December 26, 2013

ObamaCare could resemble Medicaid [Darleen Click]

Well, duh.

Those signing up for private health care coverage on the ObamaCare exchanges may be in for an unpleasant surprise — they’ll have insurance, but they might have trouble getting the doctor to see them.

As hundreds of thousands enroll for coverage beginning Jan. 1, analysts are warning that the plans are likely to give them access to fewer doctors and hospitals. So much so, they warn, that the system could begin to resemble Medicaid, the health care program for low-income Americans.

“Indeed, I think this will eventually be like Medicaid,” said Merrill Matthews, director of the Council for Affordable Health Insurance.

Matthews said the only way many insurers are going to be able to control costs is by “simply clamping down on the amount they are willing to pay.”

Just as with Medicaid, analysts warn that if payments get too low, many doctors might start refusing to see patients. That will leave more and more patients jockeying to see fewer and fewer doctors.

Come on, Proggies, tell me how you’re going to solve the problem of doctors and hospitals refusing to take ObamaCare? I mean, without force.

Posted by Darleen @ 9:46am
172 comments | Trackback

Comments (172)

  1. And the “No Shit, Sherlock” award for 2013 goes to Merrill Matthews!

  2. Come on, Proggies, tell me how you’re going to solve the problem of doctors and hospitals refusing to take ObamaCare? I mean, without force.

    I could see the “progressive” (sic) Commiecrats trying something like a milder form of Chairman Mao’s “barefoot doctors”, that is, having less qualified but much cheaper people do the primary care. Already Nurse Practitioners and Physicians Assistants are taking over general practitioner duties where once only an M.D. would do. Next step would be to bring the RN’s into it?

  3. “Come on, Proggies, tell me how you’re going to solve the problem of doctors and hospitals refusing to take ”

    Quack quack quack. Acupuncture, aromatherapy, stress management, positive thinking, meditation, reflexology, photo-therapy, preventative diet, powdered animal dicks, and other cheap placebo manipulations.

  4. Oh, they’ve already said that they plan to tie licenses to practice medicine, prescribe drugs, etc. to whether or not the doctor accepts GovernmentCare in all its’ forms…..

  5. Quack quack quack. Acupuncture, aromatherapy, stress management, positive thinking, meditation, reflexology, photo-therapy, preventative diet, powdered animal dicks, and other cheap placebo manipulations.

    This too.

    On the upside, it will be the ultimate test of the “Alternative Medicine” practitioners and advocates, some of whom are surprisingly Right-leaning.

  6. It’s a good thing we have stevereeno around to tell us we’re wrong, that he’ll have no problem seeing a doctor when he gets around to it, that we’re all a bunch of idiots who don’t know how to run a business because a doctor would never decide that taking on 0care patients wasn’t worth the money.

    Otherwise I might start to worry.

  7. and this is before Paul Ryan floods the system with millions of illegals, yes?

  8. Shhh. Let Pajama Boy stay on the other thread arguing with Drumwaster.

    Poor, stalwart Drumwaster, sacrificing his sanity so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves in these other threads.

    We should chip in and buy him something. Anybody know what kind of booze he likes? Er, that he would buy for himself, that is?

  9. I don’t drink, McGehee, so have a dram with me in mind… ;)

  10. He likes cheap booze, wink wink nudge nudge

  11. That would have been better said a two minutes earlier

  12. We’ll just have to recruit doctors from 3rd world countries. Those poor folks don’t really need them do they? They have folk remedies and midwives and such.

  13. Drumwaster, and doesn’t drink? Waste of a good hypocorism, that!

  14. I saw this line from Larry Correia today regarding arguing with Liberals on the internet:

    Have you grown frustrated because arguing with the willfully ignorant is like repeatedly punching a really dumb cactus?

  15. Well, there must be some other gentle vice Drumwaster engages in that we can reward?

    Sugar? Cigars? Baby seal leather boots?

  16. - One thing everyone agrees on, even the braindead Progressives, is OCare is toast if the youth don’t sign up and they’re not going for it so far. The tendency is for new medacare/medicaid signups which we didn’t have any need for OCare to accomplish.

    - So far the box score for OCare is record numbers of lost policies, mostly additions to the SS med roles, and not even close to the goals for new insurees.

    - On top of which costs are going up in almost every venue.

    - Hellofajob Barry!

  17. I’m certainly willing to have many a dram with Drumwaster in mind, though after much more than a few I’d be lucky to have much of a mind to keep him in.

    Might be better in the long run to do the boots.

  18. So Bumblefuck gets to hide in Hawaii on the tax payers nickle, avoiding the OCare train wreck a few more days/weeks.

  19. Well, there must be some other gentle vice Drumwaster engages in that we can reward?

    I think well of the Salvation Army, so donate some pocket change to them whenever you see the kettle, or drop a few bucks at your local SA offices.

    And thank you for the thought.

  20. I think I just got a glimpse at the stupid party’s messaging going forward*.

    A Republican commenter on FOX, discussing the excellent chance Republicans have to rebrand and re-emerge as something Americans can really get behind, now that it seems there is increasing rebellion against the RINO’s, and the party can reclaim it’s more conservative roots!

    Well, fiscally conservative roots he hastened to modify.

    Yes, Yes, with the RINO’s holding one end of the spectrum, and the TEA Party the other, the Party has an opportunity to unite in the middle in a, wait for it…more compassionate conservatism.

    Yes friends, look for the Phoenix rising from the ashes named compassionate conservatism.

    Gag me with a maggot.

    * “forward” typed unironically, but then on rereading pegged the meter.

  21. Well hell, only more compassionate conservatism was supposed to be italicized.

    I was really hoping for preview for Christmas…

  22. Since the original meaning of compassion means “suffer together”, I think this sounds correct.

  23. Might be better in the long run to do the boots.

    They can’t be beat.

  24. [M]ore compassionate conservatism was supposed to be italicized

    And spelled Jeb-2016.

