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“How Best to Secede from a State”

As I noted the other day, I took great joy in voting to distance myself from the donut hole — Denver / Boulder, mostly — that runs Colorado, and does so in ways that those in the surrounding areas despise and have taken to simply disregarding: people giggle at the hopeless rubes making this charge at new statehood, but the truth is, we know it isn’t going to happen. We are making a statement — loudly and in public — that matches statements we’ve made here on the local level through various actions: in my area of Weld County, for instance, our Rep and our State Senator, along with our Sheriff, came out and said, explicitly, that they have no plans to prosecute anyone under the Bloomberg-led gun control laws, passed without any GOP votes (and only 1 or 2 Dem defections) that ended with 2 recall elections (the first in CO history). Even more brazenly, they took to the Chamber floor and said, in the open, that they didn’t plan to follow the laws, either.

And that’s been the state of affairs here. Where the rift between Hickenlooper’s arrogant, wannabe-cosmopolitanism and practical, small government activism, is growing more and more by the day.

The truth is, until we’re overrun by those who try to remove our state reps and impose upon us laws that diminish our natural rights to self-protection and private property, we know we’re not going anywhere. But if and when that time comes, many of us have talked about how best to proceed with our escape from liberal nannystatism and pc tyranny — a strategy outlined nicely here, by Eugene Kontorovich:

Some spirit of secession has spread across the land, with various areas in Maryland, Colorado, Texas, California and elsewhere discussing seceding from their states, because of political alienation arising from significant differences in values and preferences. I don’t take the political prospects of American secession movements too seriously, and assume their principal purpose is to gain leverage for their preferred policies within their state governments.

These secessionists have an advantage over those seeking outright separation from the Union – and a big disadvantage. On one hand, they don’t have to deal with the Confederacy/slavery baggage that tends to confound discussions of secession in the U.S. On the other hand, the Constitution, Art. IV, sec. 3 clearly forbids the creating a new state in the territory of an existing one without the latter’s consent, and the consent of Congress. That is a high bar, practically insurmountable.

But there may be an easier way for those who seek to secede from their state – instead of creating a new “51st” state, secede to join an existing state. The Constitution’s requirement of home-state and congressional consent only clearly applies to the creation of a “new state”:

… no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The language of the provision is a bit unclear. Does the second clause above (“nor any State be formed”) refer back to, and continue the discussion, of “new states”? That would mean that the provision does not govern the transfer of territory from one state to another. The interpretation probably depends on what it means for a state to be “formed.” Does it refer to the creation of states, or the changing of their borders (forms)? If western Maryland secedes to join West Virginia, would one say West Virginia has been “formed” by the merger of West Virginia and parts of Maryland? I would say “West Virginia” has already been formed, and changes to its boundaries – even at the expense of other states – do not clearly fall within Art. IV, sec. 3. […]

[…]

There are sound structural reasons for having lower barriers to interstate seccesion that the creation of a new state, and in particular for not requiring congressional consent for the former. A new state is a new sovereign, with a full set of sovereign privileges; the number of such actors is a matter of national interest. Perhaps more importantly, a new state significantly changes the balance of electoral power because of the voting preference given to states-qua-states, especially in the Senate, but for very small states, also in the House. Thus a new state dilutes existing State’s voting power. The mere transfer of territory and population from one state to another does not have this effect.

Of course, the secessionist sections of Maryland are part of the sovereign territory of Maryland, and it is not clear why even the overwhelming wishes of the population there to “switch” to West Virginia should be able to change this. In this way, state-level secession stands on a weaker footing than federal secession, because the subdivisions of states are not themselves sovereign actors.

Bearing in mind these obstacles, the state secessionists’ best bet would be to have some local referendum or Convention that would overwhelmingly favor joining another state. Then the receiving state would sue in the Supreme Court’s original jurisdiction. The interstate disputes jurisdiction extends to all kinds of disputes. The receiving state would have to argue that general principles of republicanism and democracy militate for people who have overwhelmingly (say 75%) expressed their desire to join another state should be allowed to do so. There is no clear law to apply to such questions – interstate disputes are governed by federal common law – and Rhode Island v. Massachusetts suggests that what might otherwise be a political question may not be when brought as an original jurisdiction interstate dispute. Ruling in favor of the secessionists would require a decision based on general and subjective notions of democracy, and would allow the Court to constitutionalize its theory of political justice, but that is nothing new.

Of course, the “receiving state” would have to agree to its enlargement, but presumably that would be an easy sell. Incidentally, it is not clear that such “switch secession” would require hooking up with a territorially neighboring state. There is no requirement that states be continuous, as Michigan’s northern peninsula demonstrates. Indeed, Massachusetts was separated by New Hampshire from its northern provinces until the creation of the State of Main in 1820. So potential secessionists could go “on the market” to find the best potential state to unify with, though presumably proximity would bring practical conveniences.

To our north is Wyoming.  We also to our south have the four corners, where Colorado meets New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah — several of which are already conservative states troubled only by the influx of illegals who have the potential to swing elections (and in fact, this has been the Democrat’s logistical playbook).

And then there’s always Texas — which while not contiguous — may just one day like having as part of its state a mountainous outpost filled with those who are largely self-sufficient and who cling to their guns and their religion when they’re being told they need to forget all that garbage and just embrace the new normal.

Why Texas might want that I can’t say for certain.  But then, new and fresh ideas tend to spring up when opportunity allows them room to grow.

(h/t Philip C)

 

255 Replies to ““How Best to Secede from a State””

  1. Shermlaw says:

    The problem with the mountain states, which were heretofore bastions of independence and personal autonomy, is that they wind up attracting the exact opposite sort of carpetbaggers who wish to create Manhattan or Mill Valley on the South Platte. They come for the scenery and low taxes and proceed to trash the place. I’m not sure what the solution is, but the problem exists.

  2. hellomynameissteve says:

    Even more brazenly, they took to the Chamber floor and said, in the open, that they didn’t plan to follow the laws, either.

    Why that’s like the DOJ not defending DOMA.

  3. leigh says:

    You wait them out for a year or two of impassable blizzards.

  4. bgbear says:

    I am not saying California is innocent of creating these leftist-statists exports, I just like to point out that California did not start the practice, it was just one of the earliest victims.

  5. leigh says:

    Hey steve. There are a bunch of unanswered questions for you waiting on the other thread.

    Chop chop, bud.

  6. leigh says:

    I just like to point out that California did not start the practice, it was just one of the earliest victims.

    California was home to rugged pioneers. Its temperate climate softened up the ensuing generations and ruination was upon the Golden State.

    I’m sad to report that my leftie brother in Austin is returning to California in the New Year. Sorry bgbear.

  7. bgbear says:

    No doubt cold weather is needed to make sure people are truly industrious. You have to work much harder to keep from freezing to death than the guy laying back in the hammock during a Florida November.

    I think that is why Europeans and Northern Chinese advanced further than people living in tropical locations. Of course, too far North and you spend too much time trying to keep from freezing to death.

  8. Blake says:

    I wonder if Nevada or Arizona would be interested in the farming and oil of the CA Central Valley?

  9. Blake says:

    It appears no one has signed up for O!care in Oregon. Didn’t we have some fool talking up the Oregon O!care web site and available plans in the last few days?

    http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/10/25/oregon-aca-exchange-still-0-for-october/

    And because our incredibly stupid lefty won’t like the Hot Air link, there’s this:

    http://www.kmtr.com/news/local/Cover-Oregon–228824221.html

  10. bgbear says:

    Nevada need to isolate Las Vegas first otherwise you keep getting Harry Reids.

  11. leigh says:

    I linked the article about no Oreganos signing up on the other thread that steveo is ignoring.

  12. Blake says:

    leigh, I think our latest stupid lefty is running away, so, thought it best to slapping the fool around.

  13. Blake says:

    *to keep slapping

  14. leigh says:

    He can run but he can’t hide, Blake.

  15. McGehee says:

    Why not do a kind of overlay thing, like they’ve been doing for area codes? Progfascist types in the blue counties of a state can have their own state government whose jurisdiction and taxing authority extends only to those counties; the remaining counties can have their own state government whose jurisdiction and taxing authority covers them.

    The blue-county state governments can be part of a blue federal government having authority only over the blues, and so on.

    Dicentra, you might actually want to move to Tooele if this comes to pass…

  16. Y’all are welcome to join us, after all, approx. 1/6 of Colorado was originally a part of Texas.

    See the Republic of Texas map:

    http://www.drtinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Texas1836map.jpg

    Why don’t y’all just join us when we secede.

    I think we should extend invitations to New Mexico and Oklahoma as well.

  17. dicentra says:

    but the truth is, we know it isn’t going to happen

    Not in the near future, anyway.

    Took 28 tries to persuade the British parliament to stop the slave trade. During the first 27 tries, there was No Way it was going to work.

