October 15, 2007

"Truth about Bush's SCHIP veto doesn't match harsh rhetoric"

From the Baltimore Sun, of all places — a paper that I suspect just made Keith Olbermann’s list of “Worst Newspapers In the World” — here’s Grace-Marie Turner, founder and president of the Galen Institute, a free-market-oriented health policy research organization that I suspect just made the list of Keith Olbermann’s “Worst Free-Market-Oriented Health Policy Research Organization in the World”:

Is President Bush a liar who hates children? That’s what many of his critics now are asking. Why else, they say, would he refuse to sign a bill providing health insurance to poor kids?

Specifically, the president has vetoed a bill expanding the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), which was designed to provide health coverage to lower-income children. One nationally syndicated columnist went so far as to call Mr. Bush’s rationale in vetoing the bill a “pack of flat-out lies.”

This kind of rhetoric is wrong and misleads people about the facts of this important issue.

There is no debate over whether to reauthorize SCHIP so it can continue to provide insurance to needy children. The debate is about whether children in middle-income families should be added.

The president is absolutely right in insisting that SCHIP focus on its core mission of needy children. When SCHIP was created in 1997, the target population was children whose parents earned too much for them to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to afford private insurance. The president wants the program to focus on children whose families earn less than 200 percent of the federal poverty level. In today’s dollars, that’s $41,300 a year.

About two-thirds of the nation’s uninsured children already are eligible for either Medicaid or SCHIP but aren’t enrolled. Raising the income threshold won’t solve this core problem. Congress should require states to focus on the 689,000 children who the Urban Institute says are uninsured and would be eligible for SCHIP if eligibility were limited to the $41,300 income level.

The other big problem is that many states are using SCHIP dollars to insure adults. Fourteen states cover adults through SCHIP, and at least six of them are spending more of their SCHIP dollars on adults than on children.

With this in mind, the Bush administration issued a ruling in August requiring states to demonstrate that they had enrolled 95 percent of eligible needy children before expanding the program.

Seems reasonable, doesn’t it?

But then, reason doesn’t factor into political rhetoric — where a failure to approve 40 billion of a requested 50 billion dollar increase is characterized as a 40 billion dollar cut to the program.

Which, of course, only makes sense to those who think themselves somehow existentially entitled to whatever it is they ask for.

No one doubts that SCHIP is a vitally important program for needy children, and that our nation needs to do a better job of helping working families afford health insurance. But giving the states incentives to add middle-income kids to their SCHIP rolls would prompt families to replace private insurance with taxpayer-provided coverage.

The goal of SCHIP should be to provide private coverage to uninsured children. If Congress would send the president a bill that does that, he says he would sign it in a minute.

The entire dustup over SCHIP has never been about the Frost family — except insofar as cynical Dems were willing to use an injured child already covered by the program as an emotional beard to demand an increase that would cover those making close to twice as much as the boy’s family.

Or, to put it another way, it was a carefully designed emotional appeal crafted by craven politicians looking for a stepping stone toward socialized medicine — providing incentives for the already insured to drop private healthcare in favor of healthcare paid for by tax dollars, and administered by a federal bureaucracy.

The backlash against those who “smeared” the messengers (who, given that the family was already covered, weren’t really the messengers for what it is supporters of the increase are demanding), therefore, represents the kind of faux outrage of the criminal caught red-handed who cries foul over the way his crime was exposed.

Hence, the defensive nature of the discourse — and the trajectory of the debate toward the emotional, with no regard for the substance of the issues actually under pressure.

As Tomas asks in the comments to an earlier post:

Why can’t these debates ever work like this?

LEFT/DEMOCRATS: “OK, we know that the founders established a system of government that was supposed to be small and limited. They didn’t plan on federal handouts. But history has since shown that certain situations rise to an unusual level of need, and require federal involvement. This program is one of them.”

RIGHT/REPUBLICANS: “We think it’s important to heed the founders’ wishes for small government. We can’t continue adding programs to the federal budget. Where will it stop? We worry that it won’t. This program is problematic because it runs counter to the type of government set out for the United States.”

This SCHIP argument is not about who does or doesn’t care about children. Christ. It’s about the proper role of government. That’s why the retorts from the Olbermanns of the world are so clueless at best, downright dishonest at worst.

If the left would at least acknowledge when its proposed programs do not fit in the intended government framework — that they go above and beyond, but are necessary because of such-and-such — the ensuing debates would be a lot less infuriating. But the left reliably skips that part every time. They proceed from the get-go as if everyone is operating in the same terrain, and pretend it’s thus merely a debate about the actual merits of various proposals.

It’s a rhetorical approach that has gummed up the gears of our political discourse for more than four decades now. It has caused us all to waste a depressing amount of breath, time and energy, sitting here constantly arguing past each other, all because the left is sloppy/dishonest with the debate’s most basic premise.

If only from the perspective of efficiency, it’s maddening.

Well, if it’s any consolation, Tomas, it’s designed to be maddening.

You are dealing with those so impressed with their own presumed genius that they’ve given themselves license to use any means necessary to bring about their desired ends. Using a largely sympathetic press — and casting their political opponents as villains who hate for the simple pleasure of hating (hi, Mr Krugman!) — they are attempting to control public policy by way of rhetorical totalitarianism and cynical manipulation of the un- or ill-informed, a group to whom they both pander and empower.

Of course, once the “progressive” revolution achieves its ends — and soft socialism replaces the liberal democracy the founders envisioned — the “cream” will rise to the top, and a new class of elitist bureaucrats and politicians will take full control of the nannystate, just as they have long believed was their right.

Hell, it’s more than a right. It’s their destiny!

Which is why I recently purchased a plot of land in Idaho. And killed off any frog that may be endangered before some government flack surveys the land, declares it a protected area, and takes it from me.

For my own good.

Were George Orwell not already spinning in his grave, he’d be spinning in his grave.

Posted by Jeff G. @ 2:33pm
233 comments |

Comments (233)

  1. RACIST!!1

    CHILd KilLER!!

  2. Idaho???

    I take it you’ve never driven I-84 westbound to Boise: it gives a whole new meaning to “whole lotta nuthin’.” I mean, the Sawtooths are nice and all (Redfish Lake!), but seriously, dude, trust me when I say that Napoleon Dynamite is a freakin’ documentary.

    Me, I’m off to Colombia if healthcare is socialized, because at least there, the healthcare is cheap and you can get meds that the FDA wouldn’t approve.

    Live on the edge!

    Because we can kill jihadis, but a government program? The Thing That Would Not Die.

  3. Pingback: Michelle Malkin » S-CHIP and the Democrats’ human shield campaign

  4. the idea that conservatives continue to write as if they support smaller government, after cheerleading the largest increase in government spending in the nation’s history (let us not forget that your beloved military is a government program as well) is completely absurd. you don’t get to spend $1 trillion on a useless war and still consider yourselves the party of small government.

  5. Let me know when you relocate to Idaho, Jeff. Other than being known for (in no particular order): Aryan Nations, spuds, a Senator with a “wide stance”, Mormons, Sun Valley (aka Hamptons West), the largest designated wilderness area of the lower 48 states, and a college football team that plays on a blue field, it is a great place to live. Nota Bene: the Aryan Nation has since decamped to eastern Oregon. Seems a salient point in light of…well, you know. Cheers!

  6. $1 trillion, huh?

    Big numbers aren’t really your strong suit, are they, spanky.

  7. “Or, to put it another way, it was a carefully designed emotional appeal crafted by craven politicians looking for a stepping stone toward socialized medicine —”

    Legislation by anecdote.

    Now with more rich noughaty emotional appeal.

  8. “…you don’t get to spend $1 trillion on a useless war and still consider yourselves the party of small government.”

    Yes I do. I get to call myself whatever I want, well at least until Nurse Cratchett catches up with me (extra points if you can figure out who plays her in ’09)

  9. you don’t get to spend $1 trillion on a useless war and still consider yourselves the party of small government.

    A couple things: first, the assertion that the war is “useless” is just that — an assertion. And not one shared by the twice elected CiC.

    Second, military spending is one of the things we conservatives believe the government SHOULD be spending on. National defense being one of government’s primary functions.

    Now, if I were supporting farm subsidies and the like, you might have a point. But take that up with the GOP pols who many of us here dislike as much as we do the Dem pols.

  10. That war is pretty much over, uticas. And we won. Tell your friends!

  11. Pablo – so I get mop up duty?

    uticas – if you think ANYONE here is going to defend the spending record (outside of a very few things, such as defense) of ANY Congress (D, R, Whig, Federalist, whatnot) you may have come to the wrong place.

  12. Grown up!!1

  13. Needs more gangster rap allusions, commie verbal tics, and oddly gloating despair/disgust at this:

    There is no debate over whether to reauthorize SCHIP so it can continue to provide insurance to needy children.

    But — gettin’ there!

  14. Glad your back, Jeff. I hope you are doing well.

    Naftali @ Dean’s world

  15. Major John, the Iraq war, yes. I both pray for and expect an extremely minimal amount of shooting in your general direction.

    Allah willing and the wadi don’t rise…

  16. “About two-thirds of the nation’s uninsured children already are eligible for either Medicaid or SCHIP but aren’t enrolled. Raising the income threshold won’t solve this core problem. Congress should require states to focus on the 689,000 children who the Urban Institute says are uninsured and would be eligible for SCHIP if eligibility were limited to the $41,300 income level.”

    An actual fact. No explanation given as to why Moonbeam and/or Sunshine don’t sign young Festus up for his turn at the trough. No exploration of the possibility that the reason derives from the fact that M & S are absolutely positive (and correct, to boot) that young Festus, as a scion of the Feckless Family Trust, will receive precisely the same level of care whether he is “signed up” for Medicaid or S-CHIP or whether he just wanders into the care facility, footloose and fancy free.

    Why waste time “signing up” for Medicaid prior to need for service? Why pay even the paltry $5 per kid for S-CHIP when it doesn’t affect “quality” of care?

    I wonder what type of whip the Sun would propose the states use in order to drive those eminently rational people to do something of no particular value?

  17. I wonder what type of whip the Sun would propose the states use in order to drive those eminently rational people to do something of no particular value?

    um , tell them to “use it or lose it”?

  18. Lose what? Care cannot be denied. Not without changing law at the federal level. The Feckless Family doesn’t have anything to protect – that’s why Festus isn’t signed up. Now, if they had equity in a home, rental property, and vehicles, why, they’d have young Festus enrolled before birth.

  19. Pingback: Right Wing Nut House » BAITING ANOTHER S-CHIP TRAP

  20. The Democrats are trotting out another family to put a human face on the SCHIP issue. Yet again it’s a family that already qualifies for the program as is. The difference this time is that the family has been informed of the strategy and their role in it.

  21. Ugh. And Josh Marshall apparently has lost his mind.
    Kurtz: The Kid Had It Comin’

  22. From the comments at Bill’s link…

    Bush and the repukes are putting out nothing but propaganda – as usual – saying they “want to help” poor children but that this S-CHIP bill isn’t the one to do that. Well, S-CHIP ALREADY helps poor children. The EXPANDED S-CHIP bill, the one the chimp just vetoed, is for THE WORKING POOR in this country – you know, the LARGE GROUP of Americans that repukes like to call “the middle class” but who actually are in trouble because of lack of healthcare, catastrophic accidents and illnesses, working 2 and 3 jobs, etc.

  23. Pingback: Blue Crab Boulevard » When The SCHIP Hits The Fan

  24. “Which is why I recently purchased a plot of land in Idaho. And killed off any frog that may be endangered before some government flack surveys the land, declares it a protected area, and takes it from me.”

    Ah Jeff G. in fine form. Watch out for any illegal immigrant squatters. They may be endangered too.

  25. I liked this bit from your link Bill B.

    The Wilkersons said they are fully aware of the possibility that their finances and personal lives may be investigated by opponents of the SCHIP bill.

    “We rent a house, we have one car that is a junker. Let them dig away,” Bo Wilkerson said. “I have $67 in my checking account. Does that answer your question?”

    The Wilkersons will participate in an SCHIP rally in Washington on Tuesday, plan to lobby several House offices on Wednesday, and will be in the House chamber for the override vote on Thursday. They also plan to appear with Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) at a press conference.

    so poor they can afford to take some time off and travel to D.C. eh, I realize someone is probably paying for the trip, are they gonna cover some other bills as well? I need to get in on this racket.

  26. Cokie Roberts on the NPR this morning said the veto, the one Republicans are totally uncomfortable about, it doesn’t matter cause in the end the bill that finally passes will look like the one Bush vetoed anyway, and this has been a simply wonderful issue for the Democrats.

  27. Sorry, maggie. You’re a designated trough filler – no soup for you.

    It’s not that much fun anyway. Not until you work your way up to the Big Beltway Trough anyway. You have to make an appointment (and a trade) with Mephistopheles for that.

    I don’t think it’s worth it.

  28. Jeff! Jeff! Jeff! Jeff! Jeff! Jeff! Jeff! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look! Look!

    A pingback from Malkin!

  29. I like her better because that pingback reflects well on her I think.

  30. Tell me if they have cheap Guiness in Idaho Jeff, I may be right behind you if Shrillary gets elected.

    Here’s a gem from PJ O’Rourke from back during the previous Clinton admin-

    “Health care is too expensive, so the Clinton administration is putting a high-powered corporate lawyer in charge of making it cheaper. (This is what I always do when I want to spend less money — hire a lawyer from Yale.) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free. “

  31. Uticas, the Consititution, which we around here foolishly believe is the basis for the law of the land, says that it is a function of the federal government to provide for the common defense but to promote the general welfare (about as close as you can get to them mentioning healthcare).

    Now, we can give you the precise definitions of those words, or you can make them up yourself.

    You decide.

  32. Cokie Roberts on the NPR this morning said the veto, the one Republicans are totally uncomfortable about, it doesn’t matter cause in the end the bill that finally passes will look like the one Bush vetoed anyway, and this has been a simply wonderful issue for the Democrats.

