The Internet’s most notorious sock-puppeteer leads the wailing and gnashing of teeth across the Leftosphere as proposed amendments to the FISA containing telecom immunity start moving through the Senate.
Rick Ellensburg blows a gasket, not at the evil BushCo, but at Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) and Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT):
If and when telecom immunity is passed (thereby forever extinguishing any hope of investigating and obtaining accountability for the President’s illegal spying programs), and the Bush administration (and subsequent presidents) are vested permanently with vast new warrantless eavesdropping powers to spy on Americans, it will be because Harry Reid and the Democratic leadership conspired to ensure that it happened. They aren’t just standing by meekly, failing to oppose it. They are actively enabling it with as aggressive a posture as the Republicans could possibly have employed had they still been in control of the Congress.
That’s right — it’s officially a conspiracy. Not to mention another example of the paranoid style in Brazilian blogging.
At OpenLeft, Matt Stoller complains:
All that is required to fight this is for Clinton or Obama to put the glare of the Presidential spotlight in the Senate. To, you know, lead. All three campaigns are well-aware of this fight, and at least Clinton and Obama have been completely unresponsive.
Stoller, Ellers and the rest of the nutroots simply refuse to accept the reality of the state of play in the Senate:
“In the end, I think something like the Intelligence Committee bill would pass  with the immunity,†said a senior Democratic official who opposes the immunity plan and insisted on anonymity. “I don’t know that it’s possible to get anything through the Senate that doesn’t grant the telecom companies immunity.â€Â
Instead, the nutroots have deluded themselves into the belief that staging a televised, old school filibuster against the Terrorist Surveillance Program (which any number of polls shows to be popular) and arguing that the telecom companies should be punished for helping the US government in the wake of 9/11 will somehow lead to a Capra-esque epiphany on the part of the American people.ÂÂ
On the other hand, maybe the nutroots are just jonesing to see a disheveled Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) on the Senate floor, giving a late-night dramatic reading of Ellensburg’s latest manifesto, rendered in prose so tortured it warrants an independent counsel.
That prospect may be what turned Reid and Leahy to the Dark Side.
“All that is required to fight this is for Clinton or Obama to put the glare of the Presidential spotlight in the Senate.”
How about they just show some leadership as Senators, since that is what they are?
thereby forever extinguishing any hope of investigating and obtaining accountability for the President’s illegal spying programs
Since they have already determined the program to be illegal, isn’t an investigation after the fact kind of pointless?
Reading his drivel is comparable to a lack-of-lithium fueled screed from datelessdave.
All that is required to fight this is for Clinton or Obama to put the glare of the Presidential spotlight in the Senate. To, you know, lead. All three campaigns are well-aware of this fight, and at least Clinton and Obama have been completely unresponsive.
Unfortunately for the NutRoots, both Clinton and Obama hope to be elected President someday, and neither wants to be tied to anything that would be hideously unpopular, not to mention likely to be at or near the center of the *next* 9/11 Commission report.
Oh yeah, one other thing. Does it strike anybody as odd that a Brazilian blogger purports to know all the details of top secret, compartmentalized, highly technical surveillance programs? One wonders how Gleeens and the leftosphere can attain such absolute lead pipe moral certitude, that their understanding of the facts actually matches reality. Versus, y’know, senators and house members who actually sometimes get briefed on the facts.
Oh nevermind. Why even bother arguing about this crap. Gleens’es picture is in the dictionary next to ‘fatuous’. The old version of the dictionary, before they watered down all the good adjectives.
WHAT “illegal spying program”??? For all the opportunistic, theatrical and totally faux outrage over the Executive Branch doing what it is obligated to do after the country was attacked (aka “act of war”), the legality of the actions was not settled at the time, so any subsequent political hackery that declares them ILLEGAL still doesn’t/shouldn’t make telecom companies liable for anything
or did that Ex Post Facto thingy go the same way as logic for the left?
Lying crap weasels is a pretty good descriptor.
I’d pay good money for that Feingold show, and I’d be breatlessly anticipating the Kucinich sequal.
descriptor…is that like decider?
seems to me that alleged sock puppetry (internet) is a pretty lame excuse for denigrating mr. Greenwald. esp. when it is so easy to do it at PW…
a fart on all your houses
Don’t know why they’re worried. To my knowledge, absolutely no drug dealers have fallen to the “President’s illegal spying programs” (targeting inbound calls from foreign sources to their stateside sockpuppets, mostly).
Wait a minute…
Note to Stoller, Greenwald, & Ellensburg:
Even ultra-liberals Clinton and Obama don’t want to be associated with kooks like you.
alright…so what’s so good about increased Govt. intrusion into our personal lives. Now, that’s a contradiction of the principles endorsed by PW. ? A serious ?…don’t have too much time to waste so maybe i’ll check in later.
Going to Philadelphia for a conference on tech. reform in edu.
can’t keep up w/ the sock puppetry here.
ah. a rejoinder to the neofascist tendencies oft seen here: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/012308E.shtml
Call Chalmers Johnson a dickhead all you want but he’s got the intellectual goods….but you’ve got the money from taxation for the military industrial complex so that makes you ‘wealthier’.
why is it that Google, a private enterprise company is maligned here but you condone Blackwater which sucks the US Treasury Dry. Check out the stats Chalmer’s gives (also Greenwald) and tell me ‘Who’s the Statist here?” me, or Darleen? (for example)
They make the crap up, Al. It’s easier that way and leads to a greater internal incoherency. Because they are bug-crap nuts.
Darleen – Facts, and the law, are really not important to these asshats. You know that.
idiotdave – We mock him for his sockpuppetry. We criticize him for his mendacity. Big difference.
BTW – Your last question really could not have been less serious, had you tried. Truthout is a great source! Has Rove been indicted yet? Any day now ….
You really need to get back to the doctor, that RX is really insufficient.
Don’t worry datadave. You aren’t that important.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29
strawman sockpuppetry is the actual form encouraged by PW regulars on other threads…so I think the constant belittling of Greenwald for similar behavior…is, well, you describe it?
Hypocritical perhaps?
DataDave,
Those billions and billions of US weapons dollars pay, in large part, the salaries of the engineers and laborers and suppliers who make teh national defense weapons. The engineers and laborers and suppliers, in turn, pay taxes, buy goods and services, and send their kids to schools either public and private.
fwiw, the US DoD has paid for the college education of more people than any other group in the history of the world. Google it!
Again, datalessdave, the more you type, the more you prove.