  25. I think well of the Salvation Army, so donate some pocket change to them whenever you see the kettle, or drop a few bucks at your local SA offices.

    Cool, Drum. I already try and do that (saw less red-kettles this year … must seek more out).

  26. And spelled Jeb-2016.

    Bite Your Tongue!

    (insert Deanesque scream here)

  27. Amazing what happens when you let consumers make an apples-to-apples comparison of health plans for the first time. Golly, people can choose between lower cost plans with smaller networks or higher cost plans with larger networks.

    Markets!

  28. Golly, people can choose between lower cost plans with smaller networks or higher cost plans with larger networks.

    Thus showing that you don’t understand the difference between insurance and Medicaid, either.

    PROGRESS

  29. bgbear has the gist of it: Obamacare will use all the same dirty tricks that the NHS uses…mainly, raiding doctors from other countries. That’s actually two birds with one stone. Low(er)-wage immigration that also solves the provider problem.

    They will try to substitute RNs and MAs as well. Also, rationing up to and including withholding of care for those deemed “too expensive” to let live.

  30. You realize the rest of the world spends less per capita on healthcare and gets better outcomes, right? Why do you want to spend more and get less?

  31. Thus showing that you don’t understand the difference between insurance and Medicaid, either. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045320

    Of course I do. Why do you think otherwise. Be specific.

  32. “Why do you want to spend more and get less?”

    Exactly my question for Obamacare supporters.

  33. Of course I do. Why do you think otherwise. Be specific.

    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/August/06/Third-Of-Medicaid-Doctors-Say-No-New-Patients.aspx

    But what does Kaiser know about health care, right?

    Let’s check the largest state, California…

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/doctors-boycotting-californias-obamacare-exchange/article/2540272

    “An estimated seven out of every 10 physicians in deep-blue California are rebelling against the state’s Obamacare health insurance exchange and won’t participate, the head of the state’s largest medical association said.”

    Good thing the head of California’s largest medical association doesn’t know anything about health insurance, right? We should believe you instead, isn’t that what you are arguing?

  34. Bronze, silver, gold, platinum; Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot; cut off your thumb, your hand, your arm, both your arms.

    What do you mean you have no choices comrade? You have all the choice the Party says you need. Now choose or it will go worse for you Sophie.

  35. Amazing what happens when you let consumers make an apples-to-apples comparison of health plans for the first time.

    When you let them ? What, other than laziness, was stopping them from doing that before ? Of course, before Obamacare there were more choices which might tax the minds of progressives (in my corner of the universe 41 plans from 4 insurers, Obamacare 1 insurer with the standard bronze, silver, gold, and cubic zirconium plans).

    Markets ! If your idea of a market is a gas station convenience store rather than a Safeway/Albertsons/Publix/Wegmans.

    You realize the rest of the world spends less per capita on healthcare and gets better outcomes, right?

    You realize that is utter crap, right ?

  36. Drum, you gobble up bullshit, don’t notice it been debunked, and then use it as fact. About those 70% of california doctors boycotting ACA:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-boycott-20131212,0,1785658.story#axzz2nNPmEKTR

    And for this article:

    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/August/06/Third-Of-Medicaid-Doctors-Say-No-New-Patients.aspx#sthash.aQjjYkgB.dpuf

    Let me ask you a question. What percentage of Medicaid patients are unable to find a doctor.

  37. You realize the rest of the world spends less per capita on healthcare and gets better outcomes, right?
    You realize that is utter crap, right ?
    - See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045334

    You not liking that fact doesn’t change it.

  38. You realize the rest of the world spends less per capita on healthcare and gets better outcomes, right?

    This is a lie. Oft repeated, but a lie all the same. WHO measures outcomes from different countries using different criteria. Not scientific, that.

  39. You not liking that fact doesn’t change it.

    Just because you declare something a fact does not make it so. Metrics usually touted, such as infant mortality, have repeatedly been shown to be false comparisons because we in the US count differently than other countries.

  40. Jinx, EA.

  41. Once America backs away, ACA forced away, from being the world’s healthcare innovator/researcher, as we are now doing with the role as world policeman, the depth of the subsidization enjoyed by the “rest of the world” will start becoming evident as the outcomes go from a bad that can be covered up with false statistics to a worse that can’t.

  42. - hellomynamewassteve-dolt – You realize of course that all the agitprop in the world won’t effect the actual situation on the ground, right?

    - Not only will you be caught by facts, you’re going to have a very angry base on your hands soon. Best start preparing for that instead of wasting time trying to prop up the OCare train wreck dueche.

  43. So an opinion piece by the most liberal blogger at the LA Times somehow makes more sense that the guy who runs the state’s largest medical association? Because Hiltzik knows the state insurance system inside and out better than the man running the largest state’s largest medical group, is that your argument? Bullshit.

    “You not liking that fact doesn’t change it.”

    You not liking that fact doesn’t change it.

    How much of the “per capita” healthcare expense you mention falls under R&D, and how much does it account for in all those other countries? I don’t recall Canada coming up with any major medical breakthroughs recently, but I HAVE heard of them extorting cheaper prices for drugs (which increased costs are passed on to the US), and then bragging about how cheap their medical care is. Meanwhile people in the countries where their medical care is “free” are waiting months and years for “non-essential” surgery, and patients are dying in the hallways while workers just step over them.

    Apples to apples, remember? Try and keep up.

  44. You want apples to apples? Pajama Boy will happily tell you that a Fuji makes a far better cell phone than an iMac.

  45. what leigh said.

    something like this:

    US, “we’ll treat Adam, Bob, Carol, Dyan, and Ed”

    France, “we’ll treat Adam, Bob, Carol, but not Dyan and Ed”

    US, Adam, Bob, and Dyan respond to treatment and Carol and Ed die = 60% success

    France, Adam and Bob respond to treatment and Carol, Dyan and Ed die = 66% success of those treated.

    Hint: you don’t want to be Dyan.

