Voices of Iraq quotes a leading figure in the Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council, Jalal el-Din al-Saghier, as saying that dissolving the Mahdi Army is Moqtada al-Sadr’s responsibility, asserting that top Shiite cleric Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani has nothing to do with this militia as al-Sadr did not consult the SIIC when he established it:
“Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr established this army and it is only him who has to dissolve it,†he explained.
“Al-Sistani asked al-Mahdi army to give in weapons to the government,†the Shiite official said.
So now you know what al-Sadr spokesman Salah al-Obeidi actually meant when he said al-Sadr has consulted with Iraq’s Shiite clerical leadership “and they refused that.”
Foreign policy mavens like Juan Cole and Matthew Yglesias, who fell for the Sadrist propaganda, will be heralding the good news shortly. Or not.
(h/t AJ Strata.)
oh sure, they say that now. ;D
Oh, he never meant Sistani. He meant his own clerics. Really, did anyone ever think he meant Sistani?
somewhat related, watching bits of the Petreaus/Crocker thing the other night, it was entertaining to watch Crocker try to correct Biden about just what party Maliki works for.
Sistani Does Join Maliki And Isolates Sadr
Bumped to Top, More Updates Below!…
Oh my. It’s been a bad day for the enemy. Especially the ones running our Senate and House, and against McCain for President.
Lawsy!
I don’t know if any of this contradicts anything Sadr and Cole might have said. Sistani is more or less a powerless figurehead I am guessing. Sadr has his militias, Maliki’s his and everybodie’s using the US to keep their tidy oil profits unexposed to the ledgers and shipping it off to Jordon or whereever the well-off Iraqi minority keeps their families our of harms way. Heard an international expert on crimesyndicate speak about Iraq that way..name? but book is “McMafia” or something like that. Bush’s antiTransparency rules for banking has come back to bite the US big time as we don’t know where the oil money in Iraq is going and certainly not the Iranian’s funding for Iraqi’s movements either.
If you trust GWBush’s, Sadr’s and Maliki’s pronouncements, then how about buying some life insurance from me? All payments insured that I’ll spend them.
What the hell are you babbling about?
Shorter dogmadave: Look over there!
dd,
Pop quiz: Which group is aligned with Sistani, the SIIC or the Sadrists?
I believe that if Sadr formally renounces Sistani’s primacy, he basically declares war on the Muslim-ism of Sistani and his entire faction.
The Iraqis suffered al Q killing thousands of Iraqis, not to mention disfiguring, maiming, and torturing as many again, in the name of an “outside” religious authority. Al Q actively fomented civil war by targeting both Sunni and Shia populations, pilgrims, shrines, and mosques.
Al Q is just about dead in Iraq now. Sadr may be a mook, but he has a Mr. History lesson right in front of him about what happens to people other than the coalition who attempt to shoot and bomb their way to primacy. Further, the Iraqi government, police, Sons of Iraq, and Iraqi army (with coalition firepower on the hook) are more likely every day to be the agencies the Sadr gangs will be dealing with… and the observance of firepower restraint and prisoner protocols by the indigenous forces is already widely acknowledged to be an area that “needs improvement”.
I am guardedly optimistic. Hopefully, Sadr will have a shaving accident which results in the tragic leveling of his mosque, the madrassa next door, and a busload of al Quds force maggots who he happened to be hosting for the weekend…
I wonder where Ayatollah Khamenei falls on this.
dave, why don’t you just drop your pants a take a big crap on the thread. At least the smell might warn people off, and either way what you’re leaving here is coming directly out of your ass.
dataless dave: Chew on this:
This has been coming for some time now which makes Mookie Thug Sada’s continued presence in Iran noteworthy. I’m of the opinion that the reason he keeps calling for a cease fire is an overwhelming concern that his ragtag mahdi thug army would be targeted and devastated as they do not have widespread support for a country wide uprising.
The message seems to be that Iraqis are tired of both outside influences and sectarian violence. Sistani is a beloved figure in Shi’a circles in Iraq and, ultimately, possesses more influence over the average Iraqi Shi’a than Thuggy al Sadsack. Thuggy, being a reasonably bright guy, will end up posturing, threatening and then cutting the best deal he can for his religious gangsters.
When that happens wait for the “no political solution in sight” drum beaters to change the subject very quickly.
Sistani is more or less a powerless figurehead I am guessing.
The streak continues. He is the Tiger Woods of wrongness, this one.
The farce is strong with this one, yes it is.
Yea. BMoe, ya gotta love the credibility and power in more or less and I am guessing.
Also the intellectual ignorance of assuming that a religious “figurehead” is the same thing as a political “figurehead.”
