In a week marked by enunciations of extraordinary stupidity, this takes the prize:ÂÂ
Seymour Hersh, the journalist who exposed the massacre, said he sees parallels between My Lai and a more recent story that he has he reported on, the 2005 images of torture from the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. But he says the public furor unleashed by My Lai was far greater.
“It’s stunning how much impact My Lai had and how little impact Abu Ghraib had,” Hersh said by telephone from Washington. “We’ll have to leave it to historians to figure out why.”
Suggestion for new Ben & Jerry’s flavor: Prostitutti Frutti
Yeah, but just wait until the photos of the Abu Ghraib goldfish-swallowing and phonebooth-stuffing leak out. It’ll be mayhem.
No shit. If I were stranded alone on a desert island and had to choose between the two, I’d take the collective works of Abu Al Hussein Ghraib. My Lai is just so… I dunno… yesteryear. You know?
I think public furor is just kind of tired of being taken for granted.
Obama is a socialist African Christian who pains and we’re really Tibet ‘working through’ our problems with lucifer worshippers? Or it’s Carville slipping in he’d pay for the re do over in Florida cause he got upset and had it screwed cause he’s Clinton’s hit man and worked closely with lucifer to make sure we all went with Bill when we voted like Obama. CNN payed Carville and that may be the problem, but, hey, isn’t that how dem’luciferians work?
Which is not to say everyone has got the memo.
I guess Hersh bought into his own press — he apparently believes he really “broke” the Abu Ghraib story. In reality, the investigation was announced months before in a daily press briefing. Hersh’s role was to serve as a stooge for the defense attorneys — they knew their clients were guilty as hell, so they decided to take it to the “court of public opinion”. They used Hersh to make the claim that their clients were simply carrying out policy, not sick demented fucks.
I don’t know whether he’s a figure of comedy or tragedy.
People didn’t know the first lie was a total con job. They know that putting a pair of panties on a murderers head is a college prank. That is everyone knew it as a prank except those that are so educated they’re stupid which included, in the stupid part anyway, almost the entire democrat party.
“We’ll have to leave it to historians to figure out why.â€Â
Uhh, no we won’t, super-genius. It’s because one was a massacre. The other wasn’t.
Well, I guess you’re not at nuanced as Hersh,then. Neither am I.
Well, you know, the Full Story of Abu Ghraib is slowly leaking out. I find that more and more people know bits and pieces of it, and their number increases slowly. Shall I summarize it for you?
Thought you’d never ask —
At the Abu Ghraib prison, American soldiers behaved badly. Yes, that’s euphemism. They tortured prisoners, and worse than that — a torturer does his victim the courtesy of wanting something; those assholes wanted nothing but their own pleasure.
They were immediately — as in, within hours, if not minutes of the offenses — reported to their superiors by other soldiers. Now right there, the jaws of half the world’s people with knowledge of the military hit the floor. The vast majority of “soldiers” around the world are barely-organized gangbangers, just as they have been since the concept first came to be, and they stick together. The torturers were reported. By another enlisted man. It is the stuff of fairy tales.
Those superiors responded immediately, within the limits of bureaucratic procedure. Within days, perhaps hours, the accused were relieved of duty and taken into custody, and an investigation began. Three-fifths of the remaining military observers’ jaw muscles went slack, making a total of eighty percent with their chins in the gravel.
The investigation proceeded with dispatch, attention to detail, and scrupulous observance of the rights of accused, accusers, and victims. Testimony was taken and evidence gathered in a systematic and fair way, ultimately resulting in formal charges against the accused. There were courts-martial based on the results, including the actual miscreants’ superiors all the way up to flag rank. By then nine out of ten knowledgeable observers were in real danger of ingesting flies.
The courts-martial returned verdicts of guilty, and the convicted persons received punishments ranging from prison time to flag officers being relieved of command. By the time all that was worked through, there may have been a few Brits who weren’t quite struck speechless in amazement, but nobody else could believe their eyes and ears. (I speak, of course, of those outside the U.S. military establishment, for whom the whole busines was all in a day’s work — a grim and disappointing day, to be sure.)
This is especially true because in the middle of all that the Press got wind of it and tried their damnedest to turn it into a circus. There were Pictures! of Torture! spread all over the world’s broadsheets and airwaves, right next to the lingerie ads, and all the usual pundits went apoplectic. The people responsible for justice — investigation, charges, trials, and punishment — appear not to have been affected in any way; they just proceeded; “soldiered on”, as it were.
The Professionally Outraged never quite figured out why the story fell flatter than expected. The Iraqis should have shared their outrage! There should have been mobs in the streets, protesting! There was, of course, a good bit of that, but masses of Iraqis, or of people who spoke Arabic or called on Allah in general, were notably absent. The protestors were predominately well-fed Westerners summarized by a wag as “…women showing their tits to support people who would execute them for showing an ankle.”