A wise person once said it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth (or in your case, type) and prove it.
criticize? Mendacity is such a big word for one who promotes fear of terrorists when his leaders support torture as military justice (i.e. the ‘rendition’ program where hundreds of alleged ‘terrorists’ were ‘disappeared’.
I am glad you think Greenwald is so important…thx to PW, I would have never heard of the guy. Keep up the good work. Maybe if Google bought Salon and made it free he’d get more exposure.
kudos for PW for being so free and accessible.
Wiki and truthout are 2 of the best sources you can ever use. And, Larry Johnson. And, Jason Leopold. And, Kos Kiddiez.
JD, you’re tiresome and repetitive.
one who promotes fear of terrorists when his leaders support torture as military justice (i.e. the ‘rendition’ program where hundreds of alleged ‘terrorists’ were ‘disappeared’.
Prove it, you lying crap weasel.
Of course. Pointing out someone’s shady behavior is just so wrong, unless you expend time and energy to stop them from doing it. That’s quite a moral philosophy you got going there, datadave.
As for truthout, I haven’t checked in a while — has that secret indictment of Karl Rove come down yet?
“fwiw, the US DoD has paid for the college education of more people than any other group in the history of the world. Google it!”
welfare! that’s Statism. Your hypocrisy is limitless.
hey, add Freeways and Interstates! They were funded in the name of ‘national security’. Seems Americans can only be motivated by fear to do anything of importance. Meanwhile the innovation is from “liberals” in technology, education, and the arts…while ‘conservatives’ have only fear and the military industrial complex as generators of “intellectual capital”. ‘nother big word for wingnuts. Let’s hear it for “innovation” over at Blackwater and Mobil Oil. Rah, rah, right-wingers.
now go back to your usual repetitive invective.
btw, datadave might want to read the wiki definition of sock-puppetry a little more closely, as it seems he’s not really clear on the concept.
Prove it, you lying crap weasel.
Please. You know as well as the rest of us that read his conspiracy laden ego driven posts that our friend dave doesn’t stoop to things as pedestrian as proof, or facts, or even allowing opposing points of view. No, dave is just smart damn it, and that will have to be enough for the likes of us. It is clearly enough for him.
come on, Karl. One prediction and the whole enterprise is lambasted. We indulge in predictions all the time and many don’t pan out. like so many people here though Fred Thompson was a serious contender?
“if you don’t break something, you haven’t done anything.”
I think I would prefer repetitive invective to babbling incoherence.
I just love how datalessdave pretends to be above the fray, would never dream of lowering himself to such language, practically getting the vapors. Yet, when you read all of his drivel, he starts off from the belief that we that do not agree with him are some military industrial complex conspiracists, that condone torture just for fun, live our lives in abject fear, are racists, sexists, homophobes … you know the drill.
Why would he/she/it expect anything better, since all he/she/it is spewing is bile and BS to begin with.
dave – If you want someone to be nice to you, try out a little intellectual honesty first. Accusing people of positions only held by the voices in your head does not qualify as a good faith effort.
I love strawman sockpuppetry. But then all those alias show up when you change your name field.
again I appreciate PW’s openness.
thought
dude, I link probably more than you. Hey, your guy’s are in power, so why do you get defensive that your guys are criticized for all the crap weasle behavior we are seeing from the Bush Dynastic regime.
I’ve criticized Clinton’s attempt for their own dynastic regime too. But the point of Greenwald, Johnson with their Loads of statistics is that criticism is needed. And the benighted McCain who is reviled here often is also a critic of the Bush regime’s use of torture (ala Abu Grabe sp?) and the numerous victims of widely used torture methods is a given…Even Republicans accept that it happened and attempted to blame a few bad apples, poor folks in the military..but Dick Cheney said it on Meet the Press: “it’s a no brainer.. (to use torture)”.
Criticism is good doncha think?
Doe’s this mean that I have to give up my job and my camera? I an engineer (technology) working in a very high tech field. I’m also a semi-pro photographer. People have paid for my prints and I have done some commission work. I have also won juried art shows and been hung in galleries.
Since I am a conservative apparently I shouldn’t be able to accomplish these things?
Bonus points for calling the GI Bill of Rights welfare, ’cause it’s not like the troops do anything in return for for that education. datadave has the shovel out — keep diggin’.
I like the part where datadave acts as if he has some idea of what the hell he’s talking about and then argues endlessly from his position of faux enlightenment.
Oh, wait. No, I don’t. It’s mind numbing and tedious.
im in ur raysist torchur luvvin echo chambur
edjukatin ur ignarent wingnutz
(Internet memes: ALWAYS FUNNY.)
Actually, since datadave noted the ease of sock-puppetry here, I suppose I should question whether this is the real datadave, because today’s stuff does seem like a parody meant to discredit him.
I second the applause for PW’s openness, especially the openness which
attributes support for illegal activities through polls which exhibit the whiskers of age reminiscent of our foot-dragging Father Time who won’t seem to let go of the Bush administration.
The DEMs in Congress are just as culpable for the antics of our Man/Child Presidunce and therefore want no inquiries to expose the
extent of their capitulation. Why would they not support TelCom
immunity?
“ego driven”
I apologize. that hurts!
I’m just a happy idiot…. a pretender.
Criticism is good doncha think?
When you aim is good. Yours isn’t, which makes your criticism misplaced. I am curious what it is you get out of this, as you clearly aren’t interested in a different viewpoint and seem only to think that you are bringing facts to us, which you aren’t. So what is it dave? What makes you think you need to come here and smite all this evil? Are you secretly unsure of your positions? Maybe a little curious if your intelligence is what you think it is?
And yes, you link more than me. Now if I could just figure out a way to get you to reverse your process, which is as far as I can tell is to determine (mostly in your head) what position we might take and then look for “facts” that refute that (mostly imaginary) position. That’s not the path to wisdom, it’s the way an ego protects itself.
loldave, cool!
e.g.
I actually learn a few things here and it’s fun to get you all thinking and riled up.
some conservative ideas I accept like health care savings accounts…but anyone who knows anything, knows they help happy idiots like me who don’t like to buy insurance and have relatively good health. A Bandaid solution to the health care financial crisis (nearly 17 percent of gnp costs almost entirely billed to the US Middle Class while the wealthy and poor bear little of the costs….a regressive flat tax if you will think a moment on mandated costs of health insurance)
eh, what was this thread about? I digress.
it’s educational and fun and i am underemployed at the moment being a ‘free agent’.
if I am such a bane on your existance, don’t worry, I’ll be back at the ‘blue sky mines’ soon enough.
Doesn’t el Proctologist Mascarado, as the teenage boys of Sao Paulo know him, have anything else to keep him busy…?
