Quick! Hurry up and elect Obama so the US and its coalition partners can admit defeat and pull troops from Iraq, lest we finish off al Qaeda once and for all! Like, you know, bullies! From Talisman Gate:
A prolific jihadist sympathizer has posted an ‘explosive’ study on one of the main jihadist websites in which he laments the dire situation that the mujaheddin find themselves in Iraq by citing the steep drop in the number of insurgent operations conducted by the various jihadist groups, most notably Al-Qaeda’s 94 percent decline in operational ability over the last 12 months when only a year and half ago Al-Qaeda accounted for 60 percent of all jihadist activity!
The author, writing under the pseudonym ‘Dir’a limen wehhed’ [‘A Shield for the Monotheist’], posted his ‘Brief Study on the Consequences of the Division [Among] the [Jihadist] Groups on the Cause of Jihad in Iraq’ on May 12 and it is being displayed by the administration of the Al-Ekhlaas websiteâ€â€one of Al-Qaeda’s chief media outletsâ€â€among its more prominent recent posts. He’s considered one of Al-Ekhlaas’s “esteemed” writers.
The author tallies up and compares the numbers of operations claimed by each insurgent group under four categories: a year and half ago (November 2006), a year ago (May 2007), six months ago (November 2007) and now (May 2008). He demonstrated that while Al-Qaeda’s Islamic State of Iraq could claim 334 operations in Nov. 06 and 292 in May 07, their violent output dropped to 25 in Nov. 07 and 16 so far in May 08. Keep in mind that these assessments are based on Al-Qaeda’s own numbers.
The author also shows that similar steep drops were exhibited by other jihadist groups […]
So. What we have is jihadists virtually conceding defeat, while the leading Democratic candidate for president essentially campaigns on a way to turn that defeat into a victory by removing the obstacles to jihadi success.
To which I say, keep your chin up, al Qaeda in Iraq! After all, O! is promising hopeyness and changitude! — though for a while there, he had me convinced he was directing that message at the US electorate.
Instead, turns out he’s just pitching it toward our adversaries and the uninformed here at home — and of course, to those who feel that shows of US military strength are just part and parcel of an unsavory US international hegemony, one that needs to be thwarted so that we’ll learn our lesson about crass interventionalism (defined as interventionalism in our own national interests, rather than the kind that smacks of showy altruism); stick to ourselves, culturally speaking; and concentrate on important things, like how best to have the government regulate our thermostats, our medical care, our eating habits, etc., as well as how best to “put every American to work” in the service of the State — a small offering, if you will, to the Secular Godhead and His cult of personality.
Somewhere, Mussolini chuckles.
Or at least, he would, were that meat hook not poking through his ghostly torso like some crazy anti-fascist elephant tusk. Hell on the diaphragm, that.
(h/t N.O. Brain)
You sound bitter. Do you cling to things too? I think you’re jealous because you really don’t have what it takes to be a community organizer or even walk on water. BO-08
Baracky will surrender shortly after taking the Oath of Office.
[…]  al-Qaeda is even lamenting the devastation that has been inflicted on them!  The author tallies up and compares the numbers of operations claimed by each insurgent group […]
Such a constructed symbol the O! has become. Can’t you see O! is a fellow human, with feelings!
“The patient is in full arrest! Code pink! Two hundred CCs of Tet, stat!”
Breaking: Senator Anvilhead has a brain tumor, a malignant glioma. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, and I hope he beats the very long odds. But MA better start looking for a new Senator.
Woosh, the sound of Barak’s whole deal going right over your head. It’s not about who’s winning militarily. It’s about the U.S. finally getting the idea that you don’t solve your problems by hitting. Never hit. Never ever ever hit. Ever. (Unless even the cool people say we should, like when we went into Afghanistan. But other than that never hit.)
Barak’s not going to let us go back to the old days of going it alone, hitting first, etc. We need to stop thinking about which government is totalitarian and should be removed. Barak’s not going to let us go back to thinking in that way.
Oh, and Mookie al-Sadr too. Let’s don’t forget to surrender to him.
– al Qaeda in Iraq – TET redux. The Left is incapable of learning. Their Utopian theology forbids it. If we hand power to the willfully ignorant who wish to commit suicide, we’ll deserve whatever happens to us.
Pablo, if he’s having seizures, it’s late in the game. There are treatable gliomas, but From first reports, I don’t think he will be with us much longer.
It’s about the U.S. finally getting the idea that you don’t solve your problems by hitting. Never hit. Never ever ever hit. Ever. (Unless even the cool people say we should, like when we went into Afghanistan. But other than that never hit.)
Exactly
– Mary Jo is not expected to recover.
They’re FARCed.
By the way, Byrd endorsed Obama.
If I have time later today, I expect to reach the Kleagle hood for comment.
Thanks, Jeff.
I have been wondering why it took you so long to get to this. My Trotskyite Overlords warned me that it was coming back in 2006.
Oy.
Barak’s not going to let us go back to the old days of going it alone, hitting first, etc.
I dunno, he seems pretty down with the whole unilateral action thingy:
“It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005,†he said, referring to reports that the US had decided not to launch a strike for fear of harming ties with Pakistan.
“If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will,†Mr Obama said.
Or is this just another a case of politics-as-usual in that he’s telling the audience (AIPAC) what they want to hear?
– Yeh, uuummm well you know, living in the stinking jungle on Javalin and beetles gets old after 24 years. Shes 45. Last chance at a desperate housewife life.
[…] Protein Wisdom – Chimpy McHitlerburton’s smirky rodeo ride through history, 24: al qaeda’s virtual defeat in Iraq… […]
What’s even more amusing is the present trip, which is receiving almost no coverage in the US media. Bush is methodically and systematically closing off political options, such that any President wanting to implement an Obama-like strategy can only do so by acceding to clearly unreasonable demands. With Maliki discovering that it can be fun to be an inclusive President instead of an inflexible sectarian, and Iraqi forces gaining enough skill and self-confidence to run operations against Sunni jihadists and Shi’ite militias simultaneously, it could just be that come February there’ll be nobody for Baracky to surrender to but maybe a 17-year-old Egyptian in ragged clothes. Nice picture, eh? Much the same thing is happening around the region.
Regards,
Ric
he’s telling the audience (AIPAC) what they want to hear
Correction: the speech was at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, not AIPAC. But my question stands.
The point is moot, as Obama will likely not beat McCain (I sob as I type this).
BBH – people yelled at me for making such a comment in another thread.
Not necessarily. It depends on the location, and often benign tumors will cause seizures but won’t kill you. But malignant glioma + 76 year old man = a very short game overall. GBM sucks major ass, then it kills you. Unfortunately, I know a lot more about this than I wish I did.
Lisa,
Harpers does have a track record on predicting things.
–“If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will,†Mr Obama said.”
– Its to laugh. The one thing the Left never does is to “act”. The only thing they know how to do is hassle their own government, (if they’re not in power of course).
– By “act” he means “act out” in the usual way. Moonbat communes all over SF would light cabdles and form Kumbya circles.
#17 Or is this just another a case of politics-as-usual in that he’s telling the audience (AIPAC) what they want to hear?
Didn’t anyone read Greenwald’s book? He was exhibiting all the textbook symptoms of psychological hypermasculinity.
On the subject of Ted’s tumor, Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.
Re: Ted
I have noticed that the commenters at LGF and HotAir have been mostly very compassionate, as opposed to HuffPo commenters on Tony Snow or Dick Cheney health stories. Despite Ted’s myriad sins, I would rather not be compared to HffPo commenters by anyone.
Lisa —
Believe it or not, *I* sob when I think of a McCain presidency.
Seriously. Give me four years of Christina Applegate instead. We’d be far better off.
Karl —
Agreed, re: Ted. Makes me sad I went after him for the size of his head a few years back. Who knew?
– Carin – I do not wish death on even the worst Lefty scumbag, but if you were there and lived through that era my comment was mild compared to the real treatment Kennedy deserves.
