction of your prayer rug this morning to face Obama? He is to the north-east slightly today.
Baracky is still behind the curve. He needs to express what the U.S. interests in Iraq are I think. Why is victory important now Baracky when it wasn’t before?
It’s your understanding that’s flawed. Are you incapable of realizing that, cudlips?
SBP, is McCain’s understanding of the Petraeus model “fuzzy†then?
You’re the one who doesn’t understand.
Hint: that would be because you are an illiterate liar.
most definitely. oh and did we ever get support for the druze claim from the other day?
Just for reading challenged, the Petreaus/Kilcullen model[which worked in Anbar] HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH INCREASED TROOP LEVELS WHICH MCCAIN DEFINES AS “SURGING”.
And in fact, increased troop levels would be counter-productive to social network theory in that “surging” is a top-down, and not a bottom-up strategy.
Imposing control from outside the network.
Like i said.
He forgot.
Like he forgot the difference between the Sunni and the Shi’ia.
Why does Nishi remind me of the idiots in Independance Day that held up welcome signs on the rooftops waiting for the aliens to come kill them?
Nishi, you forgot what you wrote within three minutes. What does that say about you?
Just for reading challenged
There’s a laugh.
He forgot.
No, you “forgot”.
You claimed that the Druze were Christians.
They aren’t.
“…First of all, a surge is really a counter-insurgency strategy,” McCain said….”
Repeating you inaccuracies and lies does not make them any less wrong, nishit.
here is another binary – Is nishit a liar, or just woefully ignorant. It can only be one or the other. There are no other alternatives.
*COUGH*BULLSHIT*COUGH*
You really don’t get it, do you? You’re the one with the misunderstanding.
Nishi, bring more stupid. This could be quite entertaining.
“…Most of us equate the surge with troop levels, but for McCain, it has always been about a strategy…”
Swisscakerolls are individually wrapped so you either have to unwrap all the ones you want to eat before you sit down to watch tv or whatever or unwrap them as you go. You either say hey I’m gonna eat five of these here swisscakerolls and then commit or you say okay I’ll have one okay maybe another okay maybe another. McCain is an all in kind of guy I think. Baracky is a dainty little thing that does a lot of oh I really shouldn’t but then goes ahead if he sees people aren’t being too judgey. Cowardly little fella he is which is ironic cause I bet he has more actual swisscakeroll experience from smoking all that pot.
I think she’s exhausted the Strategic Stupid Reserve.
Give it up boys. Once nishi is set on her “McCain is a senile coot” path, nothing short of a nuclear weapon will deter her.
The fact is that the foundation for both the Anwar awakening and the Baghdad security sweep was troop presence. That is what is meant by clear and hold. The sheiks were merely looking to see who the strongest tribe would be and, once assured that the US Military was committed to being that strongest tribe by having their troops both holding and actively clearing both the worst insurgents and al qaeda then the tribes fealt free to kill, capture, clear and point out large pockets of the thugs when they didn’t feel capable of dealing with the numbers.
Let’s also remember that al qaeda pretty much brought this on themselves, not just for the horrible attacks on fellow muslims rather than “the occupier” but also by being big ass bullies to the local sheiks, demanding inter-marraiges and sharia along with other brutally configured rules and killing any who denied them their demands. The residents of Anwar quickly learned that while the jihadist thugs had a certain cruel effectiveness in causing casualties to women and children, both their ability to govern and their fighting skills against professional soldiers were lacking. Tribespeople will bow their heads and bend the knee to the strongest leaders and once an alternative was presented and believed (you know due to the troops that actually stayed in Anbar and elsewhere) then the jihadists were toast. They had no real foundation of support just as the Taliban had none in Afghanistan.
Leave military matters to the adults, matoko.
Maybe Senator McCain should use the more nuanced approach, like O! did regarding an undivided Jerusalem, by saying it was poorly phrased.
Oh, and McCain has it exactly right and both you and Obama have it exactly wrong.
“…Colonel McFarland, in Anbar province, McCain said, “had already initiated that strategy in Ramadi by going in and clearing and holding in certain places. That is a counter-insurgency. And he told me at that time that he believed that that strategy, which is quote the surge,…”
Why can’t you just admit it?
