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Kagan: “It doesn’t sound coercive to me, I have to tell you”

Wow. Keep in mind as you read that this is a SCOTUS Justice — one who, had she not been elevated to the Court, might well have been the person arguing this case on behalf of the Obama Administration.

Here’s the exchange with Paul Clement, attorney representing the 26 states, who was giving his oral argument:

Mr. Clement: “Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court.  The constitutionality of the act’s massive expansion of Medicaid depends on the answer to two related questions.  First, is the expansion coercive?  And second, does that coercion matter?”

Justice Kagan: “Mr. Clement, can I ask you as just a matter of clarification; would you be making the same argument if, instead of the federal government picking up ninety percent of the cost, the federal government picked a hundred percent of the cost?”

Clement: “Justice Kagan if everything else in the statute remained the same I would be making the exact same argument.”

Kagan: “The exact same argument so, so that really reduces to the question of: why is a big gift from the federal government a matter of coercion?

“In other words, the federal government is here saying: we’re giving you a boatload of money.  There are no, is no matching funds requirement.  There are no extraneous conditions attached to it.

“It’s just a boatload of federal money for you to take and spend on poor people’s healthcare.  It doesn’t sound coercive to me, I have to tell you.”

This is a remarkable exchange for several reasons, not the least of which being that it makes clear, in no uncertain terms, that those on the left really do believe that all money belongs first to the government — and that the government is somehow responsible for making this money (whether by printing it or collecting it).   That is, they confuse and conflate having the money to dole out as a matter of procedure with owning the money and handing it out as a matter of largess.  And they are truly stunned when you aren’t terribly thankful for their enlightened decision to return some of your money to you.

That Kagan would refer to taxpayer money returned to the states as a “gift” from the government — while simultaneously supporting a position that we be mandated to pay that money whether we wish to or not — is absolutely astonishing.

Out of a sense of collegiality, the Senate has confirmed “liberal” Justices that don’t just share a different idea about how the Constitution is to be read; they share a different idea of the validity of the Constitution itself — a belief that is by necessity political in nature inasmuch as it necessitates a mistrust of the underlying governmental system to which they pledge an oath to uphold — and so should never, out of some quaint notion of comity, have be confirmed in the first place.

Once the court becomes an extension of the political arm of a particular party or political ideology outside of the ideology built into the Constitution itself (as a matter of foundational first principles for the purpose of ordering the society and protecting individual rights), it has been corrupted.

That we  are but one bad vote away from concluding that the Constitution written and ratified by those who fought a revolution to escape a monarchy allows for the federal government to force individuals to enter into private contracts against their will, is a testimony to just how close we’ve are to allowing the left to complete their coup — one that began with a usurpation of institutions and has long been bolstered by control over language and meaning through linguistic sleight of hand and pedestrian philosophical observation re-imagined as profound anti-foundational insight.

 

42 Replies to “Kagan: “It doesn’t sound coercive to me, I have to tell you””

  1. Ernst Schreiber says:

    My favorite part:

    “In other words, the federal government is here saying: we’re giving you a boatload of money. There are no, is no matching funds requirement. There are no extraneous conditions attached to it.

    It’s just a boatload of federal money for you to take and spend on poor people’s healthcare. It doesn’t sound coercive to me, I have to tell you.”

    Liberals really do think the goverment takes dross unicorn shit and spins it into gold dollar bills.

  2. Crawford says:

    No consideration to the people the money was confiscated from, either the modern taxpayer or the future taxpayer.

  3. Ernst Schreiber says:

    The people being coerced, by the way, are those citizens yet to be born who are going to have to pay for that “boatload of money” out of their reduced standard of living.

    But they don’t even exist yet, and thus have no agency, and can’t act or choose or any of that other stuff, so fuck ’em.

    in the long run we’re all dead right?

    Or am I still confused?

  4. McGehee says:

    There is something fundamentally wrong with these people’s brains.

  5. newrouter says:

    i find the use of wow to be endearing in 13 y/o girls

  6. geoffb says:

    From a post at Ace of Spades on coercion.

    The government can only do some things according to the Constitution. A great many things it can’t do.

    And yet it does them anyway. It does so by creating a “voluntary” partnership with the states, then provides money for the states to do what the federal government says they should do.

    This is how the enumerated powers idea is evaded.

