Inasmuch as it is a long-running joke here at pw for commenters to denounce themselves for politically incorrect viewpoints, it is worth noting that folks like Richard Clarke and Keith Olbermann would like to have a “truth and reconciliation commission process” established for the Iraq hawks from the Bush administration (for starters). According to Clarke, we cannot let such people back into “polite society.” Unlike unrepentant domestic terrorists like tenured professor Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, whom the Obama campaign describes as “mainstream.â€Â
And in what world does one have to live to be discussing “polite society” with Keith Olbermann?
(h/t Rob Crawford.)
One answer: It is the same world that ignores Sen. Jay Rockefeller’s plan to accuse these same people of lying since 2003, despite describing Iraq as an imminent threat himself before the invasion.
Richard Clark is absolutely correct.
Kudos to him.
They have not discussed Ayers guy, btw.
Irrelevant to theme of betraying your country and people…
“Richard Clarke and Keith Olbermann would like to have a “truth and reconciliation commission processâ€Ââ€Â
I’m sure they get choose who gets on this Stalinist tribunal.
“Irrelevant to theme of betraying your country and people…”
The Democrat party.
It is the same world in which the true enemies are those that stand in the way of “progress”, rather than work to kill our citizens. See, it might cost us a few thousand lives, but the dems are assured that they can maintain power in the face of international attacks. Their true threat is that someone might convince Americans that the leftists are wrong.
Terrorists: sit down and understand their feelings.
Conservative Americans: Shun, Shun, Shun.
That stance alone ought to be enough to convince casual observers of the depravity of the leftist mindset. It isn’t, but it ought.
ef, they should be shunned not because they are “conservatives” (which in reality they are not)
but because they lied to you…
or you don’t care?
Irrelevant to theme of betraying your country and people…
Really?
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169
I think that’s pretty much in th nose
Thanks Sash… like I said: It isn’t, but it ought.
Those “liars”, to accept your assertion for brevity, are to be hunted and shamed. The guys with the suicide belts, well, they might be reasonable.
If there is such a mountain of evidence that the EEEEVIIIILLL neocons lied to the American people, including BushHitler and CheneyStalin, then why have there been no impeachment hearings and why do solid lefties like Pelosi and Reid continue to state that there is no possibility of impeachment hearings?
The truth is that there is no such mountain or molehill or anthill of evidence that anybody deliberately lied or deceived the American people and they damn well know it. The cries are the convenient camoflage for all of those good Dems who voted for the Iraq War Resolution and now are left to apologize to the likes of you and the loopy anti-war crowd for their transgressions. Of course they were lied to. How else could they have voted that way?
Clarke and Olbermuffin can bloviate all they want: There won’t be any such commission because no one was lied to. Get over it.
Now as to how an unrepentent domestic terrorist gets to be a state scholar and a part of a presidential candidate’s campaign …NOBODY EXPECTS THE WEATHERMAN INQUISITION!!
The only liar was Saddam, sashal. Fer crissake, as our forces neared Baghdad, they intercepted an Iraqi radio transmission giving release to use chemical weapons. Everybody thought Saddam had them, including his own forces.
I’m amazed that you’d buy into such a totalitarian ploy as this — fer crissake, self-denunciation was a favorite of the Communists. OK, maybe I’m not all *THAT* amazed — you seem damned willing to excuse or accept ANY act to punish they folks you’ve decided are your enemies.
Well, I’m in a really shitty mood right now, and don’t want to get into a debate with you over why criminalizing policy differences is wrong, so I’ll just say: go fuck yourself. With a pitchfork. Backwards.
I do think a truth council is beyond silly especially since truth, like language, is such a slippery slope.
A good example of slippery truthers is KK, who, as we all know, is our local home team propaganda con. AP is actually responsible for “mainstream” being used to describe Bill Ayers. Obama’s website simply uses a quote from AP.
http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/04/17/fact_check_on_clinton_attacks.php
In KK stating “Bill Ayers […], whom the Obama campaign describes as ‘mainstream'” we clearly see that KK has made, yet another, false assertion.
Beyond your sloppiness, KK, you’re simply annoying to one’s sensibilites.
[Team Obama sanitized their site, which used to rely on a quote from noted moonbat Alexander Cockburn. -K]
BJTexas, isn’t funny that the likes of Pelosi got an earful of EXACTLY what the CIA was doing with detainees in 2002 and didn’t bat an eye. How come they haven’t come after her with the tar and feathers, I wonder. Ah, well as our gracious host sez, Will to Power and all that………..