McCain forgets sometimes.
If that is ok with you, fine vote for him.
But don’t try to say it doesn’t happen.
Exactly, ‘con. Everybody forgets sometimes.
Like the time you forgot to reattatch those amputated arms to the proper sides of the amputee.
Oh, wait. You did that on purpose.
Nevermind.
“…And the new counter-insurgency, the surge, entailed going in and clearing and holding, which Colonel McFarland had already started doing. And then of course, later on, there were additional troops, and General Petraeus said that the surge would not have worked, and the Anbar Awakening would not have taken place, successfully, if they hadn’t had an increase in the number of troops.”
Most Druze are christians.
thats the truth.
Do you know Kuntar’s personal faith?
BJTex, i guess im the only one here that has read COIN and Kilcullen’s original reports.
And certainly it seems like McCain has not read those sources.
Anbar worked because of trusted networks, not strong horse theory.
Also, twinkies.
“…”So I’m not sure frankly that people really understand that a surge is part of counter-insurgency strategy which means going in, clearing, holding, building a better life, providing services to the people. And then clearly a part of that, an important part of it, was additional troops to help insure the safety of the sheiks, to gain control of Ramadi, which was a very bloody fight, and then the surge would continue to succeed as a counter-insurgency.”
All of the above quotes are from the Ambinder piece nishi linked at post 12. And then went on to misconstrue in order to smear McCain with “forgetting”. What trash.
“General Petraeus said that the surge would not have worked, and the Anbar Awakening would not have taken place, successfully, if they hadn’t had an increase in the number of troops.â€Â
That is not Petraeus speaking now is it?
It is McCain trying to cover up a gaffe.
I’d be interested in Petraeus answering a question on Anbar and the Surge.
McCain is obviously confused.
Trusted Networks??? Is that the new Facebook?
whatever. oh, wait, you’re just mangling and lying as usual. okay. still no actual source for your claims. liar.
and BJTex, your #104 sounds about right, but there aren’t any ALLCAP words, so, um, I’m not sure I can really accept it. perhaps if you could post it again. maybe slightly changed.
Another downside of the Swisscakerolls as they compare to Ho Ho’s (no racism intended) is that they sit on a thin cardboard palette. If you don’t regulate your ambient temperature, some of the milk chocolate coating can stick to the palette and leave you with a scarred Swisscakeroll. I liken it to an impressionable young person hearing an Obama speech out of context. They get a little of his milk chocolaty goodness stuck on them, but what’s left is a big gash in what’s really important. Or something like that.
I saw Petraeus say precisely that under oath before the Senate Armed Services committee, you twerp. You want to accuse McCain, on no evidence, of attempting to cover over something that doesn’t exist. Can you get any lower?
Most Druze are christians.
thats the truth.
You are a liar.
End of discussion.
Quellcrist Falconer? Sounds like a D-list villain from ‘Venture Brothers.’
Alfred (knocks on door): Master Wayne? Commissioner Gorden phoned, and it appears the Quellcrist Falconer has knocked over the condom display at Walmart. He’d like Batman to do something.
Wayne/Batman: [sigh] Goddamnit. You tell Gordon I said from now on he can call the Wonder Twins or Apache Chief with this kinda shit. I’m busy. Now go make me a sandwich.
Sdferr, that just sounds like weaselword coverup to me.
The Petreaus model has nothing to do with increased troop numbers, it has to do with changed troop mission.
A surge is a counter-insurgency?
Bullshit.
Doublespeak to cover up a gaffe.
You have to wonder….how many Shortterm Memory Loss episodes has team mccain been able to cover for….
;)
and BJTex, your #104 sounds about right, but there aren’t any ALLCAP words, so, um, I’m not sure I can really accept it. perhaps if you could post it again. maybe slightly changed.
Try the BOLD tags, they emphasize what is acceptable!
McCain lacks not for courage.
CLEAR AND HOLD!!111eleventy!!!111!!!
How’s that, Maggie?
No need to respond to someone who quotes nothing, lies about Christians and Druzes, lies about “the surge” and provides no sourcing whatsoever that supplies any basis for the lies.