    Also, there’s this tactic:

    Teen Son: Dad, can I get my tongue pierced?

    Dad: WTF?%?$?#

    Teen: Ok, ok! How about a brow piercing?

    Dad: WOT?%?$?#

    Teen: Nose ring?

    Dad: Are you nutz?

    Teen: My EARLOBE, what about One. Earlobe?

    Dad: Yes, fine, whatever.

    And the lobe was the what the teen wanted in the first place.

  18. leigh says:

    We Sooners re onboard with secession, Conan. We’ve been passing stealth legislation round the clock for years exempting us from all kinds of federal stuff.

  19. hellomynameissteve says:

    Blake, help me interpret what you’re positing. Are you saying:

    Zero Oregonians have purchased ACA compliant individual plans in Oregon. Because if that’s what you’re saying, then you’re wrong.

    Zero Oregonians have purchased individual coverage *through the coveroregon.com site*, then you’re right. It’s a busted Web site. You can’t enroll through it. You can find plans and what your premiums will be and then enroll directly through the insurers. Believe it or not, insurers have been processing applications for decades. They’re good at it.

    More interestingly, are you saying that people not being able to enroll is a problem that you are genuinely concerned about? If so, settle down. There’s lots of time left and lots of ways to enroll. But color me skeptical about you being honestly concerned.

    If you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole.

    So what are you really saying? ?

  20. dicentra says:

    the exact opposite sort of carpetbaggers who wish to create Manhattan or Mill Valley on the South Platte.

    Levin calls them “locusts.”

  21. Drumwaster says:

    If you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole.

    You’re admitting that the ObamaCare legislation, and the resultant confusion, is causing difficulty for your fellow citizens, and yet you continue to defend it at every opportunity, even though you KNOW that they are suffering because of it, and you call US the assholes? Sell it someplace else, reality isn’t buying.

  22. dicentra says:

    Also, northern Colorado would prolly be happier with Wyoming than Utah, the sensibilities of the Mormon majority along the Wasatch front not being exactly identical.

    But the part of Colorado west of the Rockies would fit in with Utah just fine. We’ll gladly take the USAF Academy and its environs.

  23. bgbear says:

    Not bad McGehee.

    How about at 18 they ask you if you want to be a serf or a free man with all the right, responsibilities, privileges, and immunities appertaining thereunto.” The key is that one group can’t have access to any of the GNP of the other group.

    If you change your mind, you’ll have to prove yourself worthy of the new group. Shouldn’t be too hard in one direction.

  24. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum, I have no idea what you actually think. You seem to take whatever side furthers argument. Do you want Obamacare implemented or repealed? Let’s start with something simple and work out from there.

  25. dicentra says:

    Dicentra, you might actually want to move to Tooele if this comes to pass…

    Governmental overlays?

    Heh.

    Maybe we can just redraw the county lines so that the east benches of of SL county are part of Summit county, along with Park City. That neatly separates out the affinities without anyone having to move.

    As for the lefty haven of Moab, Grand county, there aren’t any other peeps living out there except coyotes, who are naturally delusional anyway, so they fit right in.

  26. hellomynameissteve says:

    McGhee, dicentra – You’d find no objection from my side if you want to take all the red counties and form a Republicanistan. Most of the high GDP stuff is blue.

  27. bgbear says:

    Yeah, and big deal if you starve to death Steve.

  28. Shermlaw says:

    Hey, Steve. Here’s another simple question. When we were told we could keep insurance and doctors we liked and save $2500 per year, were the people making those promises incredible imbeciles or were they lying through their teeth?

  29. Drumwaster says:

    Do you want Obamacare implemented or repealed?

    Repeal is impossible until enough lawmakers realize exactly how fucked up things are, just like with Prohibition. So I am all for implementing it EXACTLY AS THE LAW IS WRITTEN. The faster it collapses under its own weight, the faster people will realize that the government is the problem, not the solution. Not YOU, of course, but rational folk.

    Funny thing, though, not even Obama wants his signature legislation implemented as written. He simply ignored the Constitution, and rewrote the law to benefit his friends and political donors. So are you going to defend his violation of his oath of office and the separation of powers, or shall we just presume that you are going to ignore his ongoing tyranny?

    You have already ostriched yourself over the millions that have already lost the policy that Obama swore up and down that they would get to keep… just another promise broken, but he’ll keep the next one, SWEARSIESCROSSMYHEART.

  30. Blake says:

    sherm, don’t expect a coherent answer from our resident pro-slavery jackass.

  31. newrouter says:

    Most of the municipal/state economic basketcaseshigh GDP stuff is blue.

  32. newrouter says:
  33. Drumwaster says:

    Most of the high GDP stuff is blue.

    Most of the low GDP stuff is the food. Hope the blue areas don’t mind Soylent Green, because money isn’t very nutritious.

  34. Blake says:

    high gdp stuff is blue….hahahahaha….food, energy and raw materials tend to be in red areas. Wonder just how the blue areas are going to pay for the food, energy and raw materials?

  35. bgbear says:

    Many people don’t seem to understand that wealth generation only comes from the ground (farming, mining etc), the field (hunting, fishing etc), or the factory (human skill adding value to raw material from other two). Everything else is just attracting or moving wealth around (or stealing).

  36. Drumwaster says:

    And all those red areas tend to be cranky old coots with lots of practice at the three S’s

    Shoot
    Shovel
    Shut up

  37. McGehee says:

    McGhee, dicentra – You’d find no objection from my side if you want to take all the red counties and form a Republic

    FTFY.

  38. leigh says:

    Watch one of our favorite lefties Amanda Marcotte lose her mind on Twitter.

  39. dicentra says:

    Whose article is Levin reading right now?

  40. sdferr says:

    I thunk he said Daniel Horowitz (at SurrenderNews, somewhere): he’ll link it sooner or later.

  41. sdferr says:

    di, here ya go.

  42. newrouter says:

    listening to levin reminds of this

    The Permanent Bipartisan Fusion Party Prepares for War

  43. Darleen says:

    leigh

    As if Mandy ever had one to begin with. She was yelping earlier today about “The Lord Jesus Christ the Woman-Hater” becuz business owners shouldn’t have the right to not pay for abortifacients for their employees or something.

  44. Diana says:

    You’ve gotta love doughnut holes … https://proteinwisdom.com/?p=9563

  45. Mueller says:

    If you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole. – See more at: https://proteinwisdom.com/?p=51712#comments

    So what I’m getting,Steve is that your celebrating the fact that your fellow americans are being forced to participate in a government insurance scam against their will. Which makes you an asshole.
    Not to mention a fascist.
    Not to mention not very economically conversant.

  46. dicentra says:

    Thanks, sdferr. That guy is totally right. More republicans doesn’t mean jack when they essentially caucus with the dems.

  47. Ernst Schreiber says:

    The problem with the mountain states, which were heretofore bastions of independence and personal autonomy, is that they wind up attracting the exact opposite sort of carpetbaggers who wish to create Manhattan or Mill Valley on the South Platte. They come for the scenery and low taxes and proceed to trash the place. I’m not sure what the solution is, but the problem exists.

    The solution is straightforward: long residency requirements before newcomers can vote in State elections.

    Straightforward, not easy.

  48. leigh says:

    Cripes. I have been having a nearly identical argument with my priest on FB. He’s throwing around the “law of the land!” argument. I told him if that were the case, then it needs to be enforced equitably with no carve-outs. He told me to “prove” that there had been carve-outs. I handed him a bucket o’ facts and got *crickets*. Maybe I should have saved the fascism argument for next time?

    *sigh* It’s tough being an anti-fascist.

  49. Drumwaster says:

    He’s throwing around the “law of the land!” argument.

    See also “Federal DOMA”, “Brown v Board of Education”, “Prohibition”.

    Those were all “Laws of the Land”, too.

    Until they weren’t.

  50. leigh says:

    I used the Volstead Act since it had its own amendment and all. I thought better of using the Fugitive Slave Act, though. No need for overkill.

  51. BigBangHunter says:

    So what are you really saying? ?

    – At this point Steve-dolt if you have to ask you’re too stupid to talk too.

    – 34 states have decided the only thing you seem to understand is “go fuck yourself”.

    – Typical airhead Progressive gets a wakeup call.

    – You know its getting to the point where its downright astonishing, the lengths the Lefties will go to ignore the truth about all the failed promises and lies Bumblefuck scammed the Progressives with, and is still scamming them with to this day.

    – I’m not sure which is worse, they’re fecklessness in believing the Deciever-in-chief, or his pathological lying.

  52. leigh says:

    BBH, Hubs and I were discussing where this would all end while we were drinking our after dinner coffee. I predicted the demise of the Progressive wing of the democrat party, mainly because they have pushed way too much on us, way too fast and with too much force.

    The liars have tangled themselves in their web of lies and are trapped there with nowhere to go.

  53. McGehee says:

    He’s throwing around the “law of the land!” argument.