You are not a bane on my existence. In fact, you are an opportunity both to refute the falsehoods you tend to spew, and to offer you hand up out of the dark place you obviously inhabit.
I could easily just ignore you, but for reasons of my own, I have decided not to.
For the record, you don’t get me thinking very much, because you mostly don’t offer anything substantial. You offer platitudes, bigotry and condescension. You certainly don’t rile me, because as much as you like to think we are the obvious ones, the truth is actually the opposite, and what you tend to offer us is trite and predictable.
Perhaps you should try thinking for yourself for a change and try to let go of these petty pre-made conceptions you have about people and the world.
“internet mime”! very good, learning all the time.
My Fav. Ghost. with Madame Singer, you’ll agree then abortion is sometimes good, Ja!
good for the Homeland.
cleo playing the “illegal” card. AFAIK, the case challenging the program was dismissed 6th Circuit, so there is not any valid ruling on its legality. And even Greenwald didn’t really disagree with the dismissal, iirc.
guilty of a priori ‘strawman’ arguments?
thinking?
i might make a living at it if I did that.
I’ll grant that the “Left” is easy at criticism as they never have a lot of power to actualize their ideas. Thus, they are ‘whiners’ when they actually confront those in power.
Brazil is a good model: the real Third way (not Bill Clinton’s third way): for example they told drug providers, US and Euro big Pharmas, to lower their prices for Aid’s medicine. Or the Brazilian govt. would make their own drugs. The threat was real enough that both Merck and the Euro. company lowered their prices to a point that it was affordable for Brazilians to continue their anti Aids campaign. And still profitable for the companies but not at such levels of extortion as before.
Another example: Ethanol. Brazil’s number one in reducing dependency upon oil and growing their GNP as a result. Left of Center govt=creative solutions. In contrast, Right of Center military govts of the past=suppression of critics, torture, and let the market rule. Which would you want? Brazil of today or of yesterday with a Republican supported military dictatorship?
think of solutions; being ‘Green’ for example would be good for the economy. a local Wind Energy company owned by a Former Republican is growing by leaps and bounds but still hindered by Big Govt’s favorable treatment of the Oil Industry. Why is that gentleman now a big critic of Republicans? Not only due to self interest I think. Because “vision” is needed and he see Democrats or Progressives as having more of that stuff.
Instead, I am sure Pres. Romney will reduce regulations for Oil companies so they can drill where ever they want. He’s been pretty clear about that. Same old, same old.
Now Karl, to Semi-conscious and gleens it feels illegal, like the entire Bushitler regime. It flows like the Ganges from Fisa to the Patriot Act to Guantanimo to FLORIDA VOTING IN 2000!
When it feels the delicious, smoothy feeling of outrage eliminates the need for stupid things likecourt decisions. EMBRACE THE OUTRAGE!!
I address none of this to dataless dave because I don’t believe he’s even addressed the issue.
Bush Dynastic regime Certain words and phrases are good tipoffs that what follows is about to be moonbat blather. You can add Kleo’s Man/Child Presidunce to that list. Oh, how it must hurt to have had your ass handed to you, TWICE, by the dummerest person, EVAH !
(nearly 17 percent of gnp costs almost entirely billed to the US Middle Class while the wealthy and poor bear little of the costs… Stop, and ponder on this “fact” for a moment. Use of these class warfare labels and ideals makes for tricky footing for your folks. The wealthy is variously described as people that make more than 80,000 duckets a year, to the more accurate descriptions. If the middle class is only responsible for 17% of the costs, that figure is significantly less than their representation in the population as a whole. If the middle class account for 17%, who accounts for the rest?
Ex post facto illegal, and the Dems aren’t even willing to go that far, Karl. They don’t want to hamstring themselves should they win the elections. The simple fact is that the loonwaffles have decided that it is illegal because GiGi and the NY Times told them it was so. No amount of reasoning will change that.
Loads of statistics are meaningless when the authors materially misrepresent them at every turn, dave.
numerous victims of widely used torture methods is a given It may be received wisdom in the places you haunt, but that does not make it true.
The GI Bill is welfare? Good Lord, if you had a soul, you would apologize for that smear.
“so there is not any valid ruling on its legality”
Uh, Karl. Telcom immunity is the issue the Left is angry over.
Perhaps you could explain the urgency with with this WH asked for immunity ‘for those who ALLEGEDLY helped us’?
datadave,
On behalf of all the other Daves in the world, I ask you to please change your name.
Frankly, you’re soiling what used to be a decent and respected name (even Dave Gump, Forrest’s less-smarter brother, is ashamed of you).
Thank you.
. Or the Brazilian govt. would make their own drugs. The threat was real enough that both Merck and the Euro. company lowered their prices to a point that it was affordable for Brazilians to continue their anti Aids campaign
If the Brazilian government is capable of pharmaceutical research and development, production, marketing, and regulatory action, then they should do so. That Merck provides a product, and bears all of the costs of the above, gives them no right to dictate the price in the market. Not that it matters, but it is clear that you have little to no understanding of what their products are, and what they do. A little education, dave. All of the AIDS (not AID’s) medication in the world cannot prevent AIDS. All they can do is treat the symptoms.
Brazil is your baseline for everything? Move there and hang out with GiGi and the Kabana Boyz then.
Coupling Brazil and Ethanol? Good Allah.
Perhaps you could explain the urgency with with this WH asked for immunity ‘for those who ALLEGEDLY helped us’?
First, urgency is your characterization and second, perhaps you would care to explain the Democrats accommodation on the issue. Note that bonus points will be awarded for capability to avoid conspiracy theories.
Kleo – You really are an dim bulb. You make datelessdave look like the shiny light on the hill. They need immunity from idiots like you, but your lack of grey matter inhibits your ability to recognize that.
This is the first time I’ve had the pleasure of seeing datadave in action. Calling the G.I. bill for soldiers to attend college welfare tells me all I need to know about him.
Combine semantics/clueless above statement with the one below:
It represents the idea that you and gleens and others are making assumptions that the activities are, in fact, illegal based on no more than your collective heady outrage at all things Bushian as opposed to, you know, actual legal finding of said illegality.
So please tell me that you are not going to make the merry-go-round circle jerk argument that it must be illegal beacuse it’s secret. BUSHITLER!!
Face it Gleen(s) latest tirade is nothing short of any Ron Paul statement, but without those pithy quai-“Constitutional” references & yet, strangely more coherent. I think Mr. Paul just found his running mate(s).
