Speculation this all is, naturally, but there’s at least some compelling circumstantial evidence that Trayvon Martin may have been under the influence of “poor-man’s PCP,” an Arizona Ice Tea Watermelon and DMX drink called Lean (aka Skittles), which has certain behavioral properties that can enhance confrontation and heighten paranoid behavior.
None of which we heard much of at trial.
Doug Ross makes the case — while also reminding us of the young Martin’s penchant for acquiring items not typically tied to teenage boys.
Like, for instance, women’s jewelry.
All of which I mention only as a prelude to the DOJ “investigation” into whether a multi-racial “White Hispanic” should be charged under federal law with civil rights violations, as if he were Michael Rooker from Mississippi Burning.
This is your truth. The Progressives have their own truth, which is, of course, truthier.
Whoever is upset in the scariest way will determine the revolutionary truth of this.
I vaguely remember hearing something about a toxicology report showing Martin to NOT be under the influence of anything at the time.
At least anything they normally test for.
If so, wouldn’t that have shown up during the autopsy? Or was a tox screen not performed?
Mega-Dittos, @RushLimbaugh! Credit Where Credit Is Due and More Questions
Who knows if they even screen for that?
There isn’t going to be a civil rights case and there isn’t going to be a civil suit. The problem, which was mitigated in the criminal case, is that Saint Trayvon was bad news waiting to happen, and that cat is coming out of the bag.
the trial I want to watch has Angela Corey and Bernie de la Rionda in the dock.
“Who knows if they even screen for that?”
see here
Why Did The Trayvon Martin Funeral Director Lie? – How Does He Connect to Scheme Team?
A tox screen was done, but they’ll only find what they look for. If dextromethorphan was on the list I haven’t heard about it. It being perfectly legal, they might not have looked for it. And it might not have been there at that moment, though evidence of a lean habit could still be instructive.
They found THC, Ernst, though at low levels. Of course, he had about 5% body fat so it wouldn’t hang around long anyway.
From newrouter’s link at 6:50:
Brain and liver damage? At 17?
Serving as an effigy with which to incite race riots may be the most useful thing he ever could have hoped to do — for flexible values of “useful.”
Good to know Pablo.
strange fruit indeed
taste the rainbow
I’m going to go abase myself before an icon of Saint Trayvon, in atonement for having the gall to have hit the trifecta of privilege. Because white guilt is soooo 1990’s.
Silly html. Let’s try that again.
And from Jeff G.’s link.
And that’s supposed to be a bad thing, Darth?
Thick Dick Thursday, because Rule of Law Thursday wasn’t krunk enough.
You can tell that straight white males are privileged because of how everything throughout history is said to be their fault and everyone hates them and wants to seem them torn down and humbled just for being alive. It’s funny how many poor people are straight white males given how privileged they are . But that’s what you get for holding people like Jamie Foxx and Jay Z down.
white peeps = new jews
you can’t just be saying the prejudice and make like all black people are on drugs cause is not true for example most of them are not on drugs actually
except for young black males are very conformist so if a lot of them in a community start doing Drugs then lots of them will start doing drugs that is not a prejudice it is just how it is
George Zimmerman should have stayed in the car this is not a prejudice it just would have saved him a lot of time and worry and he wouldna ate all that bread
Angela Corey is a whore but it is wrong to let her steal the whore spotlight from Pam Biondi
the media lol
“George Zimmerman should have stayed in the car ”
Exactly! When the black man in town, the white man best hunker down!
Or in this case, the half Hispanic, quarter black man…
Neighborhood watch!? Fuck that shit. Best take your losses and juss report it to the po-po. Stay behind those walls citizen, the night is dark and dangerous!
Next timer a six foot tall 160 pounder is pounding you, ID the dude before defending yourself, he may be a child!
I woulda stayed in the car
it’s enough that the Miscreant knows he is being Observed for to forestall crime-doing usually I think
the takeaway from the Zimmerman case?
keep your creepy cracker ass in the goddamn car
tell me I’m lying
Remember, when asked for the race of a potential problem, the answer is always “I think he be white”…
I learn by the end of this year, Hispanics be the majority in California, whites will be a minority.
Oh, sweet, sweet minority…
Bring back affirmative action!
“the takeaway from the Zimmerman case? keep your creepy cracker ass in the goddamn car”
Hide under the covers little boy! don’t make a sound…
Maybe the burglars will leave your ass virgin , maybe not.
shhhh
this is just all getting put through a racial lens and it really shouldn’t be for example this was a non-violent situation that turned violent cause someone made a Choice to introduce violence into the situation (yes I’m looking at you Trayvon)
every time violence happens it is very likely someone will get hurt or even killed so introducing violence into a situation is a Risky Choice that can backfire with tragic results to where you die
that plus keeping your creepy cracker ass in the car are the two important things to learn
that plus the justice system in Florida is balls out corrupt
I’d say that the takeaway from this is thump thump thump thump BANG no more thumps. That and Jury’s are generally kind of stupid but not hypnotized.
Jury’s -> juries
Mr. pal when two people are doing wrestling and there is a gun you can’t be for sure who will get shot this happens on tv all the time
you should be very familiar with these dynamics – almost every time the one who dies is the one who will help make a Better Story
think about it
it Trayvon had grabbed Mr. Zimmerman’s gun and shot it to where Mr. Zimmerman died this would just be a regular old crime story and that fascist slut Pam Biondi would not have corrupted the Justice and fascist slut Angela Corey would just be a nameless fat old fascist slut
there would be no story at all really
“every time violence happens it is very likely someone will get hurt or even killed so introducing violence into a situation is a Risky Choice that can backfire with tragic results to where you die ”
You accept violence as a condition of liberty (because there is always those trying to take it), or submit. Zimmerman didn’t “introduce” violence, he dealt with it.