    Yeah, I saw that and immediately thought of Dred Scott. But your priest probably wouldn’t know Roger Taney from Roger Moore.

  54. dicentra says:

    Repeal is impossible until enough lawmakers realize care exactly how fucked up things are,

    FTFY.

    They don’t have to eat this dogfood. They’ll withdraw it only when their legs get bit.

  55. leigh says:

    The think that makes me crazy McGehee, is that he was a lawyer. Though perhaps not a very good one.

  56. dicentra says:

    A couple months ago, someone on Twitter insisted that the best reason to support Obamacare is that so many people go bankrupt from their medical bills.

    Well, OK then:

    How many people get laid off because of Ocare, which pushes them off whatever insurance they had? What about the medical costs they incur between then and 2014? (A broken pelvis from a car accident is NOT a pre-existing condition that would be paid for.)

    How many people will have to move to a smaller house (if they can find one) because their insurance premiums have skyrocketed?

    How many people will have so little take-home pay after the premiums that their kids get nothing but hot dogs and ramen noodles? How many get no new shoes or winter coats?

    How many of those people paying those high premiums will not need anywhere near that level of coverage?

    OH BUT THE SUBSIDIES!

    Which come from the high premiums paid by those who can “afford” it, they being effectively dropped down a notch in their economic brackets.

    Thus proving that redistribution of wealth is actually redistribution of poverty.

    Because self-flattery.

  57. dicentra says:

    Mandy was demanding screenshots of the raised premiums; this morning, @glennbeck asked people to post just such info to #insurancecancelled

    Tons and tons of evidence, but she’ll never back down, because those fools had substandard insurance, dontchaknow, and the gubmint is doing them a solid FAVOR.

  58. BigBangHunter says:

    Thus proving that redistribution of wealth is actually redistribution of poverty.

    – Medical science will eventually discover problems understanding math/economics is hereditary in Progressives.

    – Also its easier to pretend and lie through your teeth when you think you’re going to score some free shit.

  59. leigh says:

    She is stunningly stupid. Which isn’t a newsflash of course.

  60. BigBangHunter says:

    – Amanda should have stuck to ass fucking, something she could handle.

  61. BigBangHunter says:

    – Ok, whats with the added 1._______________________ between posts?

  62. SBP says:

    “food, energy and raw materials tend to be in red areas.”

    Very much so, even in nominally “blue” states.

    Let’s see: the blue areas stop sending the red areas soon-to-be-worthless pieces of green paper (or the electronic equivalent thereof), and the red areas stop sending the blue areas food, energy, and raw materials.

    Where do you suppose trouble will develop first?

  63. BigBangHunter says:

    – Of course they’re going to be raving mad when they find out their only way of getting votes is in danger.

  64. Jeff G. says:

    If you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole.

    Um, we told them they’d have this problem. We told them this wasn’t about health insurance. We told them that it would be giant clusterfuck, that doctors would leave the system, that less people would wind up with quality health care, and that there are no magic unicorns or Light Bringers who heal the rising oceans with a resonant voice projected over a loudspeaker that reads platitudes off of a teleprompter.

    You, on the other hand, sold this thing. Then your masters shut down the government to have it just like this.

    Your attempts to try to play the outrage card for our lack of compassion is amusing.

    Oh, and by the way: my Senators and rep said the law couldn’t be enforced and so they weren’t going to follow it. This remains true. They also said this before the laws passed. Not after pretending they were for it before they needed Hollywood money flowing their way.

    You fucking fascist toad.

  65. BigBangHunter says:

    “I don’t want to hear the same old stuff about how America can’t afford to invest in the things that have always made us strong. Don’t tell me we can afford to shut down the government, which cost our government billions of dollars, but we can’t afford to invest in our education system,” he said in a speech.

    …..and especially don’t bother him with the fact that this “photo op” joy ride probably cost the american tax payer 2 or 3 hundred thousand, chump change in Bumblefucks idea of things.

    – BTW, what with hair plugs suddenly apperaing back in public, Hildebeast must be getting the feeling that his Wanceness is backing the great dumberhead for 2016. After all, the whole deal with sec of state was payback for dropping out in 2007, not because the Obummer and Clintonesta’s trust or like one another. The only reason shes not spilling the beans on Benghazi is that the gestoppo has her implimented so deeply she’ll cook her own goose if she talks.

    – Theres three+ years to go, maybe the truth will float to the surface before the elections.

  66. newrouter says:

    you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole.

    well 16,000,ooo peeps tonight have no “health care” because of your and yours proggtardism. eff you waterboy for the fascism.

  67. BigBangHunter says:

    Link.

  68. happyfeet says:

    To our north is Wyoming, but beware. Winter haunts this state like a malevolent and icy poltergeist.

    This is why Badger and Elk, every year you see them sporting thicker winter coats than last. It is a forbidding land, and small cars of Japanese origin are right to fear it.

    Put not thy hope in Wyoming. Frost and despair are her handmaidens.

  69. BigBangHunter says:

    – So then because its a website designed by Progressives, should we be surprized if its schitzoid?

  70. hellomynameissteve says:

    Red states need to sell food, blue states need to buy it. And the problem is?

  71. palaeomerus says:

    I figure if Texas really wanted those New Mexico and Colorado bite we would have found a way to keep them when entering the US only to leave a few decades later..

  72. Drumwaster says:

    Red States don’t NEED to sell food, moron, they can just let it rot rather than feed the leeches.

    Welcome to “what’s mine is mine and fuck you next question”.

  73. palaeomerus says:

    I think Texas might be looking for some way to get rid of cold windy plains places like Amarillo sometimes…

  74. newrouter says:

    Red states need to sell food, blue states need to buy it. And the problem is?

    red states eat the food, blue states eat fed reserve notes

  75. palaeomerus says:

    Brett Bayer is doing a special on Krauthammer right now. I am less and less impressed with the man the more I learn of him.

  76. newrouter says:

    what you don’t like mondale speech writers? then labor lawyers at wapo are you. maybe some petey for w spice.

  77. rnabs says:

    What state is immune or has truly shown it will fight the federal apparatus? None. I’ve got a little slice of heaven on earth in northern Argentina called Cafayete that is awaiting me. There is no material difference between the two parties here in the US of A, so why bother. People are stupid, fat and lazy on both sides and want to be taken care of. Now onto better and less horrific things. I’m buying my first shot gun. I’ve always been a fan of the simple Mossberg 500 12 guage shotgun, but with a couple of girls and apetite wife, the 20 guage is starting to look more like an option. Any of you brighter than normal shooters have an educated opinion on whether buying a 20 guage over a 12 guage would be a bad or good option? Thanks in advance. Already have a couple of 45s and a Ruger AR-15 type. A shot gun would complete my first set of personal armament.

  78. Blake says:

    What, pray tell, do the blue areas have that is of value to the red areas? Are the blue states going to trade their welfare cases? Crime? Overbearing regulations?

  79. Drumwaster says:

    They will have lots of need, but they won’t have a speck of recognition of the fact that “Needs are not always mutual”.

  80. leigh says:

    You better make sure you can own firearms in Argentina, let alone bring them with you before you start packing, rnabs.

  81. Blake says:

    rnabs, the AR platform in 556 should be good for the petite wife. From what I understand, the recoil of the 556 cartridge in the AR is very manageable. If the 556 in the AR is too much, then look to a 22 LR or 22 WMR. My wife likes shooting 22 WMR and she cannot tolerate recoil at all. I personally like the 22 WMR because it packs more punch than 22 LR in a case that is slightly longer than 22 LR.

    I’ve been told that a light 20 gauge can kick as much as regular 12 gauge. So, smaller gauge does not necessarily translate into less recoil.

  82. rnabs says:

    Leigh, that “logistical” hoop has been crossed already. Thanks for your input, though. The Argentinian government is far more “less” concerned when an American is bringing his/her own “personal” protective measures than the stasi that is our own.

  83. leigh says:

    That’s good to know. It’d suck to have all your arms confiscated.

  84. newrouter says:


    1 day ago
    Who’s that on the Hill?
    politicalmugshot
    Posted by
    CNN Political Unit

    Washington (CNN) – Roger Daltrey, that’s who.

    The marble halls of Congress will become a concert venue of sorts next week as Daltrey – lead singer of the legendary British rock bank The Who – performs at a ceremony honoring Winston Churchill.

    Daltrey will be on hand for an October 30 dedication of a bust of Britain’s World War II leader in the Capitol’s Statuary Hall, according to a release from Speaker John Boehner’s office.
    link

  85. rnabs says:

    Thanks, Blake. To be honest the only thing I know about the 20 gauge is what I have seen on the internet. I have shot, and so has my wife a 12 gauge. The 12 gauge was really brutal for her. I like to have options for both home defense and for life defense, so I thought I should get a shot gun. I think the smart thing is to go to the range and shoot the 20 gauge, with the wife and see how it feels. I like the 22 LR S&W 15/22. It’s a fun plinker and if you group it well, it’s a killer. Thanks for the advice. I came to this here joint years ago for the intentionalism and the scotch and have lurked for other knowledge as well.

