January 30, 2013

ZOMG!!11!1! Hot weather causes gun violence!! [Darleen Click]

Just as everyone has been convinced, in Jeff’s earlier post, that the writer who believes Chicago must have a lesser crime because of tougher gun laws was engaging in parody, along comes Christie Hefner to knock that into doubt as she seriously posits that Chicago has a higher murder rate than New York because of climate change.

“Yes, last year we hit a record number of murders from guns [in Chicago],” Hefner, the former chairwoman and chief executive officer of Playboy Enterprises, said. “And this year we are already outpacing last year’s numbers. Now, there are contributing factors that are not under anybody’s control and may seem odd, but it is factually true. One of them is actually the weather. There is a dramatic increase in gun violence when it is warmer. And we are having this climate change effect that is driving that.”

Now let’s do a quick comparison that even a ten-year old with mediocre Google skills could whip up …

  • Chicago murders in 2012 – 499 (as of 12/28/12) out of a pop of 2.7 mil
  • Los Angeles murders in 2012 – 297 (as of 12/28/12) out of a pop of 3.8 mil
  • ‘Course the silly twatwaffle isn’t the only bint on Scarborough’s program, twitbiscuit Joe said:

    “Christie, can I just stop you and say conservative bloggers across America, thank you for saying that climate change is responsible for the rising murder rates in Chicago. You have just made a lot of people in their basements of their mothers’ homes very happy.”

    Geez, how do we ever get anything done, when we are in mom’s basement clinging to our guns & God and being all hobbity & visgothery …

    argh

    Posted by Darleen @ 8:05pm
    105 comments | Trackback

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    Comments (105)

    1. Has Christie’s brain been latently eaten up by a severe recreational drug intake while hanging out in her daddy’s homes as a youngster? That seems about as likely an explanation for this particular phenomenon as her goofy climate speculations are for the murder rates in Chicago.

    2. We shall go on to the end, we shall mock them fight in France, we shall mock them fight on the seas and oceans, we shall mock them fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall mock them fight on the beaches, we shall mock them fight on the landing grounds, we shall mock them fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall mock them fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

    3. You be more respectful of Mr. Scarborough! He’s going to help us be more popularer with Democrats.

    4. That kind of help we don’t need, Ernst. We have enough helpful types of our own or so they keep telling us.

      If only we weren’t so Visigothy.

    5. He’s going to help us be more popularer with Democrats.

      - Which for most decent sensible people is like promising They’ll get to have a root canal soon.

    6. fish are jumpin and also the cotton is high

    7. Clean this mess up
      Or we’ll all end up in jail
      Those test-tubes and the scale
      Just get them all out of here
      Is there gas in the car
      I think the people down the hall
      Know who you are
      Careful what you carry
      ‘Cause the man is wise
      You are still an outlaw in their eyes

    8. “Cotton Futures End of Day Settlement Price
      82.39″

      link

    9. - America’s future under the rubric of the Left: A week from Tueday.

    10. I hear you are singing a song of the past
      I see no tears
      I know that you know it may be the last
      For many years
      You’d gamble or give anything
      To be in with the better half
      But how many friends must I have
      To begin with to make you laugh

      Will you still have a song to sing
      When the razor boy comes
      And take your fancy things away
      Will you still be singing it
      On that cold and windy day

    11. “get to have a root canal soon.”

      I was thinking more along the line of a barbed wire enema.

    12. From nr @ 9:34pm link.

      Giffords is unable to articulate her own thoughts so someone else must provide the thoughts for her to articulate.

      How Presidential.

      And an old-school ‘prompter too.

      It’s Potemkins all the way down.

    13. I wonder if Gabby Giffords time in the spotlight will last as long as Cindy Sheehan’s ?

    14. Gabby Giffords ‘testimony’ caused a terribly unkind phrase to come to mind:

      “Meat Puppet”

      Unfortunately apt, though.

    15. OT, and if you can stand a link to K*O*S, here’s how the far-Left mounts an attack on a target using the undeniable power of the new social media.