    Here’s the deal with that. What Cokie is saying is that the Democrats don’t care whether this bill passes or not. It’s not a question if this is a “stepping stone toward socialized medicine” or not. They don’t care. The whole point here is lure some little kids into the political debate and then scream rape. Incremental socialism is gravy.

  33. You decry the number of adults in the program but doesn’t mention that when congress was controlled by Republicans the Bush Administration encouraged states to enroll adults in SCHIP, mostly low income parents as reported in the Chicago Tribune on October 2 by Judith Graham. But regardless of that past history the bill President Bush vetoed calls for phasing adults out of the program. Under the bill you’d get your wish, over a hundred thirty thousand Illinois adults would go uninsured or get shifted to Medicaid at a cost of $75 million to Illinois taxpayers as again reported in the Tribune.

    There are also claims that “some states have used the program to enroll illegal aliens, higher-income families, and those already covered by private insurance. As with adult enrollment, this bill would permit all three.”

    That is flat out wrong. The bill tightens restrictions and doesn’t even allow coverage for children of legal immigrants let alone illegal immigrants. I suspect the legal Lithuanian immigrant who cut my hair last week is going to have to make hard choices about whether she stays employed or goes on welfare so she can get Medicaid coverage for her two year old son.

    The only way any family making up to the widely publicized but incorrect $83,000 would be allowed into the program is if the Bush Administration itself offers a waver to any state such as New York that has high medical costs. He’s already shot that down. Now that Democrats are in charge of congress and New York state it’s unlikely the president will allow such a waver in the future. His days as a compassionate conservative have ended. Otherwise as reported by the Tribune again the means test is $62,000 for a family of four.

    The Congressional Budget Office projected that one out of three new enrollees in the program would drop his or her private insurance to receive government benefits. But the CBO also speculates this is because the state programs offer better benefits and lower cost than the private alternatives. Some parents that currently have private insurance may drop that coverage and enroll their children in SCHIP. But you don’t take into account the spiraling cost of health insurance and the cutbacks being made by businesses who can no longer afford to offer health insurance to their employees and their families. Many of these families scraping by today to pay for health insurance won’t be able to afford another 7% or 11% annual cost increase next year. As it is this bill would only cover an additional 4 million children out of the 9 million that aren’t covered at all.

    I looked up this “22 million new smokers” claim and found the article it came from at the Heritage Foundation. These are the same people who sent the kiddie corps to run the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad back in 2003. They suggest raising income taxes to pay for SCHIP instead. Republicans should find other sources for their phony arguments rather than the Heritage Foundation. They simply aren’t credible.

    There’s approximately 50 million smokers in the USA. I’m one of them. If each smokes a pack a day the additional tax of .$61 per pack raises over $11 billion a year. I’ll happily pay an extra .$61 a day so kids get cheap effective healthcare rather than get shunted to the emergency room under Medicaid as a last resort. But if you’d prefer to raise income taxes like the Heritage Foundation does then start writing your congressmen and women.

    As for political nonsense this bill was negotiated on the Republican side by senators such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT) and Chuck Grassely (R-IA). They don’t think block grants to states to enroll kids in private health insurance is socialized medicine. They rightly lambasted the president for playing politics and vetoing the bill. SCHIP provides much better and more cost effective care not only to the families involved but to both state and US government taxpayers. Bush’s plan benefits no one but the health insurance lobby.

  34. I like how giving hundreds of billions of dollars to private contractors with barely any oversight is okay, but spending less than half that much to give children health insurance? What are you, some kind of tax and spend librul?

  35. “But mommy I don’t feel raped.”

    “Of course you do, baby. We’re Democrats.”

  36. You’ll all be shocked to know Olbermann has led his segment on the Frosts with a pack of bald faced lies.

  37. 22 million new smokers needed to make the SCHIP system work. I’m assuming those are smokers in the US. Taxes on cigarettes have surpassed the utility of available smokers. Mark, you either didn’t read the article or are a flat out liar.rather than burden the taxpayers with funding the SCHIP program, the article wants the people that need health insurance to be able to buy their own. Allowing people to keep their own money is not a tax hike.

    Smoke em if ya got em.

  38. Say markgr8, since you’re here, what really is the core librul ideology? The point of the spear, the bedrock principle, the grand unifying theory, the grail, the font of all wisdom, the way it works the way it does.

    I been axin that for years and all I get is either a blank stare or a rant with more fallacious reasoning in it than an Olberman family intervention.

    See, all that Pubbies-did-it-first junk kinda defeats what I can only imagine is behind your head of steam. I already get that part; what I don’t get is what you intend to do to run the world the right way for a change.

    Go ahead, knock yourself out.

  39. markg8, Spitzer might sue CMS to force them to allow the $83k limit.

    http://www.nysun.com/article/61424

    Do you support such a suit?

    Also, SCHIP has a broken funding/reallocation system providing no incentives to economize on funds:

    http://www.sph.umn.edu/img/assets/18528/SCHIPPolicy_ExecSumm_Feb07.pdf

    and still has no performance measurement system. OMB gave it an “Adequate” in its last performance (PART) review with most of the low component scores focusing on a lack of measurement and accountability.

    If Bush helped expand the program beyond its original explicit targets of “low-income uninsured children” then phooey on him too. Doesn’t mean there’s no principled objection to covering anyone but the neediest first.

    What, are there no “good government” liberals left? Wasn’t this an opportunity to fix the program’s problems?

  40. The means test is $62,000 for a family of four

    Is, huh? And the expansion is to cover whom?

    The Congressional Budget Office projected that one out of three new enrollees in the program would drop his or her private insurance to receive government benefits. But the CBO also speculates this is because the state programs offer better benefits and lower cost than the private alternatives.

    Lower costs to whom? Who’s picking up those extra costs?

    Some parents that currently have private insurance may drop that coverage and enroll their children in SCHIP.

    Really?

    But you don’t take into account the spiraling cost of health insurance and the cutbacks being made by businesses who can no longer afford to offer health insurance to their employees and their families.

    And the burden of payment shifts where? Why are the costs spiralling?

    Many of these families scraping by today to pay for health insurance won’t be able to afford another 7% or 11% annual cost increase next year. As it is this bill would only cover an additional 4 million children out of the 9 million that aren’t covered at all.

    Yeah, especially when their taxes rise as a result of this entitlement program, which will only expand. What makes you think that if we can’t fund the Medicare promises we’ve made, we’ll be able to fund this?

    No assets test? Okay, so should government financial aid, say, for lower-income students take into account in any way the assets of their parents? If not, why not? If so, then how is that different from SCHIP?

    There’s approximately 50 million smokers in the USA. I’m one of them. If each smokes a pack a day the additional tax of .$61 per pack raises over $11 billion a year. I’ll happily pay an extra .$61 a day so kids get cheap effective healthcare rather than get shunted to the emergency room under Medicaid as a last resort. But if you’d prefer to raise income taxes like the Heritage Foundation does then start writing your congressmen and women.

    Do you really believe that an extra $11 billion a year is going to fund this program and its expansion? Temporary highway tolls. At what income level would this program cover all of the 9 million children who go without?

  41. By the way, allow me to demonstrate:

    There’s approximately 50 million smokers in the USA. I’m one of them. If each smokes a pack a day the additional tax of .$61 per pack raises over $11 billion a year.

    I see. And where did govt get this authority? I mean, in convincing, moral, constitutional, legal terms, not practice.

    I’ll happily pay an extra .$61 a day

    Well, I won’t and I figure I’m within rights. You cite authority, please, k?

    so kids get cheap effective healthcare

    How so? Kindly prove socialism’s success over against the private sector. Demonstrate cheap, healthcare, and federal coexisting in the same sentence. Again, cite authority. If necessary, page back to comment 32.

    rather than get shunted to the emergency room under Medicaid as a last resort.

    I see. And if my neighbor drives 173 on the interstate, who’s responsible for cleaning up the crash? And, what valid role of government does Medicaid represent? Kindly cite constitutional authority. If necessary, page back to comment 32.

    But if you’d prefer to raise income taxes like the Heritage Foundation does then start writing your congressmen and women.

    Oh, I don’t know, I think we should abolish income taxes. You? Why not? Got a right to impose em in the first place? Kindly cite authority.

    And so on.

  42. Oh, and by the by:

    http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/fraser-report.html

    Wait times in Canada have doubled in the last 14 years. But wait, you say — are those Canadian or U.S. years? And are they constant or inflation-adjusted years?

  43. As for political nonsense this bill was negotiated on the Republican side by senators such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT) and Chuck Grassely (R-IA).

    Honey, it is never persuasive on this blog to show that some moron with an -R after his name did thus and so. We operate on principle, not personality or party. The fact that Bush or some Republican did something holds exactly no water. The tu quoques don’t sting unless you can pin it on us personally and individually.

    E.g.: If you can find where I said that I would follow Orrin Hatch to the ends of the earth (he being my Sen.), then you can repudiate me.

    Otherwise, no dice.

  44. I like how giving hundreds of billions of dollars to private contractors with barely any oversight is okay, but spending less than half that much to give children health insurance? What are you, some kind of tax and spend librul?

    country’s health care is okay?

    What are you, some kind of tax and spend librul?

  45. Busted post. Here it is again:

    Oh, I don’t know: I like how giving hundreds of billions of dollars to private contractors with barely any oversight is seen as not okay only so long as you can plaster Bush’s name on it (because that’s how it’s been done for decades, many of them involving folks not named Bush) but spending less than half that much to give children health insurance and thereby eventually destroying their actual health care while spending tens of thousands of percent more than that much to install socialized medicine and thereby destroy the country’s health care is okay?

    What are you, some kind of tax and spend librul?

  46. I don’t believe many of the critics of S-Chip understand it’s relatively benign ramifications. Or why so many Republicans (such Gov. Douglas of VT_) support it.

    If you’d paid out for health insurance for yourself and at least one child as I have you know that the Health Insurance Industry isn’t in the market of providing Health. It’s basically extortionary. For one thing, health insurers as a rule Will Not insure just a child. They require that the parent or guardian Also insure the whole family meaning adult(s) and children. Say if you are of modest means but of good health…but only want to insure your child…the agent says no way! He knows that Fear is the motivation for your business…and knows that you’ll dig deep to assuage that fear of your child being at risk and the sales agent exploits by insisting that the whole family (yourself incl.) Most pay full freight. Conversely, I found out that when in separation of the parents, one could easily and cheaply Add you child unto your single policy as ‘rider’. It was very cheap. The agent told me that children actually are low risks for serious health care costs….. But as a Business, Health Insurance Comps. Will not insure children Alone! Why? To Extort! That is why Govt. had to step in to rectify a serious problem to the body politic.

    Would you trust your govt. or a health insurance agent? No one would trust Insurance agents W/O govt oversight…that is why “Capital” insists upon govt. oversight and regulation…because No Right Thinking Businessperson would trust an Insurance Comp. w/o govt. enforced transparency and penalties for unscrupulous non payment of claims (as was prevalent in the 19th century and before.

    repeat: ‘children’ are relatively cheap to cover…but insurance companies as a rule want to maximize profits by forcing all of the family into a family plan.

    of course other states may have other plans in place……but please don’t pretend you know something about the choices of say the Frost’s or others who have S-chip unless you have Paid Premiums out of your own pocket or have knowledge of the insurance business.

  47. I don’t believe many of the critics of S-Chip understand it’s relatively benign ramifications.

    We don’t believe that the ramifications are “relatively benign.” As we’ve mentioned before, the choices the Frosts had after the accident were different from those they had before. I am the father of three, and I pay for a variety of kinds of insurance. I wonder–have YOU paid premiums out of your own pocket? Do you have what I would consider specialized knowledge of the insurance industry?

  48. Were George Orwell not already spinning in his grave, he’d be spinning in his grave.

    He’s just added another axis to his spin.

  49. Ride Free or Die!!

    There’s a helluva motto for ya.

  50. thanks for the link:

    “emocrats profile another SCHIP family

    Michelle Malkin, meet Bethany Wilkerson.

    Bethany is the latest child being profiled by Democrats arguing for an override of President Bush’s veto of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program bill.

    Malkin, the conservative blogger, made waves last week when she investigated the finances of Graeme Frost’s family after 12-year-old Graeme, an SCHIP recipient, gave the Democratic radio address. While conservative bloggers mounted a campaign to dig around in the Frost family’s life and question the policies that led the family to subsidized health care, liberals pushed back.

    This week, Democrats have brought forth the Wilkerson family, whose two-year old daughter Bethany is covered by SCHIP and had life-saving heart surgery when she was an infant. On Monday the Wilkerson family held a conference call, sponsored by USAction, a liberal grassroots advocacy group lobbying in favor of the $35 billion SCHIP expansion.

    For the record, the Bo and Dara Wilkerson say they make $34,000 in combined income from restaurant jobs in St. Petersburg, Fla. They rent their house and the couple owns one car, which Bo calls “a junker.” Malkin and other bloggers have revealed over the past week that the Frost family owned two properties, as well as a couple cars, and had a $45,000 income. The accusation against Democrats, and by extension the Frost family, is that they are too middle class to be granted any subsidized health insurance for their children.

    The Wilkersons said they are fully aware of the possibility that their finances and personal lives may be investigated by opponents of the SCHIP bill.

    “We rent a house, we have one car that is a junker. Let them dig away,” Bo Wilkerson said. “I have $67 in my checking account. Does that answer your question?”

    The Wilkersons will participate in an SCHIP rally in Washington on Tuesday, plan to lobby several House offices on Wednesday, and will be in the House chamber for the override vote on Thursday. They also plan to appear with Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) at a press conference.

    All of this effort, including using children on SCHIP to promote the expansion of the program, seems unlikely to change any votes in the House, where Democrats are still well short of an override. Stay tuned to see if bloggers pick up on the Wilkerson family story.

    I will admit that the Frosts were a little too comfortable to animate the point that Democrats are making…but none-the-less, it just proves the point: even “middle class” people can’t afford Health Insurance.