  86. Blake says:

    rnabs, check out Hickok45. AR versus double barrel shotgun.

    Hickok45 is probably one of the top gun guys on youtube.

  87. rnabs says:

    Yep, seen a ton of his videos. He’s been a fountain of knowledge for me. Thanks again, blake.

  88. newrouter says:

    havel @ page 49

    In societies under the post-totalitarian system, all political life in the
    ditional sense has been eliminated. People have no opportunity
    o express themselves politically in public, let alone to organize
    litically. The gap that results is filled by ideological ritual. In such
    a situation, people’s interest in political matters naturally dwindles
    and independent political thought, in so far as it exists at all, is seen
    y the majority as unrealistic, far-fetched, a kind of self-indulgent
    arne, hopelessly distant from their everyday concerns; something
    admirable, perhaps, but quite pointless, because it is on the one
    hand entirely utopian and on the other hand extraordinarily
    dangerous, in view of the unusual vigour with which any move in
    hat direction is persecuted by the regime.
    Yet even in such societies, individuals and groups of people exist
    ho do not abandon politics as a vocation and who, in one way or
    another, strive to think independently, to express themselves and in
    some cases even to organize politically, because that is a part of their
    attempt to live within the truth.

  89. hellomynameissteve says:

    If you think red state farmers would just let 75% of their crops rot rather than sell them on a market, then I guess you don’t know many farmers. They could do that right now, in fact.

    International commerce doesn’t generally work off a straight barter. Hard to imagine how blue states have higher GDP doing nothing of value. Let’s see, there’s the whole software industry, financial services, lumber, they might want to buy an airplane if they have airlines, otherwise, the yankees will be providing air travel. There is actually a lot of food grown in blue states. There’s this fish called salmon that some people like, and lobster. They might want to take in a movie, or a TV show, or listen to music (if it’s not outlawed). Netflix is kinda popular. Those red states might shop off the Amazon. There’s certain building materials that tend to be produced in blue states. Some people like an “american” car. They might want to take medicine. I could go on and on.

    The point is, there’s more value created in blue states than red states. GDP is a measure of that.

    As to all these people “losing” insurance. Let’s just see how many people are insured come March 31s of 2014 compared with March 31st of 2013.

    Blake, for the record, red states have higher crime rates, higher teen birth rates, lower life expectancies, higher infant mortality, fewer college graduates, more obesity, more chronic health problems, higher poverty rates, higher divorce rates, etc

    Seriously, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. And red states are net “takers” when it comes to taxes. Hopefully that dependency on federal handouts doesn’t run too deep.

  90. newrouter says:

    Even in the worst of times, they
    was severely harassed by the police, subjected to lengthy interrogations, and literally
    hounded by the police to his hospital death bed. The quotation above is taken
    from his final public statement, translated as ‘Political testament’, Telos, 31 (spring
    1977), pp. 151-2.

    Police State: Feds Raid Investigative Reporter @AudreyHudson, Seize Notes

  91. Blake says:

    rnabs, I forgot to ask, have you shot any idpa or uspsa? If not and it’s close to where you currently live, I recommend shooting some matches with your 45 acp. Shooting those kinds of matches are a great way to get used to getting on target quick while adding some stress. Excellent training tool.

  92. newrouter says:

    The point is, there’s more value created in blue states than red states. GDP is a measure of that.

    minus out the welfare folks and grifters and get back to us a hole

  93. newrouter says:

    GDP is a measure of that.
    broken window economics

  94. newrouter says:

    GDP is a measure of that.</i.

    spend money like the the clowns @ epa say to do big effin' win. you be too stupid. soros get better idiots please.

  95. Darleen says:

    Ezra Klein: How much more difficult of a problem did the federal government give itself when they tried to unveil a single piece of tech that could handle huge traffic on day one?

    Fred Trotter, the author of “Hacking Healthcare,”: They screwed themselves twice. The first thing they did that was very foolish was to go at scale. Usually when the government understands the problem of that they do things in phases. They didn’t draft everyone for Vietnam all at once. That’s the model they should’ve used.*

    Oh dear god …

  96. newrouter says:

    hi

  97. hellomynameissteve says:

    It’s a deal. You keep your welfare recipients. We’ll keep ours.

  98. newrouter says:

    You keep your welfare recipients. We’ll keep ours.

    we don’t have that problem you?

  99. newrouter says:

    You keep your welfare recipients. We’ll keep ours.

    iiii we don’t have that problem you?

  100. McGehee says:

    Yup. GDP includes things like insurance payments on criminal losses, rebuilding costs from rioting, and graft.

  101. Drumwaster says:

    The point is, there’s more value created in blue states than red states. GDP is a measure of that.

    Value created from what raw resources, processed with what energy, and handled by what people who are fed with what food?

    GDP requires resources, energy and people that are not starving. Amusingly enough, all the blue areas are places that offer nothing but intrusive governments and hungry bellies. And you seem to think that there are not starving peoples all over the world that could use the food and energy that is no longer flowing to those blue areas. (When Arizona even hinted at shutting off power over California’s official denunciation of AZ’s border policy (even though it mirrored Federal policy), energy prices spiked in California. California doesn’t say anything any more. Fancy that.)

    Big cities are the exception, not the norm, and are always just 3 days away from starvation. Trucks run around the clock to bring in the raw foodstuffs and haul away the waste.

    When those trucks stop for lack of fuel (something blue areas ALSO lack), do you think that the GDP of those blue areas might slump a tad?

  102. McGehee says:

    Here’s a better one: you keep your welfare recipients and we’ll send you ours.

  103. hellomynameissteve says:

    New, ever hear of this little place called “The South”. It’s yours.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html?src=tp&_r=0

  104. McGehee says:

    If you want them for votes or as food sources matters not a whit to us.

  105. hellomynameissteve says:

    Sorry McGehee – they seem to be a product of red states. You gotta own them, man.

  106. BigBangHunter says:

    – Yes, we know how much you despise the South, mainly because of what it reminds everyone of that is a big part of the legacy of your brain dead cult/party.

  107. McGehee says:

    150 years ago or so, Democrats formed a paramilitary arm to frighten black Southerners away from “acting white.” Nowadays that role is performed by other blacks. Much of the persistent poverty in the South is because large swaths of the population rejects the attitudes and values that could lift them out of poverty — because of efforts by Democrats, first white, then not.

  108. BigBangHunter says:

    – Face it Steve-dolt, in any such scenario the Left is fucked. You’ve disarmed your selves to gaurentee your defenselessness. Thank you.

  109. McGehee says:

    Leave it to a Democrat to advocate that people own other people.

  110. Drumwaster says:

    Q:”Why are conservatives opposed to gun control?” A:”In case we have to shoot Democrats. It happened during the Civil War, and it could happen again.” — P.J. O’Rourke

  111. BigBangHunter says:

    – Its all good as long as you can control everything in sight and keep the low info groups volunteering in their own enslavement. Lose that and your days are defined and numbered.

  112. McGehee says:

    they seem to be a product of red states blue counties

    FTFY.

  113. hellomynameissteve says:

    Big – it does seem unlikely that Red states could ever live at peace with their neighbors. Why you brag about this, I’m not sure. Are you just admitting that you’re not really ready for civilization?

  114. McGehee says:

    “You must live at peace with we who endlessly make war on you,” said the progfascist.

  115. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum – fantasizing about murdering your fellow American’s again. Patriotism!

  116. newrouter says:

    New, ever hear of this little place called “The South”.

    stevie hates the black peeps

  117. hellomynameissteve says:

    McGehee – you guys are just itching for an excuse to start shooting – but god forbid the feds infiltrate you as a dangerous radical group.

  118. newrouter says:

    -you’re not really ready for civilization?-

    fu dickhead. and go pound the baracky!!11!! and val gal

  119. McGehee says:

    hellomynameisselfcontradiction thinks the North was wrong to wage war on the Confederacy.

  120. McGehee says:

    hellomynameisparanoidschizophrenic is arguing with a cartoon in his head.

  121. newrouter says:

    >you guys are just itching for an excuse to start shooting<

    Police State: Feds Raid Investigative Reporter @AudreyHudson, Seize Notes

    so what?

  122. BigBangHunter says:

    – Your comments show a child-like naivette of human nature steve-dult. It won’t be the Red state peoples that will do you in. Your own kind, bereft of any moral basis, a total lack of civiliaty if you will, will do you in, no help needed. When the trucks stop running you’ll have less than a week to find a place to hide.

  123. McGehee says:

    If we were itching for an excuse to start shooting, we would have started shooting decades ago.