      Study the methodology, and fear their success.

    16. Hef’s assistant died. Sad.

    17. but yet in all that dallas heat the crime/murder rate is much lower.

      and by the way-it’s climate change now, not global warming. shouldn’t things even out now because it’s getting colder and warmer? or should we go back to stating “global warming”?

      just looking for some consistancy

    18. Chicago Tribune headline this morning: “6 wounded in shootings overnight across Chicago”.

      Current temperature in Chicago: 16 degrees.

      Not just stupid, but actively stupid.

    19. Former Sen. John Warner is demonstrating he has near as little judgment as Christie Hefner, commending Chuck Hagel for SecDef. Everyday we hit a new low.

    20. Not just stupid, but actively, proudly, willfully, defiantly stupid.

      FTFY.

    21. Not just stupid, but actively, proudly, willfully, defiantly stupid.

      Just like Slow-Joe a double-barrel shotgun will keep you safer than an assault rifle Biden!

    22. Chuck Hagel looks like a C student who accidentally got assigned to an AP science class.

      He’s throwing the Reagan card at Sen. Inhofe (R-OK). It’s not working on my boy Jim.

    23. It doesn’t polish Hagel’s native intelligence that he can’t imagine why the Iranian regime would support his nomination to SecDef. It’s a total mystery to him. Poor fella can’t think of a single reason.

    24. Not just stupid, but actively, proudly, willfully, defiantly stupid.

      Publicly, openly, and despicably so.

    25. Well, Hugh never did pick ‘em for brains.

      I hate to even partially agree with Biden on anything, but I’d prefer a short-barreled pump shotgun (not a double-barrel) to anything else in a home invasion scenario.

    26. If Hagel hasn’t proved himself a moron, it’s hard to figure what else would be necessary. But then, he’s an Obazma cheerleader, which alone should have been sufficient.

    27. But, but, a pump-action shotgun can hold an INFINITE number of high-capacity shells!!!!!!

    28. Hagel’s trying to snow McCain (who is doing a great job of kicking him in the balls) about whether or not he was wrong to vote against The Surge in Afghanistan.

      Hagel has said many times (I paraphrase) “Beats me”.

      Cadaverous Bill Nelson is trying to throw Bush under the bus now with the phony no WMD in Iraq line.
      Madonna mi.

    29. Hey! Let’s wave a bloody shirt! That’ll fix it!

    30. Crimeny. Now Nelson is asking Hagel about his combat experience in Vietnam.

      Hagel wants to talk about something else, rather than his heroics and then proceeds to talk about how heroic he was anyway.

    31. Is it possible that Hagel sustained a head injury while he was a ground pounder back in the day. He seems to be dragging his thoughts through a knothole.

      One would think that a SecDef would need to have an elastic and smooth action to his thoughts.

      Sacrifice!

    32. I hate to even partially agree with Biden on anything, but I’d prefer a short-barreled pump shotgun (not a double-barrel) to anything else in a home invasion scenario.

      Personally, I’d rather 20 to 30 shots before reloading over 5 to 7.

    33. Yeah, but XX has about ten bullets every shot, and they don’t kill your neighbors.

    34. This sounds like a stratergery on the part of the Ds: quoting Reagan out of context to advance their ideals.

      I think they think we think of Reagan the way they think of Obama: as a diety and not as a man who happens to be president of these here United States.

      Claire McCaskill is on the Armed Services Committee?! The woman is dumb as a post.

    35. Are sdferr and I the only ones watching this? Or is just that you guys would rather crack wise about guns and I missed the memo?

    36. “Yeah, but XX has about ten bullets every shot, and they don’t kill your neighbors.”

      Right. Aiming while under stress also isn’t *quite* as critical.

      There’s also something to be said for the sound of the slide being racked. That in itself is enough to cause a brown trousers accident for many intruders.

    37. Yeah, but XX has about ten bullets every shot, and they don’t kill your neighbors.

      It all overpenetrates if you miss your shot. Some rounds/calibers overpenetrate less than others. .223/5.56mm is one of those.

