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TPM: How dare the US military defend itself! [Karl]

Josh Marshall warns of the grave threat the US military poses to our democracy:

It would appear that we have another case where the Bush Pentagon, particularly the Office of Public Affairs is forcefully inserting itself into the civilian election process.

Put aside the fact that Marshall does not reference any prior instance to justify his claim that this is “another” instance, let alone his later claim that there is a “pattern.”  How is the Pentagon “forcefully inserting itself?” 

By responding to press inquiries about Sen. Barack Obama’s claim that a rifle platoon in Afghanistan did not have enough soldiers or weapons to do its job, leaving the platoon to scrounge for weapons from the Taliban:

The Pentagon has acknowledged forces are stretched, but spokesman Bryan Whitman said that without knowing more, he could not comment on the veracity of Obama’s claim, except to say: “I find that account pretty hard to imagine.”

Wow.  That is what Marshall considers forceful?  He seems to believe that when the Pentagon’s performance is attacked by a politician, the function of a Pentagon spokesperson is to say, “no comment,” even though bogus left-liberal hysteria tends to ensue when the government fails to return a reporter’s phone call.

It appears that there will be will be left-liberal hysteria regardless of whether the government responds to criticism from either the media or politicians.  It is therefore difficult to discern what the incentive is for the Pentagon or any other part of the government to allow itself to be attacked without responding.

149 Replies to “TPM: How dare the US military defend itself! [Karl]”

  1. guinsPen says:

    ABCNews’ Jake Tapper talked to the soldier in question, who confirmed the story he’d told Obama. Now NBC News also appears to have confirmed the story by talking to the Army Captain in question.

    And when CBS queries the Captain in question, it becomes the Word.

    “So let it be written. So let it be done.”

  2. nishizonoshinji says:

    well…..it is wrong.
    the staffer that fed Obama that load of crap shud be fired.
    praps hez a mole.
    i wrote a letter…..its dumb to try to keep trying to blame GW for this weapons/armor/humvee shortage shit. it wont stick.
    i said, Senator Obama, that dog wont run….how many times have the tried this over this over the last seven years?
    GW was awful for science for the last eight years, but he is a fine CinC.
    the mil loves him.
    my faith in Obamas intelligence is shaken, or at least my faith in his speech writers.
    he doesnt need bushhatred.

    but he will still win.

  3. guinsPen says:

    my faith in Obamas intelligence is shaken, or at least my faith in his speech writers.

    So the Captain of the Debate Team reads anything put in front of him?

    Obamanchorman.

  4. nishizonoshinji says:

    heh
    i also suggested Obama propose scientific analogs to the moon landing and the way we beat the adversary in the spacerace during jfk.
    i think he shud champion nanotech, and blame the LHSC bein in Cern in GW.
    since GW is an evangelical, he can attack him on science on many fronts.
    urban legends about greenhouse gasses and evuul rethuglican nontaxpaying slumlords and sweatshop owners can play into it.
    and the emminently stupid “no child left behind?” perfect target.
    i like Obamas take on education. the ONLY thing that will work is smaller class size.
    think of is as vouchers for public school.
    smaller class size approximates higher scioeconomic status (SES) of parents.

    but GW pays lip service only to science and education.
    he was the anti-science president.

  5. nishizonoshinji says:

    an i kno perfectly well why u evangelicals want school vouchers.
    so u can pay xian schools to teach ur children quaint faerytales about the origins of the universes.

  6. nishizonoshinji says:

    the metaverses, sry, hehe.

  7. nishizonoshinji says:

    btw…why is evolution ur boogeyman?
    dont u unnerstand cosmology and quantum physics?
    that is just as dangerous to god-as-the-supreme-creator-theory…..probly moreso.

  8. nishizonoshinji says:

    “let there be light”
    the origin of photons hehe

  9. nishizonoshinji says:

    and….global warming caused by carbon emmissions is crap science.
    but still a good club to beat on the republicans with.

  10. guinsPen says:

    I blame JFK. He promised me I’d be driving to work in a Hovercar by now.

  11. guinsPen says:

    Nish, how come Scientists are always stunned or amazed when they discover something?

    Flabbergasted, even?

  12. nishizonoshinji says:

    u mean…..u know all this and still maintain ur quaint antique beliefs?

  13. nishizonoshinji says:

    i am astonished.

  14. B Moe says:

    i like Obamas take on education. the ONLY thing that will work is smaller class size.

    Smaller class size = Hiring more teachers = Pandering to the NEA.

    We need better teachers, then worry about getting more of them. Until teachers are held to performance standards like the rest of us, their overall performance is going to suck. That should fit in one of those evolutionary categories of yours, nishi.