  124. Drumwaster says:

    Isn’t it nice that hellomynameisslave has his collar already picked out? I mean, since there is nothing that he sees worth fighting for, such as the freedom to not have some bureaucrat stick his nose where it doesn’t belong. Given the point they have reached, that line was crossed quite some time ago, but as the wise man once wrote, “all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

    Seems to me that those fellows had to shoot some of their neighbors, too.

  125. hellomynameissteve says:

    new thinks only black people are on welfare.

  126. newrouter says:

    >you guys are just itching for an excuse to start shooting<

    Police killing of boy renews debate on toy guns

  127. McGehee says:

    hellomynameisiam thinks anybody gives a shit what he says about anything or anyone.

  128. Drumwaster says:

    You keep dodging those uncomfortable truths and unpleasant questions.

    That would be funny, if it weren’t so pathetic.

  129. BigBangHunter says:

    new thinks only black people are on welfare.

    – Not at all. Bumblefucks Utopian gestoppo and the Progressive commie cult has worked tirelessly to force as many people as possible out of productive roles in societry and onto the welfare government dole side. Problem is not everyone is stupid or willing to trade freedom for faux security.

  130. newrouter says:

    >new thinks only black people are on welfare<

    how many black people are on federal gov't assistance hellomynameissoros? how do they vote? do they keep the plantation tidy?

  131. BigBangHunter says:

    – Your mantra has been clear for a long time now Steve-dult, and its glaringly obvious:

    – From each according to his gullibility, too each according to his slough.

  132. Blake says:

    our resident stupid leftist completely ignores the minor problem of O!care and enforcement. Don’t buy insurance, pay a fine. Don’t pay the fine, go to jail.

    Enforcement of O!care is at the point of a gun and those with the guns will, I’m sure, make some tragic “mistakes” enforcing O!care. So, who’s okay with shooing fellow Americans, again?

  133. BigBangHunter says:

    – But hey, don’t feel bad. your cultists were able to convince a hell of a lot of weak souls to sell out their sovereignty, just not enough to pull off yet another edition of the failed Russian Marxism bullshit dream.

    – Hopefully when the Dragon turns on you you will be spared. That is what you should be concentrating on now because its a bigt part of your future if you even have a future.

  134. Drumwaster says:

    how many black people are on federal gov’t assistance

    I wonder how percentages of welfare recipients as a percentage of their minority block would compare…

    Let’s see if there is any data that hellomynameishellomynameishellomynameis will be able to follow

    The percentages those on welfare by race as of 2011 are listed below in descending order by percentage.
    Black-39.8%
    White-38.8%
    Hispanic-15.7%
    Other-3.3%
    Asian-2.4%

    Okay, let’s see how that compares with the actual makeup of society

    Whites make up 69.1% of the population.
    Blacks – 12.1%
    Hispanic – 12.5%
    Asian – 3.6%

    So when there are actually more blacks on welfare than whites, even though there are more than five times as many whites than blacks, what conclusions would you draw? That seems to imply that blacks are more than five times more likely to be on welfare than whites. But math is RAAACIST, no doubt…

  135. newrouter says:

    new thinks only black people are on welfare.

    i also think baracky like ’em some “alternative energy” kick back. you go val gal!!11!! commie scum.

  136. hellomynameissteve says:

    Big, that totally explains why blue states out perform red states on just about every measure. You guys would be the libertarian utopia of Somalia in no time.

    Drum – continues the murder fantasies.

  137. Drumwaster says:

    Big, that totally explains why blue states out perform red states on just about every measure.

    Another assertion without proof. Be specific. Provide evidence, and we will discuss how those numbers would seriously change when people have neither food nor power.

  138. newrouter says:

    i took a test yesterday from time. it said i should live in colorado. i want to succeed.

  139. Drumwaster says:

    Drum – continues the murder fantasies.

    Like “just give them a pill”?

    http://radioviceonline.com/obama-to-heart-patient-take-a-pill/

    Oh, right, that’s the guy you think is doing such a wonderful job. What about his sedition and violations of his oath of office? No comment?

  140. SBP says:

    “Red states need to sell food”

    No, they don’t.

    Other than that, great point.

    Yes, not being able to get XBoxes or watch the antics of the Kardashians would be an inconvenience to some, but they’d survive. The blue areas wouldn’t.

  141. newrouter says:

    > why blue states out perform red states on just about every measure.<

    fiscal measures clown? effin californification dreaming on such a stupid day

  142. BigBangHunter says:

    – Your false measurements of “perform” will be quickly exposed when you run out of other peoples production to live off and steal. In such a scenario if you’d really prefer to be in the “user” group rather than the “producer” group, you’re not only ideologically blind you’re simply stupid.

  143. newrouter says:

    the baracky has his A team on hand jive

  144. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum – New indicated that (most? all?) the people on welfare are black, not that black people are more likely to be on welfare than white people. You guys would call this “moving the goal posts.”

  145. Drumwaster says:

    Red states need to sell food

    But not necessarily to the blue States. You think there are some hungry people in Africa? South America?

    Kind of like the Keystone pipeline. Canada is going to sell the energy, but when Obama shut down the line, they can sell to China just as easily.

    “Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.” — Robert A. Heinlein

  146. geoffb says:

    [A] website designed by Progressives

    Oh yeah.

  147. hellomynameissteve says:

    Look. Secede. I’d be more than willing to take my chances. Seriously, hurry the fuck up and get that ball rolling. What are you waiting for? If you think I’m trying to talk you into staying, I’m not. Git.

  148. Drumwaster says:

    Ever going to answer my questions? Or are you too scared of the truths that will arise?

  149. SBP says:

    “Big, that totally explains why blue states out perform red states on just about every measure. ”

    Maybe if you don’t count trivial things like employment rates, economic growth rates, or population growth rate.

  150. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum – I think they’ll sell to whomever offers the highest price. That’s how markets work. Do I really need to explain this to you?

  151. Drumwaster says:

    Has the White House ever actually responded to those secession petitions that had several hundred thousand signatures? You think that there aren’t a few people in DC who understand what happens when you blow up the grocery store?

  152. Drumwaster says:

    Drum – I think they’ll sell to whomever offers the highest price.

    Yeah, but not all value is money. You don’t get that bit, either. (See also “Freedom of Association”.)

  153. geoffb says:

    And those sweet memories of Princeton days past with the sista’s.

  154. newrouter says:

    . Do I really need to explain this to you?

    yes explain barackycare. explain what you proggtard idiots are doing, explain the world as your delusion exposes it?

  155. SBP says:

    “I think they’ll sell to whomever offers the highest price.”

    And you think blue state money will still have value why, exactly?

  156. BigBangHunter says:

    – You notice that the Lefties never speak about any of Bumblefucks accomplishmenst. Thats because he has not kept a single promise he made when running for office, not only to our chagrin, but totally confusing and dissapointing his true believers, so much so, they simply do not kno whow to respond.

    Promise: * If I’m elected we’ll be out of Afghanistan as soon as I take office.

    Reality: Obama is a worse cowboy than Bush and Cheny put together. In fact he’;s followed the Bush/Cheney doctrin to the letter, if anything ractheting up on the drown attacks significantly. He could barely contain himself from gleefull end zone dances and TV braggadicios when the Seals took down Osama. Gitmo is still there and operational.

    Yet where are the voices on the Left, Code Pink, Mother Sheehan, while all this has been going on. *crickets*

    – The truth is the Left is more dismayed than the right with Bumblefuck and his betrayals. they just can’t face it or how completely they’ve been used.

  157. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum, they could “sell to Africa” right now. Go tell them.

    Secede guys. Seriously. Who’s organized a protest for tomorrow morning? Get moving! A fucking blog post isn’t going to get it done. Get off your ass and organize.

  158. Drumwaster says:

    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2012-Election-County-By-County.png

    It divides up into “consumers” vs “providers”. Funny how that works.

  159. newrouter says:

    hellomynameissteve- should show what the eff he thinks ” health care” should be? bs like england? shit like canada?

  160. SBP says:

    “I’d be more than willing to take my chances.”

    Shouldn’t you run that by the “little woman” first?

    How’s that Catholic Care policy coming along, by the way? I’ve been assured by many, many leftists that the Catholic Church’s stand on abortion is the most horrific abuse of human rights in history.

    So why are you planning to buy insurance from them?

  161. SBP says:

    Drumwaster: link no worky.

  162. hellomynameissteve says:

    And you think blue state money will still have value why, exactly?

    I already provided a sampling of the goods and services that come out of blue states. Go look at the list and tell me what you didn’t understand. I have little interest in answering the question again just because you’re too lazy to read.

  163. hellomynameissteve says:

    SBP – believe it or not, it’s unlikely we’ll need an abortion. And I could afford it in any case.

  164. Darleen says:

    hey myinaneissteve

    CA had 1/3 of all welfare recipients in the nation

    woohoo

  165. hellomynameissteve says:

    Darleen, why don’t you move?

