Reported, strangely enough, by the New York Times from an even stranger dateline — Paris, France:
After the Paris police smashed a cell suspected of sending insurgents to Iraq early in 2005, French authorities predicted a new and dangerous threat: young Muslims lured to the Iraqi battlefields who would return, radicalized, to use their newfound battlefield skills in terrorist acts inside France.
***
Now, as members of the cell are awaiting a verdict in their case, French and other European intelligence and law enforcement officials are saying those fears appear to be overblown. The logistical challenges and expense of reaching Iraq has been one deterrent, they said, particularly with Syria’s making episodic efforts to halt the use of its territory as a transit route. Compared with the thousands of European Muslims who joined the fight in Afghanistan in the 1990s through organized networks in Britain, the number of fighters going to Iraq has been extremely small, according to senior French intelligence officials.
In fact, the global statistics on terrorism have borne this out for a few years already. For example, last year’s State Dept. report showed that overall, terrorist incidents declined outside the Middle East, with Europe and Eurasia experiencing a 15 percent decrease. Overall increases in prior years have been attributable to attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan (and occasionally the Kashmir). Moreover, many of the attacks in Iraq would be labeled as “civil war” or not, committed by “insurgents†or “militants†or not, depending on the political point to be made with the statistics.
The NYT also reports this nugget beyond the borders of France:
[L]aw enforcement authorities, particularly in countries like France, Italy and Spain, say they are convinced that their sweeping legal authority to eavesdrop, make arrests, hold suspects for long periods of time and win convictions on the vague charge of association with a terrorist enterprise has made it easier to take preventive action.
The US has had success with similar preventive measures, much to the chagrin and dismay of the far Left, which is working diligently to overturn them.
Karl, Karl, Karl, if our present leader were Democrats, they could be trusted with those measures. Republicans use those measures to prevent terrorist actions – AND – as part of a their scheme create a theocratic dictatorship.
I mean, geez, man, just look at what Dubya & his gang have done in the last seven years.
I mean, geez, man, just look at what Dubya & his gang have done in the last seven years.
Formed a Methodist-Episcopalian junta? “Look out! They’ll make you cut your lawn to maintain property values! The men will be forced into cardigans and the women into pumps and pearls!”
I submit there’s another reason the “terrorists returning from Iraq” threat hasn’t materialized: not that many of them are returning from Iraq.
“French authorities predicted a new and dangerous threat: young Muslims lured to the Iraqi battlefields who would return, radicalized, to use their newfound battlefield skills in terrorist acts inside France.”
Except that they’re dead, Jim.
it’s teh Global Cooling
Karl – For every spolodeydope we kill, we are creating 5 new splodeydopes. I know because the media and the Left have told me so.
JD – I too have seen these reports! let us declare the discussion closed! There is now consensus. No more debate… it is settled.
1 – the idea that law enforcement should ignore terrorist ties is INSANE.
2 – the other reason we don’t have to fear radicalized jihadis from Iraq is because Iraq is a big terrorist roach motel. They go in; they don’t come out. That’s going to be true as long as we keep supporting the Iraqi government, and once the Iraqi government can handle security concerns on its own. If we pull out, and the security situation in Iraq degrades, we may face terrorists from Iraq.
Not Hotel California?
The flypaper strategy works, and even the jihadi recruits have figured it out. Well, the ones that live long enough have.
and why is Brad Pitt supporting those Tibetan Terrorists?
Daiquiris all around for the Global Cooling KoolAid. (psst… ‘Nock, can you spare me a few bucks ’til payday?)
datadave – sure. tell you what… erm… this rounds on Dan! Drinks all around! Thx Dan
KKK….and a KK-Slavophile-ist. Link back to the Kulak article..she’s cute Karl: Kerry Kubilius! and I can’t link her here for some reason?
nice, but maybe there’s too many K’s in comment number one.
Daryl, the only thing I’d point to in your statement is with regard to number 2. We aren’t quite as successful at the “don’t come out” part as we’d like to be. It is still largely true, I’ve used the roach motel analogy myself, but Iraq was becoming a broblem in 2002-2003 because of flight there from Afghanistan. Similarly, Afghanistan is experienceing a resurgance of violence now because that migration of committed jihadists has reversed. It’s easier to get to Afghanistn than anywhere else and teh “infidel” is right there, so why work harder than you have to? Jihaddis are quite practical that way.
your links have seemingly been “redistributed”. Apparently, the them thought you wouldn’t mind. I’ll contact the Help Desk asap.
but Iraq was becoming a broblem in 2002-2003 because of flight there from Afghanistan.
