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What Rough Beast?

Pundit Review Radio interviews Michael Yon, who is critical of, among other things, the Washington Post’s Kiki Munshi — whose descripton of conditions in Baqubah Yon calls “definitely untrue,” noting that “the people of Baqubah are ecstatic. This place has had remarkable turnaround.” For her part, Ms Munshi depicts Baqubah as a spot for suicide junkies, cadaver dogs, and perhaps Ebeneezer Scrooge, should he ever need a lesson from the Ghost of Failed Counterinsurgencies Past.

Blackfive compares Yon’s piece with Munshi’s here — prompting Ms Munshi to respond, and Yon to email a rejoinder.

That exchange, and additional thoughts from Black Five’s Uncle Jimbo, can be found here.

Listen to the Yon interview, read the various pieces, and then marvel at the endurance of confirmation bias and the malleability of narrative based on the decoding and re-encoding of (supposedly) identical signifiers.

Or, to put it another way: one man’s “very little fighting” is another man’s “Are those bullet holes? RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! JESUS, GOD, MAN! WHEN WILL CHUCK SCHUMER AND HARRY REID MAKE IT ALL STOP?”

(h/t CJ Burch)

66 Replies to “What Rough Beast?”

  1. TheGeezer says:

    What might one expect from the WaPo and a reporter named KiKi? Not that names are important, especially if your sources are now all dead or fled. The potential and real good guys, the ones with families who want to have a stable Iraq, education, and prosperity, remain behind, while those who could talk to reporters from WaPo without getting killed, beheaded, or cooked and served to their families as lunch, are dead or fled. WaPo: another – still another! – example of American journalistic crap. Journalism with a purpose: to help defeat the United States.

  2. Dan Collins says:

    It’s so hard getting good stringers these days.

  3. timb says:

    If you had read the link, Geezer, you would see Kiki is a 20 year veteran of the Foreign Service, specializing in democracy building and reconstruction. She retired in 2002, because she thought the upcoming war was folly. She was asked BY HER COUNTRY to come out of retirement and use her skill set in Iraq to help re-build Iraq. She served for ten months in Baqubah. She IS not a reporter.

    Jesus, do some reading.

    As far as Mr. Yon and she are concerned, I don’t understand why you guys like Yon so much. He’s clearly one-sided and biased (“WE” rolled into Baqubah). I’m as American as the next guy, but this guy has no objectivity, which is why his stories aren’t taken seriously. I’m not saying he’s lying, only that he’s no more of a reporter than Jeff is. He is a blogger/reporter and he has an agenda.

    Ms. Munshi’s letter is interesting. It highlights what a weird mess Iraq is in, as there aren’t two sides, but about 40 sides. Whether you support the war or not, her essential points are pretty evident: Iraq needs a political solution and the US and Iraqi forces often use a sledgehammer when sweet talk would be better. And, despite Tom Delay’s meteoric career sweet-talk and compromise are the engines of a political solution.

    That, of course, doesn’t preclude killing the bad guys. It means you try to limit how many people call themselves “bad guys.”

    Seriously, Geezer, it took me three minutes to scan the links and comments at Blackfive. You could have done the same.

  4. Rob Crawford says:

    If you had read the link, Geezer, you would see Kiki is a 20 year veteran of the Foreign Service, specializing in democracy building and reconstruction. She retired in 2002, because she thought the upcoming war was folly.

    Which, frankly, means her opinions should be taken with a block of salt.

  5. oh yes, much better to run with a column from someone that hasn’t been there since January. Why believe the word of some guy that’s still there? I think it’s been mentioned here many a time that we’d have less objection to reporters that were open about their biases one way or the other.

  6. A. Pendragon says:

    I rather wonder how Tim would view Ernie Pyle – so one-sided in his reporting on the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Nihongo forces, always empathizing with GIs ……

  7. rickinstl says:

    “He’s clearly one-sided and biased (”WE” rolled into Baqubah).”

    He uses “we” because he’s there, rolling into Baqubah.

    “I’m as American as the next guy,”

    Only if the next guy is Howard Zinn.

  8. Jeffersonian says:

    If you had read the link, Geezer, you would see Kiki is a 20 year veteran of the Foreign Service, specializing in democracy building and reconstruction. She retired in 2002, because she thought the upcoming war was folly. She was asked BY HER COUNTRY to come out of retirement and use her skill set in Iraq to help re-build Iraq. She served for ten months in Baqubah. She IS not a reporter.