  166. Drumwaster says:

    Drum, they could “sell to Africa” right now. Go tell them.

    What do you have against Africans? You’re not racist, are you?

    Seriously, though…

    When the alternative is to sell to people who have nothing but demands, and those funny green pieces of paper, I think they would sell to anyone who actually has the money. The blue areas won’t have that money, because they will have no wealth to back it up.

    Wealth is not those little green pieces of paper, that’s just money, useful for trade, but not backed by anything but the promises of a government that is about to collapse. Wealth is arable land. Wealth is energy. Wealth is potable water. Those blue areas are notoriously short on all three.

    You keep thinking that US currency will be worth anything by that time. I imagine the Weimar Republic thought the same thing.

  167. newrouter says:

    Secede guys.

    will do i say fuck you and barackycare.

    The Trammps – Disco Inferno (Burn Baby Burn)

  168. Drumwaster says:

    I already provided a sampling of the goods and services that come out of blue states.

    Again, now will any of those thing happen without food or power? You seem to think that the status quo will continue indefinitely.

  169. BigBangHunter says:

    ….[it’s] unlikely we’ll need an abortion.

    – As it happens there are quite a few members of the Leftist cult that won’t likely need abortions but that doesn’t stop them from instigating others to act immorally because mean spirited mischief is a common theme among the moraless community.

  170. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum – you gonna just shit talk or get behind this secession movement? Why write messages to me when you could be working on getting it in the tea party platform. Slacktivist.

  171. hellomynameissteve says:

    Drum, take your food, power, and go. What are you waiting for?

  172. SBP says:

    > Let’s see, there’s the whole software industry
    Leaving Silicon Valley in droves.

    > financial services,

    Goes where the money is. It’s all electronic now — you don’t need to have runners shuffling slips of paper, so the advantage of a centralized location is much smaller than it was.

    > lumber,

    Washington and Oregon are marginally blue states, at best, and the timber-producing regions and populations of those states are solid red.

    > they might want to buy an airplane if they have airlines,

    Haven’t heard about Boeing building their new factory in South Carolina, I see, nor about them cutting lots-o-jobs in Seattle.

    > There’s this fish called salmon that some people like

    Almost all of which comes from Alaska. Alaska produces 10x the amount of salmon as Washington, Oregon, and California combined.

    Idiot.

    Next!

  173. BigBangHunter says:

    I imagine the Weimar Republic thought the same thing.

    – Apparently Steve-dolt missed my first hand account of the perils of my college who lived through those times getting paid with shoeboxes of Deutchmarks.

    – That seems to be the lot of Progressives. They’re never around when the truth is being related, only hear the theories that get them killed.

  174. newrouter says:

    or get behind this secession movement?

    you effin’ commies there be land in putin’s russia. > go for it proggtards.

  175. hellomynameissteve says:

    I just checked the news. You haven’t seceded yet. As far as I can tell, you aren’t even trying. Does the thought of *doing something* terrify you? Go.

  176. SBP says:

    I’ve seen a two billion mark stamp with my own eyes. By that point the stamp printing presses couldn’t keep up, so they started just rubber-stamping the new value on the old stamps with black ink.

  177. SBP says:

    “As far as I can tell, you aren’t even trying.”

    Tell you what: maybe we’ll look into it after you actually sign up for Obamacare.

  178. newrouter says:

    > What are you waiting for?<

    for the proggtards to show their credentialed stupid. harvard stupid!!11!!

  179. Drumwaster says:

    No, it will require that the People be taught what failures the Progressives are, and that lesson only began a few weeks ago.

    Better get that website fixed. What are you waiting for?

  180. newrouter says:

    >You haven’t seceded yet. <

    well farting in your general direction will do. co2 free dontcha know

  181. newrouter says:

    how stupid is harvard?

  182. Darleen says:

    inane

    I would, but my elderly parents & inlaws live here. Husband & I don’t want to be more than an hour or so away.

    CA is well down the road of neo-feudalism. Very rich and working poor. Middle class is being shoved away.

  183. BigBangHunter says:

    – And just when you think the web site couldn’t be more screwed up we found out today listening to the healthcare hearings, that even after enrolling there is zero gaurentee an applicant is actually signed up or the data is communicated accurately or even at all.

    – what a total freekin mess.

  184. SBP says:

    It’s kind of amazing to see Slaphead continuing to defend Zero Care, when even Dianne Friggin’ Feinstein has acknowledge the botch.

  185. BigBangHunter says:

    – Yeah. When you lose Fein-idiot, you’re really standing on paper thin ice.

  186. happyfeet says:

    only Mr. Dan’s hairdresser knows for sure

  187. palaeomerus says:

    “hellomynameissteve says October 25, 2013 at 10:49 pm
    Drum, take your food, power, and go. What are you waiting for?”

    Yeah, hmni-steve thinks people here have some urge to impress him again. He’s kind of slow with the whole being a persona nongrata thing he has going on.

  188. palaeomerus says:

    “As to all these people “losing” insurance. Let’s just see how many people are insured come March 31s of 2014 compared with March 31st of 2013.”

    Yep. The left is always asking for more time, money, power, and bureaucracy after talking big and then stepping on their own dicks.

  189. newrouter says:

    . Does the thought of *doing something* terrify you?

    no the effin police state you baracky clowns are building does.

    D.C. businessman faces two years in jail for unregistered ammunition, brass casing

  190. palaeomerus says:

    Steve has so much to teach us about shit he doesn’t know much about.

  191. Drumwaster says:

    I believe the word for that is “philosophunculist”. (You’re welcome.)

  192. BigBangHunter says:

    – That seems to be the only way Proggs know how to have phun…..humorless bastitches.

  193. Patrick Chester says:

    Hm. It’s amusing how the “steve” troll seems to think it’s clever with it’s spewage and all I think is:

    “RUDIMENTARY CREATURE OF BLOOD AN FLESH. YOU PARROT TALKING POINTS, THINKING IT MEANS SOMETHING, DISPLAYING ONLY IGNORANCE.”

    Ah well.
    *switches subwoofer back on*

    “THIS EXCHANGE IS OVER.”

  194. geoffb says:

    CGI is so Canadian their name is French: Conseillers en Gestion et Informatique

    Perfect.

    Their most famous government project was for the Canadian Firearms Registry. The registry was estimated to cost in total $119 million, which would be offset by $117 million in fees. That’s a net cost of $2 million. Instead, by 2004 the CBC (Canada’s PBS) was reporting costs of some $2 billion — or a thousand times more expensive.

    Perfect record. … Still intact.

  195. geoffb says:

    About the same piece above.

    “We were working in a very very nimble hyper-consumer-focused way,” explained Todd Park, the chief technology officer of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, “all fused in this kind of maelstrom of pizza, Mountain Dew, and all-nighters . . . and, you know, idealism. That kind of led to the magic that was produced.”

    The Clinton-Monica affair, which started the destruction of his presidency, began with all-nighters and pizza too.

  196. Dalekhunter says:

    My secessionist energies are devoted to a free Cascadia. From San Fran to British Columbia on the Western side. More than enough food and resources. Ports for trade, travel and fish, and the natural protections afforded by mountain ranges. Politically, farther left than blue could ever hope to be – bioregionalism at its finest.

    I’m getting to this late – but why would redtopia not sell food to bluistan? Pre-schism trade relationships would likely still exist, and trade is probably a better deal than economic/social isolationism.

  197. I do not know the answer. I just want to be left alone. “The other side?” Wants me humiliated & dead. How do you respond to that, aside from dealing death yourself?

  198. SBP says:

    “but why would redtopia not sell food to bluistan?”

    Because Bluistan’s “money” would be backed by their full faith and credit, of which they have neither.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57609429/consultants-arrival-brings-hope-to-w.h-in-obamacare-website-repair/

    Jeff’s ability to create structure and a process and accountability has a lot of us feeling much better about all this than we did a week ago,” a senior official said.

    Buzzword, buzzword, buzzword. Nothing about “Jeff’s” ability to write code, or even hire people who can write code. He has no experience doing either. But you can bet there’ll be plenty of “structure” and “process”. 10 meetings per day, until the schedule slips, at which point they’ll switch to 20 meetings per day.

    “We set expectations unreasonably high before and we are paying the price for that. We do not want to do that again.”

    Yep. Expecting a $292 million site to, you know, work, was “unreasonable”.

  199. Mueller says:

    Steve is being disingenuous.
    Illinois is predominately a red state which is dominated by its blue cities. If your talking gdp as a whole then the blue areas seem to dominate because that is where the bulk of financial activity is taking place CBT,CBO etc. But the city itself is served by its collar counties. Most of which are red. City folk having moved out of the city to be rid of burdensome taxes and regulations. The bulk of the educated workers that populate the city during the day are from the collar counties.
    The city is an administrative center mostly for finance.
    The city would have a hard time building a bus, maintaining a train, manufacturing bridge components. Making asphalt or concrete.
    And yes Steve before the government got involved in agricultural trade farmers and co-ops would routinely make their own deals with foreign buyers.
    Why should a people be forced to act against their own interests?

