June 28, 2007
Shamnesty Shocker: Senate feels the heat, beats retreat

53-46. Here’s the roll.

Allah liveblogged the thing — leaving me time to concentrate on the important issues like Liz and JohnJohn — and breaks out the humping robot.

Of course, as Nanonymous notes in another thread, we are essentially celebrating the last of the President’s political capital having been pissed away. And, may I add, on something engineered in large part by Teddy Kennedy — who is as impervious to political fallout as Mary Jo Kopechne was to being able to breathe pond water.

Actual fallout? Well, aside from this being Bush’s last stand, McCain — who was done a while ago — is now so done that best chance he has for garnering the Republican nomination is if he’s somehow quickly reincarnated as a candidate completely opposite of John McCain.

Like, say, Fred Thompson with Romney’s shoulders.

Too, Mitch McConnell should take a hit — as Allah notes.

Lindsay Graham? He may as well shave his head, buy an El Camino, and get himself one of them teardrop tattooes.

Make no mistake. Americans want immigration reform. But what they don’t want is something that masquerades as reform, but does nothing to please voters — and is only really attractive to competing politicians who each believe that an influx of Latino voters will help them.

Rule of law enforced. Border security increased. A renewed push to aid transition by providing naturalization services. Then increased immigration and an expanded guest worker program.

— That these wishes have been painted as the whooping cries of anti-Mexican yahoos and would-be nativist militia members — with a great deal of success, too — is a testament to ease with which we now are willing to lob charges of “hate speech” at one another like so many balls of fried ice cream.

223 Comments  :::   Post a comment »

  1. Comment by timb on 6/28 @ 10:33 am #

    Just the best news I’ve heard all week. Thanks

  2. Comment by Lost My Cookies on 6/28 @ 10:33 am #

    Fried ice cream? What the hell do you have against Cinnasticks? Hater!

  3. Comment by JD on 6/28 @ 10:46 am #

    The only downside I see is that the “fear of the brown people” will become a campaign mantra.

  4. Comment by cranky-d on 6/28 @ 10:47 am #

    I’m surprised and pleased. I figured the cloture vote would pass and this would be a done deal.

    Next time I hope they actually bring on some reform, rather than another piece of feel-good legislation that does nothing to address the concerns of most of us.

  5. Comment by ThePolishNizel on 6/28 @ 10:47 am #

    Ummmm….fried ice cream! Chi Chi’s loss was also my loss.

  6. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 10:50 am #

    Do the american people really want expanded guest worker as part of reform? Do you? I haven’t read any good arguments for it. What are the arguments for that?

  7. Comment by Jim in KC on 6/28 @ 10:55 am #

    Ask the Senate, shine. That’s their baby.

    Enforcement before political goodies is the point.

  8. Comment by timb on 6/28 @ 10:57 am #

    Seriously, thanks for all you guys did to stop this thing.

  9. Comment by Nanonymous on 6/28 @ 11:03 am #

    And I thank you for your generous nod. As I said, I only wish we were celebrating an advance, rather than a barely successful rearguard action against our own army.

  10. Comment by Tman on 6/28 @ 11:04 am #

    The WSJ editorial board is probably angrily assembling an editorial as we speak.

    Boy did that paper blow it on this one. They usually have their heads screwed on right about most conservative values, but they were on planet Lott for this one. Too bad.

  11. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 11:05 am #

    “Ask the Senate, shine. That’s their baby.”

    I know business interests want it. But Jeff mentioned it right after talking about how americans want immigration reform. Which I took to mean he was describing the sort of reform americans wanted.

    I’d be surprised if jeff was in favor. Its really bad for assimilation purposes. Maybe not as bad as people being illegal and whatever “rule of law enforced” means in these times. But still bad.

    Which is why I’m asking for explanations. But you could be right that this is just a compromise he or the american people would favor.

  12. Comment by Jeffersonian on 6/28 @ 11:12 am #

    I know business interests want it. But Jeff mentioned it right after talking about how americans want immigration reform.

    I took it as a generic “enforcement first, permission later” statement, not necessarly endorsement of any specific initiative. I agree that a guest worker program is not generally a good thing, though work visas are common things in every nation around.

  13. Comment by Jeff G. on 6/28 @ 11:12 am #

    It’s a compromise I think many conservatives would favor were it coupled with meaningful reform.

    I certainly would.

  14. Comment by timb on 6/28 @ 11:14 am #

    Nanonymous,
    I’m thanking you guys, because you’ve done more to help the progressive cause then all the Elizabeth Edwards’s in the world could do. I heart this Phyrric victory for you guys.

    Although I have no strong feelings either way on immigration: I tend to lean toward allowing people who want to work into my country, and my wife’s father was an illegal immigrant before he married my mother-in-law…but, I’m not too much of a fan of the source of illegality that is that border, be it people slipping through illegally to pick strawberries (or die in the desert), smuggle drugs, or so some unscrupulous employer can work them hard with no legal protections. For those reasons, I’m torn.

    In reality, the bill sounded fine to me. But, I learned to love it, since it splits the Republican coalition right down the middle, stripping the corporate money folks from the populist base. Further, it drives millions of very legal Hispanic voters into the Democratic Party. I see nothing but blue skies.

    You guys were instrumental in making that happen. Thanks again.

  15. Comment by Nanonymous on 6/28 @ 11:16 am #

    “Nanonymous,
    I’m thanking you guys, because you’ve done more to help the progressive cause then all the Elizabeth Edwards’s in the world could do. I heart this Phyrric victory for you guys.”

    I wasn’t thanking you, asshat. I was thanking Jeff.

    My apologies, Jeff, for any confusion.

  16. Comment by Jeff G. on 6/28 @ 11:18 am #

    Tim has been trying all morning to get people to bite on his “thank you” line.

    When nobody did, he just vomited up his planned rejoinder anyway.

    Funny thinking how he must have fumed while nobody took the bait.

    By the way, Timmy. There were plenty of Democrats against this reform measure, too.

  17. Comment by Jeff G. on 6/28 @ 11:20 am #

    Also, Timmy assumes the bulk of Hispanics favor law breaking. So they’ll go running to the Dems.

    The soft bigotry of low expectations, somebody once called that.

  18. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 11:22 am #

    I see. It is something you would favor and accept as part of a compromise where you got other wishes. I didn’t imagine you would favor guest worker on its own, and I was curious as to what you saw in it.

  19. Comment by JD on 6/28 @ 11:25 am #

    Why isn’t this viewed as a failure of Sen. Reid’s leadership? After all, he and Rep. Pelosi are in charge.

    timmah - For every emotional appeal based on an illegal in-law, there is an equally compelling story, if not more so, based on the personal experiences of legal immigrants.

  20. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 11:29 am #

    “Also, Timmy assumes the bulk of Hispanics favor law breaking. So they’ll go running to the Dems.”

    I think its that they disfavor this sort of rhetoric that talks about “law breaking” when in fact we are all law breakers. That and sometimes, just sometimes, they might get the feeling that this “enforcement” would mistakenly be applied to them, or be used hassle them.

  21. Comment by cranky-d on 6/28 @ 11:31 am #

    For my take, enforcement first. Once the borders are mostly secure (since having them perfectly secure would be almost impossible) we can talk about the rest, such as putting the illegals already here on some path to legalization, as well as start talking about a guest worker program.

    Both of those things are compromises, since I have trouble letting illegals jump the line ahead of those who have done things legally, and I’m not sure a guest worker program is that great an idea. However, I cannot see mass deportation as a practical alternative. And yes, I know employer sanctions will cause self-deportation, but I’m not sure what the result of the shock on the economy might be. You can’t only do one thing.

  22. Comment by timb on 6/28 @ 11:32 am #

    Yeah, I know my wife is always talking how cool it is for people to break the law and she just loves the idea that people like Tom Tancredo want to deport her father….way to go with the cartoon (do all those people have bandoleers and speak like Sppedy Gonzalez in your mind?), Jeff, AND a reductio absurdum.

    I remember Prop 187…I’ll have McGehee tell every Democratic Hispanic voter in California for you that he/she favors illegal activities. It may take him awhile to contact the 65% of Hispanics who vote Democrat in California, but we’ll see if they approve of your characterization.

    Shorter me: I’ll pit my “bigotry of low expectations”/family concerns of American voters against the Republican base’s bigotry. We’ll see who will win.

