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The Dumbing Down of the Presidency [Karl]

Washington Post columnist David Broder reports on Elvin T. Lim’s new book, The Anti-Intellectual Presidency, which documents the decline in logical argument in presidential speeches, not only from intervews with former presidential speechwriters, but also from a statistical analysis of the speeches themselves:

In what must have been a heroic effort, he applied standard techniques of content analysis to state papers of every president from Washington to the second Bush. His tool is something called the Flesch readability score — a measure of the average number of words per sentence and the average number of syllables per word. The higher the Flesch score, the simpler to get the meaning.

Applied to the annual State of the Union addresses, the average score has doubled from the first few presidents to the last few. Those “messages were pitched at a college level through most of the 18th and 19th centuries,” Lim says. “They have now come down to an eighth-grade reading level.” The same trend, but more pronounced, is found in inaugural addresses. Their average sentence length has dropped from 60 words to 20.

***

But the problem Lim sees is more than dumbing down. “As presidents have taken the rhetorical path of least resistance by serving up simplistic sentences to citizens, they have correspondingly offered an easily digestible substantive menu devoid of argument and infused with inspirational platitudes, partisan punch lines and emotional and human-interest appeals.”

There is a brand of blathering fool who will consider the Oprahfication of politics and the ability to intone “Hope” and “Change” from a TelePrompTer as the ne plus ultra of political evolution instead of pablum for the flower-pot hat crowd.  Of course, the same sort of fool will dismiss Broder on ageist grounds.  Their motto could be, “Never trust anyone older than Barack Obama.”

117 Replies to “The Dumbing Down of the Presidency [Karl]”

  1. Challeron says:

    Maybe the Presidential speeches are being dumbed down to match the quality of education of the typical voter….

  2. ccoffer says:

    It would be verboten for Broder to analyze the intelligence of the average “reporter” over a similar time period. I’m only 40 years old, but I have seen the news business get dumber every day of my life.

  3. Lee says:

    Aahhh, whaaat?

  4. Thomass says:

    also worth a mention, conservatives have longed claimed that society is being dumbed down by the public education system… re: the example of the civil war letter being so much better and all that than what an average person could write today… This just falls into that point…

  5. Thomass says:

    PS
    I see all those errors. Should have double checked before posting….

  6. Mikey NTH says:

    One of the things we are encouraged to do, as lawyers, is to make our briefs as comprehensible as possible. Use the active voice, use shorter sentences, do not use flamboyant language. Keep it crisp, clean, and conprehensible. It isn’t necessarily a dumbing down, it is making it easy for the reader to understand what the issues are and what you are arguing for the court to do and why. I am not saying that precise speech is being discouraged; far from it. The idea is to guard against losing the point in a flow of pretty phrases. The greatest American political speech is the Gettysburg Address, and it is very brief, and the sentences are short. The language seems complicated for today, but in its time it wasn’t. A word like ‘score’ was still widely understood to be twenty, and other phrases Lincoln used were known for their Biblical connotations.

    I think there has to be some acknowledgment that the florid language found in earlier speeches is to be seen in light of the culture of the time and in the nature of the politcal parties and the extent of the franchise. And, IIRC, an eighth grade reading level is the level that most newspapers aim for, being a reliable level that most of the population can access. It doesn’t surprise me that political speeches have found themselves at the same level.

  7. Karl says:

    All good points so far. And all reflective of a very regressive reality.

  8. Karl says:

    …and Mikey, Broder makes part of your point in his full column. But Lim notes that we’re not only “keeping it simple,” we’re turning it into nothing but pretty phrases.

  9. sashal says:

    I do not have anything to add up to this discussion besides the point that I largely agree, and it is 8 p.m. here and I imbued some strong ingredients to help the functioning of the heart( You guys take note-alcohol is good for the blood circulation).
    On the other hand Broder is contemptible individual, who is partially responsible for the misunderstanding of the foreign issues most Americans have very little knowledge of

  10. Rick Ballard says:

    “I imbued some strong ingredients”

    Did you achieve the significance which you desired?

  11. sashal says:

    for that, Rick, I do not need additional artificial help

  12. Sdferr says:

    “…the extent of the franchise…”

    So the audience changed (frequently) over time, growing broader and as with the 17th Amendment, considerably less sophisticated.

    Of course too, time was, ‘The Fool’ (see Lear) was smart and funny. Now it’s rather more annoying than not.

  13. Ric Locke says:

    Like Mikey I am less than impressed by the arguments, nor am I worried about the trend.

    We have, over the years, both extended the franchise from a relative minority (“responsible property owners”) to almost everyone. In the process we have inevitably included people of lesser educational (and, perhaps, intellectual) attainments. This we regard as generally a good thing; why is it wrong to pitch newpaper prose or political speeches so as to be more generally understood?