There need not be actual lies, BJ, for a commission of appropriately minded individuals to line up a handful of people to beg forgiveness for them. Some recent book authors have shown that cash and not political, civil or criminal pressure are all that’s needed. It would be quite a spectacle for even a few to describe the crimes of others that they witnessed, or even heard about, or that “everyone knew” of regardless of any actual connection to reality. Hell, it might even be a road to a future presidential run. Minus having someone else’s ribbons to toss over a fence.
That evidence exists already. Read the latest senate report, signed by 2 republicans as well.
Impeachment? Don’t know. Don’t care. I’d rather see those who falsely led us into war which caused more then 4000 deaths and 20000 injured behind the bars….
Um, did Obama’s web site, you know, have to us the AP quote? I mean they could have quoted something from the FBI files about this upstanding American citizen, right?
sashal the only lying going on is by the people who insist that somehow President Bush (who they compare to a chimp) misrepresented intelligence obtained during the Clinton administration and tricked them into authorizing the Iraq war.
Doesn’t that bother you? They think you are so stupid you will believe it. But I guess you do believe it don’t you? LOL!!!
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 3:17 pm #
Richard Clark is absolutely correct.
Kudos to him.
They have not discussed Ayers guy, btw.
Irrelevant to theme of betraying your country and people…”
Except that Ayers is a fucking terrorist.
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 3:51 pm #
That evidence exists already. Read the latest senate report, signed by 2 republicans as well.
Impeachment? Don’t know. Don’t care. I’d rather see those who falsely led us into war which caused more then 4000 deaths and 20000 injured behind the bars….”
Yeah, all all theose Democrat liars……..
Grrrr…
Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 3:51 pm #
77 Bills of indictment coming up:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&vote=00237&session=2
Funny, how the guy in charge of this latest report would be under indictment, also…..
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 3:51 pm #
That evidence exists already. Read the latest senate report, signed by 2 republicans as well.
Impeachment? Don’t know. Don’t care. I’d rather see those who falsely led us into war which caused more then 4000 deaths and 20000 injured behind the bars….”
Fitzmas IS coming…….
“I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks.”
#19 “Yeah, all all theose Democrat liars………..”
But they’ve already spun ’round three times, hopped on their foot to the tunes of the earth, wind and fire and declared “not it” to shrine of garden woodchuck skulls. Can’t go after them.
It’s not my job to speak for Obama’s web editor but I assume the purpose of that page is to counter some of the low-IQ drool of right-wing propagandists. I think we can all agree that cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths are damaging to any serious political discourse.
“I think we can all agree that cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths are damaging to any serious political discourse.”
Obama’s withdrawing?
“I think we can all agree that cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths are damaging to any serious political discourse”
You don’t like O!’s standard stump speeches?
“I think we can all agree that cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths are damaging to any serious political discourse.”
LOL! that is funny but in all seriousness how would the Democrats campaign without “cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths”.
“LOL! that is funny but in all seriousness how would the Democrats campaign without “cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truthsâ€Â.”
With Mccain golf gear.
Golf gear, er…what? Because McCain can’t lift his arms above his shoulders?
It’s not my job to speak for Obama’s web editor but I assume the purpose of that page is to counter some of the low-IQ drool of right-wing propagandists. I think we can all agree that cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths are damaging to any serious political discourse.
Then why is the title of the page: Fact Check on Clinton Attacks on Obama and Ayers
April 17, 2008
Well, I will not propagate lies and half-truths, let’s here it from Mr Mainstream himself:
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/August-2001/No-Regrets/index.php?cp=2&si=1#artanc
300+ Million people in this country and Obama!? is the best the Dems can field?
I weep for our future.
– The Left is running as fast as it can to stay barely ahead of the freight thts just behind them. They have no choice at this point but to ride this bullshit meme of “Bush” lied all the way to the cliff.
– With each bit of good news from Iraq, the train inches a little closer.
– Good luck surrender monkeys. When that train hits, it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of assholes.
Oh to put the Obermeister on trial for his bourgeoisies lifestyle trial with some Shining Path types as judges.
Judging from his increasingly irrational statements, I think Keith Olbermann should hire a sexy Swedish nurse who’ll keep reminding him to take his lithium every day.
sashal:
The latest Senate Report? That is interesting because the minority in that report took exeption with what they said, not to mention the fact that the Senate did another report a couple of years ago and came up with different findings. I guess that means every time the Senate changes hands they will have to do yet another report.