  23. Comment by The_Real_JeffS on 6/28 @ 11:32 am #

    Senate feels the heat, beats retreat

    This is the new motto for the Senate of the United States of America, brought to you by those fun lovin’ progressives, Harry Reid, Ted Kennedy, John McCain, et al.

  24. Comment by Mr. Boo on 6/28 @ 11:43 am #

    Timb’s world is a great one. His shrill histrionics don’t even have to make sense. Just asserting racism makes it so.

  25. Comment by JD on 6/28 @ 11:52 am #

    It is bigotry to enforce existing laws. Bigotry, I tell you.

  26. Comment by Ric Locke on 6/28 @ 11:59 am #

    Jeff and the PW Commentariat are and will be celebrating this result, and for good reason.

    Lefties, including trolls, will consider it unfortunate and attack it, for the same reason(s).

    It’s probably true elsewhere as well, but here in the U.S. it’s fairly common for us to debate an issue by avoiding meeting it directly, instead waxing enthusiastic about something else. That’s very definitely the case here. Yes, there are bigots (on both sides) involved, but what we’ve really been talking about underneath all the bloviation has very little to do with Mexicans or their acceptance (or otherwise) in America. “Immigration” is simply a proxy.

    The real issue is multiculturalism as expressed in the Balkanization of the American polity. I can report that in the circle I live among (Texas trailer trash, pretty much) there is very little or no opposition to Mexicans as Mexicans, and when “I hate/fear brown people” pops up it gets fairly thoroughly ridiculed. The attitude would be very much the same if the New Guys were six-foot blond Aryans, if (a) they had a culture very different from that of Mainstream America, (b) they insisted on preserving that culture and forcing it on the rest of us, and (c) they had allies within the American Establishment that insisted on allowing and enforcing (b).

    We have plenty of room, both territorial and economic, to accommodate twelve million immigrants, or double or triple that. Our unemployment rate is well under five percent; if you’d suggested that was possible to economists and politicians as recently as twenty years ago you’d have gotten a reaction that flatly declared you insane, that such a thing wasn’t possible. As for culture, ours has been wrenched almost out of all recognition of its mainly-British origins by successive waves of immigrants, and will be again; and that’s a good thing. But the way that works is that immigrants attempt to get along with our culture, to assimilate, while simultaneously hanging on to elements of their origin culture — and the resulting tension modifies both: our culture shifts to accommodate the things in the immigrants’ culture that we find valuable to us, and the immigrants’ children adopt our (thus modified) culture. If the demand is that we do all the accommodating, and the immigrants are allowed or required to preserve their own culture intact, the system doesn’t work. And it is that that failed today.

    Immigrants can be divided into two broad groups: those who wish to change their allegiance and become Americans, and those who wish only to take advantage of our stronger economy to gain wealth and power and go home. We can easily accommodate both, and any legislation should reflect that: people who wish to assimilate should be encouraged to do so, and a legal structure for “guest workers” that takes into account both their interests and ours should be erected. What we cannot accommodate is importation of an alien culture intact, especially when it contradicts our own in ways that weaken both. American culture is a remarkable generator of wealth. Introducing cultural factors that damage or destroy that ability — such as the patrón system and the corruption inherent in it — cannot be tolerated.

    So, multicultis, you lost big today. It remains to be seen whether that’s just a battle victory for us in a long war which you will ultimately win, or an indicator of a sea-change in the struggle, which has been going all your way lately.

    Regards,
    Ric

  27. Comment by Darleen on 6/28 @ 12:03 pm #

    timb

    Maybe you missed this:

    A new report show illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $35 million in welfare and food stamp allocations in May, announced Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.

    Just because a majority of CA Hispanic’s vote Dem to put someone else’s earnings into their pockets doesn’t make those of us who believe socialism destroys civilization are bigots … or in the case of the remaining 35% of Hispanic voters–race traitors.

    Try again, apologist.

  28. Comment by syn on 6/28 @ 12:05 pm #

    timb

    Master Mayor Bloomberg, icon of the Collectivist Plantation Platform, loves you for helping to make slave supporters of undocumented workers see blue skies ahead.

    Personally, I find it creepy that our neighbors across the border are forcibly governed by a socialist corrupt government whose economic plan for creating prosperity for their own poverty stricken citizens involves handing them a map which shows the path through a barren, desolate desert leading towards the land of opportunity with the intention of working in the shadows in order to send money back to the corrupt government of Mexico which sends them to the land of opportunity in the first place. Of course the poverty stricken Mexican citizens are too hungry and too tired to demand that their own socialist government get off their billionaire asses, fight the corruption within Mexico and create fair and just labor laws for their own citizens.

    All this current bill did was to legalize illegals in order to expand the Collectivist Slave Plantation so that several million more can cross the border to do the jobs that the wave of newly legalized illegals can’t do because they are now legal citizens.

    I guess it is expected coming from the Collectivist platform, the Open Borders crowd align themselves with the Global Corporatist crowd as in ‘we need open borders to bring cheap labor to support the Billionaire Collectivist Club’s lifestyle to which these elitists are accustomed’

  29. Comment by Jeff G. on 6/28 @ 12:20 pm #

    Ric –

    Given how much time and energy I’ve spent illuminating the multiculturalist project for the illiberal bit of social engineering it is, I’m surprised that few of the trolls have put two and two together to figure out why I stand where I stand on this issue.

    Speedy Gonzales? Jesus Christ, it’s like debating with fucking junior high schoolers in high dudgeon over their prom theme being rejected by adults because “Tonight We Blow” is just a bit too suggestive.

    Shine writes:

    I see. It is something you would favor and accept as part of a compromise where you got other wishes. I didn’t imagine you would favor guest worker on its own, and I was curious as to what you saw in it.

    Well, it’s something I’d favor along with the other wishes, because the other wishes would make the program more amenable to American cultural, which is assimilationist.

    But on their own, I still support guest worker programs, and I have for a long time. I just prefer they be tied to other reforms that I find beneficial, all else being equal.

  30. Trackback by Darleen's Place on 6/28 @ 12:21 pm #

    Amnesty bill is killed…

    WashingtonThe bill’s Senate supporters fell 14 votes short of the 60 needed to limit debate and clear the way for final passage of the legislation, which critics assailed as offering amnesty to illegal immigrants. The vote was 46 to 53……

  31. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 12:43 pm #

    I’m thanking you guys, because you’ve done more to help the progressive cause then all the Elizabeth Edwards’s in the world could do. I heart this Phyrric victory for you guys.

    When you say “you guys”, Timmah!, just who are you talking about? And whoever that is, do you really think they ought to be concerned about blowback from the 20% of Americans who approved of this bill? Especially when a large portion of that 20% has to be those nasty rich white corporate Republican bastards who just loves them some cheap labor?

    What in the world does this do for progressives, other than alienate them from the vast majority of Americans while they make common cause with the segment of the population they hate more than any other?

  32. Comment by BJTexs on 6/28 @ 12:46 pm #

    “It’s probably true elsewhere as well, but here in the U.S. it’s fairly common for us to debate an issue by avoiding meeting it directly, instead waxing enthusiastic about something else. That’s very definitely the case here. Yes, there are bigots (on both sides) involved, but what we’ve really been talking about underneath all the bloviation has very little to do with Mexicans or their acceptance (or otherwise) in America. “Immigration” is simply a proxy.” ric

    “Speedy Gonzales? Jesus Christ, it’s like debating with fucking junior high schoolers in high dudgeon over their prom theme being rejected by adults because “Tonight We Blow” is just a bit too suggestive.” Jeff G.

    Thanks, guys for all of that. On the subject of unserious arguments in the immigration battles let’s not forget this one from shine:

    “I think its that they disfavor this sort of rhetoric that talks about “law breaking” when in fact we are all law breakers.

    Dear Lord, save me from this cookie cutter touchy feely metaphor that connects illegally sneaking into a sovreign nation with jaywalking, littering and Jeff’s shed stain. By the calculus inherent in this multicultural relativism I would be perfectly justified welcoming and coorperating with the catburgler who breaks into my house, either to do my laundry or to club me with a mallet and make off with the family jewels. After all, I’ve stolen office supplies, including that sweet little auto stapler and those extra large post its. Who am I to raise a fuss? Unless shine has a handbook of relativistic lawbreaking then the idea that none of us have the moral authority call them illegals or lawbreakers or, hey, under arrest is a silly made up concept designed to thwart any intentions of enforcment as part of the border security/gust worker/reform package.