    I tend to agree. Now the question is why the WaPo would commission an article that purports to describe real-time conditions on the ground in Baqubah with a person who not only has a stated axe to grind, but hasn’t been to the place she’s writing about in over six months.

  9. dicentra says:

    It means you try to limit how many people call themselves “bad guys.”

    As if we were able to control how other people react to us, given the various factors that influence their decision-making process, such as it is.

    Timb must suffer from “Masochistic Omnipotence Syndrome,” which is functionally equivalent to the battered woman who is sure her husband will quit hitting her if only she can stop being such a bad wife.

  10. OldTexasTurkey says:

    awwwww Timmah. had to play hackey sack by himself at in the deserted parking lot of LIVE Earth USA this weekend?

  11. Jeffersonian says:

    Can anyone imagine the WaPo or NYT publishing a story dateline Normandy, June 15, 1944 describing the steely-eyed Wehrmacht artillerymen that will surely grind any invading army to bits under the withering fire of the guns that bristle from the bunkers that line the shore there, written by a guy that is in Chicago but who once walked through St. Lo?

  12. Fat Man says:

    “Kiki is a 20 year veteran of the Foreign Service, specializing in democracy building and reconstruction.”

    Which means that she is an anti-American leftist hack. The State department is the last place in the world you ould find a patriotic American.

  13. Fat Man says:

    would or could would be equally apt

  14. Mr. Boo says:

    “would or could would be equally apt”

    would or could would be equally apt here as well

  15. N. O'Brain says:

    “I’m as American as the next guy…”

    No you’re not.

  16. B Moe says:

    “…sweet-talk and compromise are the engines of a political solution…”

    Just make sure they are the age of consent before you sweet talk and compromise them:
    http://raforum.org/display1.asp?func=display&resid=391&tree=51

  17. Sean M. says:

    I’m as American as the next guy, but this guy has no objectivity, which is why his stories aren’t taken seriously.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

    Oh, God, the irony is just too fucking delicious.

    Please, somebody, call the paramedics. I’m afraid my head’s gonna asplode.

  18. Rob Crawford says:

    Funny thing is, timmah appear to holds up Kiki’s status as not a reporter as a good thing, but denigrates Yon for essentially the same thing.

  19. timb seems to have a standard for what objectivity a reporter must have that he dragged out of the closet for a one-time appearance.

    tw: provided Albert – I did not, I only hold for personal use.

  20. JD says:

    It means you try to limit how many people call themselves “bad guys.”

    I round this quote especially delicious. I guess if all of the bad guys just called themselves good guys, all of the problems in the region would be resolved.

  21. happyfeet says:

    Sounds like Kiki had second thoughts and decided she’d better get a little Iraq action on her resume so she can score a nice appointment if a Democrat gets elected. This oped is her calling card.

  22. timb says:

    Well, we have a comment string from a bunch of people who have not been to Iraq since January and who are not there now claiming one person is telling the truth and another is not.

    Sophistry of the highest order.

    I neither said Yon was correct or incorrect, only that he lacked objectivity. That does not make him wrong. Nor, is Ms. Munshi’s story proved correct.

    Given the silliness of 90% of “thinking about Iraq” that occurs here: from RTO’s “We only lose if WE give up” to the empty “Everyone who reports from Iraq must be wrong” to the President’s ridiculous statement “We’ve got to fight them over there or they’ll be here” (quick O’Brain, check under your chair for a terrorist) to Pablo’s “WE’RE STILL IN GERMANY” to the far more reasoned argument Jeff makes (It’s broken and it ain’t gonna be fixed once we leave), I would have thought that the partisan hacks of PW could put their knives away for a moment to read what the hell she wrote. She went to Iraq because she felt a moral imperative to help those people and her country fix it.

    She thinks we need to be in Iraq, clowns, and try to help them. She was describing ways the American presence in Iraq hurts itself, i.e. the changing of battalions and strategies, which is caused by our rotation system. She is describibg how people were trying to make the place better until the Iraqi government sent in a corrupt and dishonest Shia general.

    It’s a similar tale to the story of Haditha. We pulled our troops out of Haditha twice to fight in Falujah. Both times the folks who working with us were killed by insurgents. Who the heck wants to work with us now? We’ve taken a group of people who might have been pragmatic allies and through a lack of troops and inconsistent policies changed the pragmatists into a group of people who don’t want to help us.