– That, and Mary Jo was not available for comment.
…it could just be that come February there’ll be nobody for Baracky to surrender to but maybe a 17-year-old Egyptian in ragged clothes.
I recall the image from Desert Storm, where an Iraqi soldier was surrendering to a UAV circling overhead. That’s about the way The Messiah™ will look.
It’s about the U.S. finally getting the idea that you don’t solve your problems by hitting. Never hit. Never ever ever hit. Ever.
Strikes me as a fairly naive position, there, jimmah.
–“Seriously. Give me four years of Christina Applegate instead. We’d be far better off.”
– She is aging well.
As it’s not a knock on Ted, I’ll relay that a HA commenter named the tumor “Keith Olbermann.”
I think we can all come together around that. Christina is a uniter. Not like that Cameron Diaz bitch.
BBH, you misunderstand me. I said something very similar, in another thread, and people thought I was being mean. Obviously since I SAID it, I’m not accusing you of anything.
I’d be perfectly happy for Ted to stick around for many more years, because he is – as they say – a target rich environment.
I wouldn’t wish anyone ill- or take joy in other’s pain no matter how much I disagree with them. Well, if Bill Clinton’s penis fell off, I’d think that was kinda funny.
#29: Yeah, I don’t know about LGF, but Hot Air – though they are thoroughly wingnutty – does not go in for the kind of vile shit that places like the Free Republic regularly (like their counterparts at Kos) go in for.
I’d settle for four minutes.
Dunno Lisa,
$130 oil, dollar as peso doppelganger…
don’t see Obama losing.
Because he is a democrat, and has a mouthy tart as a wife, he is easily capable of blowing it.
Like outlining what he really beleives.
MSNBC is probably relieved they have something to cover other than Hillary’s victory in Kentucky tonight.
They can probably cover the Kennedy news until the polls close in Oregon.
#34: Irma Brown disagrees.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WQzk6Ca96I4
A mouthy tart of a wife? LMAO!!
I think it is time we get used to mouthy tart wives (or husbands) now that the mouthy tart-ish baby boomer generation is of age to start running for prez.
JD: Jim is thick with teh parody, ya dig?
One wonders if Harry “We’ve lost” Reid and John “Redeploy to Okinawa” Murtha will have comments or will they be too choked up on pork to bloviate.
Yeesh, when even Nancy Pelosi notices the progress one would think the clue musk would start working. (h/t RTO)
Or we could hope for people with class, who realize they’re just the spouse of the candidate.
oh please, you know the Dems will just be all, “WE won it! so the troops can come home now.” pay no attention to our previous statements. please.
– Nancy didn’t get where shes at by being slow on the non-smoke filled room politics. Shes already licking blue dog ass, and her red phone line to Berkeley has been disconnected.
The funniest thing about a Dem victory in November will be watching one of them officiate over the opening of a permanent US base in Iraq.
I believe that the official Word is that talking about mouthy tarts is “unacceptable.”
She shut down the MoonBat Phone?!
– If that happened YoMamma will insist on dedicating it to the “next 100 years” of Iraqi progress. *snort*
–“She shut down the MoonBat Phone?!”
– Apparently even “America’s Grandma” got tired of listening to Sheehan screech.
I’m guessing that the Obama administration would make a big show of sitting down with the Iranians long before his administration actually effected any changes to the existing drawdown plans for US troops in Iraq.
Obama is happy to let to Democratic base think that he intends to immediately yank all US forces out of Iraq, even though he actually intends to do it gradually. Still, he would have to make a point of drawing some fire from Generals Petraeus and Odierno by taking out more troops, or taking out troops faster, than the Generals want in order to give his political base in the nutroots at least a symbolic victory.
I foresee that Iraq, which will be more stable than South Los Angeles by that point, would suddenly explode in horrific violence sponsored by Iran. Then the photo ops of Obama taking tea with DinnerJacket will be running alongside the photos of captured Iranian munitions and dead civilians, (not on the evening news of course, but at least on Pajamas Media).
This would force Obama to go back to allowing the Generals to plan military strategy. His administration would take a double political hit: mainstream America would realize that Obama was punked by DinnerJacket, and the nutroots would be furious that the withdrawal timetable was set back to where it would have been under a Rethuglican administration.
Nancy Pelosi had almost succome to the “surge is working” meme during her surprise trip to Baghdad, but managed to get back to Washington where they know better and the notion quickly disappeared.
I pre-emptively surrender to whomever… for whatever… while concurrently condemning someone.
Where’s Cowboy when I need him?
Hell, fine… Pablo – consider yourself condemned and also surrendered on behalf of BarackyMcHopeyChangitudiness.
As for Ted Kennedy – I would like to say I am going to be sorry to see him go. Yes, I want him to go quickly. First, because I dont want him to suffer more than absolutely necessary. But secondly because he has wrought nothing but devastation to those around him. I think “Godspeed” pretty much sums it up for me.
Not a problem! Ms. Pelosi will have pleanty of time to bond with Mrs. Moral Transcendence during the campaign.
(hee, hee)
“cult of personality” is it exactly. Creepy, isn’t it? The guy mouths some worn-out lefty platitude and the kosites shiver and wet their pants with delight. Vaporware, they’d call it in the software industry. All talk, no action.
I don’t wish a painful death on Sen. Kennedy.
All I’ve ever hoped for is a just world, where Ted Kennedy would have been released from prison years ago after serving a term on first degree manslaughter charges, on parole for the rest of his life, shunned by all decent people and the only way he would have seen the inside of the Senate was on a third rate tour.
Never forget the first law of street fights: he who throws the first punch usually wins.
Very well said Jeff. Best to you and the family.
– #60 – Yes. Maybe Patrick would have taken note,
“We need to stop thinking about which government is totalitarian and should be removed.”
parody? joke? have I lost my ear?
LMC: Jim brings teh parody!
#57: Wow. Nothing but devastation? His constituents would disagree.
Lisa’s right, Enoch. No one, not Ted Stevens nor the WV Grand Kleegle himself could ever bring teh riches of government lucre to his state like the Tedster.
See: Dig, The Big.
O!’s plan to disarm AmeriKKKa:
Army? We don’t need no stinkin’ Army
The point is moot, as Obama will likely not beat McCain (I sob as I type this).
In the last couple Presidential election cycles the Republicans consolidated their hold on the South and the growing exurbs, while the Democrats consolidated their hold over the demographically shrinking inner cities and the rust belt.
To win, Obama needs to branch out from his base (AFSCME, African Americans, nutroots) and find a way to appeal to exurban America. So far, his strategy has been to link McCain to Bush. I am skeptical about this, because even people who do not follow politics know enough about McCain to know that he is not a Bush clone or wannabe.
Personally, I foresee Obama losing too. The loss will be blamed on his race of course, but I think the real problem will be a kind of cultural disconnect. I sense that even blacks have trouble relating to Obama. He projects that same kind of smug, effete elitism that Kerry did.
Thank BJ. All better now. Pretty damn good, swallowed my gum.
Mmmm I don’t think it will be blamed on race (not entirely). It will be blamed on Hillary, white wimminz, the MSM, Chris Matthews, The Jew Bankers, and the Vast Right Wing Hate Machine (which is Karl Rove’s ass, I suppose).
You know, the usual.
–“He projects that same kind of smug, effete elitism that Kerry did.”
– Which, of course, is exactly the reason the moonbats swoon for him. See thor’s many cackling comments about how elated they all are to “stick it to the godbotherers”. You are simply not a true believer if you actually noticed you were sawing off your own political fortunes. “The snob appeal! Its the LuXor”!!!!!elentyone1111!!!