  15. […] TPM: How dare the US military defend itself! See Protein Wisdom. […]

  16. nishizonoshinji says:

    no…smaller class size will help more.
    because smaller class size approximates a higher SES for the parents….
    if u look..state schools have the same standard for edu credentials, the same basic per/child fundage.
    but schools in neighborhoods with high SES do much better.
    if SES is the causal correlate, how do u change the SES for a neighborhood?
    parental involvement is the hidden variable
    smaller class size trys to mimic parental involvement.

  17. sashal says:

    well, J.Marshall is very often hysterical, so do many other bloggers, left and right.
    Some see liberal/fascist threat under every Bush, some are willing to investigate counter tops etc, etc,.
    That’s why I like this blog, -mostly
    reasonable discussions , biased of course, but who ,besides me,
    is not nowadays…

  18. nishizonoshinji says:

    bussing was an attempt to change SES
    school vouchers attempt to change SES, both by changing the neighborhood SES.
    but u cant bus or voucher entire neighborhoods, can u?
    better to decrease class size.

  19. Education Guy says:

    an i kno perfectly well why u evangelicals want school vouchers.
    so u can pay xian schools to teach ur children quaint faerytales about the origins of the universes.

    For someone who claims to love reason and science, you sure do base your premises on a whole lot of nothing. Remember what is said about pride nishi.

  20. nishizonoshinji says:

    well..trying to make GW out as a bad CinC dont fly.
    he was very, very good.
    the troops love him…he was mobbed by them when visited.
    the first time ive seen Obama put a foot wrong.
    stupid.

  21. nishizonoshinji says:

    it is stupid becuz it set the milbloggers against him.
    and lost sympathy from actual mil serving that cud see that story wasz crap.
    i cant see what it gained him.
    bushhatred doesnt need the flames fanned.

  22. nishizonoshinji says:

    education guy i speak truth.
    u kno it.

  23. guinsPen says:

    I’m not saying I’m an Obamoron yet, but nish, you’ve convinced
    me not to vote for GW.

  24. nishizonoshinji says:

    actually, GW is runnin…..as Mccain.
    he is a continualtion of bushadmin policy, or at least that is how the dems will paint him.

  25. nishizonoshinji says:

    on Iraq
    hmmmm…praps that was actually a muffed slap at mccain.
    hes been attacking Obama lately.

  26. Rick Ballard says:

    Kinda makes me miss the telephone pole. When does endless chatter composed wholly of stereotypical gargle give a positive signal regarding the existence of a black hole of stupidity masked by pretension?

  27. guinsPen says:

    the first time ive seen Obama put a foot wrong.
    stupid.

    “Boneheaded,” spoke Pharoah.

    Obama and Rezko visited the property together, according to Obama’s campaign staff, then bought it. Obama has since called the deal “boneheaded” because, at the time, Rezko already was widely known to be under federal investigation.

    Obama paid $1.65 million for the mansion — $300,000 below the asking price. Rezko’s wife, Rita Rezko, paid $625,000 — the full asking price — for the adjacent lot, then sold a piece of it to Obama.

  28. guinsPen says:

    i like Obamas take

  29. MayBee says:

    I think Obama would have been smarter to use this semi-fake story against Hillary, because she’s on the Senate Armed forces committee. I don’t know why he used it to swipe GW. Especially because he isn’t going to hurt McCain with stuff like that.

    The Pentagon is inserting itself in another civilian election much like Bush politicized intelligence by trying to figure out who in the CIA was leaking half-truths during the last election.

    ps. I hate to ask, but Nish what is SES?

  30. guinsPen says:

    widely known to be under federal investigation

    At the time, the standard answer of ALL politicians in Illinois to the question, “Mr. Rezko on Line One, would you like to take his call?” was, “I don’t know no Tony.”

  31. Rob Crawford says:

    because smaller class size approximates a higher SES for the parents….

    Wow, for someone who prides herself on being all Sciency, you sure as hell don’t comprehend “correlation is not causation”.

    And you *STILL* can’t help your bigotry. Christ, woman, try to think in something other than stereotypes.

  32. B Moe says:

    I hate to ask, but Nish what is SES?

    From the context, I take it to mean socio-economic status. Near as I can tell, nishi is making the argument that with smaller classrooms teachers will better be able to act as surrogate parents. I just don’t have the energy to try to explain to her what an incredibly bad idea that is.

  33. MayBee says:

    Oh yeah, that makes sense (SES). And oh boy, no it doesn’t work that way. Some public magnet schools mandate parent participation, though.
    (sorry to threadjack)

  34. JD says:

    Karl – Defending themselves against fucking smears in left-speak is now a pattern of aggressively inserting themselves into the political process. Thanks for pointing out their ongoing asshattery.

  35. Drumwaster says:

    GW was awful for science for the last eight years

    The first President to authorize federal funding for stem cell research (just not allowing more aborted fetuses to happen with federal dollars). The President who has given more than every other President COMBINED to solve disease in Africa (such as malaria and AIDS research).

    global warming caused by carbon emmissions is crap science.
    but still a good club to beat on the republicans with.