    Now I’m going to go fling a bale of fiery newspapers onto the side of the road and don’t any of you lawbreakers judge me!

  33. Comment by Jim in KC on 6/28 @ 12:47 pm #

    What I can’t figure out is how the Democrats got permission from Big Labor to vote yes on this travesty. Seems like an endless source of cheap labor would tend to depress the wages or potential wages of that particular constituency’s constituency. Is there a backroom trade-off on trade or something? A protectionist quid pro quo?

  34. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 12:51 pm #

    Which is why I’m asking for explanations. But you could be right that this is just a compromise he or the american people would favor.

    It’s pretty simple, shine. Clearly, we need immigrant workers. But I want them to come here legally, and I want there to be a process that facilitates that. I want to know who’s coming into our country and why. And when they get here, I want them to be able to abide by other laws, like getting drivers licences and carrying insurance. And I want the people who employ them to treat them fairly, and not exploit them. I want them to be paid according to our laws, and I want them to pay taxes according to our laws. I want them to act like guests and I want them to be treated like guests.

    You got a problem with any of that?

  35. Comment by Ric Locke on 6/28 @ 12:57 pm #

    Given how much time and energy I’ve spent illuminating the multiculturalist project for the illiberal bit of social engineering it is, I’m surprised that few of the trolls have put two and two together to figure out why I stand where I stand on this issue.

    Jeff, they cannot do so without wrecking their entire worldview.

    We’re dealing with two groups here: the cynical instigators, who won’t show up here because they don’t debate in public, and the likes of timmyb, whose ideological orientation is such that they never hear anything someone in “opposition” says — anything you propose is simply a trigger that releases a canned response from a simulation of “Jeff Goldstein” that they carry in their heads. Since there is no prerecorded response from SimulJeff that distinguishes between opposition to the multiculturalist project and opposition to the subgroups it claims to benefit, anything along that line that you produce simply does not exist from their point of view. They aren’t debating you, they’re debating a slightly-more-sophisticated ELIZA; your responses simply contain keywords that trigger the canned “opinions” which are all that reach their reasoning processes.

    I’m not sure there’s a way to break through that. It’s probably worth it to keep pounding out attempts, though.

    Regards,
    Ric

  36. Comment by Jeffersonian on 6/28 @ 12:58 pm #

    What I can’t figure out is how the Democrats got permission from Big Labor to vote yes on this travesty. Seems like an endless source of cheap labor would tend to depress the wages or potential wages of that particular constituency’s constituency. Is there a backroom trade-off on trade or something? A protectionist quid pro quo?

    Big Labor ain’t what it used to be, Jim, and where it’s booming is in government jobs, precisely where a huge influx of new immigrants will cause an expansion of employment.

  37. Comment by Talmudic Scholars on 6/28 @ 1:05 pm #

    “Speedy Gonzales? Jesus Christ, it’s like debating with fucking junior high schoolers in high dudgeon over their prom theme being rejected by adults because “Tonight We Blow” is just a bit too suggestive.”

    Remember that shine is opposed to assimilation because he fears the compromise of culinary standards.

    NO BLOOD FOR MOO GOO GAI PAN!

  38. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/28 @ 1:13 pm #

    “Speedy Gonzales? Jesus Christ, it’s like debating with fucking junior high schoolers in high dudgeon over their prom theme being rejected by adults because “Tonight We Blow” is just a bit too suggestive.”

    They wouldn’t let us have “Welcome to the Jungle” as our class song. The fascists.

  39. Comment by ThePolishNizel on 6/28 @ 1:13 pm #

    Translation of Ric’s post:

    People like timb are unserious automatons. But keep up the good work trying to teach the feebleminded.

  40. Comment by N. O'Brain on 6/28 @ 1:14 pm #

    “Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 11:29 am #

    “Also, Timmy assumes the bulk of Hispanics favor law breaking. So they’ll go running to the Dems.”

    I think its that they disfavor this sort of rhetoric that talks about “law breaking” when in fact we are all law breakers. ”

    Sorry, dooood, not all of us smoke dope down in Mom’s basement.

  41. Comment by dicentra on 6/28 @ 1:36 pm #

    Michael Medved, who was the Lone Conservative Talk-Show Host who favored the bill, made some good points on Prager last night:

    1) Insisting on border enforcement first is fine and dandy, but because it will take several years to get the fence and other measures up and working, people are going to continue to pour over the border because the honey pot hasn’t been shut down yet. You have to have employment enforcement at the same time to prevent things from getting worse.

    2) If this bill doesn’t pass, the next time it comes up it very well could be with a Dem congress and “God Forbid and thousand times” a Dem in the White House. You think this bill is bad, wait until then.

    I would be willing to vote for tough border enforcement plus employer enforcement at the same time.

    But is that chance now gone forever? Are they never going to address this issue again because they got burned so badly this time? Sheez. If they can’t take the heat, they need to get out of the refinery.

    And just for the sake of the trolls, here are a few non-racist arguments against illegal immigration.

    I really, really, really, don’t like the idea of letting the illegals stay here for the rest of their lives. There are SO many other people from SO many other countries who are just as poor, just as eager to work, just as able, just as smart, and who can’t get in because our immigration laws are so screwed up. Along with enforcement, we need to make it easier for people to get here legally, even if it doesn’t mean obtaining citizenship at first.

    Look, if Mexico were a psychotically oppressive state like North Korea or chronically war-torn like the DR of the Congo or experiencing devastating famines, it would be a much different story. But sending people back to Latin America isn’t a death sentence. They’re not going to be thrown in jail or shot by rebels or starve to death.

    They have benefited from their illegal crossing already; give someone else a turn to do it legally.

  42. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 1:44 pm #

    “Well, it’s something I’d favor along with the other wishes, because the other wishes would make the program more amenable to American cultural, which is assimilationist. But on their own, I still support guest worker programs, and I have for a long time.”

    But its decidedly anti-assimilationist — on their own or with other assimilationist things. Thats what I don’t get about your support and why I want to know what you see in it on its own.

    Here’s what I think. I think its about creating a culture of there being people here who we say don’t belong here, don’t get to stay here. But yet they’re still here. How much assimilation do you think they’ll do? I suppose they could hurry up and make moves towards permanent status, like marriage or having American citizen kids. But that strikes me as a backwards way of encouraging assimilation. And who knows if the guest worker program contains provisions that they cannot achieve permanent status via those routes.

    It seems like you’ve thought through your take on assimilation. Quite a bit. At least as it impacts progressive views of identity politics. I’d like to know more about how much you’ve thought it through as far as it impacts your views on guest workers. Or even what informs your views of guest workers other than assimilation.

    “You got a problem with any of that?”

    That describes someone who is on a path to permanent status as well. Not just someone who is here as a temporary worker. Unless your problem is with permanent status, and you just want a labor pool. Again, that creates big problems with assimilation.

    Of course, this is all ignoring how exploitable a guest worker could be — depending on how the program is set up, for example. At its worst the immigration status would depend on the employer. At its best we still have people here for a limited amount of time who can’t afford time unemployed because they are looking for better work, or because they have been fired for organizing, or other activity to improve their conditions which someone permanent might be able to do.

  43. Comment by BJTexs on 6/28 @ 1:50 pm #

    Let me address the other end of this argument.

    I have a good friend who is a kick ass specialty structural engineer. He moved his family from South Africa 2 years ago under a 5 year contract/5 year guest worker permit to work on several design projects. The company was bought out this winter and his contract was cancelled. There is, however, another engineering firm in the area who would love to hire him based upon his unique skill sets.

    Bet you can all guess where this is headed. We’re all fighting for him but the State Department doesn’t care. Policy is proceedure is the way it is and it looks like he’ll have to move back home.

    I’ve got another half a dozen stories like this one. Our entire immigration system is broken when unskilled labor moves to and fro with virtual impunity while highly skilled aliens are tortured for guest worker permits or citizenship.

    Just one more reason why shine’s “we’re all lawbreakers” meme ticks me off. Not as compelling as timmy’s illegal father-in-law but I had 2 sets of grandparents immigrate legally from Portugal so my level of sympathy is a bit low.

    Sorry about that.

  44. Comment by dicentra on 6/28 @ 2:03 pm #

    Of course, this is all ignoring how exploitable a guest worker could be — depending on how the program is set up, for example.