LARS LARS PANTS ON FARS! (bonus all caps)
For example, McCain seems to be entirely ignorant ofthis
That would be slander in most contexts, but since McCain is a politician you are free to tell as many lies as often as you wish. No one will respect you for it though. Were I you, I would look to husbanding as much credibility as I could around here, since your credibility is so low to begin with on such unfortunate history, and give up with the smearing and outright lies. But then, it’s your choice.
Doublespeak to cover up a gaffe.
But it’s alright for O! to use doublespeak with regards to an undivided Jerusalem!
A surge is a counter-insurgency?
Bullshit.
Tell it to General Petraeus.
As a result, General Casey requested additional forces to
enable the Coalition to accomplish these tasks, and those forces began to flow in January.
In the ensuing months, our forces and our Iraqi counterparts have focused on improving security,
especially in Baghdad and the areas around it, wresting sanctuaries from Al Qaeda control, and
disrupting the efforts of the Iranian-supported militia extremists. We have employed
counterinsurgency practices that underscore the importance of units living among the people they
are securing, and accordingly, our forces have established dozens of joint security stations and
patrol bases manned by Coalition and Iraqi forces in Baghdad and in other areas across Iraq.
In mid-June, with all the surge brigades in place, we launched a series of offensive operations
focused on: expanding the gains achieved in the preceding months in Anbar Province; clearing
Baqubah, several key Baghdad neighborhoods, the remaining sanctuaries in Anbar Province, and
important areas in the so-called “belts†around Baghdad; and pursuing Al Qaeda in the Diyala
River Valley and several other areas.
Looks like Petraeus is confused about the presence of troops in Al Anbar, too.
Liebot.
“Doublespeak to cover up a gaffe.
But it’s alright for O! to use doublespeak with regards to an undivided Jerusalem!”
Are you therefore conceding the false assertion of ‘coverup of a gaffe’?
Why bother with the tu quoque when the assertion is false to begin with?
it’s the cigs, happy, not the swisscakes, that bother me.
holy-molly, Thor makes an appearance. ’bout time.
I agree any nitwit that appears anywhere on a propagandistic asswipe like Foxy and Friends deserves to be made into a cartoon feature for Saturday morning kiddies. The dregs of the Democratic Party and that other Party do occasionally rise to the surface of the septic system. That septic system is peopled by people like the Carville couple and O’Reilly and Pukecannon especially.
Did i piss on the Democratic party? You betchya! I just vote Democratic as the NeoFascist party of discipline isn’t some Whig party anymore nor is it the Democratic one either.
In fact, I never thought Bush’s Iraq policies were the worst thing he’s done, maybe some good there. It’s everything else he’s done that makes him near the worst president. Especially his “energy policies”, “education policies”, “environmental policies”, and especially his “tax policies”. Maybe Iraq might be the one thing he was right in the end….except he botched the whole job with that going in w/o planning and expecting the Iraqis to have a lovefest after we killed about a half million of them. And expecting to win wars while cutting taxes isn’t feasible.
howso? how does increasing troop numbers not help in population centric tactics?
I think nishi believes that all that is required to build a trusted network is a little fairy dust and perhaps a dash of Obama smile. The idea that you have earn trust by showing your willingness to take and keep all of the land seems never to enter the dear little one’s mind. The idea that the only way to do that is to have enough troops seems to have been pushed out by brainpower needed to believe in the glorious military capability of rainbow maned flying unicorns.
nishi petitioning Jeff to post on Jefferson’s intentionalism in 5,4,3…
I don;t know about doublespeak but Baracky doesn’t come across as a particularly honest person I don’t think. I think he would lie about stuff so he would look better. He seems really frantic about winning the presidency. Like when you just get out of college and you apply for your dream job and you get all anxious cause they haven’t called.
nishi, like Obama is the hard candy in the dish on the tables in the waiting rooms across america. It’s there to say “We appreciate you!” But to even the most chronic of sweet toothers, it says “This, technically, is a treat. But it’s not new. It’s been here since the dawn of time. But it’s still good. Trust us. Help us get rid of this shit.”