      Pays your monies and takes your chances

    38. Hagel is scary stupid.

    39. Are sdferr and I the only ones watching this?

      Quite obviously, you and Sdferr have stronger stomachs than the average bear.

    40. It’s an opportunity to watch a man who can do nothing but fumblingly think and speak in meaningless cliche LBascom. Sort of like a circus freak-show.

    41. Aiming [the shotgun] while under stress also isn’t *quite* as critical.

      It isn’t point and shoot simple either at inside the house distances.

      There’s also something to be said for the sound of the slide being racked. That in itself is enough to cause a brown trousers accident for many intruders.

      For burglars looking to steal your electronics, sure. Home invaders looking for some ultra-violence, topped off with the ol’ in-out in-out? Not so sure.

    42. Still, pretty sure that I’d rather be shot with .223 than 12 gauge at close range (obviously I’d prefer neither).

      But yes, being comfortable with the weapon it is the most important thing.

    43. Any gun is better than no gun, that’s all I know.

      There’s much to be said for a plain old revolver.

    44. The first sound a home invader of any kind ought to hear before realizing something is amiss, is harp music.

    45. The dead don’t really care whether it was a 60 gr. jacketed hollow-point, a 64 gr. soft-point or 00 buckshot that killed them.

    46. There’s also something to be said for the sound of the slide being racked. That in itself is enough to cause a brown trousers accident for many intruders.

      ‘Course, the sound of an AR’s action being cycled isn’t exactly comforting.

    47. Hagel is scary stupid.

      Indeed he is. This man is going to be confirmed and sdferr and I will have to heave heavy sighs and shake our heads and say “we tried to warn you, but you didn’t listen to us when he said thus-and-such”

      Now he’s saying “some of my best friends are Jewish”. He’s made at least 4 references to Reagan, misstated his own record in the Senate, is conflating opinions of Clinton’s with Obama’s, wishes to have us unilaterally disarm—but not really, except when he said that.

      Conflicting opinions, thy name is Hagel.

    48. Here‘s a feel good story, if you’re cynical and bitter like me…

      Almost a decade ago, Europeans and many progressive Americans were lamenting how the United States was going to miss out on the 21st-century paradigm symbolized by the robust European Union. Neanderthal Americans were importing ever more oil while waging a costly “war on terror” and fighting two conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our budget deficit in 2003 hit $374 billion. [...]

      President George W. Bush was not just hated in Europe, but caricatured as the symbol of backward free-market capitalism, rank American consumerism and US imperialism abroad. Only with the election of the progressive Barack Obama would Europe finally find a like-minded, sophisticated American president. [...]

      In short, Europe got the European Union of its hopes and a changed America of its fantasies — but both are rapidly becoming its worst nightmares.

    49. Ron Borsch has served in SWAT, and is now lead trainer and Rangemaster for a regional police training academy. Says Borsch:

      While there can be crossover use among handguns, shotguns, and rifles, each works better for a particular need. Many law-abiding gun owners possess all three for that very reason. For example: at further distances, there is no question that the rifle is the most accurate (and depending on caliber, more powerful).

      Borsch noted that shotguns are generally best at shorter ranges. For sporting purposes, the spread pattern can help when hunting birds, but creates a tactical problem in self-defense: shot may strike something you didn’t want to shoot. Slug loads in shotguns are only accurate out to about 100 yards, but their over-penetration potential threatens innocent bystanders in high-population areas. Also, the length of the average double-barreled shotgun restricts freedom of movement in close-quarter environments like your home.

      Borsch cited the modern police trend towards sporting rifles:

      SWAT stands for Special Weapons and Tactics. Current SWAT preferences lean toward the 5.56mm rifle, because with appropriate ammunition it is less penetrative than most handguns.

      [...]
      Karl Rehn owns KR Training, one of Central Texas’s premiere training academies. They offer an array of beginner through advanced tactical courses. He is a certified police firearms trainer. Rehn believes Biden has no credentials to comment on the topic of self-defense:

      There’s no evidence that he’s ever attended training in the use of a defensive shotgun or a defensive rifle. A politician making a statement at a press conference does not make it true, and in this case the data overwhelmingly contradicts his uninformed opinion.