“Comment by Ric Locke on 5/20 @ 12:55 pm #
What’s even more amusing is the present trip, which is receiving almost no coverage in the US media. Bush is methodically and systematically closing off political options, such that any President wanting to implement an Obama-like strategy can only do so by acceding to clearly unreasonable demands. With Maliki discovering that it can be fun to be an inclusive President instead of an inflexible sectarian, and Iraqi forces gaining enough skill and self-confidence to run operations against Sunni jihadists and Shi’ite militias simultaneously, it could just be that come February there’ll be nobody for Baracky to surrender to but maybe a 17-year-old Egyptian in ragged clothes. Nice picture, eh? Much the same thing is happening around the region.
Regards,
Ric”
Ric –
here’s hopimg.
I think that “Lunkhead” knows that all will br for naught if there is not some resolution in sight when he leaves office. I am pretty sure he has made it crystal clear to the Iraqis that they are fucked if they don’t perform.
Pretty good thinking for a dunce, huh?
Bush is actually a pretty smart man for a chimp.
Mmmm I don’t think it will be blamed on race (not entirely). It will be blamed on
Hillary, white wimminz, the MSM, Chris Matthews, The Jew Bankers, and the Vast Right Wing Hate Machine (which is Karl Rove’s ass, I suppose).Whattayaknow. All hail a successful strike tag.
– TLD – I started musing about that back a few months ago when the locals and Maliki “suddenly” got religion.
#72 Which, of course, is exactly the reason the moonbats swoon for him.
Yes, YUPPIES in general (including journalists) swoon for that kind of candidate. Low information signalling and all that.
Of course all the moonbats were Deaniacs in 2004, and we found out then how significant they all are in the big electoral ocean.
You are simply not a true believer if you actually noticed you were sawing off your own political fortunes.
They don’t notice it because the media, the entertainment industry, academia, all feed their cultural biases back to them. They are in a closed ecosystem and most of the electoral college clout is outside that bubble.
“Chimpy McHitlerburton”, huh? Are you implying that all short WHITE guys with big standout ears look like monkeys? Racist!
#75: Good on you. That shit never works for me. Obviously, html discriminates. I denounce it.
Will it be tacky if the Democrats start using Kennedy’s illness to talk up their agenda on things like health care?
is there an ebonics version of html?
Like alcohol detox and cpr for drowning victims?
“I denounce it.”
Lisa,
That simply won’t do. Please identify the precise area of discrimination (no actual evidence required – feelings are fine) and propose a course of remedy. I would suggest a bank shot regarding your denouncement of HTML. Sure, it’s generally despised, but an “on behalf of all my transgendered Alaskan vegan friends, I denounce” is really the safer course. Otherwise you’ll get a bunch of RTFM replies.
Of course all the moonbats were Deaniacs in 2004, and we found out then how significant they all are in the big electoral ocean.
I suspect that all of us who are (a) political junkies, and (b) comment regularly on blogs are very small in number ( but loud – hear us roar!). I think that the voters who will decide the national election simply do not have the level of passion you see here and elsewhere on the web. It really isn’t as important to them. The ‘low-information voter’ as it were. They make decisions on snippets of fact and vague gut instincts that can’t be easily articulated. It’s the difference between a person who likes science fiction and reads some novels and watches some movies and tv shows as opposed to the guy who remodeled his living room to look like the bridge of the USS Enterprise.
What I am saying, I guess, is do not confuse extreme passion for electoral success on a national scale. Instead look for broad cultural clues that will give an indication which way the bulk of the electorate is trending, especially those groups that reliably vote, such as senior citizens.
(As an aside – electoral success in a district or state does not equal electoral success outside of those narrow areas. Parochial concerns and the positions taken in response are not necessarily transferrable elsewhere.)
Last Fall, Thomas F. Schaller wrote an essay in Salon arguing that the Democrats should stop trying to compete for the white male vote, since the party could win without this demographic. (Granted, Obama gives Chris Matthews a thrill up his leg, but Schaller was referring mostly to working class white males).
Now I’ve started to see nutrooters suggest that the Democrats can win without Jewish votes too. I’ve also seen arguments that the Democrats should give up on the South (Jesusland), and on Christian evangelicals. If the Hillary voters cannot be appeased, the paleo-feminists may sit this one out too.
Who does that leave to vote for Obama? Chris Matthews and Oprah Winfrey?
I wouldn’t mind having the healthcare available for a US senator. If you want to make that available for all, go right ahead.
#84 It’s the difference between a person who likes science fiction and reads some novels and watches some movies and tv shows as opposed to the guy who remodeled his living room to look like the bridge of the USS Enterprise.
Doesn’t tht guy post over at Ace of Spades HQ?
I think the “USS Enterprise home” was in London. And Ace is more of a Star Wars nerd, as in ‘furry like an Ewok’.
Enoch:
I condemn you and order you to surrender to whatever hopey changey totalitarian regime shows up at your doorstep.
Girl Scouts, probably.
You are such a SCOUTIST!!!!
…Oh, and consider yourself triple-dog denounced.
– Oh yeh….yeh well how about this you Hitler like NeoooConsss…. Just what if it turns out in the general election that the blue dogs outnumber the netroots…..what’d’yah think will happen then smarty pantsers….huh…..huh……..?
……?
…..Ummmm…..
– Fuck it……Never mind…
Or at least, he would, were that meat hook not poking through his ghostly torso like some crazy anti-fascist elephant tusk. Hell on the diaphragm, that.
I dunno; Marley’s ghost had a lot to say and he wasn’t in particular good shape. The incorporeal seem to be able to shrug that sort of stuff off.
I recall a Bill Mauldin cartoon which had Nikita Kruschev standing all proud and the ghost of Hitler rising next to him saying, “Hi, Cocky.” And old A.H. was in pretty bad shape with the bullet in the head and the burning and all.
#83: on behalf of all my transgendered Alaskan vegan friends, I denounce (LMAO!!!)
How could I be so remiss?! What the hell kind of liberal am I? (Searches soul; walks the streets sobbing and drinking)
Hey, Jeff. Nice to see ya.
“By the way, Byrd endorsed Obama.
If I have time later today, I expect to reach the Kleagle hood for comment.”
But Byrd, who probably hates obama for the color of his skin, is probably just trying to atone for his “white nigger” comment. I don’t think he even understands what the kerfuffle was about, but he does know that there WAS a kerfuffle, and as the doddering “elder statesman” of the Dem party, he needed to listen to the “youngsters, and try his best to fix it.
I would be surprised if Byrd even knew the difference berween a fork and a spoon, much less the difference between an empty suit and an empty pant suit.
That is the proper response Lisa; so long as you have the correct ‘head tilt’ while apologizing to the universe for your sins. Though you can straighten your head to drink – we wouldn’t want you to spill and have ‘alcohol abuse’ added to your list of sins.
-(ppppsssttt….Lisa….”rending clothes”……don’t forget rending clothes….)
Are ashes to be involved, BBH? And wouldn’t that involve a carbon credit?
This is more complicated than I thought – probably best to just shelve the whole idea Lisa and go to a bar for a couple, then go home and sleep.
HTML is actually fun, Lisa. It lets you do things like this:
“The Story of O¡!! As Felt By Thor”
dur, cuz NOT talking to them has been working so very well for us.
Don’t you think it is sorta highschool to refuse to talk?
And Hamas, sheesh…..they are the democratically elected government of Palestine.
Democracy in action.
It makes the US look pretty hypocritical to shun them.
This is how the propaganda looks….”the Americans disdain your country. The big white bwanas are dissing you again small brown/black ppls.”
At least the tyrant club can’t say that about O, hehe.
And , oh yah, the Israelis.
The Israelis fucked Lebanon. And they didn’t get their soldiers back either.
Some allies.
Well duh Americans disdain their country. It’s a nasty fucking pit is why and also it’s crawling with Palefuckingstinians. Ick.
We are talking to them now, genius.
Tell it to O!, who doesn’t want to talk to Hamas.
Still stuck on “dumb as a cinder block.”
lulz
oh an Aldo.
you musta missed this.
Not only is O gonna win, i ‘spect the Right will gulagged for the next 20 years or so.