Hint dataless: Religious “figureheads” in Shi’a still wield a lot of influence. Thuggy al Sadsack may be louder and more quoted but Sistani ultimately controls more parliamentary bodies and has much more religious gravitas than the Mookmeister will ever know.
Really, data, you would fit in so much better with Hansen at GISS.
What do you do in your day job?
More from the Long War Journal.
Sistani spoke through Jalal el Din al Saghier, a senior leader of the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, a rival political party to the Sadrist movement. Saghier was clear that Sistani did not sanction the Mahdi Army and called for it to disarm.
“Sistani has a clear opinion in this regard; the law is the only authority in the country,” Saghier told Voices of Iraq, indicating Sistani supports Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki and the government in the effort to sideline the Mahdi Army. “Sistani asked the Mahdi army to give in weapons to the government.”
Sayeed Ali al-Sistani has always previously held himself apart from politics.
When the Iraqi government was being formed Sistani was critized by many rightside blogs for preferring to remain a completely religious figure.
al-Sistani is the titular head of the Shi’ia twelver sect, the most populous sect of al-Islam.
Muqtada al-Sadr is revered in Iraq largely due to his father, a great Imam, who was martyred by Saddam.
if u read al-Sadr’s webpage, it is filled with glowing commendations of al-Khoumeni.
al-Sadr would like to replace al-Sistani as the spiritual head of the Shi’ia…..so would Khoumeni, but they doesnt have the genetics.
I have for the past three years or so been really, really sorry I, and the West in general, did not more know about Ali al-Sistani from the beginning.
His rank among Shi’ia translates as “Grand Ayatollah”. Islam doesn’t have a pope-equivalent, but if they had one Sistani would be on the shortlist. There are only five Grand Ayatollahs at present (Khameini is one). Sunni treat Shi’ia ranks with some contempt — the only “ranks” in Sunni Islam are “imam” teacher and “shaykh” leader, and the dark suspicion is that the Shi’ia hierarchy is composed of closet fire-worshipers (probably correct), but Sistani’s scholarship and gravitas is such that when he speaks even Sunni pay attention.
Sistani is also an Iranian. He is in Iraq because he thinks the “Islamic Republic of Iran” is a bunch of crap — that the clerics of Iran are spending ‘way too much time dealing with secular Government, to the detriment of their faith and scholarship — so he came to Iraq to be near the shrine of the Imam Ali, possibly the holiest place in all of Shi’ia Islam after Makkah. If there is anybody in Islam who believes in the separation of Mosque and State Sistani is it, and he doesn’t, really; he just thinks religious leaders have better things to do than deal with minutiae.
There are four other people in the world who have as much respect and influence within Shi’ia Islam as Sistani does, but nobody with more. Unfortunately he is old and very ill, and that combined with the lack of respect he received in the early goings makes him more difficult for us to get along with than absolutely necessary, and reduces the amount of force he can exert. He got along well with al-Sadr padre, although they were rivals to a certain extent. One of Mookie’s main goals is to get around al-Sistani, because it was al-Sistani who told his daddy young Muqutada would never make imam, let alone rise through the ranks.
By all accounts Muqtada is in Qom, being tutored by the imameen to try to achieve rank in the Shi’ia system. It almost makes me feel sorry for his tutors, because the man is impatient and bull-headed, and as stupid as people with those qualities usually are — his only qualifications are as a bully. He owes his prominence almost entirely to the Western Press, not just because he’s celebrated as anti-American but because the entire focus of the Western media has been on how vile and cruel the Americans are being to the Sunni Ba’athists who spent thirty years murdering and torturing Shi’ia, and Muqtada al-Sadr was for a long time almost the only voice even pretending to speak up for the poor of Sadr City and surrounding areas. That wasn’t enough, though, so he went to the Iranians for help — and was too stupid and weak to prevent them from taking over.
Sistani isn’t an Iraqi patriot, but he does think the ayatollahs running the Islamic Republic are on the wrong track. He has lent, and will continue to lend, his influence toward attempts to create a stable Government, so long as he has assurances that Shi’ia won’t be sucking hind tit any more under the New Regime. He will not lend his influence toward extending the power of the Iranian mullahs.
Maliki is a Shi’ia and respects Sistani; he also knows Mookie is an ignorant thug not fit to sweep up his father’s footprints. Most important, Maliki has had a taste of power and wishes to continue and extend it. His first attempt didn’t go too well, but remember he has lots of smart advisers around him. If Sistani says the Mahdi Army should disband and respect the law of the country, the Shi’ia who follow him will join the Kurds and Sunni to see that that takes place, if possible. The outcome isn’t really in doubt, except to what extent Iranian influence will remain, but Mookie and his allies at the NYT and AP are going to get a lot of poor and ignorant Shi’ia killed before the point gets resolved.