    As a lesser effect, there is also the matter of style. It used to be fashionable to make speeches using words, structure, and rhetorical effects far from those of the vernacular; a speaker who could employ such constructs was highly regarded even if the audience didn’t fully understand what he said. That fashion appears to have gone out of style, and I for one don’t miss it.

    Regards,
    Ric

  14. Darleen says:

    And, IIRC, an eighth grade reading level is the level that most newspapers aim for, being a reliable level that most of the population can access

    Which decade’s 8th grade are we using now?

    100 years ago 8th grade might be all the education you got. It didn’t make you “dumb” or “ignorant”, it only meant your parents probably couldn’t afford for you to go to high school.

    So teachers of the day crammed a whole lot of learning into those 8 years.

    I’ve had occassion to look at my late grandfather’s school text books (he was born in 1901). I’d say they are the equivalent of a modern 11th or 12th grade education.

    His mother was a widow who ran a boarding house. He dropped out of school after the 8th grade and with a couple of friends worked their way across country from PA to CA. He was successful in his career and one of the most knowledgable men in history that I knew (one of his passions).

    There’s ‘book learning’, then there’s intelligence. They don’t always go hand in hand.

  15. Yeah the whole world is getting dumber, Idiocracy isn’t a satire, it’s prophecy. I used to be really impressed with guys in high office, figuring they got a better education than I had. As I get older I see that they got just as crappy an education as I did, mine was so lacking I had to teach myself through ravenous reading and study on the side. Those judges that make stupid decisions and use lousy logic? They are just like the doofus sitting in class next to you, just with a nice robe.

  16. dre says:

    Dumb people make us smarter. Go axs de bro’s in de ‘hood.

  17. Mikey NTH says:

    Karl, pretty phrases has always been a part of politics, and with even more media to transmit poltical messages then there will be more messages, and with more messages there will be more chaff than wheat, for the wheat is always rare. Perhaps the authors of the study should expand to major political speeches, because the federal gorvernment wasn’t a big factor until the Great Depression. The president wasn’t expected to be a great orator. Washington is an outlier because the Republic literally hung on what he would do, he blazed the trail. State of the Union addresses outside of a major war weren’t big affairs because the federal government didn’t do much day to day to affect a citizen’s life. When you had a great orator in the Oval Office, then there would be a shift.

    Franklin Roosevelt set the mold for the modern presidency in oration – he was superb! just like Franklin Roosevelt set the course for the modern bureaucratic presidency, for its great impact in the life of every American. If nothing else, federal labor laws would be enough

    At Gettysburg, the keynote speaker was Edward Everett, not President Abrham Lincoln. The Gettysburg Address gained its fame over time as it was repeated. It was so short it could be transmitted easily over telegraph; it could be reprinted in its entirety in a newspaper; it could be read, mulled over, and read again and again in a single day. Short and simple, in concepts the bulk of the public would understand. That is not dumbing down, that is effective communication.

    To give another example Lincoln’s intended audience would understand – Christ’s parables. They are in simple language, using simple subjects that the audience would simply understand, breaking complex ideas down and transmitting them clearly.

    St. Paul spoke clearly and clearly on the subject of love in Corinthians 1:13

    If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.

    And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

    If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,

    it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

    it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

    It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

    For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

    but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

    When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

    At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

    So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    Simple, clear, comprehensible language in the hands of a great orator.

  18. thor says:

    What you accuse Obama of, Karl, is the one and only thing you’ve recently accomplished here on PW.

    Obama is qualified to lead this country, to be commander and chief and to speak for our great nation.

    You can disagree with me, of course, but you can also drop and suck me dry.

    Be it McCain, be it Barack Obama, either are good candidates/men/Americans who’ll serve this country well.

  19. Mikey NTH says:

    And as Ric Locke stated about rhetorical styles, I note that I mentioned Edward Everett versus Abraham Lincoln. Everett spoke in the accepted style; Lincoln didn’t. Yet IIRC, Everett congratulated Lincoln on his speech, that he said more in twenty minutes than he (Everett) said in two hours.

    Which speech is remembered?

    To note another great orator, Winston Churchill’s greatest speeches were the ones that went to the simple heart of the matter. Brevity is the soul of wit – and great oration.

  20. ahem says:

    Ric:

    Your points are true as far as they go, but there is a flip side. While simplification of language can elucidate ideas, it can also reduce them to blunt objects in the cause of tyranny:

    “‘Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?… Has it ever occurred to your, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now?'”

  21. bour3 says:

    Flowerpot hat crowd! I love that. I’m taking it, if you don’t mind.

    Of course Broder is right. Haven’t you noticed how severely Jeopardy! has been dumbed down and how NYT crossword has become indistinguishable from one out of TV Guide? But having said that, it’s not fair to start counting up words from the days when only presumably well-educated land-owing males voted and compare them with the speeches designed to reach a much MUCH broader audience, even so far as the MTV Get-Out-the-Vote crowd who hasn’t managed yet to get out of their own parents basements, and speeches designed to reach millions of immigrants for whom English is their second or perhaps third language. So I have to conclude, no matter how valiant the effort, Broder’s study was flawed fatally from the start. FAIL! I dare say, on the whole, we’re smarter, better and more broadly educated and more thoroughly informed voters than ever. In fact, it’s rather hard to avoid, innit?