    Had any of you read her letter about the mayor, who has been detained and “questioned”, then you would know how you turn pragmatists into “bad guys.”

    The Haditha story from Col Bing West is detailed here http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200610/haditha

    You guys and your simple black/white mindset is puzzling. You are supposedly so interested in the war, yet none of you takes the time to understand the difference between success and failure. You all just rush to blame on those evil reporters and their stringers and the Left and their cowardice.

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” Hamlet, Scene 1, Act 5

  23. Jeff G. says:

    I’m pretty sure you don’t know what sophistry is, timmy. But if it helps, try looking at your own arguments and go from there.

  24. N. O'Brain says:

    “Given the silliness of 90% of “thinking about Iraq”

    And you call what YOU post “Thinking”?

    “… that occurs here: from RTO’s “We only lose if WE give up”

    Which is exactly correct, and your putdown merely displays your ignorance of history and the military.

    “… to the empty “Everyone who reports from Iraq must be wrong” to the President’s ridiculous statement “We’ve got to fight them over there or they’ll be here” (quick O’Brain, check under your chair for a terrorist)”

    [looks under chair]

    Nope, no terrorists here.

    They’re all dead and rotting in Baqubah.

    Look up the term “honey trap” and learn something.

    “… to Pablo’s “WE’RE STILL IN GERMANY”

    We’re NOT?

    Who knew?

    Ah, well, I’m bored with toying with the resident retard.

  25. timb says:

    Pot meet Mr. Goldstein.

    Did you address that “point”, because all the posters were busy looking the damn word up?

  26. timb says:

    O’Brain, does this mean the voices in your head are finally quiet? I told you if you drink enough, you would drown them.

    If the terrorists are all dead, clown, then who crashed an SUV into the Glasgow airport? Was that a college prank gone awry? You are a silly man

  27. JD says:

    Do people really feel a moral imperative to participate in a folly ?

  28. N. O'Brain says:

    “#

    Comment by timb on 7/9 @ 12:30 pm #

    O’Brain, does this mean the voices in your head are finally quiet? I told you if you drink enough, you would drown them.

    If the terrorists are all dead, clown, then who crashed an SUV into the Glasgow airport? Was that a college prank gone awry? You are a silly man”

    That’s rich, coming from as ignorant as you.

  29. N. O'Brain says:

    ARRRGHHHHH!!!!!

    PIMF

    …coming from someone as ignorant as you.

  30. OldTexasTurkey says:

    Timmah – where in the half article you linked to, does it support your assertion of de-pragmatism of Iraqi’s?

  31. Fred says:

    timb’s giving a sophistry CLINIC on this thread. Absurd. He’s not worth responding to unless you’ve got a jones for beating up on intellectual 90lb weaklings.

  32. Rob Crawford says:

    You are supposedly so interested in the war, yet none of you takes the time to understand the difference between success and failure.

    Success — the end result is one that favors our interests.

    Failure — the end result is not one that favors our interests.

    I’m sure you’ll disagree. Because you have nothing but your disagreement.

  33. Adel Hamad says:

    Come on guys! Be good to Timmy! He helped this young freedom fighter out! He’s on my side!

  34. B Moe says:

    “the President’s ridiculous statement “We’ve got to fight them over there or they’ll be here” (quick O’Brain, check under your chair for a terrorist)”

    “If the terrorists are all dead, clown, then who crashed an SUV into the Glasgow airport?”

    Which is it timmy? You can’t have both.

  35. Pablo says:

    “Kiki is a 20 year veteran of the Foreign Service, specializing in democracy building and reconstruction.”

    Funny, I heard that was impossible to do. Yet Kiki specializes in it?

  36. just a thought timmy, in reading her article, her point about troop rotation is one I’ve heard before, which, fine, how do you fix it other than putting an “undue” hardship on troops and making them stay longer? OTOH whose to say her view isn’t a bit skewed thanks to info she’s being fed from former Baathists? I mean if you’re going to get all pissy about Yon you might want to apply some of the same critical analysis to Ms. Munshi.

  37. No, Maggie, that is the last thing that timb intends to do.

  38. Bender Bending Rodriguez says:

    “She went to Iraq because she felt a moral imperative to help those people and her country fix it.”

    And you actually bought that line? Wow. Your naivety = a 55-gallon drum full of newborn kittens.

  39. Major John says:

    “She went to Iraq because she felt a moral imperative to help those people and her country fix it.”