  46. Leigh,

    Is the penalty a punch in the arm or a beverage of your choice ? Anyway, HMNWS’ alleged fact annoys me almost as much as the one about The Poor(tm) not being able to get health care.

  47. It’s beyond me why you chaps bother responding directly to such an obvious liar, fraud, and all round evil asshole.

    I mean, I can see using the opposition as a foil to sharpen your argument, but that isn’t useful against such disingenuousness.

    I can see debate in the hope of changing minds, but debate against such aggressive ignorance for that purpose is useless.

    About the only possibility I see left is playing whack-a-mole for some idle amusement, but it just looks too tedious and ignoble to be any fun.

    Oh well, different strokes and all that. Carry on.

  48. Beverages, EA. Of course.

    HMNWS is incredibly disingenuous. His lies sprout lies. There is never a liberal cause too far for him to get his spindly little arms around. I’m waiting for him to endorse the culling of the disabled in order to save costs for the more deserving.

  49. LBascom I agree and try not respond directly to the dishonest one. I was just trying to flesh out Leigh’s point. That’s my story and I am sticking to it.

  50. Herr Bascom,

    There is also the Lurker Effect. Lurking and seeing the BS not refuted can cause someone not familiar with the topic at hand, or fence-sitting regarding an opinion, to accept the BS position as correct.

  51. Quite. Steve’s prattle cannot stand unrefuted.

  52. bgbear, Mr. Ausfahrt (if that is indeed your real unfortunate name), I find no confrontation with your reasoning. I’ll just emphasize responding to it directly.

  53. I’ll also point out, RE,. seeing the BS not refuted can cause accepting the BS position as correct, there is also the “thou protest too much methinks” effect. That is, addressing every bald assertion with 100 word rebuttals complete with links and footnotes shows an awful amount of respect for a steaming pile of cow plop. A lurker might actually think Dog Vomit is fighting a valiant fight.

  54. But when his every claim is clearly refuted and disproved by both facts and logic, his resemblance to Quixote is the one seen by Sancho Panza and the rest of those around him as the battered, bleeding hulk suffering from senile dementia and syphilis, not the romantic trying to rescue Dulcinea.

  55. Mr. Ausfahrt (if that is indeed your real unfortunate name)…

    Indeed it is not (my parents not being quite that odd), and it is strictly coincidental that it is apropos to the threads the SPB has railed against.

  56. Of course it’s probably the case of my own cynicism, having argued the twats here to no avail for the last 6-7 years, that I’ve come to the conclusion the whole of the left would be better served by a swift kick kin the nads than any principled debate.

    Truth be told, I’m about at the point where I’m just keeping my powder dry and waiting for the day when it’s time to start shooting the slavers. Because in the end, that’s what it’s coming to. Be enslaved or shoot. I know what I’m going to do.

    And fuck you NSA. I know what side you’re on too…

  57. Truth be told, I’m about at the point where I’m just keeping my powder dry and waiting for the day when it’s time to start shooting the slavers.

    I’ve been saying for years (the mid 80s) there will be a second Revolution not later than 2025, and I have seen nothing to cause me to change that estimate. It will start the first time the food stamps don’t show up.

  58. Not to say that people will be fighting for their right to food stamps, but that’s where the violence will start, and the government will have no choice but to clamp down. But the riots are just the fuse, not the cause.

  59. “the threads the SPB has railed against.”

    Speaking of which, here is a good treatment of the Duck [non]controversy. And why, much to SBP’s relief I’m sure, it ain’t really about the fags, it’s about tactics.

    This is all over the internet right now, which is good, because people need to realize just how rigged the system is. The left in America simply cannot tolerate disagreement, deviation from group think is heresy, and when you piss them off, if they can’t dismiss you, they steamroll you. The actual topic is irrelevant. This particular one was homosexuality, but it just as easily could be guns, healthcare, or global warming. This event is just another example of the Liberal Arguing Checklist writ large:

    emphasis mine

  60. and do also read the liberal arguing checklist as well:

    http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/the-internet-arguing-checklist/

  61. Holy underwear, THAT’S where all the “Left wingers who can actually produce a solid argument” are! They all went to Monster Hunter Nation!

    Left wingers who can actually produce a solid argument are to be treasured and debated fully (that’s sort of the point of debate). Unlike many of my liberal contemporaries, I don’t “manage” my blog comments until I have an echo chamber and my self-esteem isn’t predicated on how many sycophants pat my tender head while telling me how brilliant I am for standing up for some straw man cause de jour. I’ve got a bunch of regular left wing readers who can bring their A Game. I love them. Arguing with them, and honing my points against them makes my arguments stronger for the future.

    [emphasis mine]

    Bastard is hoarding them over there! Has to be. I haven’t seen a one of them in freak’in years.

  62. You realize the rest of the world spends less per capita on healthcare and gets better outcomes, right?

    Good lord! How does inaneissteve ever find his own dick to take a piss without dribbling all over the floor?

    [insert Heinlein quote about stupidity here]

    Let’s ignore that Canadians cross the border to pay out of pocket for better/faster care here and that Brit NHS let people die (e.g. cervical cancer) in order to save costs.

    argh.

  63. Man, you guys are incapable of taking in any contradictory data. OECD exists to do apples-to-apples comparisons. The track unambiguous statistics .

    http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Briefing-Note-USA-2013.pdf

    http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/oecdhealthdata2013-countrynotes.htm

    More money, worse outcomes. This is beyond debate. If you think otherwise, cite one credible source showing the US having better outcomes.

  64. Let’s ignore that Canadians cross the border to pay out of pocket for better/faster care here and that Brit NHS let people die (e.g. cervical cancer) in order to save costs. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045392

    You’d think then that in aggregate they’d have worse outcomes. Strangely, they don’t.

    Again, cite a source for your assertion, that the US has better outcomes.

  65. Man, you guys are incapable of taking in any contradictory data.

    Yet another remarkable failure of introspection.