      Rehn notes the distinction between earlier 20th century gun culture and its more modern manifestation, and that anti-rights politicians are using divide-and-conquer tactics to destroy the civil right of self-defense:

      Biden’s statement was made as part of the current gun control movement’s political strategy to divide Gun Culture 1.0 (rural and older hunting and fishing types who typically own bolt action rifles, pump shotguns, and double action revolvers) from Gun Culture 2.0 (urban and younger gun owners who typically own AR-15?s, Glocks, and other guns on the to-be-banned list). Rifle bullets can travel 2-3 times farther than anything fired from a shotgun, so Gun Culture 1.0 people might agree that a shotgun is “safer.”

      Rehn cited research showing that when using self-defense ammunition, AR-15 rifles have less wall penetration than pistol and shotgun ammunition. (Here, here, and here.)

      In Rehn’s Defensive Long Gun course, he cites nine reasons why modern sporting rifles are safer than shotguns for home defense, including crucial criteria like sporting rifles’ higher capacity and lower recoil. Said Rehn:

      The trend, over the past decade, has been for law enforcement officers to transition from a “patrol shotgun” to a “patrol rifle” (typically an AR-15 with a red dot sight), because law enforcement experts recognize all the advantages listed in the course description.

    50. I prefer “general purpose rifle” or “sport-utility rifle” to “modern sporting rifle,” myself.

      Although, “personal defense weapon” is growing on me.

    51. While there can be crossover use among handguns, shotguns, and rifles, each works better for a particular need. Many law-abiding gun owners possess all three for that very reason.

      Indeed. I think the hand gun is best indoors, where a long gun may prove unwieldy, the shotgun best when confronting someone, say, trying to break into my shop, and the rifle for keeping the EPA off the property altogether. ;-)

    52. Exactly, geoff.

      You’ll have to decide based on the layout of your home what weapon (and caliber) would work best for defensive purposes. A shotgun is great if you’re shooting down some stairs with all your loved ones behind you. It’s terrible if they happen to be in adjacent rooms.

      I plan on getting a shotgun (which I’ll likely just use to hunt), but for my layout, a pistol loaded with quality HP defense ammo — and adorned with a reflex site or zeroed laser and a strobing flashlight — is going to get the job done.

    53. OT: The government is hurting the economy by spending too little.

      You just cannot make this shit up. Anything that you might make up is likely to be earnestly but seriously trotted out by Ezra Klein.

    54. Of course, that new shotgun will probably get lost in another boating accident.

      Trust me, I know it happens.

    55. That’s the new line, Slart. Austerity — punctuated by a trillion dollar one-time stimulus now permanently added to the baseline budget — is the cause of economic contraction.

    56. If I still had a shotgun I would get some of that tactical load buckshot. Doesn’t kick nearly as hard, less wall penetration issues, just as deadly at indoor distances.

    57. Also, I have a friend who is interested in getting into reloading. 357mag/38sp pistol rounds, not a lot of quantity, maybe couple hundred a month tops.

      Any suggestions on a decent, inexpensive starter rig?

    58. “Rifles > Shotguns > Pistols.”

      I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree here.

      He says: “Pump shotguns (especially) can be easily jammed by a nervous shooter, and a “short stroke jam” is very difficult to fix”.

      I’ve never had a short stroke jam with one of my hypothetically owned shotguns, ever, while I can’t think of a single semi-auto I’ve hypothetically owned that didn’t jam on occasion. I recall one hypothetical weapon that just WOULD NOT reliably feed anything but hardball, and even that jammed way more often than I liked (in case DiFi is reading: that hypothetical weapon, one of the ones you don’t like, was hypothetically sold to someone else. It was fun to shoot, but not something I’d rely on).

      I can see that happening to the vomiting guy from a couple of days ago, sure.