    It is said that Congress’ spending power is plenary and unlimited (boy, is it ever!!) so it has a lot of power there. It can spend if it likes — and if it wants to bribe states to do things, then it can do that.

    A limitation on this power, however, is that Congress cannot do through the spending power what it would be forbidden to do by other parts of the Constitution. It cannot give orders to the states — the state governments are not inferior governments, taking orders from the central one.

    So if a so-called “spending” power exercise achieved via a “voluntary” partnership with the states is actually coercive — it violates the whole idea that the federal government may get involved in state business only if the state voluntarily agrees to it.

    The challengers’ argument is that the Medicaid expansion — in which the Secretary of Health may cut off all funding for states if they do not participate — is coercive. The fig leaf of it being “voluntary” is stripped away, and it is revealed that the federal government is simply doing what it is forbidden to do — give orders to inferior state governments.

  7. mc4ever59 says:

    Did Clement counter with anything Jeff or you folks have pointed out, such as it’s our money and it isn’t without strings attached?
    If you allow them to set and define the terms…..

  8. SmokeVanThorn says:

    I have a proposition for the learned justice:

    She sends me 40% of her income. I will return some portion of that to her, but only on the express condition that she spend it in the ways I direct, such as contributions to the NRA, Focus on the Family, local crisis pregancy center, etc.

    Deal?

  9. newrouter says:

    ulsterman

    First few days of SC going well for us. Yesterday rocked them back. Today not as explosive but real panic setting in among the Obama people. Discussion last night with -Name Deleted – told me his contact at -Deleted- indicated administration is already putting up warnings regarding summer chaos plan if SC decision goes against them. Called it a “Healthcare Warfare” plan. Muck up the administrative machine so badly there will be delays, confusion, and then anger. They are serious about it.

    Obama will then point to the chaos and make an “I told you so” move to the American people. They plan to have him run against Congress, run against the SC, run against alleged racism, run against Wall Street. He is running for nothing and against everything.

    Wanted to let you know on the Healthcare Warfare thing. Help get the word out. Tell others to watch for signs of it unfolding if it looks like the SC is going to rule against Obamacare. Right now the mandate is about 80% gone. The rest of Obamacare is about 50/50 according to -Name Deleted- and he sat in on the pharma meetings with the administration so likely solid judgement on this.

    So add healthcare riots to the race riots that are coming this summer.

    F*ck him.

    F*ck all of them.

    Hold the line. I’ll do the heavy lifting. You just help spread the word. I want people to know when they see it.

    link

  10. McGehee says:

    I need more guns.

  11. Crawford says:

    Isn’t that an absolute, unwavering truth for everyone, McGehee?

    And don’t short on ammo! Be a pity to have pieces to share but nothing to put in them!

  12. Ernst Schreiber says:

    He is running for [Hope and Change] and against everything [thwarting Change and deflating Hope].

    Sorel, Gramsci and Alinsky should be proud.

  13. Silver Whistle says:

    I need a shotshell reloader. 16 ga ammo is wiping me out.

  14. […] at Protein Wisdom, Jeff Goldstein, after exposing Justice Kagan as the Leftist dullard she is makes this comment: Out of a sense of collegiality, the Senate has confirmed “liberal” Justices that don’t just […]

  15. Joan Of Argghh says:

    It really does smack the gob, doesn’t it?

    She’s not stupid, and she knows exactly how it all works. It’s not a matter of belief, but of manipulation of the hearers.

    After all, is this not the same Kagan that falsified a medical brief (lied) in order to support her position on partial-birth abortion?

    (And Lindsey, “I’m comfortable with Romney,” Graham voted to approve her. Just sayin’ . )

  16. geoffb says:

    More just making it up and figuring no one will notice.

  17. Joan Of Argghh says:

    I called her the “face of evil” before she was confirmed, and she’s upholding the assertion.

  18. geoffb says:

    The veiled threats begin.

    This court would not only have to stretch, it would have to abandon and completely overrule a lot of modern precedent, which would do grave damage to this court, in its credibility and power,” said Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D), a former attorney general of Connecticut. “The court commands no armies, it has no money; it depends for its power on its credibility. The only reason people obey it is because it has that credibility. And the court risks grave damage if it strikes down a statute of this magnitude and importance, and stretches so dramatically and drastically to do it.”

    Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) said the law has been thoroughly vetted.

    “As a senior member of the Finance Committee,” he said, “I can tell you that we had one of the most rigorous and transparent legislative processes that I have witnessed in almost 3 decades here in the Congress. We worked with some of the brightest, most thoughtful and experienced constitutional lawyers in order to make sure that the law was constitutional.”

  19. Jeff G. says:

    — Except Pelosi’s whole “we have to pass it to see what’s in it” thing, right, Sen Kerry?

    I mean, are you serious? Are you serious?

  20. Jeff G. says:

    By the way, geoff, look back to my post of yesterday or the day before about just words, with respect to the left and the courts.

    But those kinds of posts don’t get you invited to the cocktail parties, even on the right.

    So. OBAMA IS EVIL!!1!!eleventy!

  21. Squid says:

    …allows for the federal government to force individuals to enter into private contracts against their will…

    My youngest niece is 8 years old, and she’s obligated for $49,786 for good and services she never has and never will receive. The damage is already being done; the health care mandate is just piling on.

  22. Ernst Schreiber says:

    OBAMA IS A GOOD MAN IN OVER HEAD!!1eleventy!plusone!

    blogfight!
    blogfight!

  23. Silver Whistle says:

    “We worked with some of the brightest, most thoughtful and experienced constitutional lawyers in order to make sure that the law was constitutional.”

    Doesn’t the public deserve to know the names of these nebbishes? Or was it just the one rather lame conlaw assistant prof at U of C?

  24. Squid says:

    Doesn’t the public deserve to know the names of these nebbishes? Or was it just the one rather lame conlaw assistant prof at U of C?

    Seriously! Do the phrases “cite your sources” and “show your work” mean nothing to these people?

  25. Ernst Schreiber says:

    “We worked with some of the brightest, most thoughtful and experienced constitutional lawyers in order to make sure that the law was constitutional.”

    That reminds me of this gem Glenn Reynolds posted.

  26. geoffb says:

    I believe this is the post Jeff G. referred to above.

    I find the reference to “armies” by the Senator to be disturbing in this time of so much manufactured turmoil and the recent executive order signed.

  27. Caecus Caesar says:

    I look back into history, and I think if we look back into history we see sometimes Congress can create commerce out of nothing. That’s the national bank, which was created out of nothing to create other commerce out of nothing. I look back into history, and I see it seems pretty clear that if there are substantial effects on interstate commerce, Congress can act.

    And I look at the person who’s growing marijuana in her house, or I look at the farmer who is growing the wheat for home consumption. This seems to have more substantial effects.

    Is this commerce? Well, it seems to me more commerce than marijuana. I mean, is it, in fact, a regulation? Well, why not? If creating a bank is, why isn’t this?

    And then you say, ah, but one thing here out of all those things is different, and that is you’re making somebody do something.

    I say, hey, can’t Congress make people drive faster than 45 — 40 miles an hour on a road? Didn’t they make that man growing his own wheat go into the market and buy other wheat for his — for his cows? Didn’t they make Mrs. — if she married somebody who had marijuana in her basement, wouldn’t she have to go and get rid of it? Affirmative action?

    Spleef.

  28. mc4ever59 says:

    Geoffb at 12:32 pm;

    They don’t sound like veiled threats to me. More like ‘shaping the battlefield’. As in “since you have gone against us, we hereby revoke any authority you have- legal or constitutional- from here on out. Or at least for when you cross us again in the future”.
    So with that, they reduce SCOTUS to nothing more than a fancy debate club, and reduce their rulings and opinions to nothing more than an issue of ‘credibility’- however much, that is, that the left deems them worthy of having.
    Interesting choice of words, also. “The court commands no armies; it has no money. It depends for it’s power on it’s credibility”. Reminds me of Stalin, who when advised to beware of the Pope’s opinion and influence, replied- “this Pope you speak of. How many divisions does he have?”

  29. B Moe says:

    Obama has convinced a good chunk of Americans that raising the taxes on gasoline is a good way to punish the oil companies.

    You really think these folks are within a couple dozen IQ points of understanding any of this shit?

  30. leigh says:

    Meanwhile, China is snapping up oil reserves worldwide.