    You know, Whip It wasn’t Devo’s only hit. Hasn’t the writer ever heard Working in the Coal Mine, and It’s a Beautiful World, to name two? I love those loons.

  22. bour3 says:

    My keyboard tends to drop n.

  23. Mikey NTH says:

    #14 – Darleen.

    Mid-twentieth century eighth grade level. The style books and Strunk and White are set for that, and are still the key texts for clear, accesible prose. Short sentences, active voice. Use a simpler word rather than a more complicated word if possible.

    And doing what Messrs. Strunk and White teach, as well as what Brian Garner (and Antonin Scalia) advocates, is very difficult. Clarity is hard work. My drafts and re-drafts of briefs prove that by the bloody pen strokes they bear. However, the end-result is well-worth the work and bruised ego.

  24. N. O'Brain says:

    Comment by thor on 6/29 @ 7:12 pm #

    If you get an erection lasting for more than four hours, seek immediate medical help.

  25. thor says:

    If you get lockjaw, suffer.

  26. Mikey NTH says:

    #15 Christopher Taylor –
    If you read the biographies of great writers and orators you will find (as I did) that they read everything they could, that they didn’t stop learning, they did not cease trying to be better in employing words. They applied themselves beyond what the classroom demanded. They are outliers because they concentrated beyond their contemporaries, beyond familiarization to mastery. Many people do the same today. I have not ceased learning with the end of my formal education. I am not alone in that.

  27. Mikey NTH says:

    ahem: language can be used to illuminate, make meaning clear. It can also be used to hide meaning. It isn’t the tool, but the artisan that matters. It is intent.

    Lincoln used simple language aimed at his audience to make the great issues clear to them. Churchill at his finest did the same. The rifle can be used to oppress and it can be used to liberate – it is the intent that matters.

  28. N. O'Brain says:

    Comment by thor on 6/29 @ 7:26 pm #

    You sound cranky.

    Kneepads wearing out?

  29. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “You can disagree with me, of course, but you can also drop and suck me dry.”

    – thor, you were sucked dry in the cranial pan a long time ago. As a direct result you’re too brain dead to notice.

    “If you get an erection lasting for more than four hours, seek immediate medical help.

    – In the event such a miracle would happen for you thor, I’d recommend you forget the medico, and get it bronzed. In your case it would be a once in a life time opportunity.

  30. Slartibartfast says:

    thor, I don’t think Karl swings your way much, even if you swing his way a lot.

  31. happyfeet says:

    There are only so many ways to say goddamn Democrats won’t let us drill no oil.

  32. thor says:

    “It all begins and ends in the street.” Celine

    “Headlong walkers are born every minute. Do I plug it in or do I stick it in it?” Gordie-baby The man. The Legend. The Gold Posada.

    O!

  33. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Hang in there feets. A few more weeks of this situation and the train wreck will be amazing.

  34. happyfeet says:

    You’d think, BBH.

  35. ProggressiveHero says:

    You do realize we are all in that train BBH?

  36. Mikey NTH says:

    thor’s act is getting stale. He needs new material.

    BTW – the christening went as normal with the christened getting cranky and squalling to beat all. The Canadians arrived Friday night and damage was recorded all around. The reception was well-attended by friends and family. Tomorrow I go to mom and dad’s to see the bulk of those present over the next week.

    My brother’s Colombian mother-in-law likes the convertible and the summer tunes (early sixties – Beach Boys prominent). End report.

  37. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – O! it’s a’comin feets. The Dummycrats are nothing if not ideologically stubborn to distraction. And when it hits its going to be butt-crack ugly, and the Obamatons are going to be scurrying around looking for political cover like cockroaches homing in on the cracks under the sink when you flip on a light.

  38. happyfeet says:

    Families christening babies. That’s about as good as it gets really. But I’m glad it’s not every weekend or anything.

  39. happyfeet says:

    BBH, I hope so, but the media seems hellbent on having a good old fashioned hanging with these “speculator” people. People who believe in O! will a lot swear they saw an evil speculator down by the old creek bridge just this morning.

  40. Rick Ballard says:

    BBH- Ad for next week

    Democrats take the majority in Congress – 11/06/06 – Gas Price – $2.20

    After completing two legislative sessions under Dem control – 06/23/08- Gas Price $4.08.

    The Dems promised change in ’06 and your bank balance screams that they delivered – can you afford the additional change promised by the Chicago Marxist?

  41. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by happyfeet on 6/29 @ 7:57 pm #

    Families christening babies. That’s about as good as it gets really”

    Except if you get a senile priest who keeps forgetting where he is in the ceremony. Which is what we sufferd a couple of weeks ago.