You are a natural woman, deal…
you don’t have to be mean Mr. Lee
don’t make me get out of this car
“that plus keeping your creepy cracker ass in the car ”
or keepin’ the “no limit nigga” in de house
It’s why you are so hateful toward women. You know you are one, and hate it.
Go ahead, marry a man, your friends will pretend it’s real…
i know you are but what am i
This woman would have shot Trayvon’s ass, so don’t blame this on the fairer sex.
“you should be very familiar with these dynamics – almost every time the one who dies is the one who will help make a Better Story”
That certainly made a convenient point to stop reading further.
seems like the “no limit nigga” and his “family”and the “schools” ain’t held accountable for nothing in his life. gotta be the “white hispanic”.
It would be a rare woman indeed that would be out of the house after dark protecting the neighborhood as watch captain.
And a sorry excuse for a husband that would let her.
The Arizona Beverage Company does make Ice Tea, but Trayvon didn’t have “Ice Tea” or even “Watermelon Ice Tea” which doesn’t exist.
It was Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail.
“It was Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail.”
Dig it.
cocktail means they add high fructose corn syrup I think
“but Trayvon didn’t have “Ice Tea” or even “Watermelon Ice Tea” which doesn’t exist.”
yes be stupid about it.
Arizona Watermelon Tea – 24/ 23 oz. cans
Yeah well, a mention of watermelon flavoring ,much like fried chicken, is just another excuse for the usual dim witted seals to arp about racism, from their slippery stone roosts, just barely in sight of the treacherous shoreline of reality.
Nevermind that he’s in the south and that fried chicken and watermelon are common foods enjoyed by most. Just nevermind. The world doesn’t matter. Only the coloring book that teaches about the world matters. Until the gods of the copybook headings return.
poor st trayvon it has been gz’s problem from day 1
AriZona Beverage Company makes refreshing beverage products and sells them at a fair price and in these latter days of failmerica that is no small thing
oh noes st. trayvons “parents” had nothing to do with this and also the school district. no “innocent” [bystanders in the truest form] they be. eff the reparations bowel movement.
Say, that NSA data couldn’t be accidentally leaked to anyone trying to find any of the Martin family in hiding, could it?
Arizona describes it as a fruit juice blend too.
http://www.drinkarizona.com/index_national.html#product_jblend_watermelon
Maybe Sam’s Club just listed it wrong. Maybe they do the same misclassification thing with Langer’s and Snapple and such. Who knows?
“AriZona Beverage Company makes refreshing beverage products”
why was st trayvon buying arizona products? there’s a boycott don’t cha know
Boycott Arizona Iced Tea?
or zimmermans?
Yes, sorry, the Zimmermans.
“but Trayvon didn’t have “Ice Tea” or even “Watermelon Ice Tea” which doesn’t exist.”
st trayvon be drinking watermelon with some skittles and robitussin. just don’t say that.
– According to a call-in on CtoC this evening, a Texas PI says the whole trial and the story will change as the “non medical examiners” criminal actions are exposed in the coming days and weeks.
– That the trial was lost intentionally to keep it as a racial divide to support gun control.
– Strange.
i have some robitussin in the closet i got it a few years ago cause I had put $300 toward some kind of health flex plan just to try it out – this was the year before food stamp canceled the health flex thing – so at the end of the year I had to go to rite-aid and spend $300 on products what were listed on a special web site and one of them was robitussin so
robitussin, I owns some
When I run to the rocks
to hide my face,
the rocks cried out
‘no hiding place’
there’s no hiding place
down here.
“That the trial was lost intentionally…”
*snort!*
Like the “trial” could have been won!
Don’t you need evidence and shit to win a trial?
you should run AWAY from the rocks next time
The process is the punishment. Self defend at your own risk. This is the lesson being taught.
““non medical examiners” criminal actions are exposed in the coming days and weeks. ”
repost
Why Did The Trayvon Martin Funeral Director Lie? – How Does He Connect to Scheme Team?
Trayvon and the Skittles vs. Jem and the Holograms that would be a battle of the fucking bands
“you should run AWAY from the rocks next time”
Grateful Dead 9-5-85 Red Rocks Ampitheatre Morrison CO
– This PI is in the business of investigating rogue med examiners. Says he is in the process of filing actionable court charges against the “non med examiner” in the Zimmermen case. Says the dude is a consultant, not a true ME.
– Said TM was suffucated prior to being shot.
– Said TM was being held from behind and head butted GZ. Did not hit him with fists. No marks on TM hands, but intentionally no autopsy notes were produced, so wasn’t checked.
– Said TM’s body will be exhumed as a part of the trial to come.
– Said the entire case was turned into Sci-OP for gun control. Keep everyone at each others throats and incite rioting to allow police/miltary to step in.
– Weird.
No, I see Travon doing hype vocals (basically the punk-rock version of crowd egging and cheerleading along with angry-dancing and whoops) in a punk act called #Thickdickthursdays
Sounds like this PI is full of shit to me.
– He claimed he’s put 6 other incompetent ME’s out of business, and the Florida group knows hes coming after them.
– Would be a real Bumblefuck bomb if any of its true.
“Said TM was suffucated prior to being shot.”
because when shooting some peep through the heart you never know
“Said TM was suffucated prior to being shot.”
i’m sure mmf smack downs have time outs
– He said the lack of foaming in the wound/cavities proves Martin was already dead and not breathing when shot. But that evidence was also not brouaght up during the trial.
Would foaming in a wound channel remain long enough to be observed and described by a coroner?
The defense gunshot expert seemed to know his shit and didn’t hint of anything beyond Zimmerman’s account.
I’ll take his word for it over a PI that ain’t no medical expert.
– Don’t know really, but its an interesting claim.
– Time will tell if this guys serious. Didn’t sound like a nutcase or conspiracy type, but who knows.