    Bush’s idea of limiting S-chip to only those at 200 per cent of poverty….ignores the fact that poverty levels are so low only the homeless can fit that slot. Even at 200 per cent you couldn’t afford an apartment in most locales with govt. assistance. I am probably at 4 or 5 times the pov. level..and still can’t really afford the “Rip-off” that is health insurance.

  51. Cokie Roberts…

    Democrat whore. No one ever points out that her father was a House Majority Leader — guess which party?

  52. Socialised medicine benefits bureaucrats , and no one else . Trust me on this one , I’m Canadian . Anyone who thinks Canadian health care is free , better have the cash available to pay an American doctor to pull their head out of their ass .

  53. Unless you can hold your breath for a year or three , waiting lists and all ,you know .

  54. We don’t believe that the ramifications are “relatively benign.” As we’ve mentioned before, the choices the Frosts had after the accident were different from those they had before. I am the father of three, and I pay for a variety of kinds of insurance. I wonder–have YOU paid premiums out of your own pocket? Do you have what I would consider specialized knowledge of the insurance industry?

    Jessum, I just Told YOU I did…who’s this “we”….Ayn Rand Book Club or something?

    I bought Health Insurance to prevent ‘asset stripping’ of my mate’s house and wealth..(she had more than I)

    Now, I am for a reduction of Fear..and would rather trust a democratic socialist type of govt. in health care (even Taiwan or Singapore have universal govt. health care systems)

    sorry, you like I, was and still are being ripped off by health insurance crooks.

    I’ll add that for a Private Contractor to insure himself in our state…for a 10K Deductable, it is over $600 a month.. I kid you not! 10,000 dollar Deductable! You might want to move where ‘community rating’ doesn’t exist..and you’d get lower rates…but you’d live in some cesspool state down south….now, it’s your choice. I am sure you despise community rating (Gov. Dean’s thing btw)..but it makes sense as it prevents a generally unscrupulous industry from ‘cherry-picking’.

  55. Now, I am for a reduction of Fear..and would rather trust a democratic socialist type of govt. in health care

    OK, datadave, we get it. You want government to be in charge of your health care, and have a major beef with the insurance industry.

    Me, I’d rather not give up the freedom of living as I choose in order to acquire the illusion of security (aka the “reduction of Fear”).

  56. “(even Taiwan or Singapore have universal govt. health care systems)”
    To the best of my knowledge , Cuba , North Korea and Canada have the only “universal ” health care systems .

  57. #

    Comment by Bill D. Cat on 10/15 @ 7:21 pm #

    Socialised medicine benefits bureaucrats , and no one else . Trust me on this one , I’m Canadian . Anyone who thinks Canadian health care is free , better have the cash available to pay an American doctor to pull their head out of their ass .

    yeah, sure you’re a Canadian. Like a rat’s a@@. Okay, let’s assume you are. Why’d Canada decide to limit Ameicans from emigrating to Canada to suck up on the great health care system? I know of one who moved their in his twilight years and got excellent heart operations w/o selling his assets to do it. He’s very pleased with Canadian health care. And for one, maybe Canadian doctors are moving here to gain wealth…but few average Canadians want our expensive care. But, the problems in Canada are similar to ours, Doctors dictate the price paid there as here. That was the compromise in making of Canada’s system: RESULT? Which system is Second Most Expensive (per capita) in the world== CANADA’s Which is most Like the USA’s? CANADA’s. You have the same problem we have. Price is dictated by the supply, not the demand. A Health Care Monopoly by the providers. W/O push back from a govt concerned with costs.

    Now, I recommend Singapore’s for a model.

  58. Bill D. Cat..ever paid Health Premiums?

    Germany, France, Britain, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Japan, Canada, Singapore, Taiwan, on and on and on…except much of Africa and a weakened health care system in Russia and China…(where extreme differences of wealth and lack of revenue has weakened their systems.)
    I think South Africa, Haiti and much of Latin America share our “privatized” system

  59. “Me, I’d rather not give up the freedom of living as I choose in order to acquire the illusion of security (aka the “reduction of Fear”).”

    I choose not to impoverish myself paying for monopoly health care. I am not happy with Mitt Romney’s and Ms. Clinton’s plans to force me to pay for health insurance. Now, tell me which one would you choose. It’s the latest and most likely outcome of the Republicrat reform effort.

  60. believe me..my spewing is just an example of what millions of other American’s feel about health care in this country. adios for awhile.
    sleep deprivation is another problem in the so-called “land of the free”.

  61. data dave ,
    tom04@telus.net , Calgary , Alberta . Putting this simply , as an American you have a right to the most precious asset you owm , namely your person ( body / health ) . As a Canadian it is illegal to purchase/or sell private insurance for that same most valuable of assets . Assuming you are American , who’s better off ? I don’t have that right , don’t take it lightly .

  62. I choose not to impoverish myself paying for monopoly health care.”
    At least you have that choice . I don’t , and never have . And if you think for a second that socialised health care is any thing other than a monopoly …….and a government run one at that ….. well you’d be one of those people that thinks governments are efficient at things .

  63. I know of one who moved their in his twilight years and got excellent heart operations w/o selling his assets to do it. He’s very pleased with Canadian health care. And for one, maybe Canadian doctors are moving here to gain wealth…but few average Canadians want our expensive care.

    Carri Ash will be bursting with pride, I’m sure.

  64. On the bright side, we’re making new US citizens!

  65. ….out of Canadians.

  66. “believe me..my spewing is just an example of what millions of other American’s feel about health care in this country…”

    When you guys stop feeling and start thinking about it, let me know.

  67. The thing that makes me reluctant to get into most of these discussions are these folks ranting and raving about greedy doctors, and greedy lawyers, and greedy insurance companies… and their solution is to turn it all over to the politicians, who the presume aren’t greedy?

    I really see no point in arguing with someone that fucking delusional.

  68. datadave, there’s two ways of looking at this problem:

    1. Given that US medicine is almost entirely federally regulated already, and given that Medicare and Medicaid are prevalent, you can only point to federalized single-payer and shout, look, a solution! That would be your myth, because the reality is it’s already a collectivized system just going by another name.

    2. Or you can eschew such incomplete thinking, do the mental experiments and pyhsical calculations about what happens when you cut the entire thing back to private sector choice and capitalism again, and then make your arguments for Singapore and Finland.

    ‘Course, you know you won’t take that tack, and I know we’ll never cut the thing back to private sector choice and capitalism. So what’s your beef? Not enough Socialism or not the right kind of Socialism. See, all of your petty solutions are incremental and opportunistic: They “fix” bad legislation with bad legislation.

    Because the Socialist myth this collective-medicine fantasy rides on is that the “broken US system” is going to do anything but start terminally down the final leg of path its already on once Hilary owns it.

    I’d just like somebody to explain to be how it is that I and my fellow man, under what I thought was a free, sovereign US citizenship, were either allowed or would want to legalize envy and theft.

    The problem with liberalism is that it’s selfish. Which means it rarely considers concrete, functional, fair alternatives when personal bandaids that serve just next month’s paycheck are so handy. How else to explain a family who pimps the kid for statist healthcare — that legalized envy and theft thingie — while owning $75,000 in personal transportation hardware.

    My car’s worth $5,000. What do I deserve from my masters if I stick a gun in society’s face like that?

  69. If it were easy Pablo , we’d all be doing it .

  70. NEWSFLASH!!

    The government is already in control of our health care system, but you just don’t know it yet.

    The insurance companies and the Medicaid and Medicare crowd are squeezing doctors like you wouldn’t believe.

    Both entities have beaureaucrats (b-cats from here on in)overseeing their billings, and deciding what % of the bill will not be paid. These are not people who are medically trained, but fucking bean counters who know nothing about anything except their paychecks.

    Doctors may not dispute a group of bills, but must dispute bills INDIVIDUALLY. The amounts that they screw the doctors for (20% – 30%) are not worth the doctor’s time to fight for individually.

    If a doctor takes one state or federally insured patient, HE/SHE MUST ACCEPT ALL PATIENTS WITH FEDERAL/STATE INSURANCE! This means that a doctor must put up with an unlimited amount of shit from any drug addict or drunk who walks through the door.

    Are we surprised that no doctor wants anything to do with “Universal Healthcare”?

    There is only one doctor left in my county who still accepts government insurance, and he has to fight for every cent he gets.

    All the other doctors around her (Fairfield County CT – very, very rich area) refuse to put up with lowlifes who come in and blame the doctor for their own ignorance and their spouse beating the crap out of them. Who needs an ignorant asshole screaming at you for their own foibles? I mean, you might as well be a bartender in a dive strip bar.

    With the Lib’s plan for socialized medicine, how many bright people will want to spend eight to ten years of their life in school, only to have Hillary and Bozo Reid tell them that they are felons for not putting up with this bullshit?

    Doctors are already fucked by the government. Why do you think that so many of the people who treat you in the ER are fom India (No disrespect to Indian doctors intended}?

    We are already fucked as far as healih care goes, and Hillary and her Stalinist cronies want to make it worse.

    Groovy, baby! National health care! I just can’t fuckin’ wait!

    Well.. Sorry about so many “F” words, but that’s how I feel about this “universal health care system”.

    I guess I’m just old and in the way.

    Oh well. I think it happens to the best of us…

  71. By the way, datadave, while it truly pains me to have to stoop to such pedestrian examples among adults, when I don’t trust my auto dealer, my carpenter, my grocer, my attorney, my teacher, my plumper, my carpet cleaner, my roofer, my movie house, my gas station, or my tailor, I make a simple choice, which I have this odd tendency to believe keeps things competitive.

    Collectivized medicine? What do you think? Do you think it’s not a monopoly?

    I mean, they must teach that on Sesame Street…if only inadvertently.

  72. datadave

    You want to have doctors and nurses who will treat you be the functional equivalent of DMV workers?

  73. Yep, what The Lost Dog said. I say we need more of that, not less. Maybe that’ll work.

    Meanwhile, not a peep on where the right came along, making these bullshit collectivist crapshoots constitutionally sound in the first place. Isn’t it a simply extraordinary thing that the national discussion has devolved into debating these fantastic views of imagined socialized reality and never once questioning the lack of fundamental right to turn the American constitutional system entirely on it’s head?

    This is what they surely foresaw, 230 years ago. When the majority hasn’t the fucking principle to even bother asking permission for jacking the entire program called America into a Socialist cocked hat. That’s real class. That’s integrity.

  74. Karl ,
    You up for another Big Picture Essay ?

  75. dave believes that all private businesses are crooks (previous thread as evidence). This is at the root of his thinking.

  76. yeah, Mike C. I was just discussing that with RTO. it boggles the mind that one wouldn’t trust “corporations” but the government is A-Okay! what a maroon.

  77. The government is already in control of our health care system, but you just don’t know it yet.

    The insurance companies and the Medicaid and Medicare crowd are squeezing doctors like you wouldn’t believe.

    Don’t forget the courts. I had someone telling me over the weekend that it’s the system’s fault that ObGYN’s are becoming hard to come by in many places.

  78. John Edwards will fix that, right?

  79. John Edwards will fix that, right?

    The power to create is the power to destroy?

  80. The smart welfare riders would never purchase any kind of insurance. Get sick, dial 911, ambulance arrives, handles you with kids gloves, nice transport to the ER. No one is turned away. Need a prescrip filled, send it to the hospital pharm, wait 30 minutes and it’s delivered to the ER and you are transported home by taxi, billed to the local welfare office. There are no uninsured children it this country. Just a few hundred thousand that the parents refuse to provide regular checkups to, and they’ll do that on any program. Smoke em if you have them, you’ll have to ‘cough’ up millions of dollars. Where oh where will congress get the money if too many people quit smoking? They’ll snag it out of one of the other pockets in your pants. I love to watch the liberal fools volunteer to give more and more of their income to the most criminal and corrupt congressional leadership in the history of the country. Bill and Hill have banked around $150 million in the past 10 years, how are you common people doing?

  81. Comment by Darleen on 10/15 @ 9:10 pm #

    datadave

    “You want to have doctors and nurses who will treat you be the functional equivalent of DMV workers?”

    Hey, Darleen.

    The problem is that most of them already are. The standard is to get a patient out every seven minutes (thanks to the HMOs and the government).

    I happen to have a fabulous doctor, but you can wait two hours in his waiting room, because he gives every patient the time they need. Frustrating, but when it’s your turn, you appreciate that he is doing what needs to be done.

    I call him my Doctor Savant.

    His social skills are not up to par, but he is brilliant, and his work defies everything that universal health care advocates “advocate”.

    If only more doctors had his attitude, compassion, and competence.

    Unfortunately, the government and the HMOs do everything they can to screw him. THAT’S what universal health care is about…Felonies for doctors who don’t kiss the governments ass…

  82. Lost Dog

    I hear you. And the stomping out of any remaining tendrils of free trade in medicine will further make “civil servants” of doctors/nurses.

    And what’s worse? Well, look at Dan Collins early post today about the “education” of social workers…where it has become the wholly owned subsidary of The Left (where non-leftists are driven out of the programs)

    What kind of people are going to want to be doctors and nurses in a profession where a good deal of their education will be devoted into making sure they are good leftists (anti-god, pro-abortion, pro-euthanizatia) and many of their college credits will be earned in lobbying legislators for more leftist goodies?

  83. jhoward –

    Could you be the brother I never knew?

    My question exactly – Have these idiots EVER read the Constitution? Or if they have, are they capable of understanding English?

    Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi(?) are the best indicators of the children who control the Democratic party (or at least let Sosros bully them into submission with a surfeit of CASH).

    What was that old ad? “Money talks – bullshit walks?

    Hmmm…

  84. The smart welfare riders would never purchase any kind of insurance. Get sick, dial 911, ambulance arrives, handles you with kids gloves, nice transport to the ER.