    And since it was twins, he had twice the opportunity.

  42. cynn says:

    I suspect Karl’s (and Broder’s, but I couldn’t access the link for some reason) point is that Obama is guilty of empty rhetoric with all the hope and change. I would argue that Obama’s gun is loaded with some potent ammo, and the gut reactions you have had to it are significant proof. As strange as it seems, I don’t think American voters respond well to arduous, detail-heavy policy pronouncements, even though that may be what they should consider. What we want is emotional appeal and theater. And I agree with previous comments that suggest this is not a new thing; hardly “regressive.”

  43. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    I would argue that Obama’s gun is loaded with some potent ammo

    Such as?

    Be specific.

    What is Obama going to do?

  44. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – This time is different feets. All the Marxist propaganda in the world doesn’t hold a candle to the reality of two trips a week to the gas station where every driver feels like he or she just got raped without even getting dinner and a movie.

    – Its right there “in your face”. Only a matter of time before tempers boil over. Any media blitz thats going on, trying to cover the Dems asses, isn’t working. Todays polls are up to 83& for drilling, and even more telling, we just flipped into “fuck the caribou” land, with 56% now saying drill in ANWAR.

    – Another few weeks and the Dembulbs in Congress will need armed body guards. If I was an Obama-loon, I’d be looking for shelter. When the patience of the majority of Americans runs out, the Dems and Obama are going to need more than 8th grade level speeches to bail out of this one.

  45. ProggressiveHero says:

    Obama will nominate 2 SC judges that will vote along the lines of Souter and Ginsburg. Obama will raise taxes on the rich. Obama will propose legislation for nationalized healthcare and Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

    Basically the death of conservatism as a viable political entity.

  46. happyfeet says:

    NPR just this afternoon.

    As gas prices continue to rise, lawmakers have been getting an earful about it from their constituents. Members of Congress are anxious to show their concern so they have begun to investigate oil speculators. NPR’s Scott Horsley speaks with host Andrea Seabrook.

    Notice how they interview each other for stories like these.

  47. ProggressiveHero says:

    Let me check that up to 4 judges he might get nominations for if he wins two terms. So basically that ruling on the 2nd the other week, well kiss that one goodbye.

  48. cynn says:

    Spies, etc: He hasn’t really said what he is going to do. He is establishing the mood that accepts what he does. Smart and appropriate, I think.

  49. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – ProgHorn. Every time you type something you show your youthful ignorance.

    – You’re counting your chickens junior. Your golden boy hasn’t even locked up the nomination yet, or did you overlook that small inconvenient fact.

    – Your memes look like the sort of thing a Lefty chants to themselves while they masturbate in the basement behind the washing machine.

  50. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “He is establishing the mood that accepts what he does.

    – Treating all those G-d bothering gun and bible clingers like a true elitist would at a baptist tent revival.

    – Neither smart, nor appropriate, as you and he will soon discover.

  51. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by cynn on 6/29 @ 8:21 pm #

    Spies, etc: He hasn’t really said what he is going to do. He is establishing the mood that accepts what he does. Smart and appropriate, I think.”

    No, a small bore, Chicago machine empty suit.

    Although he HAS promised to raise tasxes.

    Oh.

    And to raise taxes.

  52. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by ProggressiveHero on 6/29 @ 8:16 pm #

    Obama will nominate 2 SC judges that will vote along the lines of Souter and Ginsburg. Obama will raise taxes on the rich. Obama will propose legislation for nationalized healthcare and Comprehensive Immigration Reform.”

    Oh, and raise taxes.

  53. ProggressiveHero says:

    The dryer BBH, the sound of it turning masks the sounds of my quiet moaning.

  54. N. O'Brain says:

    Socialist health care: a ten month wait for a maternity ward.

  55. N. O'Brain says:

    “The dryer BBH, the sound of it turning masks the sounds of my quiet moaning.”

    And the socks are warm. Another plus for ReactionaryZero.

  56. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    He hasn’t really said what he is going to do.

    And, of course, you’re perfectly fine with this. Because of the hope. And the change.

    Hint: you’re in a cult.

  57. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – And ProgMire, when one of his financial advisor’s was asked where the tax raises would have to start in order to fund the 2 trillion all his fantasies would cost he pegged the tax increase would start at 36,800. Apparently the definition of “rich” keeps pace with the projected cost of his programs.

    – So if you add the tax hikes across the board for everyone if Obama is elected and immediately removes Bush’s tax cuts, and then add in tax increases across the board all the way down to 36,880 income, American taxes will be at a record all time high.

    – That would really make things better in view of oil prices.

    Change you can grieve over – O!

  58. The Lost Dog says:

    I’m not sure that “dumbimg down” quite covers it.

    I think that “dangerously stupid” might be more to the point.