But even then the report did not accuse the Bush administration of lying. And they made a point of saying that the vast majority of the evidence cited was in fact supported by the intel they had. In other words, the report is bullshit designed to serve a political purpose. And you bought into it.
I can remember back when Clinton was president hearing all this same information from the Clinton administration. So were they lying too? And what about the British? Were they lying? And the Czechs and the Germans? What about Hans Blix before his conversion? I can remember him telling a journalist that there had to be “presumption” that Saddam had stockpiles simply because the UN weapons inspectors had no evidence of their destruction.
So now, after the Democratically controlled Senate voted for the war they try to cover their asses with this crap. The truth is their attitude is that the best defense is a good offense. And if they had really had any evidence of outright lying they would have done more than some silly little report.
BTW, I can remember Richard Clarke saying that Osama would boogie off to Iraq if he was run out of the Sudan, he was that sure that there were ties between Saddam and Osama. The big fibber.
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.
Perhaps there can be special places set up, call them camps, where people could be taught the proper way to think, perhaps “reeducation” is the proper way to put it.
“sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you”
No kidding sashal the way the Bush Administrations talked you would have thought Saddam was having his armed forces shoot missiles and anti-aircraft artillery at American planes. Or that he would invade a couple of other countries. Or course all those mass grave were planted by the RNC before the invasion.
I mean its not like Saddam was a sadistic mass murderer whose self proclaimed main enemy was the USA.
Where I Denounce Myself…
Karl at Protein Wisdom notes:…folks like Richard Clarke and Keith Olbermann would like to have a “truth and reconciliation commission process†established for the Iraq hawks from the Bush administration (for starters). According to Clarke, we cannot …
sashal:
Selective information? The Senators who are raising hell about this had access to that intel. The CIA Director Tenet who put it together got his job in 1997 when he was appointed by Clinton at the suggestion of his good friend Al Gore. There was no debate then. Everyone was on the same page then. So what do you arrest them for?
One of the things the self serving Democrats who put this report together noted was the reference to Atta having a meeting with an Iraqi agent in Czechoslovakia. Cheney said there was no way of knowing if it happened or not, but the Czechs still stand by it, are they lying? The Brits still stand by intel that Saddam was trying to buy uranium in Africa. Did they lie? Should we punish them?
And then there is the simple fact that Saddam did have weapons programs that he was not supposed to have. There is no doubt of that. Just like there is no doubt that he allowed Zarqawi in the country. Or that he gave money to AlQaida members. Or that he supported terrorists and terrorist groups. These facts were established long before Bush became President. In fact it was the Clinton administration who was responsible for a good deal of the intel that the Democrats are criticising.
So I do not see a lie. I think the Democrats redid the report after they got the majority so that they could release it in an election year. They did it in the hopes that uninformed people such as yourself would be naive and gullible enough to buy it.
BTW, Saddam had every opportunity to answer any questions and put any doubts to rest as to what he was up to. The US would have even overlooked his attempts to kill a president and his blatant violations of the cease fire if he had just cooperated and resolved the situation. But he did not.
Besides, I think it was inevitable that we would end up over there because of Saddam. Sooner or later, it was gonna happen. Saddam was not going to change. And the idea that the US would overlook the UN violations and thievery and the firing on our planes and just let Saddam go back to making his weapons, slaughtering his people and causing trouble in the region..well I just don’t think that was going to happen.
And I for one am glad Kaddafi does not have a nuke. I am not sure that would be the case if Saddam had been left in power.
Terrye
“I think the Democrats redid the report after they got the majority so that they could release it in an election year”.
Do you mean the Democrats are using “cheap, dumb, propagated lies and half-truths”? How could that be?
royf:
That is exactly what I am saying. This is why I got so frustrated with the disgruntled conservatives who did not vote in 2006. I knew that once the Democrats had the majority, there would be all sorts of crap like this.
The really annoying thing is that people like Rockefeller misled Bush, not the other way around. If Saddam was really the innocent little victim they are trying to say he was, then there should not have been an Iraqi Liberation Act. Zinni should not have been telling Congress that Saddam was a bigger threat than Osama and all kinds of stuff. We had screwed around with this guy for almost 10 years between the time the Gulf War ended and Bush actually took office. If Saddam was not a threat, that would have been the time to turn him lose. But they didn’t.
And sashal, the Russians told the American government that Saddam was planning attacks inside the United States and against American interests abroad. Should we arrest Putin?
sashal,
It is the Bush critics who are relying on selective info from what was available. The assessements of the intelligence community, however, are (or were) based on consensus.