Paul/Greenwald 08: When surrender just isn’t good enough
Education Guy – I think your standard for bonus points is far too high. How about bonus points for not sloberring? Or in Kleo’s case, bonus points could be awarded for a coherent explanation of PRE traumatic stress disorder, which could be responsible for the levels of loonwaffliness we have seen.
JD, I might haven’t been clear. It’s wellknown that medical health care is 17 percent of the total national costs of everything. A unheard of percentage for a mediocre nonproductive sector of the economy (as is the military industrial complex.) Health care doesn’t create overall wealth just wealth for those in the field…except for “public health” and prevention which isn’t being addressed except by individuals and govt. So we have privatized health care system running amok as a parasite on the body politic and economy. Don’t act dumb. 17 is the current estimate of national gnp pie going to that sector. Fred Thompson said 16.something but next year it’ll be 17 going on up. You and Pablo have trouble with statistics: 17 percent of GNP goes to health care, nearly a hundred percent of that sector is charged to the Middle Class. while the rich pay a minimal high deductable and rarely get sick with lack of stress. And the poor have Medicaid. Also billed to the Middle Class but not to the Wealthy who usually pay capital gains taxes and little else (a Big Chunk, I’ll grant you but still not in proportion to what they cost in health care. So large donations to hospitals are in their interest to make sure that with their cheap high deductable policies they get good care and preferential treatment. I Know the biggest giver to hospitals in our area, she’s inherited a ton of money and is Republican but she’s giving voluntarily where as the Middle Class is forced to pay.
I consider those who make less than 200K a year Middle class and even will increase that ‘class’ up to almost a million a year. Even then you’d still have the vast majority of income gains in the last 7 years unaccounted for. Most of the income gains measured against inflation have been in the upper 1 per cent. The Investment class. Maybe you have time to dredge that income threshold to our attention. I don’t begrudge the well-off but I don’t think it’s fair that middle class people need to pay full premiums while the well off can be self insured and get off with a tiny percentage of income…,much less than 17 per cent for health care. I estimate a 70K a year person pays maybe 20 percent of overall income to health care: Premiums 10 percent (deducted from earnings by employers and larger and larger copays, taxes another 10 percent going to health care alone as an entitlement: Medicaid, Medicare, state funding of hospitals etc. again a rough estimate but think about. I can get a hundred K deductible policy for 20 bucks a mo. and ‘say’ I am insured and with luck and good health pay almost nothing for health care…that is a rich man’s thinking. In fact that is what they are doing as they have the money in investments and the bank to take care of minor office visits and lack the stresses of the middle class and thus are more healthy.
okay, I’ll lay of the Dynastic crap. It’s getting old I’ll agree.
I’ll lay off the Dynasty crap, sorry.
gotta change my oil so I’ll just be browsing once in awhile so I can’t reply much for awhile. few days.
ciao
I’m guessing cleo isn’t paying the telco legal bills.
. while the rich pay a minimal high deductable and rarely get sick with lack of stress.
snicker. I think the rich pay poor people to get sick for them.
doubled
don’t want to get into an invective attack…tempted to say ‘doofus’ can I go now? I was mocking the antiWelfare/ anti Statist attitudes of the conservatives. irony. get it? I think the GI Bill is a wonderful example of Keynesian pump-priming of intellectual capital and certainly growing of the middle class as well as funding Karl Rove’s antithesis, those who have higher degrees and teach. Not me, I have only a BA.
i note the irony and humor, carin. excellent. got to go. later.
blockquoteCalling the G.I. bill for soldiers to attend college welfare tells me all I need to know about him.
This particular bit of nonsense reeks of Balloon Fences,© Chinese shipping container troops and Mile High Dirt Berms™. Has alphie/monkeyboy reinvented himself? Did he get thrown off of Patterico, finally?
Inquiring minds want to know
datadave,
You keep saying you’re going to leave but continue to stick around.
How can we miss you if you won’t go away?
correction: satire. not irony, carin. welfare, too bj…that guy took it wrong obviously. I learned about shipping containers and ballon fences from you all. later
poof
(WARNING – OT comment) Snickering aside, am I to understand that DD thinks everyone should pay the same percentage of their income to health-care costs? Say … 17%? Everyone should just hand over 17% of their income to the medical community. Or, dare I say, a Universal System.
But, you know what is really unfair? How the rich have an undo burden of creating employment opportunities for the middle class and below. With all that (UNFAIR) money they have, they invest, spend, and employ.
As a bartender, I sure didn’t mind the wealthy coming in and sitting at my bar. I could kiss their ass REAL good.
Wanna know who I HATED most waiting on? Any guesses as to who is the cheapest? Teachers. There, I said it.
In the world last year 26,000 infants under the age of 5 died every day. Do you think that the parents of these children would agree that 17% of gnp is too much to pay for healthcare?
I do like the notion that the rich get sick less due to less stress. Made me laugh, which they say is good for your health!
Well, I’m just satisfied to know that once we (I say we but I mean my husband) make over $200, 000 we won’t be getting sick any more. I mean, everyone knows that the rich got rich through life’s unfair lottery and not by any hard work and perseverance. Hubby is stressed now, but I’m gonna tell him that once he gets over $200,000 all that stress disappears.
Because becoming rich is just so goddamned easy.
um, maybe you could find an example where the government didn’t investigate, try and convict and/or demote people for their actions?
Ya know, for once I thought that maybe instead of the endless blogosphere-jabs that is usually the order of the day here (paranoid sock puppeteer nutsroot wailing and nashing teeth!!!!!!!!!!!), you guys might actually look at this issue. For all the talk about “classic liberals” blah blah blah, you seem awful happy to defer to Big Brother. I’m sure if the party pushing for this started with a “D” there’d be a very different nuts and bolts look at what’s going on.
And just an aside: if telecoms did not act illegally, why do they need retrocative immunity? When it comes to Republicans, you guys go on faith. they’re the good guys, so trust and no need to verify.
Since that’s not the case, it’s good to see that all the classic liberals (said Republicans) around here can be so glib and vapidly political about all of this. Besides – by the time the next Church Committee has found out what’s really going on, all these words will have been long forgotten.
Well since steve says its Big Brother type antics, it must be. The fact that the party with a “D” next to it’s name is the one that currently controls both houses of Congress should not dissuade us from the notion that we would react differently if, say Obama was in the WH.
There is not a hope in the world of todays visitors coming to any other conclusion regarding the telcom immunity, than that it is insidious in nature. The idea that this country has historically taken sane measures such as these to help protect our lives is lost in the shuffle of outrage.
unheard of percentage for a mediocre nonproductive sector of the economy (as is the military industrial complex.)