    Unlike the base motives of Mr. Yon, or any of us stooges and dupes in the Armed Forces…

    The DoS folks I have worked with fall into any of several categories – idealists, ticket punchers, excitement seekers, people doing the best job they can while also looking out for themselves, jaded, enthusiastic, etc. In short, just like a lot of other places. However, once back from something like this, to allow oneself to be used in the manner that Ms. Munshi has makes me suspect that she might not be joining this debate with fully clean hands or motives. Other than that, the journalistic technique of trotting someone out to write something from a present tense pov, and they have been gone for sometime is kind of shoddy.

  40. narciso says:

    Timmo, you’re a wonder, you use the fact that units like the 3/2 went away to Fallujah, briefly as an argument for abandoning Iraq altogether. Yes, the’re all dead because they went way for 6 monthes or so; this is not unlike what happened in Fallujah proper, when we abandoned it, after the
    1st Marine offensive, and let the Republican Guard heavy Fallujah Brigade in charge; which let it become a SAlafi merry go round and training camp.

  41. timb says:

    Narcisco, I think your post post is in English….what you and Maggie address is the elephant in the room re: Iraq. We do NOT have enough people in country to maintain the presence required for COIN operations. We have no allies (come August, the English will be gone) and we have no reliable in country allies (the Iraqi military seems to be a combine the wonders of Bosnian Serb ethnic cleansing with the 1974 ARVN’s ability to fight). The problems with our occupation are thus structural and one more reason while the occupation needs to be stopped and the troops redeployed.

    Major John, I do expect more from you than pussy little shots like the ones above. I understand duty. Why would you assume because some lady felt it, that I believe it is exclusive to her? The more you type snarkily the more you start to sound like Col. Flagg from MASH (http://www.bestcareanywhere.net/Flagg.htm).

    As for Maggie other’s points, you don’t think deployments are “undue” on reservists? Your last point is ridiculous by the way. I assume you read her story. If so, you would note that the mayor was not a Baathist. Even if he were, US policy at present requires the Iraqi government to allow most Baathist’s back into the government. Lastly, the people she knew weren’t insurgents until a combination of short-sighted policies and the main structural problem….see above…. MADE them insurgents (Ms. Munshi speculates. For all she knows, they are held in Bagram Air Base and being questioned…yes, I know Bagram is in Afghanistan and I also know it is where the CIA and US armed Forces do most of their fun questioning).

    There is more to one side in Iraq and when you figure it out, you will be happier.

    Lastly, B Moe’s incoherence: IF we are fighting them over there, so they don’t come over there, THEN there should be no terrorists attacking the coalition partners. Since there are attacks, then the “if/then” summation provided by the President is not operative. Seriously, a 12 year old would have understood that.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, folks, the US occupation in Iraq is nearing its conclusion and you can live your whole life knowing it wasn’t the policy that was hopelessly fucked up, but it was your countrymen, who sided against their own nation and decided they liked Al Queda and t ruined your fun victory parade. You can read books on how the right wing in Germany claimed to be stabbed in the back after 1918 and you can learn to love that narrative.

  42. JD says:

    Let us all bathe in the reflected glory from the brilliance that is timmah.

  43. timb says:

    You need some basking. Maybe the osmosis will raise your IQ to 100

    –OR–

    show me where I’m wrong, JD. That’s just it: there are too few troops and you guys blame the media and the “Left” for losing George’s war

  44. As for Maggie other’s points, you don’t think deployments are “undue” on reservists?

    no.

    Your last point is ridiculous by the way. I assume you read her story. If so, you would note that the mayor was not a Baathist.

    yes, but she says that that is who she is currently in contact with and to think that they may not have an agenda is kinda silly.

    Even if he were, US policy at present requires the Iraqi government to allow most Baathist’s back into the government. Lastly, the people she knew weren’t insurgents until a combination of short-sighted policies and the main structural problem….see above…. MADE them insurgents (Ms. Munshi speculates)

    as do you and the rest of us. so? You still haven’t demonstrated that you have a firm grasp of the current strategy. you keep flogging the “WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE” line (and yet the Gens. on the ground have received the people they asked for), ignoring that we don’t have to cover every square mile and there are Iraqi forces involved as well. (granted some of them aren’t working as well as hoped, but gee, everything you do goes according to plan or for that matter any military op in history? but we’re still training and bringing more on line) and you refuse to give things time even after we keep pointing out that the average COIN op needs 8 to 10 years.