    Interesting that you admit that it is crap, yet apparently argue that Dems are stupid enough to believe it so thoroughly that a failure to address this non-problem is seen as a negative by the left.

    I’m not arguing with your premise, mind, just pointing out that the self-degradation you clearly missed implies that you weren’t smart enough to suss that out for yourself…

    Again, I don’t think anyone here will argue.

  36. DWB says:

    Nish,

    What is the correlation between a union stranglehold, SES, and education quality in Watts?

    How do you think your smaller class theory would have helped there?

  37. Darleen says:

    nishi

    just how much real experience do you have in the public school arena?

    I mean, besides your atrocious way of writing, which you try to pass of as precocious.

  38. Darleen says:

    “pass off”

  39. Carin says:

    Even Time admitted last week that smaller class size (along with higher pay and newer textbooks) does little to improve education. The pivotal issue, according to them, is the quality of the teacher. I largely agree, but I would add that parents are very key. As in, TWO parents. Or one REALLY SUPER attentive one. Possibly one who is type A who doesn’t need much sleep.

    As for vouchers, there are many parents whose desire for a voucher has nothing to do with religion. I’ll take you on a tour of Detroit schools, and you can tell me all about how smaller class size is gonna help. And I’ll laugh and laugh. It will be a good time.

  40. Carin says:

    bussing was an attempt to change SES
    school vouchers attempt to change SES, both by changing the neighborhood SES.
    but u cant bus or voucher entire neighborhoods, can u?
    better to decrease class size.

    Since the unions (and the Dems) have such a stranglehold on schools, parents have no choice but to abandon failing schools and entire districts. If you cannot afford to move, you are just shit out of luck, aren’t you? How’s that for supporting the poor in our society? Detroit tried to make some changes last year- close some schools (the population, as you may know, has declined), but the teachers and their union fired everyone up (knowing that some jobs would be lost) and few changes were actually made. So, Detroit parents and kids are left with exactly what they had before. Children aren’t experiements, and shouldn’t be subject to the social tinkering of educators. Why should parents sacrifice their kids at the alter of public education, based on the premise that eventually the schools will improve?

  41. JD says:

    Actually Carin, the pivotal issue is the quality of the parent, not the teacher. But that is racist, or SESist to point out.

    TPM is a forum that legitimizes loonwaffliness.

  42. LiveFromFortLivingRoom says:

    Carin you could take him to schools in Baltimore too they are just fantastic.

  43. MayBee says:

    Defending themselves against fucking smears in left-speak is now a pattern of aggressively inserting themselves into the political process

    Exactly, JD. That’s why Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson leaking to the press, Michael Schurer (sp) writing a book just before the election, and Paul Pillar going on anti-Bush talks in California was spun as Bush politicizing intelligence.

  44. Carin says:

    JD- unfortunately, there is little we can do about the quality of the parent. BUT, we can acknowledge that all the crap we’ve heard for years – that we can simply throw money at schools and make them work-isn’t the answer. Matter of fact, just about everything the unions advocate doesn’t wokr.

    A well-paid bad teacher (with a small class) is still a bad teacher. Even with brand-new books.

  45. JD says:

    MayBee – I noted last night how important I believe it is to address these instances each and every time. This kind of abuse of language and demagoguery should not go unanswered.

  46. Rusty says:

    nishi thinks you can legislate SES.

  47. Topsecretk9 says:

    Defending themselves against fucking smears in left-speak is now a pattern of aggressively inserting themselves into the political process

    Since they redefined “smear” – merely questioning the validity of claims made, they now owe President Bush a big fat apology.

  48. Carin says:

    Pay no attention to my typos and whatnot. I am a product of Detroit Public schools.

  49. Rob Crawford says:

    Matter of fact, just about everything the unions advocate doesn’t wokr.

    A friend of mine has a daughter in second grade. The way they describe the math curriculum strikes me as exactly the wrong way to teach math. It’s as if the education theorists are trying to create a generation of innumerates.

  50. Merovign says:

    You know, I can’t really tell if the quality of trolls has gone down, because these new ESL trolls make it hard to judge.

    As to the article, it just demonstrates how the “trolls” have taken over the MSM. Reasonable voices are shut out because they don’t serve “teh Narrative.”

    MSM organizations need to undergo some sort of review to see if they need to register as lobbyists and their “work” needs to be recorded as campaign contributions. We’re in “who watches the watchers” overtime now.

  51. B Moe says:

    A well-paid bad teacher (with a small class) is still a bad teacher.

    Especially if nobody cares. As long as achievement is considered a bad thing, our schools are going to be nothing more than collectivist conditioning centers. We need to abolish the NEA and rebuild from the ground up.

  52. B Moe says:

    It’s as if the education theorists are trying to create a generation of innumerates.