    More money, worse outcomes. This is beyond debate. If you think otherwise, cite one credible source showing the US having better outcomes.

    Here you go, Nimrod.

  66. Outcomes are not generally measured with comparable metrics steve. Cherry picking the right ones lets anyone prove almost anything to a casual observer.

    That said:

    http://www.american.com/archive/2013/october/hate-to-br-eak-it-to-you-walt-but-its-pretty-ba-d-in-canada-too

  67. “More money, worse outcomes. This is beyond debate.”

    Settled science! Law of the land!

  68. And once again, completely ignoring the costs of R&D that all of those other countries don’t include, or don’t bother spending.

    Here, DV, try this link (or come up with better data on your own) just to get an idea of how much is spent on developing those new drugs that other countries get for free. As the saying goes, while the second pill might only cost 50 cents, that first pill costs a billion dollars…

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2013/08/11/the-cost-of-inventing-a-new-drug-98-companies-ranked/

    All those costs are factored into the OECD list, but never for other countries.

    Another:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2000/05/why_do_drugs_cost_less_in_canada.html

  69. And how much of the higher health care costs are because of malpractice insurance costs and “nuisance suits”? The fact that you can find a lawyer willing to argue anything, no matter how outrageous, and it’s oftentimes cheaper to settle rather than fight, which only encourages the next guy and his lawyer to try it again, makes doctors order unnecessary testing, just to cover his ass and that of the HMO, which drives up the cost even further.

    Does ACA address this? Not at all. But making one simple change — loser pays court costs — would drive those costs down dramatically.

    Why wasn’t this suggested? It was. The response?

    “I won.”

  70. “Outcomes are not generally measured with comparable metrics”

    That was along the lines I was thinking.

    In a very apt metaphor, if I may say so, A lion enjoys a much healthier life in a zoo, but does that mean letting them live free in the savannah is a worse outcome?

  71. “Outcomes are not generally measured with comparable metrics”

    This is a huge problem HMNWS and others of his ilk glide over. One of the reasons the US has an allegedly higher infant mortality rate is that we count all premies, other countries, for example, have criteria that set birth weight and/or gestational age minimums. The net result is that the other countries have “lower” rates.

    At the other end of the spectrum, the minimal difference in life expectancy is largely attributable to our higher accidental death rate.

    Bottom line, comparing rates is frequently apples to lugnuts.

  72. @Eingang – you show better outcomes for one thing. That’s called cherry picking. You haven’t shown better outcomes in general. You can’t (via FOX of all things: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/07/10/united-states-health-outcomes-far-worse-than-other-comparable-nations/)

    @palaeomerus – you offered no evidence that the US has better health outcomes. But then you never offer much evidence for anything.

    And once again, completely ignoring the costs of R&D that all of those other countries don’t include, or don’t bother spending. Here, DV, try this link (or come up with better data on your own) just to get an idea of how much is spent on developing those new drugs that other countries get for free. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045393

    Cite some real data, because apparently you’ve never heard of Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, Novartis, Sanofi, or AstroZenica.

    The Forbes article, as usual, is worthless. It’s a back of the envelop calculation (the author admits it), and you seem to be forgetting that US and European drug makers are developing drugs for a world market. It isn’t simply US companies dealing with the FDA.

    And why are you OK with US prescription buyers subsidizing the drug prices the rest of the world pays? Do you hate Americans?

    And how much of the higher health care costs are because of malpractice insurance costs and “nuisance suits”? The fact that you can find a lawyer willing to argue anything, no matter how outrageous, and it’s oftentimes cheaper to settle rather than fight, which only encourages the next guy and his lawyer to try it again, makes doctors order unnecessary testing, just to cover his ass and that of the HMO, which drives up the cost even further. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045393

    Rather than pulling this out of your ass, why don’t you go research how much malpractice adds to the cost of healthcare in the US compared to other OECD countries. Come back when you have real data.

  73. This is a huge problem HMNWS and others of his ilk glide over. One of the reasons the US has an allegedly higher infant mortality rate is that we count all premies, other countries, for example, have criteria that set birth weight and/or gestational age minimums. The net result is that the other countries have “lower” rates. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045406

    OECD isn’t counting infant mortality. When you look at life expectancies, you the US going from highest to 20-somthingth in a few decades. When you look at disease specific outcomes, you see the us typically lagging. You just can take an inconvenient fact. Again, cite ANY source showing the US having better aggregate outcomes.

  74. That’s called cherry picking. You haven’t shown better outcomes in general.

    Nice tap dance, Bojangles, you said cite one, and your link doesn’t address “all” outcomes either, in fact, it is a crappy cite in that it mainly speaks about life style issues, not delivery of care issues. In addition, it supports my argument:

    Murray and his team were also surprised to find that deaths attributed to road traffic injuries, drug abuse and self-harm were more prevalent than previously thought. Drug use disorders accounted for more years of life lost than both prostate cancer and brain cancer combined – up 448 percent since 1990.

  75. OECD isn’t counting infant mortality.

    Of course not. That would make the numbers skew too much towards the “realistic”, which defeats their purpose of blaming the US for all the world’s ills (a UN staple since its inception).

    Come back when you have real data.

    Still waiting for your. There are also legal problems with trying to sue in other countries, and according to one expert in Medical Malpractice,

    Cases of malpractice are governed by the country’s law. “If a person is injured or a life is loss, any awarded compensation is based on the financial value of a person’s life in that country,” said Atkins.

    “If there is a clear case of malpractice in the U.S. where a person is permanently injured or died at a medium age, “explained Atkins, “a person might get a couple of million as a settlement. But in a foreign country for the same claim you might get $10,000 to $20,000 or even less.”

    And the costs of medical malpractice lawsuits and CYA testing is estimated to be as high as 10% of every health care dollar. Here in the US, that is…

    Still waiting for you to come up with the costs of medical R & D in other countries, since you are refuting the data presented. (Simply ignoring the fact doesn’t change it.) No settling out of court on this one, and you WILL be required to show your work.