Regards,
Ric
pretty good ric, but the coalition has certainly recognized Sayeed Ali’s worth from the beginning. At times we have actively sought Sistani’s intercession in political matters and been refused. Sistani has worked hard to avoid becoming viewed as an American puppet, which is how some Iraqis see Maliki. Sistani has always kept a measured distance from anything that might be percieved as excessive western influence.
the other thing ric doesnt cover is that Sistani’s position is in good part hereditary, measured in closeness to the Line of teh Imam. I doubt Sistani ever told Muqtada’s father that his son would not make an imam. But Muqtada has neither the genetics or the scholarship to become one of the five.
and the dark suspicion is that the Shi’ia hierarchy is composed of closet fire-worshipers
no, the Sunni/Shi’ia rift devolves from the struggle for control over the caliphate, and the assassination of Muhammed’s grandson, Ali.
the Shi’ia lost.
pay attention john mccain.
;)
Pay attention, nishi.
The Iranians/Persians treat Ahuramazda/Zoroastrianism about like we do Old Northern Europe’s animistic religions — lots of festivals etc. come from there, with the serial numbers filed off. Christmas tree, anywoden? For the Iranians it’s various celebrations of fire.
Shi’ia religious ranks are pretty much a simplified version of the Zoroastrian priesthood, which is what I was on about.
Regards,
Ric
Ric,
The Iranians/Persians treat Ahuramazda/Zoroastrianism about like we do Old Northern Europe’s animistic religions  lots of festivals etc. come from there, with the serial numbers filed off.
Oh, that’s a good way to put it.
One thing more, before I forget to address it.
We occasionally see suggestions that the whole business could have been headed off by whacking Mookie early in the game, when he first started giving trouble, or that we could handle it by returning his CO2 to the atmosphere now.
That’s been tried. It won’t work.
Mohammed Sadeq al-Sadr, Muqtada’s father, was a well-respected leader of the Shi’ia community; although the parallels aren’t anywhere near exact, think of him as a Shi’ia Liberation Theologist. As an important religious leader the Ba’ath hierarchy had to think twice before doing anything about it, and he was an important advocate for (especially) the poor Shi’ia. Finally, though, Saddam & Co. had the third thought and assassinated him. Muqtada then went into hiding among the poor of Sadr City and began stirring up trouble as an agitator; it was the beginning of his rise in influence.
If he were killed off now, any tenuous gains made by the Awakenings among the Shi’ia, especially in and around Baghdad, would be totally lost. If the killer were known as a devout Shi’ia it is barely possible that a firestorm could be averted; if it were anyone else “trouble in River City” would be dead certain (adjective chosen). If it’s a realistic option it is the absolute last one before nuking the place.
BTW nishi, I do get things wrong from time to time, and when I do I appreciate correction; but I don’t lie, and I don’t just make shit up, y’dig?
Regards,
Ric
ok, i agree, but that is not the deep bloody divide between the sunni and the shi’ia.
and that is why, the Iranians might fund al-Q, in the enemy of my enemy sense, but would never allow them into Iran proper for training, or set up training camps for them there.
mccain shud get that by now.
plus, most persians reguard arabs as …..well… ignorant primitives.
an Iranian friend of mine described it as being like oldsouth whites reguarded “the dirty niggers”.
and yes, ric is correct, in the immediate aftermath of the fall of baghdad Sayeed Muqtada was implicated in the chopping assassination of a rival cleric.
the coalition attempted to get the Iraqis to detain him and try him, but they refused.
and the coalition could not do it.
you so funky and down wit it, but Iranian friends is different from the Qudsy ones
sry, darwins, al-Q is still not being trained in Iran.
sry, darwins, al-Q is still not being trained in Iran
Poseur.
Fraud.
Liar.
Get. Help.
Sayeed Ali. wasn’t that the i’innocent terrorist’ framed by the Caspian oil
cartel in Season 2 of ’24, or the jihadi nuclear terrorist in Season 6
released from a stateside Guantanamo.
Mo McClatchy, Cole, Yglesias, Reuters,& the NY Times were wrong again;and in the same way: what a surprise. But you see they’re in the ‘reality based community. not the real community. much like the fact based dramatization.
Ric –
Sir, if you could point me to a few sources, I’d be eternally grateful. I’ll be hitting libraries this weekend, so if any book titles come to mind that would be great. It suddenly occurs to me that my knowledge of Grand Ayatollah Sistani, his posture vis a vis earthly politics, and Shia theology in general … sucks.
I can’t take batting practice in your league, but I’m always willing to try.