    Illegals are exploitable because they have no means for redress. If an employer mistreats them, underpays them, or stiffs them outright, who are they going to complain to? If they have legal status that says that they are permitted to work here, employers can’t threaten to sic la migra on them.

  45. Comment by Jeffersonian on 6/28 @ 2:12 pm #

    I’ve got another half a dozen stories like this one. Our entire immigration system is broken when unskilled labor moves to and fro with virtual impunity while highly skilled aliens are tortured for guest worker permits or citizenship.

    Bingo. In today’s CIS climate, anyone trying to follow the law in good faith has to feel like a complete sap. Our immigration system is a complete disgrace, from how it treats those wishing to come here legally as well as how is ignores those coming here illegally.

  46. Comment by happyfeet on 6/28 @ 2:17 pm #

    See? The system works. What was all that fuss about?

  47. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 2:17 pm #

    “If they have legal status that says that they are permitted to work here, employers can’t threaten to sic la migra on them.”

    It depends on how it is set up. The comment above you told the tale of a guy that lost his one employer, but now can’t quite yet get to another. That puts power in the hands of the employer. Wether it is more or less than the employer who will call “la migra” and confess to employing illegals, I do not know. But it is certainly more than those who are on a path to permanent status.

    “Our entire immigration system is broken when unskilled labor moves to and fro with virtual impunity while highly skilled aliens are tortured for guest worker permits or citizenship.”

    Bad things happen to people who are here illegally. So the impunity may in fact be virtual. I’d be surprised if your friend would be willing to do what they do. If your friend envies their social position.

    We are all lawbreakers just goes to show that rule of law rhetoric is not enough. I would be surprised if your friend never sped to work, for example. It means that we have to talk about why this law, and what could be better, and why does the law not match the reality.

  48. Comment by Ric Locke on 6/28 @ 2:20 pm #

    Shine, let’s try this slowly.

    “ASSIMILATION” IS IRRELEVANT TO GUEST WORKERS. It doesn’t matter. The concept doesn’t apply. You are mixing two different things together.

    People who want to come here permanently, to live here and be part of America, are “immigrants”. They can and should be assimilated, and they should feel both pressure to become assimilated and welcome to “the club”. Their status should be barely, if at all, distinguishable from that of citizens.

    People who want to come here temporarily, to piggyback off our strong economy to better their positions when they go home, are “guest workers”. They are not immigrants, don’t want to be assimilated, and should feel no pressure in that direction. They would not be citizens and should not be treated as such.

    That’s two, separate, independent, barely-connected categories. Things that are not equal to the same thing are not equal to each other. Display a little bit of reading comprehension, eh?

    Regards,
    Ric

  49. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/28 @ 2:27 pm #

    We are all lawbreakers just goes to show that rule of law rhetoric is not enough.

    So the violation of any given law is equal in severity to the violation of any other given law? Speeding is no less serious than fraud and identity theft?

  50. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 2:39 pm #

    “So the violation of any given law is equal in severity to the violation of any other given law?”

    No. Different laws have different punishments. But all violations of law are covered by rhetoric about how one has a problem with illegals because they are “lawbreakers” or because one believes in “the rule of law.” That makes no distinctions for severity, or other factors.

    ““ASSIMILATION” IS IRRELEVANT TO GUEST WORKERS. It doesn’t matter. The concept doesn’t apply. You are mixing two different things together.”

    I think you’re just defining away the problem. We’re still going to have people here, who aren’t welcome, and aren’t being asked to join in our society, and are actually being forced to not join. That’s balkanizing. People may be moving through, but there will still be a permanent presence of poeple.

    I would imagine it has been problematic for groups like guest working turks in Germany. But adding to their problem is that they don’t have birthright citizenship.

    Plus I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that the people who are guest workers wouldn’t prefer to have some permanent status.

  51. Comment by BJTexs on 6/28 @ 2:50 pm #

    shine, you willfully ignored the rather lengthy opinion about the whole “we are all lawbreakers” concept. I don’t give an ostrich’s tush about “law rhetoric” or the ridiculous moral relativism of “speeding” vs illegally entering a sovereign nation. You sound like a tent show evangelist (”we are all sinners, can I get an amen?”) I’m not suggesting an attempt to forcibly deport 12 million or so illegals. I’m also not suggesting blanket amnesty without fixing the whole immigration system, starting with border security and those seeking to become workers or citizens legally.

    And keep in mind that in the example above; not only does that guy have another job available to him but he has significant and unique skill sets that would benefit his employer beyond an ability to run a bobcat or bus tables. It is suicidal for a nation to continue to allow hoards of unskilled workers relatively easy access to our workforce while we force uniquely and highly skilled workers to jump through stupid hoops to contribute to our society.

    Let’s find a way to accomodate both, but intelligently and, ultimately, accomodating our national interest, not Mexico’s.

  52. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/28 @ 2:56 pm #

    But all violations of law are covered by rhetoric about how one has a problem with illegals because they are “lawbreakers” or because one believes in “the rule of law.” That makes no distinctions for severity, or other factors.

    Really? And you know this, how, exactly? Because it makes your argument simple?

    Because, really, I don’t see it that way. I consider violating the immigration laws to be a pretty serious matter, certainly more serious than speeding. I’d pretty much shrug if someone said they got a speeding ticket, but I’d consider them criminal if they drove without a license and/or insurance. Or drunk.

    Also, I don’t really have a beef if someone truly makes a mistake and over stays their visa. Take the penalty and get on with life. But if someone simply decides the rules don’t apply to them, if they intentionally set out to break the law, that’s a different matter. That’s where the issue about the rule of law comes in; the attitude that the law only applies to some people.

    Mexico decided it’s illegal for foreigners to hold title on land within 50km of the coast, or 100km of the border. If I committed fraud to get around that law, don’t you think that’s a bit more serious than speeding, or underage drinking? And isn’t that fraud pretty much the same as the fraud illegals commit every day to continue working in the US?

  53. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/28 @ 3:04 pm #

    It is suicidal for a nation to continue to allow hoards of unskilled workers relatively easy access to our workforce while we force uniquely and highly skilled workers to jump through stupid hoops to contribute to our society.

    And it is particularly damaging to the citizens who are unskilled. Labor is a highly regulated commodity in the US; that regulation adds to the cost of hiring native workers. Illegals are a black market of labor, one that skirts the regulations we have on labor, making it cheaper and thus undercutting the native labor supply.

    Essentially, you can either have worker-safety and quality-of-life regulations, labor unions and an unemployment safety net, or you can have unrestricted immigration. Trying to have both is a mess, and hurts the people all of the above are supposed to be protecting.

  54. Comment by Jeff G. on 6/28 @ 3:05 pm #

    I think you’re just defining away the problem. We’re still going to have people here, who aren’t welcome, and aren’t being asked to join in our society, and are actually being forced to not join. That’s balkanizing. People may be moving through, but there will still be a permanent presence of poeple.

    No. They WOULD be welcome, in their capacity as guest workers. And if, while here, they chose to pick up some English and learned to love the culture, that would make any future immigration or any kind of “earned citizenship” that much easier.

    But I support guest worker programs for the reasons Ric notes. It provides jobs for those who wish to piggyback off the economy and are willing to work toward economic advancement; and it provides labor — legal labor — for those industries that claim they rely on it.

  55. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 3:05 pm #

    shine,

    That describes someone who is on a path to permanent status as well.

    How so? It describes people who want to work here. Some may be interested in permanent status, others may not. Those who are should also be on an assimilation path. What I said does not address permanent status, although I and i think the vast majority of people would feel a whole lot better about making permanent status available to people who have shown respect for our rule of law.

    Of course, this is all ignoring how exploitable a guest worker could be — depending on how the program is set up, for example.

    Not if you read what I wrote. You may be ignoring it. I did not. I want measures to insure that we don’t exploit them and they don’t exploit us.

  56. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 3:06 pm #

    “That’s where the issue about the rule of law comes in; the attitude that the law only applies to some people.”

    Thats exactly what I’m talking about too!

  57. Comment by Ric Locke on 6/28 @ 3:13 pm #

    I think you’re just defining away the problem.

    No. I’m groping for a definition of the problem that allows a postulated mechanism for solving it. Tossing everybody into an undifferentiated stew leaves no handles to get a grip on. In particular, I strongly disagree with “…people here, who aren’t welcome, and aren’t being asked to join in our society, and are actually being forced not to join.” They are welcome as guests, not as permanent residents, and they asked for that status because they still feel permanent loyalty toward their home country. We aren’t forcing them not to join, we are accommodating their wish not to join.