    My daughter (paramedic in poor area of town) refers to them as “oj runs” or “taxi rides” ie homeless that want some time out of the sun, clean sheets and a meal “for free” or people who need to get to the hospital for a sniffle or for pain killers and don’t want to take bus/taxi/pay for gas to share someone’s car.

  85. Darleen –

    I always like it when you post to me, because, as far as I know, you are a pioneer here, and I love pioneers.

    My doctor is an anachronism, and is always asking me if he can go to work for me. He thinks he would make more money working for me (he wouldn’t), but he is getting sick of the State Board, the IRS, and every other government “b-cat” being three feet up his butt. And they are – constantly.

    I can’t blame him, but I don’t want to lose him as my doctor. How many doctors do we know that will say “C’mon over to my house and we’ll check it out” at 11:00 pm at night? He is definitly one of a kind…

    And Hillary would hate him if she knew…

  86. I choose not to impoverish myself paying for monopoly health care.

    Isn’t that, by it’s definition. socialized medicine?

    Price is dictated by the supply, not the demand.

    Now, your officially a moron. If you want to see an example of what you wish for, look at Zimbabwe where inflation is illegal yet people are starving.

  87. Cap’n Ed points to this poll.

  88. “And Hillary would hate him if she knew”

    Ooops! I got that wrong. Hillary would put him in jail for a a felony if she knew.

    And to all a good night…

  89. Gee Jeff, I’m not sure the government has been run as the “founders” intended it, not that they agreed among themselves anyway, since the building of the Erie Canal. Or maybe Jacksonian Democracy. Or almost any other turning point in post-Revolutionary American government.

    Right-wing smearing is like the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq wasn’t a war of necessity. It wasn’t a war of choice. It was a war of opportunity. The same way with right-wing smear artists like Michelle Malkin. They don’t smear out of necessity. Or choice. They smear because they find opportunities for smearing.

    Of course, the right needs to find opportunities for smearing because that racial and homophobic stereotyping, rumor-mongering about pedophilia, and lying about war records is such an integral part of right-wing politics.

    But Krugman’s right. There’s also the personal dimension of so many right-wingers being racists, misogynists, homophobes, and people who are really bitter that it took them three whole months to get a job out of Yale School. That’s both the pool out of which smear artists like Malkin, Coulter, and Limbaugh emerge and the market for the work that they love so much. Oh, and in case you haven’t noticed, these folks are really popular among conservatives. Too bad they’re so-o sensitive when the tables are turned.

  90. alright, who had the bean burrito?

  91. Prof Cancer

    You assert “smear”. Please support that assertion with evidence.

    Uncomfortable facts inconveniently exposed are not smears.

    Demonstrating that John Kerry was not in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968 was not a “smear.”

    I heard the audio today of an illegal alien activist in CA who was decrying Gov. Arnold’s veto of the badly named “Dream Act” (I haven’t found the text yet, and I have looked) … She said, indignately, that the veto was wrong because it DENIED these youths RIGHT TO AN EDUCATION.

    See the perception problem? Somehow the mere statement that non-residents will have to pay .. you know … non-resident college tuition and fees is suddenly a DENIAL of a “fundamental civil right.”

    There are no RIGHTs to tangible things that must be provided by the labor of others.

    No one “smeared” a 12 y/o boy. And Pater Frost is not above scrutiny and criticism just because he wraps himself in the burka of Leftist “I gotta a RIGHT to my neighbor’s wallet because I NEED” cant.

  92. btw Prof Cancer

    I take it you agree with Harry Reid’s and Pater Frosts pimping of poor Graeme?

    How does it feel to be a child abuser?

  93. “1. Given that US medicine is almost entirely federally regulated already, and given that Medicare and Medicaid are prevalent, you can only point to federalized single-payer and shout, look, a solution! That would be your myth, because the reality is it’s already a collectivized system just going by another name.”

    Thats a great point. Now add to that that we seem to be doing it rather stupid compared to other systems by paying way more and getting rather similar health outcomes.

  94. I love when Ric lectures us on the rightwing smear machine. Pegs my irony meter to the point of sweet, sweet release.

  95. Thats a great point. Now add to that that we seem to be doing it rather stupid compared to other systems by paying way more and getting rather similar health outcomes.

    So….we should continue to do it badly, and on a greater scale? A bold suggestion, admittedly.

  96. OT: holy crap, it’s the Rockies.

  97. “Were George Orwell not already spinning in his grave, he’d be spinning in his grave.”

    You don’t think Orwell would be on your side in this, do you?

  98. – ….Wha?….and lying about war records I did no such thing….it was …eh….. a smear of opportunity….yeh, thats it….You want lying about war records you need to be talkin’ to that dork Kerry…. That moron is still looking for that damn form DD-180, and its been over 3 years…..Shhheeessss

  99. Are you saying Orwell wouldn’t be on my side?

  100. “Right-wing smearing is like the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq wasn’t a war of necessity. It wasn’t a war of choice. It was a war of opportunity. The same way with right-wing smear artists like Michelle Malkin. They don’t smear out of necessity. Or choice. They smear because they find opportunities for smearing.”

    Translation: “No liberal should be held responsible for their actions at any time, for any reason. At all times, the ends justifies the means when the proper narrative is being advanced.” Thanks for showing that you don’t consider financial responsibility to be that big of a deal, especially when children are in the mix.

    “There’s also the personal dimension of so many right-wingers being racists, misogynists, homophobes, and people who are really bitter that it took them three whole months to get a job out of Yale School. ”

    Considering the astonishing amount of intellectual immaturity and multiple stereotyping in just this one sentence, you are hardly the one to be lecturing anybody on the negatives of “prejudice”. This would be funny if you didn’t just demonstrate yourself as a walking caricature.

    Krugman’s right? That man of principle who castigated the Republicans in Congress for increasing the deficit, then turned right around and claimed it would be irresponsible to cut spending once the Democrats took Congress? That Krugman?

    Caric so aptly fits the description of Marx that Paul Johnson outlined in “Intellectuals”– a fundamentally lazy, self-righteous prig with no sense of personal responsibility and a entitlement streak a mile long.

  101. wow…got you wankers all worked up. Insomnia and some stupid rodent got me up to play a little go and thought I’d drop in to see you guy’s have a fit. ”

    Ha, who’s Emoting here? Krugman’s got more IQ in one of his toe nails than the lot of you.

    REGULATION in America isn’t for the consumer of Health Care, It’s for the Provider. If you had a Poli Sci degree and economics degree maybe you’d understand…but you’re just the dumb golf playing white guys probably working in an office. Actually, “the Office” epitomizes your kind of thinking.

    Now, imagine deregulating health care. I could dispense my own drugs. I could do abortions. I could sell opium. I WANT you clowns to deregulate everything. I’ve got some fields in Afghanistan I could make a profit from. Now, you get the picture? Haiti’s got the most deregulated system in the world….it’s called “rule of the gun”.

    I am afraid you Ayn Rand reading white guys haven’t ever suffered or worked a real day in your life…then you’d know why a merciful civilized governance is a very happy thing! Otherwise, go back to reading “Lord of the Flies”. That guy knew how the real world works…not some Libertarian fairy land.

  102. Are you saying Orwell wouldn’t be on my side?

    sorry, fella. Orwell never endorsed the NeoNazi shitheads that you seem to represent. He was always a “liberal” and remained that for the end of his days. It’s the Republicans that are in bed with the Chinese Communists. China’s propping up our economy And GW Bush’s idiotic tax cuts for the Oligarch’s of this nation.

    Orwell was always a “man of the Left”. Communism is soooo old. Now, Krugman is a representative of the new economic thought.. as you are of the old “neo-liberal libertarian” Ayn Rand “Virtue of Selfishness” CRAP.

    Orwell, again would be most appreciative of Paul Krugman, not Ayn Rand!

    “Orwell’s political views shifted over time, but he was a man of the political left throughout his life as a writer. In his earlier days he occasionally described himself as a “Tory anarchist”. His time in Burma made him a staunch opponent of imperialism, and his experience of poverty while researching Down and Out in Paris and London and The Road to Wigan Pier turned him into a socialist. “Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it,” he wrote in 1946.”

    “libertarian” Republicans are all for the economic devolution, a “race to the bottom” where Capitalistic Oligarchic Totalitarianism is all that remains (as in the US B-schools).

  103. “Gee Jeff, I’m not sure the government has been run as the “founders” intended it, not that they agreed among themselves anyway, since the building of the Erie Canal. Or maybe Jacksonian Democracy. Or almost any other turning point in post-Revolutionary American government.”

    eXcellente!! now it seems we have an educated human amongst us. I love the Erie Canal! I think the “Founders” in our present day would be considered relatively retarded but that’s another argument. History relativism or something? Anyway, I recommend the book “Wedding of the Waters” by Peter L. Bernstein, even Allen Greenspan recommended it….although it kind of blows “libertarian” ideas out of the window. It seems (like the NASA program) govt. and business working together can do much better than business alone. (e.g. Greedy George Washington’s attempt to build a canal system on the Potomac using only investor’s money for a get rich scheme where using govt. funding succeed in NY….leading the way for NY to become the Empire State. (wikipedia again: “The Patowmack Canal was intended by George Washington to connect the Tidewater near Georgetown with Cumberland, Maryland. Started in 1785, it was not completed until 1802. Financial troubles closed the canal in 1830. “) a long complex journey of success but the Erie Canal was the biggest project of its day..using bands of small contractors and big govt. money to do the job. If we relied only on the small minds of businessmen w/o govt. not much happens ….let’s say the Internet is another example of govt. providing leadership and private innovation following suit.

  104. “but you’re just the dumb golf playing white guys probably working in an office.”

    ……and you are some genius person of color who works in an open field? Pardon me Sandy, but if we kill all the goffers, they’re gonna lock us up and throw away the key.

  105. #

    “Comment by Mike C. on 10/15 @ 9:13 pm #

    dave believes that all private businesses are crooks (previous thread as evidence). This is at the root of his thinking.”

    well, I am a ‘free agent’ or in business like many if not most uninsured people in America. I file ‘self-employed’.
    only advantage is writing off just about everything except groceries…but it still Sucks. I am still working for someone as a contractor. or in a client/trade relationship. Just try going into business someday yourself?

  106. I like that. Why didn’t Osama think of that? Paying someone to walk on grass that really fries my a@@.

    but my former insurance man played all week and didn’t even know the laws of my state….so he got dropped for Geico. No, lizards out there playing golf yet???? (now, I can see the ad coming. Maybe Cavemen too out on the Greens w/ that colored fella.

    anyway, I am a white guy, but a minority of being a “liberal” white guy. According to Stats saying that only majority Repugs have is in white guys…and that may be fading as White Guys are losing market share faster than anyone else in the wage gap. More women go to college now.

  107. anyway, pretty good wordpress place. nice site, Dan. How do you keep writing soooo much? gotta get some sleep.

    another good thing about self employment, I call my hours! But it’s pretty insecure, believe me. Keep your day jobs, RANDISTAs.

    now to be living off capital gains that’s the place to be!

  108. Now, imagine deregulating health care.

    No one’s calling for that. Why are you debating strawmen?

    And, geniuses, the Orwell reference was about the use of language. Certainly Orwell was a socialist. He was also against the abuse of language in the pursuit of concealing your political goals.

  109. Holy shit. Did someone say “emoting”?

    Ah, irony.

  110. #

    “:Comment by maggie katzen on 10/15 @ 9:15 pm #

    yeah, Mike C. I was just discussing that with RTO. it boggles the mind that one wouldn’t trust “corporations” but the government is A-Okay! what a maroon.”

    who’s the moron? You’d trust Enron! at least the govt. is democratic and accountable, unlike a corporation… where the boards are handpicked by the executives. Look at France? They had a choice and maybe you’ll agree with Sarkosy..but even he won’t attempt to adopt a health care system like the US’s. With democratic governance choices can be made…but not in corporate America. I imagine you have probably a good inheritance from some board member perhaps…so you can trust a trust fund from a corporation. Happy Oligarch!

    we could go into the incestuous relationship between corp. boards and their buddy’s the CEOs and suddenly realize why Euro’s are fleeing America’s shores and going somewhere else where cooperation between govt and business is more transparent. And where the sucking off of wages and profits by overpaid CEOs and short term quarter profits aren’t driving the national currency down.

  111. “Now, imagine deregulating health care.”

    Pablo was just saying that. It’s the standard libertarian line that the failures of health care in America is the fault of too much regulaton. READ what others are saying here. The “Strawman” is that EVIL damned “gobbernet” making it soooo hard for those MDs to make any money. Poor things, Is that why Medical School Applications are going up and up???>?.

  112. Pablo, well, I did get called a “maroon”! Wow, I thought I spelled badly.

    maybe there is such a thing???

    “Maroon may refer to:

    * Maroon (color), a mixture composed of brown and red
    * Maroon (people), runaway slaves in the West Indies, Central America, South America, or North America
    * Marooning, the act of leaving someone on a deserted island
    * Maroon (rocket), a loud rocket used for signaling
    * Chicago Maroon, an independent student newspaper of the University of Chicago
    * “Marooned” (Red Dwarf episode)
    * Marooned (1969 film), starring Gregory Peck and Richard Crenna
    * Bugs Bunny’s civil wording for “moron”
    ///
    oh, she was being ‘civil’..damnab it, silly rabbit. I feel more like a runnaway slave though.

  113. http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=9997#comment-262663

    very good. At last another person who knows something.

  114. Maroon Yes, Bugs Bunny.

    “Now, imagine deregulating health care.”

    Pablo was just saying that.

    No, I wasn’t. Apparently, you’re confused – again. That was you who was just saying that.

    at least the govt. is democratic and accountable, unlike a corporation… where the boards are handpicked by the executives.

    Are you familiar with the term “stockholders”, datadave? When do we get to hold the heads of the FDA or the CIA accountable, democratically?

  115. I want whatever dave is on, but not as much.

    Orwell became a classic liberal, unlike you dave.