    Heh.

    https://proteinwisdom.com/?p=11197#comment-334535

  53. Education Guy says:

    but u cant bus or voucher entire neighborhoods, can u?

    No, but then again not everyone in that neighborhood is even making the effort to make their education work. You, in your compassion, would leave them all to rot while you tinker with class size and increased salaries. Vouchers would offer the lifelines to those who are making an effort and would not preclude improving the schools at the same time. For whatever reason, you have forgotten that we are talking about individuals here and not just statistics.

  54. nishizonoshinji says:

    maybee is right….charter schools mandate parental involvement.
    yup rusty, u cant legislate SES (SocioEconomicStatus)
    (it isnt just income btw)
    small class size is the best approximation for increasing surrogate SES that i can come up with.
    wat are bad teachers?
    u cant teach if u dont meet standards.
    by bad teachers do u mean teachers swamped with stupid paperwork and kids with uninvolved parents that dont inculcate good work ethic?
    do u expect teachers to give ur kids knowledge injections that that with no effort on their part?
    i think there are a lot more bad parents than bad teachers.
    u have to have a license to teach.

  55. nishizonoshinji says:

    no..not increased salaries.
    just more teachers.

  56. nishizonoshinji says:

    look..i personally know that if u can do highordermathematics, u can make 4x what u can teachin it.
    u cant make the saleries high enuff.

  57. MayBee says:

    wat are bad teachers?
    u cant teach if u dont meet standards.

    You can’t fire a teacher that doesn’t meet standards after they’ve been hired.
    Bad teachers, like math teachers who won’t answer the students questions. Bad teachers, like those that provide misinformation to students.
    The schools I was talking about with required parental involvement were public magnet schools, not charter. Parents actually had to go on a specific day and stand in line to enroll their students, just to prove they were willing to make the commitment. Pretty soon, of course, parents that wanted their kids into these highly successful schools started to complain about that policy.
    I agree there are a lot more bad parents than there are bad teachers, but ISTM the policy of the last 40 years or so has been to make it easier to be a bad parent. That last generation of kids left behind keeps not happening, though.

  58. Jeff G. says:

    Jackie Chan learned English listening to country western music.

    I bet he writes better in English than most college freshmen. Though on the downside, his woman is always leaving him, his dog is always dying, and he’s constantly driving his pickup truck into trees because he’s drunk on sourmash.

  59. nishizonoshinji says:

    maybee..this sounds personal.
    if a teacher is hired that doesnt meet standards, sue the school board.
    are u talkin about those grandfathered in or sumpin?

    and i told u….u cant afford to hire mathematicians to teach math.
    sry.
    its capitalism.

  60. nishizonoshinji says:

    oh i lurvs jackie chan.
    but he shud have listened to this song.
    always good advice from gretchen.
    dont drive ur truck when ur all jacked up.

  61. MayBee says:

    Personal? Yes, I used to volunteer in our (former) school’s homework lab to help low SES kids (in a high SES district) that wouldn’t get their homework help at home. I used to go through their backpacks with them and see all the notes the teacher had sent home about their child that the parent hadn’t even bothered to read or respond to. I used to listen to them tell me about how their parents had told them they would come beat up their teacher if their teacher held them in at recess again. And yeah, I used to listen to the teachers occasionally complain about the idea of getting better pay for better performance. I knew which teachers to stay away from because they couldn’t communicate well with their students.
    It’s personal because I’ve spent a lot of time volunteering in schools to be the change I’ve been waiting for. No school district could have afforded to pay me though. You’re right about that.

    I don’t know what you are talking about “grandfathered in”. Teachers are in a union.

  62. RTO Trainer says:

    You know, despite my constant typos–something I do forgive in others, I do tend to base my estimation of a person’s intelligence on how they present themselves in writing, even more than in speech.

    So when nishi isshes challenges on science (especially quantum physics)–my head spins a little.

    Nishi, if you’ll type just one sentence with propper punctuation and grammar, I’d be willing to take up the gauntlet. I just need the assurance that I woudn’t be picking on the disabled.

    Socioenconomic status of parents is only a factor in the performance of students becasue the emphasis in the home is on education. Smaller class sizes is a help to teachers with regard to classroom management and discipline and has a far smaller impact on student performance and is not a substitute for paretnal involvement and support at home.

    Obama attacks No Child Left Behind and risks losing the support of SEN Kennedy, unless Kennedy’s changed his mind about his own bill.

  63. B Moe says:

    So when nishi isshes challenges on science (especially quantum physics)–my head spins a little.

    I feel the same about her lectures on evolution, after maintaining that a lessening of clarity and precision is evolved communication.

  64. nishizonoshinji says:

    if you’ll type just one sentence with propper punctuation and grammar
    haw!
    like thats gonna happen.
    ;)
    is not a substitute for paretnal involvement and support at home.
    is said APPROXIMATION
    its as close as we can get, insystem.