    What we have is two different types of status, each clear, each advertised, each explained. They differ by the stated goals of the people involved, i.e., you ask them beforehand.

    “Do you want to become an American and a citizen? If so, we want to know if you’re honest and upright, so there will be a delay while we ask about you, and you will have to change in some ways in order to conform to our society; if you’re willing to go along with that, welcome! Glad to have you! — we can always use another pair of hands on the plow.

    “If you don’t want to become an American and a citizen, just make some money you can take back home after a while, you’re welcome, too; it’s hard work keeping a $10 trillion economy going, and we pay well for help doing it. We won’t ask you to do more than the minimum needed to get by, but you should understand that you won’t have the same privileges — voting, free movement, other things — that citizens and those applying to be Americans do.

    “If you choose to be a guest worker and change your mind later, that’s fine, too, but we’ll ask you to do a couple of things to prove your sincerity — like, go home to your origin country and apply there. If you’ve got a record here as an asset to our society it will give you a leg up, especially as regards the investigations to see if we want you, but we take applications in the order they were submitted, and you can’t jump the line because it isn’t fair to others.”

    Comes far from covering all the bases, but as a policy statement I think it’s a pretty good start.

    And I don’t think the present “guest worker” system is a good one; in fact, it’s about as bad as can be imagined without actual whips and chains being involved. As it is, to get guest worker status you have to have an invitation from a specific employer, and if you lose that employer’s goodwill you’re out on your butt. That’s not “guest employment”, it’s bond-servitude disguised in bullshit, and the companies that do it use it for exactly that, as mercilessly as anything S. Legree could have managed; it is specifically used to keep the salaries of high-tech workers low. Guest worker status should be a general empowerment that allows the guest to change employers or take a vacation without losing that status, though I would place a fairly generous time limit on it — six months, perhaps.

    Regards,
    Ric

  58. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 3:24 pm #

    “How so? It describes people who want to work here. Some may be interested in permanent status, others may not. ”

    Thats how.

    “Not if you read what I wrote. You may be ignoring it. I did not. I want measures to insure that we don’t exploit them and they don’t exploit us.”

    And I think you left some out in your description. Like at least the inherent ones that if they are only here for a limited time, or without access to our safety nets (like unemployment insurance), then they will be in a weaker position relative to their employer than the ones here permanently.

    But like I said, it sounds like you’re describing people coming here, getting visas, and then moving towards permanent status and citizenship if they want and according to regulations. That should be happening a whole lot more.

    “No. They WOULD be welcome, in their capacity as guest workers. And if, while here, they chose to pick up some English and learned to love the culture, that would make any future immigration or any kind of “earned citizenship” that much easier.”

    Right. They’re welcome here temporarily, which means not welcome permanently, and leads to balkanization. Turkish guest workers are welcome as guests in germany. But the rest of your paragraph again brings up the fact that it looks like you see a guest program as basically a path to citizenship. Which is basically plain old immigration — people come here on visas, and, after meeting certain qualifications move to permanent status. I don’t think thats the understanding of “guest/seasonal worker” programs. If so, then we’re talking about different things, and I agree that we should have more of what you are describing: ways for people to come here and become citizens.

    “Essentially, you can either have worker-safety and quality-of-life regulations, labor unions and an unemployment safety net, or you can have unrestricted immigration.”

    We don’t really have unrestricted immigration, otherwise the guy that BJtex describes wouldn’t be having problems. I suppose those immigrants could stay at home and work for very little and then their products could be imported here. Or we could have them come here and join our higher wage and more solidaritous society.

  59. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 3:29 pm #

    Thats how.

    You’re gonna have to flesh that out, shine, because that’s a completely meaningless response.

  60. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 3:30 pm #

    “They are welcome as guests, not as permanent residents, and they asked for that status because they still feel permanent loyalty toward their home country.”

    I think people will take that status because it’s what they can get, and you just defining that away doesn’t mean that it wont happen.

  61. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 3:33 pm #

    “You’re gonna have to flesh that out, shine, because that’s a completely meaningless response.”

    I said it describes both permanent and guest workers. You said:

    ““How so? It describes people who want to work here. Some may be interested in permanent status, others may not”

    So it describes both: Permanent, and guest. Other things will differentiate these people, but what you described? can count for both.

  62. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 3:35 pm #

    I think people will take that status because it’s what they can get, and you just defining that away doesn’t mean that it wont happen.

    There was another path clearly explained. Do you think people who truly want to be migrant workers, let’s say to be here for the harvesting season and return home when it’s over, should be put on a citizenship track?

    Believe it or not, some people like being Mexicans.

  63. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 3:38 pm #

    I said it describes both permanent and guest workers.

    No, you said “That describes someone who is on a path to permanent status as well. Not just someone who is here as a temporary worker.”

    I didn’t make the distinction nor address the issue in the comment you were referring to. Please pay attention to yourself, shine.

  64. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 3:48 pm #

    “Do you think people who truly want to be migrant workers, let’s say to be here for the harvesting season and return home when it’s over, should be put on a citizenship track?”

    If they truly just want to be seasonal migrants they’ll go back on their own. It doesn’t matter what options we make available to them. They’ll go back because thats what you say they truly want to do.

    “I didn’t make the distinction nor address the issue in the comment you were referring to. ”

    I know you didn’t make the distinction. That’s what I’m pointing out: your description applies to both.

  65. Comment by Pablo on 6/28 @ 4:25 pm #

    If they truly just want to be seasonal migrants they’ll go back on their own. It doesn’t matter what options we make available to them.

    It matters as to their entry into the country and their legal status while they’re here. Wouldn’t you like them to have both legal protections and responsibilities? Don’t you think we should know who’s coming into our country?

  66. Comment by R30C on 6/28 @ 5:31 pm #

    Timb has probably taken his beating and ran away with his tail between his legs for the day. But just in case, here’s an example of his distorted reality from a few days ago regarding Dick Lugar.

    Comment by timb on 6/27 @ 9:35 am #

    Wouldn’t put much stock in the right wing ramblings of you and your friends, R30C. He ran unopposed in the primary and the general. He stays as long as he wants to.

    The fact is Lugar was opposed by Steve Osborne, a Libertarian, during his last bid for re election. Timb, I love listening to people talk about things they know absolutely nothing about, please continue to entertain me, as well as the rest of us, with your perception of reality!

  67. Comment by dicentra on 6/28 @ 6:03 pm #

    I think it’s time to stop talking to shine. It’s starting to sound like that Monty Python & THG scene where they give instructions to the guards.

  68. Comment by Dewclaw on 6/28 @ 6:45 pm #

    [quote]FATHER:
    Cut that out! Cut that out! Look, you’re marrying Princess Lucky, so you’d better get used to the idea!
    [smack]
    Guards! Make sure the Prince doesn’t leave this room until I come and get him.
    GUARD #1:
    Not to leave the room even if you come and get him.
    GUARD #2:
    Hic!
    FATHER:
    No, no. Until I come and get him.
    GUARD #1:
    Until you come and get him, we’re not to enter the room.
    FATHER:
    No, no. No. You stay in the room and make sure he doesn’t leave.

    GUARD #1:
    And you’ll come and get him.
    GUARD #2:
    Hic!
    FATHER:
    Right.
    GUARD #1:
    We don’t need to do anything apart from just stop him entering the room.
    FATHER:
    No, no. Leaving the room.
    GUARD #1:
    Leaving the room. Yes.
    [sniff]
    FATHER:
    All right?
    GUARD #1:
    Right.
    GUARD #2:
    Hic!
    FATHER:
    Right. [/quote]

    Yea… that about sums up shine, heet, and the rest of the rabble. :)

  69. Comment by Great Mencken's Ghost on 6/28 @ 7:02 pm #

    Today Along the Rio Grande

  70. Pingback by NoisyRoom.net » Blog Archive » Noisy News Around the Web - 6/28/07… on 6/28 @ 7:05 pm #

    [...] Shamnesty Shocker: Senate feels the heat, beats retreat - Protein Wisdom [...]

  71. Comment by cynn on 6/28 @ 7:12 pm #

    Even I, a putative fellow traveler, am having trouble tracking shine. I am so glad this abomination is done. I raised holy hell with my congresspeople about this mess. Now what I don’t want to happen is the whole issue is dropped as too divisive and disruptive. It is divisive and should chap some well-placed asses. It needs to be so.