“- He said the lack of foaming in the wound/cavities proves Martin was already dead and not breathing when shot ”
dude back away from this clown. and were zimmerman’s wounds “foaming”?
Just your account makes him sound like a publicity hound.
Whatever it takes to drum up business dontcha know.
Obviously the military killed Travon with the H.A.A.R.P. array all the way from Alaska using his tea can as a local resonator focus. The current relative close proximity of the Nibiru mass black-body to Earth would have made this much easier than in prior decades.
we have photo evidence of the “white hispanics” wounds
holy foaming wound channels baman let’s stop off at Jamba and get a smoothie
sounds good to me boy wonder
I’ve never heard of foaming in a heart shot (and I’ve nailed a few hooved critters in the heart before), but what do I know, I ain’t no PI…
All the death photos of Martin’s body taken at the morgue were made after the body had already been washed prior to autopsy.
This is against standard morgue procedures, but Dr. Bao didn’t exactly have all his oars in the water, either.
“Just your account makes him sound like a publicity hound.”
i’m with rsm: why was st. trayvon in sanford 200 miles from his school during the school term?
My guess is that had Martin shot Zimmerman with Zimmerman’s gun, and it didn’t end up just another unsolved murder, Martin would have claimed self defense and the Sanford prosecutor would have declined to procede to trial.
Maybe the forensics would be different on Martin’s “he pulled a gun on me and I just reacted” statement, but you’d still have the eyewitness problem that the Zimmerman prosecution had.
– I don’t trust anything I read or see any more coming from media or the administration, and I certainly would not put it past the Progressives to try anything to reduce our rights.
– So I may be skeptical, but I’ll be damned if I’ll rule anything out these days. You want to hear it all. Running away from any information, no matter how weird, is not a good idea in these times.
He was expelled from school newrouter, and his mom sent him to his dad’s because of it.
At least that’s the story I heard.
The Wheel shaped Mother Plane is the only other known possible explanation but it has not been given the power to destroy authentic blacks so that rules out its involvement. Also Trayvon might have been taken out by an Australian Aborigine chanting him to death in the Dreamtime or perhaps by a Buddhist miracle originating from some mountain in Tibet. But if so, why would a corpse pound a creepy ass white hispanic’s cracker head on the ground or buy skittles? Corpses are usually way more into Smarties or Cinnamon Red Hots. The mystery deepens.
i think you have it about right Mr. Ernst
misdirection seems to be the baracky’s Modus operandi. all that other stuff – never mind
a pure heart conquers all malice what it is given to the white hispanic to bring
ergo Trayvon’s heart was not Pure
– This task was appointed to you, Trayvon of the Skittles. If you do not find a way, no one will.
– You is one freaky bitch.
” and his mom sent him to his dad’s because of it. ”
and dad sent him to gz’s town where dad’s “girlfriend” lived. keep passing that problem
Funny thing is, if Martin had grabbed Zimmerman’s gun and Zimmerman ended up shot dead , it really would have been a righteous self defense shooting too. He would have been saving his own life.
A valuable thing to keep in mind for those packing…
Moms sent him to live with dad’s girlfriend
Utopia doesn’t look so good close up, do it?
“, if Martin had grabbed Zimmerman’s gun and Zimmerman ended up shot dead ”
except that good’s testimony says st trayvon be the aggressor
Sorry. I just hate Coast to Coast. They jabber on about 2012 and Y2K and then lonely old ladies put their dogs and cats to sleep so they won’t suffer as the world ends. Then it doesn’t end. Scaring the hell out of gullible people to sell them books, potions, secrets, and amulets is just effing sick.
“A valuable thing to keep in mind for those packing”
I mean, you’ve heard possession is nine tenths of the law? So it is with surviving…
I’m not sure that would be true if the facts of the case are the same as the facts of the actual case, i.e. Zimmerman is getting beat to death, tries to defend himself with his handgun and ends up getting shot with it after Martin takes it away.
The real problem is there’s no evidence or eyewitness testimony to contravert that of the survivor of the (real or hypothetical) encounter.
Agree with you about the presence of a firearm escalating the encounter, any encounter, to a whole ‘nother level.
Sorry. I just hate Coast to Coast.
– Yeah, well, that’s nice. Except emotions very seldom actually effect reality. So best to pay attention to everything.
“except that good’s testimony says st trayvon be the aggressor ”
Sure, right up til the time Zimmerman pulled out a gun.
“white hispanic” lynch mob pause
Photo of Zimmerman’s great-grandfather raises questions about racial profiling
Those emotions are are largely based on all the other preposterous lies Coast to Coast has routinely tried to sell me.
Suffocation takes time, more than was available what with all the calls being timestamped, and a very serious intent to kill that person in a most unpleasant, painful, hands on, and prolonged way. It is usually a mark that the killing was personal in someway for the killer.
I think the PI is angling for money somehow and full of shit.
“Sure, right up til the time Zimmerman pulled out a gun.”
you can kill peeps “who are trying to kill you” you can look it up
It never does.
– One way or another, what I see is racial tensions are being intentionally fanned. Make of that what you want.
Let’s be real. If Zimmerman was dead, and couldn’t give his side of the story, then it would be Martin as the sole true witness and he would have been justified saving his own life, regardless if he was punching Zimmerman when the gun appeared.
I woulda had a hard time convicting him.