    And Eingang has already shredded your last feeble attempt.

  76. You haven’t shown better outcomes in general. You can’t

    You don’t define “better outcomes.” And you also claim the “outcomes” exclude infant mortality

    You know how I could get a really healthy population? Make sure all newborns under a certain birth weight are excluded, forever, with infant euthanasia (see Netherlands) encourage abortion among at-risk women (e.g. teens), restrict food choices, alcohol choices, risky behavior choices … etc

    See, fudging the kind of participants + restriction of liberty and VOILA! “Better outcomes” guaranteed.

    Would you, as an average citizen, rather be treated in America or in Cuba?

  77. Nice tap dance, Bojangles, you said cite one, and your link doesn’t address “all” – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045407

    You really want to say the US has the best healthcare in the world because it has one area of better outcomes and twenty areas of worse outcomes? Yeah, stick with that.

  78. obamacare is trashy trashy trashy

    trashy and dehumanizing

    and crawling with tuberculosis

  79. are nespressos considered a medical device?

  80. nespressos are off the grid

  81. You know how I could get a really healthy population? Make sure all newborns under a certain birth weight are excluded, forever, with infant euthanasia (see Netherlands) encourage abortion among at-risk women (e.g. teens), restrict food choices, alcohol choices, risky behavior choices … etc – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045413

    More and more bullshit. How many infants are euthanized in the Netherlands? What vanishingly small fraction of a percent difference does that make in life expectancy? Where are all these food, alcohol, and risky choices taken away? Certainly not europe. And abortion rates are higher in the US than Europe, so THAT can’t be why we have worse outcomes.

    See, fudging the kind of participants + restriction of liberty and VOILA! “Better outcomes” guaranteed. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045413

    Except you haven’t demonstrated that happening at all. Still, IT’S A GREAT STORY!

    And the costs of medical malpractice lawsuits and CYA testing is estimated to be as high as 10% of every health care dollar. Here in the US, that is… – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045413

    You’re not even trying now.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=medical+malpractice+percentage+of+healthcare+costs

  82. When you look at life expectancies, you the US going from highest to 20-somthingth in a few decades.

    Gosh. This couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the hordes of diseaesed illegal aliens using our healthcare system, do you think?

  83. This couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the hordes of diseaesed illegal aliens using our healthcare system, do you think? – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045417

    Why don’t you look it up and get back to us. Don’t forget to look up European immigration rates while you’re at it.

  84. You really want to say the US has the best healthcare in the world because it has one area of better outcomes and twenty areas of worse outcomes?

    I realize you are woefully ignorant of medicine and epidemiology, but I am still waiting, with giddy anticipation, of you pointing out worse “outcomes” that are a result of availability or delivery of care.

  85. Why don’t you look it up and get back to us.

    Why don’t you go fuck yourself? Plenty of us report out to the CDC everyday and are privy to a lot more information than you.

  86. Plenty of us report out to the CDC everyday and are privy to a lot more information than you. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045426

    So cite something beyond your limited intuition, oh sitter upponer of so mucheth data.

  87. So despite all the gnashing of teeth, it would seem that many comments later, you all have nothing to show that the US is getting better outcomes despite spending vastly more per capita than other developed countries.

    Just keep that in mind.

  88. obamacare is tethered to a failshit neo-fascist government what’s up to its ass in debt and broken promises

    but what’s saddest is how badly it rapes the children

  89. Still dodging those questions, DV… better get to it, or we will assume that you have something to hide.

    And you, YOU, demanding evidence? Don’t make me laugh.

    Put up or shut up, Dog Vomit.

  90. He won’t, Drum. He’s still talking out his ass.

  91. You might want actually to look at links you post as this one doesn’t support you claim.

    The problem is that you don’t know enough even to argue these points. That the rate of cardiovascular deaths in country X is less than that of country Y doesn’t tell you bugger all about their health care systems if the average life expectancy of X is 30 years less than Y, even with the artificiality of age adjustment.

    As an exercise for you, try to explain why the rate of malaria deaths in Finland is the highest of the countries listed.

  92. Steve,

    Even if we accepted all of your assertions regarding the state of U.S. healthcare, tell me how ObamaCare makes any of these conditions better and not worse?

  93. Hospitals have been running on skeleton crews since Der Wahn took office and the spectre of ObamaCare cast a shadow over expansions (that weren’t already in the works) and hiring. Watch laboratory facilities move offsite and testing be delayed in the scramble to contain costs.

  94. inaneissteve

    In parts of EU, infants under a certain birthweight are considered stillborn whether or not they have actually drawn breath and cried after birth.

    When you can finally admit that you will take a step on the road to the realities of Socialized Medicine.

    Only some are worthy of either getting medicine or being counted in the [government self-serving] statistics.

    tool

  95. I’m sure Steve is cooking up a brilliant retort that puts all of our doubts to rest. Cmon Steve show us what ya got.

  96. Watch laboratory facilities move offsite and testing be delayed in the scramble to contain costs.

    Yep, what Bojangles fails to countenance is that there is more determining whether care is good than life expectancy.

  97. More than 3/4 of New York doctors polled said either they will not, or are not yet decided on whether they will participate in ObamaCare:

    A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society finds that 44 percent of MDs said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan.

    Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

    Three out of four doctors who are participating in the program said they “had to participate” because of existing contractual obligations with an insurer or medical provider, not because they wanted to.

    http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

  98. nespresso might cure slapphead flatulence. see obamacare is improving lives.

  99. Exactly, Eingang. Since he loves to prattle on about his programming skillz, I’ll give him a comparison that may help him understand modern medicine as compared to the up and coming field of Artificial Intelligence, stolen from John Derbyshire:

    In AI, the hard things are easy, the easy ones hard. A computer that plays grandmaster-level chess? Easy. One that knows a dog from a cat on sight? Hard.