Right, because the Proggs had failed to inform Al Qaeda that it was impossible for them to cross International borders.
So, since there are few terrorists in Iraq, we can come home? I mean, that is “the-central-front-in-the-war-on-terror”. If there are terrorists, then we can leave. Or, we can’t leave until General Patreaus says we can, errr, President Bush? I don’t know what we’re doing there, since we move the goalposts, but I was sure there was something about fighting terrorism.
My friends, these people vote.
Chris,
Perhaps you skipped over this bit:
That is the cynical exercise you are attempting.
The point you are missing is that the story is not about whether there is violence in Iraq, but whether violence is being exported from Iraq.
The answer there, as it has been for years, is “no.” RTO Trainer is correct about the flow of foreign jihadis shifting toward Afghanistan as they started losing in Iraq. Those (not RTO, afaik) who have argued that Iraq has been a diversion from Afghanistan never consider what that theater — and the stability of nuclear Pakistan — might look like had the jihadis who went to Iraq these past years gone to the Afghan border areas instead.
Formerly Republican Military people now turning to Obama or Hillary isn’t a myth btw. I know a few myself. anecdotal..sure, but it’s a pattern.
The Problem is the Economy.
In a way, this suggests that Iraq may have been intended as a diversion — just not in the way the critics mean it.
Heh.
So, Mcgehee, what are we doing? Somehow, outside the ad homimems, I’m pretty sure you can’t answer that question, except to sputter about terrorists or thugs, or whatever parlance you have. When you can’t describe winning, then you don’t know what it is.
Root….yeah, man, only allowed so many links in the pipeline. Linking should be banned. They are such crutches for old people.
Chris,
I guess you’re going to stick to your talking point, rather than address my response. Shocka.
outside the ad homimems
Chris, damn, they’d have to use links then. Shit. Ad Homimems are the Popcorn here!
dd,
Irony-free today, I see.
K, you gotta point no doubt about it.
Things are getting better in Iraq while they’re getting worse here. Good one!
“#Comment by datadave on 4/8 @ 7:56 am #
Formerly Republican Military people now turning to Obama or Hillary isn’t a myth btw. I know a few myself. anecdotal..sure, but it’s a pattern.
The Problem is the Economy.”
My son, Mattthe Marine, told me that he knows of not one, let me repeat that, NOT ONE, Marine that he knows is going to vote for either Hillary! or Obama.
So you’re a fucking liar, dave.
…what are we doing?
Helping Iraq establish a stable government.
When you can’t describe winning, then you don’t know what it is.
Winning will be when Iraq has a stable government. Did you see the link above about Mookie dissolving his militia? That will be big step in that direction. As is the fact it was the increasing strength and confidence of the Iraqi police and military that is bringing it about.
Either that or you’re drunk again.
“As is the fact it was the increasing strength and confidence of the Iraqi police and military that is bringing it about.”
When they can step up, we can step down.
The President’s strategery.
SHOCKA!
When you can’t describe winning, then you don’t know what it is.
I can, and will. Winning will be when the Iraqi government can reliably count on their own military and police to deal with whatever issues confront them, be it terrorists, criminals or regional players who wish to influence events within Iraq. At that point, we may still keep a presence in the area as we have in Japan, Germany and South Korea depending on the will of the Iraqi government.
Karl – For every spolodeydope we kill, we are creating 5 new splodeydopes. I know because the media and the Left have told me so.
Uhh JD,
I detect your sarcasm, but you don’t think that it’s possible to tie a live grenade to a fragmented arm of an exploded homicide bomber and casually toss it into a crowded marketplace. It’s called terrorist recycling. Duh.
Here’s a question: why is it with the US unemplyment rate .3% lower than ath the best point of the Clinton administration, we’re heading into a Depression?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Bueller?
Comment by N. O’Brain on 4/8 @ 8:11 am
It’s because of teh voices!
Some things are as natural as the seasons NO’B. An economy in ruins is the natural state of affairs when a Republican is in office and its a presidential election year, just as the price of gas invariably goes up just prior to the summer vacation driving season.
Thanks, Education Guy.
Wow, suddenly I feel…..educated!