Comments like this are why people mock you. If one’s personal health is “non-productive” and providing for the common defense is “non-productive”, I would probably shudder to think of what you might actually consider productive. Personally, health and safety seem like pretty good investments to be.
steve – It needs to be protected because they were operating in conjunction with the government. For them to cooperate in working to help ensure the common safety, and be subjected to ridiculous civil actions is laughable. Even WHEN they win every damn lawsuit filed against them, the costs will be enormous, and passed on to the customer, with women, children, and minorities being hardest hit.
All because a bunch of crazed loonwaffles, led by the likes of the NY Times and GiGi, felt something might be illegal, at some random point in the future.
Fuckers.
This FISA stuff is scary shit. It’s not just terrorists the Feds are listening in on. See:
Warrantless Wiretapping using my Covert “7001†number in a text message short code acknowledging my online payments. This continues now for over two years. Additionally my home was subjected to a sneak and peek search by what I am certain was the FBI. Christmas Eve my computer was electronically penetrated in an anti-Semitic psyops message and all of my intellectual property was stolen or destroyed. A federal agent directly under the Bush-Cheney administration threatened me with the invention of a criminal charge if I publish my book. It is my intention to expose U.S. torture programs that stretch back to the end of WWII with “Operation Paperclip” and Prescott Bush forward to the WitSec and other CIA torture programs founded on the experiments of 1600 Nazi war criminals brought to America in 1946.
Obviously, the government is also listening-in on the mentally unstable. MORE TIN-FOIL is required.
dd: “Health care doesn’t create overall wealth….”
Granted, it’s manifestly impossible in your case, data.
Not so much, since we’re neither plotting to fly planes into skyscrapers nor fraternizing with those who do.
Warrantless Wiretapping using my Covert “7001†number in a text message short code acknowledging my online payments. This continues now for over two years. Additionally my home was subjected to a sneak and peek search by what I am certain was the FBI. Christmas Eve my computer was electronically penetrated in an anti-Semitic psyops message and all of my intellectual property was stolen or destroyed. A federal agent directly under the Bush-Cheney administration threatened me with the invention of a criminal charge if I publish my book. It is my intention to expose U.S. torture programs that stretch back to the end of WWII with “Operation Paperclip†and Prescott Bush forward to the WitSec and other CIA torture programs founded on the experiments of 1600 Nazi war criminals brought to America in 1946.
Carin – Shame on you. If datadave wanted that shown all over these here innertubes, he would have done so himself.
You, sir, are an economic ignoramus of the highest order.
Thanks to the health care industry, I’m a) capable of walking for more than half an hour without excruciating pain, b) alive despite a bout of pneumonia, c) in otherwise good health.
I get inordinate value from those things. If you cannot comprehend how keeping people alive, productive, and happy creates wealth, then you should shut up when people with functional brains are discussing matters.
Carin – that was some good grade A crazy you found there.
JD – well-played sir. (golf clap).
As regards telco immunity, and as Ezra Levant has already discovered: there is no need for actual punishment, when merely having to be dragged through the legal system for no good reason, defending yourself against spurious charges raised by people who face no repercussions even when their case is proven baseless, is by itself punishment enough in terms of time and resources lost. In Mr. Levant’s own words, the process is the punishment.
In short, even when what they’re doing is perfectly within the law, they still need protection from the roving packs of pissy class-action lawyers. Turns out that the promise of having to defend oneself against lawsuits unending has a bit of a, shall we say, “chilling effect” on numerous activities, ranging from free expression to national defense and beyond.
Just because, steverino, we recognise that during wartime the government needs to have certain, limited powers to, you know, “secure the common defense.” You see, defending our country against all enemies foreign and domestic is one of the enumerated powers in the constitution. The fact that it’s under the FISA program (founded in 1978 under a Democratic President with Republican support) indicates a certain level of control and, to date, no proof of any illegal activities related to this program has been found in any court of law. (The shouted voices in your head don’t count.)
Also, feel free to mention any documented instance of this program infringing on the rights of any US citizen. The fact that the left has chosen now to challenge the “legality” of FISA and its use is the very reason why the Telecom companies have asked for immunity, a request they did not feel the need to pursue during past administrations, both Republican and Democrat.
But feel free to cackle on about Big Brother and “You limited government hypocrites” or some other blathering nonsense.
As to how we know it’s illegal if it’s secret: if the government wanted to wiretap terrorists, they could get FISA warrants (retroactively if necessary). Since they didn’t try to get FISA warrants, it’s clear that they weren’t wiretapping “terrorists.” One must therefore assume that Bush was following in the footsteps of such Democratic presidents as JFK and LBJ, and wiretapping political enemies. FISA was passed because every previous president, of either party, had wiretapped his political enemies.
That’s the difference between Bush cultists and normal people; normal people want the government to catch terrorists, while Bush cultists want the government to wiretap its political enemies instead of terrorists (since, again, if they were going after terrorists, they’d be getting warrants).
You’re a parody, right, Tarquin?
Crap! “provide for the common defense.”
Yes, I’m a moron today.
You’re a parody, right, Tarquin?
Do you deny that JFK, LBJ and Nixon all used wiretapping to spy on their political enemies? Is it your contention that Bush is a nobler, better, awesomer guy than all who came before him?
FISA was passed to counter unchecked government spying, at a time when we faced real threats, not a few idiots with box-cutters. To believe that Bush was not breaking the FISA law in order to spy on political enemies, you have to believe that Bush is different from all pre-FISA presidents. Don’t quite see it.
OK, so why do the telecoms need retroactive amnesty again? In between calling me a libturd et al. no one actually got to that – just so y’all know.
The closest tries were that we need it for security (The spying itself maybe you can make this point – but the retroactive immunity?), and that we need it becasue of frivolous lawsuits (what big business does not have this problem? Are they going to get retroactive immunity as protection from stupid law suits as well?).
This WOULD put a lid on finding out exactly what type of surveillance has been going on – becasue we don’t know. Shouldn’t that raise some level of skepticism?
if the government wanted to wiretap terrorists, they could get FISA warrants (retroactively if necessary). Since they didn’t try to get FISA warrants, it’s clear that they weren’t wiretapping “terrorists.†One must therefore assume that Bush was following in the footsteps of such Democratic presidents as JFK and LBJ, and wiretapping political enemies.
The faith-based left, ladies and gentlemen! Aren’t they great?
Tarquin, I think your argument boils down to, “JFK, LBJ, what else do I have to say, we didn’t start the fire, etc…” I think it’s been said before, to tell the truth.