Part of the mission is to protect people from harm. If you don’t have enough troops to cover the ground included in the mission, you ask for more troops. It isn’t difficult to understand, except for the likes of nishi, who seems to enjoy being confused at times.
Of course arguing with her on who has more military knowhow in an Obama vs McCain match up is akin to arguing with your 4 year old about the benefits of pb&j sandwiches for the workings of the dvd player.
Again, the “Surge” was Baghdad, not Anbar.
McCain simply forgot and is trying to cover up gaffing his “killer app”.
The Anbar model involved a change in troop FUNCTION, not in troop LEVEL.
If you read Kilcullen, increased troop level is DETRIMENTAL to fostering trusted networks.
Again, the “Surge†was Baghdad, not Anbar.
Again: you are a clumsy liar.
Really nishi, keep it up, you’re doing so well with that line, er, I meant, lie.
oh how I miss the days of arguing with Timmy about how just because the surge wouldn’t hit the magic number of “x” troops per 1,000 people it could still work because it was more about their strategy changing. so I guess nishfong is good for something
and your still ignoring that that FUNCTION change was possible because of an increase in troop numbers. dumbass.
Aren’t u at all curious as to how many times this has happened and the coverup has been successful?
And why team mccain didn’t proof for content on Mccains op-ed?
Pretty shabby set of advisors McCain has.
Damn you are thick.
That has been a problem with Bush too….he always valued loyalty over talent.
she’s just griefing, guys.
yeah, yeah. well, and O! didn’t unnerstand the doctrine at all, but whatevs, he’s pretty.
Your griefing skills are lacking on this one nishi, your claims have to be at least plausible. In this case there is no reasonable doubt, just easily identifiable lies.
Obama was wrong on the surge, but it probably won’t cost him anything.
It’s a hobby, huh, al?
and your still ignoring that that FUNCTION change was possible because of an increase in troop numbers. dumbass.
tout meme, “surging” was never part of the Anbar model.
McCain forgot and confused Anbar with Baghdad, just like he confused sunni with shi’ia.
, “surging†was never part of the Anbar model.
Petraeus disagrees, liebot.
4000 marines were added to Anbar. dumbass.
Kilcullen paper, right on top:
Matoko, what is the difference between planning, scenario and operations?
It’s a hobby, huh, al?
I guess. But at least with fly-fishing, you end up with something to show for it.
“oh how I miss the days of arguing with Timmy”…
That’s beneath you. Timmy can only say, ‘Timmah’ in various inflections. You should argue with Jimmy.
In fact you should get Jimmy and Timmy to argue.
CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!
The Anbar model involved a change in troop FUNCTION, not in troop LEVEL.
Actually, it was neither. I suppose I could do the standard wikipedia linky thingies, but why…? I really should probly do something over here.
L8r, sk8ters
DO NOT connect queefcrest to the Wonder that is Venture Bros.
Why bother with the tu quoque when the assertion is false to begin with?
Agreed, it was foolish.
Anbar wasn’t as crucial as Baracky thinks anyway. If the surge worked in Baghdad which it did then it was always the plan to move out into the hinterlands. Baracky just makes a big deal out of Anbar cause it involved community organizing and it’s all he knows really. Kind of ironic that it was community organizers that defeated his insurgent pals. That has to sting.
4000 marines were added to Anbar. dumbass.
and that didnt work, and it wasn’t part of “the Surge” McCain referenced anyways.
Surely McCain has been briefed on all of this.
But he said…
Shortterm Memory Loss is the only plausible explanation.
Yeah, alppucino, like the pictures of the trout she caught and released “For Teh Children”.
*sigh* the marines were added and stategy changed around the same time, but THERE’S NO CONNECTION!!! sure.
That’s just nitpicky really.
the Surge had nothing to do with Anbar.
the Surge was in Baghdad, the one that congress voted on, that Obama voted against.
Which is it?
Does McCain think the Surge went down in Anbar?
Does he think Baghdad is IN Anbar province?
He sounds very confused.
at least he knows what committees he’s on. and how many states there are.
read this again plz
Because of the Surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it[the Surge] began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that’s just a matter of history.