Can you work on dave next?
only easy care.. no irony bs.
(I like your stuff even if I only agree with some of it.)
but I think the petard for us ‘tards isn’t noticed by the indebted community (the 90 percent): including military families. They really thought it was just a “job”, a lot of them.
to translate for someone not accustomed to the “left”: the Left really does worry about the declining morals of those who might think we nonPatriots or ‘terrorists’ are next for the security specialists. Maybe, Iraq is just a trial run for what the black flaggers expect to do here next: clean up the whiners and complainers and jobless malcontents? After all the Chinese military is designed not for external threats, it’s designed to keep the masses from threatening their own elites. We seem to be following Chinese methods in many ways..except they cleverly nationalized their labor movement…at least acknowledging there should be labor representation..although de’clawed. The dominate thought here is “waht labor”?
“I submit there’s another reason the “terrorists returning from Iraq†threat hasn’t materialized: not that many of them are returning from Iraq.” ..thx my point in contrast: more Timothy McVies. coming back and finding they’re aren’t victory parades nor jobs for them. You need to wait a little longer.
It really sucks that Bush One didn’t do the job the first time…although better our CIA et al didn’t support ‘dead-enders’ like Saddam in the first place back in the day. That was and is my opinion. Bush Two just made a mess cleaning up after his father.
drinking right from a skull, jughead. slurp!
Education Guy, get crackin’!
Can you work on dave next?
I’ve tried telling him his fate is in his own hands and that knowledge is acquired through effort, but he doesn’t seem to believe me. Perhaps we could all join forces and put together some sort of film strip to drive the message home.
damn, another matt! that was the most popular name of his generation y’know. All Matts are good btw. I know a few.
#Comment by Education Guy on 4/8 @ 8:26 am #
Hell, if we could just convince dave that doing shots of Wild Turkey at 10:30 in the morning (EDT) is a bad idea.
e.g. you’ve got an easy job. really!
e.g. of what, dave?
C’mon, connect those dots!
I stopped at 4 am btw. O’ work’s beckoning.
e.g.=Edu Guy…just mixing initials…translation. Maybe it’s those army and air force guys in Afghan. that i shouldn’t be talking to.
but those other services really are pussies. O’nan. you know.
“O’ work’s beckoning.”
Go get those deep-fryers, dave.
mixing initials is a capital offense in some parts of the middle east and africa. Just be aware of where you are when you do it.
also, conversations in your head only count half.
My comment was intended to express amazement that you can’t answer it. As for me, it would only be redundant.
If it’s ad hominem to notice that a commenter is asking a question to which the answer is obvious, then I guess that’s what I was doing.
It seems to happen a lot around here, because we get a lot of casual interlopers who just don’t pay much attention to what’s going on outside the comment threads.
Now maybe the French and German police just might have helped eliminate their own terrorist problems. They seemed both pretty numerous and remarkably restrained dealing with the olympic torch fiasco… Do we have to have all the credit? McCain’s trying to mend fences and you’re just going to spoil that???
Karl? (not writing another treatise?…only so many we can handle in a day..)
casual interlopers!!
UMBRAGE!!!!
a lot…? now that’s questionable
I could be making money now….voice in my head, voice in my head, money, voice, money
Nurse!!!
later, now attack the Frogs!!!
“Now maybe the French and German police just might have helped eliminate their own terrorist problems. They seemed both pretty numerous and remarkably restrained dealing with the olympic torch fiasco…”
My goodness, moral equivalence!
Who’da thunk it?
E.G., I would caution that, for us, conversations with a blank wall count even less.
Chris, the goals have not changed.
Victory in Iraq is Defined in Stages
Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.
Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential.
Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism.
That’s from this, published in 2005 and it tracks with the President’s statements since 2002.
You can continue to stick your fingers in your ears and scream if you like, but it won’t alter the truth.
McGehee
Can it be actually be considered conversation if one side is merely showing us his insanity? I think at that point the whole exercise moves to a weird place that’s like scab picking. It may please you for a bit, but you know at the end of the day it’s probably not good for you.
The Frogs have elected a right wing government that has promised to up their stake in the fight against terrorism. What’s more, Grey Goose is a delicious replacement for the now odious Absolut, if a bit spendy.
NEVER! :)
It is not a matter of our ability to articulate it. Nearly all of us here have doen so oan more than one occassion. The President’s message has not changed since 2002.