Again, something to keep in mind. If you pull a piece, ya better keep control of it. I think Zimmerman is pretty studley for being able to bring his gun to bare under the circumstances.
i hate driving at night cause you don’t get to see anything so I hardly ever get to hear Coast to Coast
plus I have way bad night blindness
last time i really drove at night was down hwy 70 in New Mexico
I got up at 2 a.m. without really sleeping and left Hatch and stopped for a bit in Las Cruces – this dickhead who helped me back had loosened the top of a bottle of laphroaig I bought to drink with my friend K in texas and it’d gotten all over some clothes and I thought about doing laundry but I decided to just throw the clothes away
so I drove on to Alamogordo cause of I wanted to see the white sands plus that’s the highway they close sometimes for missile tests
I was night blind on the way and it felt like all I did was lose more and more altitude the whole way – like the whole way was driving downhill – it was fun except for coyotes and deers and skidgets what kept running in front of my scoot scoot
I got to Alamagordo way early and it was still dark which means the sands weren’t open
the only people up looked like Army people and I went to an IHOP I think and had a tasty over-priced healthy omelette and coffee
anyways I was there when the sands opened and got to enjoy some white sandy solitude and that was nice so I’m glad I drove at night that one time but it’s not a wise thing for me to do since I can’t hardly see nothing
“- One way or another, what I see is racial tensions are being intentionally fanned. Make of that what you want. – ”
I’m not arguing with that. I noticed that white people suddenly became whites in 2012.
– I had a similar encounter way back in the 60’s, which I was able to stop and end without actually discharging my weapon.
– After the fact I realized, way before any of the things that we’ve seen in the ensueing decades, including the Zimmerman thing, that a weapon is only useful up until you actually have to fire it. Hopefully your adversary(s) are smart enough not to force your hand. I was lucky I guess.
” If Zimmerman was dead, and couldn’t give his side of the story, then it would be Martin as the sole true witness ”
no good would contradict him. but let’s talk about this rather than bengazi, irs, fast and effed. play their game
Very much agree. And I think we haven’t seen the end of it by far.
I would have too. Especially if all the damning evidence from his phone was excluded.
For my part, that assumes that Martin would claim that Zimmerman pulled his gun, or showed his gun or did something else more threatening than just following Martin.
Despicable, loathsome Angela Corey has deigned to play a word association game on George Zimmerman’s name, calling him “murderer”. This Corey is a person who ought not to be with in a thousand miles of a criminal justice system. Yet she commands one.
“you can kill peeps “who are trying to kill you” you can look it up”
That’s my point. If Martin would have seen in time the gun Zimmerman pulled, and recognized he was about to be killed, he would have been exercising his self defense rights to try and take it away and use it on the one trying to kill him, Zimmerman. No?
‘This is for Trayvon!’ — Gang of Black Men Chase, Beat Hispanic Man in Baltimore
“Society is always just meals, or three footsteps away from kill or be killed”.
“just three meals”…
Zimmerman ought to sue her for defamation.
“One way or another, what I see is racial tensions are being intentionally fanned”
Oh, no doubt.
Also, distracting from all the scandals and phony legislation in the works.
Not that it really matters, we’re a post America anyway, but I guess form has it’s place in the black heart of the progg…
“If Martin would have seen in time the gun Zimmerman pulled, and recognized he was about to be killed, he would have been exercising his self defense rights to try and take it away and use it on the one trying to kill him, Zimmerman. No?”
true but but you have good’s testimony of who was the attacker. mr. “lean” loses
– Yes, distraction would be the other reason.
if I were as fucking nasty obese as Angela Corey you would NOT have tv footage memorializing it
it’s just a self-respect thing people what aren’t nasty fat-ass american fascist whoresluts attend to
remember this when you’re asked to vote for porky porky chris christie against HILLARY
this really is a fight against black/communist run “america”
Not if Zimmerman was reacting to Martin ground-pounding him, or whatever the hell it is all the cool kids call it when you sit on a guys chest and try to pound his skull into the pavement.
On the other hand, had Martin, upon seeing the gun, jumped off of Zimmerman, raised his hands, and yelled “don’t shoot me bro!” and Zimmerman shot him anyway….
That’s my ignorant opinion, anyways.
“Zimmerman ought to sue her for defamation”
How COULD you!? She’s a REPUBLICAN don’t you know!?
Do you want a DEMOCRAT in her place? Well, DO you!?
– You sound confused mustard toes, even more than usual.
oh throw in the fascist “religion” of “mohammed” it is a set piece.
do I?
That can’t be good.
can we get a bob mugabe guide to Rhodesia
“mr. “lean” loses”
Yeah, maybe. Juvie til he’s twenty one and then an expunged record. Meaning, he would have ate better, and learned to be a better criminal when he got out.
“Not if Zimmerman was reacting to Martin ground-pounding him”
You don’t get it. Zimmerman doesn’t get to testify, he’s dead.
She’s a Democrat In All But Label-o, so what’s the difference?
If I lived in Florida, I’d vote for the Democrat before I’d vote for either her or Rick Scott.
““Not if Zimmerman was reacting to Martin ground-pounding him”
see witness good
No, because he was the initial aggressor. But then it would depend on what could be proven in that scenario. This piece may help clear up “self defense”.
“Juvie til he’s twenty one and then an expunged record ”
18 in most jurisdictions
I see what you’re saying about Zimmerman being dead, and while you’re arguing what can or can’t be proven in court, I’m arguing what the law allows. IF the facts are what the Zimmeramn jury determined them to be, the Martin would be guilty of (I think) manslaughter, but I doubt very much that the state could prove that.
But yeah, it’s the Tucco rule in action: if you have to shoot, SHOOT.
The wounds and blood would speak for themselves as well as the recorded phone call with the dispatcher.
and as we discuss this ” product of barack hussein obama’s organizing” his real stupid agenda gets a free pass
Zimmerman is dead. Martin says this cracker jumped him when he was innocently walking home and there was a fight, then Zimmerman pulled a piece. Martin says he managed to point the gun away from himself and Zimmerman was shot in the struggle.
You think Martin would have been convicted?
Sure, keep saying Martin started the fight, but who is going to prove it?