;)
Aldo wrote:
It’s also the thesis of The Emerging Democratic Majority, by John Judis & Ruy Tuxiera. But there have been few Lefties more nervous about O! than Judis. Go figure.
Hitler was elected too, you dope.
well gee whillikers, Karl, why is it so bad for O to talk to them then?
guess wat i just heard on FOX.
that it was A BIG MISTAKE for JFK to talk to Kruschev cuz Kruschev PUSHED HIM AROUND and likely CAUSED THE BAY OF PIGS and some such BS.
george packer = expert on the right
lulz
nishi lurvs elected terrorists.
someone’s never heard of the vienna summit.
shocka
lulz
and, yah, O is JUST LIKE JFK an about to make a BIG MISTAKE.
i forgot that part.
wtf does Shaller have to do with this convo?
I was explainin to Aldo why the youth demographic is goin for O.
you know proteins, assorted twodigits and 40percenters, i absolutely supported GulfII.
but it is time to go now.
the majority wants it.
part of believing in the Pertraeus/Kilcullen social engineering model means believing that it is working and is going to continue to work.
we can’t be forever-babysitters.
im responding to aldo’s #85
cause he’s a grown-up
and O! is no JFK
he’s not even dan quayle
lulz
Negotiating with the Japanese worked out real well in late 1941. And the Ethiopians had such success negotiating with the Italians. Oh, wait – negotiation didn’t work so good then with some people and their ‘legitimate demands’. Who could have guessed that after reading the record of history?
Certainly not Sen. Obama and matoko.
BOO!
Ric,
W/r/t to the closing of political options by Bush on this visit, could you flesh that out a little bit. I’d be curious to see your take.
v/r
BRD
And the Ethiopians actually took the issue to the League of Nations for resolution like a civilized people should. I forget – how exactly did that work out?
The only good thing about Palestine really would be like if your personal trainer said hey you really have to stop eating at Boston Market you might could go to Palestine and you’d be on track in no time. Or you could get a different trainer.
“By the way, Byrd endorsed Obama.”
Did he call him “boy”?
“Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/20 @ 4:45 pm #
you know proteins, assorted twodigits and 40percenters, i absolutely supported GulfII.
but it is time to go now.”
Just when we’re winning, you retarded marmoset.
Good call.
nishi —
If Obama were to say, “we’re really winning this thing, and we’re now pleased to hand over Iraq to the new govt and the new improved multi-sectarian Iraqi military,” he’d at least be close to the truth.
Instead, he knows that to be the case, and yet he wants to make sure Bushco gets no credit for the transformation. BECAUSE OF TEH NEW POLITICS OF UNITYNESS!
Well duh of course their vegetables are good cause they soak them in butter you idiot.
That Land O Lakes spreadable butter is very good. And the little rectangle plastic containers are great to hold paperclips and small nails and rubber bands.
Oooo. The bar sound system is playing Golden Earring’s ‘Twilight Zone’. Good tune.
nishi doesn’t work around any toxic chemicals does she? Perhaps her house has lead paint and she’s been licking the walls …
Just thinking out loud here.
Carin,
I’m betting on a lead pacifier – which is still in daily use.
Jeff G.
Agreed, re: Ted. Makes me sad I went after him for the size of his head a few years back. Who knew?
Who knew what? That excessive alcohol consumption makes your liver swell?
Everyone.
Of course, no one imagined a human whose liver was 64.7% of his total body weight, which led to the subsequent deformity of the skull.
“Not only am I a member of the “Paint Chip Of The Month Club”, I’m the founder!
-nishi
A little OT, I know, but I’m curious. What would happen (probably against all odds) should Hillary win in November, with Billy Jeff as her running mate? Precedent … anybody?
It was the jowls, I think, that confused everyone. That and the substances that he has taken down over the years. Like with Keith Richards, everyone figured no disease would have a chance with Sen. Kennedy’s system. They figured that with the self-inflicted damage that he has shrugged off evident any disease would just give up on principle.
#127 Diana:
Well, due to the 22nd Amendment there would be questions of Wm. J. Clinton getting sworn in if president H. Clinton died, but the language would imply that he could finish out her term. He just couldn’t be elected to another term.
Constitutional scholars would have a field day with that scenario.
So … if he knocks her off on day two of her Presidency …. y’all are FUBAR. That’s what I thought.
We’re FUBAR?
For what?
Other then there would be boom-times for Constitutional scholars on all the talking head shows, and everyone else in the chain of succession to the presidency jockeying for place with that paralyzation of the federal government for at least a year…no, I can’t see how that would equal a FUBAR or at least a SNAFU for every American citizen no matter his or her political affiliation.
Grow up; I play the fool when I can, where I can. I also know enough to know when to put the fool away.
Geez … I was just kidding!
Oh! Just kidding?
Darn this inability to see invisible sarc tags!
You need to borrow Jeff’s rimless glasses.
Chimpy and his trusty steed.
I’d never deprive Jeff of those glasses. It’d be against the code, you know. My semi-rimless glasses work well for me most of the time.
And when they don’t, I apologize.
Dan – the linky did not work for me. Is the steed an up-armored ‘dillo? With a gun turret? ‘Cause that would be boss!
It worked out as well as Naboo vs. the Trade Federation; Bajorans v.Cardassians
;not terribly well.
But, Jeff, he can’t say that and get elected!
nudge nudge, wink wink……psssssst …..teh netroots!
he has to run on gettin out.
and dur, he hasn’t been briefed yet.
i have more tickets than Slart, didja kno?
access is super competitive in both worlds, right Slart?
if its any consolation, the nutroots are just as whack as the wide boiz….just in different ways.
Torturegate! Impeach Boosh!
its maniacs all the way down. :(
Yeah, troy. After that movie (#4, but #1 in the sequence) I was rooting for the Republic to fall. I mean, what good was it if a member could attack another without the whole saying ‘Stop!’ and enforcing that? What really was the point of the Galactic Republic? To give a bunch of diplomats access to great watering holes and the finest…whatever those species wanted?
Get bent, Galactic Republic, we’re up-arming. And people wonder why the Articles of Confederation didn’t work…
and to give him credit, i think GW doesn’t care who gets props as long as we “win” in Iraq.
he knows he fucked up everything everything else.
and he should have had kilcullen’s paradigm in there way earlier.
typical old white guy mentality.
not flexible.
Just because the loons in Gaza elected Hamas doesn’t mean I’m going to kiss their little terrorist asses. Not even close. Try again, and we’ll see.
I have no problems letting them starve in the dark.
dr. pournelle said bread and circuses is the only way any candidate can win anymore.
“its maniacs all the way down. :(”
With you at the bottom.
but see, mojo, that is teh democracy in action.
not workin is it?
and if it doesn’t work in Palestine, wtf makes us think it will work in Iraq?
“Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/20 @ 8:08 pm #
and if it doesn’t work in Palestine, wtf makes us think it will work in Iraq?”
Because we’ve beaten al Queda and the Mookster.
Kept the terrorist out of power.
Unlike the idiot Pales who voted thiers in.
Oh, and the Iranian Quds moles are getting their asses kicked, too.
Just an FYI.
Because we’ve beaten al Queda and the Mookster.
is that how you see this?
GW’s position is that democracy enables freedom.
Iraq is a social engineering experiment, not a war.
In Palestion, free elections enabled the population to choose terrorists.
Freedom to choose.
shouldn’t you at least say “they” [the Iraqis] have beaten…..
it isn’t our fight.
it’s theirs, right?
Democracy isn’t a magic elixir, nishi. It’s just the best system available.
“Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/20 @ 8:24 pm #
Because we’ve beaten al Queda and the Mookster.
is that how you see this?”
No, this is how I see reality.
You know, the thing that, no matter how hard you wish, just refuses to go away.
“It’s never a good idea to put reality up for grabs. There may come a time when you need it.”