It’s matter of your being receptive to the answer. So long as you can claim to not know you can claim that we are teh ones who are deficient.
6 years on and thousands of answers later your (that’s the collective ‘you’) willful ignorance has worn mighty thin.
The Soldiers I know of that are planning to vote for Obama or Clinton are the ones who also answer “Why did you join the National Guard?” with, “For the college money,” as their only answer.
o’Brain,
DD is an empty suit and as such is ineducable, even by an education guy.
Just read this, via Hot Air:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/04/builders-of-nat.php
Read the whole thing, but meet Corporal Gasperetti, a perfect example of the poor ignorant desperate illiterates who populate our military.
Now maybe the French and German police just might have helped eliminate their own terrorist problems.
Take my wishywashy assertion and draw a dubious conclusion and then pass it on as fact.
Winning will be when Iraq has a stable government. Did you see the link above about Mookie dissolving his militia? That will be big step in that direction. As is the fact it was the increasing strength and confidence of the Iraqi police and military that is bringing it about.
Oops. Sadr announced no such thing meaning al-Sistani is behind him and not Maliki. Real progress.
To rto trainer: that was the finest newspeak I have ever read. You, sir, have always been at war with Eurasia and I respect that. “look away, people, there’s nothing to see in the Sandbox.”
I’ll repeat, our mission was to topple Saddam, get rid of WMD’s, and get rid of terrorists. This Karl guy just said we have no terrorists (quoting the NY Times…ironic given they are evil when they don’t report what the Right believes). No terrorists, no WMD, no Saddam. According to the president, it’s time to go. Or, don’t you watch Frontline?
Chris,
You might want to brush up on the reading comprehension.
Karl – Reading comprehension is still a ways down the line. He actually has to try to read first.
Also, as Chris didn’t provide a link for his point about al-Sadr, I’ll note that the Mahdi Army spokesman speaks with a forked tongue.
Chris,
You might want to brush up on the reading comprehension.
Yup, regarding this:
Sadr announced no such thing meaning al-Sistani is behind him and not Maliki.
Here is a good place to start:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/03/wirq03.xml
well, and B Moe, I found it interesting that you link an article that’s a couple years old and decided to go see if Sistani had been mentioned in the news lately. and he had, but not for what some might expect.
I guess one could interpret that as backing Sadr, but it seems… doubtful.
I think Mook is looking for a way out that will save as much face as possible. He is one of the few big nails left, and the Iraqi hammer is getting more and more accurate.
I’ll repeat, our mission was to topple Saddam, get rid of WMD’s, and get rid of terrorists.
The mission was to prevent Saddam Hussein from developing WMDs. To liberate the Iraqi people. To have the Iraqi people get rid of terrorists. It was right there in the house resolution to enable the war in Iraq. Somebody lied to you.
who’s this “our” you’re talking about because to quote from the strategy doc linked earlier:
Rusty, you’re leaving part of it out. None of this has changed since it was articulated in 2003:
In the short term:
An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy.
In the medium term:
An Iraq that is in the lead defeating terrorists and insurgents and providing its own security, with a constitutional, elected government in place, providing an inspiring example to reformers in the region, and well on its way to achieving its economic potential.
In the longer term:
An Iraq that has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency.
An Iraq that is peaceful, united, stable, democratic, and secure, where Iraqis have the institutions and resources they need to govern themselves justly and provide security for their country.
An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region.
w007! Maggie!
a little distracted are we?
As Iraqi troops battled Shiite militias last month in the southern city of Basra, Iraq’s most revered Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani was remarkably quiet. This is bad news for Iraq and for the United States.
Or maybe it was the go code.
datadave
Now maybe the French and German police just might have helped eliminate their own terrorist problems. They seemed both pretty numerous and remarkably restrained dealing with the olympic torch fiasco…
Number of times “The Olympic Torch” was ‘extinguished’ during all of the first 100 years of the “modern” Olympics prior to 2008: 2
Number of times “in a single day”— April 7, 2008: 3
Why would you ever/i> consider “teh French” to be effective”— in anything other than “cheese” and “surrender”?
RTO. Thank you for filling in the blanks. Personally I didn’t think Chris had the legs for a more in depth discussion since he seems to have bought the whole ‘Bush lied. people died’ meme. And thank you for your service as well.