    59. I think you’re spot on about the observation about short-stroking (heh, heh-heh) being directed at the dilettante who buys a shotgun for home defense because bowel-loosing slide action and just point and shoot! and watch the cone of death cut the bad guys in half –sending the mangled bit of corpse crashing through windows on opposite sides of the house!

      The kind of guy who leaves his shot gun in the broom closet by the backdoor –unloaded.

      Or Joe Biden.

    60. Beemoe,

      Back over 30 years ago I started reloading with one of these which did both 38 spec and .357. They still work fine but take longer and you are limited in what powder and bullets you can use. I then moved to a kit like this and it works quite well.

    61. That’s the new line, Slart. Austerity — punctuated by a trillion dollar one-time stimulus now permanently added to the baseline budget — is the cause of economic contraction.

      Austerity’s just another word for nothin’ left to spend.

    62. “YOU HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY AND WE’RE GOING TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU!”

      “I wonder why businesses aren’t investing and expanding?”

    63. Yeah, there were some sketchy points in that Rifles > Shotguns > Pistols thing. Like:

      1. They [pistols] are much less effective as Stoppers than a rifle or a shotgun. This is not something to “argue” about. It is simply a FACT.

      Uh, within 30 feet I’ll stack my .357 against your .223 rifle any day

      2. Pistols are harder to aim and hit the target with than other systems. Practice can improve your accuracy, but they cannot be operated as accurately as a shoulder-fired weapon

      Accuracy with a rifle is no better in close quarters (ie, indoors). See above.

      3. Pistols are easier to take away from the shooter than a rifle or a shotgun.

      Don’t buy it

      2. Shotguns tend to have heavy recoil. This slows down follow-up shots. Follow-up shots can be very important, especially if there is more than one opponent.

      That’s just silly.

      3. Shotguns are slow to reload. The more you have to manipulate your system (reloading, etc.), the less ready you are to use it.

      If there’s anything left standing after five loads of buckshot, I bet I could slide three more in almost as fast as changing out a magazine.

    64. It takes more practice, and perhaps a higher level of dedication, to become proficient with both pistols and shotguns than it does with a rifle, is what I would take away from that.

    65. Well, I would advise anyone unwilling or unable to become proficient with their firearm to leave it on the store shelf. Otherwise, if they’re lucky enough to avoid having it taken away and shoved up their ass, they’ll end up puking on the bathroom floor.

    66. I’m too old a bunny to think getting punched in the shoulder is fun anymore. And anything worth shooting once is worth shooting three or four or five times (recognizing the 00 buck shoots 9 times all at once).

    67. (Which was an oblique way of agreeing with you, Lee)

      Although those damn holier than thou know-it-all liberal busybodies are doing their best to undermine my considered decision about what (theoretical) firearm would best suit my (hypothetical) defense needs, force a sub-optimal alternative on me, which I resent for all sorts of reasons.

    68. While they’re asking the NFL and NBA, they could ask The Children™ as well. After all, aren’t they the source of all wisdom?

    69. Crap, just lost a really long and beautifully written rejoinder. Couple quick thoughts…

      Handguns can generally be fired with either hand repeatedly. There may be some difficulty doing that with a rifle or shotgun more than once. Although nothing sucks more than having to rack a slide when your dominant hand or arm has already been disabled or incapacitated. That’s an argument for having one in the chamber if you carry.

      Rifles are hands down the most useful weapons over the most distances and the most circumstances. Inside 40 yards, I would generally rather have a shotgun.

      The average number of rounds fired in actual shooting situations is less than 3. Yes, more is better, but you probably won’t need as many bullets as you think, any anecdotal evidence offered to the contrary notwithstanding.

      Larger bullets with higher energy are unquestionably more effective at stopping any threat, ceteris parabis. Of course, most things are not always equal. As has been noted you are better off with a .22 that you are willing to use and have practiced with than a .45 ACP that scares you or is too heavy so you want have it or practice with it. As has been frequently noted, the first rule in any gun fight is to have a gun.