“Comment by nishizonoshinji on 5/20 @ 8:25 pm #
shouldn’t you at least say “they†[the Iraqis] have beaten…..
it isn’t our fight.
it’s theirs, right?”
Did you study Stupid at college, nishinazi?
Or maybe my previous guess is right after all.
nishi is a failed Turing test.
No, nishi is just an entity that can’t put all of its thoughts together in one place, and must instead write a full season of 24 just to assemble an idea.
/shrug
the Iraqis put shari’a law into their constitution too.
democracy in action.
and no, mojo, a republic would be much better.
since ima neoplatonist ill quote the Republic…there are three forms of government…and their perversions..and the perversion of a republic…is a democracy.
problem is, GW is selling “democracy” as the all purpose terrorist cleaner upper.
an it aint so, is it?
“problem is, GW is selling “democracy†as the all purpose terrorist cleaner upper.”
See what I mean?
An intelligent program wouldn’t produce something like that.
Like any good system a republic has it’s faults, but they’re survivable for the greatest part. It’s self-correcting, though it may take a while. It definitely increases the probability of “the greatest good for the greatest number”, at least.
Which is probably why it’s de rigeur these days – even the most depraved tin-pot dictators tend to cloak themselves in it’s trappings, though never the substance. Saddam got 100% of the vote. Mugabe wins by a landslide. The UN applauds.
But they can’t fool the people who really count – their own.
“since ima neoplatonist ill quote the Republic…there are three forms of government…and their perversions..and the perversion of a republic…is a democracy.”
…Except you’re quoting Aristotle’s Politics.
No comment.
That said, I’m not on the ‘Democracy train’ either. There is no magic sauce, it’s nothing but a process of majority rule whose results reflect the society in which it is held. Nothing more. But we rarely recognize the distinction between democracy and republicanism any longer in this country, so no surprise we’d attempt to export the former.
And make no mistake about it – regardless of rhetoric, the national security teams in both parties are currently operating under the assumption that that they’re going to midwife democratic and general societal transformation in the Middle East as the cure-all to terrorism.
In the face of such unaniminity, who am I to be so presumptuous to tell them they’re a bunch of self-centered, arrogant schmucks who are in way over their heads.
The idea that they are incapable of some sort of representative self government is also the height of arrogance.
and the idea that it must be a western form of government is even more arrogant.
see Ataturk and Turkish secularism.
oops MlR is right….i disremembered.
oh yesss, to Plato, democracy was not a perversion but an ineveitable degeneration.
merci for the correction, MlR.
The nishit seems hellbent on proving she is a mental midget on every topic.
It’s a fact that Al Qaeda looked to Mesopotamia/the land between 2 rivers/Iraq as the would be center for establishment of the Ummah. More lately, with its decline in Iraq and Iraqis themselves becoming fed up with the slaughtering thugs, Al Q has focused more on Somalia, even Sudan as a place to set up shop.
Neither as desirable, I would think, for establishment of the new Islamic empire.
Of course Al Q and radical Islamists in general would be thrilled with the election of a more compliant US President.
but my point in simple form is, if democracy is supposed to get rid of terrorists in Iraq, why does’t it get rid of terrorists in Plalestine?
but who said Obama would be compliant?
negotiation is not appeasement.
It is simplistic to say “democracy was supposed to get rid of terrorists in Iraq” (that really wasn’t the point) and then to conflate that somehow with Hamas’ organized campaign to win in Gaza. (intimidation, brainwashing and strongarming were used in effecting the Hamas’ victory, it was hardly an exercise in “democracy”)
“Negotiation” with terrorists bent only on destruction of everything that isn’t it is a myth. However, terrorists can enjoy the negotiation game immensely. See years (decades even) of diddling around with Yasser Arafat.
Maybe the terrorists outnumber the peace-lovin’ people in Palestine.
but my point in simple form is
All of you points are in simple form.
but who said Obama would be compliant?
negotiation is not appeasement.
I do not expect a rational answer, complete sentences, or even punctuation. But, I am curious. When one party’s stated goals and objectives are the complete annihilation of the Jooooooooooooos (in this case), how do you negotiate? An agreement to only kill most Joooooos. Some Jooooooooooos?
The Palestinian terrorists (Sunnis now supplied by Shiite Iran) don’t seem to particularly care how many of their own women and children are “martyred” in its pursuit of destruction of Israel.
When their own people are killed in an Israeli retaliatory attack, it is actually good PR for them in the world press, which seems to view Palestinians as perpetual victims instead of fanatics determined to do what it says in the Hamas charter, wipe the “Zionist entity” from the Earth.
I do feel sorry for the majority of Palestinians as they are, in fact, victims. Victims of the terrorists who dominate them and are responsible for their ongoing misery and poverty.
tanstaafl.
It is nothing like that.
Hamas just provided better health and welfare services, exactly like Hizb’allah does.
the PA has alalways been wholly corrupt and any aid that gets the to citizens is watered down with graft and baksheesh.
there were internation observers for the election.
#169: So you are saying that the Palestinians continued support of Hamas is bullshit? Every poll imaginable has been taken, and the results are that Palestinians dig Hamas. They won. They love them some crazy terrorist bombers. To them, electing lunatics is excercising their democratic rights and responsibilities. I think Nishi’s point is that democracy does not always acheive results that are good or even somewhat reasonable. People can be fucking dumbasses.
nishit:
Calling yourself a neo-Platonist does not make you one. The views you’ve oulined here are inconsistent with Platonism, neo- or otherwise.
You really are much more a crass materialist.
victimhood is good propaganda, true.
Hamas and Hizb’allah also both know their target populations very well.
It’s just blood, circuses, and grievance politics on an extreme scale.
…and since MIR pointed out that you can’t even quote Plato when you think you are, I suspect that your typing/spelling “skilz” have let you down again and you actually ascribe to the philosophy of Disney’s lovable dog, Pluto.
That’s it, you’re a neo-Plutonist.
WWPD?
which we are partially insulated from because we have a republic.
my main point is that it is hypocritical in the extreme for the Bush admin to shunn and refuse to speak to Hamas until some initial condition is ment.
Hamas represents the will of the people expressed in a free DEMOCRATIC election.
“Hamas just provided better health and welfare services, exactly like Hizb’allah does.”
Providing services/schools etc. is part of the shtick of both Hamas and Hezbollah.
Receiving these “services”, you are beholden to the organization.
It is how Arafat “ruled”, protectionism and favoritism, it is how Hezbollah maintains in south Lebanon.
It is a far cry from a healthy kind of society.
However (somewhat irrelevantly) I might add that Hillary and Barry O would like to create a kind of beholden-ness amongst the citizens in this country. Where your individual life comes to be more and more dominated by the federal government.
Scary shit, and the Founders tried to build an organization and a document (aka the Constitution) that would preclude such a travesty.
dur, Cowboy…who was Aristotle’s teacher again?
i mixed up the quotes, they say the same thing.
“the Founders tried to build an organization and a document (aka the Constitution)”
sure, a constitutional republic.
and your point being?
tell me agin why the Bush admin refuses to recognize the democratically elected Hamas government?
“So you are saying that the Palestinians continued support of Hamas is bullshit?”
No, I said that there was strongarming and intimidation in the Hamas victory.
You’re not allowed to say you’re against Hamas in Gaza. That would set you up for serious personal misery.
However, you will occasionally see the Palestinian voice that echoes my own take on the situation, that the true source of their ongoing misery is the fanatics among them.
Well-said. I think the single largest fuckup in Iraq was the implicit assumption that democracy would cure everything, and that folks would just glom on to democracy given the chance. This turned out to be…not entirely true. Partially true, but what dominated our involvement in Iraq was the rush to fill the tyrannical power vacuum.
Which brings to mind something said by Jefferson concerning the tree of liberty. You can’t give liberty away. It’s not that Iraqis didn’t want liberty, it’s that they didn’t immediately stand up as a people and kill the factions that stood between them and liberty.