It clearly never occurred to Seymour Hersh, or to any of the pundit class, that Abu Ghraib had been used for torture before, by the minions of Saddam Hussein, who had a rather more expansive view of “torture”. It is statistically unlikely that there is a single Shi’ia in all of Iraq who has not either had the experience of being imprisoned there himself, or knows of it from a family member. Pictures of a man with panties on his head, or blindfolded holding dead electrical wires, do not impress when you’re sitting in the living room watching TV next to Uncle Abdul, who walks hunched over because Saddam’s goons pulverized his kidneys with beatings and is missing all the fingers on one hand and the nails of the other. It’s a matter of perspective.
And despite the propagandists, the word is seeping out. Americans are not angels, and don’t claim to be; the American population contains the same percentage of good and bad, saints and sinners, as is the case with every other people. The difference is, when we catch them we make sure they’ve done wrong and punish them, rather than either hysterically rounding up and shooting everybody remotely involved or handing them Civil Service jobs with regular salaries and bonuses, “perks”, and a retirement plan.
Welcome to disappointment, Mr. Hersh. You grabbed the wrong end of the story out of bigotry and an attempt to relive past glories, and dragged the rest of the Press into the mire with you.
Regards,
Ric
Sy don’t lie wing nuts! We humiliated, HUMILIATED I say, those poor innocent brown people. As good old AmeriKKKa likes to do, we covered up the HUMILIATIONS! That’s LIKE a massacre. My teacher humiliated me by giving me a B in social studies once. I tried! I tried, I was just too fucking dumb to learn. Humiliator! Massacrerer!!!
There’s a difference between being shot in the head and actions that some guy in San Francisco pays $350 an hour to have done to him.
‘Mkay, Sy?
Oh, and I just watched Fox ‘Media Watch’.
David Korn is an asshole, too.
Just to keep you all updated.
I agree there is little difference between Abu and it’s predecessor.
Only the grunts took a hit.
If Semanticleo was talking about Abu Ghraib when it wrote “Only the grunts took a hit”, then Semanticleo is lying. General Janis Karpinski, in charge of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq, was busted to colonel and forced into early retirement. That’s not the brig, but it destroyed her career and severely damaged her reputation and pension.
Don’t forget, Dr. Weevil, that Karpinski has taken to the speaking circuit, giving speeches at lefty gatherings. So not only wasn’t it “only the grunts [who] took a hit”, the left now fetes the highest ranking officer responsible for Abu Ghraib.
Comment by Semanticleo on 3/15 @ 5:33 pm #
Do you speak English?
Curious people want to know.
“I don’t know whether he’s a figure of comedy or tragedy.”
Personal comedy, national tragedy.
Ah! The semanticleo comes on and again reinforces his “fucked in the head” moonbat bona fides! Stop by the courtesy booth for your badge of moonbattery! It’s made of genuine hemp. We’re all wearing them. And Dr. Weevil, just like an asshole wing nut to bring up that “FACT”! But, damn, man we “HUMILIATED” the brown people! That is like a massacre! Massacreists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!eleventy!!!!
I like Sy Hersh; I think he’s a great reporter. But I think he’s comparing apples to oranges, as Crimso observes. I only vaguely recall the My Lai revelation, but I do remember the visceral fury both my Viet Nam vet uncles had for Calley and the others. The Abu Ghraib scandal was caused by the unbelievably stupid actions of poorly trained and supervised prison guards. It caused yet another black eye for the U.S. when we could ill afford it. My Lai was a horror.
However, simply pointing out that Abu Ghraib got some press doesn’t negate Hersh’s mystification. I think he honestly equates the two awful events in terms of their cost to the American psyche. And maybe he’s right.
The American psyche needs to buck up then I think. Turning off the tv news would probably help a lot.
True. His mystification is rooted in a deep and abiding stupidity that mere factual education will never dent.
Really? What was the last story he truly broke? How do you square his status as a “great reporter” with his practice of repeating anonymous rumors when he speaks before audiences?
If so, I’m with ‘feet. In both cases, we learned that Americans aren’t perfect and that we’ll punish those who commit crimes — anyone who lets that hurt their “psyche” is little more than a child.
I’d like to see your defense of that stupid offhanded remark. Not waiting up, though.
Rob Crawford: You have the moral strength of Mount Rushmore. Some of us take it seriously when our troops create more harm than good. And yes, by implication, I hate the troops (whatever that means, blah, and etc.)
I like Sy Hersh; I think he’s a great reporter.
So tell me, did he ever come up with those Abu Ghraib “child rape videos” he claimed to have?
Some of us take it seriously when our troops create more harm than good.
How seriously do you take it when your press creates more harm than good?
Spies, etc. Poor diversion. Ask him. B. Moe: I don’t see this as a press issue. The instant question regarded Sy Hersh and his comparison to My Lai and Abu Ghraib. Please expound. Of course, no one will.
Spies, etc. Poor diversion. Ask him.
Poor diversion. The answer is no. He was lying. Deal with it.