  200. Mueller says:

    I’m beginning to think that Steve isn’t an honest broker.

  201. Pablo says:

    Politically, farther left than blue could ever hope to be – bioregionalism at its finest.

    Wrong again! But nice try. My neck of the woods is bluer than yours.

  202. geoffb says:

    Throughout everything Obama has done is one theme, one goal which he has set out to obtain, by any means necessary. That goal is the destruction of the United States of America as a, and especially as the, world’s superpower. To see to it that the USA as a beacon of liberty is snuffed out and thrown into the dustbin of history as the exception, anomaly, oddity, that failed.

    Creating a dis-United, balkanized, States of America would do just as well for that purpose as a United Socialist States of America. By Any Means Necessary means just that, any means, any way, just so long as the main goal is reached.

    Freedom, the people as the sovereign, and free enterprise are a great part of what makes the USA the world’s superpower and that beacon of liberty. But there are other things which also have led to this state.

    We are a physically large nation. One which extends from the arctic to the tropics, mountains and fertile plains, deserts and forests. Underground resources which even now we have yet to tap more than a fraction of. One which has a huge seacoast which is ice free year round and is on two of the world’s three great oceans.

    Throwing this away to become a new Europe where much of our strength is wasted in strife between small, isolated, free and not so free States throws out the baby with the bathwater. To continue to be what the USA is we must also continue to be the USA.

    Can we? That is the question isn’t it.

  203. Blake says:

    geoffb, I think the people in charge would rather burn the country down than let it survive as a Constitutional Republic. And I think the people in the White House have too many willing accomplices, whether big business or big government, to go quietly into the night.

  204. McGehee says:

    In contrast to hellomynameismustbegoing, DK shows up to ask a reasonable, thought-provoking question.

    Day is night, wet is dry, the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man is Jar-Jar.

  205. McGehee says:

    In fairness, Pablo, DK may be thinking in terms similar to my red/blue counties suggestion, which would leave the dividing line essentially along the Cascade crest, at least north of Yreka and (snicker) Weed.

  206. geoffb says:

    Re: nr’s 9:26 pm and 9:55 pm.

    A search warrant obtained by TheDC indicates that the August raid allowed law enforcement to search for firearms inside her home.

    The document notes that her husband, Paul Flanagan, was found guilty in 1986 to resisting arrest in Prince George’s County. The warrant called for police to search the residence they share and seize all weapons and ammunition because he is prohibited under the law from possessing firearms.

    But without Hudson’s knowledge, the agents also confiscated a batch of documents that contained information about sources inside the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration, she said.

    Notice the pretext and that a conviction on a resisting arrest charge, which is easy to set up, from 27 years ago will allow a search for firearms because, well, because there just might be some there because the wife might have some, maybe. So that will get us in the door which is all we need.

    But it wasn’t until a month later, on Sept. 10, that Hudson was informed by Bosch [the agent in charge. (ed.)] that five files including her handwritten and typed notes from interviews with numerous confidential sources and other documents had been taken during the raid.

    “In particular, the files included notes that were used to expose how the Federal Air Marshal Service had lied to Congress about the number of airline flights there were actually protecting against another terrorist attack,” Hudson wrote in a summary about the raid provided to TheDC.
    […]

    She said she asked Bosch why they took the files. He responded that they needed to run them by TSA to make sure it was “legitimate” for her to have them.

    “‘Legitimate’ for me to have my own notes?” she said incredulously on Wednesday.

    Asked how many sources she thinks may have been exposed, Hudson said: “A lot. More than one. There were a lot of names in those files.”

    “This guy basically came in here and took my anonymous sources and turned them over — took my whistleblowers — and turned it over to the agency they were blowing the whistle on,”

  207. geoffb says:

    BTW, I was talking about the idea of having trade wars or real wars between different States/regions not the redrawing of the boundaries of States that now exist and doing so under the Constitution. Sundering this nation into warring regions aids what the left and Obama wants.

  208. steveaz says:

    It is not incorrect to analyze the Prog takeovers of America’s strategic, Western areas through the prism of war and the warriors’ deliberate tactic of invasion.

    We are AT WAR! Every property of any strategic, military value to America appears to be under invasion by Progressivism’s trifecta of media, institutional dependancy and big Government, and this is no accident.

    Take Washington State’s crucial Puget Sound region and its affiliated cold-water ports, fisheries, timber-lands, etc.: the entire region has been annexed by the Left, and without a shot being fired! Look at Colorado’s essential NORAD facilities and its surrounding, strategic communities: on the brink of falling to the enemy, too. And then consider California, America’s indispensible Emerald Empire (where California leads, America follows!, remember?): all the strategic coastlines, farm-land and governing capitals have surrendered to Progressive Coastal Commissions, Cesar Chavez-style agricultural unionizing and the Left’s politically correct oligarchies.

    In short, we’ve been infiltrated. And select strategic ground has been quietly conquered in what even the Democrats concede is a Ground War. Maybe it’s time we took the internationalist Left’s labels literally.

    Sarah Palin’s “targeting” of vulnerable civilian elections districts was panned in Liberal media for its militarism. This is because her opponents, both foreign and domestic, utilize civic associations and elections to achieve what are, in the end, military goals.

    Lose sight of this at your peril, Patriots. And watch out for the next conqests: Texas’ energy stores are definitely on the list. So is Alaska (not so much the coasts as the much bally-hooed North Slope and ANWR regions). And, as water is essential to political power plays in the Southwest, watch for a rereckoning of the West’s four-state compact divying up the Colorado River’s waters (arguably, Obama’s DOJ’s pokes at Arizona over SB1070 were designed to prepare the battle-space for this inevitable Progressive thrust).

    Viewed through this prism, the theater of secession now onstage in Colorado and California may be too little too late.

  209. McGehee says:

    Good fences make good neighbors; if “they” have no occasion to see “us” as obstructing their quest for the perfect socialist society, “they” will have no reason to make war, figurative or literal, on “us.”

    Except of course when things go wrong on their side of the boundary — which they will blame on foreign saboteurs, just as Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini were wont to do.

    But for a day or so before then, peace and quiet.

  210. McGehee says:

    And in light of the “sabotage” accusation already being hurled re Healthcare.gov…

    WRECKER!

  211. cranky-d says:

    I do not know the answer. I just want to be left alone. “The other side?” Wants me humiliated & dead. How do you respond to that, aside from dealing death yourself?

    If I think of another solution, I’ll let you know. Don’t hold your breath, though, because I don’t hold out much hope of success.

  212. sdferr says:

    If I think of another solution, I’ll let you know.

    If truly alone, the atomized individual (as Tocqueville made clear) stands against an organization of immense proportion and feels defeated before he begins. This is the key to the success of the political left, to make tens and possibly hundreds of millions who are not formally united against the project of the political left believe that each individual in his solitude has no chance to make the change he would seek.

    Which is why Sens. Cruz and Lee constantly appeal to the individuals to recognize their actual strength in numbers, over against the false perception that each as an individual is alone. The “other” way is to bring scattered opinion together as one.

  213. sdferr says:

    Recall again Alinsky’s bullet # 1: “Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.”

    Alinsky’s point is the perception of relative strength — whether the perception is true or corresponds to the actual numbers or is false and merely corresponds to an appearance of power.

    The political left is vastly outnumbered in the USA, but is well unified at telling lies, not least of which is that it possesses more power than it has in fact. The false belief instilled in the opposition to the political left goes more than halfway to achieving their goal — possessing all the power in fact.

  214. Drumwaster says:

    Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. — Robert A. Heinlein

    It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error, it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. — Robert H. Jackson, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, 1941-1954 (American Communications Association v. Douds, 339 U.S. 382, 442. (1950))

    Must be a yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please. Rules, laws – always for other fellow. A murky part of us, something we had before we came down out of trees, and failed to shuck when we stood up. Because not one of those people said: “Please pass this so that I won’t be able to do something I know I should stop.” Nyet, tovarischee, was always something they hated to see their neighbors doing. Stop them “for their own good” – not because speaker claimed to be harmed by it. — Manuel Garcia O’Kelly Davis (“The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress”)

  215. sdferr says:

    The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

    Still politically untenable as a proposition, if not simply moronic. But hey, follow the “rational anarchist” into a blithering irrational oblivion. It’ll be a funnsie fantasist’s carney-ride, so what the hell!

  216. McGehee says:

    Stop them “for their own good” – not because speaker claimed to be harmed by it.

    In reality these days it is at least as often that they must be stopped because they’re harming some (usually imaginary) third party (who for some reason always left unmentioned) is never harmed badly enough to step up and speak for himself.