  59. Karl says:

    Oration is just dandy. Reagan was a good orator. But he generally put his oratory in the service of arguing for his positions. Obama (and to some but lesser extent) McCain talk about vacuous, empty fantasies. In particular, the fantasy that somehow “special interests” will cease to have influence in the next four years.

    Indeed, to PH I say that the left is already making excuses for why their rhetoric on Iraq, healthcare and taxes probably isn’t going to happen, even if Obama wins. Moreover, as I’ve noted repeatedly, we have a history of ineffective “change” presidents — JFK, Carter and Clinton. And it’s amusing that people talk about Obama’s issues when he changes his positions daily now.

    To those who say some of the dumbing down is due to the culture, I already agreed with you in my first comment. Nor did I suggest it’s something new. Obviously, Lim couldn’t do a 200 year study if it was a new phenomenon. Here’s a bit more from Broder:

    Applied to the annual State of the Union addresses, the average score has doubled from the first few presidents to the last few. Those “messages were pitched at a college level through most of the 18th and 19th centuries,” Lim says. “They have now come down to an eighth-grade reading level.” The same trend, but more pronounced, is found in inaugural addresses. Their average sentence length has dropped from 60 words to 20.

    Simplification has its advantages, if it serves to increase public comprehension. But it comes with a huge risk: The complexity of real-world choices can be, and often is, lost.

    And thor sounds cranky precisely because he is one of the blathering fools I mention in the post. Please note: he never has much of substance to say either, just a lot of empty talk, just like his idol.

  60. cynn says:

    I don’t think you reflexive righties get the deal. You think you’re sitting here in your red stronghold smacking down dissonant voices. Fine, wave away. I am not necessarily an Obama supporter. Please re-read what I said. Obama is a conductor, and you are just playing your instruments.

  61. Mikey NTH says:

    #38 feets – I am happy it doesn’t happen every weekend either, else I would need a good dose of drying-out. The Colombians can party, as can the Canadians. Oh well, Allison Grace has been properly launched, all decked out in her little white brocade dress and bonnet, her mother in a nice dress and her father in his dress army blues. (Note – one of his friends was there with his eight kids – talk about Catholic!) It was so nice to be in Dearborn again, in the old neighborhood, to see the immaculate houses with flowers everywhere, and the big trees still arching over the streets. As I get older I appreciate those beautiful neighborhoods more than I did as a kid.

    It all went well.

  62. McGehee says:

    Obama is a conductor, and you are just playing your instruments.

    Well, gawrsh! He’s jest too dang smart fer us!

  63. Karl says:

    cynn,

    I’ve studied this piece of music before, as noted: JFK, Carter, Clinton. It always ends badly for the people who buy tickets.

  64. Karl says:

    Although Obama, with his proximity to Gary, IN, does resemble a young Harold Hill.

  65. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    I don’t think you reflexive righties get the deal.

    I’m not the one voting for someone who has no definable positions whatsoever, cynn.

    You think you’re sitting here in your red stronghold smacking down dissonant voices.

    I’m sure that sentence made sense in your head when you wrote it, but I’ll be fucked if I can imagine what it might’ve been.

    Hint: I’m not a “rightie”.

  66. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – If the gaffe in SF, and his hourly/daily changiness is any indication, he really doesn’t know the territory.

  67. cynn says:

    McGee: Can you just get past your kneejerk oppo stance for once and consider expanding your stunted consciousness? I am not talking about relative intelligence, although you guys make the facile assumption that the modern commoners are the stoopid because they don’t get your agenda.

    No, I’m just saying that gut-punching sound bites are de rigeur for effective political campaigns. And Obama gets results. Good? Bad? Depends on how he plays it.

  68. Mikey NTH says:

    #59 – Karl

    I still stand by what I wrote. The subject matter is small compared to the vast changes that happened over that time. The extension of the franchise; the change in speaking styles; the industrial revolution. It is comparing a Ford Model T to a Fairlane to a Taurus. Each is a family car, but compared to each other – wow! The audience the speech is addressed to changed, the media environment changed.

    You can compare high school students from 1900 to those from 2000, but you absolutley must factor in that very few went to high school in 1900; compare what was the definition of literacy in 1900 with that from 2000. The problem is that there is no control level to work from to even everything out. High schools used to offer Latin, they don’t now (as an example).

    The fact that a speech was given in a certain style once does not actually reflect on the comprehension of the audience until you know what audience it is aimed at and what they were expected to learn at that time.

    Educational focus on Latin and Greek and classical myths does not mean those students were smarter or better educated than those students who do not study those subjects. It reflects a different focus at a different time; that’s all. And my great-granfather was Superintendent of the Detroit Public Schools in 1900 (his name was Wales Martindale), and he advocated setting up vocational programs for students, because not everyone needed to learn Latin. He did a number of trips to Germany to study their schools as they were bleeding edge back then.

    I am not seeing the controls that are necessary for a good study.