    Why can’t we re-tool the bracero program, maintained separately from any permanent immigration plan? It would need to be carefully monitered and administered, to prevent abuse on both sides. But what the hell else is ICE doing these days? Make that flaccid Homeland Security farce earn their keep and actually enforce laws and promote security.

  72. Comment by shine on 6/28 @ 9:34 pm #

    “It matters as to their entry into the country and their legal status while they’re here.”

    My guess is they’ll try however they can. Whether they want to be here for good or not. Thats what people seem to be doing now.

  73. Comment by Pellegri on 6/29 @ 1:22 am #

    I was going to say something witty about a game, but I figured the metaphor was tortuous and liable to get cherry-picked (”OMG pellegri wants to kill the immigrants?!?!”), so never mind.

    Good explanation of the positions on the topic to someone relatively new to the subject, though; thank you, guys.

  74. Comment by klrfz1 on 6/29 @ 1:43 am #

    The defeat of this immigration bill is far more of a defeat for the Democrats than for big business. Big business still gets all the cheap labor they want. That hasn’t changed. The Democrats just lost 12 million new voters who can’t listen to Rush Limbaugh because they don’t understand English that well. The Democrats just lost their new job as patron for all of the hispanic underclass. The Democrats just demonstrated again why the phrase “do nothing Democrats” will stay applicable for all time. Can you believe Harry Reid call General Petraeus incompetent? Unbelievable. Didn’t the Senate Majority Leader count the votes beforehand?

    I was going to note where shine befouled himself in his comments above but life’s too short. Vaya con Dios, shine.

  75. Comment by klrfz1 on 6/29 @ 2:02 am #

    Other than a minimum-wage increase and a stem cell research bill, which Bush is expected to veto, Democrats have “not been able to push through anything that touches all Americans on a daily basis,” noted one Democratic strategist.

  76. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 4:25 am #

    My guess is they’ll try however they can. Whether they want to be here for good or not. Thats what people seem to be doing now.

  77. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 4:27 am #

    Arrgh!

    My guess is they’ll try however they can. Whether they want to be here for good or not. Thats what people seem to be doing now.

    You say that like it’s a good thing. The point would be that they wouldn’t need to try “however they can”. There would be an orderly, legal process for them to enter and work.

  78. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 4:38 am #

    “The Democrats just lost 12 million new voters…”

    New legal voters. Most of them are voting now, this legislation would just make it easier for them to do so legally.

  79. Comment by shine on 6/29 @ 6:00 am #

    “There would be an orderly, legal process for them to enter and work.”

    And they’ll take whichever process works best for them.

    “New legal voters. Most of them are voting now, this legislation would just make it easier for them to do so legally.”

    Most?

  80. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 6:03 am #

    Do I need to flag sarcastic hyperbole for you, shine? What symbol would be easy for you to remember?

  81. Comment by shine on 6/29 @ 6:14 am #

    “Do I need to flag sarcastic hyperbole for you, shine? What symbol would be easy for you to remember?”

    You never know around here. So I try to make sure.

  82. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 6:14 am #

    And they’ll take whichever process works best for them.

    Are you saying that they’ll continue to do as they damned well please, and that our interests are irrelevant? Because if that’s the case, we’re gonna need much better border security to keep people who have no respect for our laws out of our country.

  83. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 6:14 am #

    And what percentage do you think is voting illegally? What would your estimate be based on?

  84. Comment by Percy Dovetonsils on 6/29 @ 7:07 am #

    Just an economic thought here - I wonder if the unskilled/low-skilled jobs that act as a magnet to illegal immigrants are going to dry up with the housing bust. Much like the Great Bandwidth Building Orgy of the Internet Bubble, the recent construction orgy has left us with a housing inventory that will take years to burn off. Don’t look for a new wave of subprime mortgages to produce a flock of buyers for these homes, either.

    I’ve never passed a house or condo under contruction in Chicago that wasn’t built using mostly or all foreign-born workers. So, less new construction, less construction jobs = less need for immigrant labor??

    Oh, and for assholes like timmah who think this is all about sticking it to the “brown man,” a lot of these workers in Chicago are Eastern European. Unless there’s a suspicious amount of light-haired, tall, Slavic-looking Mexicans in our midst.

  85. Comment by McGehee on 6/29 @ 7:13 am #

    I’ll have McGehee tell every Democratic Hispanic voter in California for you that he/she favors illegal activities.

    And I’ll tell them in Spanish:

    Los liberales creen a le y a gente como usted puede alcanzar solamente cualquier cosa en vida siendo criminales, y ése es porqué desean darle excepciones a nuestros leyes.

    Of course, I only took nine weeks of Spanish in junior-high school, so my translation of timbot’s message may be slightly different from what he wants me to say…

  86. Comment by shine on 6/29 @ 8:14 am #

    “Are you saying that they’ll continue to do as they damned well please, and that our interests are irrelevant?”

    I don’t think they’re doing as they please. I just use what people are doing now to determine what they’re likely to do in the future.

    “And what percentage do you think is voting illegally? What would your estimate be based on?”

    I don’t know how high it goes. I’ve heard of cases of some people being registered but then not being american citizens. I don’t know if they were here illegaly. But I’ve never heard of a number anywhere near “most” of 12 million.

  87. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 8:26 am #

    Hey, Percy, you’re a prick! You’re a dick! You’re a bunch of other names….

    Wow, since that happens to me all the time here, I thought it must make one feel good. But, it doesn’t. It just makes you sound like a fool (oops, did it again).

    By the way, Percy, you’re right on that enormous Hungarian immigration in Greater Chicago. In my many visits and stays in Chicago, I often wish I spoke Polish or Czech just so I could get around….Spanish? Never heard that in Chicago and, when I did, it must because of the Great Barcelona Migration.

    As for B Moe’s more coherent, but equally silly idea, how about zero percent to one percent? See, if you were illegal, you probably don’t go too many polling places, since in Indiana there are nice Republican election inspectors, who ask anyone with a Hispanic surname for ID (We’ve eliminated that problem in Indiana recently by making showing an ID a requirement to vote, so now everyone gets to show an ID! A solution to a problem that does not exist!)

    Further, as an objective (rather than anecdotal argument) you may have missed (I know it’s not an interest to PW readers) that the Attorney General of the United States is in sort of hot water for canning US attorneys who could not find or produce illegal voting cases. Simply put, according to the US 7th Circuit Appeals court (sitting in that bastion of Bulgarian culture, Chicago) there is not any significant evidence of voter fraud in the United States (it’s in the dissent of the three judge panel, which upheld the law, http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2007/01/7th-circuit-panel-upholds-indianas.html)

    In any event there are 41 MILLION Hispanic voters in this country and that number grows every year when “illegal” workers (damn them and their desire to work) have children/citizens. Those folks are going to remember who attacked them and who defended them. Hell, for old times sake, why don’t you nominate Pete Wilson for Pres. He always wanted the job.

    As for the car loving dude from the middle of Columbia City, no, I knew Mr. Osborn was running, but this isn’t Mississippi in the days of the Dixiecrats. Lugar had no oppostion from the only party that might be able to beat him, or did you miss his 87% of the vote. That ain’t too shabby. I’ll stick with unopposed, unless you want to count every fringe candidate?

    By the way, my dad lives in North Central Indiana, loves cars, and Rush and George W. He has an older Buick Skylark and I’ll bet he’d meet you in Gas City to discuss how disappointing my politics are and how cool your website is.

  88. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/29 @ 8:41 am #

    We’ve eliminated that problem in Indiana recently by making showing an ID a requirement to vote, so now everyone gets to show an ID! A solution to a problem that does not exist!

    Really? There is no voter fraud? Huh.

    “illegal” workers (damn them and their desire to work)

    Nothing against their desire to work. It’s their willingness to violate our laws that’s the problem.

  89. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 8:46 am #

    “Simply put, according to the US 7th Circuit Appeals court (sitting in that bastion of Bulgarian culture, Chicago) there is not any significant evidence of voter fraud in the United States…”

    Unbelievable.

    “I don’t know how high it goes. I’ve heard of cases of some people being registered but then not being american citizens. I don’t know if they were here illegaly.”