I’d be just fine with it if they’d pick up their respective AKs and take control of their own collective fates, and tell us to take a hike. I’d be just fine with us taking said hike, at that point.
I think there’s a certain amount of overlap between what Lisa is saying and what nishi is saying, and to that extent at least, what nishi is saying isn’t teh stoopid.
OTOH nishi was paraphrasing Aristotle, who thought the best form of government was kingship. Who does nishi want to be king?
tanstaafl, there is a whole Fatah contingent that disagrees with Hamas all the time.
they disagree with assault rifles in the street even. you can consider it a two party system.
but Fatah lost.
again, there were international observers.
The election was fair, free and democratic.
#175: Didn’t Nikita Kruschev vow to bury the United States? We still “talked” to him. As a matter of fact, while we continued to chat with the saber-rattling Soviets, we continued to build up our military. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The “Barack is an efette surrender monkey” meme is funny as hell, but kinda bullshit.
Hamas and Fatah duked it out in Gaza.
Hamas guys tote their big guns and a lot of kneecaps were shot out. Charming.
(adios for the nonce)
dur, Slart, the concept of the philosopher king comes from Pythagoras actually, and both Plato and Aristotle endorse it.
Ironically, the Pythagoreans were massacred and their works destroyed by Kylon and the first democrats.
Did i say i wanted a philosopher king?
Pakistan’s quasidemocracy doesnt actually prevent terrorists and islamists, and you all pretty much deride the Palestian democracy as flawed.
Iraq’s constitution has shari’a in it also.
I actually think the best working model for MENA would be Kemal Ataturk and Turkey’s constitutional militant secualrism.
But wearing a fez or covering for women was illegal and severely punished in the start of Ataturk’s militant secularism.
That is hardly democratic.
The base problem is (evo theory of culture terms) that democracy is a weak meme complex against any religion.
The Iraqis will vote to incorporate shari’a law, the Palestinians will vote for Hamas, the Pakis will vote for Islamists for cabinet positions and seats, and vote for shari’a law, the lebanese will include Hizb’allah in any representative government.
So to paraphrase Kyle from South Park, either it is all democracy, or none of it is.
175: Didn’t Nikita Kruschev vow to bury the United States? We still “talked†to him. As a matter of fact, while we continued to chat with the saber-rattling Soviets, we continued to build up our military. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Unlike Mother Russia, the Pali’s continue to kill Joooooos and are actively engaged in terrorist actions against Israel. Their rhetoric matches their actions. I do not recall daily Russian homicide bombers in the streets of Atlanta and Houston.
The “Barack is an efette surrender monkey†meme is funny as hell, but kinda bullshit.
Racist.
It really isn’t kind of bullshit, since he vows on all that is holy to surrender in Iraq shortly after taking office.
nishit – You really are a mental midget.
and that is why the US should talk to Hamas.
Now, Iran.
refusing to talk to ‘Nejad just gives him leverage over the Iranian population in the form of national pride.
He can tell his population that it’s the Big White Bwana theme all over again.
The Iranian population in largely young, largely hooked up, and largely disatisfied with ‘Nejad and the mullahs.
So don’t give ‘Nejad ammo for his campaign to present the West as disrespecting and looking down on the Iranian population.
umm…JD, that was Lisa, not me.
nishit – I am aware of that. Just pointing out that you are a mental midget is reflexive, even when speaking to someone else. Why should we talk to terrorists?
and, i mean seriously….talking to the US is like some sort of reward?
dur, not a big enough carrot.
JD i just explained that.
either it is all democracy, or none of it is.
you can’t just pick the democracies that are congruent to approve of.
Poor nishi — your murdering thug heroes are losing and it’s just driving you batshit, isn’t it?
Maybe you can find a picture of a cute one to wear on a tee shirt.
congruent with western thought i mean.
and, i mean seriously….talking to the US is like some sort of reward?
Yes, it is.
SBP, i totally believe in the Petraeus/Kilcullen model.
But that means we have to leave at some point.
I think the model is working and will continue to work.
But we can’t be forever-babysitteres.
But that means we have to leave at some point.
You mean the way we did in Germany and South Korea?
Spies – You know the blathering memebot is just going to make something up. I know better, yet still find myself responding … On behalf of all transtesticled bisexual goats, I denounce myself.
JD, it is not a cost-viable reward for either Hamas or Iran.
Or they would meet the pre-conditions.
Both entities are getting propaganda value out of the US “trying to bully the XXXX[fill in the blank] people into giving up XXXXX[fill in the blank].”
neither germany or SK employed the Petraeus/Kilcullen model of social engineering, SBP.
neither germany or SK employed the Petraeus/Kilcullen model of social engineering, SBP.
If you actually beleived that (which you don’t), you’d want to let Petraeus decide when to pull out the troops.
Poseur.
Fraud.
Liar.
You practically quoted a passage that listed democracy as the red-headed stepson of kingship. Did you quote it because you disagreed with it? Shockingly, that didn’t communicate.
FWIW, I completely disagree with the notion that isolating regimes that you disagree with is the best policy. You always talk. Jaw, jaw is better than war, war. There are minor exceptions to this kind of thing, but after a government has shown itself to be stable, there’s nothing to be accomplished by pretending that its illegitimacy matters in any material way. You weren’t going to foment another revolution in Cuba, for exaple, by pretending that Castro wasn’t really the legitimate head of government there. You don’t necessarily have to have your President sit down with their despot to have talks; that’s what State is there for. You can send some lower-level diplomat, even, rather than SecState. I think McCain is mistaken in this regard, in much the same way that Bush is.
Talking with Hamas, though…I don’t know. Perhaps we could send someone, but we’d probably get his head back via FedEx. Hamas is way, way down on the queue of who we should be talking to, but aren’t.
No, nishit. Their real propoganda coup will come when they make Baracky look like a complete ass after he negotiates with them, and they continue to blow up the Joooooooooooooooos.
“Well-said. I think the single largest fuckup in Iraq was the implicit assumption that democracy would cure everything, and that folks would just glom on to democracy given the chance. This turned out to be…not entirely true.”
And Conservatives, of whom I am one, should have been the best prepared to point out the long list of problems with this plan. Above all, that it dependends on the constitution, self-restraint, and other cultural qualities of the people in question. It is also incredibly unpredictable and unmanagable, and stands a large chance of opening up Pandora’s Box.
Eggheads in Washington can’t even manage Americans, yet they were going to do it in what was formerely on of the most closed and brutal societies in the world.
“Which brings to mind something said by Jefferson concerning the tree of liberty. You can’t give liberty away. It’s not that Iraqis didn’t want liberty, it’s that they didn’t immediately stand up as a people and kill the factions that stood between them and liberty.”
Amongst other things, because they can’t come to a common definition of liberty. Most people want the personal freedom, which they’ll exercise to various ends. Far fewer are willing to give it to other people, least of all their domestic “enemies.”
In fairness, however, I can’t see another administration doing much differently five years ago. It’s too hardwired into our foreign policy genetics at this point. Besides, that was a big part of the Administration’s conceived purpose of invading Iraq in the first place – as a mechanism of indirectly solving the region’s greater problems.
“FWIW, I completely disagree with the notion that isolating regimes that you disagree with is the best policy. You always talk. Jaw, jaw is better than war, war.”
Slart, once again I’m going to break ranks and agree with you. Besides, occasionally you might get positive externalities. Talking with Gorbachev gave him the rope to hang himself through perestroika and glasnost. Most of the time, you aren’t going to get anythind of note, considering the nature and goals of these governments. It also doesn’t require higher-level public forums, but can be done without publicity (we’ve already done this with the Iranians).
The problem for me is not that Obama wants to ‘talk’ with characters such as Hezbollah, but that he’s pretty clearly naive towards what he’s going to get. He thinks he ‘understands’ them, but he understands shit. They’re going to take everything he offers, stab him in the back, and carry on as before. The only question is whether he’ll be smart enough to realize how badly he’s being played. Personally, I think he’s too invested in his view of the world to do so.