But don’t take my word for it — take it from former Powell Aide Lawrence Wilkerson, who also claims there “was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.” Hardly a Bush fan, but honest about the state of intelligence at the time, which is more than one can say of the Dems, Olbermann, etc.
“take it from former Powell Aide Lawrence Wilkerson, who also claims there “was a cabal between the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.—
Yea b/c you know teh bureaucracy should run the government not the elected village missing an idiot.
… war which caused more then 4000 deaths and 20000 injured…
Cheer up– we’ve chopped up way, wayyy more jihadi scum than that! In that sense, “Mission Accomplished.”
What a minute…are you pretending to anguish over *our* troops?
Cordially…
“… war which caused more then 4000 deaths and 20000 injured…”
D-Day
“Total Allied casualties on D-Day are estimated at 10,000, including 2500 dead. British casualties on D-Day have been estimated at approximately 2700. The Canadians lost 946 casualties. The US forces lost 6603 men. Note that the casualty figures for smaller units do not always add up to equal these overall figures exactly, however (this simply reflects the problems of obtaining accurate casualty statistics).
Casualties on the British beaches were roughly 1000 on Gold Beach and the same number on Sword Beach. The remainder of the British losses were amongst the airborne troops: some 600 were killed or wounded, and 600 more were missing; 100 glider pilots also became casualties. The losses of 3rd Canadian Division at Juno Beach have been given as 340 killed, 574 wounded and 47 taken prisoner.
The breakdown of US casualties was 1465 dead, 3184 wounded, 1928 missing and 26 captured. Of the total US figure, 2499 casualties were from the US airborne troops (238 of them being deaths). The casualties at Utah Beach were relatively light: 197, including 60 missing. However, the US 1st and 29th Divisions together suffered around 2000 casualties at Omaha Beach.”
I must agree; although I think the invasion and occupation was an enormous fuckup, the disaster was a result of turf battles and miscommunication, not mendacity. The drumbeat got louder, and the sense of urgency increased. What good would it do to single out individuals for public rebuke? I despise smarmy Doug Feith and John Yoo, but I suppose given the context in which they were operating, they were only doing their jobs.
There seems to always be a need in this country to target a scapegoat for a national disgrace. I blame that in large part on our collective demand for retribution over reconciliation and cooperation. Look at our criminal justice and tort system — all about hanging ’em high.
Dre,
Casualty figures can’t tell the whole story, as weapons, situations, enemies, and tactics differ from war to war. Aside from the shock value of history, they tell us little.
It’s the big picture items that are the most interesting. Sashal’s adamant that US military involvement in the second world war was purely a response to Japanese aggression, which ignores that what can only be described as an undeclared war existed between the US and Germany in the Atlantic and that Roosevelt had planned the strategic goals of the war prior to Pearl Harbor.
That sort of hindsight logic also ignores the general rules of war, that mistakes will be made by all levels, and that no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.
dre,
My point is that if you read everything Wilkerson says at the link, he ends up debunking most of the BDS talking points, though he clearly has a case of BDS himself.
Hasn’t Dick Cheney done a lot more harm to America than Bernardine Dohrn?
Ric: Yes.
I’m just saying that the left in bringing up casualties in Iraq as a method to show Iraq to be a FU leave out how other wars were deadlier. The “Progressive” deny progress.
The ironic thing is if the US had a truth and reconciliation commission, like the one in South Africa, Guatemala, the Rettig one in Chile, we wouldn’t have to worry about ‘brave speaker of truth to power’ like Herr
Olbermann, because he would have been silenced, along with Moore, Robbins,
Churchill, Sheehan, Carter, McGovern, et al. Those regimes, didn’t ‘dilly
dally’ in their treatment. In almost all cases, the victorious faction in the conflict, eventually had to ‘knuckle under’ to the UN (the representatives of the losing faction)
Then O! should pick Dohrn for Veep.
And sashal is such an expert on American history. The bombing of Pearl Harbor was the final straw, but the fact that Adolf Hitler declared war on the United States had something to do with it too. And it should be remembered that Americans were already volunteering to fly for the RAF long before the US entered the war. Hitler had no doubts as to his enemies were.
Oh come on, despite the demonization of Dick Cheney the man has not done harm to the United States. That is just absurd.
“Hasn’t Dick Cheney done a lot more harm to America than Bernardine Dohrn?”
My man DICK actually worked on a working class job, you know like all Glenn Campbell “I was a Line Man for the county” and Bern was an upper class asshole who liked how Chuck Manson stuck a fork in a woman who had a fetus in her belly.