  69. cynn says:

    Karl: Depends on where you’re standing when it happens. The assessment also depends on when you make it.

  70. Dread Cthulhu says:

    PH: “Obama will nominate 2 SC judges that will vote along the lines of Souter and Ginsburg.”

    You’d best hope that he’s got a hard 60 seat majority (not counting blue-dog dems), since filibustering judges is not a gambit in play.

    PH: ” Obama will raise taxes on the rich. Obama will propose legislation for nationalized healthcare and Comprehensive Immigration Reform.”

    And the end result will be the biggest advertisement for the conservative movement ever made, since, in the end, it will not be Obama doing these things, but Congress that does these things. Things that the people have already expressed their opposition to, btw, not that you were paying attention — you still think the populace is against domestic drilling.

    The mischief and pain that Congress and an Obama presidency would inflict on the populace would damn near guarantee Conservative majorities for years to come, once they realize that the only thing that socialism comes close to spreading fairly is misery.

  71. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – And cynn, maybe the number of stars in your eyes.

    – The thing to watch now is how the hard Left base tracts to Onama’s cute little “slide” on Iraq at the Hunity meet the other day.

    – Suddenly “immediate withdrawal” has changed to “reasonable and thoughtful draw down”. Wonder how his nutroot receipts will go next month?

  72. cynn says:

    I give up; candles in the wind and all. BBH, what’s with all the addenda to peoples’ usernames? Missed it.

  73. Mikey NTH says:

    We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
    This day shall gentle his condition;
    And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
    Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
    And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
    That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

  74. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “Obama will nominate 2 SC judges that will vote along the lines of Souter and Ginsburg…”

    – Which, according to the acctuary tables would mean the first two to go will both be on the Liberal side, and therefor a “psuh”, and so exactly nothing would change.

    – O!. Sorry ’bout that ProgHorn, go back to your quiet moaning.

  75. RTO Trainer says:

    Cynn,

    Assuming that the “tone” being set were one that I could even remotely be comfortable with…

    Until I have solid answers concerning what the program will be and at least a few concrete indicators that the practical side of things has been considered, I simply will not vote for a “tone.”

    Why would you?

  76. Dread Cthulhu says:

    Alas and alack, Mikey, the Dems through that one out with the baby and the bathwater in the sixties, to be replaced by the lyrics of “We Gotta Get Outta This Place.”

  77. Mikey NTH says:

    Simple words, said so that the audience can comprehend.

    Lincoln, again:

    AT this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. 1
    On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. 2
    One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” 3
    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

    It isn’t difficult to understand; it is, however, given in a time of great strife. It was given during Glory years. Most presidencies are blessed by not being in Glory years. I do not think the authors of the study have taken that into account.

    And I reiterate everything I have said supra. (Heh – lawyer-speak for ‘previously’.)

  78. McGehee says:

    McGee: Can you just get past your kneejerk oppo stance for once and consider expanding your stunted consciousness? I am not talking about relative intelligence

    Then you didn’t make your point competently.

  79. McGehee says:

    And you might learn to spell my name, Sin.

  80. Mikey NTH says:

    I got to go grab some sleep.

    Wrestle with this study that tries to study that which is, at its most sublime, immune to study. There are many sculptures, there is one David, by Michelangelo.

  81. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – cynn. I’ll put my money on “T” any time, but for me, and I expect the majority of people from all political ideologies, “T” in this case, means “trust”, not “tone”.

    – For me “trust you can believe in” carries a lot more weight than “change you can believe in”, particularly when the candidate on the Left doesn’t seem to have anything he can state in clear unambiguous terms that the voter can trust.

  82. thor says:


    Comment by Karl on 6/29 @ 8:52 pm #

    And thor sounds cranky precisely because he is one of the blathering fools I mention in the post. Please note: he never has much of substance to say either, just a lot of empty talk, just like his idol.

    You’re a pretty obvious dumbass, and a little tired.

    It’s a little chillier now than when you came in. That’d be a cue to zip it up on your way out.

  83. Karl says:

    #82: Point proven.

  84. Karl says:

    Mikey,

    The Gettysburg Address may be simple for you to understand. I would love to have someone give it to a focus group and see what you get. This year you get people who love O!’s rhetoric, but can’t name a single thing he’s ever done. You’re also overlooking to Oprahfication factor. Lincoln wasn’t telling sob stories, using kids as human shields, etc. That’s also part of the dumbing down Lim is describing.

  85. B Moe says:

    I’ve had occassion to look at my late grandfather’s school text books (he was born in 1901). I’d say they are the equivalent of a modern 11th or 12th grade education.

    I noticed the same from my grandfather, who also had the 8th grade education that seemed to be the standard of the day for boys. Although I would rate it a little higher than 12th grade considering this is supposedly the product of a modern graduate student,

    You can disagree with me, of course, but you can also drop and suck me dry.

    Apparently some university in Florida offers a Doctorate of PortaJohn Graffiti. I am not surprised.