      I frequently see people advocating 00 buckshot for home defense shotguns. This is a bad idea. Each of those pellets is the diameter of a .38 bullet and they can and will go through mutiple walls and maybe multiple homes. A 3″ 12 gauge shell will have about 15 of those. Birdshot will be quite effective within the confines of just about any home and make you less likely to have to deal with someone in the next house. Or the one next to them.

      Remember, you are 100% responsible for anything that comes out of the barrel of any weapon you are holding. And if you fire a weapon indoors without hearing protection you will damage your hearing. That’s better than being dead, but something to be aware of.

    70. Even Lindsey Graham whacked Hagel upside the fucking melon.

    71. Linsey Graham and Ted Cruz both kicked his ass up one side and down the other.

      And, they’re coming back for more after lunch. Next up: Mike Lee.

    72. Remember, you are 100% responsible for anything that comes out of the barrel of any weapon you are holding. And if you fire a weapon indoors without hearing protection you will damage your hearing. That’s better than being dead, but something to be aware of.

      Precisely why the onerous tax and waiting period on suppressors should be rescinded.

    73. Birdshot will be quite effective within the confines of just about any home and make you less likely to have to deal with someone in the next house. Or the one next to them.

      I think birdshot is a worse idea than 00 buck, myself.

    74. As has been frequently noted, the first rule in any gun fight is to have a gun.

      As it was told to me:

      1. Have your gun.
      2. Have your gun.
      3. Have your gun.

      The instructor left it to us to work out the meaning of each rule.

    75. Each of those pellets is the diameter of a .38 bullet and they can and will go through mutiple walls and maybe multiple homes. A 3? 12 gauge shell will have about 15 of those.

      Actually, they are .32 caliber, and a 2 3/4″ OO typically has 9.

      Thing about a shotgun is, they shoot high mass at relatively low velocity (say, 1400 ft/sec.) while the .223 is small mass at high velocity (about 3200 ft/sec). Over penetration is much less of a problem with the shotgun.

    76. they shoot high mass at relatively low velocity

      Lee, that characteristic is why #4 shot is better: the pellets aren’t that much smaller, but you can pack a LOT more weight of lead into the shell because the slightly smaller pellet packs tighter.

    77. While I wouldn’t load slugs or #9 birdshot, I reckon just about anything would work just fine as long as you don’t live in a house with forty foot hallways.

      Then I’d consider going full choke.

    78. The distances between hunting and defense are sorta interesting though.

      I always imagine that if I can hit something fast at range with a shotgun then there is no way I could miss something slower when it’s closer. There’s probably some assumptions there I haven’t tested out in any meaningful way though.

    79. It’s all about angular velocity – a quickly-moving thing (like a skeet or a frightened liberal) that’s far away from you only requires small, slow corrections to your aim.

      Compare to, say, having an annoyed cockatiel loose in your house, flapping all around you like a crazy thing. Hard (and expensive) to hit with a shotgun, well-nigh impossible to hit with a handgun. It’s why they invented the tennis racket. And the cat.

    80. Angular velocity sounds far better than how it was rattling around my head as “closer seems faster”, JB.

    81. Clearly, a fragmentation grenade is the solution to that problem. They really need to start selling those at Walmart.

    82. I’d settle for being able to roll a flash-bang down the stairs if I had to (God forbid).

      .223 is high velocity, but sheds that energy rapidly relative to the slower, but longer energy retaining buckshot. Birdshot of course sheds the fastest once it opens up.

      And the point of those Box-o-Truth tests is that all of it is going to go through multiple walls if you miss your mark. All of it. If you go with something like birdshot because of penetration concerns, it can’t be relied upon to stop a hobgoblin high on “goofballs and horse tranquilizer,” as Larry Correia aptly put it, adding:

      So if you’re going to get into a gunfight, bring a rifle. Heck, bring friends with rifles.

      Now another concern that always pops up is over penetration. People are worried that the more powerful guns are going to poke through more walls of their house, and potentially endanger their neighborhoods.