“The wounds and blood would speak for themselves as well as the recorded phone call with the dispatcher. ”
see bengazi or egypt or syria or irs et al. st trayvon is a blessing!!11!!
“Sure, keep saying Martin started the fight, but who is going to prove it?”
broken nose, head injuries. too stupid. hey look “squirrels!!11!!”
There was a fight, Zimmerman was losing. His bloody nose isn’t important. The important part is who started the fight, and generally the living person gets to tell the tale.
I’m not defending Martin, condemning Zimmerman, or expressing a preference. I’m just saying, as Ernst noted, if you pull a gun, shoot. Don’t talk.
Absent an eyewitness, all that forensic evidence tells you is that Martin was winning the fight, not who started it or why.
Neither Martin nor Zimmerman spoke at the trial. The evidence that there was, was that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him when the shot happened. The evidence would show that the gun was Zimmerman’s. If you are on top of someone, beating them, then you take their only means of self defense, their gun, from them, then they are now no longer any threat to you, if they ever were, and so shooting them then is a murder not self defense.
And here we agree. You should never point a gun at anything/one unless you are going to shoot it/them.
Ok Geoff, if that’s what you want to believe would happen, I won’t harsh your mellow.
Baltimore. Yup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZo9kB-vDa8
However, strictly speaking, while Zimmerman didn’t take the stand at trial, he was questioned by police. Martin couldn’t say shit.
Oops! That was some guy talking about it. This is the video. (Baltimore, St. Patrick’s day mob mugging of tourist on phone cam in 2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZy4KoZLJc
Also, witnesses testifying about who was beating who were not all on the same page and hardly a major influence on the jury, IMO, much less who started the confrontation.
Eyewitnesses are notoriously inconsistent.
“The important part is who started the fight, and generally the living person gets to tell the tale. ”
nah st. trayvon’s phone had a tale to tell that was left out like his bastard status.
“Eyewitnesses are notoriously inconsistent.”
oh shut up “creepy ass cracker”
I think we all agree that as an objective matter, that’s true. Subjectively however?
I think Lee is trying to argue the counterfactual that, had it been Martin on trial or in front of detectives, the story would have been the Zimmerman pulled a gun on him and he took Zimmerman to the ground in a struggle over the weapon.
Maybe the forensic evidence would disprove Martin in that case. Or maybe Martin’s story (unlike Zimmerman’s) would have been internally inconsistent or kept changing. Maybe both.
But if the story before the court (or the prosecutor weighing a prosecution) is that of Martin’s apologists (including the prosecution), without sufficient evidence to contravert it, then Martin walks like Zimmerman did. Probably faster than Zimmerman. Because I doubt the hispanic community could have manipulated our institutions of public order and justice into a politically motivated persecution. Maybe in California?
Didn’t say I believed that in the politically whacked judicial system that that outcome would happen, thus “But then it would depend on what could be proven in that scenario”. I’m just going from if Martin had grabbed the gun away and shot Zimmerman he would be guilty of murder for that act as it was not self defense. Proof in that place is a whole ‘nother ball game.
“witnesses testifying about who was beating who were not all on the same page and hardly a major influence on the jury, IMO, much less who started the confrontation.”
you be retarded sir – jantel(stupid idiot class black folk name)
Again, I’m good with the verdict. All I’m saying is, if Martin was able to deflect the gun when Zimmerman pulled it (and who could blame him for the effort, what, you just expect him to meekly take a bullet because he was winning the fight?) and it was Zimmerman who was shot, I don’t think I could convict the kid. He didn’t bring the gun, it was Zimmermans, and his story would be Zimmerman started the fight and there would be no one to say otherwise.
I doubt anyone would convict him.
Add to that, anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting again. Zimmerman was extremely fortunate he achieved “a one-shot stop.” Because you know damn well Corey’s bunch would have used that against him.
I had thought we we disputing this.
see LBascom wants to argue stupid. i want to move on to -bigger- stupid. namely “the effin communist organizer” this asshat needs to be destroyed
I would vote to convict in the Martin case if (IF) the prosecution could prove the facts to be what we know them to be from the Zimmerman case. That, I readily grant is a giant IF. Reasonable doubt is a high standard to overcome.
That’s right geoffb, what we are arguing.
If you get in a fistfight with someone, being unarmed, and the person pulls a gun on you, don’t you have a right of self defense against the elevated threat? Regardless who was winning the fistfight?
A little bit of both, I think. That is, what the law of self-defense allows, and what could be proven in open court when it’s Martin’s version of events instead of Zimmerman’s.
It’s Rashomon without the rape.
(except for the yellow demon’s rapey-rape speak)
“. i want to move on to -bigger”
Well damn newrouter, maybe try dancing a jig whilst balancing a stool on your nose and juggling three running chainsaws.
Maybe someone will pay you attention then…
rape is the things with feathers what perches on the soul
rape and also change
and it sings a tune without words of for reals content, and it sings it incessantly
it’s a lot like american cable news
K, I gotta go to bed. 5 O’clock comes hideously early….
You seem to be assuming in this scenario that Martin only punched Zimmerman in order to make him stop following him. Martin escalated the situation when he took him to the ground and kept punching.
good night Mr. Lee sleep well, not fitfully
More generally, I think it depends on how you get into the fist fight in the first place. You don’t get to ambush and sucker punch a guy who happens to be following you and claim you did it in self defense.
The threat ended when you take the gun away. Shooting after that is not self defense.
What with Zimmerman’s injuries and grass stains on his back and Martin having only bruised knuckles which match with his hitting Zimmerman he would have a hard time making a case that Zimmerman without a gun posed a threat of grave bodily harm to him.
If we are going to change the scene any more than saying Martin grabs the gun away then many things change including what the witnesses saw.