  217. The Monster says:

    If you’re actually celebrating the fact that your fellow americans who want insurance are running into difficulty getting it, then you’re an asshole.

    This gets to one of the fundamental differences between Leftists (who call themselves the “reality-based community”) and sane people.

    When they push their plans, and we say “your plan will fail”, they say “you meanies WANT it to fail”, as if what we want has any effect on what happens. They privilege their alleged good intentions above the actual consequences of their policies. Ed Morrissey calls it the “Tinkerbell” argument; we’re the bad guys because we don’t believe hard enough.

    Repeal is impossible until enough lawmakers realize exactly how fucked up things are, just like with Prohibition. So I am all for implementing it EXACTLY AS THE LAW IS WRITTEN. The faster it collapses under its own weight, the faster people will realize that the government is the problem, not the solution. Not YOU, of course, but rational folk.

    I’m afraid you don’t comprehend that Obamacare is not failing. Everything is proceeding according to plan. Obamacare is not designed to accomplish its stated objectives, which rational folk know it cannot achieve. It is designed to collapse the system in classic Cloward-Piven fashion.

    The resulting mess will be so bad that The People™ will rise up and DEMAND! that Someone Smart Do Something About It!™. And Hillary will say “you know, I tried to get Single Payer through back when Bill was President, but nooooooo, those evil Rethuglicans fought it. Elect me and we’ll do it RIGHT this time!”

  218. The Monster says:

    In reality these days it is at least as often that they must be stopped because they’re harming some (usually imaginary) third party (who for some reason always left unmentioned) is never harmed badly enough to step up and speak for himself.

    Take, for example, PETA and other “animal rights” organizations, as well as the broad coalition pushing the “Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming and/or Climate Change (or whatever the nom du jour is). The fact that there can’t possibly be any “inauthentic” “Uncle Tom” animals to disagree with the former, nor any way that Gaia could let us all know “No, dears, I don’t really have a fever. Everything’s just fine.” is a feature of this new tactic.

  219. cranky-d says:

    Even if Obamacare were repealed right now, it has already done an enormous amount of damage to the economy and to individuals that will take years to repair, if it can be repaired. And, of course, it will not be repealed, so here we are.

  220. leigh says:

    That is an excellent essay, sdferr. Depressing, but excellent.

    Why is it liberals cannot let people simply live their lives? And they call us Nazis.

  221. sdferr says:

    Why is it liberals cannot let people simply live their lives?

    In part it’s because an FDR can get away with turning “D” into the Forgotten Man, eliding “C” once again altogether (and proving Sumner’s point in the doing of it), or because the illiberals get away with anyone and everyone calling them liberals when they’re anything but.

  222. Drumwaster says:

    And that is my point. ObamaCare being repealed is at least arguing that the government had the right to dictate health-care-based behavior, they just didn’t do it “the right way”. And since the quickest way to learn the “Prohibition” lesson all over again is to expose the consequences in the greatest detail, collapse the system, and start from scratch, because even if it were to go away today, the Feds still control what kind of light bulbs we use and the flow rate of our shower heads, which is utterly ridiculous in any sane society.

    And now the so-called “civil servants” have exposed their intention to become “civil master”, and the tipping point is near. Americans didn’t sign up for this, and when a massive majority (better than 2/3) don’t want a law, millions of people are being directly harmed by the latest government boondoggle, and the media has exposed their own activities as nothing more than paid stenographers for the people that are fucking things up so badly, the collapse will be loud and long.

    And there is nothing that can be done to stop it, merely delay the inevitable. The longer the delay, the harder the impact when it does come.

  223. leigh says:

    In part it’s because an FDR can get away with turning “D” into the Forgotten Man, eliding “C” once again altogether (and proving Sumner’s point in the doing of it), or because the illiberals get away with anyone and everyone calling them liberals when they’re anything but.

    As I suspected, it is all a vanity. Or more rightly, the vanity of A and B harnessed to the labor of C for the dubious “good” of D who isn’t interested in A and B in the slightest.

  224. SBP says:

    It’s that language thing. These people are communists, not liberals.

  225. leigh says:

    Yes, they are Spies. There is nothing liberal about them.

  226. sdferr says:

    . . . D who isn’t interested in A and B in the slightest.

    But who, mayhap, ought to be (interested in A and B), if for instance, we imagine D for the moment as a downfallen Englishman (or a Polish peasant) somewhere in the countryside on Sept. 2, 1939. His world is about to change, where A and B were busy for years tending to other matters, or simply making poor decisions regarding that world. D, willy-nilly, and without much participation in the run-up at all, is about to get it in the neck. He may even look up from his run-down state to wonder, how in hell did I get me here?

  227. Mueller says:

    Are the questions too hard?

  228. leigh says:

    But who, mayhap, ought to be . . .

    If D thought for himself, he wouldn’t need the “benevolence” of A and B nor the hard earned labor of C. In the end A and B are always about A and B retaining their positions. That is until C and sometimes D have had enough and rise up against them to become latter day A and B with a new class of Cs to exploit for the benefit of Ds.

  229. There will always, in my opinion, be A’s, B’s, C’s, and D’s – such is the way of a world where Man is born with the taint of Original Sin.

    The key is for the C’s to restrain the other three and to be of sufficent numbers to enforce the restraints that have been put in place.

    Such a situation existed, for a time, during and after The Founding.

    But the C’s control of the situation declined as a result of (1) the slowly building influence of Leftist Thinking in the American Mind and (2) the, one dare say, ‘natural’ degrading of Virtue that seems to accompany every Republic once said Republic achieves Prosperity.

  230. sdferr says:

    Why is a universal condition (I suppose the argument goes) such as the credal Original Sin taken as a source of inequality, rather than a source of leveling toward equality? I ain’t sayin’ it isn’t so (since I don’t know one way or the other), mind, but wondering how the thinking goes along those lines?

  231. McGehee says:

    Original Sin is the knowledge of the difference between Good and Evil, which is a prerequisite for the ability to choose between them.

    Equality has never been the natural desire of Man. The bestial half of his dual nature is driven to increase his comfort — with sure access to food and water, to mates, and to the deference of his companions, whom he always wishes to relegate to inferiority so that he gets first choice of the food and mates.

    The bestial man sees nature as a finite quantity, so that he can only improve his own situation by diminishing everyone else’s. The intelligent man, knowing what it means to be able to choose between Good and Evil, knows that he can improve his situation by improving that of those around him. And he also knows that he can improve his status, thus insuring that he gets the best food and mates, by thus making his companions happy with him.

  232. sdferr says:

    Sure I don’t know, but somehow I may have got the wrong idea about Original Sin — thinking that prior to attaining knowledge of good and evil, the sin itself was committed in the act of disobedience to a clear injunction from the deity to keep the hell away from the fruit of such and such a tree. But as with many of the most fundamental concepts of human life, there seem to be numerous variations to be ascertained.

  233. leigh says:

    I believe it is the paradox that is Free Will, sdferr.

  234. Drumwaster says:

    Even in the Garden of Eden, it wasn’t the crime, it was the cover-up, an evasive, “pass the buck” answer to a direct question.

    See Genesis Chapter 3

  235. leigh says:

    A trait that Adam and Eve passed on to their young’uns. Cain brains Abel and then smarts off to God: “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

  236. Thanks, Leigh, McGehee, and Drumwaster for saving me some time. Your answers are damn well put.

    BTW, Sdferr, quoted your comment of today at 1033, here:
    Thoughts On The Present Crisis In America

  237. Blake says:

    One thing that has always fascinated me is the intransigence of those who had a face to face relationship with God. King David and Solomon being two examples that spring to mind.

    These are men who knew God intimately, yet, they still screwed up.

  238. […] protein wisdom discusses how best to secede from a state […]

  239. Pablo says:

    We’re designed to screw up, Blake.

  240. Mueller says:

    If the most common substance in the universe is stupidity,according to Einstein.
    The the bell curve must be skewed to the left.
    Which, coincidentally, is where most of the Democrats reside.
    Which explains their inability to answer simple questions
    or do simple math.

  241. Physics Geek says:

    Admit it: one of you is punking the rest of us. There’s no way steve could be that fucking stupid because… oh wait. Obama supporter and voter? Okay then. I withdraw my objection.

  242. Drumwaster says:

    I’ve always found this site helpful when trying to figure out progressives and other anti-American types:

    http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/Stupidity/

  243. sdferr says:

    D.C. Caller: Lawyers try to block Colorado’s 51st state initiative

    *** Three lawyers in Greeley, the largest city in Weld County, where talk of secession originated earlier this year, sent a letter to the county council saying that any move to break away from Colorado has to start with the citizens, not with the county commissioners who put the question on the ballot.

    “We find nothing in the law giving the Board of County Commissioners the power or authority to advocate, investigate or initiate the secession of Weld County,” the letter reads. ***

    And blah blah blah . . . .

    . . . . but see for yourself.

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