BUMPED AND UPDATED: Joey Smith and I have now found at least four Democrat-friendly dealer groups, representing 40 (forty) Chrysler dealerships. These four groups will be left with 42 dealerships after the shuffling, while their in-market competition will be wiped out across the board. The odds of you losing net dealerships if you are a big Democrat contributor? Looks to be somewhere between slim and none. Taken at face value, it would appear that Democrat contributors and bigwigs were rewarded and their competitors punished.
American taxpayers, here is what your largesse is really about: rewarding party apparatchiks. You’ll never see a penny of what’s been sunk into Chrysler or GM, of course, but you’ll pay for this “investment.”
Josh Painter has a good overview and links, including to the spreadsheet that’s been laboriously constructed.
Yes, bondholders may well accept General Motors’ new proposed offer of 10 percent of a reorganized company and warrants to purchase another 15 percent. But that doesn’t change the topsy-turvy reality of unions being favoured over creditors.
Coming out of bankruptcy, the government could own 72.5 percent of the automaker, the United Auto Workers 17.5 percent and creditors 10 percent.
By favouring a political ally over the rule of law — in this case, the fundamental principles of contractual rights — the White House has created both a terrible precedent and enormous uncertainty (perhaps resulting in even higher interest rates for borrowers with worrisome debt loads) as the government continues to inject itself into the private sector.
Check out Part 2 of this interview.
Stacy McCain on Dealergate: “If I sound bitter about it, it’s because I am bitter about it.”
So, the Democrats were actually given an extra two dealerships at the end of the restructuring?
I’m glad this was done fairly and impartially and without partisan bitch-slapping, or this could look suspicious, and that’s not what Michelle Obama’s kids need right now.
I am a recently retired car dealer. A goodly percentage of car dealers are Republican(60 % according to a poll with NADA, our national association) probably more than that are conservative. The unions have controlled so much of dealer activity in the northeast that dealers have been cowed into submission. The actions of Obama and his appartchiks in this segment of our economy should come as no surprise to anyone. They are acting and doing as they said, redistributing wealth.
Just think how this would all go away in like a flash if the parties were reversed.
Thanks, Rick. Would you say that’s a sizable sector of the US economy that they’re handing out to supporters?
What’s hilarious is that “New Chrysler” is already shopping around for new dealerships in territories where existing dealers are targeted for closing. A trial balloon maybe, but does anyone want to wager who’ll get the “new” franchises?
It is good to have friends, isn’t it? Friends Of Obama. FOO for short.
JHoward-
Yeah and if elephants could fly you would be wearing a hard hat with side struts. A redestribution of wealth appeals to almost anybody that hasn’t already accumlilated some on their own or has no respect for how that wealth was made. Lawyers and Hollywood excepted.
Even before Nate Silver effectively discredited this stupid meme, it was pretty much obvious that most auto dealerships were owned by Republicans.
The belt matching the shoes is usually a dead giveaway.
Ah, and kmcc comes back for more public humiliation.
kmcc,
Nate Silver is not credible…
Sorry about that…
Note the technique here. It has already been discredited, therefore there is no need to discuss it further. No analysis of what evidence was presented, nor the methodology used to analyze that evidence. The conclusion has been reached; there is a consensus of right-thinking people, and only you knuckle-dragging RethugliKKKans still bitterly cling to your fantasies.
Sounds an awful like like Gorebal Warming, doesn’t it?
It has already been discredited, therefore there is no need to discuss it further.
Except, of course, for the need to make about 5,000 posts to continue “debunking” it.
Notice how these selfless Paladins of Truth spend just as much effort on, say, debunking the existence of pixies and cockatrices. Because they’re just truthy that way.
“So, the Democrats were actually given an extra two dealerships at the end of the restructuring?”
The “Democrats” also donated heavily to Republicans;!