  116. A self employed porgressive like datadave almost certainly cheats on his taxes. Is that ironic?

    Really, I’m asking. I just don’t know anymore.

  117. democratic socialist: that’s what Orwell was. write your own history?

    you’re illiterate

    “Political views

    Orwell’s political views shifted over time, but he was a man of the political left throughout his life as a writer. In his earlier days he occasionally described himself as a “Tory anarchist”. His time in Burma made him a staunch opponent of imperialism, and his experience of poverty while researching Down and Out in Paris and London and The Road to Wigan Pier turned him into a socialist. “Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it,” he wrote in 1946.

    It was the Spanish Civil War that played the most important part in defining his socialism. Having witnessed the success of the anarcho-syndicalist communities, and the subsequent brutal suppression of the anarcho-syndicalists and other revolutionaries by the Soviet-backed Communists, Orwell returned from Catalonia a staunch anti-Stalinist and joined the Independent Labour Party.

    At the time, like most other left-wingers in the United Kingdom, he was still opposed to rearmament against Nazi Germany — but after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the outbreak of the Second World War, he changed his mind. He left the ILP over its pacifism and adopted a political position of “revolutionary patriotism”. He supported the war effort but detected (wrongly as it turned out) a mood that would lead to a revolutionary socialist movement among the British people. “We are in a strange period of history in which a revolutionary has to be a patriot and a patriot has to be a revolutionary,” he wrote in Tribune, the Labour left’s weekly, in December 1940.

    By 1943, his thinking had moved on. He joined the staff of Tribune as literary editor, and from then until his death was a left-wing (though hardly orthodox) Labour-supporting democratic socialist. He canvassed for the Labour Party in the 1945 general election and was broadly supportive of its actions in office, though he was sharply critical of its timidity on certain key questions and despised the pro-Soviet stance of many Labour left-wingers.

    Although he was never either a Trotskyist or an anarchist, he was strongly influenced by the Trotskyist and anarchist critiques of the Soviet regime and by the anarchists’ emphasis on individual freedom. He wrote in The Road to Wigan Pier that ‘I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently if you will only let them alone.’ In typical Orwellian style, he continues to deconstruct his own opinion as ‘sentimental nonsense’. He continues ‘it is always necessary to protect peaceful people from violence. In any state of society where crime can be profitable you have got to have a harsh criminal law and administer it ruthlessly’. Many of his closest friends in the mid-1940s were part of the small anarchist scene in London.[citation needed]

    Orwell had little sympathy with Zionism and opposed the creation of the state of Israel. In 1945, Orwell wrote that “few English people realise that the Palestine issue is partly a colour issue and that an Indian nationalist, for example, would probably side with the Arabs”.

    While Orwell was concerned that the Palestinian Arabs be treated fairly, he was equally concerned with fairness to Jews in general: writing in the spring of 1945 a long essay titled “Antisemitism in Britain,” for the “Contemporary Jewish Record,” no less. Antisemitism, Orwell warned, was “on the increase,” and was “quite irrational and will not yield to arguments.” He thought “the only useful approach” would be a psychological one, to discover “why” antisemites could “swallow such absurdities on one particular subject while remaining sane on others.” (pp 332-341, As I Please: 1943-1945.) In his magnum opus, Nineteen Eighty-Four, he showed the Party enlisting antisemitic passions in the Two Minute Hates for Goldstein, their archetypal traitor.

    Orwell was also a proponent of a federal socialist Europe, a position outlined in his 1947 essay ‘Toward European Unity’, which first appeared in Partisan Review.”

    cheat on taxes? you betcha. if Oligarchs don’t pay half the rate I pay then why not?

  118. excuse me pablo…maybe I meant most of the other ‘conservatives’ here; generally it’s the govt’s fault that health care is so expensive in the USA is the drift of the bs given. I think you lean that way too though. govt is the problem …let business solve it!! Now, that’s a hoot.

    basically my anger is derived from the unfairness of the present system. Many of the critics of the Frost’s here say that the Frosts should pay Whatever Business dictates for health insurance. That’s called ‘responsibility’ in their words. I call it: letting yourself get fleeced. But what if health insurance approaches 10, 15, 20 or 25 per cent of the lower middle class person’s budget. Now is that fair? that is what is happening under our ‘free market Oligarchic system.

    For one, it’s a “tax”, effectively a “head” Tax dictated by the Oligarchs who run our Insurance Business. Like Maggie Thatcher’s attempt to restrict workers from voting Liberal in England…she attempted to force everyone to pay 2000 pounds apiece (NO MATTER THEIR INCOME) in order to vote. That was shot down pretty quick.

    But there are those here who’d require average people to pay even a higher rate per family as Bill Gates does….(his health insurance costs are somewhere in the .0001 per cent of income range) especially since from a “free market” perspective, like a Credit rating agency, those average people should pay even more than Bill Gates does per person, since lower economic class people suffer a higher stress level and more sickness. These arguments are pushing the income spread even more to the “Right”. well, that’s my argument.

    Health care costs should “for society’s sake” be apportioned as a percentage of income, not regressively as a “head tax”.

  119. Many of the critics of the Frost’s here say that the Frosts should pay Whatever Business dictates for health insurance.

    Oh, yes. And for food, too. So we should just let the government take over feeding everyone so that those goddamn grocery monopolies can’t just charge whatever the market will bear.

    As mishu noted, it might be easiest to just outlaw inflation.

  120. Apologies to all in advance. I know I’m going to regret this.

    datadave, I hope a Ph.D. in Economics from a top-10 school qualifies me in your view to discuss policy. My suggestion would be that you take a week, read up on Public Choice Theory and Social Choice Theory, and see what it does to your worldview. I came up as the classic socialist technocrat, but my whole universe ran aground on the fundamental information-theoretic problems of socialism. Note: I WANT it to work; it really doesn’t. The problems of preference falsification and the inefficiency of using political mechanisms to allocate resources keep those systems way off their frontiers, and there is also the problem of endemic political corruption — politics in money means money in politics. For all your claims to firsthand knowledge you’ve only learned half the story.

    Aside: You don’t have to go as far as Hayek and Mises to see the problems, but I would suggest that both Lange and Bukharin’s grudging recognitions of Mises should tell you something.

    And to Prof. Ric: You seem incapable of engaging people at the level of issues rather than assumptions about their character, and that’s pitiful.

  121. The greatest (read most shameful) part about this whole episode is that Bush has been willing to merely double the current program, which to the immature left is to be seen as some sort of affront. Truly there are no adults left in the party of the Donkey.

  122. whats with the datadave’s obsession with white guys who golf?

    Oh! He was ill-served by one white guy who golfed so ALL white guys who golf are thieves, retarded, greed mofos …. yada yada yada

    I suggest DD look into utilizing the services of his local public behavioral health center

    or someone 5150 him

  123. whats with the datadave’s obsession with white guys who golf?

    I’m guessing it’s this.

  124. The war in Iraq wasn’t a war of necessity. It wasn’t a war of choice.

    Stupid comment of the day award.

  125. – Ah, and so yet another unique utopian Socialist regiles us with the dissonant temperence and obvious lack of experience, that seems to eternally define the beast collective.

    – As for the bitter references to a harmless passtime Darleen, my guess is he lost his balls somewhere on the great fareway of life.

    – I’ve changed my mind about abortion, at least as it applies to a certain demographic. Abort them from orbit……its the only way to be sure…..

  126. Pablo,

    That is a white/black guy who cheats at golf. It’s well known. Have your state trooper lackeys bring a big-nosed female distraction to your room. Use a chubby intern as a humidor on company time. Hell, launch a couple scuds while you’re getting your bean waxed. But when you drop a ball out of your pocket to avoid taking a two-stroke penalty, that’s where I draw the line.

  127. Pingback: Neocon News » S-CHIP Polling

  128. datadave, what’s it like to wake in such a state? Seriously? Getting that treated?

    I think it was me dropping the R word, moron. As in the feds regulate the medical field up one patient list and down the other insurance payment monthly. There is no private in medicine of any consequence, halfwit.

    So. Answer my question (you demonstrate a hypersensitivity, at least at 2:30am, to “regulate”, taking its opposite to mean a mortar and pestle on every kitchen countertop.) What the fuck original right does government have making me a victim of and a slave to your medical wants?

    Oh, and try mightily not to cite Professor Caric. There literally aren’t words to describe the uselessness of his room-temperature views. Seriously, doesn’t he bring the whole side down? You know, as you go searching for the Democratic Socialist Singularity; that single point of light that will, finally, shine out as an ideological beacon for all to see.

    And be amazed.

    Fire that mofo up sometime. I know I’ve been asking. If you can show me how I can free-ride that sucker with you without it wrecking the nation, count me in.

  129. Just try going into business someday yourself?

    You make assumptions about peoples’ situations/life experiences based entirely upon the fact that they disagree with you. Ever think that your assumptions are wrong?

    You’re very cynical about business but trusting of gov’t. Invariably gov’t regulations tend (sometimes by design) to benefit one or a group of competitors/industries over others. Generally, they favor big businesses over small as larger firms are better able to absorb increased costs (until they are able to pass them on). They also tend to favor the politically-connected over those who are not.

  130. cheat on taxes? you betcha. if Oligarchs don’t pay half the rate I pay then why not?

    Ya know, the people I’ve known who brag about cheating on their taxes are on the left — who almost always demand higher taxes, and impugn those who want lower taxes as “greedy”. The people who want to change the law to lower their taxes are on the right.

    Which is the more honest approach? Which is the more moral approach? Who’s more greedy — the fellow who lies and cheats but demands more of other people’s money, or the fellow who wants to keep more of what he earns?

    Oh, and “datadave” — you’re not convincing anyone when you rant about the “oligarchs”. Conservatives, as a general rule, don’t give a rip what others have so long as we can decide what to do with ours.

  131. “at least the govt. is democratic and accountable, unlike a corporation… ”

    Accountable? What universe do you live in?

    I had the joy of taking my daughter to the DMV with her Passport and the “Certificate of Birth Registration” given to us at the hospital when she was born by this accountable government of which you speak. Well, her Passport is evidently not sufficient proof of identification, and she needs a “Birth Certificate” not a “Certificate of Birth Registration.” So we went to the County Building and showed her “Certificate of Birth Registration” as proof of ID to get her “Birth Certificate” to take back to the DMV to prove her ID to get her Driver’s License.

    Would that be the accountable government of which you speak?

  132. You’re very cynical about business but trusting of gov’t. Invariably gov’t regulations tend (sometimes by design) to benefit one or a group of competitors/industries over others. Generally, they favor big businesses over small as larger firms are better able to absorb increased costs (until they are able to pass them on). They also tend to favor the politically-connected over those who are not.

    “Regulatory capture” — the tendency of regulatory bodies to become dominated by those they’re intended to regulate.

  133. “I choose not to impoverish myself paying for monopoly health care.”

    But he wants a monopoly backed up with the power of the gun.

    Do I sense a disconnect somewhere?

  134. Oh, and datadave, you ignorant, unperspectived twat, when you consider the cost of healthcare, try not to conflate it with universal, unlimited right to EVERY treatment devised by medical science.

    See, you promote taking enterprise out of medicine, right? You propose single-payer, federally-managed, right? You promote universal access. You promote fair. Somehow, because you’re self-employed.

    Then what, you ignorant pore, is this:

    what if health insurance approaches 10, 15, 20 or 25 per cent of the lower middle class person’s budget. Now is that fair?

    Fucking fair?! FAIR!? Er, should I, being self-employed, pursue health care — or insurance, your pick — for my condition, it’ll run FIVE THOUSAND percent of my lower middle class budget, you simpering child.

    Answer the question: What right do I have saddling you with that? Answer it.

    Last time I was downtown a guy spent the day in ER because he doped himself up on Viagra and Ripple down on 4th Street. The wife-unit (or whatever he called that) bitched him out all day…right along with the ER nurse. Seems Viagra boy was a chronic case of walk-in. In a $5,000-a-day setting.

    So, you cheesy little socialist strumpet, tell me how that’s fair.

    Then multiply it by a hundred million or so.

  135. So we went to the County Building and showed her “Certificate of Birth Registration” as proof of ID to get her “Birth Certificate” to take back to the DMV to prove her ID to get her Driver’s License.

    The same government that offers to confirm the validity of SSNs for employers, but will prosecute an employer for firing someone with an invalid SSN.

  136. For about the fourth or fifth time, I’ll ask this question and hope that either datadave or mark8g can give me a reasonable answer.

    Why should I trust our government to run a “universal” one payer health system that provides “universal” coverage to all when that same government runs the VA and Medicaire? What past experience permits me to believe that our government can run such a system efficiently and/or cost effectively?

    I continue to await a reply, as I have for months now.

  137. I think datadave’s mistrust of large corporations stems from the whole “McDonalds makes their burgers so damn tasty that you can’t eat just one. And you couldn’t possibly go only once a year or maybe monthly. They put sump’m in those damn burgers that gets you hooked and then you have to go to Mickey D’s every day and power-gulp at least 2 Big Macs. Meanwhile, Ronald McDonald is on the 12th green lining up an eagle putt and laughing about how he cheats the poor people out of their hard-begged dollars. But a little something like Big Gov. came along and pulled the trans-fat rug right out from under those bitches at Big Burger. Checkmate.”

  138. Oops, the Shining Socialist Singularity. I just found it. In datadave’s post, no less!

    Health care costs should “for society’s sake” be apportioned as a percentage of income, not regressively as a “head tax”.

    That’s it?

    I see. And houses (you know, for society’s sake)? I’m gonna go check the Amendments for traces of both, hopefully in the 145th or thereabouts. I think we got to free gas about Amendment 120, was it?

    “For society’s sake”. The Socialist Grail. The burning white-hot center of the Liberal Sun. The Leftist Enlightenment.

    It’s nothing but fucking legalized envy and theft. You know, universally establishing Bill Gate’s income/outflow ratio as our master’s authority under their penalty of law.

    I must say, I’m disappointed. I’d been so looking forward.