McCain advocated the successful policy while Baracky was embracing a humiliating and consequential defeat. I don’t think Baracky is very patriotic.
intentionalism, anyone?
lol
I wonder if O!’s gaffes are connected to his history of drug use…
(No, not really. I think he’s a self-aggrandizing moron, confident that the press won’t highlight his gaffes. Much like Al “Who Are These People?” Gore not recognizing the Founding Fathers.)
No nishi. He is not confused. He understands what happened, as he was often there to witness it for himself, unlike you and your preferred candidate Barack Obama. Wake up, smell the coffee. You don’t know what it is you need to know.
um, your editing the McCain quote? liar.
intentionalism, anyone?
Yes, you are apparently intentionally a dumm ass.
Oh the wheels on the bus go round and round
round and round
round and round
Oh the wheels on the bus go round and round
all through the day.
Cudlips.
Baracky’s in Germany anyway while all those poor people in Texas are getting rained on really hard. He just doesn’t care about regular Americans.
maggie, this is supposed to be McCain’s “killer app”, the thing he can beat O! with cuz he knows it stone cold perfect.
that is a simply horrible gaffe.
maggie, aural transcript.
the Surge they are talking about is the one voted on by congress….see the context.
i think i got mccains intentionalism correct.
;)
Your bracketed “the surge” is a falsehood, plain and simple. He intended Col MacFarland’s protection of the handful of Anbari Sunni’s who were willing, nay, insistant, on standing up to Al Qaeda.
I’m not feeling the horrible gaffe. He was talking to Katie Couric so he was probably trying to distill a complex subject to where she could understand. She gets way bad crinkly nose a lot. He’s a very gracious person.
Nishi could you please link to the DailyKos diary which is giving you this information? I would really love to read it thanks.
The Anbar model involved a change in troop FUNCTION, not in troop LEVEL.
WHICH IS WHY MCCAIN SAID THIS IN THE PIECE YOU FIRST FUCKING LINKED:
“Prior to that they had been going into places, killing people or not killing people, and then withdrawing. And the new counter-insurgency, the surge, entailed going in and clearing and holding, which Colonel McFarland had already started doing. And then of course, later on, there were additional troops, and General Petraeus said that the surge would not have worked, and the Anbar Awakening would not have taken place, successfully, if they hadn’t had an increase in the number of troops.â€Â
You are a functionally illiterate, borderline retard.
Why can’t you just admit it?
It won’t rain in Obama’s America. Unless you need it to, in which case it will only rain on your flowers. On the other hand, one way to employ the legions of new
indentured servantsvolunteers is to have them standing around on street corners with umbrellas, just in case.May I keep you dry ma’am?
Why yes, thank you dear that would be nice.
Yuengling! Yay!
like your definition of “secular”? or the druze(still no source for your claim) or the number of Supreme Court Justices? yeah, it’s about as right as everything else you spew. which is to say, not at all.
nishinutbag can’t pull here head out of her ass. It is quite obvious that super glue is a very effective adhesive, and apparently affects logic in a negative way.
Did she really say the Druze were Christians?
You can’t get anyone’s intent correctly when you start out with the intent to misunderstand them, except accidentally, on account of your own incoherence and inability to backtrack your falsehoods properly. That will only happen infrequently though, due to the persistence of assumption feedback.
ok, ill take the bracket out…reads the same.
“Because of the Surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that’s just a matter of history.”
sry, McCain is referring to the Surge, the one voted on by congress, the one in Baghdad, the one O! voted against.
context.
are you willing to have a CinC that has Shortterm Memory Loss?
i see no other plausible explanation.
those are mccain’s own words.
history.
repeatedly. even after others quoted some sources.
so what is Obama’s excuse? I’m just curious
sry, McCain is referring to the Surge, the one voted on by congress, the one in Baghdad…
Which of course is why he keeps referring to Anbar.
No, Quellcrist, the Surge,took advantage
of the “Anbar Awakening” based on the experience of McMaster carrying out similar operations in Tell A Far, Petraeus’s own in Mosul, Mirabile’s early work in Ar-Ramadi, years before.