      Here’s the thing. Remember good old Safety Rule #4. Be aware of your target and its environment? It still applies. You are responsible for where your bullets go, even in a gunfight.

      And since you’re trying to stop somebody, any round powerful enough to poke a deep enough hole to reliably damage a person, is powerful enough to penetrate a bunch of building materials. TANSTAAFL. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.[emphasis added]

      And that’s why, hypotheticaly speaking, I favor the rifle. Because that’s what I would feel most confident in using to put rounds on the target, and not the wall beside or behind the target. Shotgun would be my second choice.

    83. Ernst, I believe you’ve nailed it. Figured out what is my #1 go-to home defense gun, that is. Lever action carbine-length rifle chambered for a pistol round, the .44 magnum. Slow enough to be containable within a brick structure, with enough energy to stop a crack head on meth or PCP. Innocuous enough to hang on the wall. Fully loaded, of course.

      Let’s see any of ‘em come for the lever guns. Even New York liberals wouldn’t dare.

    84. As my CCL instructor succinctly put it, every bullet that you fire comes with a lawyer attached. Even if you are 100% in the right, you will be sued afterward. Call it the Treyvon Effect.

    85. .223 is high velocity, but sheds that energy rapidly relative to the slower, but longer energy retaining buckshot. Birdshot of course sheds the fastest once it opens up.

      You may be right, but I find that hard to believe. Buckshot is essentially a musket ball, a lead sphere fired down a smooth barrel. The .223 is a ballistic bullet.

      I’d be interested in seeing a test, both guns shot at a series of plastered 1/2″ plywood walls set at, say, 5 yards, 25 yards, 30 yards, and 50 yards (to simulate firing inside your house and through a neighbors) and see what happens.

      I’d bet $20 the lead shot would have nothing left after two walls, and the bullet would slice through all four no problem.

    86. As my CCL instructor succinctly put it, every bullet that you fire comes with a lawyer attached. Even if you are 100% in the right, you will be sued afterward.

      This is true, although TX has tried to mitigate that by putting into the law that a shooting you were justified in making can’t be used as lawsuit fodder, and also that collateral damage from a justified shooting is the problem of the one who became shot. It won’t save you from shooting like a NYC cop (60 bullets / 4 hits), but it tends to deter the average relatives / heirs / assigns.

    87. I’d be interested in seeing a test, both guns shot at a series of plastered 1/2? plywood walls set at, say, 5 yards, 25 yards, 30 yards, and 50 yards (to simulate firing inside your house and through a neighbors) and see what happens.

      This isn’t exactly that, but I think it answers the question definitively. Shotgun vs. 5.56. (pg 3)

    88. This is a good one too: various .223 loads, .45 acp, 9mm, .380, 7.62×39, and 12 ga. 00 buckshot against sheetrock.

    89. Excellent discussion and video. Thanks.

    90. So, the buckshot will go through three (interior) walls with nothing left, and the ,223 will go through six and maybe more.

      Sounds about right.

    91. Oh, that was the #4, the 00 did four walls. I think I will take SDN’s advice and use the #4.

    92. I’d like to lay hands on some of this Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot, but it’s nowhere to be found. I guess it’s just as well with my shotgun being at the bottom of the lake and all.

    93. Reduced and standard loads of buckshot pass through four sheetrock walls set ten feet apart. Just like .233, .45 acp, 9mm, etc. etc.

      “Until someone invents a “Phaser” like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.”

    94. Ernst, walls have sheetrock on both sides, so that’s two walls. Interior walls that is. Pablo’s link was more instructive I think.

    95. Sorry if I sound like a broken record here. I just want everyone to fully understand that there’s no ideal combination of weapon and load. They all have their tradeoffs.

      But understanding that and accepting responsibility for it, instead of foisting it off on professional, expert first responders, is part of what sets citizens apart from subjects.

    96. I’m can’t say for sure if the Box O’ Truth guy double-sided his frames or not. The second guy I linked did, and got the same results.

      There’s also the Insulated Walls test from Box O’ Truth.

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