BTW, everybody, why don’t you just ignore DataDave? We all know that trolls get an almost sexual thrill from being idiots (nothing else could adequately explain their mindless behavior and unstoppable drive). So we should force him to get his jollies in other ways that are embarass him less and which are less disreputable. Like maybe somebody knows some good transvestite hookers they could turn him on to or something.
Oh yeah, and Steve, it’s because the groups suing the Telecoms and Eeeeevil Bushco really don’t give a flying f*** about the country’s security, they aim to make it impossible to do any sort of intelligence work. A good first step would be to reveal, for all the world, the technical and logistical details of signals int in open court proceedings. Embarassing telecoms and making it impossible for them to cooperate with US intelligence agencies – litigation cost alone would prevent this, even assuming such cooperation is fully legal – would be enough to shut down NSA’s operations. After all, if any nexus with the U.S. is enough to require a warrant – including telecom switches in satellites and telcom sattelite infrastructure – then most overseas monitoring is going to go away. *That’s* the goal. Has nothing to do with good government, though I must admit, many of the useful idiots on that side of the argument are rather charming in their good intentions.
Okay, Tarquin, let’s check out the old thinking department:
Care to back that up with a source or is that “clearly” what the spirits told you during the seance?
Assumption being the cornerstone of jurisprudence and critical analysis. Tarquin assumes so we are obligated to BELIEVE!! Of course he has no sources because IT’S A SECRET DON’CHA KNOW!
Every last damn one of them! Ford, Carter, Reagan, BUBBA!!! Every. Damn. One. However “The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) of 1978 is a U.S. federal law prescribing procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of “foreign intelligence information” between or among “foreign powers” on territory under United States control.[1] 50 USC Chapter 36. It was the foreign presidents on US territory, LOL!
We “abnormal” people don’t understand the Tarquin calculus:
JFK + LBJ + Nixon = wiretaps on political opponents (pre FISA)
Bush = Warrantless wiretaps on foreign terror suspects
Warrantless Wiretaps = Spying on Political opponents
Every. Damn. Time.
And yet those “idiots with boxcutters” managed to kill over 3000 Americans in a declared holy war, more than the Soviets managed in 40 years. Funny, that.
They’re the same! THEY’RE ALL ALIKE THOSE STINKIN’ PRESIDENTS!!!
BWAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Thanks Tarquin! I haven’t had that good a lunatic laugh since we were discussing Mile High Dirt Berms!™ You are waaaaaayyyy funnier than dataless dave or Semi-conscious. Bravo!
BJTexs, your mistake is summed up when you write:
“Bush = Warrantless wiretaps on foreign terror suspects”
You have no evidence that the warrantless wiretaps are on “foreign terror suspects.” (You even support bills to make sure no one will ever have to provide evidence.) If Bush wanted to wiretap “foreign terror suspects,” he could do so with warrants, including retroactive warrants.
So you’re saying that Bush was wiretapping terror suspects but didn’t want to get a warrant even though a) the law said he had to and b) the law makes it easy to get warrants for terror suspects.
That’s the ultimate in BDS – deranged love of Bush, to the point that you are willing to believe the ridiculous story that warrantless wiretaps were all about “foreign terror suspects.”
No, the point is clear: liberals want to wiretap terrorists, conservatives want the government to spy on random Americans.
I wrote: If Bush wanted to wiretap “foreign terror suspects,†he could do so with warrants, including retroactive warrants.
To clarify, of course, Bush needs no warrants to wiretap foreigners in other countries. He does need a warrant to wiretap Americans in America, even if they’re talking to other countries (as opposed to making up a BS story that an American calling a foreign country is not a “domestic communication”).
Do you deny that JFK, LBJ and Nixon all used wiretapping to spy on their political enemies? Is it your contention that Bush is a nobler, better, awesomer guy than all who came before him?
This is some damn fine logic. Although I think you could have saved yourself some time had you just written Boooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!
We all would have known what you meant.
defending our country against all enemies foreign and domestic is one of the enumerated powers in the constitution
BJ – You know better than that. Enumerated schumerated. The only things that really matter are penumbras and privacy. 1st Amendment? Pshaw. 2nd Amendment? Trample at will. Enumerated powers? Powers not granted the federal government, nor denied the states … ring a bell? That fight was lost looooooooooooong ago.
a time when we faced real threats, not a few idiots with box-cutters.
That turned out to be a pretty real threat, no? Douchenozzle.
So, to summarize, datelessdave, KKKleo, and now a disciple, Tarquin, would have us believe that there are various reasons for the illegality of the program, ranging from authoritarianism run amok, to evil intention, to an elaborate cover to just wiretap political opponents. Good Allah, Tarquin, how do you manage to blink without getting confused?
No, the point is clear: liberals want to wiretap terrorists, conservatives want the government to spy on random Americans.
Again, Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!
That brain of yours, I think she is a bit retarded yes?
“Oh yeah, and Steve, it’s because the groups suing the Telecoms and Eeeeevil Bushco really don’t give a flying f*** about the country’s security, they aim to make it impossible to do any sort of intelligence work.”
And courts can’t determine if this is so? Come on.
“A good first step would be to reveal, for all the world, the technical and logistical details of signals int in open court proceedings. ”
There are all sorts of ways of having court proceredings while shielding this sort of thing from the public. This point is more absurd than the last.
“Embarassing telecoms and making it impossible for them to cooperate with US intelligence agencies – litigation cost alone would prevent this, even assuming such cooperation is fully legal – would be enough to shut down NSA’s operations.”
Even if courts gave their stamp of approval that their activity is legal? What would be embarrassing about legal activity? Wouldn’t that THWART the efforts of these evil-doer civil-rights types to smear telecoms? Wouldn’t it be easier to achieve this goal with lies than to LOSE in court?
“After all, if any nexus with the U.S. is enough to require a warrant – including telecom switches in satellites and telcom sattelite infrastructure – then most overseas monitoring is going to go away. *That’s* the goal. Has nothing to do with good government, though I must admit, many of the useful idiots on that side of the argument are rather charming in their good intentions.”
what is their real goal? Are they working w/ Al Quaeda?
And courts can’t determine if this is so? Come on.
Perhaps you missed the part in US Government 101 in which the legislative branch is the one that makes the laws. If they say that the telecoms have immunity in this regard, then it carries with it the weight of constitutionally. I suppose you also missed the part that it isn’t the Republicans which are running that branch currently. Why do you hate the legislature steve? What do you have against the process that we have been using for over 200 years? You, sir, want to shred the Constitution.
as opposed to making up a BS story that an American calling a foreign country is not a “domestic communicationâ€Â).