    Why do you have such a problem accepting that most people would consider someone currently on the ground to be a bit more accurate than some lady that testified before Congress that she retired partly to avoid dealing with Bush’s Iraq policy and hasn’t been in country for over half a year?

  45. timb says:

    to whom am I speaking?

  46. Kirk says:

    My guess is, timb, that you are speaking to yourself most of the time. Who else will listen that often?

  47. timb says:

    Or that RTO, specialist in patriotism is using his wife’s account again and you, Kirk, are speaking out of your ass. I imagine you’re familiar with it, so do keep it going.

  48. JD says:

    timmah – you questioning someone’s intelligence is like Michael Moore calling someone a lardass.

    Where are you wrong? Let’s start with the idea that there are not enough people on the ground to succeed. That is based on a premise that we are not succeeding, which not only I, but many do not accept. Just because you wish it to be does not make it so. If we are to “listen to the Generals”, which was the talking point du jour for the left for a while, they have all that they have asked for. Do you now think you know better how to prosecute this war than the Generals on the ground?

    Major John was not being snarky to you, he was pointing out how the “moral imperative to serve” lauded for this supposedly objective lady is not applied, or acknowledged, in those that share differing political perspectives than yourself. When someone you agree with says something like that, much like Kerry, you attempt to use that as a shield from criticism.

    We are fighting them over there, so we do not have to fight them over here. Seems reasonable to me. Nothing in that implies that the terrorists will not continue their efforts to fight us, on our soil, or that of our allies. It just indicates that the preferred battlefield is in Fallujah rather than Omaha. This stuff really should not have to be explained, at least not to an allegedly sentient being.

  49. Rusty says:

    If I get this right, Tim is telling us that we should abandon the Iraqis to their fate and anybody that fought or supported this war are a bunch of suckers. Do I have that right?

  50. um, timb, RTO always uses his own handle. I link to his blog(I’m assuming that’s where this is coming from) because I post there occasionally and my blog is for kitty pictures and random things I think my mom will find particularly amusing. Why are you so anxious for a beating from my husband? or are you just consoling yourself for having been beaten by a girl? okay, you’re going back in the ignore folder because you’ve proven yet again that you can’t keep from being personal and getting hysterical.

  51. RTO Trainer says:

    If I get this right, Tim is telling us that we should abandon the Iraqis to their fate and anybody that fought or supported this war are a bunch of suckers. Do I have that right?

    That’s the standard recorded message regularly broadcast from that station.

    TW: Exchange that for $1.50 and you can get a cup of coffee.

  52. timb says:

    Maggs, as wrong about your husband’s proclivities on the internet as you are about politics.

    JD, the adults are talking here, so go away.

    Maggie, your post was dismal. I’ll remind my nephews the next time your COIN operation sends their dad away that deployments aren’t hard on reservists.

    Meanwhile, your substantive argument: “you keep saying there aren’t enough people” is akin to the woman who keeps wondering why she is soaking wet and gets mad every time someone points out she’s wet because it’s raining and she’s standing outside.

    Yes, Maggie, your husband and your grand assertions, pre-Surge, to the effect that “yes, current COIN doctrine requires one soldier or Marine to 50 civilians and our surge will place 150,000 in Baghdad (a city of 6 million), but that difference will be made up by the Iraqis,” proved to be as wrong as everything the pro-war side has said about Iraq. The Iraqis don’t have 150,000 reliable troops and WE DO NOT HAVE MEN AND WOMEN to do the job. Repeating the truth does not make it less of a truth.

    After all, the reason Mr. Yon is in Buqaba is because the insurgents who left Baghdad went there and necessitated the US Army’s removal of a brigade from Baghdad to shore up Diyala.

    As for your baldly false assertion that the “generals haven’t requested any more troops”, I refer you to the pre-war statements of one Eric Shineski re: troop levels and the exoneration of him by General Abazid before Congress on 11/15/06 (http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/Press%20Briefings/Nov%2015%2006%20-%20Senate%20Armed%20Services%20Committee%20Holds%20Hearing%20on%20Current%20Situation%20in%20Iraq%20and%20Afghanistan.htm)

    Now, I don’t have your expertise of parroting whatever my spouse says, but it seems to me General Abazaid was a commander on the ground and confirmed more troops were needed at the outset of occupation.

    Further, it would be bad for one’s career to opine publicly about the lack of troops and generals like their careers. The fact that you know that leads me to believe that line about “generals on the ground” came to you in a dream you had about Karl Rove.