    If they weren’t American citizens, they can’t vote legally. The point is, because illegals are undocumented, we have no way of tracking how bad the problem might be. The fact they will use forged documents to suit any other needs they may have should lead one to believe they would have no qualms with using forged voter registration papers to earn a couple of extra bucks on election day. Everywhere but that bastion of electoral integrity, the City of Chicago, that is.

  90. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 8:49 am #

    timb - If voter fraud does not exist, then showing an ID will not keep eligible people from voting, no?

    And, the term unopposed means that there was no opposition, not that the opposition did not rise to timmah’s standards. We await your acknowledgement of your mistake.

  91. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 8:55 am #

    timmah - Since your beloved Dems Reid and Pelosi are in charge of the Senate and the House, and President Bush was going to sign this legislation, isn’t this an example of a failure of leadership by the Dems?

  92. Comment by mojo on 6/29 @ 8:58 am #

    1.) Control the border and deport the criminal illegals. THAT is the priority.
    2.) Lean on the Mexican government to stop their encouragement of illegal emigration to the US. Lean hard…

  93. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 10:48 am #

    Sometimes your lack of knowledge frightens me, B Moe. The US 7th Circuit is a FEDERAL appeals court, run by one of the most conservative justices in America, Richard B. Posner. It sits in Chicago and has nothing to do with the electoral politics of Chicago. In fact, the ruling on Indiana ID case was exactly what the Republican Party in Indiana wanted and desired and the Democratic Party opposed them.

    As to your larger sillier point of HOW BIG THE PROBLEM MIGHT BE SINCE WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE IT EXISTS, all I will say, after laughing at it, is that people like you scrutinize people like my wife very carefully to make sure “she ain’t votin’ illegal like.” I propose that, in addition, that the US government pay me 1 million dollars to discover if gnats cause heart attacks. THE PROBLEM’S HUGE BECAUSE THERE’S NO EVIDENCE!! Don’t you see how big the problem must be if no one can find it? The mind reels.

    All I was saying, and I’ll try to type more slowly for you, is that there have not been any significant cases of voter fraud in America, involving illegal aliens.

    JD, by your logic, since there is a write in section on the Indiana ballot, no one can EVER run unopposed. After all, I wrote my name in as Senator. Perhaps you didn’t hear about my campaign? Well, looks like me and Mr. Osborn have something in common…He lost by 74 points and I lost by 86. Oh, well

    As for your serious point, I listen to Hannity everyday and his excoriation of this bill, he mentioned Ted Kennedy and the President. It is not a failure of Reid, in so much as the people who melted the phone lines were Republicans and everyone knows it. The narrative’s already been written, but, if you fax your comments directly to the National Review, they will get Jonah Goldberg and Marc Levin busy crafting the revisionism as soon as they’re done cheering the bill’s demise.

    For Rob, yes, that’s what I said. The DOJ has not been able to prosecute any significant voter fraud cases (i.e. a case where an organized group of people attempted to vote and swung an election.) Do 5 minutes of reading ANYTHING about why Rove and company wanted to can those 8 Republican US attorneys and you’ll find that. Or, maybe you don’t want to.

  94. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 10:53 am #

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/28/AR2007062802491.html?nav=hcmodule

    Check out the logic of this lady, JD, and you tell me how this gonna be perceived. By the way, I don’t love Reid or Pelosi. Only Bill Richardson, Bob Kerry, Joe Biden, despite their warts. Also, I’m fond of Chuckie Schumer, mainly because he’s right so much of the time and pisses you guys off so much.

  95. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 11:05 am #

    timb - you are conflating issues. We know you are alright with illegal immigration, as well as voter fraud. Just because there have been no significant prosecutions in re. illegal immigrants fraudulently voting does not mean that voter fraud as a whole is not a problem. Why do attempts to identify voters concern you, and your party, so?

    Was there another candidate on the ballot against Lugar? If so, you were wrong, and it is alright to admit it. I have done so. If there were no other candidates on the ballot you were right.

  96. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 11:17 am #

    “The mind reels.”

    You should wait for the spinning to stop before you read and respond. Maybe then your argument would have something to do with what I actually said.

  97. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 11:21 am #

    Ignoring your last paragraph because I addressed it,

    I am not okay with voter fraud, I just don’t see it when it doesn’t exist. B Moe sees terrorists under one side of his bed and illegal Mexican voters under the other side. Where I’m from, we call that paranoia (or worse).

    As far as ID’ing voters are concerned, not all voters have id’s. It’s a small percentage of folks to be sure, but there are people (and for this I want you to imagine that the world is not all middle class) who do not have cars, who do not drive and, thus have no reason to pay $10 for a license, nor the time or foreknowledge to go to the BMV and wait in line to get the other ID. Voting, JD, is supposed to be easy. When it was hard, it was discriminatory (see poll taxes and literacy tests). The ID law smacks of literacy tests and poll taxes for anyone who remembers or who has read about Jim Crow. With that said, I got my ID on me and I’ll be voting this November. Hopefully, I’ll even be a poll inspector, so I can report back to B Moe other non-existent trends in voting akin to the MASSIVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT VOTING FRAUD THAT IS SO HUGE NO ONE HAS EVEN SEEN IT.

    Why do Republicans ALWAYS want to make it harder for people to vote, JD?

  98. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 11:27 am #

    I don’t think they’re doing as they please. I just use what people are doing now to determine what they’re likely to do in the future.

    Well, what do you call it when they’re breaking the law, shine?

  99. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 11:28 am #

    Voting is a privilege, not a right.

  100. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 11:33 am #

    In any event there are 41 MILLION Hispanic voters in this country and that number grows every year when “illegal” workers (damn them and their desire to work) have children/citizens. Those folks are going to remember who attacked them and who defended them.

    It is not a failure of Reid, in so much as the people who melted the phone lines were Republicans and everyone knows it.

    No, Timmah!, the people who melted the phone lines, those people who voiced the opinion of 80% of Americans of this bill, were successful. Those who were trying to ram it through failed.

  101. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 11:33 am #

    “If they weren’t American citizens, they can’t vote legally. The point is, because illegals are undocumented, we have no way of tracking how bad the problem might be. The fact they will use forged documents to suit any other needs they may have should lead one to believe they would have no qualms with using forged voter registration papers to earn a couple of extra bucks on election day.”

    Your inability to understand sarcasm is touching. There’s your quote: “we have no way of tracking?” “Lead one to believe?” Your argument is based on the idea that there is a problem….a problem so fundamental that immigration need to be changed, that voting laws need to be adjusted, yet, as I pointed out to you, there is no proof this problem exists and the DOJ has been looking for it (we’ll leave aside the irony of AG Gonzales and his own murky immigration history is in charge of it).

    Since all you can do is formulate “supposes” and “mights” in the face of documented fact, maybe you should drop it. You are clearly gonna believe what you will, i.e. the evil brown people will whore their votes out to the Democrats and ruin your chance to elect whatever Howard Phillips-esque right-wing wacko happens to be running on the far right fringe.

    Believe it, I could care less, but stop saying a problem might exist because there is no evidence it does.

  102. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 11:34 am #

    I haven’t seen any immigrant voting, but I have seen illegal voting. When I was a young man I was directly involved with vote buying and voter fraud for the Democrats in Appalachia. There were never any serious investigations, there were never any prosecutions, there is nothing to link to or prove it, so are you going to try to tell me it didn’t fucking exist because some pinheaded fucking anonymous web lizard named timmy has no direct evidence of it? You logic is retarded, timmy, borderline fucking autistic. Voter fraud existed then, and it exists now.

  103. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 11:34 am #

    Grrrr…

    In any event there are 41 MILLION Hispanic voters in this country and that number grows every year when “illegal” workers (damn them and their desire to work) have children/citizens. Those folks are going to remember who attacked them and who defended them.

    Who’s been attacking voters, Timmah?

  104. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 11:37 am #

    Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 11:28 am #

    Voting is a privilege, not a right.

    No, JD, it’s a right. You might want to see the US Constitution, the Indiana Constitution, the laws of the United States, etc. Driving is a privilege; voting is a right. Like all rights, in the face of compelling state interest it can be limited (your right to vote after being convicted of a felony or your right to scream “fire” in a theater are compelling state reason to limits rights).

  105. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 12:07 pm #

    timmah - you may be correct in that it is referred to as a right in the text, but not in the traditional sense of rights afforded the individual, that are inherent to the person. Were that the case, we could not limit the right to people over 18, or those that live in their precinct, or those that have properly registered. So, you were partially right, insofar as the usage of the term “right”.