DEBOER, SIDNEY B
ASHLAND,OR 97520 LITHIA MOTORS/PRESIDENT 11/4/08 $2,000 Smith, Gordon H (R)
DEBOER, SIDNEY B
ASHLAND,OR 97520 LITHIA MOTORS/PRESIDENT 11/4/08 $2,000 Smith, Gordon H (R)
DEBOER, SIDNEY B
ASHLAND,OR 97520 LITHIA MOTORS/PRESIDENT 8/13/07 $1,000 Smith, Gordon H (R)
DEBOER, SIDNEY B
ASHLAND,OR 97520 LITHIA MOTORS/PRESIDENT 8/22/05 $500 Smith, Gordon H (R)
Oh Noes! The phony narrative is in flames!
And for the privilege of donating to Hillary, he got two of his dealerships shut down.
Conspiracy!
At least you guys are making the Truthers look sane.
So there’s that.
Still time to go look for a job today, Gordo, especially at the fast food joints.
Daddy would be very happy. Trust me.
It’s political patronage until proven otherwise. The burden is on the government to prove it has neither asked for not taken on any level any kind of action based on the political leanings or contributions of any of the dealership groups.
As opposed to Rasmussen?
Nate seems to have accurately predicted a lot of things lately, despite his reliance on certain “sciency” methods that some would deem aggressively non-Christian.
As opposed to Rasmussen?
What does Rasmussen have to do with anything, liebot?
Gordon Smith isn’t a Republican he’s a twat. A scurrilous twat, really. Is he even still in office anymore? I think he’s not cause of the voters said go away, scurrilous twat. And go away he did.
“It’s political patronage until proven otherwise.”
Perfect. Just perfect.
Scratch a “conservative,” wound a fascist.
Good luck with that, Sarah.
If only we had a…I don’t know, say a nationwide organization of…inquisitive people who really like to dig below the…uh…headlines and attempt to find the truth with a skeptical zeal in learning more about issues and fervently holding the government to a genuinely high and noble standard.
Maybe we could carve out room in higher ed for the express purpose of tutoring these naturally curious types and put them to work in…say, a medium that sets itself apart from government propaganda and works as…say, arbiters of truth and judicious concern for the greater public’s need to know the whole story. Y’know to provide a check against goverment over-reach and provide a much needed backstop for citizens to monitor there governments. An unelected–what to call it?–some kind of estate, if you will.
Nah, too far-fetched.
“Nate seems to have accurately predicted a lot of things lately, despite his reliance on certain “sciency†methods that some would deem aggressively non-Christian.”
I know it’s only the end of May, but I nominate that swill as “Non sequitur Of The Year”.
Scratch a reationary leftist, find a fascist.
Scratch a “conservative,†wound a fascist.
Scratch poon, wound a lazy-assed useless piece of shit who hasn’t worked in years.
kmcc, if that is your name, it’s a very long trip from saying that most car dealers are Republicans (because, you know, Republicans are much more likely to be evil capitalists) and the detailed breakdown of the percentages of dealers shuttered.
In other news, 100% of the humans born between 1800 and 2000 who have ever consumed water will, at some point, die.
“Scratch a “conservative,†wound a fascist.”
Hey, I don’t have any reactionary leftists under my skin.
Does anyone here have a link to a Nate Silver takedown? His attitude is troll-like and his failure to distinguish between ratio of dollar contributions vs. ratio of contributors is suspect, but I doubt the result would have been different if he were more careful on this point.
I’m not defending him, but I haven’t seen a refutation of his apparently solid analysis.
Gee, that’s an original one. Poonstain isn’t even smart enough to come up with his own snark.
…despite his reliance on certain “sciency†methods that some would deem aggressively non-Christian.
These are the sort of “truths” one hides behind in order to prevent actually thinking about an issue. When confronted by this sort of rational thinking it’s best to point and laugh I think.
Hey!
Speaking of the dreaded Rasmussen…his Presidential Approval Index is at +10 for Obama today.
The highest it’s been since March.