Actually, Sistani has had health problems, so it’s not exactly shocking that he’s withdrawn. And the Sadrist spokesman doesn’t even say they consulted Sistani specifically.
– Mookie-beard has been playing “hide the Mahdi” for awhile now, but each time he lets them off their leashes for a few days it attrits his already smallish militia. Insiders say his newfound spirit of cooperation is driven by a very real possibility he’ll lose what little he has in terms of parliamentary power. If that happens his Ieanian puppet masters will miss place his address overnight.
– Aside from that, you’re seeing an uptick in the “sons of
al QaedaIraq, which could be a real threat to his hold on power, at least in Sunni strongholds.– Yes he is looking for a way out. If Maliki simply holds the line al Sadr will need to consolidate within the gov.
– Watching the hearings today, none of the Dems brought up questions pertaining to the here-to-fore, much maligned “benchmarks”. Probably because they are beginning to work. So now they’re down to bitching about the cost, but even that was not a good source of excuse for the Defeat-o-crats, since the Ambassador pointed out the Iraq is starting to pay its own bills.
– Anyone notice how both Hillery and Obama are suddenly “against” anything as irresponsible as a precipitous withdrawal? Poor surrender monkeys.
I knew that, Fletch. Glad you noticed it too. But extenuating circumstances: The Free Tibet movement has been supported by Western Intel. groups (CIA, etc. ) for a long time. Even though, ironically limoliberals, celebleftists, etc have jumped on the Dalai Lama’s bandwagon (and the Dalai Lama is a well-educated, western educated guy). But going back aways you’ll see CIA monies pouring into the antiChiCom Tibetan movement.
Before we salute the Tibetans remember… historically China has a centuries old claim on Tibet going back over 500 years. The only time Tibet was authentically ‘free’ was due to British invasion and British protection of that primitive tribal community in an effort to colonize a section of Chinese influence.
It’s a fine culture in many ways but so are the American Indians. Even the Dalai Lama admits it’ll never be independent and he is rightfully trying to avoid violence. The violence perpetrated by the demonstrators could be construed as terrorism. But being that the French govt. is right of center (perhaps in Meathead’s minds but compared to the US Sarkosy is a liberal). I am sure they have sympathies with the Free Tibet movement and thus were restrained in their dealings with the protesters.
RTO. Thank you for filling in the blanks. Personally I didn’t think Chris had the legs for a more in depth discussion since he seems to have bought the whole ‘Bush lied. people died’”
most people don’t have time to argue with narrow-minded antiLiberal bigots who aren’t willing to argue fairly or honestly.
remember Bush said “Mission Accomplished” and fired a member of his administration that said the Invasion would cost more than Bush/Cheney’s estimated 50 billion. The guy who got fired said it might cost 200 million.
Opps, but you’re saying everything is on schedule?
I see you know as much about politics as you do about physics. A shame really, since you type so well.
remember Bush said “Mission Accomplishedâ€Â
No dave, Bush didn’t “say” that. Your project today is to find our who “said” it and what mission they were referring to.
So the fuck what? Italy has historical claims on the entire Mediterranean basin, much of continental Europe, and most of Britain, claims going back nearly 2000 years. If the Italians invaded Spain and treated the Spanish like chattel, would that make them right?
CODPIECE ALERT!!!!11!!! MILITARY DICTATOR ALERT!!ll!!!
I think I heard part of one, oh wait, it was probably a Republican. still I love the, “I’m going to ask you this question and then answer it after I’ve ignored your answer because it doesn’t agree with what I already know” highlight: Jim Webb citing an article from the Guardian.
I’ve got a photo of me in a flight suit that I’d love to have p-shopped a “Mission Accomplished” banner on, for the last few years.
My mission was accomplished, and it was accomplished without having had to win the Iraq war for all time. It’s a DOUBLE WIN!!
Even better: it’s win, every minute of every day for the rest of my life!
#87
Moe. He’ll fuck that one up too. He’s like the poster boy for mediocre.
Comment by datadave on 4/8 @ 7:56 am #
Formerly Republican Military people now turning to Obama or Hillary isn’t a myth btw. I know a few myself. anecdotal..sure, but it’s a pattern.
The Problem is the Economy.
I love the way you never get tired of being full of shit.http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDY5MzFmNTllNjlkM2U0YmQ3ODlhOGJkNDQ4M2U4ZjM=
That didn’t go well.