  65. Education Guy says:

    no..not increased salaries.
    just more teachers.

    So then you would just leave the ones who are trying to rot while you tinker. Equal misery and (non) education for all. I’m sure you can get Obama to sell it in more polished terms. Something the teachers union will approve of.

  66. nishizonoshinji says:

    I don’t know what you are talking about “grandfathered in”. Teachers are in a union.
    then u can sue
    this is America.

  67. nishizonoshinji says:

    the ones who are trying
    do u mean teachers who are trying or students who are trying?

  68. Education Guy says:

    nishsi

    The teachers get paid, and they are already presumably educated. The students are there to get an education. So which do you think I mean?

  69. RTO Trainer says:

    nishi, I don’t think you have the background knowledge to get into this too deeply.

    There’are many many impediments–too many imposed by teh governmetn and No Child Left Behind is the least of them.

    An example, by federal law, if they bring a bucket of Jeff’s oatmeal to my classroom and tell me it’s a student, I have to teach it. And it had better perform at the minimum level on the standardized tests. Fortunately for me, it’s Jeff’s oatmeal, which can communicate and I’ve got at least an even chance. Otherwise I’m screwed.

    What would you sue the NEA or AFT for? Or if you don’t mean suing the union, who are you suggesting filing suit against and for what?

  70. nishizonoshinji says:

    ah
    but the students have to participate in the gettinganeducation process.
    i tole u what studies have come up with.
    SES of the community is the highest correlate with student performance.
    bein as how we cannot levitate the SES od the community, the smart thing wud be to attack the hidden variable.
    which we suspect is parental involvement.
    its the only we can approximate anyways.

  71. nishizonoshinji says:

    oh certainly sue the schoolboard.
    that is wat id do.

  72. Lee says:

    Here in California It would help the schools if they mandated proficiency in English before enrollment.
    Just a thought…

  73. nishizonoshinji says:

    the Discovery Institute sues schoolboards alla time.
    theres precident.

  74. guinsPen says:

    @ #32 I hate to ask, but Nish what is SES?

    Scandinavian Ear Service.

    http://www.flysas.com/Default.aspx?vst=true&epslanguage=EN

  75. nishizonoshinji says:

    haha, RTO, an also, if the oatmeal does REALLY WELL on the standardized tests, ull have to fight to keep it in ur classroom, and not be sent off to a magnet school to raise their average.

  76. Education Guy says:

    Here’s an idea nishi. Ignore what I said about helping those who want to be helped via a voucher system. That way you can keep pretending that education is not about the individual. You can throw out terms like SES and parental involvement and pretend that those are things that can be solved within the amount of time that it takes for the child to get educated. That work for you?

  77. guinsPen says:

    Or maybe Scott Earic Kauffman, garbled.

  78. Education Guy says:

    Suing the schoolboard is a fantastic idea. The folks who are supposed to be educating the kids will have to spend time and money defending against the suit. At the end of the day, if the lawsuit is a success, the kids still won’t be educated but at least someone will get paid with taxpayer money. Hell, what can go wrong?

  79. nishizonoshinji says:

    Some bad, bad teachers you can fire,
    well, dan…she may have been a very good teacher!
    just an incidental sexual predator.

  80. MayBee says:

    Sue the school board? Nishi, do you know who pays the school board?
    What am I going to sue them for, agreeing to hire from a union? Or do you mean sue them for each mediocre teacher they hire? It’s cheaper just to move to a good school district.
    You know your man Obama is fine with teacher’s unions, right?

  81. nishizonoshinji says:

    edu guy,
    i wuz talkin about maybee’s case inparticular, where she said the teacher didnt pass standards but cudn’t be fired.

  82. nishizonoshinji says:

    maybee i certainly think u can sue them for hiring a teacher that doesnt pass standards.

  83. nishizonoshinji says:

    that is wat u said.

  84. MayBee says:

    What standards are you talking about, nish?
    They are perfectly qualified to teach when they are hired, they just don’t do a good job of it. You know, like sometimes a company has a bad hire.
    But teachers get tenure and they can’t be fired anymore, while the guy in the next cubicle over can.
    Are you saying there are no bad teachers?

  85. Education Guy says:

    OK. I just think vouchers is a good mechanism for helping the little bastards that try, who simply aren’t going to get help in any other way. I’ll leave it alone for now.

  86. MayBee says:

    Oh this:
    You can’t fire a teacher that doesn’t meet standards after they’ve been hired

    I’m talking about teachers who don’t meet the standard of being a good teacher.

  87. nishizonoshinji says:

    maybee u said “didnt meet standards”.
    wat did u mean actually?

  88. nishizonoshinji says:

    ah
    but standardized tests just force teachers to teach the test.
    wat is ur evaluation criteria for not meeting “the standard of being a good teacher”?