  106. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 12:11 pm #

    B Moe, so you’re a felon? Do you want to run the Statute of Limitations for that crime to see if you’re free and clear?

    Your history as a person who tried to help steal elections does not prove in anyway that elections are be stolen by illegal voters today and no amount of profanity or personal corruption can change the record otherwise.

    I am less unmoved by your argument than I was before. Hell, at some level, I feel like I’m Kevin Bacon staring at Jack Nicholson at the end of “A Few Good Men”. You know, horror, surprise, and disgust….I’m supposed to take seriously the opinion of an admitted felon who, let me guess, worked for a segregationist Democratic Party in the 60’s before Nixon’s Southern Strategy took you away from the Dems and into the fringe?

    Oh, and by the way, I never said voter fraud did not exist; I said (and backed it up) that significant voter fraud does not exist.

    Admitting felonies to buttress an argument? Unheard of.

  107. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 12:18 pm #

    Well, I’ll inform the US Congress and the Warren Court that the 1965 Voting Rights Act should have been called the Voting Privileges Act.

    In essence you’re wrong: A direct quote from the 15th Amendment to the US Constitution:

    “Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.”

    However, JD, semantics (important semantics) aside, correct me if I’m wrong, but what you meant by that was that government can provide reasonable restrictions on voting. the answer to that is what I said above. Voting, as I learned in class, is a fundamental right and any restriction therein requires strict scrutiny of the compelling State interest in restricting it. So, to have a fair election registered voters get one vote in their precinct. There is a compelling state interest in ensuring fair elections.

    So, where I continue to differ with you on your understanding of the word “right”, I think I understand and, mostly, agree with your point: Voting is not a free for all.

  108. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 12:23 pm #

    I worked for Jay Rockefeller, and how dare you call me a felon. If the crime wasn’t prosecuted it didn’t exist. I have joined forces with OJ in looking for the real culprit, if it will help set your mind at ease. I have also petitioned the Oxford Dictionary that “hasn’t been proven to timmy’s satisfaction” is now an acceptable definition for significant.

  109. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 1:13 pm #

    Hell, I’ve been petitioning for that change for years. I’m glad you read through that and noticed it was mostly faux outrage. I know you’re unlikely to take advice from me, but Robert Caro’s book Mean of Ascent traces how LBJ stole a Senate election in Texas. Read it or listen to the audio book. It’s a great telling of a story about that election.

  110. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 1:30 pm #

    timmah - Do you understand that applying a standard of no significant prosecutions to prove that some crime does not exist is ridiculous ?

  111. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 1:42 pm #

    No, I do not. If there is no evidence a crime exists, A FREAKIN’ FELONY, JD, not speeding, then how can you maintain it exists. Name another unprosecuted, commonplace felony. > that’s what I thought.

  112. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 1:50 pm #

    I have no proof of its existence, anymore than you have proof of its non-existence. It is a natural progression to think that if groups like ACORN are fraudulently registering people, or paying them crack for their registration, that the same groups, or similarly situated groups, are taking the next step and acting on those registrations. If a fraudulently registered person votes, that would constitute a felony. I would be perfectly fine with confirming the identity of every last voter on the voter rolls, and actually proving one’s identity is a reasonable, non-intrusive way of doing so. I realize that people may not drive. But they do purchase beer, cigarettes, lottery tickets, have bank accounts, cash checks, etc … all of which require proof of identification. Why should voting be easier than cashing a check?

  113. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 2:13 pm #

    “Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.”

    How about other reasons?

  114. Comment by McGehee on 6/29 @ 2:16 pm #

    If there is no evidence a crime exists

    There’s your trouble right there: you’re assuming that every time a crime isn’t prosecuted, it’s because there’s not enough evidence to prosecute. In short, you’re arguing that there is no other piossible reason why the crime, though existing, might not be prosecuted. Political reasons, for example, or because it isn’t reported to the authorities.

    I’ll bet you think Al Capone’s only crime was tax evasion, since that’s the only thing he was ever convicted of.

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  116. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 4:08 pm #

    Name another unprosecuted, commonplace felony.

    Tax evasion, filing false documents, and forgery. Are you going to try to argue that illegal aliens aren’t breaking these laws?

  117. Comment by timb on 6/29 @ 4:37 pm #

    Except of course, those crimes are prosecuted quite commonly, which furthers my argument that, if there were illegals voting, for instance, in the same manner of illegals working, someone would have prosecuted someone else for something.

    Hey, Pablo, are you joining JD and saying voting is not a right. The discussion was rather voting was a right or a privilege. I was showing JD that it is a right and not a privilege.

  118. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/29 @ 4:51 pm #

    If there is no evidence a crime exists, A FREAKIN’ FELONY, JD, not speeding, then how can you maintain it exists.

    But there is evidence. Look to Washington state. Or the odd pattern of fraudulent registrations that follows ACORN’s activities around the country. Lack of convictions doesn’t mean lack of evidence.

  119. Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/29 @ 4:52 pm #

    Except of course, those crimes are prosecuted quite commonly,

    In proportion to the frequency with which they’re committed? You’re telling me that there are millions of illegals prosecuted for the fraud they commit?

  120. Comment by B Moe on 6/29 @ 5:12 pm #

    Aliens? What illegal aliens? If they are illegal, why aren’t they being prosecuted? You are all daft! Daft, I say!

  121. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 8:00 pm #

    Name another unprosecuted, commonplace felony.

    Perjury. Unless, of course, you’re a Rethuglican.

  122. Comment by Pablo on 6/29 @ 8:09 pm #

    Hey, Pablo, are you joining JD and saying voting is not a right.

    Tell you what, Timmah! You answer my question, and I’ll answer yours.

  123. Comment by R30C on 6/29 @ 8:40 pm #

    Timb, check your facts, Osborne took approximately 1/3 that doesn’t leave 87% for Lugar, it only leaves approx. 67% which I am willing to write off as a typo or ramifications of dyslexia on your part, but the difference between a margin of 17% and 37% make a huge difference as to how the outcome of a local election could change.
    Also Timb, I do appreciate the comment about our site, thank you. If your father goes to the “duck tail run” at Gas City have him look for those of us who have the R30C logo on our shirts, As you’ve seen I’d rather spend the band width on pics than words, I’d be happy to show his car on the site, maybe even give it a few words if it stands out.

  124. Comment by cynn on 6/29 @ 9:01 pm #

    mojo, for whatever it’s worth at this point, I agree with you 1000% percent.

  125. Comment by cynn on 6/29 @ 9:09 pm #

    Oh, and mojo: just wanted to pay you a compliment. I pay attention to what you say. This place can be a cross between roller derby and Videodrome. Nice to come across a measured, if not moderate, voice.

  126. Comment by R30C on 6/29 @ 9:25 pm #

    Also Timb… you might want to refrain from making statements like this “As for the car loving dude from the middle of Columbia City” if you have no clue as to the size of the burg, being in the middle of Columbia City and on the outskirts (suburbs for you) amounts to 3/4 mile as the crow flies. I happen to live in South Whitley, a little jaunt away from CC and a bit of a challenge to find on your mothers Walmart road atlas.

  127. Comment by JD on 6/29 @ 9:58 pm #

    I have had the pleasure of going to South Whitley. There is a diner on the southern part of town that serves a killer brekafast.

  128. Comment by Pablo on 6/30 @ 2:53 pm #

    This place can be a cross between roller derby and Videodrome.

    Don’t forget part brothel, part martini lounge and part crack house.

  129. Comment by timb on 7/2 @ 11:03 am #

    http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/mtp-todd-florida.jpg

    58-21? Oops. Once more correct. It hurts my foot so much to kick this much PW ass.

    Or, try this one: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-06-27-hispanics-dems-cover_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
    ELEVEN PERCENT!!!!!! Wow. Go Tom Tancredo, go

    R30C, here’s the link. It’s an old topic, so I might not see you, but, if you read it and want to say “My bad, it was 87%”, then I will glad to accept that.

    According to my dad, he has driven his car a whole 25 miles this year, so apparently traveling in it is not his thing. Given, and I bet you know about this (if not, I meant it as a compliment, I can’t wait for my kids to get the hell out and give me the pleasure of grand-children), his 9 grand-children keep him plenty busy! All of them are under the age of 12, so they can grow into interest.

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