    Your next to last point highlights the inanity of your entire rebuttal and comes directly from the mouth of your husband. “The average COIN operation takes…blah blah”. Let’s debunk this in two ways: first, in the real world, where I live, there is no 8 to 10 years for THIS COIN operation. This operation is ending in the next year and none of your rhetoric is going to prevent that. But, as an idea, it is a disingenuous comment. You can’t cherry-pick the doctrine, Maggie. You can’t say “look, it says right here that the average COIN takes 8 to 10 years” when you’ve already rejected the troop levels required to meet that objective. You can’t have it both ways. Either you support Kilcullen and Petraeus’s COIN strategy (which means you need a lot more troops) or you reject it. Pick a side.

    As for Mr. Yon, I have stated repeatedly that he is not objective, but I don’t believe he’s lying. Mr. Yon is the person who disputed the version of events told by Ms. Munshi. Is it possible neither is lying and both are correct? Sure could be. Your assertion that she is wrong and he is right, because you like his politics and cheerleading, is just not provable. I maintain, as always, that I have no reason to believe one over the other.

    And, now for the personal, “oh, please don’t ignore me, Maggie. I’m just a poor little lefty that needs the guidance of a warmonger and his wife. Guidance that throughout the 8 months or so I have had these discussions has been as wrong about Iraq as Rumsfeld was.”

    Thanks for the talk. Nothing is better in the morning than arguing with a dead-ender.

  53. maggie katzen says:

    slowly, since i’m at work….
    Gen Casey on average insurgency….

    “GEN. CASEY: I think so. But I mean, as you know, defeating insurgencies takes time. The average insurgency — the average counterinsurgency in the 20th century was about nine years, so it takes time to snuff out the insurgency. And also, I think you know, most insurgencies are defeated by political means rather than necessarily by military means.”

    link:http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2263

  54. maggie katzen says:

    I didn’t say deployments were easy. But undue usually implies not deserved or expected. which I think most reservists know what to expect when they sign the contract.

  55. JD says:

    Use of the retro-spect-o-scope makes decision making fairly easy, no, timmah?

    Is General Petraeus requesting more troops than he has been given, or has he been denied his requests? Until that point, timmah is just talking out his ass, and asserting a level of knowledge that he does not have.

    Just because you are a petulent little child, demanding immediate satisfaction, does not change the fact that some things take time. You wanting this to be over now, and your willingness to walk away from our commitment to the Iraqi people, tells us all we need to know about you.

  56. maggie katzen says:

    oh more clarification

    undue: 1. excessive or very inappropriate: going beyond the limits of what is proper, normal, justified, or permitted

    Reservist deployment is none of these.

  57. maggie katzen says:

    Now, I don’t have your expertise of parroting whatever my spouse says, but it seems to me General Abazaid was a commander on the ground and confirmed more troops were needed at the outset of occupation.

    so what? do you know how many times the numbers have changed? and how different current operations are from four years ago? how is this relevent at the present?

  58. JD says:

    Maggie – It is not relevant, and he knows that. Deflect. Divert. Obfuscate. Make shit up. That is what he brings to the table.

  59. maggie katzen says:

    Your assertion that she is wrong and he is right, because you like his politics and cheerleading, is just not provable.

    except that he was in country when he was writing and she wasn’t and hasn’t been since January yet she somehow “knows stuff” and writes a column for the WAPO implying she has some current experience there. this has been pointed out to you several times, but she agrees with YOUR politics so you’ll make an exception for her.

  60. timb says:

    JD, again, this does not concern you. You can’t even click on a link.

    Maggie, you said no generals, I indicated there are two generals.

    While we’re talking Gen. Casey, can you show me any political progress. Oops.

    From speaking with reservists, whose intelligence you denigrate, they did not expect stop loss orders,
    15 month deployments, and less time at home before a future deployment.

    I’ll come back later to read what you and RTO come up, since you’re at work. You can take your time
    and post something thoughtful. Let’s be perfectly honest, I think you and RTO are woefully wrong
    and somewhat intellectually inconsistent, but you are sincere interesting folks and, when not typing
    something silly, I do enjoy discussing things with you. Plus, your husband is a bit too willing to spill
    blood for my tastes, but only a fool would miss that he cares about his country.