I dunno if that was the expectation so much as the hope.
I think the expectation was that unless we failed very, very badly in Iraq we would have managed to disrupt a longstanding pattern of dysfunction with, at the very least, a more pro-Western flavor of dysfunction.
I think we haven’t quite achieved the hope, but we’ve done quite a bit better than “a more pro-Western flavor of dysfunction.”
You can send some lower-level diplomat, even, rather than SecState. I think McCain is mistaken in this regard, in much the same way that Bush is.
Isn’t the argument over Presidential-level talks?
Where do we have nobody talking on our behalf? (Cuba?)
“I dunno if that was the expectation so much as the hope.”
Ithink it depends a lot on which individual you’re talking about. Unfortunately, it will be a long time, if ever, before we get relatively dispassionate histories.
you’d want to let Petraeus decide when to pull out the troops.
I do.
And he will. No matter who is president that is what will happen.
It is obvious that the Petraeus/Kilcullen model is working.
It is also obvious that our bread-and-circuses political system forces candidates to speak very carefully inorder to get elected.
But GW will not get any immediate props.
Likely whoever becomes president (and i think it will be O) will take props for “winning” in Iraq.
you’d want to let Petraeus decide when to pull out the troops.
I do.
And he will. No matter who is president that is what will happen.
Wrong. Liar. Your Obamessiah and Hillary both vow to ignore the Generals and surrender immediately.
Dammit, nishi, the word “recognition” has a specific meaning in diplomacy. Swapping back and forth between the technical and colloquial meanings, sometimes in the same pseudosentence, does not leave a favorable impression of either your intellect or your honesty. Go to the blackboard and write one thousand times: “Palestine” is not a State. In fact, all three of the quasi-state entities — the PA, Fatah, and Hamas — have specifically rejected statehood, specifically because it means the assumption of responsibility (although they have a whole list of self-justifying blather to obscure that).
Oh, and by the way, we do “talk” to Hamas and Fatah on a daily basis. We even send them money, not all of which is filtered through the UN. “Talking to Hamas” on the terms you and Obama appear to be advocating is a matter of the Chief of a duly constituted and recognized State entering into substantive negotiations with a random gang of street thugs who demand all the advantages of Statehood and reject any and all of the responsibilities. The distinction is not trivial.
Oh, and Slartibartfast and several others — dammit, do your best to climb out of the “plans” trap as exemplified by John Kerry. Sometimes plans don’t work, and mixing that up with “it was a bad plan” and/or “the plan was executed badly” is a recipe for paralysis, not a way to move forward. This is not to say one cannot criticize a bad plan or be scathing about the way it was carried out, but hindsight is always 20-20, and criticizing people for not having had time machines when the plan was formulated is neither just nor helpful.
The original Bush plan was based on maximal noninvolvement, because Bush is not an imperialist of any stripe. US forces were to remove the specific irritant (Saddam and the Ba’ath) and step aside, leaving the Iraqis to build a Government that suited them — which Bush and others specifically and repeatedly stated would be unlikely to closely resemble the way we do it. Neither Bush nor any of the advisors he listens to advocated taking over the place and running it ourselves, because that is an imperial ambition. One could possibly fault them for sticking with something that obviously wasn’t working for entirely too long, but a “hands off” strategy inherently requires a long time before the results come in. Besides, the “surge” strategy adopted later could not have succeeded without the Awakenings, and those in turn would not (because could not) have occurred until the people involved had real-life experience with the actual policies of al Qaeda et al. The Awakenings, in fact, constitute a vindication of the original strategy — which was to allow the Iraqis to rebuild their own institutions. Carping because it took longer and came out messier than originally conceived is simply nastiness for its own sake.
Regards,
Ric
And he will. No matter who is president that is what will happen.
Obama has said the opposite. So you don’t believe him? What else is he lying about?
Eh? I said nothing about plans. I was talking about expectations, and we all know that we had Great ones.
But yes, point taken about paralysis. Bush did, though, repeatedly make reference to democracy in the context of Iraq, which was and still is a risky position to take.
with a random gang of street thugs who demand all the advantages of Statehood and reject any and all of the responsibilities.
bzzzzzt! wrong. a duly ELECTED gang of street thugs.
The Awakenings, in fact, constitute a vindication of the original strategy
no, ric locke, wrong again.
It was Petraeus and Kilcullen’s “armed social work” model that led to the Awakenings, not Bushian non-involvement.
the admin came up with the Petraeus/Kicullen model because non-involvement wasnt working.
actully the model arose in the military, and the CinC adopted it.
bottom up, or grassroots design.
Eh. It all comes down to The Decider™, I suppose.
…but as I Decided™ on whether I was in favor of the Iraq operation, I had The Expectation™. The WMD business was aimed at getting other people’s support, not mine.
You can send some lower-level diplomat, even, rather than SecState. I think McCain is mistaken in this regard, in much the same way that Bush is.
At the risk of asking a really stupid question twice, where do we not have at least some lower-level diplomat talking on our behalf?
Nishi, I don’t believe your take on the “Awakenings” fits with Gen. Petraeus take. He agrees with Ric Locke. But then he is scrupulously honest, so he would.
I don’t know, Maybee, but the implication is that we don’t, somewheres.
My son and his stuffed animals just took a vote and decided that they’re allowed to eat cotton candy and s’mores for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. My son, incidentally, is the duly elected party official for his bedroom menagerie.
He demanded I negotiate with him on these culinary points.
Which I did, in effect, by ignoring his request entirely.
Refusal to “negotiate” is itself an act of negotiation. You want more concrete talks — the kind with words and the like? Stop blowing shit up, change your charter, and lay off the kiddie shows advocating blowing up Jews. Or in my the case of my son and his rogue cabal, try advocating something reasonable, like s’mores filled with sprouts and served with a side of carrot juice, say.
Unfortunately for me — and this hasn’t been covered in the thread — the international media stepped in, with help from some of the domestic media, and depicted my son and his stuffed animals as victims of an unyielding ideologue, a victim of Parental Hegemony and Bullying from a position of power.
To which I’ve responded with a new article for Commentary entitled, “Fuck Off, Anklebiters. I Don’t Talk to the Unserious”. Available in July, I think.
But Slart, you said McCain and Bush were wrong in that regard. How can they be wrong if that isn’t their position?
sure, Jeff.
But you have to make conditional negotiation cost-viable for the rogue actors.
Right now it isn’t.
Because they get propaganda value-added like this–
“the US is trying to bully the XXXX[fill in the blank] people into giving up XXXXX[fill in the blank]”
“Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy whilst looking for a really big stick”
the problem is, we don’t have the big stick.
better to strike down the propaganda engine while we look for it.
be subversive.
be machiavelli, not john wayne.
i gtg
This is a good start, Maybee.
I don’t know that we aren’t talking to Iran now, but if we are, McCain evidently doesn’t know about it.
Bullshit, and as Sdferr points out, it isn’t even an assertion made by the people executing the policy.
And that is the point where you go beyond stupid and start verging on insanity. In the first place, it has to be cost-viable for us, too — and Hamas (in particular) has already stated their price for even starting meaningful “talks”: Kill all the Jews! And their on-the-ground behavior confirms that. We offer them money to stop killing Jews; they take the money and kill Jews. We give them food and comforts, in the hope that they’ll relax and stop killing Jews; they take the goodies and go back to rocketing Sderot. You, and we, have nothing to say to Hamas that they will listen to until and unless we start killing Jews; it is their basic, fundamental, and non-negotiable demand, required before they will accept that we are entitled to talk to them. I, personally, do not volunteer, either in person or with support financial or moral, to re-open Bergen-Belsen in order to “talk with Hamas.” If you do, please be advised that the uniform regulations are strict, especially in the matter of keeping the lightning-bolt insignia polished.