Also the gun Zimmerman had is very hard to grab away as it is small and doesn’t leave much to be grabbed and no leverage when you do that unlike a full size pistol which does have a long barrel to grab and twist.
Sorry, but I’ve got to get some sleep as it’s past 2 am here.
– Earlier I started to type out the whole event as this PI reconstructed it from his POV interpreting the evidence, both presented and unpresented. I decided its pointless unless this guy actually turns out to be the real deal.
– What I will say is his version actually fits the known, and in this case, fill ins he provides, better than what was presented in courst by either side. The only thing his story doesn’t answer is: If Zimmerman was eventually able to get on top and was holding Martins face with his hands, why did he shoot him. The PI said he thinks GZ inteneded to just hold him until the cops arrived but Martin was so panicked he was starting to get free and Zimmerman may have reacted to Martin grabbing at his gun. But that wouldn’t be consistant with GZ smothering Martin. Why shoot him if hes already dead.
– Thats the part that doesn’t fit, so I’d be inclined to think the real story is a mixture of both ideas.
Good point. I just now saw your earlier comment making the same point. Presumably Martin would claim “the gun just went off by itself” (as they tend to do /sarc), and the forensics would either support that, or show that he took Zimmerman’s gun away from him, and then shot him with it.
I think we can also add it’s not self defense to repeatedly beat bash a person’s head against the pavement after you’ve put him on the ground and more or less ended the thtreat to your person in the first place.
As to whether or not that discrepancy would be enough for a prosecutor to proceed?
Racism is all about the endings.
Melting, melting, melting, melting, down, down, down.
LBascom says July 15, 2013 at 11:46 pm
Regardless who was winning the fistfight?
What fistfight? Zimmerman’s broken nose might be consistent with a fistfight, but the damage to the back of his head was not.
A “fistfight” that doesn’t end when someone starts screaming for help, isn’t a fistfight, it’s a battle to the death.
Petula Dvorak at WaPo thinks it was a “fistfight” too.
WOW. Nailed it.
left out in the rain, uncovered, after he died. This mishandling of the body was part of the defense argument.
If Zimmerman was hell bent on killing a young black man, how come he only got one shot off? Seems to me he did exactly what they teach in CCW classes — you shoot until the threat is eliminated. In this case, one shot did that. And then he called the police and waited for them.
charlesaustin, another thing they teach in CCW classes (at least the one I took) is that you don’t look for dangerous situations, and you actively avoid them. While Zimmerman didn’t deserve a beatdown, IMHO he put himself more in harm’s way than he should have. But once he found himself in a situation where he feared for his life, he’s gotta shoot. Alive but suffering through a trial and public approbation is better than dead in my book.
Of course, here in Ohio we have a duty to retreat except in our homes (castle doctrine), and I’m not sure of the law in Florida, so Z may have had different instruction than I did.
How so? It appears to me that Zimmerman wasn’t attempting to confront TM but simply observe him. Given that it was dark and rainy, he couldn’t stay that far away from him.
Right, he was trying to observe. But he didn’t have an obligation to observe, it was his choice. One that, in the whole train of choices made by both parties, led to the fatal confrontation.
Z could have backed off, and didn’t. It wasn’t wrong to keep following TM, but the shooting was a result of that choice. I keep putting myself in Z’s shoes and more often than not I find myself not following. But I also find myself pulling the trigger once the beatdown was happening.
It’s a tough call, one made easier with perfect hindsight. Be honest, if you knew or had a strong suspicion that TM would come back and jump you, would you keep following? I wouldn’t, just because I know I’m not a physical match and the gun would have been my only option.
Eric Holder is to speak today at the NAACP convention. I’m certain he will be quite measured in his remarks. Remarks that indict white people for the crime of our whiteness.
One blow to the back of your head in the right place can kill you. Zimmerman could have been killed by the next impact of his head with the ground.
Those who claim that Zimmerman was in no danger (I’m looking at the fat guy from The Five) are full of poop.
That would be Beckel, no? He’s a walking (sort of talking) example of the long term misfortune of brain damage himself, though it’s doubtful he realizes this fact — a failure which is itself recursive to that damage. But round and round and round he’ll go, because he lives with yet a few paltry capacities remaining to him.
The shooting was the result of the choices Trayvon Martin made, not Zimmerman. Trying to follow Martin was perhaps imprudent, but it was neither culpable nor threatening. And Zimmerman didn’t have the benefit of hindsight.
He didn’t keep following. He lost sight of him at about the “T” walkway intersection. Z went straight on to check out the street address of the house that was at the top far side of the “T” while M went down the leg of the “T” to his father’s girlfriend’s place.
Z was then headed back to his truck to await the cops when M, having come back up to the intersection confronted him and sucker-punched Z knocking him to the ground. M then straddled Z and proceeded to beat him until Z was in fear of his life.
M saw that Z was armed when his shirt got pulled up and told Z that Z was going to die. Z got the gun first and shot M who then collapsed to the side. Z then got atop M to control him as he didn’t know how badly M was injured.
That’s what I thought geoff. All this talk of following seems to spring from the hyperbole put forth by the Martin attorneys.
Martin got all the way home, and still turned around to have it out with Zimmerman?
There are a few uncertainties in that account geoffb, which, at least for my part are puzzling or at least a part of the puzzle we have before us.
For instance, you write “he lost sight of him at about the “T” walkway”. If you mean the physical location of Martin, that’s roughly so. If, on the other hand, you mean the physical location of Zimmerman, I’m not so sure, insofar as I conceive the “losing sight” part of it to have happened much earlier when Zimmerman was still at his truck.
“He ran”, says Zimmerman. Down the “dog walk”, I think, towards Martin’s dad’s girlfriends place.
Hence, the moment Zimmerman loses sight of him (George’s truck headlights were still on, illuminating in the direction of the “T”) was when Martin passed beyond the sight angle from Zimmerman at the truck to the corner of the Lauer house. Where Martin went, how far he ran, whether he continued to run at all is — beyond this point — entirely unknown to us.