How exactly, is this BS ? Is your standard that if any domestic number is involved that it is always a domestic call? How does your phone bill handle those calls? Domestic or international/foreign?
liberals want to wiretap terrorists, conservatives want the government to spy on random Americans.
Thanks for the good laugh. I think that there are plenty of liberals that may truly want to do so. I think there is a dangerous amount of liberals that would destroy intelligence gathering because of their feelings about the sitting President.
If they say that the telecoms have immunity in this regard, then it carries with it the weight of constitutionally
I suppose I need to add, unless and until the USSC says otherwise.
“when we faced real threats, not a few idiots with box-cutters’
Really? Tarquin, you ignorant slut. Yes, no real threats here. Tell that to the 3,000 people who dies on 9/11/01. And to the 6 dead and 1,000’s hurt 8 years earlier. You fucking dick.
Steve, you’re the only I’ll address as you’re (at least, imo)the only non-moron. What do you think the federal government should do to protect it’s citizens in regards to the Jihadist threat? BJ’s comment (#83) was pretty good, imo. The actions taken have not been in a vacuum. This is a different threat. I am really interested in hearing your take on this. What precautions, or actions, should the US government take to protect it’s citizens in this struggle against jihadism. I’ve read you before, so I know you recognize the struggle. I am curious in your response. Thanks in advance.
steve – Assuming for the sake of arguement that all of the evil action you attribute to the Bush admin are found to have happened, and been contrary to the law, how was any individual damaged or injured?
#92 is a whole lot of bat shit crazy. Are we sure Tarqui isn’t anecdotaldave in disguise? BTW, Al, you said it best. Ignore the loons.
steve – If you call Achmed in Beirut, does your telephone carrier consider that a domestic or international/foreign call?
Really? Tarquin, you ignorant slut. Yes, no real threats here. Tell that to the 3,000 people who dies on 9/11/01. And to the 6 dead and 1,000’s hurt 8 years earlier. You fucking dick.
You are apparently unable to tell the difference between terrorism and an actual existential threat. The Oklahoma City Bombing didn’t prove we faced an existential threat from white dudes (though I’m sure there are some batty liberals who think so, but they’re wrong). The fact that we suffered a terrorist attack affected different people in different ways, but some cowardly girly-men apparently decided that one terrorist attack every eight years is a threat comparable to the Soviet Union.
Is your standard that if any domestic number is involved that it is always a domestic call?
It’s my standard that if an American makes a phone call in America, and the government spies on him, then the government is spying on an American. That doesn’t change if he’s talking to someone overseas.
No, the point is clear: liberals want to wiretap terrorists, conservatives want the government to spy on random Americans.
Prove it. Do you have ANY support for this? “The point is clear?” Give me a break. Have any random Americans been spied on? Last I heard, the canard about people’s library reading lists being checked by the Feds hadn’t even ever been used.
OH RIGHT. Of course, since it’s all hush-hush, Bushco is prolly spying on ALL OF US AND WE DON’T KNOW IT. Just like Blackfile7002 up there I linked…
I’ll just start with one point that seems to have been missed.
There are all sorts of ways of having court proceredings while shielding this sort of thing from the public. This point is more absurd than the last.
I’m sure Lynne Stewart could tell you all of them too.
From 25 April 2007
“Lynne Stewart Disbarred:
The Associated Press reports that Lynne Stewart has been disbarred for helping one of her clients, Omar Abdel-Rahman, communicate with his fellow terrorists from prison. For these acts, Stewart was convicted of providing material support to terrorists.”
The term that you are searching for to describe this (and harassment lawsuits, etc) is “Lawfare.”
PT
Tarquin, you ignorant slut (;-) I think I can speak for the collective when we say we do not give a flying fuck what your opinion is. Just because you feel something, does not make it true.
Are you arguing that the government does not have the ability to enforce its borders? That we cannot legally search people and objects crossing our borders?
only certain ones, and I know people that had a part in monitoring a few for the FBI.
“It’s wellknown that medical health care is 17 percent of the total national costs of everything.”
I just realized that if you imagine a Barney Fife voice while reading datadave it makes it entertaining as hell.
So we should simply accept that, occasionally, some of us are gonna get murdered in large numbers by people who are pissed off that we let our women walk around with skin exposed to sunlight?
Some of us prefer the second option that Hamlet offered in his soliloquy.
Ok, suddenly you became far less humorous and far more annoying in your simplistic thinking. That statement has about five different shades of ignorant painted over a primer of fool’s gold.
Why weren’t the evil racist white guys considered an existential threat? I’ll take you through this step by step so you won’t fall behind. They were a domestic threat because of their determination to overthrow the government and damage national institutions but they never had wide support and were often too visible for their own good. Ultimately the FBI buried them and made them far less of a domestic threat, mainly because of the impetus of resources and manpower allocated in the wake of the O.C. bombing. There are a few of them out there but they are far less of a threat than they were in the eighties due to wiretaps, informants and vigorous allocation of resources.
Radical jihadists represent a far more existential threat for the following reasons:
1) They are completely fanatical and, unlike whitey, are perfectly willing to die in the midst of an operation to insure success.
2) They have developed over the years a pretty efficient network through al Qaeda, the Muslim brotherhood and other jihadist organizations.
3) They have the sort of funding from various Muslim sources that whitey could only dream about. This makes their ability to acquire big bangy things and train the smarter jihadists in how to set off the big bangy things way more effective than whitey in Idaho at the mountainside compound.
4) Many of the jihadists have supporting nations, especially from the Shiite side, such as Hezbollah and others. The nations (especially Iran) provide funds, material and, most importantly, training in the proper out fitting and use of big bangy things and splodey dope suicide bombers. Nation states supporting whitey?
5) There is literally a mountain of evidence obtained over the last several years that radical jihadists are trying to acquire chemical, biological and radiological weapons to use in the west, especially the US. Even the Soviets were hesitant and careful when it came to the potential for nuclear engagement with our nation. Not so the splodey dopes. There isn’t an intelligence officer or working foreign services pro with half a brain who wouldn’t nod firmly yes if asked whether or not we can count on the jihadists using any of the above if they had the opportunity to acquire and deploy them. Whitey tends to shy away from the most egregious devices as they don’t tend to push their agenda and win friends. Jihadists just don’t give a crap. Try to imagine the economic damage that could be done to our country is a suicide jihadist exploded a suicide dirty bomb in, say. port of Los Angeles. How about simultaneously with one in Port of Houston? How do we respond?