  139. At the risk of being tedious, I’d just like to point out that we already do, in effect, have some form of limited public health insurance. It’s just not on purpose, and it’s not run by the government, and it’s not necessarily (therefore) anywhere near an optimal solution.

    So: do we let what’s in place continue, scrap it altogether, or come up with something more efficient?

  140. Rob, through one of the SSA’s verification tools my SSN is not valid.

  141. when you consider the cost of healthcare, try not to conflate it with universal, unlimited right to EVERY treatment devised by medical science

    Good point. There is such a thing as “de-listing,” when a SP system says it’s not going to cover a treatment anymore. Your recourse in the government monopoly system is then … anyone? Anyone?

    I wonder if dave thinks he’s advocating a system that never says “no.”

  142. “Although golf was originally restricted to wealthy, overweight Protestants, today it’s open to anybody who owns hideous clothing.”

    -Dave Barry

  143. “Regulatory capture”. It’s inevitable because who has more interest in the regulations than those directly affected. A similar problem exists wrt entitlement/subsidy programs. The beneficiaries, as they have the greatest interest, tend to dominate the programs. Of course, the solution to these two problems is more regulation.

  144. I wonder if dave thinks he’s advocating a system that never says “no.”

    Beats me but it’s damn clear that he’s advocating a system that’ll sure as hell self-limit. All those advances that cost so much? The ones that keep us alive three times longer than nature initially permitted?

    datadave advocates no incentive. See, in a sense, there’s no such thing as an uncompetitive marketplace.

    I’m alive myself precisely because of the profit motive operating in private sector medicine, and I’m able to afford what of it I get precisely and entirely because of private sector benevolence. One hundred percent.

    Thanks datadave, for killing folks by ruining innovation.

  145. “Regulatory capture”.

    I think it was Jerry Pournelle who said that some of the biggest enemies of capitalism are successful capitalists.

  146. Hmmm… interesting news in Chicago today. It seems an independent panel has recommended that the public Cook County Hospital be turned over to a private management company, because of the endemic waste and patronage corruption currently in place at the facility. Funny how that works, isn’t it.

    Actually, a complete socialization of health care may be a good thing in the long run, to accelerate the collapse of the welfare state. Because if there’s anything Americans are gifted at, it’s avoiding the tax man. Once taxes really jump, look for Italian-style tax evasion to become the true American pasttime.

  147. “#

    Comment by DrSteve on 10/16 @ 8:11 am #

    I wonder if dave thinks he’s advocating a system that never says “no.””

    Of course he is. It’s free, isn’t it?

  148. Ah…these greedy bastards.
    How dare they exploit the sick and poor by giving them free medicine!

  149. – DrSteve…..I believe the proper inflection of ironic disbelief is:

    ….anyone…..Anyone….Bueller??!???

  150. Percy, related? Chicago, corruption, government-owned hospital. Maybe even some of the same people are involved.

  151. Then there’s Tarceva, the first drug in ages to show any sort of extension of survival in pancreatic cancer patients. It costs about $30,000 per patient. Everyone should be able to have this drug if they have pancreatic cancer, right?

    That increased survival? 12.8 days, for almost $2500/day of postponing the inevitable.

    Where’s the right to have that paid for? Where’s the obligation to pay for it?

  152. Hmmm… interesting news in Chicago today. It seems an independent panel has recommended that the public Cook County Hospital be turned over to a private management company, because of the endemic waste and patronage corruption currently in place at the facility. Funny how that works, isn’t it.

    Change a few proper nouns and that item could be about Grady Hospital in Atlanta.

  153. This pattern of rhetorical abuse is well shown in the CHIPs debate. However, this is in no way limited to this topic, just look at the debate over any social engineering program that they put out there. This is simply standard operating procedure for the Left and the media (I know, they are not mutually exclusive).

  154. Mike C., I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Then again, I wouldn’t be surprised if the current management at Cook County Hospital is a whole new set of party hacks who only know your guy vaguely.

    Incidentally, as I’ve mentioned here before, Cook County is raising the local sales tax to 11% to help pay for all this. Once again, my wife and I are readjusting our lifestyle to do everything to avoid purchases in Cook County. Again, funny how people vote with their feet to save some of their hard-earned cash.

  155. Found this interesting (though the MoE is pretty big at +/-5%):

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-10-15-poll-schip_N.htm?csp=34

    Note Rahm’s comments — he’s basically admitting he’s taking hostages. That’s the kind of thinking that puts a 12-year-old in front of the microphones.

  156. democratic socialist: that’s what Orwell was. write your own history?

    you’re illiterate

    I’m sorry. Was that directed at me?

    I know Orwell’s political leanings. But I also know what he felt about language and its misuse. Which is the allusion here. Cf., Animal Farm.

    As you’ll note, the Orwell reference occurs after passages like this:

    You are dealing with those so impressed with their own presumed genius that they’ve given themselves license to use any means necessary to bring about their desired ends. Using a largely sympathetic press — and casting their political opponents as villains who hate for the simple pleasure of hating (hi, Mr Krugman!) — they are attempting to control public policy by way of rhetorical totalitarianism and cynical manipulation of the un- or ill-informed, a group to whom they both pander and empower.

    So you see, context.

    You must learn not only to gather information, but to process it and use it where it is applicable. Knowing Orwell’s political bent in the 30s and 40s doesn’t help you here. Because the discussion in which he was invoked had to do with rhetorical tactics.

    In fact, he’d probably wish to argue the policy issues in the way Tomas suggests.

    So I’d be more careful throwing around the charges of illiterate were I you.

    Because I reckon you could extract my spleen and hand it a pencil, and it would outperform you on a test of reading proficiency — and still have time left over before it dried up to find itself a hooker and some coke.

    Probably beat your ass in chess, too.

    WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH NEOCONIA!

  157. All I know is that when I was considering going to Medical school, the two doctors who were Scoutmasters in my troop talked me out of it.

  158. Probably beat your ass in chess, too.

    Failing that, with the chess set.

  159. you have probably a good inheritance from some board member perhaps…so you can trust a trust fund from a corporation. Happy Oligarch!

    ha ha, no trust fund. I make less than the Frosts, no kids so maybe that’s okay. anyhoo, golf courses put me through college. OTOH, if there were no golf courses maybe my dad would have used his engineering degree instead.

  160. dave must have a bile generator. He is a prolific, though misguided, troll.

  161. Prolific? I don’t know that I’d use that word. Drunk, possibly. Rambling and incoherent, without a doubt. Prolific, though, presumes some sort of organizational effort.

  162. Slarti – I stand corrected. I was using prolific in the sense of sheer volume.

  163. JD,

    Some trolling is done specifically to tune propaganda. The selection of the Feckless Family wasn’t unintentional – The Beast of Chappaqua is determining the level of sales resistance to the Copperhead propaganda machine.

    Development of an effective narrative might have more political value than rebuttal of trial balloons.

  164. Not to toot my own horn here, but I’ve written a poorly-crafted blog post about where we’re going if we keep expanding government-funded health care.

  165. Is Keith Olbermann still having Master Frost on his show?

  166. I thought he did that last night – I must have misread #37.

  167. No, happyfeet. I did not turn on anything other than the baseball game last night, so I was unaware.

  168. Now, I am for a reduction of Fear..and would rather trust a democratic socialist type of govt. in health care (even Taiwan or Singapore have universal govt. health care systems)

    Planes, ships, and other conveyances leaving every day. What are you waiting for? Socialist utopia awaits. Leave us freedom-loving troglodytes to stew in our own bitter juices. Hell, we won’t even expect you to thank us for the life-saving innovations you’re too progressive and enlightened to worry about providing incentives for developing or paying for. We’ll just put ’em on your bill when you get tired of waiting lists and come (or get sent) back here for treatment.

  169. I doubt dave is self employed, unless he is a freelance activist. Which still just goes to prove that any idiot can make a living in this country. God. I love America.

  170. Pingback: Cold Fury » Blog Archive » Coming soon to a Demo-socialist nation way too near you!

  171. Dave was amusing. Tedious, tired & predictable, but amusing.

  172. so where do unions fit into the corporate vs. government trust spectrum? I’m just curious. (I’ve been seeing their ad “against” Kay Granger all week)

  173. Why, on the side of all that is true and right and just, maggie.

  174. Maggie – Those unions represent the ideals of the working men and women of America. THeir positions are beyond reproach. Their motives are pure. They certainly are not big business, and money plays no role in their decisions. The members of the unions have the ability to dictate how their money can be spent, and on which party they support. In short, you are un-American if you question the unions.

  175. Pingback: Right Voices » Blog Archive » SCHIP, The Frost Family, The Wilkerson’s, Olby and Faiz

  176. well, nice to read such blather before my bath. Prolific? you bet. despite the sarcasm and irony there were little bits of interest there.

    “freelance activist”? Wish it were so…as long I don’t have to marry someone like Mary Matalin. (I guess James Carville is a ‘freelance activist’ not many others making any money at that….unless some pressing issue is involved. I worked ’til 7 pm remodeling a trailer for a teacher. She teaches 2 kids at some millionaire’s home. Nice work for a teacher. I guess a certified Teacher can make more ‘homeschooling ‘ for someone too busy to actually homeschool.

    as for politics I heard on the NPR business show that in the current climate, the top one percent accounts for 80 percent of all campaign finance for Both Democrats and Republicans… maybe that’s why John Kerry ‘windsurfed’ from an easy victory to defeat? The Goof didn’t even spend all the campaign money he had…and now McCain’s campaign is broke. (I dislike Kerry for different reasons than you all…)

    although mostly this is a anti Democrat sight I don’t see much advocacy of any political solution. Maybe ‘we’ all realize it really is an Oligarchy, not a Democracy here in the ol’ USA.

    Now, I wonder am I the only Self Employed person here (actually not by choice…at the moment… fake subcontracting, “free agency”, whatever you call it is the rule of thumb in construction. ) Although I had a ‘business’ for 14 years paying double the usual rate for social security. That’s the hard part, coming up with 15 percent of the net income at the end of the tax year…but I don’t like giving the gobern’t my savings for them to collect interest (on a quarterly basis).

    I am too broke to travel and sounds like you wingnuts are too.

    Krugman’s a genius and so is John Kenneth Galbraith and his son, too. That’ll get you all spewing invective and hate, won’t it?

    hasta

  177. Man, you are so harshing my buzz!

  178. What happened to you, dave? You used to be cool, man.

  179. The government is accountable and private enterprise isn’t? Krugman is a genius? Wow. He has to be a parody. Maybe one too many 2X4’s fell on his skull? Could be anything, I suppose.

  180. And, btw, I say the above as someone who has had two very close friends start businesses of their own. And datadave is right in that insurance for the self employed is pretty cost prohibitive. Now, my friends are parents and know all about priorities (one is even a good old fashioned democrat) so they went out and got jobs that provide health coverage for them and their spouses/children. Are there any answers OTHER than socialized medicine out there? datadave is just playing the victim socialist bullshit card in complaining about evil private enterprise (I used to work for a healthcare consultant, I know it is a high profit margin business), but there has got to be some way that gubment can try and reduce the prohibitive cost of self insurance? Any ideas?

  181. Are there any answers OTHER than socialized medicine out there?

    yeah, just don’t call it ‘socialist’.

    really, just let the uninsured be uninsured. I’m taking my chances…if I fall, maybe I can gimp around the town square asking for alms or just shoot me. ….

    Krugman write with skill and pizzazz. And he hits the mark. So that is why he is so Hated by the RightWingnuts.

    The fact is, health care is an incredibly good deal in the USA for those in the million dollar a year range. That same ol’ High Deductible I skimped and saved for was the same price or cheaper for the millionaire. Except I didn’t have the 10K pocket change to just go off for a check up Before hitting the top of the deduction. It was less likely that the millionaire would even use the insurance as he didn’t do anything too dangerous at work like I do…although a skiing accident could be his way to get past his deductible. I had one of those.. and never could pay off the crazy overpriced hospital bill I refused to as it was a rip off….(how about 1799. for about an hour of minor care (seven stitches).. not even a doctor saw me..)

  182. OI at #181:

    This has prolly been noted somewhere before, but if Health Insurance could be re-designed to be more like Auto Insurance, we might get somewhere….

    Please note: Some of what I’m speaking of as “re-designed” was created in the PPO, where the Insured gets to pick who s/he sees for Repairs, within certain limits, and there is a Maximum Value for coverage (which the PPO used by the manufacturing company I work for sets at $5M); with Auto Insurance this amounts to, “You pick from these Body Shops which we approve, and repairs go up to Replacement Value”, but it also means “No Frivolous Lawsuits to try to replace your wrecked Fiesta with a Ferrari.” It wouldn’t be that simple, of course — without Tort Reform there can’t be any such changes, and since Lawmakers tend to be Lawyers, we all know where that would go — but the Gummint could enact straightforward laws to limit Justice By Lottery (“Why, do you People Of The Jury have any idea how much this Poor Plaintiff suffered at the hands of McDonald’s because her idiot nephew didn’t know how to drive his sportscar?”), and reduce the costs of Medical Malpractice, perhaps actually allowing for Prudent Action, or the lack thereof, to be a determinant as to payout …

    … but then, far better minds than mine have thought this sort of thing out….

  183. It is giggle worthy to note that datadave has a mancrush on former Enron advisor Paul Krugman.

    Obs. Infidel…what do you mean by “self-insurance”?

    Anecdote … in 1985 my father (age mid 50’s) suffered an abdominal aneurysm. It is a miracle that he survived… he did spend 6.5 months in the hospital and racked up over a half-mil in bills. All covered by the insurance he had through his employer

    HOWEVER he was unemployed by the time he got well and unemployable because of his “previous” medical condition.

    So he went into business for himself and with my mother as another employee of the company was able to secure medical insurance. Yes it was expensive at first, but at least he HAD insurance. They did a lot of research into what was available through a variety of small business pools.