I suspect, for instance, that later when Zimmerman passes the T intersection the first time on his way east to the farther street, still talking to the police dispatcher, he would have seen a silhouette of Martin down the dog-walk path had Martin been on it (cast by house lights from down toward the south end of the dog-path), but he did not.
So where was Martin at that moment, some 30 to 40 seconds after Zimmerman last saw him? We don’t know.
All we know about his location is that when Rachel called him back he said he was in the backyard of his father’s girlfriend’s house and then decided to go back and confront Z at that intersection. A 17 year old who played football and was over 6 foot could have gone a long ways in 30 or 40 seconds.
I don’t think he went back up the walkway but came back closer to the homes and was thus visibly blocked by the trees and things.
Right, he was trying to observe. But he didn’t have an obligation to observe, it was his choice.
And so being the captain of the neighborhood watch, currently assigned to patrol, doesn’t put you under any obligation to, you know, observe? He was doing what he was suppose to be doing.
Yep, geoffb, to the extent we can credit Jeantel’s account at all, without splitting a gut bearing the Rachel sized grain of salt on our backs.
Joining Neighborhood Watch was a choice he need not have made. Living in that neighborhood was a choice he need not have made. Surviving to adulthood was a choice he need not have made (he could have attacked an armed man at 17 and gotten himself killed).
I don’t know what’s supposed to be productive about this line of examination. The fatal choice was Trademark’s.
Yes, sdferr, I meant Beckel, but I didn’t know how to spell his name so I referred to him in the pejorative.
The notion that we should all cower in fear, call the cops and hope they handle things in our neighborhoods instead of everyone looking out for themselves, each other and our general welfare is disgusting and cowardly. The notion that we have an obligation to act that way is fucking bullshit.
A cops job is to take pictures and figure out who done it. Protection is everyone’s responsibility.
The prosecutors decide to go for the gold. Fool’s gold that is.
I don’t know what’s supposed to be productive about this line of examination. The fatal choice was Trademark’s.
I agree the fatal choice was T’s, McGehee. I was trying to counter the argument that Zimmerman has any responsibility for the confrontation because he was out there trying to follow Martin. He was out there trying to follow him because that was what he was suppose to be doing – it was his “job”/responsibility to detect, observe, report, and discourage (by his presence) any unknowns lurking in the neighborhood.
It is my belief that her testimony was tailored by both her need to not admit to egging on the confrontation, her handlers, Crump et al, needs to make money settlements, the family’s need to see their son as a good kid, and the prosecutor’s need for a conviction. Keeping all the lies in line with what truth was there too was too much for her and that was why she was so odd on the stand.
Scribe of Slog says July 16, 2013 at 10:41 am
I think I said it badly before, but I was trying to make the point in a prior thread that the reason all this makes no sense to me is that Zimmerman should have been able to talk to Martin, and ask what he was doing. There is nothing hateful or disrespectful about that.
The people saying he shouldn’t have “followed” or attempted to speak with Martin for whatever reason, remind me of the statement that white people can’t or shouldn’t go into black neighborhoods. Is this supposed to be a desirable situation? What parent would want a neighbor to not approach their child to ask what they were doing wandering around the neighborhood after dark, just for safety’s sake?
Nothing about this “outrage” makes any sense.
The way I was reading it it seemed some here thought by choosing to do a Neighborhood Watch member’s job Zimmerman shared in the fault. I apologize if I misread.
The people saying he shouldn’t have “followed” or attempted to speak with Martin for whatever reason,
There’s a twist to being part of Neighborhood Watch though, insofar as the explicit instruction from the organizers of Neighborhood Watch says don’t confront the suspicious characters you may see, but merely report them.
Zimmerman, what ever else he may be, seems to be educable or capable of following the rules he encounters (see his CCW attainments, for instance). So he had no intention — by design — to approach and converse with Martin. Keeping an eye on him at a presumed distance wasn’t ostensibly forbidden, but George’s calculation or imagined model of the scene didn’t include the possibility of a vicious thug intent on turning the tables, hunting himself down and punching his lights out.
*Sigh* OK, I’ll make one more attempt, though apparently I’m the worst communicator ever.
Detective arrives on scene, only it’s Zimmerman dead. Everything Zimmerman said in this case is not said in the circumstances I’m describing.
MARTIN says; “dude was following me, I asked him why. He starts yelling nigger, and says the police are on the way to arrest me and tries to tackle me. I step aside and clumsy cracker falls flat on his back. I laugh at him, and it enrages him more, and he comes at me harder than before. I hit him in the nose, he falls back and cracks his head on the sidewalk. Next thing I know, he’s trying to pull a gun out of his jacket, screaming like a stuck pig (no offence officer). I fall on him to try and get the gun, we struggle, and the gun goes off, straight up through his chin. Then you guys show up, and dude bleeds out.
I don’t know why he was so agitated officer,..”
Now, how you gunna convict the boy?
Who you think you callin’ boy cracka? Gunna? Bittercling much?
how you gunna convict the boy?
If the forensics are consistent with the hypothetical you lay out, and if Martin’s story remains consistent with that hypothetical, then Martin probably escapes justice (n.b. I’m assuming your hypothetical implies that Martin is a lying thug lying out of his ass, and whose “real” actions that night are consistent with what we know from the Zimmerman case).
If I’m following you, your overall point is sort of like the Spiderman admonition: with great power comes great responsiblity, i.e., don’t recklessly or heedlessly put yourself in a situation where your going to have to use that power —but if you have to use it, then do so—decisively.