Implicit in all the criticism is the notion that this is a change, that nothing like that has been done before — and that is bullshit from the get-go. For instance, trying to offer various Iraqi factions aid, shiny toys, etc. to turn them up sweet was a tactic employed from the very beginning. It didn’t work, because it couldn’t work, because from the Sunni point of view al Qaeda was offering them a better deal — and the Shi’ia were listening to the international Left, who assured them that the Ba’ath were the good guys, and they weren’t about to make common cause with their torturers.
The only genuine mistake I will concede is that Bush & Co. had a Pollyannaish misconception about the cohesiveness of Iraqi society. The primary reason for selecting Iraq as the initial schwerpunkt in the War on Terror was the historical fact that Iraqi society was remarkably cosmopolitan and sophisticated compared to the general run of Arabs, and therefore was expected to be more resilient than it turned out to be. It wasn’t apparent until well into the adventure just how severely Saddam and the Ba’ath had fragmented the Iraqi nation, separating it into identity groups (!) suspicious of one another, or how easily al Qaeda[1] could use that fragmentation to insinuate itself into the system, and it could be argued that Bush &Cie. should have known better in that respect.
[1]Yes, that’s shorthand. It ain’t that simple is the First Law of human society.
Regards,
Ric
Machiavelli was a republican. The Prince was a parody.
Beyond that, Ric’s answer stands, with the further proviso that I have no interest whatever in making conditional negotiation cost-viable for rogue states.
This is nothing more than a matter of framing: were the international press (and the Democrats and press here) to frame the issue in such a way that the propaganda switched to those on the side of liberty, the rest of the memetic dynamic would change.
I’ll hold out for those conditions, thanks, because they happen to be far less morally repugnant and cynical than the alternatives.
“The only genuine mistake I will concede is that Bush & Co. had a Pollyannaish misconception about the cohesiveness of Iraqi society. The primary reason for selecting Iraq as the initial schwerpunkt in the War on Terror was the historical fact that Iraqi society was remarkably cosmopolitan and sophisticated compared to the general run of Arabs, and therefore was expected to be more resilient than it turned out to be. It wasn’t apparent until well into the adventure just how severely Saddam and the Ba’ath had fragmented the Iraqi nation, separating it into identity groups (!) suspicious of one another, or how easily al Qaeda could use that fragmentation to insinuate itself into the system, and it could be argued that Bush &Cie. should have known better in that respect.”
“The historical fact that Iraqi society was remarkably cosmopolitan and sophisticated compared to the general run of Arabs, and therefore was expected to be more resilient than it turned out to be.”
And they got this nonsense from a bunch of cosmopolitan and sophisticated exiles, who were expected to take control of events and had every incentive to advocate an invasion. In short, the entire post-invasion plan was a pipe dream, put teogether by people who were high off what they thought was a magificent victory in Afghanistan, and who had no concept of what it takes to transform societies. Accept it, move on, and don’t do it again.
The fact we had no more than half a dozen real direct agents in Iraq, thanks to the dilution of our human intelligence programs, didn’t help things.
Balls, MlR. If all plans depend on perfect knowledge, you can neither get out of bed in the morning nor stay there, because you don’t have perfect knowledge of how the day will go. BTW how’d that plan to frogmarch Rove and/or Cheney go for you, hmm?
Well, yeah, when you and your moonbattery accept that it has worked, stop trying to f* it up, and “move on”. You won’t, of course. We’ve had forty years of listening to revisionist lies about Viet Nam; no doubt there will now be half a century of the same thing about Iraq. Some “Progressives” you are, when you can’t get past 1968 in your own minds — and have thrown “pay any price, bear any burden” in the crapper in favor of “Oh, it’s just to haaaaaaard.”
Regards,
Ric
ric’s answer is nonsense.
How does one get from a policy of “noninvolvement” to “armed social work” and the “surge”?
loony toons.
I like Niccolo.
Especially that part about not putting your trust in the faith of princes.
and just to clarify something….i am just exactly as despised on the Left when i try to talk sense to them about AGW, “torturegate” and impeach! boosh! now!
i think im really in no man’s land, some sort of idealogical interstice where the normal laws of cultural physics just don’t apply.
I have no interest whatever in making conditional negotiation cost-viable for rogue states
Nope, Game Theory 101.
need to make refusing to meet conditions for negotiation non-costviable.
theres a difference.
Well, yeah, genius. They start out able to come and go more or less freely, and they kill Jews. They get restricted from traveling, and they kill Jews. They lose their ability to be employed, and they kill Jews. They get their power and water cut off, and they kill Jews. They get restricted behind impermeable barriers, and they build rockets to kill Jews with. They get given means to be productive on their own, and they destroy them and go kill Jews. Tell me what the f* you can charge them that makes killing Jews too expensive.
“Hey, Abdallah! We killed enough Jews to make the President of the United States talk to us!”
Regards,
Ric
Maybe a good test case would be to find a commentator who really only wants attention and is more or less toxic in his/her method of spewing nonsense even while said jibber-jabber is refuted.
If all other commentators ingnored him/her, until she/he met the pre condition of using perfect grammar and arguing in good faith, what would be the result?
Now if we could only find a fitting commentator. Hmmmm.
dur, ric, you need a bigger stick.
im just recommendin shutting down the propaganda machine by talkin to them while we feel around in the dark for a REALLY big stick.
Slart-
In your link:
McCain is against Presidential level talks without preconditions. Obama is trying to make the argument that McCain and Bush are against talking with them at all, at any level.
Obama’s throwing sand in our eyes because he doesn’t want us to see he once said he’d meet with them unconditionally.
and it is more like, “hey Abdullah, we finally killed enough jews so that the US/Israeli military complex stopped enclosing our ancestral lands with the Fence and building illegal jewish settlements.”
Ric – I enjoy it much when you get a little riled up. Couple that with an absolute vivisection of nishit, and it is a great pairing. Kudos.
Again, bullshit. When Israel was first established, the Jews told the Arabs, “stay where you are, you’ll be fine, we’ve got no beef with you unless you’re Nazi sympathizers.” The Arabs said “F* that, we’re gonna get out of the way while our buddies kill Jews.” — which their buddies notably failed to do, leading to the present situation. The walls are there because they kept killing Jews. Israel told them, “Stop killing Jews or we’ll build a wall.” They responded by increasing the frequency of rocket attacks!
The settlements wouldn’t be an issue if the Arabs had stayed. The Jews are pretty big on property rights; settlements are built on land abandoned by Arab “refugees” that (in the view of the Israeli Right, at least) then reverted to Israel as public lands which could be homesteaded. If the Arabs had stayed, the Jews would have had to buy that land from them.
Describe a stick, nishi. The Palestinians have given up their own homesteads, the ability to get employment, the ability to move more than a few kilometers, electrical power, fresh water, food, medical care, the future of their children, and innumerable of their people shot and killed, in order to preserve the ability to kill Jews. Find me something, anything — Hell, tell me a place to look where I’ve a tiny fraction of a ghost of a chance of finding anything — that they either want more than they want to kill Jews, or that we could take away from them to make it too expensive to kill Jews. Israel and the United States have been trying for sixty years last Friday to find something like that; no doubt your incredible genius will turn it up immediately.
Regards,
Ric
McCain in the WaPo:
I don’t know that we aren’t talking to Iran now, but if we are, McCain evidently doesn’t know about it.
I adore you Slarti, but I think you’ve let Obama’s characterization of Bush and McCain’s policy influence you here. Their policy is not what Obama says it is.
A classic “Crosspatch Decision”…
And nishi: there is a difference between not having a big stick and reluctance to use the big stick. We could carpet bomb Gaza into smoking rubble in a few days, but we’d really rather not. It’s a moral qualm, and probably a mistake in my opinion, but what’re you gonna do, y’know? Form a private/mercenary army and go do it free-lance? Yeah, right. That’ll fly.
So we put up with the murderous, childish shit. C’est la vie.