  89. Foxfier says:

    On the idea of giving vouchers to entire school districts…why not?

    That opens up the chance to make money to folks for providing a service– which tends to cause folks to provide a very good service, so that they’ll get the money.

    I know several folks who either were teachers or were very close to being so when they quit, because they figured out they didn’t want anything to do with the public school system.

    There would be a few years where demand outstripped supply for charter schools, but that would just mean that the kids were stuck with the bad education they were *already* getting.

    Personally, I’m already planning to home/neighborhood school my children– that way, I’ll know they can do math up through algebra, tell a verb from a noun, explain the causes of WWI and WWII, quote Shakespeare, think/argue critically and do decent research with citations. (although spelling may suffer)

    By the way, I had a math teacher who copied the examples from the back of the book on to the board and would read the directions, then sat down and refused to answer any questions. I ended up teaching most of the class myself– which was quite a feat, given that I was *learning* it for the first 15 minutes of class. They got complaints about him from over a dozen folks, and last time I checked he’s still there, 8 years later. Barring physical assault or sexual harassment, he can’t be touched.

  90. MayBee says:

    Teachers that do a bad job teaching. Teachers that can’t get concepts across to students, or can’t communicate well with them, or want them all to go on Ritalin, or write ridiculous or confusing tests, or generally don’t know what they are talking about.
    Hang around a school for a few weeks. You’ll know exactly what I mean in no time.
    Are you trying to contend there are no bad teachers?

  91. B Moe says:

    We mean teachers that don’t fucking teach, nishi. How many different ways do you have to say it? Do you know how incredibly easy it is to get a teaching certificate? All you have to do is jump through the right hoops, academically it is one of the easy disciplines at any university. Once you get hired, there are virtually no standards you will be help to as far as how good you are at actually teaching, and what little standards there are are fought tooth and nail by the NEA.

    Achievement tests are bad, because then teachers just teach to the test- that is what they are supposed to fucking do! Public schools were marginal back when I went, what I hear from family members now is mind-boggling. Did you even go to a public school, nishi?

  92. B Moe says:

    wat is ur evaluation criteria for not meeting “the standard of being a good teacher”?

    Not having college graduates type something that fucking retarded on a public message board would be a start.

  93. nishizonoshinji says:

    We mean teachers that don’t fucking teach, nishi.
    but how do u measure that?

  94. ushie says:

    We measure by whoever the fuck pretended to teach you English, and demand higher standards than that.

  95. RTO Trainer says:

    It may surprise you to learn, Nishi, that they’ve been using standardized tests to measure classroom effectiveness and teacher performance since before I was born. They didn’t start that with No Child Left Behind.

    If standardized tests are being formulated properly and administered correctly, then teachers can’t “teach the test” because they wont’ know what’s on the test to begin with and it won’t matter anyway, because the test is composed of the common elements of the subjects tested, regardless of classroom, or the scoring is adjusted to take into account differences between classrooms, no different than cultural or regional adjustments that ahve been common in standardized testing since the beginning.

    There are a number of metrics that can be used to determine good/bad teachers. One is an anlysis of the distribution of scores in the class. In my freshman year of college, the university brought in a local stockbroker to teach Microeconomics I and II. On the first exam, there were (on a standard decimal scale) 2 As, 1 B, 0 Cs, 6 Ds, and 14 Fs. Is that a problem with the students, the test, or the teacher? Here’s a hint, it’s not the students. And you can’t differentiate between test and teacher on the strength of one test. However, since the teacher formulated this test, it’s the teacher that’s the problem. A good teacher will also look at the distribution of answers on individual questions in a test to determine where they have erred.

    This is also an illustration as to why you don’t want to hire mathematicians directly to teach math. Teaching is a profession all it’s own and has disciplines which must be followed in order to do it properly and well. A research mathematician hasn’t had that training.

  96. RTO Trainer says:

    On the idea of giving vouchers to entire school districts…why not?

    Becaue it invites the Camels nose into the tent.

    Once voucher money is being accepted by private insitutions that opens them to scrutiny on how that money is spent. Pretty soon the private schools are de facto public schools.

  97. B Moe says:

    I do construction testing. I started with testing concrete. My employers gave me some training manuals and on the job instruction on how concrete works. I learned what I needed to know, then I took a Standardized Test that determined whether I was capable of monitoring a concrete pour. Then I learned to check the reinforcing bar in the concrete. Industry professionals determined what was the minimum you need to know to be competent to inspect this, and they devised a Standardized Test for that job requirement. Same for masonry, fireproofing and any other phase of construction that needs monitoring.