Can’t you just feel that growing wave of disappointment with our leader welling up?
Never mind my earlier post. I just scrolled down and there is plenty here to work with. I haven’t read it yet, but it exists.
If Dear Leader is doing so damn well, poon, why are you here?
One would thing you’d have better use of your copious amount of free time to jack off to the Obama poster above your bed. What, gettin’ sore from the daily abuse and come here for more?
Still time to go look for a job today, Gordo, especially at the fast food joints.
Is this really Gordo? I can'[t tell these moonbats apart but it would make sense s9ince poon exhibits all the signs of someone who’d need a Filipina mail order bride.
“What, gettin’ sore from the daily abuse and come here for more?”
A masochist troll.
Shows up, gets abused, plays “yankee-my-wankee”.
Can’t you just feel that growing wave of disappointment
No, but I can feel your growing desperation to change the subject.
MickeyD’s is probably open until at least 10, PudgeO.
You’re obviously healthy enough to type on here all day long, so why aren’t you out getting a job?
Kelly,
O-bots are here at the behest of that card Joey B…
Remeber, during the election when he said [paraphrase]that things might not be going so great and they would need the help of all their supporters; to talk up the cause and keep people confident wit the O!ne..?
Quote:
“ ‘And he’s gonna need help. And the kind of help he’s gonna need is, he’s gonna need you – not financially to help him – we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.’”
Joe Biden,
Seattle Washington
September 20, 2008
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html
Yeah, as the information comes out it is becoming more clear that donations to Democrats were at least heavily weighed when deciding which dealership stayed open and which was closed. There are other factors I’m sure, but that surely looks to be the primary one.
Either that or it was totally random, and neither one is particularly smart or will look good to the public.
And I’m proud to say I voted against Gordon Smith in the election. He was one of the worst of the faux Republicans who campaigned as a conservative at home and voted as a leftist in office.
“it is becoming more clear that donations to Democrats were at least heavily weighed when deciding which dealership stayed open and which was closed.”
Never mind the fact that 80% of the dealers closed made no political contributions in the last 18 years, right, Chris?
When you’re in a hole…
Never mind the fact that 80% of the dealers closed made no political contributions in the last 18 years
Irrelevant, liebot, as has been pointed out to you numerous times.
You’re not even bothering to think up new lies now, are you?
Gosh, imagine that. This is great news…for Michael Dale “Mike” Huckabee.
Nate Silver is a sports statistician whose principal contribution to this discussion has been as in-depth as that of…well, poon.
No refutation is needed, or even possible.
I have the full list of the cancellations for Chrysler and have discussed this with friends with factory experience and the consensus at that level seems to be that many of the dealers that were cancelled fit into three basic groups, dealers that had been a pain in the ass to Chrysler because of an independent attitude, dealers that refused to become single point(would not give up another franchise), and dealers that had capitalization or profitabily problems. Given all of this there does seem to be a significant number of dealers cancelled that were Republican donors. The important thing to keep in mind here is that all of the dealers that were eliminated were small business employers, often in towns and communities where they were generational employers. Did they do well? Yes, but so did their employees and their contribution to the community was beyond the taxes they paid, which was significant.
The burden is on the one making the accusation.
He’s not in office any more. I live in Oregon, and he’s gone. Although I voted for him.
I’ve heard of those people. They call them… bloggers.
Gosh, imagine that.
Imagine what? You chiming in on the other lying douchebag’s desperate attempt to change the subject?
I’d be a little more concerned about the 18% DROP since my Personal Lord and Savior took office than daily fluctuations, myself.
But then I’m not a brilliant statistician like you and “poon”, am I?
From the link:
Item 5: Steven B. Fader contributed the individual maximum to Hillary Clinton for her 2008 campaign: $4,600. Fader is listed as owning four dealerships. Two of those dealerships are in Virginia Beach, VA: Hall Chrysler Jeep and Hall Dodge.
Untouched?