    We got dad to finally retire a couple of years ago by firing his last client (though they keep calling at begging him to do special projects). Dad is 79.

    If we are to nationalize medical care because “it’s necessary” why don’t we nationalize food? Food is much more important than medicine, and hell why should the guy down the street get to eat crab and steak when I have to make do with pot roast?

    I want a government program that will let me pick out whatever I want from a government run market and have my neighbor pay for it!

  184. datadave

    Jealosy is such an ugly emotion. Just because someone is more talented than you and thus earns more is no reason to hate them.

    Get help.

  185. And, BTW, in regard to my last post:

    My mother ended up in the hospital for a number of weeks because she’d been accidentally overdosed on Zoloft by her doctor (he prescribed three times the recommended dose); everything turned out well in the long run (bear with me), because — in order to protect himself from a malpractice suit — her doctor had all of her expenses in the mental ward taken care of “off the books” (meaning that there was no record of any sort of her even being in said mental ward); and when (at the urging of other family members) Ma asked an attorney about filing a suit against the doctor, she was told “With what, for proof?”

    In retrospect (quite a few years down the road, in fact), my mother and I have agreed that, as long as she was restored to full health, and it didn’t cost her anything, then what more could a lawsuit have given her?

    What more should any of us ask, of anyone who has made a mistake, except “Just (y’know: as in “justice”) fix what got broke”?

    DynoDave here prolly wouldn’t agree — after all, My Mistakes are Just Mistakes, but YOU FUCKED UP and YOU’LL PAY PLENTY FOR IT (sigh)….

  186. D. Darling, u’re full of shit thinking I am Jealous. Of whom? I just don’t subsidizing millionaires with my money. That is what every dollar of health insurance does.

    Food is already Nationalized to the biggest processors. Cargil and some other mega corp. That is why it’s Corn all the time and why if you keep eating corn (syrup and all its other manifestations) that you’ll become envious of those Euro girls eating real butter and loads of good fat and food locally grown…and they all maintaining a size 5 into middle age. Who’s envious, babycakes? (I hate that word…yikes…I must be spewing…) But this is for your enjoyment as u’r mind isn’t open enough to visit some alternative viewpoint…?

    “Dear Congressional Democrats,

    Hi, how are you guys holding up? It really sucks that you have received so much criticism about the selection of the Frost family of Baltimore as an example of people deserving to benefit from the federal S-CHIP program.

    Just thinking about it makes me so mad, it’s enough to give me a heart attack, but that may not be covered in my health plan, so I’ve thought of a way to deflect further criticism. I’d like to offer my family. We really don’t qualify for S-CHIP but did in fact take a few hundred dollars of state money when faced with a medical crisis. When the Republicans hear our story, everyone will take back what they’ve said about the Frosts. And you don’t have to vet us; I’ll tell you all the bad choices I’ve made right up front. I’ll try to keep it light, since this is a humor column, after all.

    CONTINUED BELOW
    OK, here’s how it starts. In 1998, our son was born with VACTERL association, which is such an odd constellation of birth defects that our insurance company hadn’t even heard of it. At first they didn’t want to pay our benefits until they could establish it was a real thing. That was a laugh riot!

    When our son came home from the NICU, he had to be fed through a gastronomy tube, with his fluids aspirated so he wouldn’t choke on his own saliva. He had a colostomy bag that had to be monitored, and we were totally overwhelmed and underprepared to administer his care. Our private insurance, which we receive through our unions, didn’t cover home healthcare. On top of that, neither of us could stop working, as our benefits depend on our continued earning. So the first year alone, we spent a whooping $35,000 out of pocket to get people to come and relieve us.

    I’m not crafty and really suck at making colostomy bags, which you have to cut and paste on, sometimes twice a day, so we had to purchase balms to soothe his bloody rashes. That meant at least $2,000 in over-the-counter, unreimbursable costs, plus oatmeal baths to calm his skin, which added another $1,500.

    Here’s something really funny. Like the Frosts, our kid had to go to physical therapy, also. Some of his physical therapy didn’t qualify for benefits either, probably because it was only supposed to help him learn to do totally unnecessary things like swallow and learn to speak. Some of the therapists we went to didn’t even take insurance. The first year we spent at least $2,500 on that.

    I’ve heard the Frosts being accused (falsely) of frivolous spending like purchasing a granite kitchen counter, but I’ve never read that the Frosts are unstable people. But we are! When the bills for the series of surgeries and five medical specialists my son required started pouring in, my insurance company decided to decline to be his primary carrier, instead giving that honor to my husband’s plan. My insurance company sent me a threatening letter announcing that I personally needed to get his insurance to reimburse the thousands of dollars or it was going to hold me responsible for the fees and begin garnishing my wages.

    It was so confusing that sometimes I just paid the bills, even for covered services. That added maybe $3,000. That’s when I developed a twitch in my eye. Not long after that, when I was informed my son had a 95 percent chance of needing a new kidney, I lay down on the floor of the pediatric nephrology clinic at Cedar Sinai Hospital and cried. I kept crying. For a few weeks. This added about $10,000 to our bills for my personal therapy, reimbursed at 50 percent, and we invested approximately $2,000 in bottles of Oregon pinot noir for my husband.

    Then there were the costs you can’t even begin to quantify. No one reimburses the parking fees at the hospital: at least 150 visits averaging $11 a pop, approximately $1,650. There were times I had to run to a pharmacy and forgot my insurance card (another bad choice), adding maybe $1,500 in tubes and clamps.

    It wasn’t until it was determined that my son wasn’t getting enough food during the day and needed to be fed twice through the night–a process that for us included standing over his crib slowly pouring formula into his feeding tube over a twenty-minute period–that I turned to the state-contracted local Regional Center, which offered not only to fund some of his care but also to assist us in finding overnight nursing care. If you’ve ever tried to secure private nursing care, you know it is a full-time occupation. Ironically, when these nurses showed up, several demanded to be paid additional funds under the table! We received maybe $300 to $900 worth of services but had to pay out between $400 and $500 in cash to the caregivers. Again, I lost track, another bad choice.

    All said, even if you subtract our pinot noir bills, our expenses totaled more than the Frost’s combined income. That was just the first year.

    Anyhoo! The vetting process:

    As to the character of Graeme Frost’s parents, Halsey Frost is a skilled woodworker and furniture maker. I’m Jewish, so maybe I have this wrong, but wasn’t Jesus a carpenter? I, on the other hand, irresponsibly majored in massaging my fellow students and wearing vintage clothes in the acting school at NYU and worked in show business.

    Graeme’s mom has been sarcastically referred to as a saint in the conservative blogosphere, whereas I am truly degenerate. You can find pictures of me topless on the Internet, stills from a film titled Not Like Us (another bad choice; that movie was a dud!). On the other hand, my breasts are real, so no one can say that I frivolously spent money on plastic surgery.

    Now, I am not looking for S-CHIP funds and only tell this story to drive home how stressful and expensive caring for a child with chronic illness can be, even when you’re lucky enough to have the income to afford private care. But I’m just a mom who’s admittedly made bad choices.

    And while the right-wing blogosphere continues to trash the Frosts for their chiseling ways, here is a statement from my son’s doctor, Elaine Kamil, clinical director of pediatric nephrology at Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles:

    In over 30 years of caring for children with kidney disease I have never met a family with resources who have gamed the system to get health care coverage for their children. I think some people who have comfortable incomes lose perspective on just how expensive it is to provide for the basic needs of a family and a child with a chronic illness and think a $40,000 or $50,000 income is NOT low income. Some of the parents in my practice earn in that range and qualify for Healthy Families, one of the S CHIP programs. The father may have health insurance through his job, say, working at an auto body shop, but to add his family to the company’s health insurance plan costs several hundred dollars per month that the family just cannot afford. I am worried that some of my current patients will lose their coverage the consequences of which would be devastating. It is unconscionable that denying these children coverage is even on the table.

    See, I told you this would be funny. Good luck with the vote this week. Oh, and if you see any of those Republicans planning to support the President’s veto, ask if any of them are willing to donate a kidney to one of Dr. Kamil’s S-CHIP families. I’ll even remove it myself.

    Thanks, talk to you soon.

    Annabelle Gurwitch

  187. One thing that is funny to me is that the guy that has named himself datadave relies heavily on anecdotes for his “points”. Not a good start there dave. I think Darleen hits the nail on the head as datadave is just exhibiting classic signs of class warfare. Dave, as I said, I feel your pain, to a degree. What, other than socialism, as I ain’t going there, can be done to make self insurance more affordable for the self employed? Your comment #82 was worthless. Help a brother out, mein socialist mon frere. Ahh…the German and the French in one phrase. I have done my part here…

  188. OI

    and what datadave doesn’t consider (along with the writer of the long piece he cut-n-pasted) is that nationalized healthcare is RATIONED healthcare

    and all those deformed babies won’t be a worry to the system or that doctor at all

    since they’ll be euthanized

  189. it’s always ‘rationed’ public or private. I still propose Singapore’s as a model as our nation is so conservative, anything ‘socialized’ would scare but Singapore has ‘universal care’ and reduced costs goverment rationalized more efficient payments (taxes! not premiums, are more efficient, with less administrative costs and profiteering.

    trouble in paradise? compared to here? no much: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/05/18/singapores-healthcare-system-uniquely-singapore/

    http://www.geraldtan.com/medaffairs/ ..weird one but to show another perspective

    it’s a small country..but it’s ‘socialized’ system blows ours away: http://www.singaporeexpats.com/guides-for-expats/healthcare-in-singapore.htm

    Singapore’s well-established healthcare system comprises a total of 13 private hospitals, 10 public (government) hospitals and several specialist clinics, each specializing in and catering to different patient needs, at varying costs.

    Patients are free to choose the providers within the government or private healthcare delivery system and can walk in for a consultation at any private clinic or any government polyclinic. For emergency services, patients can go at any time to the 24-hour Accident & Emergency Departments located in the government hospitals.

    Singapore’s medical facilities are among the finest in the world, with well qualified doctors and dentists, many trained overseas.

    Pharmaceuticals are available from numerous outlets including supermarkets, department stores, hotels and shopping centres. Registered pharmacists work from 9am till 6pm, with some shops open until 10pm.

    Most hotels have their own doctor on 24-hour call. Contact the Front Office or Room Service for assistance. For an ambulance, dial 995.

    1. Expatriates and Foreigners
    2. Medisave, Medishield & Medishield Plus
    3. Prescriptions
    4. Private and Public Hospitals
    5. Specialist Centres

    Expatriates and Foreigners

    did I mention all this for less than half of what the USA’s system cost per person….who needs rationing? Let’s do Singapore’s model. Public And Private Health care!

  190. later, love. Time to get some beauty rest! Try a few new viewpoints. Read a little Galbraith perhaps?

  191. Krugman write with skill and pizzazz.

    I….really? Someone really, truly thinks that? I feel so lost.

  192. Looks like datadave was drinking with Randi Roades at the irish pub last night.

  193. “Time to get some beauty rest!”

    You could sleep as long as Rip Van Winkle and it still won’t do you any good.

  194. datadave – Feel free to move to Singapore. Please. If your child was sick, would you want the child treated in Uraguay, Singapore, Cuba, or the US?

  195. “Krugman write with skill and pizzazz. And he hits the mark. So that is why he is so Hated by the RightWingnuts.”

    If by “skill and pizazz” you mean “recycling left-wing talking points that he wouldn’t know without cue cards, and cynically supporting or condemning government spending depending upon whose in office,” you’d be exactly correct.

    He’s not hated by the right because he hits the mark, he’s held in contempt because he’s got the moral and political principle of a third-grader.

    Oh, and if Dr. Elaine Kamil is really that concerned about the affordability of health care, perhaps she should start by lowering the cost of her services to nearly nothing. That is what a person of principle would do, after all, given the finger-wagging lecture she provided in her statement.

    So really, datadave, why should we give a shit about anything you say–you’ve shown yourself to be someone of little substance and even less seriousness, so you will be treated as such. Not that you care, obviously, but please try to understand if I take your moral posturing with a grain of salt the size of your own unwarranted self-regard.

  196. For such a brilliant economist, Paul Krugman seems to consider himself an expert on nearly everything. Funny how that he so rarely, if ever, gets anything right about the economy.

  197. um, quick google search for Singapore healthcare system…..first result is this page. which, glancing at it, dd may be on to something, but he’s arguing it completely ass backwards. ie this phrase shows up several times:

    The key to Singapore’s efficient health care system is in its emphasis on the individual to make a significant contribution towards their own healthcare costs.

  198. it appears to be less socialized than the U.S. system, unless we’re using some other definition of “socialized”. which for me means, “paid for by the government”

  199. No, maggie, it means paid for by someone other than yourself. The dollars merely flow through the government.

  200. for reals? my music degree is so lettin’ me down.

  201. Dave. You know what a tax is, right?

  202. you don’t get it, Maggie. Those Public medical facilities and all Singaporeans are covered by a tax-based financial mechanism. Govt-funded. Not from INSURANCE. All Singaporeans pay a proportion of income tax to support the Public sector of medical care. A much lower proportion than US businesses that have to pay for a out-of-control privatized medical financing mechanism: private insurance and providers that charge whatever they feel like. Last time I checked a couple of years back:Singapore’s costs for health care: 6-7 percent of GNP; US’s costs for as mentioned here.. is for a very “profitable” privatized health care system: 14 percent and rising. We are paying double for less care. PERIOD.

    did I mention my little medical bill for a PA and a dental assistant and a nurse to stitch up a cut on my face after a skiing accident: (the ski patrol did the real work of stopping the bleeding…(one hour of their time…NO CHARGE…Yeah EMTs).. but the Hospital and (non-attending Physician) Charged 1800 dollars for a mere little stitch-up affair…) and were too lazy to send me a bill until monthes later. Sorry, if you think that is a Good way of doing business, you’re really sick!….no wonder there is 50 million without health insurance> Health care “providers” and their Enablers, the Private health insurance industry with it’s million of Nonworking, Un Productive Agents and paper pushers are Fleecing America. Wake Up, Lemmings!

    what am I dealing with? a bunch of wingnuts? Oh, it’s just more wanking Libertarian Lemmings watching their glorious Leader Bush sending the US off the cliff.