  86. thor says:

    “Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably,”

    And kiss flying Russian supermodels harder than a orphan in Kazakhstan. Love means everything, especially when dancing the sidewalk clean of it’s beauty.

    She had 100-year-old eyes, legs and tits. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/06/28/2008-06-28_models_web_rants_pined_for_love.html

    Love, lust, greed, jealousy, she knew too much; pale and frail and stale as a dead killer whale that made it to the bottom of the capitalist’s look and sea tank.

    Who are we on the verge with Elvis wings. She didn’t ask how when her time was now. For a second, at least, that bitch flew faster than a NYC taxidriver’s need to know where to go. Same Elvis.

  87. B Moe says:

    “If heartaches were commercials
    We’d all be on T.V.”
    -John Prine

  88. geoffb says:

    BBH
    “For me “trust you can believe in” carries a lot more weight than “change you can believe in”, particularly when the candidate on the Left doesn’t seem to have anything he can state in clear unambiguous terms that the voter can trust.”

    That’s it for me too but I believe that for the left in general they only have to trust that he is of “The Left”. Once they do nothing he says will matter as it is all only “boob bait for the Bubbas” in order to get elected.

    Actions are always more telling than words and are how trust is built and broken.

  89. Ric Caric says:

    So, Karl. I want to get this straight. Are you saying that Obama represents a dumbing down of the presidency in relation to Bush? Nothing like visiting Protein Wisdom for a good laugh.

  90. Karl says:

    Ric,

    Considering I didn’t write any such thing, the laughter stems from the voices in your head. What I would say — as I have before, btw — is that GWB’s whole “uniter, not a divider” bit from 2000 fell into the same category of fantasy crapola.

  91. thor says:

    Russians live the best tragedies and die the best deaths.

    For the new Renaissance, I think she was ready.

    From its opera house she went jumped from a balcony.

    Tommy Thompson can now show her how to keep hands steady.

    And as flowers are placed on her her grave,

    beneath the fork of an undertaker rests that beautiful Kazakh lady,

    I bet that’s what they’ll say, after

    “DKNY, Cartier, Yyes Saint Laurent, right this way.”

  92. B Moe says:

    I want to get this straight. Are you saying that Obama represents a dumbing down of the presidency in relation to Bush?

    That obviously is not what Karl said, but what I was saying is that the fact you are a college professor is proof of the dumbing down of America. My grandfather with the 8th grade education was far more literate and intelligent than you will ever be.

  93. thor says:

    Russians live the best tragedies and die the best deaths.

    For the new Renaissance, I think she was ready.

    From its opera house she went and jumped from a balcony.

    Tommy Thomson can now show her how to keep hands steady.

    And as flowers are placed on her her grave,

    beneath the fork of an undertaker rests that beautiful Kazakh lady,

    I bet that’s what they’ll say, after

    “DKNY, Cartier, Yyes Saint Laurent, right this way.”

  94. thor says:

    How cute. Ric Caric and Karl smooching in a tree.

    You two ineffectual idiots are one and the same.

    Bush, never a man of letters, loves this country, is highly intelligent and did the best he could.

    Obama, although more gifted at oratory, is also very intelligent and will do the same.

  95. RTO Trainer says:

    I would point out, Karl, that when he was Governor, there was a track record of unite and not divide.

    It just didn’t translate to national politics.

  96. thor says:

    When he was Governor his track record was nothing much. George Bush had less experience than Barack Obama does today.

    Face truth down like the enemy.

  97. Karl says:

    96: Agreed, but predictable, wasn’t it?

    95: Someone needs to grasp the concept that an intelligent person can still dumb things down.

  98. Karl says:

    97: O! has been running on the premise that experience is a bad thing, because he knows that’s his weak spot, blathering suck-ups to the contrary.

  99. thor says:

    Marty McSorley got paid to do a hack job. I haven’t a clue what your excuse is, KK.

    You’re not Obama’s equal. You’re something far, far less than that. Jealousy as motivator maybe, but who can say for sure.

  100. Roy Mustang says:

    It’s one of the drawbacks of universal suffrage. Is Mr. Lim advocating going back to only well educated landowning voters?

  101. Karl says:

    100: Again, no substance there, but glad to see that thor has already managed to forget that he was intellectually pantsed several times over here last week.

  102. Karl says:

    101: Um, no. Unless your premise is that women, blacks, non-landowning men, etc. are inherently more stupid.

  103. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    Nothing like visiting Protein Wisdom for a good laugh.

    You mean at your expense, of course?

  104. SevenEleventy says:

    So, Karl. I want to get this straight. Are you saying that Obama represents a dumbing down of the presidency in relation to Bush? Nothing like visiting Protein Wisdom for a good laugh.

    Mr. Caric, great blog on Miley Cyrus. Way to raise the intellectual bar! What color crayons do you allow your students to use for testing?