I was talking to an old man the other day about the Battle of Bulge. He was in Patton’s army. He told me he looks at the equipment the young soldiers of today have and he wonders how many lives would have been saved if they had been equipped and trained half so well. He told me that some soldiers died of exposure because they did not have enough winter gear. Can you imagine the screaming and screeching and eyeball popping outrage that would take place today if soldiers were dieing of exposure?
In the last election, Dick Cheney was the only man on either ticket who had ever worked a minimum wage job.
Can you imagine the screaming and screeching and eyeball popping outrage that would take place today if soldiers were dieing of exposure?
On July 10, 1943 in Sicily.
After a day of heavy fighting, Patton decided to reinforce his battle-weary center with over 2,000 additional paratroopers from his reserves in North Africa. He ordered that the 1st and 2d Battalions, 504th Paratroop Regiment, the 376th Parachute Field Artillery Battalion, and a company from the 307th Airborne Engineer Battalion be dropped near Gela on the night of 11 July. German aircraft had been active over the American sector all day, and consequently senior Army and Navy officers went to great lengths to inform everyone of the impending nighttime paratroop drop lest overanxious gunners fire on the friendly aircraft. Nevertheless, when the transport planes arrived over the beaches in the wake of a German air raid, nervous antiaircraft gunners ashore and afloat opened fire with devastating effect. Allied antiaircraft guns shot down 23 and damaged 37 of the 144 American transport planes. The paratroop force suffered approximately 10 percent casualties and was badly disorganized. Later investigation would reveal that not everyone had been informed of the drop despite the Seventh Army’s best efforts.
http://www.history.army.mil/Brochures/72-16/72-16.htm
They fact is mistakes happen in battle that is the nature of the beast.
terrie, would you tell me that the cloudless sky is green, if the sky was republican ?
Sheesh, the amount of weasley partisanship.
What a nice obedient North Korean you would be.
See, I don’t give a shit, who played with info in order to manipulate us into the war, dems or repubs.
You, obviously do…..
Ayers Advised Chicago Mayor Richard Daley On School Reform Issues. Bill “Ayers is now mainstream  an educator with distinguished professor status. He has written three books about education and has advised Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley on the subject of school reform.†[AP, 10/14/01]
thor – His advice has been working about as well for the Chicago schools as the liberal agenda has for the country. Next.
sashal
“See, I don’t give a shit, who played with info in order to manipulate us into the war, dems or repubs.”
B/c you know um that O! would um like this war is BushRepubthug stuff . Read: Because leftist are Arseholes
sashal:
Spare me. George Bush was the first Republican I ever voted for. I used to be a Democrat. I was a Democrat when the Democrats were saying that Saddam Hussein was a mass murdering dictator. I left the party when they began to put party before country. I am not the partisan here. The truth is when 70% of the population supported removing Saddam from power, the Democrats overwhelmingly supported it too. They changed when it was politcally advantageous for them to change.
And don’t you dare talk to me about being North Korean. After all, I am an American. I believe in freedom of thought. I am not some displaced bolshevik who emigrated so that I could make a buck.
And the world is a better place because Saddam Hussein is not in it. The man was insane. He did not live up to the cease fire he signed. The United States had spent years babysitting his ass while he tortured and killed his own people. He gassed people for Chrisake. Maybe sashal thinks that is ok, but I don’t.
And if you look at the resolution that authorized the use of force, most of the items listed were indeed true, including Saddam’s programs. It would have taken him less than 2 years to rebuild those weapons, which means he would have them today.
sashal: give it up. They’re digging out their high school history notes, their pipes and worn blazers with leather elbow patches, and most importantly, their redirection shields. Better just back quietly out of the room before the orderlies arrive…
cynn:
Oh that was clever. Almost as clever as Bill Clinton was when he went on TV back in the day and said that not only did Saddam Hussein have weapons of mass destruction…why Bill said, Mark my words…he will use them.
So be snarky if you like, but if the same people in the Senate who are Bush a liar today, had done their freaking jobs a decade ago, we might not be having this discussion.
So speaking of orderlies, maybe you can explain to me how this memory hole thing works, how it is that so many people can rewrite and revise history in such a short time?
I didn’t mean to knock your post, dre. It is worth pointing out the numbers involved. If you think D-Day was bad, look at blunders like the Huertegen Forest. For every time people cite the lack of armor on Humvee’s, point out the lack of armor on American tanks throughout the latter part of the war as compared with German medium tanks. The parallels run much deeper than those, however, and it’s worth pointing out those similarities. And the differences, things like official government censorship and propaganda efforts.