6) Lastly there is that little declaration of war and the concurrent and following fatwas calling for the fires of destruction to rain down upon America and the rest of the crusaders. Sometimes we should just pay attention when people declare war on us and have 1-5 above to count on.
Thus, Tarquin, your comparison to whitey is a crock and a laughing stock, except for the fact that you don’t see the threat and would have us burrow into a hole and not worry about it. Treat them like criminals, right?
Maggie, I sure hope RTO isn’t reading this. If he is, check his blood pressure.
Comment by Tarquin on 1/24 @ 2:01 pm #
You have no evidence that the warrantless wiretaps are on “foreign terror suspects.
You have no evidence that they aren’t.
“Perhaps you missed the part in US Government 101 in which the legislative branch is the one that makes the laws. If they say that the telecoms have immunity in this regard, then it carries with it the weight of constitutionally.”
Who disputed this, becasue I did not? If the law passes and gets signed, it’s the law. WHY does THIS law NEED to be passed? The courts can’t be trusted to tell whether the OLD law was broken or not?
“I suppose you also missed the part that it isn’t the Republicans which are running that branch currently. Why do you hate the legislature steve? What do you have against the process that we have been using for over 200 years? You, sir, want to shred the Constitution.”
YOu are confused or something…. I’ll have to put you in JD territory unless you start making sense.
I’ll tell ya, Obstreperous Infidel, I’m flattered.:
“What do you think the federal government should do to protect it’s citizens in regards to the Jihadist threat? BJ’s comment (#83) was pretty good, imo. The actions taken have not been in a
vacuum. This is a different threat. I am really interested in hearing your take on this. What precautions, or actions, should the US government take to protect it’s citizens in this struggle against jihadism. I’ve read you before, so I know you recognize the struggle. I am curious in your response.”
Well, for starters, spying and surveillance – and in ways that we should NOT be privy to. My problem is not the programs per se. HOw could they be? I don’t know what they are.
My problem is that I want others in the judiciary and legislative branch to BE privy, and do somethin g if real abuse happens. Many things have made me suspicious. There were plenty of answers that Alberto Gonzales gave under oath that intimated the existence of completely domestic warrantless surveilance programs – which I think, if they exist, is wrong. The fact that these companies need immunity – from what? What US citizen can possibly sue them for damages if they did nothing wrong?
I have no problem with retroactive warrants so that hands are not tied. But in the end, a warrant should be involved, retroactively if need be, anytime a US citizen on US soil is on the phone.
Again, I’m not saying they can’t listen – and right now, no running to a court and missing somethign. I just want the judiciary to know who they are and why they’re being listened to at some point. That’s all. Keep doin’ what you’re doin’ – just tell a judge.
What’s your boy say? Trust, but verify? That’s where I am.
Search and seizure restrictions, aka The Fourth Amendment, are pretty limited at the borders. Why should electronic communications be any different than surface mail or a live person?
Thanks, steve. I have so many questions with all of this, so I like to hear non-hysterical voices on both sides of the political spectrum.
My, oh my. So many ‘classic liberals’ here seem to have no problem
circumventing the principles for which so many have made the supreme sacrifice in order to keep themselves ‘safe’ from terrorists.
Sir Thomas More had the right idea. Read and learn.
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!
Because of course having a free and prosperous society means we have to just lay down and die if the terrorists tell us to.
Thanks to semanticpussycat for illustrating the unhinged moronic hyperbolic left. Right on cue.
nope, and I don’t think I’ll let him till after dinner and karaoke. ;D don’t get him started on the militia movement. you have been warned.
“Right on cue.”
When you hit the ‘cue’ ball, let me know. What life must be like for those perpetually behind the ‘eight’ ball.
Sir Thomas More had the right idea. Read and learn.
William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Blind Howling Moonbat: Question Authority!
William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
Blind Howling Moonbat:Speak Truth to Power!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!
Blind Howling Moonbat: Attica! Attica!Attica!Attica!Attica!
Yeah, Steve, what I’m asserting is that if you run a Fortune 100 company and a bunch of protestors and ACLU and Center for Constitutional Rights (run by avowed communist revolutionaries, BTW) are on your ass, and the NY Times Op Ed page is on your ass, you don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut whether a court thinks what you are doing is ultimately determined to be legal by some court after a protracted battle in a case that will take a decade to decide and be like catnip to the Supreme Court. What you care about is that your name is getting dragged through the dirt and this is going to take corporate profits, call them Fredo, and invite them on a little fishing trip. A CEO would do pretty much anything to avoid that kind of controversy.
How do you think Jesse Jackson and the PUSH coalition make so much money? Do you really think the PUSH payoffs are always linked and somehow directly proportional to real wrongdoing?
Weak…even for a lefty retard.
And yes, for a while, overseas signals int collection required a warrant, thanks to our robed masters. (Ps. I’m a lawyer. Why the f*** you’d ever trust un-elected, appointed-for-life elderly lawyers to resolve questions like this is utterly beyond me. Young lawyers are generally clueless, old lawyers are generally clueless and senile… Cripes.) The last FISA extension bill fixed the no-overseas-monitoring-but-for-warrant, but that bill expires in a couple weeks.
Uh. Actually the US government has been monitoring all overseas wires since 1941(FDR). To be honest I’m more worried how 900 FBI files of republicans and conservatives got on HRCs desk when her husband ran the country.
conservatives want the government to spy on random Americans.
You know something Tarquin? Even conservatives aren’t interested in wasting taxpayer money to listen to you attempt to jerkoff on the 900letMommyspankyou line.
“…I’m more worried how 900 FBI files of republicans and conservatives got on HRCs desk…”
They broke in illegally without a warrant looking for those Rose Law Firm billing records that didn’t exist.
BECAUSE OF THE FASCISM!
BJ
That statement has about five different shades of ignorant painted over a primer of fool’s gold.
Well said. Well said, indeed.
What US citizen can possibly sue them for damages if they did nothing wrong?
How about we start with all of the ones that have already tried, and have got tossed. Next, we will line up all of the potential plaintiffs and classes being discussed and formed. The list of US citizen that could possibly sue is practically endless, regardless of whether or not anything was done wrong. Is the fact that civil Court and the newspapers being completely inappropriate venues for this matter to be resolved just a completely foreign concept to you?
anytime a US citizen on US soil
Were this a law enforcement activity, police action, maybe that might be reasonable. Fortunately, not even the Dems in the House or Senate would be willing to do this far.
[…] Child Blue Patriotic Cheerleader Costume on Messrs. Greenwald, Ellensburg, Ellers and Wilson Go To Washington [Karl] […]
Well, the libtards are just, well, you know…retarded.