This was all happening when the media was focusing on the “Civil War” that wasn’t. Both Maliki and Obama, for their own petty sectarian reasons opposed the surge, and needless to say
similarly were ‘skeptical’ about the
works of Abu Sittar, who had to be murdered by jihadists, not unlike Massoud,; before his contribution was
appreciated, by most. Petraeus’s work is in keeping with his understanding of the tradition of counterinsurgency from the outset. The Special Forces “A” teams whose work was observed by the late Robin Moore, in “Green Berets”. The “Cheiu Hoi” Vietcong defector program, US work in El Salvador in the 80s, that liberals still won’t acknowledge.
For those not in the know, Quellcrist Falconer, is the name of an anarchist
terrorist, nee freedom fighter, who carried out a ruthless nihilistic
‘insurgency’ reminiscent of the Joker on a planet called Harlan’s World, in a series of far future sci fi noir books
by Brit Richard Morgan. Think AQ fused
with the Weatherman and the Unabomber,
“squared to eleventy” This UN dominated
universe, where special genetically enhanced commandos called “Envoys” are teleported and downloaded in cloned bodies are his take on what he considers
“neo-colonial police actions” Morgan, like most of the intelligentsia,soaking in the pidgen marxism of Pilger,Chomsky,
et al, think the war on terror is a fraud, that outfits like AQ are about the fighting for the poor, all that claptrap. Takeshi kovacs, is one of the “envoys” turned private eye, whose handle I adopted when I saw how easy
it is for the same poster, to ‘sock
puppet, ala Greenwald.
The Druze (Arabic: درزي, derzÄ« or durzÄ«, plural دروز, durÅ«z; Hebrew: דרוזי×Â‎, Druzim; also transliterated Druz or Druse) are a religious community found primarily in Lebanon, Israel and Syria whose traditional religion is said to have begun as an offshoot of the Ismaili sect of Islam, but is unique in its incorporation of Gnostic, neo-Platonic, pagan and other philosophies. Because of such incorporation, most scholars label the Druze as a non-Muslim sect, even though some Druze identify themselves as Muslims.[6]
very interesting
sorta. I mean, it’s in response to O!s claim that the Anbar thing just happened (because???) and would have spread and I think McCain is saying that we took what we learned in Anbar and applied it in the larger “surge” thing in Baghdad.
B Moes that is just McCain weaselwording in Ambinder to cover his gaffe.
/sigh
read it again.
“Because of the Surge we were able to go out and protect that sheik and others. And it began the Anbar awakening. I mean, that’s just a matter of history.”
McCain goofed his killer app, its that SIMPLE.
No, McCain is using a different definition of surge than “The Surge”, he is talking about a change in strategy rather than a simple surge in numbers, and you can’t comprehend it.
Because you are just that SIMPLE.
And refuse, with intent, to understand.
Well. Either way. Let’s just hope the surge works.
Yes, “Banned” and when were working in Syria, that’s an important factor.Waleed
Jumblatt, is also a Druze, and he’s sometimes an ally, although he inadver-tently brokered a settlement that
empowered Hezbollah since 2005. Kuntar, was a Druze too, that doesn’t mean he can’t be a . . .
Is it like an impasse on cake, hf, or is there a fact of the matter in this case?
However that may be, like you said, let’s hope the surge [into Afghanistan] works as well as the first one has.
Oh, and did I mention I hate fireants? Cause I meant to. Hate them.
Uh, aren’t “takeshi kovacs” and “quellchrist falconer” the same person? I think we’re into some major Crazy here, folks.
“No, McCain is using a different definition of surge than “The Surgeâ€Â, he is talking about a change in strategy rather than a simple surge in numbers”
Against my better judgment, I read this whole thread and became completely confused about the scope and meaning of “surge.” That helps clear it up.
Against my better judgment, I read this whole thread and became completely confused about the scope and meaning of “surge.†That helps clear it up.
Does that mean you’ll be returning to the DU for the celebration of the 1000th post on impeach Bush?
Where’s the Druze stuff?