How much harm to America did Roosevelt do? Was it more than Cheney? The question itself is ludicrous if you don’t consider merely making mistakes as harm to America. Dohrn, on the other hand, did real, proven and intentional harm, and has indicated that she has no qualms about continuing to do so.
that should be: if the same people are calling Bush a liar today…blah blah blah.
Besides, it is not as if the only mistakes the intel people made were about Iraq. They were wrong about Pakistan’s nukes. Wrong about the Libyan program and it seems they were oblivious to the doings of Dr. Kahn and his nuke for hire business. Just to name a few.
As soon as you start getting into “hasn’t X done harm to America?”, you need to define the phrase “harm to America”. You also need to remember that other people will have different definitions of what constitutes harm, some of which you will not agree with and may even apply to you, and those people will eventually be the ones in power. I don’t want to be on the receiving end of a “truth and reconciliation” court for some thought crime, but I also don’t want Cynn or Sashal to be in front of one, either. As soon as you set that value that you can prosecute people for differing political opinions, which is what we’re talking about here, then you have to assume that others that you disagree with (or that disagree with you) will take the same position.
Same applies to the fairness doctrine; if you want to have to have someone repeat the Republican party line after every political story, even one that tilts Republican to begin with, go ahead and bring back the fairness doctrine for the Democrats. They won’t be in power forever (probably; if any group is in power forever we have bigger problems).
A cardinal rule of thumb for any government structure is: would you support such a structure if you knew it was going to be staffed entirely with your political opponents? If the answer is no, then don’t support it. That rule has kept me from the temptation of wishing to see half the progressive end of the media brought up on treason charges…
Sashal, how do we know Saddam didn’t have WMD?
I’m noticing how much sashal is writing like nishibot
oh cynn, shut up about what you don’t know
Good fucking GOD but I’m tired of all the BushLiedPeopleDied fuckeroonianism.
Clinton signed the goddamnedfucking IRAQ LIBERATION ACT which specifically called for Saddam to be deposed. Embrace it, twatwaffles.
and then we have Caric the Red drop by to scratch his “Conservatives are poopy heads” moment. Must be his time of the month again.
Ordinarily, Id less this pass. But Darleen lost her sheen.
Nice to know the hormones and/or alcohol products affect both of us equally, eh, Dar?
Terrye: Late answer, sorry. I truly think there is a memory hole that serves as a cultural valve. It greases some certain differences (poor Vs. rich) in society, and it disremembers history when it’s necessary. The memory hole is manipulated by whoever can control it.
I truly think there is a memory hole that serves as a cultural valve. It greases some certain differences (poor Vs. rich) in society, and it disremembers history when it’s necessary.
Are there any Geneva Conventions regarding tortured analogies? I think cynn may be a war criminal.
– Well not exactly cynn. Darleen in her cups will still always tear you a new one. Thems the breaks kid.
– and sashal, I see you’re still playing your “I was for it before I was against it” games. Clarke is an embittered petty opportunist, a patent liar, and a Clinton apologist. He thought he’d be clever and get out front of the assinine gutless way he handled things with Bin Laden with his fanciful book. He saw the writing on the wall, and where the footprints were going to lead back to. If he didn’t have the legacy press carrying his water he would have gotten laughed at worse than McClellan. If you can’t see that in his lying weale eyes you really are dumber than a bag of hammers like BJ says.
You guys are pure entertainment.
cynn
my less sheenieness was delivered stone-cold sober, borne out of the frustration of dealing yet again with all manner of ilk still serving up shit and trying to pass it off as mignon.
You want to argue to the cows come home on whether or not the specific strategy to deal with Saddam could have been done differently – knock yerself out. Fact remains, though, there was no lying. And the attempt to keep saying there WAS is no different than 911 Troothers or Holocaust deniers.
– Glad you see the light cynn. sashal….probably no hope ever for him.
Oh, and while I’m at it, fuck Bmoe and his/her tortue references.
– Tsk tsk…. such language.
– Well in a way I don’t blame you. The Left is painted into an incredibly tiny corner at this pont, and I imagine its getting pretty fucking warm where you’re at.
– Like I cautioned sashal on another thread, you need to pay close attention to the SecProgg memo’s, because as things continue to stabilize in Iraq, the Narrative(tm), she will be a’changing, and you don’t want to be caught to far behind the talking points crib. The “Bush bad” screed is way past its expiration date. Even the Obamessiah is starting to show he gets it.