    Compare and contrast to a routine surgical proceed versus diagnostics with limited tools: no labs, no radiology, no MRIs or CT scans.

  100. And just in case you were thinking of using Obamamath here is a real world rule of thumb:

    *More insured patients ? More patients cared for

    *if that ever occurs

  101. *procedure* sheesh.

  102. That ? should have been a not equal sign.

  103. Compare and contrast to a routine surgical proceed versus diagnostics with limited tools: no labs, no radiology, no MRIs or CT scans.

    Indeed, how about not having to do a procedure (e.g., exploratory lap) due to the availability of MRIs &c. ?

  104. “@palaeomerus – you offered no evidence that the US has better health outcomes. But then you never offer much evidence for anything. ”

    Except when I do and you ignore it. And of course often your evidence is four anecdotes in an editorial from the LA TIMES blog that doesn’t address the question. But then if you wanted evidence you could LOOK IT UP and not waste my time with pretending you have any credibility to demand more than you provide.

  105. “You really want to say the US has the best healthcare in the world because it has one area of better outcomes and twenty areas of worse outcomes? Yeah, stick with that.”

    And you report a references to abstracts of studies with skewed numbers and claim they represent better outcomes and ignore questions of methodology and metrics. You are a sucker preaching the scam you fell for, not an expert in anything. Better stick with that.

  106. “That ? should have been a not equal sign.”

    Do the ‘ != ‘ ao anyone who had a C class will get it. Or you could do the awful ” thing from pascal.

  107. paleo,

    I cut and paste the symbol from Word. It worked in the past

  108. It worked in the past

    So did our system of government.

    Ba-dum-tsss

    Be sure to tip your waitress and try the veal…

  109. test out :(

  110. So despite all the gnashing of teeth, it would seem that many comments later, you all have nothing to show that the US is getting better outcomes despite spending vastly more per capita than other developed countries.

    That’s really not the question. The question is: “Where can you get the best care money can buy?” If your answer is anything but the US, you’re an idiot.

    Are you a Darwin fan, Slappy?

  111. “Just keep that in mind.”

    That you have a dogmatic ax to grind despite any and all evidence to the contrary? Stipulated.

  112. I often times I read the British papers to keep abreast of the horrors of the NHS. That modern marvel that turns patients away to have them 1) give birth in the lobby or on the sidewalk 2) go home to die of a burst appendix or MCI 3) routinely misdiagnoses children with fevers as merely having a cold (not even a RAPID test is done for Strep) 4) leaves the elderly unattended in unheated hallways for many hours allowing them to soil themselves.

    Folks, this is your future. That is if we don’t go full old school Soviet medicine and stick to hospice care and abortions.

  113. Well the thing doesn’t work so don’t do that and once again Pascal is the wrong way to go.

  114. The thing being” greater than and then less than placed right next to each other” to mean “not equal to”.

    Apparently the blog thinks it’s code.

  115. From accessories>system tools>character map> ?

    Oh, I shoulda put Dicentra in front of accessories.

  116. OK, that’s weird. It (being a not equal sign) looked fine in the comment box…

  117. …leaves the elderly unattended in unheated hallways for many hours allowing them to soil themselves.

    Yep, or just ignoring them and letting them die of dehydration. I had occasion to note that in one European country whose name you would recognize instantly, at the premiere hospital in a major city families were expected to provide food and water to patients.

    Granted that meant you could get better food than average hospital chow, but having to have water schlepped in to me was a bit of a standard of care failure.

  118. The whole concept of private or semi-private rooms? Hahahahaha.

  119. …leaves the elderly unattended in unheated hallways for many hours allowing them to soil themselves.

    Well, DV has stated-as-fact that people were slugging it out in the gutters outside the hospitals for a spare kidney before ObamaCare came along, so letting patients die of dehydration in a puddle of their own excreta is a step up from that…

  120. Yes, he did. He also stated that any organ is good enough for anybody.

    Jeenyus!

  121. The whole concept of private or semi-private rooms? Hahahaha.

    I am sure the Joint Commission International will get right on that.

  122. Your adventure in a foreign hospital sounds suspiciously like parts of France.

  123. Leigh,

    Not France, and much better than the hospital in another non-European country where traction=tied to the bed.

  124. Oh boy! How long before we each get one of these for signing on to Obamacare?

    Google-owned Motorola has received a patent for a smartphone-connected system “that comprises an electronic skin tattoo capable of being applied to a throat region of a body.”

    According to the patent, which was published last week, the “electronic neck tattoo” connects to a smartphone via a “transceiver” similar to the way a Bluetooth headset, smartwatch, or Google Glass device would pair with a handset. It would have its own power supply and can be outfitted with a microphone, which would allow you to control your phone using only voice commands.

  125. Hey, what happened to my blockquote?

  126. your blockquote was relieved of duty under obamacare

  127. Oh bloody hell. Our republic, dying with a whimper…

  128. my 80 lower receivers have shipped

  129. Yep, what Bojangles fails to countenance is that there is more determining whether care is good than life expectancy. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    So far, all you’ve done is throw stones. You have yet to put forward accepted measures of quality and show that the US is leading the world on those measures.

    That’s really not the question. The question is: “Where can you get the best care money can buy?” If your answer is anything but the US, you’re an idiot. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    What’s the best care your money can buy Pablo. Can you foot the bill for half a dozen specialists, travel expenses, hotel lodging for a few months, and the rates of the best medical facility you might want to have a loved one live in for a period of time? Because if you can’t afford the best, then what difference does it make what the best single institution or doctor is? If you can’t access it, it doesn’t exist in your world.

    I often times I read the British papers to keep abreast of the horrors of the NHS. That modern marvel that turns patients away to have them 1) give birth in the lobby or on the sidewalk 2) go home to die of a burst appendix or MCI 3) routinely misdiagnoses children with fevers as merely having a cold (not even a RAPID test is done for Strep) 4) leaves the elderly unattended in unheated hallways for many hours allowing them to soil themselves. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430/blockquote>

    Why don’t you read a US newspaper about the horrors of the US system. Because by the way you phrase it, you would expect the UK to have worse outcomes. Why don’t you call someone in the UK and ask if they would prefer the American system.