I’m not asking for me, I’m asking for Karl’s dad.
um, post about UN a few days ago. I’d search, but i’m at “w*rk” ;D
“Swisscakerolls are individually wrapped so you either have to unwrap …”
Goddammit Feets! Now you’ve got me craving swiss cake rolls.. I’m going to have to score some before I can even enjoy my morning coffee.. uh.. I mean ‘caffe’.. D’ya ever try to find Lil Debbies in downtown Seattle? This may take awhile..
Note to Rob Crawford: “aren’t “takeshi kovacs†and “quellchrist falconer†the same person?”
Father Damien Karras: I think it might be helpful if I gave you some background on the different personalities Nishi has manifested. So far, I’d say there seem to be three. She’s convinced…
Father Merrin: There is only one.
#201: Not sure what DU is, but I don’t want B impeached; I want him deposed.
#201: Not sure what DU is, but I don’t want B impeached; I want him deposed.
You will find kindered spirits at the Democratic Underground.
Thanks, maggie. I found it.
I did kinda sense an impasse, sdferr. Oh hey the swisscakerolls thing got started by somebody else. It sounded good to me too but I decided on breakfast truck breakfast but the breakfast truck pulled away right when I got to it. Now I think I’ll just wait and see what NG wants to do for lunch. Probably nothing cause she has Smart Ones in the freezer. What sounds good is twice-cooked pork from the Chinese people next door. I just started ordering that recently. That’s really the only thing on the menu there they make that I’ve ever gone back for. Or it’s just cause it has cabbage. I’d forgotten I like cabbage.
not if you have them for breakfast. ;D
Ah. So you’re all for trashing the Constitution.
Again, I’m amazed at the honesty we’ve been seeing of late.
I might have yogurt for breakfast… I’m not sure if there’s any vanilla left, but we got a ton last week. If Jeff were to post something I could read it while I ate my yogurt. That would be really cool I think.
Have you read River of Gods yet? Why not? Hurry up!
Me? It’s on my list at Amazon but it’s out of stock. I will have to scrounge around for a used one or something.
That was for matoko, hf. She would love it. I don’t know enough about your tastes in fiction to know whether you would like it or not. The novel is science-fictioney and I usually read lierary fiction rather than sci-fi, but I thought it was thought-provoking and very entertaining. Ian McDonald is really a first-rate writer. Also, Reading Darleen’s latest post reminded me of another (non-fiction) book matoko should read if she hasn’t done so already: The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.
Did you get to Red Queen yet Aldo?
Sd,
I haven’t read it yet (River Of Gods was 600 pages. I just finished it.) Red Queen is on my list, though. Maybe I’ll read that next.
Matoko,
I haven’t read COIN. I understand in principle that the strategy does not require an increase in troops, since it is based on indigenous networks. In this specific case, though, it seems to me that “doubling-down” our own committment was a necessary predicate for obtaining the trust of the network. Remember that George H.W. Bush stood by and allowed Hussein’s Republican Gaurd troops to massacre Shiites who had rebelled at his own instigation, and the mood in the US was once more clearly moving toward abandoning Iraq prior to the surge.
The strategy requires the number of troops necessary to execute it. Let’s call that number X. If the number of troops on hand prior to execution of the new strategy is X-25,000 then you need to add 25,000 troops to execute the strategy. If the number of troops on hand is X+25,000, then you can safely remove 25,000 troops. This is not that difficult to grasp, unless you really don’t want to grasp it.
Oh. It’s on my list Aldo cause India is the future. I think I first heard about it here.
Did you know India and Pakistan don’t get along? It’s true. Somebody should organize those communities over there.
You are wrong, B Moe. We are all one world. We all have one-worldish goals.
to Organize&trade
carp
Wow.
We have reached the point where people who think themselves clever are going to reach for any ginsu knife to cut off what Bush did (the Surge) versus what the Sunnis did (Anbar’s Awakening), and try to sell us on the notion that they are entirely unrelated. As though extra troops sent to Anbar in 2006 did nothing to indicate commitment (and thus TRUST) to the Sunnis. As though increased troop strength throughout the country would not make permanent the ability to project strength into Anbar and continue to make alliances with the tribes.
Hilarious, and pathetic. And oh so clever.