    Ho. Ho. Let’s go after IRAN next. but let Social Security and China prop up our Glorious Economy. You know that worker’s over the top social security payments are now reaching Parity with all Fed. Income tax. Another little fact that your Rush Limbaugh doesn’t mention…Social Security is currently WAY overfunded so it’s surplus is paying for the Iraqi Occupation. The Lower Middle class is being taxed to the helt to allow the really rich to pay only 15 per cent (most of their income is in capital gains) for federal tax and less than 1 percent for medical costs. Get it! Average people are being fleeced. (the argument that the top 10 percent pay most of the income tax doesn’t hold water…simply because they have 90 percent of the assets… and federal tax is a minority of taxes in America, thus they pay much less than the average person in “Per Centage”.. Don’t believe me….Warren Buffett and Bill Gates have stated several times over and over…. that their employees pay a much higher rate than they do… which is why they support a Inheritance Tax to keep equity in the system) And Eric Prince (founder and CEO of Blackwater) and your other “heroes” don’t pay much of a percentage of income for social security and they get all their income tax back in profits from your glorious leader(s).

    how to pay for universal health care? simple…remove the upper cap on income of earned income…and make all income at a Flat Rate applicable to a ‘super’Social Security tax…. and lower rates for working lower incomed people who are now paying much more in percentage than Hedge Fund managers. (leave progressvity in income tax….I don’t want to give everything to the flat taxers…)

  203. quite a few wealthy Democrats and Republicans are also suggesting increasing the Medicare program into a universal health care system..with an expansion of funding of Medicare to all people …but hopefully they the know that the upper income cap needs to be removed …as working people can’t keep paying 15 percent for social security while the wealthy pay a much lower rate….(only on income ‘earned’ under 90K or so…..and “experts” here can tell me if “unearned income” as in capital gains is applicable to social security…I think Not!_)

    I am beginning to wonder if you folks even have paid the IRS and filed personally….U just let your employer and accountant do all the thinking?

  204. datadave – Feel free to move to Singapore. Please. If your child was sick, would you want the child treated in Uraguay, Singapore, Cuba, or the US?

    a very snide and stupid question. I haven’t a choice. Either’d be okay if he was there? The US’s health care system by all stats is rather mediocre.

  205. gotta mosey off to work. Enjoy the cool autumn day. VERY Good time of year.

    Oh, just to offset complaints of my irresponsibility: I’ll continue to ski if it snows….w/o health insurance and pay what I can (and no more than I think it should) if I get injured. (non payers are off set by state subsidies to the hospitals already…in case you didn’t know that)

    “all we have to fear, is fear itself”….. (Repugs want you to feel very, very Afraid)

  206. I don’t think you can compare Singapore HC costs as a percentage of GNP to those of the US, dave. There are cultural differences that come into play, as well as (possibly) limitations imposed on expenditures by the system that don’t map into any corresponding mechanism in the US. So, here, we’d tend to be stupid and blow the bank on keeping Aunt Myrtle alive for another six months, whereas over there the system may elect to just let her die.

    You can look at Singapore as “good” or “bad” compared to the US in those terms, but they do, undeniably, make it “different”. IOW, you’re in effect presenting a case for that Singapore has a system that offers the same end result for less money, and I think that “same end result” part is highly questionable.

    Once again I risk being tedious and suggest that we already have, in effect, public healthcare in the US (and it’s a system that you really CAN’T get rid of), and suggest that maybe some energy put into how we might spend less money on HC, given that we’re going to spend it anyway, might be a discussion worth having.

  207. This datadave guy is an over the top absolute parody of the moonbat Left. BJ – Is that you?

  208. If Chuck Barris were in charge around here, anecdotedave would have gotten the gong long ago.

  209. JD:

    There’s no way in hell that I could produce as much hand wringing, anectdotal point-of-view and snarkiness as datadave. He is the real deal and I give him grudging props for the sheer volume of self-serving policy proclamation.

    Grudging being the key word. But, hey, why say something in a paragraph when a novella will do. Of course. this is the pot calling the kettle black! :-)

  210. Those Public medical facilities and all Singaporeans are covered by a tax-based financial mechanism. Govt-funded. Not from INSURANCE

    um, to a degree, that’s after they’ve run through their government mandated medical savings account. and yes, they have to purchase INSURANCE with that money. It strikes me a somewhat similar to the “privatized social security” folks over here are so ennamored of.

  211. It’s clear that Dave does not understand the interaction of healthcare and insurance. Gotta use up that deductible man! Pity.

    I think he also is suffering under some delusion that there is difference in cost to provide health care services to patients of different income levels. Is there? Bueller.

    I’m wondering whether he has any opinion on why emergency toom care is so expensive.

    Diased, dumb and liberal is no way to go through life.

  212. Pingback: This SCHIP has sailed

  213. Very late to the party, but I wonder… did anyone bother to read all of his screeds? I couldn’t see a point in even trying. Once I realized that even the shorter ones were pretty much devoid of content, I figured that the longer ones would be more of the same.

  214. I liked his capricious use of punctuation.

  215. drat! I meant Capitalization.

  216. Personally I liked how datadave feels it is his right to choose to pay whatever he feels like for services rendered. “I won’t pay because I’m datadave, and I know how to price your product better than you”. Dick.

  217. I guess I entertain the Children here….but they could do a dance or two themselves…like so you Like ever-rising health care costs, what is Your solution…ha, ha Deregulation.. .Laugh. Or better let’s bring in all the Third World’s doctors in so they could do whatever they please for a lot less money. HOW About tents for hospitals? Let’s hear your utterly predictable solutions: more of the same.

    Republicans and Conservative Democrats have been in power in the USA since Nixon was president. Krugman finally has caught up with me on these thoughts: the Politcal Class (being dominated by conservatives) has led us to this grand chasm of income inequality and ever rising “fixed” costs (oil, health care, insurance in general, real estate) being born by the working people of the USA. Like Krugman, I have remembrance of the days of relative equality that led to the rise of competitive ideas and freedom and civil rights that defined the later 50s and 60s. But the Reaction had set in (he thinks it was Reagan… but I think it was with Tricky Dick’s administration…and apparently we are on a downward spiral of higher fixed costs (consumer items are the only bright picture…thanks to Chinese labor) and rising income inequality. All the things we value today, whether it’s computers, cell phones, and a new appreciation of nature began in that era of relative equality. Not much new out there really except fine tuning of those ideas..(internet basically thought up during the 60s). Now, we have disincentives to invest, lower investments in science, and more of the brightest minds paying outrageous prices for higher education in order to go into the most lucrative (and least creative) careers: Law, Medicine, and Business. We have become a Oligarchic and Parasitic society.

    Now, we got you selfish narrow minded Libertarian circlejerkers advocating lower taxes..(blah, blah….like ‘freedom’s free?’especially for the inherited wealthy, and the parasitic class of non productive “professionals”. ); disinvestment into infrastructure; and the subcontracting and privatization of everything: thus BlackWater losing the war in Iraq almost singlehandedly. and an advocacy of torture and pissing on everyone that doesn’t agree with your simplistic economic viewpoint….characterized by Scrooge ala Dickin’s “Christmas Story”…. especially for the inherited wealthy, and the parasitic class of non productive “professionals”.

    “Personally I liked how datadave feels it is his right to choose to pay whatever he feels like for services rendered. “I won’t pay because I’m datadave, and I know how to price your product better than you”. Dick.”

    well, Dick. Have you ever tried to negotiate a price of services while in a doctor’s office? I don’t think so..but I have.. ..You just let your “insurance’ or mom and dad’s insurance do the negotiations. But then the advocates of private health care demand that “clients” are guilty of driving up health care costs…(the ol Oligarchic blame the victim argument)/// not knowing that health care providers refuse to negotiate. It’s taught by Med. schools that costs are not to be decused..that negotiation is “unprofessional”. And indeed, there are reasons to Not discuss price as it might affect the quality of care. So it should be taken out of the “market” as there is not a traditional supply and demand model that will work…thus other Nations in their wisdom would never copy our system as it allows too much inflation by providers who have no incentive to negotiate a price.

    on the microEconomic level, I’d like to see one of you cowards negotiate a price for health care. I have…but got a lot of resistance or usually in an emergency room situation an open invite for the supplier to charge whatever they felt like. (so Marketing in that situation does not equal buying a bag of groceries or any “product” or “service”…as the consumer hasn’t a clue as to how much the “provider” will charge. …

    thus in that situation I am not going to be a victim of extortion.

    with a tax-based system you’d know how much you’d pay for the cost of health care: a steady percentage of your income…not a lottery of every exponential growth which is how our bankrupt system of health works at the moment…..

    I donated to my local public radio…which is the last institution of any worth on the media…but i can guess how you feel about that one: close it down and let corporations give us Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern all the time. At least that money didn’t go down into some trust fund for another ‘second home’ like on Nantucket or somewhere.

    have fun digesting that one.. Hoot to you. Now for another Bean Burrito! (thx to one Randista here….time for a late lunch)

  218. um, yeah, cranky-d, selective skimming…. look for my name…. then my eyes glaze over when he starts in with “well I have to blah, blah, blah…I ….I…. I….”

  219. “Dickins”?

  220. “The entire dustup over SCHIP has never been about the Frost family — ..”

    I know this has been pointed out but this is preposterous.

    Michelle Malkin went all Weirdo Nancy Drew and went to the home, asked questions of the nerighbors. She went off on the family in a national column ..her little travels were not mentioned.

    Rush Limbaugh attacked the family (yes “attacked”..lied about/ gave half a story about…) based on the post of a Freeper, for God’s sake. He said the child lied..he blamed Democrats, but none the less, he called the child a liar. Mark Steyn said the boy was “fair game”. Powerline, Weekly Standardm etc… all went after trhe family, nost ..maybe all, before many hard facts were known.

    So this is bad way to start. Maybe you think if it’s not acknowledged, no one has to apologize. But they should.

  221. Republicans and Conservative Democrats have been in power in the USA since Nixon was president.

    Statements like this leave me almost speechless due to the depth and breadth of the inherent stupidity. That his words look like English, when written, is merely a coincidence.

    BlackWater losing the war in Iraq almost singlehandedly. and an advocacy of torture and pissing on everyone that doesn’t agree with your simplistic economic viewpoint….

    See my above remarks.

    So, datadave, I hope the hospital goes after you for every penny you owe them.

    Babbit – There is no reason, whatsoever, to apologize for pointing out the facts about the Frost parents, and their irresponsible actions.

  222. As I noted in another post, we “conservatives” can manage two questions at once: questions about expanding SCHIP as a policy debate, and questions about how the policy demand is being marketed (in this case, with the use of a 12-year-old already covered by the program, making the choice of him as the face of the push for an increase rather curious).

    Given that the second question is as valid as the first, Malkin looking into the family to see if they were indeed what the Dems were selling them as seems like, well, journalism. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, I doubt many Democrats would have a problem “asking questions” about, say, the sexuality of John Roberts’ 5-year old son.

    In fact, I believe we were all treated to a style-section attack on the family, courtesy of Givens in the WP.

    So again, SCHIP is not about the Frost family: turns out they are covered under the existing program, so they had no reason to complain. The marketing of the demand of an expansion of the program, however, DOES involve them — at least, insofar as they have be utilized by Democrats to put a human face on the policy request and attempted veto override.

    It is simply silly to suggest that we must accept at face value the testimony of a single family when the consequences are a back door into nationalized health care.

    And it turns out our concerns were well-founded: the Frost family, it turns out – though covered under SCHIP – have assets, and made choices, that leads to more general questions about the efficacy of programs that take away incentive for planning and responsibility.

    You can continue to carp and whine that the public face of a partisan marketing campaing was scrutinized, and I’ll continue to say that it’s too bad. Such is the nature of politics.

    But nobody (at least not here) “smeared” the family or the child.

    And the question of why the Dems would use them to begin with remains separate from the expansion of SCHIP.

    You have a problem with Rush Limbaugh, take it up with him. But you are wasting my time. I never voted for Limbaugh, and so far as I know, folks on your side of the aisle had little problem “smearing” him or O’Reilly recently. So forgive me if your outrage rings hollow.

  223. datadave – Because you have found it difficult to negotiate with a doctor’s office, that gives you the right to not pay them what you owe them? I wonder what lucky taxpayer is picking up the bill for you. Simple fact, just because negotiation has proven difficult does not give you any right to determine the appropriate costs for the services rendered. It is likely that the forms you filled out did not say “price subject to unilateral determination by patient”. I am glad I do not know you.

  224. In the name of god!! Somebody shut him the hell up!! The idiocy angel is circling the ceiling!!!

  225. Rusty – It is like a parade of pure, unadulterated stupidity. Aggressive ignorance personified.

  226. datadave is a parasitic asshole. Probably a lousy contractor too. Get a job, you fucking wanker.

  227. Markg8? I smoke also,but I get mine from a federally sanctioned reservation….Got news for you dumass,more and more smokers aren’t going to PAY, we’ll just decide to opt out.

  228. rusty, doofus. keep trying. get a job will ya?

    seems like I am the life of the party 229 posts? I am doing this to keep you all from spending too much time with on-line Porn.Damn, Conservatives want to close that down too!!! Want to save all those potential humans in d’jackalate (sic) Ban Abortions And WetDreams!.

    Please Contribute to Jeff so he won’t lose money on all your wanking on this site. I will try to edit more in compromise.

  229. Pingback: Hawaii Ending Universal Child Health Care After 7 Months Because Mamilies Were Dropping Private Coverage So Their Children Would Be Eligible For The Subsidized Plan | Right Voices

  230. Pingback: Issue Update: Healthcare « Thoughts on the Current Political Landscape

  231. Thank you very much your article.This article is very useful