Hey, I will be honest, because it’s looking more like we’re all in this together. We need to ditch the facile lunchroom foodfight ittle back and forth crap that has concealed the fact that the entire campaign is weightless.
Can we please have some substantial discussion rather than divisive bullshit? My God, I’d rather have a Jeff G disquisition on the potential polititical outcome vs. the linguistic tropes employed given the current linguistic climate, than some of the dreary crap we deal with now.
well, did Bernadine ever shoot anybody in the face?
Cynn, do you really believe a truth and reconciliation committee will not turn into a partisan show trial? Is there a bipartisan mandate that we can establish that would satisfy both sides that the whole thing was fair and not a political witch hunt? I for one would love to see legally established as fact that some of the atrocities the US stands accused of by the anti-war left didn’t happen (IF they indeed did not happen). Would merely establishing a baseline set of facts regarding the war be an acceptable mandate for a commission, and would the far left be willing to accept a commission that didn’t end with Cheney in front of a firing squad (or rather, didn’t start with the presumption he’s guilty)?
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 5:24 pm #
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.”
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
– Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”
– President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
– President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 5:24 pm #
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.â€Â
“We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction.”
– Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
– Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
Letter to President Clinton.
– (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 5:24 pm #
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.â€Â
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
– Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source
“Hussein has … chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
– Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
– Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 5:24 pm #
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.â€Â
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
– Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
– Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”
– Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source
“Comment by sashal on 6/7 @ 5:24 pm #
hahaha, terrie.
sure they did not lie.
just used selective info for you, so you can approve the war which did not have to be.
Dems did that too?
Arrest them also.â€Â
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
– Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members … It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
– Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.”
– Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source
You were saying?
I think Sashal is one of those Soro employees who sits in Mommy’s basement getting paid to troll stupid stuff.
I’d like to have a inner Republican truth trial. Let’s roll the clock back to 2000. After 9/11 there was a collective thanking of God that Gore wasn’t elected. Wrong. We (I voted Repub in that one) should have been asking ourselves why the hell we didn’t nominate and send McCain to the House. If so then the Iraq war would have been done right, meaning more troops with fewer orders to build schools and more orders to shoot on sight.
McCain would have wasted the place/enemy/al Qaeda/insurgency and brought our troops home within his first term, which is the point of war, namely, to kill all and then come home, when you’re in it to win it.
Thank you Pat Robertson and thanks to the late Jerry Falwell for doing the right-wing God-bag smear job on McCain. Brilliant. We could have had a Patton figure in the House when we needed one, instead we had the shittier version of Jeb Bush. Yeah, I said the shittier Jeb, seeing how Jeb was a kick-ass Governor – you’ll be hard-pressed to find anyone in Florida who didn’t think Jeb Bush was stellar in office, and I’m talking both Dems and Repubs – unlike his marble-mouthed part-time Gov. brother, George.
Until the Repubs figure out and admit how bad they fucked up in 2000, they’ll keep losing. Bush was as inept then as now. And I’m not a Bush-hater, Repub-weenies.
#
Comment by maggie katzen on 6/8 @ 1:10 am #
well, did Bernadine ever shoot anybody in the face?
Hey! It was an accident! It wasn’t like I was trying to murder the guy! Shit! You’d think I tried to bomb a police station or something. Give it a rest, already. Sheesh.
This is still fucking unbelievable. For crissake, sashal, Saddam’s own people thought he had WMD, to the point someone high up in his regime issued a release to use them on US forces. The primary argument I heard from the left against removing Saddam wasn’t that he was no threat, but that he would gas our troops and we’d be bringing tens of thousands of them back in body bags.
If you want to live in a dictatorship, then keep pushing for crap like this. It’s an easy enough scenario to imagine (because it’s happened before):
o A US president, unpopular thanks to a never-ending stream of lies from his opponents, is looking at leaving office. He’s relieved, but at the same time, he’s facing political opposition that promises to prosecute him for a policy they approved but which turned unpopular. Of course, it wouldn’t just be him, it would be his advisors, his assistants, maybe even extending into the uniformed ranks. None of those people did anything wrong, and the president still believes the policy was correct. Hell, the opposition approved it before he implemented it.
So what does he do? Does he leave office peacefully, then spend the rest of his life in prison — and condemn dozens (hundreds?) of innocent men to prison? Does he issue a flurry of pardons, making those same men appear guilty, but keeping them out of prison? (And, of course, there are plenty of legal scholars who would gleefully argue such pardons are invalid, for some reason or other.)