Then what about Auto Village Cadillac Jeep, owned by Fader and run by Jerry Fader that’s being shut down?
Close enough for hack work.
Let’s see…
Nate Silver is a sport statistician that fancies himself an analytic jeen-yus…
Kieth Olbermann is a sportscaster that fancies himself the reincarnation of Edward R. Murrow…
Both have appeared on Kos…
Maybe someone can calculate the correlation coefficient involved here…
If Chrysler or The Won has some kind of methodology or criteria regarding the closure of these dealerships , release it . When the same thing happens with GM on a much larger scale ……………..
poon, just because you managed to convince your Dad that you’re eventually going to get a job, and managed to convince TrannyCrazyo that you were a rich American doesn’t mean that you’re going to convince anybody here.
What, you think we’re all going to suddenly see the light and acknowledge the Brilliance that is Gordo?
Snicker.
Again, why engage the liebots? They’re not worth the effort. They’re not even honest enough to be classified as liars — they simply do not care about the truth.
Consider yourself lucky. Many marginal holders–or the “fish” as I like to call them–took much deeper hits even before Bush left office.
Never forget that, or the fact the AIG bailout was initiated and concluded under the watch of a Republican president.
even before Bush left office.
Back to obsessing on BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH, I see.
Snicker.
How about you? Do you have a job? Have you ever had one?
“Never forget that, or the fact the AIG bailout was initiated and concluded under the watch of a Republican president.”
Yes, some of us noticed that and were infuriated by it. Try not to think in terms of democrats=good/republicans=bad. Statists suck. That’s the point.
Friends
Of
Obama
Barack’s
Alliance for
Redistribution
h/t Joe
Yeah I know it’s FU.
Shorter kfc – BOOOOOOOOOOSH !!!
Shorter poon – Nate Silver rocks. We conservatives are Teh SuxXor.
Shorter leftist – Look at the international polls !!!
“I’ve heard of those people. They call them… bloggers.”
Nothing gets by this one. Ecce Homo!
I don’t know why you guys are so worried about all these car dealers, hell by the time I get through with these fuckers they are going to be selling their cars at Big Lots.
We’re all Chicago now.
Is it true that ketchup on a hotdog with out mustard is verbooten in Chicago? If so, I want out.
Even I’m having trouble believing that Sotomayor’s going to make it through the confirmation. You just can’t go around saying things like this:
I have to think about people in my own family who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account.
PPOR.
i’m thinking O! reeducation camps franchises are going to be big
So people who didn’t donate to Obama were closed at a high rate, and people who did, weren’t? Wow, thanks for the support and reinforcement of my point.
Who gives a shit about international poles? Dirty dipshit international socialists, that’s who.
58
But will that be reported outside a couple blogs?
I was looking at hotels in Chicago last night. One had this, in addition to paying for your room they charge $18.50 for a parking space for your car and then $3.50 tax on that $18.50. 19% tax on parking. It’s the new way.
Geoffb – That is pretty cheap parking for the city.
OK, but one a couple miles away outside the limits is as normal, free. $22.00 per day is a bit much for parking. I’d sleep in the car forget the room.
First the claim that a donation to Hillary Clinton got a dealership closed:
Consider the partial list of Chrysler dealership owners, listed below. You’ll notice that all were opponents of Barack Obama, most through sponsorship of GOP candidates and organizations, but a handful through Barack’s Democrat rivals (Hillary Clinton and John Edwards in 2008, for example).
• Robert Carver: $10,000 to Democrats including $1,950 to Hillary Clinton, nothing to Barack Obama.
Four days later, a claim from the same source (link in original post)that a donation to Hillary Clinton saved a dealership!
Item 3: Democratic donor Sidney Deboer is Chairman of Lithia Motors. He donated over $14,000 to Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY). Lithia Motors lost only two of its 29 dealerships while gaining as many as five additional ones in the resulting carnage. Deboer was also insulated from Chrysler’s closings.