  31. Jeff G. says:

    Actually, geoff, it was this one. Specifically here:

    See? There’s that far-right extremist conservatism again, insisting that laws must be followed to the letter, and not simply be ignored to accommodate the spirit of “social justice”.

    They fetishize a document, and yet the care not for actually 26-year-old children forced (by choice) to live without health insurance! It’s an abomination. And I think it is the kind of decision, should this be the Court’s final ruling, that, like Citizens United before it, suggests that the Court can no longer be trusted to act compassionately, and can therefore be ignored.

    For the greater good.

    After all: the ruling is just words. And the only power they have, really, resides in our willingness to accept them and/or enforce them. But who says we have to do that…?

  32. McGehee says:

    You really think these folks are within a couple dozen IQ points of understanding any of this shit?

    They’re within a couple of dozen IQ points of a potted plant pot.

  33. Jeff G. says:

    Incidentally, the legislation was completed at the last moment and the vote rushed. Committee reviews were skipped. Kerry, as is his wont, is once again tossing his medals over the fence. Figuratively speaking.

  34. BigBangHunter says:

    Hey sKerry….

    – Any luck finding that DDS-180…..Don’t want to seem impatient, but it’s been 9 years since you said you’d produce same, and people are starting to voice doubts….just saying.

    Concerning SCOTUS-Left, (the 2012 edition)….. Apparently. once a person abandons all practical common sense considerations and communiticave rules, no limit exists to the depth of profound idiocies that besome possible. For the children!

  35. JHoward says:

    That is one hell of a post, especially the part that goes:

    The whole damn thing.

    And this sentiment isn’t run around at least the entirety of the right side of the national Press why?

    I mean, the evident fact that we are indeed one bad vote and one failed legislative session away from our very own USSA hasn’t produced but a damn peep of identical perspective from the legacy Press why exactly?!

  36. JHoward says:

    Meanwhile, China is snapping up oil reserves worldwide.

    A bigass case of convergence we’re living through, people. Shit just got real.

  37. JHoward says:

    OT but not OT: know why the stock market is at 13k? Because of all the monetary pumping via robo trading. Having decimated our manufacturing base and gone whole-hog FIRE economy in our race to a fifth of the wage we used to earn, we’re all but officially a nation of paper money traders.

    The market’s real level? Half that.

    Nobody’s going on earnings anymore – this is all one enormous shell game before the days of reckoning come.

    How do we keep the whole sorry mess going out on the streets? We print it and Barry’s USSA doles it out. Simple. Watch the national debt exploding.

    America, we have given up.

  38. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Conn Carroll concludes:

    Breyer mischaracterized the facts and holdings of every case he alluded to. If this is the quality of argument the liberals on the court are making to Justice Kennedy, the individual mandate is a goner.

    The more important question is, why isn’t Breyer?

  39. newrouter says:

    One trivial thought that I have not seen elsewhere: I wonder if the Left/Obama/Kathleen Sebelius didn’t shoot themselves in the backside when they decided to apply a chainsaw to the religious liberty of the Catholic hospitals, etc. That episode, I think, brought out in sharp relief the unprecedented degree of coercion inexorably inherent in Obamacare, the eagerness with which the Left employs it, and the thoughtlessness with which the Left is willing to destroy the institutions of civil society as they pursue their political goals. They really believe that people of religious faith are simpletons standing in the way of ever-greater individual dependence upon Leviathan. And so I have a sense — but no direct evidence — that Kennedy and perhaps Roberts may have recoiled in horror from the prospect of Obamacare more deeply than otherwise might have been the case, as they were confronted with the prospective wholesale descent into economic fascism that is the very essence of Obamacare.

    link

  40. Swen says:

    The court commands no armies, it has no money; it depends for its power on its credibility.

    Which, if the rest of the justices bore this in mind, they’d probably take Kagan aside and harsh words would be spoken.

    A question: Has anyone in Congress ever before suggested ignoring an inconvenient SCOTUS ruling? Where does that road lead?

  41. sdferr says:

    “The court commands no armies, it has no money; it depends for its power on its credibility.”

    Oh, I thought he intended us to hear an echo of Stalin as to the Pope.

  42. […] Protein Wisdom: they confuse and conflate having the money to dole out as a matter of procedure with owning the money and handing it out as a matter of largess.  And they are truly stunned when you aren’t terribly thankful for their enlightened decision to return some of your money to you. […]

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