  105. Slartibartfast says:

    One day, thor, you may come to the realization that your ongoing fixation with Karl’s genitalia is entirely beside any point being discussed here. Oh, and that you can’t unsay any of what you’ve said.

    Once the jimson weed wears off, I mean.

  106. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by Ric Caric on 6/29 @ 11:33 pm #

    So, Karl. I want to get this straight. Are you saying that Obama represents a dumbing down of the presidency in relation to Bush?”

    How about in relation to Corky the Retard?

  107. N. O'Brain says:

    ,retard.

  108. nikkolai says:

    Come on. thor. I’m sure there are a number of gay-themed blogs where you’d be welcomed. NTTAWWT. Most of us here don’t really appreciate your consistantly assinine drivel.

  109. N. O'Brain says:

    Somebody call We B Trolls and tell them the last shipment was defective.

  110. SevenEleventy says:

    A quality control issue!

  111. Carin- says:

    I see Caric did another drive-by without actually, you know, READING the post. Keep up the good work!

    I don’t have much to offer that hasn’t already been mentioned- but I will say that the “uneducated” among us today often do not realize such. They graduated high school and thus feel they have some sort of basic education, not aware that the product offered by the public school system was substandard. They don’t know important dates from American History, their geography is hit-and-miss, and have a vast misunderstanding of how government works. They are “done” with school so have no interest in more book learning. My husband’s employees are prime examples.

    Today’s politicians speak, often, to these people.

  112. Ric Locke says:

    What thor, cynn, Prof. Caricature, and (especially!) nishi have been telling us is that there is no content to “The Presidency”. It’s a prize, like the Stanley Cup or a super bowl ring, awarded to the team with the best on-field tactics and the most determination to win. Discussion of what comes afterwards is irrelevant and unfair, because there is no “afterward” except for the trophy presentation and subsequent party in the streets. We won! Huzzah!

    What’s especially amusing is that Karl’s pieces follow largely from the same assumption; he’s analyzing tactics and remarking on the effect of plays, for the most part. That isn’t good enough. Only absolute partisanship is allowed. You’ve got to be for the Home Team, or you ain’t shit. If Karl remarks that a particular play gained good field position, it goes without remark. If he notes that that was a costly fumble, or that the quarterback doesn’t seem to have a great air game today because he’s tossing interceptions, thor is sure to wax poetically pornographic on the subject of Karl just hates My Team. cynn and nishi will then weigh in, pointing out that “they” are ahead on points and the last two plays from that field position went for first downs, and Prof. Caricature will note sagely that the (now retired) previous coach of the other team wasn’t much despite his string of victories.

    Listen to the call-ins at the local radio station’s after-game report and you’ll hear the same thing, at length, with a few nouns changed. Talk about “dumbing down the discourse”!

    Regards,
    Ric

  113. The Lost Dog says:

    “Obama will nominate 2 SC judges that will vote along the lines of Souter and Ginsburg. Obama will raise taxes on the rich. Obama will propose legislation for nationalized healthcare and Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

    Basically the death of conservatism as a viable political entity.”

    Sounds more like the death of common sense and the Constitution as viable entities.

    It’s mystifying how the left has cut all ties to American history. I guess that makes it easier to spew warmed over nonsense, and try to revisit a road that has been taken many times before, and has always led to misery.

    But that’s what you are best at, ProggZero. Rewarmed leftovers.

    Luckily, Obama will only have four years to spread progg damage, and then he will be dumped on his butt for destroying the economy.

    Just like Jimmuh was.

  114. BuddyPC says:

    Lonesome Rhodes: I’m not just an entertainer. I’m an influence, a wielder of opinion, a force… a force!
    Lonesome Rhodes: This whole country’s just like my flock of sheep!
    Marcia Jeffries: Sheep?
    Lonesome Rhodes: Rednecks, crackers, hillbillies, hausfraus, shut-ins, pea-pickers – everybody that’s got to jump when somebody else blows the whistle. They don’t know it yet, but they’re all gonna be ‘Fighters for Fuller’. They’re mine! I own ’em! They think like I do. Only they’re even more stupid than I am, so I gotta think for ’em. Marcia, you just wait and see. I’m gonna be the power behind the president – and you’ll be the power behind me!

    May I suggest today’s choice for our netflix queues: 1957’s A Face In The Crowd

  115. Elvin T. Lim says:

    What if I tell that if current trends of rhetorical simplification persists, the State of the Union address, the most important speech that a president delivers each year, will read at the 5th grade level, the level of a comic strip?

    Perhaps the evolving culture of what constitutes good and clear writing will permit that too. Perhaps it will not. But as I note in the epigraph in the book, Einstein said it best: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

    See excerpts from the book here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/019534264X/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

  116. cynn says:

    Ric: Totally tortured winger analogy, and you know it.

  117. […] I wrote about the dumbing down of presidential rhetoric and argumentation, there was a fair amount of contrary sentiment that such […]

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