I had previously assumed that Sistani, personally, viewed earthly politics as an external factor along the lines of a distraction to his practice of Islam, more a bother than anything he was interested in participating in. Would that be near right?
The idiot continues to make pronouncements on subjects she knows nothing about.
Tmj, I haven’t made a formal study. Most of what I know (or assume) falls under the category of “privileged communication” combined with making hypotheses and watching what really happens. I’ve had a couple of Shi’ia try to convert me, one Persian (as he insisted) and one pre-Hezbollah Lebanese. The data is out there, mostly on Islamic web sites.
The process can lead to some spectacular errors. I originally thought Qutb and the Waha’abbeen were negligible, for instance, and it took a long time to puzzle out the Sadrs — it wasn’t until the last couple days that I’ve had any appreciation of Muqtada other than “thug” because I didn’t realize how flat f*ing brave his father was.
All of the standard texts are useful. Even Juan Cole has a lot of insight, and Robert Fisk is nearly invaluable. You just have to keep in mind that:
1) The “blind men and the elephant” story applies in spades. Pay close attention to observations and try to discount interpretations, and when two observations disagree or contradict, assume both are correct but distorted by the mental states of the observers;
2) The Marxist/classist theory is completely, flatly, and comprehensively wrong, and observations filtered through that lens should be inverted as a first approximation;
3) One of the byproducts of Europeans bashing one another for a century and a half has been that the tribal systems of Europe got so thoroughly smashed that we no longer have any real clue as to how such things work, although it helps to have an appreciation for gangbangers;
4) Those are people, not idealized abstractions, just as heroic, villainous, brilliant, stupid, wise, and insane as we are. That does not mean they have the same goals and intentions we do; it does mean they move on them the same way we do, with maximum confusion, inefficiency, and contradiction, and with occasional strokes of brilliance.
Works for me, so far.
Regards,
Ric
Fat fingers. s/century and a half/millenium and a half/(2)
Regards,
Ric
Thanks, Ric, I’ll work on this from my end.
FWIW, I always understood that Sadr the senior was possibly the only man in Iraq not only not in terror if Saddam, but not likely to be killed because of the loyalty of his followers and the likelihood they’d go to the wall trying to avenge him.
I have always had tremendous respect for the individual toughness that is so common throughout the history of the Arabs. Looking from the West, I find myself thinking that I’m not the only one who might mistake efficiency of action for laziness, or even treachery, when trying to understand the past politics of the arc.
When you know how a negotiation has to end, and that it is going to end bad, there’s not a lot of return on playing nice. Westerners tend to lie to themselves first about what needs to be done in the face of conflict. I don’t think the Arab leaders running around today descended from people who thought that way, even briefly.
Have a fine weekend.
shut up, spies et al
I want to hear something rather than just propaganda:
Ric, and nishi…you two Go!
and kudus to tmj too for trying to understand. (pablo, you’re losing your mind…get high this weekend, please!_)
Ric+: Sadr, the younger, once addicted to video games, is indeed a thug but enlightened enough to see social and physical needs of the people in Sadr city and other poor Shiite neighborhoods had to be taken care off. Functioning like the Hezbollah of southern Lebanon, they did take care of the poor and un-/under-employed giving them a sense of purpose, unlike the fat cats alligned with the US (Chalabi, Maliki etc.)who exude a sense of entitlement and do little to share the oil wealth they are skimming. Sadrists are a minority yes but one with discipline and guns and not like the wandering loyalties of the US allies.
This isn’t exactly a recipe of success to align ourselves with those like Maliki that are skimming huge margins of income off Iraqi oil to send to Jordinian safes. Sadr, the thug, seems to be avoiding such corruption. And he’s smart enough to avoid a direct confrontation with American firepower. Eventually Iraqi’s may regain a sense of security and prosperity but most think that’ll only happen when Americans leave. (maybe they’re wrong but we have to eventually leave only to keep our own military from going nuts there).
I don’t see how anyone can see this as a victory. At most a stalemate. No one is describing this as a defeat for the US…but certainly a blotch upon the idea of a surge being successful.
alas Sistani is like pretty close to his end…and hardly a robust straw on which the US can build it’s anti-insurgancy. And Al-Q was never as important as we made them. Fuck Al-Q, they are just a symptom, not the cause. We’re facing instead a Mega-reaction from the Islamic world to their feelings of inadequacy coupled with their sense of power derived from communal beliefs, some oil wealth, underlying conservatism and a growing population (much due to the repression of women).
[…] opposition of the clerics to the Mahdi Army will likely be ignored by the Juan Coles and Matthew Yglesisases, who prefer to pass along Sadrist propaganda. The establishment media will likely do the same, […]