    Yep, or just ignoring them and letting them die of dehydration. I had occasion to note that in one European country whose name you would recognize instantly, at the premiere hospital in a major city families were expected to provide food and water to patients. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    Oh, do tell. Was this in Germany? Austria? France? UK? Norway? Sweden?

    Well, DV has stated-as-fact that people were slugging it out in the gutters outside the hospitals for a spare kidney before ObamaCare came along – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    Liar. Seriously, as much as you claim I’m a liar, I’d think you’d be more careful not to tell total fucking whoppers.

    Yes, he did. He also stated that any organ is good enough for anybody. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    And…. You’re a liar too.

    Seriously, go find where I said any such thing.

  130. How the hell do you register a magazine? Do they engrave a serial number on them ? If you take in three, short of searching your house, how do they know you don’t have 17 more ?

    Will we ever see laws written by intelligent “legislators” in our lifetimes ?

  131. Mr. Ausfahrt (if that is indeed your real unfortunate name)…

    Indeed it is not (my parents not being quite that odd), and it is strictly coincidental that it is apropos to the threads the SPB has railed against.

    That being the case, shouldn’t there be a nicht between the two?

  132. Ausfahrt nicht Eingang for the metonymy I guess.

  133. You have yet to put forward accepted measures of quality and show that the US is leading the world on those measures.

    You have yet to put forward accepted measures of quality and show that the US is not leading the world on those measures. Life expectancy does not measure quality of medical care, nor is it a surrogate.

    Oh, do tell. Was this in Germany? Austria? France? UK? Norway? Sweden?

    As a matter of fact, yes.

  134. “So far, all you’ve done is throw stones.”

    Bullshit

  135. That being the case, shouldn’t there be a nicht between the two?

    Probably, but they were always separate signs.

  136. “And…. You’re a liar too.”

    Said the liar.

  137. Teacher has nothing to teach and is dumber than the class. No apples for teacher, only scorn.

  138. Why don’t you call someone in the UK and ask if they would prefer the American system.

    What are maximum waiting times?

    You have the legal right to start your NHS consultant-led treatment within a maximum of 18 weeks from referral, unless you choose to wait longer or it is clinically appropriate that you wait longer…Patients with urgent conditions such as cancer and heart disease will be able to see a specialist more quickly. For example, you have the right to be seen by a specialist within a maximum of two weeks from GP referral for urgent referrals where cancer is suspected.

    OTOH, here in deepest darkest flyovercountry, in a 3 county metro area of maybe 100K, with more MRIs than Sweden, you can get seen for damn near anything in a day or two, or go VFR direct to a specialist. All the hospitals are signed off by The Joint Commission, whereas in the UK they seem to be afraid to have The Joint Commission International look at their hospitals.

  139. Well, DV has stated-as-fact that people were slugging it out in the gutters outside the hospitals for a spare kidney before ObamaCare came along – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52294#comment-1045430

    Liar. Seriously, as much as you claim I’m a liar, I’d think you’d be more careful not to tell total fucking whoppers.

    more like a jr whopper, since what you said was,

    “Obamacare is the only thing that prevents us all from fighting over organs in the streets”

    So “lying liar” in the sense my kids use it when they’re disputing facts.

  140. His actual comment:

    I mean steve give us “straight answers” like ‘Obamacare is the only thing that prevents us all from fighting over organs in the streets’. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52186#comment-1040633

    Not Obamacare specifically, but a government run transplant list. Yes. People wouldn’t actually fight for them in the streets. I suppose they’d bid for them. Show me an actual non-government system for organ transplants you prefer.
    - See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52186#sthash.sFedrgW5.dpuf

  141. Re reading that answer reminds me of another question DV has ignored repeatedly:

    “Who gave all those sources the idea that Obama – as an Illinois State Senator — was actually born in Kenya?”

    Who gave them that very unusual idea, DV? If Obama was born in Hawaii and raised in Indonesia, wouldn’t that be exotic enough for most bios? Who gave them the Kenya idea?

  142. In that thread, anyways. He first pulled that hysterical shit in a different thread and was being mocked for it.

    So it may turn out that the original iteration was “kidney,” not “organ” after all.

  143. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way to search for specific comments, just the original posts, and trying google gets a lot of weird results…

  144. Typical lib methodology costrict to minor technical errors when in the wrong generally, dilate to the general when wrong technically, and muddy the terms and viewpoints as much as possible, shift the topic, or attack a straw man whenever error is conceptually fundamental but too useful to current PR “culture modification” efforts to abandon despite being transparently absurd or based purely on drama.

    For instance :

    Problem: ” there is no way that Benghazi was a spur of the moment mob provoked by a you-tube video. They had mortars and it was a prolonged siege.”

    Liberal “Solution” : You rethuglicans reflexively hate women and black people which is the only reason you doubt Susan Rice’s statement and you think she’s too dumb to be in the State department. “

  145. “Typical lib methodology costrict” -> Typical lib methodology: constrict

    The liberal must choke on the shadow of an imaginary gnat convincingly as though in danger of losing his or her life one moment, and must then effortlessly swallow a horse as though smelling a whiff of fresh apple pie on a distant windowsill. It helps if all messaging and processing is prepackaged and marked approved or rejected so the liberal can arbitrarily speak with an appearance of certitude no matter how bizarre the conclusion may be. Don’t look at it, just react to it and transmit the reaction as dramatically as possible The liberal must be mechanically stern and deterministically axiomatic one moment and like totally all about like the holistic impression and feel of stuff the next moment because sometimes you have to give the left brain a rest and shake off your patriarchal western imperialist mind shackles and like you have to know stuff in your soul or something even though only idiots and badly raised children believe in stuff like souls.