    One last thing, Maggie, I have typed my “plan for Iraq” at least three times since I began posting here.
    Please either do me the favor of looking for it in the archives or just making assumptions about what I think US
    forces should do in Iraq, since you would not know what I think (hint: it’s not leave Iraq tomorrow).

    With that said, enjoy your work.

  61. maggie katzen says:

    uh, when have I asked what “your plan” was? you’re confusing me with someone that’s “not concerned” in this. I know, we discussed “your plan” ages ago, and I provided citations back then too. *sigh* when I say no generals I mean “generals currently on the ground” sorry for not clarifying that… sure you could read their minds and say “of course they value their jobs, they’re not going to complain!” we’ll just have to dissagree. you could have even cited Gen Lynch’s recent statements for something more current. but that’s more in relation to Iraqi forces, which as I noted have been somewhat lacking.

    as far as reservists go, “welcome to the military!” I’m not insulting their intelligence. it’s all in their contract. you sign your name and take your chances. they’re free to whine about i guess and the Army in particular is infamous for it (whining) ;D

  62. timb says:

    > Okay. Dang, I thought we was having us a talk

  63. timb says:

    Okay, I guess not. I was hoping for a rejoinder re: the troops argument. You know like the one you made
    before the Surge started and bright people like me told you there weren’t enough and you insisted the
    Iraqis would take up the slack. Since that never happened, could you explain how we just need more time?

  64. Merovign says:

    Oh, damn. I don’t know if it’s the day before the refill or what, but Timmy is exceptionally “gone” here.

    I wonder if he actually thinks he’s being coherent or just doesn’t really care? Either way, it’s kind of sad. I hope he’s not like that in person, or I’m afraid he’s very lonely. Which is also sad.

    Take care of yourself, Timmy. Take some time to get centered, visit some friends, talk about anything but politics.

    It’ll get better.

    Is it true that you’re a talking monkey? I keep hearing that. I mean, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  65. Rusty says:

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    RELEASE No. 20070711-12
    July 11, 2007

    Iraqi Police detain alleged mortar, sniper cell leader in Samarra
    Multi-National Corps – Iraq PAO

    SAMARRA, Iraq – Iraqi Police Forces conducted an intelligence driven operation in Samarra July 9 and detained an individual allegedly responsible for running a mortar and sniper network in Samarra.

    With Coalition Forces along as advisors, Iraqi Forces seized a large amount of ammunition, four sniper rifles, parts for sniper rifles, various mortar rounds, material for making improvised explosive devices, two black masks, and documents.

    The capture and detainment of this individual will reduce the amount of sniper systems in Samarra and the number of sniper and mortar attacks on Iraqi and Coalition Forces.

    Coalition Forces were present as advisers and no Iraqi or Coalition Forces members were injured.

    And another

    Multi-National Corps – Iraq
    Public Affairs Office, Camp Victory
    APO AE 09342

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    RELEASE No. 20070711-11
    July 11, 2007

    Extortion network shut down in Rawah, insurgents detained in Hit
    Multi-National Corps – Iraq PAO

    FALLUJAH, Iraq – Iraqi Security Forces conducted a series of intelligence driven operations in Western Iraq July 9, resulting in the detainment of four individuals allegedly responsible for running an extortion network and two individuals suspected in planning attacks against Coalition Forces.

    In the vicinity of Rawah, Iraqi police seized numerous documents and detained four insurgent extortion suspects without incident. The detained individuals were allegedly engaged in extorting protection money from Government of Iraq and Coalition Forces contractors and using the funds to finance al Qaeda in Iraq activities.

    During a separate operation in the vicinity of Hit, two suspected insurgents were detained after Iraqi Police received information tying them to recently seized weapons caches. According to independent sources, the individuals were planning an attack against Coalition Forces and allegedly stored the caches, which included suicide belts, propane tank improvised explosive devices and 60mm mortar tubes, on a farm in the area. They are believed to be part of an insurgent group responsible for a series IED and small arms fire attacks against Coalition Forces.

    The capture and detainment of these individuals will disrupt insurgent activities in Western Iraq as well as their ability to interfere with the Iraqi government and destabilize the al Anbar area.

    Coalition Forces were present as advisers during both operations and no Iraqi Security Forces or Coalition Forces members were injured.

    So. Which is it?

  66. timb says:

    Merovign, I understand that reading is not your strong suit, but I made a number of salient points in this thread re: Iraq and the failure of the Iraqi government.
    The fact that you cannot understand them is sad, but par for the course

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