I think it’s a fair criticism of Zimmerman to say that it would have been more prudent on his part to remain in his vehicle and do his best to observe Martin from there, or that Zimmerman failed to correctly assess the risk to himself that the situation presented. But that doesn’t Zimmerman responsible for Martin’s actions, or what happened after Martin acted.
That said, I don’t believe Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, or imagined himself playing cop, or thinking about making a citizens arrest. I think he was trying to do his best to help the police help him keep his neighborhood safe.
This is a guy who took it upon himself to try to help make the place where he lived a better place for himself and his wife and his neighbors. As someone who lives in what I would call a borderline neighborhood (i.e., it hasn’t gone to shit, but it wouldn’t take too much for it to go that way), I completely respect and sympathize with Mr. Zimmerman.
I wish I could buy him a beer.
Bingo!
I like the idea of Zimmerman staying in his truck too, but driving it up over the curb and chase the little thug fuck down the dog-walk with it. Not necessarily to run the puke over, but just to see how fast a healthy teenager can run. Probably get a reckless driving charge out of it, maybe a disturbing the peace thrown in for good measure, but putting the craaazzy kreepy ass cracka man rapist fear of god in the punk would have been worth it, don’t ya think?
LBascom says July 16, 2013 at 6:37 pm –
What is your overarching point? Is it that in spite of the “racist” brouhaha, Martin would have probably been free (as Zimmerman is) if he had been the only survivor? Or is it that we shouldn’t be too supportive of Zimmerman, as he is the only one who lived, and Martin can’t speak to justify or clarify? I’m sorry, I don’t get it.
In any case, what about the witnesses? I know I heard that at least one witness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman , though he couldn’t see if blows were being delivered.
Please disregard italics. I didn’t close my tag.
At the risk of possibly mischaracterizing Lee’s point (which is a good one, I think, best put by his initial few statements of the situation he aims to observe, at 10:27pm (save perhaps for the “righteous” qualifier there) and again just after that at 10:39pm, prior to his much later added positive law qualifiers), it seems he’s drawing our attention to what we might say is a stark Hobbean ‘state of nature‘ scenario, wherein either combatant can be taken as man qua man, and not taken as a member of a positive law society; where each man is entirely on his own as regards the preservation of his life; where each man is motivated from within himself to see to that preservation (instinctively as we tend to say nowadays), taking up whatever means he may find at hand to achieve it; where the question of “civil” or formal “legal” right does not enter in, if only because in the dynamism of the struggle there is neither time nor will to bring it in. As I think Lee says, at that moment it’s a clear peril of death for either man (qua man), and he bids us look.
Yes, Thanks Ernst, that’s basically it. Thanks for helping out, ‘cuz of, for example, “mondamay says July 17, 2013 at 6:46 am”.
Sdferr too.
I suck, sorry.
I mean thanks too, sdferr. That my point was so cloudy reflects on my clarity of writing.
And not in a good way.
Lee,
When an investigating officer tells Trayvonn (in your hypothetical scenario) that he thinks someone has a video of the incident how does he react? (GZ says Thank God in the actual event) Does his story stay consistent? Does it match the evidence available?
how does he react?
He’ll likely ask for a change of pants.
I dunno Danger.
Did Martin have a duty to run home?
I like to walk in the rain at night, it’s very peaceful. If someone were stalking me, I might check’em out, being as it was my neighborhood now too. Maybe Martin WAS concerned about a perv following him home, seeing where he lived with younger children, same as Zimmerman was concerned about a potential thief canvassing his neighborhood,. Stand your ground works both ways.
It’s been said self defense as a matter of law depends not on who started the confrontation, but on if you think your life is in danger. Think maybe if Zimmerman was belligerent when Martin asked what was up, and then flashed his gun, Martin coulda felt his life was in danger?
Once more, I ain’t saying Zimmerman was in the wrong. On the other hand, Maybe Mr. martial arts student, CCW holder, watch captain, confident that police are on the way, self righteous Zimmerman said/did something that deserved a poke in the nose from someone innocently enjoying the night air, and when shit got out of control for sure wasn’t going to cop to it.
Mostly I think it was a regrettable situation all around, but it’s done now.
Your question does raise another for me I hadn’t thought of before. He said “Thank God” to the video ruse, but I’ve never heard anything about a lie detector test. I know they aren’t admissible in court, but I’m pretty damn sure they are standard procedure in an investigation like this, yet I’ve never heard anything about one…
By the way, I have a pro tip for ya’ll.
If you are ever in a situation where the po-po want you to take a lie detector test, say “sure!”, but don’t let the po-po administer it. Hire yourself an independent tester, they’re in the yellow pages for just a couple hundred bucks, and worth every penny.
Trust me on this, and don’t ask…
He took and passed a polygraph, Lee. I can’t recall where I read it, sorry.
Yeah, but it doesn’t start with suspicions, it starts with actual imminent threats. You’re not standing your ground against a bad feeling about someone.
“Did Martin have a duty to run home”
No, but without some provocative action by GZ he certainly had no right to clean his clock either.
In your scenario Martin says Zimmerman provokes him but this seems inconsistent with his the Facebook tough guy persona (He was much more likely to cause trouble than be troubled) and his fat girl friends phone call just prior to the incident.
And as you recognized our boy genius is likely very susceptible to any number of police interview techniques. Of course he could shut up, lawyer up and have Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the race baiters jump into his court and charges may never be pressed.
Having once lived for 12 years in a part of Sacramento that became gang turf about 6 years in, I might actually have a more effective skill set for being followed by a stranger than Trademark appears to have had.
Whoop-aaaaaazzz, while an option, is much closer to a last resort than a first.
But that may be my White Privilege™ talking.
Whoop-azz generally brings his friends with him. Trayvon shouldn’t have tried to freelance.
” If someone were stalking me, I might check’em out, being as it was my neighborhood now too ”
why was martin there again?
“no limit nigga” found a limit as it approach -1