    The liberal must be reborn in every moment and move as water.

    And by water I mean a careless unregulated spray of foamy, toxic, formless, insubstantial, reeking piss. It feels good to get it out and it puts the moron who dared oppose the way in their place. Or it makes you look like a mental invalid.

  146. You haven’t shown better outcomes in general.

    So, having better success at treating flatulence is just as worthy as, say, curing stage IV breast cancer?

    OTOH, one of the simplest ways to show a better outcome is to not provide treatment at all unless you have a 90+% success rate for the given malady.

    To some degree, the entire “we spend too much on health care” is a red herring. I don’t care, for example, how much HMNWS pays for its health care; that’s up to it to decide. I do care, however, about how much HMNWS wants to dun me for its health care.

    Absent other constraints, it’s worth everything that I own to be cured of a fatal disease. From a totally personal view, I would also consider it worth everything that HMNWS has to cure me, but I also expect HMNWS to have a markedly different opinion (and rightfully so) about that.

    If we were immortal, that would change the calculus quite a bit. But we aren’t.

  147. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/the-best-health-care-system-the-numbers-say-otherwise/article5577290/

    Things to remember: Canada is about 35 million people. That’s a whole country about the same size as California in terms of population (a little bit smaller). The US is about 9 times ‘bigger a problem’ over all.

    Canada’s population is also more concentrated the US population.

    Canada uses different metrics for their outcomes than the US.

    Canada’s metrics favor smaller countries with more concentrated populations.

    Canada has a nearby country nearby to “overflow” to.

    Canada has fairly regular drug shortages.

  148. For pure shits and giggles:

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/01/15/facts-about-americas-health-care-quality-that-world-doesnt-know/

    Darn you Roger Ailes! Why can’t you be credible like CBS, CNN, NBC, and MSNBC? And the Huffington post! 1%er lies!

  149. More “not credible in the way that an LA TImes Blog about unisurable edge cases is” stuff from Forbes:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/

  150. Here’s some issue advocacy.

    http://healthreformquestions.com/american-health-care-facts.php

    And the fun little cherry on the sundae:

    http://healthreformquestions.com/quiz/

  151. Question #4 is bugged. It has all four answer choices graded as wrong including a.) the correct answer.

  152. Palaeo,

    Nice Forbes link that reiterates succinctly what I said earlier, but I reckon that HMNWS, as he has done before, will reject it out of hand as it is Forbes.

  153. What’s the best care your money can buy Pablo. Can you foot the bill for half a dozen specialists, travel expenses, hotel lodging for a few months, and the rates of the best medical facility you might want to have a loved one live in for a period of time? Because if you can’t afford the best, then what difference does it make what the best single institution or doctor is? If you can’t access it, it doesn’t exist in your world.

    No, shithead. Things do exist or not based on the capabilities of others. Just because you’re incapable of using integrity and honesty doesn’t mean that they do not exist. Further, seeing that I’ve done my share of medical travel, with the medicine therein covered, the answer to your question is yes, I can, demonstrably. For now. Until such things are no longer possible thanks to retarded utopians such as yourself determined to make everyone equally miserable.

    Describing market economics is not going to prove that places with lower quality care have higher quality care. The best care is the best care. Lesser care is not.

  154. That being the case, shouldn’t there be a nicht between the two?

    As Old Blue Eyes said, you can’t have one without the other.

  155. As Old Blue Eyes said, you can’t have one without the other.

    Nicht true – by definition almost all ausfahrten are eingang, but not all eingangen are ausfahrten.

  156. It seems my recollections of the Autobahn are overriding other considerations.

  157. I think Steven has run out of steam.
    One reason life expectancy is so low in the US compared to Europe is lifestyle. Not medical competency. Darleen nailed it above. The medical profession in this country are more likely to go through heroic lengths to try and save a patient,damn the expense,which just isn’t done in other western countries. Even in an emergency room. It is why europeans that can afford it come here for cancer treatments and major surgeries.
    I remember reading somewhere, Time Magazine? That in Orange county California alone emergency room visits by undocumented aliens cost the taxpayers fifty thousand dollars a day.

  158. That in Orange county California alone emergency room visits by undocumented aliens cost the taxpayers fifty thousand dollars a day.

    $ 657,ooo per day in all uncompensated costs, 58.3% of ER visits white, 27.8% Hispanic/Latino. Oddly enough, this mirrors the 2010 census breakdown. There is no figure given for illegals (of any race), so $50K/day is not unreasonable.

    Interestingly enough, only 6.4% of all had no insurance.

    Plenty of info here.

  159. So it may turn out that the original iteration was “kidney,” not “organ” after all.

    It was actually about lung transplant and organ donation. He was proving he doesn’t know what he’s talking by suggesting that doctors were overpaid butchers. Much like the Wahn does.

  160. Interestingly enough, only 6.4% of all had no insurance.

    Odd, isn’t it? I brought this up to steve last night and he dismissed it out of hand. Surely there’s an app for such a calculation on his iPhone.

  161. He was proving he doesn’t know what he’s talking by suggesting that doctors were overpaid butchers.

    Yep, it is comical, in a pathetic sort of way, that a guy claiming to make $240K/year in a totally non-essential job thinks that.

  162. Steve and Dale K are both “Liberal Fucks” too.

  163. That’s a charming article about Pajamaboi, Geoff. I’ll bet his parents are proud.

  164. in a totally non-essential job thinks that.

    Now you’ve done it, Eingang. steve will have to swoop in here to prove himself an absolute fool once again.

  165. “Market research is the future of space flight, you teatards!”

    For the pre-emption.

  166. Pablo, I’ve been giving him the heads up that his job is about to become largely irrelevant, likely by 2030 at the latest. The way things are going, it could be much sooner. Why pay a human $249K when machines work for nothing?

  167. He is little more than an algorithm, and a buggy one at that.

  168. you always have this nagging suspicion that Natasha Richardson would have lived if she had crashed a a US ski resort.

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