    They do the same for doctors, lawyers, plumbers, welders, electricians, and on and on and on. Even teachers. Yet it is impossible for anyone to determine what a child will be required to know at the completion of the third grade before advancement to the fourth grade, and devise a test to see if they are ready? And once that test is in place, how on earth could it possibly be bad for the teacher to teach to it? That is their job, to prepare the kid for the next grade, that is the objective they are supposed to be teaching to!

    Why is this so hard to understand?

  98. McGehee says:

    u evangelicals

    Is Nishi talking to the voices in her head again?

  99. guinsPen says:

    @ #69You know, despite my constant typos–something I do forgive in others

    I don’t. Drop and give me twenty.

    @ #84Kauffman

    Huff…huff…wheeze.

  100. MayBee says:

    In the last few private schools my kids attended, they did 360 degree reviews. Teachers, admin, parents, and students would evaluate the teachers. I heard that at Singapore International School, they would automatically fire those that were in the bottom X (something like 6, but I can’t remember for sure).
    In the last public school my kids attended, they did job evaluations and peer reviews, but the most that could happen to a bad teacher with a contract was to move him to another school in the district or give him the elementary school gym class.

  101. nishizonoshinji says:

    oh…i get that.
    it is becuz u are an adult b moes.
    it is different from devolping learners.

  102. Rob Crawford says:

    Did you even go to a public school, nishi?

    She writes like she did.

  103. nishizonoshinji says:

    but the most that could happen to a bad teacher with a contract was to move him to another school
    hehe
    just like the catholic church

  104. Rob Crawford says:

    Nishi wrote this:

    but standardized tests just force teachers to teach the test.

    You’re cribbing your arguments from an Obama campaign flier, aren’t you?

  105. MayBee says:

    B Moe- I thought of you the other day. I had some concrete poured in my backyard and one of the guys had that t-bar shaped thingie you showed us once.

  106. Rob Crawford says:

    hehe
    just like the catholic church

    And, again, for someone who prides herself on being intelligent, you demonstrate how utterly ignorant you are.

    Why was that a scandal for the Catholic Church? Why are lay Catholics pissed as hell at it?

    Once you have that figured out, extend that to the public schools. C’mon, it’s basic reasoning. Someone as bright as you claim to be should be capable of doing it!

  107. RTO Trainer says:

    Drop and give me twenty.

    Permission to recover?

    (What? Only 20? I’ve got to do 42 to pass the PT test.)

  108. B Moe says:

    it is becuz u are an adult b moes.
    it is different from devolping learners.

    And I suppose cuz is all the argument you are capable of making. Keep that racist science of yours under your belt and you will fit right in at the next Obamarama.

  109. RTO Trainer says:

    it is different from devolping learners.

    Explain how or admit it’s no different.

  110. guinsPen says:

    wat is ur evaluation criteria for not meeting “the standard of being a good teacher”?

    Producing improper punctuators.

  111. guinsPen says:

    Along the lines of the Broken Windows Policy.

  112. guinsPen says:

    Pip, pip.
    Cheerio.

  113. guinsPen says:

    Permission granted.

    What? Only 20? I’ve got to do 42 to pass the PT test

    Like, all at once?

  114. Rick Ballard says:

    It’s rather entertaining to watch thread theft with intent to discourage consideration of BHO’s demonstrated ignorance of military matters. I wonder if the tactic will be used wrt every subject where he proves to have obvious and serious deficiencies?

    That would make for a long eight months if much attention is paid at all to loons in masquerade putting in a lot of overtime.

    ‘Cause, face it, we haven’t had a candidate as ignorant as BHO in a very long time. Plenty dumber, perhaps, but not this ignorant.

  115. guinsPen says:

    [Pharoah’s] …demonstrated ignorance of military matters

    Not to forget real estate.

  116. nishizonoshinji says:

    RTO
    in third grade…u can have mixed concrete learners and abstract learners.

  117. Rick Ballard says:

    Screw the real estate – I want to see the loan docs. Who wants to bet that ‘ole BHO has a no doc ARM with an as yet unadjusted teaser?

  118. nishizonoshinji says:

    hehe

  119. guinsPen says:

    @ #108 devolping learners

    Weren’t we were supposed to be developing thinkers?

  120. guinsPen says:

    in third grade…u can have mixed concrete learners and abstract learners

    Not if they’re screening An Inconvenient Truth in every class.

  121. Blind Howling Moonbat says:

    Those links are interesting as far as what we should be teaching our hypothetical third grader, and how we might get the best results, but I see nothing there that implies we can’t test children to gauge our success.

    I completely agree with Piaget theories that concrete thought should be emphasized early on, which seems to me would be easier to test for. Arithmetic, spelling, the nuts and bolts of the sciences- nothing difficult at all about establishing targets and teaching to them.

  122. guinsPen says:

    I want to see the loan docs

    We don’t know nothing about no loan docs.
    Or nobody named Tony.