You’re a coward. I take him at his word; you cower. The difference is that I question his assumptions; you fling shit and run. Really nice.
Still waiting for those child rape videos he told us he had, what, three years ago? Sy is full of shit.
Here’s the situation, cynn. You are the warden of a prison. A prison you inherited with no real records. A prison full of seriously fucking hard cases, religious fanatics who think martyrdom is the shit, or just plain evil bastards who don’t care if they live or die. They would rather kill a guard or one another as eat, and you job is to try to keep them alive until if can all be sorted out. You figure out that these guys are all uber-macho, and one of the options available to keeping peace is to totally humiliate them when they act up. So your choices are to
1)tell your guards to just do the best they can, you are sorry if they get hurt;
2)don’t take chances, beat the fucking shit out of them if they even look at you cross-ways; or
3)strip them naked and put panties on their heads and embarass the hell out of them if they give you any shit, because that is better than anybody getting hurt.
What do you do?
You’re a coward. I take him at his word; you cower.
1) He said he had the videos.
2) He didn’t.
3) He’s a liar.
Sorry.
Hersh:
Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children, in cases that have been recorded, the boys were sodomized, with the cameras rolling, and the worst above all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking.
So you “take him at his word” and believe that US troops sodomized young boys on camera?
I just want to get this straight.
Hmm… looks like there’s only here who’s “fling(ing) shit and running”.
Hint: the name starts with a lower case c.
Stop trying to do what you do. I was merely saying that airing the Abu Graib coverage somehow balances the My Lai coverage and evens out things is bullshit.
B. Moe: No matter what I do, I’m gonna be wrong. And whose fault is that, dear??
Hint: the name starts with a lower case c.
Well, there you are, then. End of sensible discussion. Prigs.
I was just funning you. Believe me, cynn, no one, not even his biggest fan, wants to live in a world where everything Seymour Hersh reports is actually true.
Thanks for the snotty pseudo-response. Means a lot.
I just don’t think Abu Ghraib was that big a deal, cynn. It was arbitrary a lot I think. Because there was a My Lai there will always be a My Lai because there has to be a My Lai, cynn. At least when a Republican is president in wartime anyway.
Oh my god. Could you all be any stupider?
well, and there wasn’t nearly as much coverage of the trials and punishment for those involved in Abu Ghraib. don’t you think that might have made a difference?
yeah, and a lot of soldiers do too. but the media isn’t quite so interested in that.
I would hope I couldn’t be any stupider. Maybe if I got cable.
Quit blaming the old media. You are basically admitting that you have lost control of the new media, and that’s what counts.
I think you are way, way underestimating the old media. I really do. It’s at least a wash. The new media amplifies the MSM at least as much as it challenges it.
whoops. comment in search of a post, sorry.
I don’t really understand what just happened.
It’s the new media, MayBee. It’s a feature, not a bug.
No, we’re pointing out that Sy Hersh is a lying sack of immoral shit. This control thing of yours, I think it raises questions about your intent.
Sy Hersh has predicted 6 of the last 0 invasions of Iran.
Did the troops — in general — create more harm than good? Do you really believe that Abu Ghraib cancels out all the good work the troops have done in Iraq?
Because, personally, I can separate the actions of a few — exposed, investigated, and punished by our troops themselves — from the actions of the rest. I dunno if that gives me the moral strength of Mount Rushmore or just an adult perspective on the world.
Who took that position? I don’t recall anyone saying that.
No matter what I do, I’m gonna be wrong. And whose fault is that, dear??
Whatever you are using to measure right and wrong.
Thanks for the snotty pseudo-response. Means a lot.
It means a lot more than your non-response to this:
So you “take him at his word†and believe that US troops sodomized young boys on camera?
Do you, or do you not, believe Hersh was telling the truth when he said that? It’s a simple question.
I can understand the moral outrage over the one, My lai, but not the other. Noone was tortured in the classic sense of the term in the other, AbuGrabe. The latter looking nothing more heinous than the work of bored teenagers who know they will get in real trouble if any of their charges get physically hurt. Subsequent events have shown us that since the Iraqis took over the prison the prisoners want the US jailers back. Hersh would have better serveed by camparing My Lai to AlQueda torture house the coalition troops uncover from time to time in the course of the war in Iraq. But that would run counter of Hershes goal of painting anything the current administartion does as benevolent Hersh is not a good reporter.
Don’t mince words, Rusty: Hersh sucks.
I gotta learn to be more direct.
A good reporter, first of all, reports the truth as best they know it and takes responsibility for what they report.
Obviously, Hersh fails miserably on that front, and the interview ends on the first question.
cynn just needs another case of the good stuff so she can think clearly. She seems to do so when she’s on the good stuff, today, not so much.
Cleo is cleo, and is probably upset that Hersh didn’t just make up even more unbelievable crap and take credit for more of other people’s work than he actually does, because of teh hypocrisy.
Only the US commits massacres without killing the victims, and covers things up by putting out press releases about them.