Foolish consistency, etc. etc. etc.
that McCain piece is really worth a read. He is a valuable voice what is unique and also he is better than a lot of bloggers on the right what get more clicks, which is not salutary.
Yes, poon, you have established yourself as the King of Consistent Folly, I would say.
I’d bet Mr Other McCain would enjoy listening to that Mencken interview.
Foolish consistency, etc. etc. etc.
Well, you’re certainly consistent at reposting the same discredited bullshit, poon.
Too bad you’re not as consistent about seeking and retaining gainful employment, eh?
Remember, poon: “Barack will require you to work.”
“His choice of a source for donor information, however, was not the non-partisan, independent and non-profit OpenSecrets.org, but the partisan and very biased Huffington Post. ”
Is there some problem with the huffpo voter contribution database that this guy is crying about?
No problem. HuffPo is a fountain on non-asshattery non-partisanship, and overall grace, meya.
Fountain of, not on.
enemies list
I don’t trust HuffPo not to doctor the data…
If you trust their summaries, so be it…
But then, you also trust O! too…
Birds of a feather, and all…
#77
You don’t expect him to keep his campaign promises either, huh?
#55- Kelly, did you call Sammy a homo? Tsk,tsk.
Meya,
I don’t tust information disseminated by HuffPo-period…
And random sample of 50 out of much larger control groups do not provide one-to-one correlations either…
Regardless of the dealers proponderant contributions history, it still is fishy that large Democrat supporters disproportionately seem to have benefitted by what was purported to be an objective calculus…
Waving the Fox news red-hering doesn’t change the fact that something rotten is involved in all this…
But don’t worry; it will all come out eventually…
And when it does, it certainly won’t be good timing for the O!ne…
with all due respect
It’s incomplete. Add to that, that the way the FEC handles their raw data makes any search of it a complete crapshoot.
“I don’t tust information disseminated by HuffPo-period…”
So we have no idea what the population of auto dealers contribute like. Ok. Great. Because huffpo might be manipulating the publicly available database it is replicating on its website. Great stuff.
“And random sample of 50 out of much larger control groups do not provide one-to-one correlations either…”
It was actually 50 from one group and 50 from another. 100 out of the 3200 dealers.
“Regardless of the dealers proponderant contributions history, it still is fishy that large Democrat supporters disproportionately seem to have benefitted by what was purported to be an objective calculus…”
But how do we know it was disproportionate if we can’t trust the population numbers?
“But don’t worry; it will all come out eventually…”
And i’ve even linked to a guide to FOIA to help y’all along. Or you could tabulate the data on dealers from opensecrets.org because apparantly huffpo uses liberal math to add up the numbers.
This HuffandBlow BS from meya is a red herring, as is the FauxNews BS. There are complete listings available, we do not need to do random samples. Look! Over there! A dishonest twat.
But this quite nicely exemplifies how this meya thing likes to pull on a tiny not relevant detail and avoid talking about the actual topic.
Parsing my words doesn’t automatically make you right by default, Meya…
Indeed, in one sentance that you chose to “interpret” I was granting your point that more dealers donated to RethugliKKKans than to the Dems…
In fact, in view of the lovely Saturday here on Long Island, I’ll let you have the last word, and convince yourself of your metaphysical certitude
They don’t have to manipulate it. Its simply not all there.
Auto dealer is not the relevant metric. Chrysler dealers is the relvant one, but don’t let that get in the way of your asshattery.
There is a complete list of the actual involved dealers, you douchebag. That you either are playing stupid or are stupid and unaware is up for debate. One of my neighbors is an auto dealer. He does not have a Chrysler license, nor does he sell new cars. How are his contributions relevant? Never mind, meya wants everyone to look everywhere else except at the actual dealers involved. HuffandBlow and all auto dealers are the designated distractions, apparently.