  123. B Moe says:

    oops

  124. nishizonoshinji says:

    lulz, ive had both private and public schoolin….i got kicked out of parochial school.
    my point is …u need INDIVIDUALized learning plans in the 3rd grade….so….u need smaller class size.

    my bestest teacher ever ever was my 8th grade algebra teacher.
    he opened the door.
    i klepped out of freshman college algebra he was so good.

  125. nishizonoshinji says:

    and he was public.

  126. guinsPen says:

    I started with testing concrete

    OT. guinettesPen and I were recently talking about third-world construction techniques. We can’t remember how far along Petronas Towers got before they discovered the concrete wiggly-business. We’re also too lazy too look it up.

    What I’m saying is, BM, can you help out an ex-liberal Democrat who’s come-upon a {-group-} of people headed in the direction he’s running* from?

    I’ts like I’m in the scene in the original Poseidon Adventure when the Survivors encounter those poor bastards headed afore.

    I see the Blog Manager as Gene Hackman.

    *ran outta’ there steppin’ and fetchin’,
    like my head was on fire and my asses was catchin’

    We need to take the torch to the thin spots of their hulls.

    maybe I’d better go ahead and split before the cops get here…

  127. guinsPen says:

    Say, did anybody remember to bring the little sparky thing?

  128. RTO Trainer says:

    Like, all at once?

    Well, within two minutes–can’t lift your hands or feet off the floor, and that’s the minimum, achiving only the minimum is frowned upon.

  129. RTO Trainer says:

    in third grade…u can have mixed concrete learners and abstract learners.

    That’s not a difference. You have different types of learners in adults and pre-schoolers too.

  130. B Moe says:

    …u need INDIVIDUALized learning plans in the 3rd grade….

    Bullshit. I didn’t need an individualized learning plan, nor did the kids I went to school with. You want and individualized plan, hire a private tutor. With your own damn money.

  131. guinsPen says:

    Also, is there an Official Name for the tactic used (less these days) by both Pharoah and Clinton II of adopting the accent of your audience.

    I need to know this.

  132. RTO Trainer says:

    Incidetally, if Wikipedia is the depth of your understanding of Piaget’s theories, and if you think his theories are anything more than *theories* that so far work reasonably well, you’ve got a long way to go.

    There are no hard breakover points in age for mental development. One child might follow the poor summary presented in that article and another might be as much as 4 years ahead of it. Yet another might be behind, and there’s no limit on that end. This is like believeing that Gagne’s 9 Instructional Events must occur in the order he presents them or trying to rigidly apply the Troop Leading Procedures (which represents an objective formulation of practical instruction).

  133. B Moe says:

    What I’m saying is, BM, can you help out an ex-liberal Democrat who’s come-upon a {-group-} of people headed in the direction he’s running* from?

    I will have to Google that one, also, I don’t have any experience with anything quite like that. Slip-form grain silos up the 150 foot range is as high off the ground as I have been with concrete construction.

  134. RTO Trainer says:

    And now you demonstrate that you misunderstand ILPs as well….

  135. RTO Trainer says:

    “Also, is there an Official Name for the tactic used (less these days) by both Pharoah and Clinton II of adopting the accent of your audience.

    I need to know this.”

    Condecension? Parody?

  136. guinsPen says:

    Yes and yes, RTO, but towards the remaining Democrat Party candidates, never at you.

    But I am serious about the question. Although I know only two Official Names for Semiotic (there’s one now!) Stuff, I’m willing to learn. Look-it-up, even. My problem is, what do I google for the “tailoring one’s speech-delivery accent to fit one’s audience” tactic they employ. “Games ass-hat twatwaffles play?”

  137. Rob Crawford says:

    Bullshit. I didn’t need an individualized learning plan, nor did the kids I went to school with.

    My school had three “tracks”. Within those extremely broad bands, I remember having to memorize multiplication tables in the third grade, and having to do timed tests of multiplication. I’m 37 and *still* remember the first time I actually completed one of those tests.

    Seems to me that those tests were pretty strong examples of standardized testing, and at least a third of the 3rd grade were subjected to them. I know of three doctorates from the graduates of that school — one in mathematics, one in engineering, one in biology — and a metric buttload of successful professionals of various stripes. Despite being the smallest, poorest school in the county, we produced more than our share of national merit scholars.

    Funny how well rote learning and constant testing worked out for us.

  138. nishizonoshinji says:

    RTO, one of my very best friends was raised as an experiment in piaget theory by his college professor parents.
    hehe, i have empirical data.

  139. i have empirical dataan anecdote

    fixed that for ya.

  140. nishizonoshinji says:

    hehe…..do u member this big fight i had with Dr. Yes?
    turns out my anecdotal data was spot on there.

  141. RTO Trainer says:

    No way for me to remember that. And it mentions nothing about Piaget, much less the US military or Obama relying on the anecdote of a liar. Or is that last part supposed to be the correlation?

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