Or does he emulate Gaius Julius Caesar when he faced the same problem? Does he cross the Rubicon?
We should certainly hold politicians, even presidents, to account for real crimes they commit; office should not be license. But legally enacted policy should never be subject to punishment, regardless of how it turns out, or how unpopular it becomes.
STFU, thor.
At which point, the next Democratic administration would be holding a Truth and Reconciliation witch trial for members of the McCain Administration for not rebuilding Iraq.
Bob on yourself, Rob.
Saddam provided the U.N. an inventory list of WMD’s shortly after the first Iraq war. It stated his inventories, which were plentiful, of chemical and biological weapons. Saddam wouldn’t cooperate nor detail how or if he destroyed his inventories, he simply implied it. For his lack of candor he was killed, as he should have been. There’s your argument. You’re welcome.
Now, now, Civilis, you’re just blinded by the near-perfect political opportunism the left’s shown these last eight years.
STFU, thor.
This thread has nothing to do with O! apologetics.
Nor did my posts, ass monkey.
Yep. If the US had gone in, wrecked the place, and left, we’d be blamed for the resulting humanitarian disaster and Yugoslav-level ethnic cleansing; before the war they were endlessly harping on those very fears. Since we went in, stayed, and are spending the time to prevent the humanitarian disaster and at least mitigate the ethnic difficulties, we’re blamed for not leaving. Likewise, the isolationist left and right are endlessly promoting the idea that we should have concentrated on more homeland security, while at the same time bemoaning the loss of liberty from the homeland security steps that we did take. Meanwhile, a lot of those on the left will completely forget about the arguments that have been made that don’t support their current position and only remember those that do. Sashal, regardless of his other faults, is at least consistent in his complaints. The progressive left will not be satisfied unless whatever happens turns out perfectly, at which point they’ll only remember their pronouncements that supported that position and take credit for the success.
Yet not a word on the cock slappin’ sashal recieved upthread.
For a sitting Senator, electing him to the House would have been a demotion.
Oh, you meant the Melanin-Deficient House? Has the “W” word become intolerable among the O!borg? Anyway…
The reason I was against McCain having anything to do with the GOP presidential ticket in 2000 is the same reason I’m not planning to vote for him in 2008. Odd, though, that they guy who’s claiming in this thread McCain would have saved the world if elected in ’00, argues he shouldn’t be elected in ’08 and is backing O!
At least I’m remaining consistent from one election cycle to the next. I’m not backing O!, but I’m also not backing McCain.
#96
And it still would take a very long time to prosecute the war. That is the nature of counterinsurgencies. McCain would have made no difference.
McCain would have wasted the place/enemy/al Qaeda/insurgency and brought our troops home within his first term, which is the point of war, namely, to kill all and then come home, when you’re in it to win it.
That would have been perfect! We should have supported this McCain! Think of what we could have done with all that Iraqi oil!
Think of what we could have done with all that Iraqi oil!
In you fucking dreams, Junior.
Uh, Ahem.
For my entire adult life, at least half of the Right’s political efforts consist of countering the constant cynical LIES of the left. There’s hardly a subject about which the left don’t lie constantly. Hell, it’s been so constant some of them don’t even realize they’re doing it, they actually think they live in the topsy-turvy world in their head.
I had high hopes that the “new media” on the Web would at least help by creating some kind of “permanent record,” but unfortunately, it’s just as good a medium for lies as for truth, so it’s filled with leftist lies and the right has to waste even more time trying to correct the record.
Maybe as lie-detection technology improves, it will simply impossible to lie (at least in public). That would be a pain in the keester, given all the little “white lies” polite society depends on, but it would cut down on the constant barrage of spittle-flecked lies.
Sadly, it wouldn’t affect internet posts, though perhaps there could be some kind of automated annotation system that would perform instant fact-checks.
On a side topic, has anyone actually checked where sashal is posting from to make sure he has proper supervision? I’m just worried that he’ll harm himself or others.
Face it, for good or ill, this “war” is ending. I would like to know what you hope to salvage from this physical, cultural and moral open space.
merovign; i find your obsession with sashal unhealthy. So some nobody questions you and your half-assed notions; why make veiled threats? You have lost your grip.
You can STFU, too, cynn. The rest of us have watched sashal go from reasonable but wrong to utter bug-fuck crazy. To the point where he’s spouting lefty talking points from the last election and accusing everyone who dares disagree with him of being “Trotskyites”.