“There is a complete list of the actual involved dealers, you douchebag. ”
When I said numbers, I meant their donations. Obviously what Nate was doing was an attempt at finding easily available data to make statements auto dealers in general, with the caveat that these likely won’t differ from chrysler ones. Does anyone have the total universe of donations for these 3200 dealers?
“How are his contributions relevant?”
Because we are assuming that the politics of this dealer won’t differ just because he sells chryslers or new cars. And therefore we can use easier to find numbers to make quick estimates about what is going on. Similar to people who find one set of democrat donors getting a good deal are using the numbers available to them to make their arguments. Well, not so similar because we can’t just extrapolate from that latter example.
Again, SFAG: what do you think you’re accomplishing here?
You really should schedule a visit with a competent mental health professional, I think.
Intentionally dishonest, or aggressively stupid?
I’m actually starting to think she has some form of mental illness, JD.
I mean, SURELY she doesn’t think that we’re all going to suddenly see the light, ignore her history as a serial liar, and acknowledge the Genius of SFAG, does she?
You can stop there.
Both.
And your methodolgy is flawed anyway. No one has to include employer or job description in the reported information.
If you are serious about this, you must download all the reports from the FEC, AND you’ll have to know all the names and addresses of all the parties that might have contributed. Who will you include? Only the owners of the dealerships? The employees? The receptionists? General managers?
And donations less than $200 don’t have to be reported. Anyone making lots of small donations still won’t make it to your research. You can’t find my name in any of those reports and I gave more in the last election than I ever have.
“auto dealer” also leaves out “car dealer”, “automotive salesperson”, “dealership owner”….
The FEC has no standard for reporting that data.
Here’s a test.
Using either source, tell me how much and to which candidate Ross Perot gave a reportable contribution to in the last presidential election.
If you do find it, you’ll be able to spot another reason why the databases aren’t much help and why the research has to be done by hand.
I guess it is impossible.
You wish, SFAG.
And I was demonstrating the flaws in the method used by you to do so (and probaly the method used by Silver).
I havent’ go teh time or the inclination to go by all those reports by hand–the only objective way to do it–not least because I don’t have teh names of all the parties, and I don’t know who should be considered a party. Then there’s the fact that, thanks to the dirty socialist hungarian muppet, I’m looking for a new job, which puts a crunch on time.
Far from impossible. Just not a simple search somewhere. And it’s going to be subject to a large number of assumptions whichyou’ll have to be up front about (which Silver did and you seem to be unaware of).
A strategy that might narrow things down is to allok at any closings that don’t line up with the stated criteia as a subset.
What I mean is, the statemetn has been made that Chrysler prefered to close dealerships that didn’t carry all four lines. Were there any four-line dealers that were closed? Of those, were they profitable–another stated criteria?
Take any left (and if that number is zero it might be a good, but not dispositive, indication that things really are kosher) determine the names (all variations) of the owners and look them up (but in the FEC originals, not the incomplete gimick sites).
Less work. Still a lot of work. Still doens’t account for small donations.
RTO – Simple fact is that Silver, and meya, are hell-bent on looking anything except the actual dealers involved in this.
#44 @poon –
Item 5: Steven B. Fader contributed the individual maximum to Hillary Clinton for her 2008 campaign: $4,600. Fader is listed as owning four dealerships. Two of those dealerships are in Virginia Beach, VA: Hall Chrysler Jeep and Hall Dodge.
Untouched?
Then what about Auto Village Cadillac Jeep, owned by Fader and run by Jerry Fader that’s being shut down?
False: Jerome Fader is listed as the owner of the dealership, not Steve Fader.
Jerome split his contributions between the GOP and Democrats unlike Steve. Steve was just a heavy Democrat contributor. Jerome lost one dealership and kept one (Heritage Dodge in Maryland); furthermore, his competition was nicely cleansed in his local area.
The latest details are here in case you’re interested:
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/daily-dealergate-chryslers-dealer.html
I wonder what a ‘green’ Jeep will look like?
No more four wheel drive I bet.