January 29, 2013

Militarizing the police

Oh, this is reassuring:  while Congress is working to take away your “military-style assault” rifle / pistol / shotgun, an Arkansas Mayor and his Police Chief, citing high crime, have decided they can run their very own mini police state.

Good thing we exempt police from any potential gun-control laws Congress is hoping to push through.  Because really, what could go wrong?

“[Police are] going to be in SWAT gear and have AR-15s around their neck,” [Police Chief Todd] Stovall said. “If you’re out walking, we’re going to stop you, ask why you’re out walking, check for your ID.”

Stovall said while some people may be offended by the actions of his department, they should not be.

“We’re going to do it to everybody,” he said. “Criminals don’t like being talked to.”

[Paragold Arkansas Mayor Mike] Gaskill backed Stovall’s proposed actions during Thursday’s town hall.

“They may not be doing anything but walking their dog,” he said. “But they’re going to have to prove it.”

[ ... ]

“To ask you for your ID, I have to have a reason,” [Stovall] said. “Well, I’ve got statistical reasons that say I’ve got a lot of crime right now, which gives me probable cause to ask what you’re doing out. Then when I add that people are scared…then that gives us even more [reason] to ask why are you here and what are you doing in this area.”

Stovall said he did not consult an attorney before announcing his plans to combat crime. He even remained undaunted when comparing his proposed tactics with martial law, explaining that “I don’t know that there’s ever been a difference” between his proposals and martial law.

This right here is why we need to defend the Second Amendment with our dying breath.  There are always those willing to grant themselves permission to abuse power under the guise of doing public good.

If this plan takes effect, Paragold, Arkansas will effectively and officially be a police state in the mold of North Korea.  Land of the free?  Another useful fiction that we’ll be told we need to surrender for safety and security and the children.

And I bet that gives Police Chief Stovall a giant LEO woody.  Which he’ll probably embrace as part of his permanent uniform by decorating it with epaulets and maybe a few very small medals.

 

(h/t Lee)

Posted by Jeff G. @ 11:51am
159 comments | Trackback

Comments (159)

  1. Arkansas is full of perverts (cf. Bill Clinton, Tony Alamo, et al) and hasty judicial opinions (cf. West Memphis Three).

    Land of Morons, it is.

  2. “Ihre papiere, bitte. Macht schnell!”

  3. Can we count on our late-night hosts to heap scorn and mockery on this police chief, the way they did to Jan Brewer when she dared to enforce immigration law in Arizona?

  4. Fabulous, I can hardly wait for the first ambush that kills a cop or two. As soon as that happens, the city will really clamp down.

    This has all the earmarks of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    And I’m sure the police chief can hardly wait.

  5. This asshole is going to get himself sued in short order.

  6. I’d love to see the city council require officers to say, “Ihre papiere, bitte. Macht schnell!” as their first words before asking citizens to, well, show their papers. Now!

    Seems to me the real death of this will come when their encounter “undocumented” citizens.

  7. I wonder what the police response will be to “go fuck yourself, comrade”?

  8. Maybe they can take everyone’s lunch money while they’re at it.

  9. I wonder what the police response will be to “go fuck yourself, comrade”?

    Nothing good, I’m sure. Which is too bad, since that really is the only correct answer.

  10. Statistical evidence is now probable cause to stop citizens on the street. The good citizens of Paragold need to tell these facist wannabes to pound sand.

  11. Baby steps. First, frisk Granny on the street. Second, no knock searches back at the ranch.

    I see many a trusty dog taking a bullet for his master when these shitheels come a-knocking.

  12. I see many a trusty dog taking a bullet for his master when these shitheels come a-knocking.

    You think there’ll be that many? I figure any self-respecting town is going to choose dogs over pigs, when it comes right down to it.

  13. I’m just going on experience with trigger-happy sherrif’s deputies in rural areas. We had a douchebag sherrif’s deputy who made a practice of shooting people’s dogs when he answered calls. He’s not on the force anymore.

    If the citizens start knocking off the po-lice when they overstep, it could be like that town in Missouri (a little help, charlesaustin) where the townies whacked the town bully in broad daylight and “nobody seen nothin’”. Unsolved to this day.

  14. Statistical cause for a stop-and-frisk?

    Yeah, right.

  15. I doubt the Chief has those “stats” at the ready. If I were the local Lois Lane, I’d be all over this and have those “stats” published on the front page of the local rag.

  16. Meanwhile, we’re busy making the military into an ineffective, international police force.

    Such a weird wilderness we’re entering.

  17. “Criminals don’t like being talked to.”

    neither do normal people really

    i hope people just tell these arkie trash gaywads to go fuck themselves

    and then they can say hah just kidding

    and then they can say no really go fuck yourself

  18. Make sure the chief is the first to go. Right after that should be the mayor and city council that didn’t fire his ass right there.

  19. and maybe a few very small medals.

    I think I’ve seen that in some of the recent p0rn.

    The power has really gone to that Chief’s “head”, hasn’t it?

  20. Miami (or maybe it was Ft. Lauderdale, I don’t remember which) tried this some years ago and it was tamped down by the courts and public outrage rather quickly.

  21. This clown of a police chief apparently doesn’t comprehend the Constitution and the established laws of stop and frisk, let alone search and seizure. I expect his officers do however and will tread very lightly, because they can get caught up in a lawsuit in a hot minute for violating the law. They have to have reasonable suspicion of illegal conduct to make the stop. Or, if they do try, you can refuse to stop and talk with them. It’s a silly bluff and both the mayor and chief are buffoons.

  22. From Spies link:

    Hensley said he would be happy to see police do exactly what they had proposed Thursday.

    “If that’s what they want to do, let them do it,” he said.

    “As long as something will work [to combat the area’s high crime], I don’t care.”

    Whereupon Chief Stovall informed Hensley he would be by Tuesday nights to fuck his wife, ‘cuz that would really help…

  23. Looks like there’s a lot of scope creep going on…DHS re-positioning ammo containers around the country (http://tinyurl.com/av9yo9n)… DEA wanting access to everyone’s medical records without consent or warrant (http://tinyurl.com/a3agukz).

  24. Pingback: The Perils of a Standing Army | Bring the heat, Bring the Stupid

  25. Really, what’s the diff between this and TSA grabbing your junk? Just a matter of degrees. Stick to your guns.

  26. Jeff wrote:
    “[A]n Arkansas Mayor and his Police Chief, citing high crime, have decided they can run their very own mini police state.”

    Looks like Arkansas is going to the dogs.

    Now, Giuliani, it is said, “cleaned-up New York” using very similar “stop-and-engage” tactics. ‘Not sayin’ I like it, but word is it worked!

    Still, it says a lot that counties in today’s Arkansas resemble 1970’s NYC.

    Leigh,
    We like our County Sheriffs in Arizona.

    Here, they have to navigate a mine-field of overlapping Federal agencies, state civil-service regimes (like CPS, FS, County AG’s, ADOT) all while enforcing private parties’ daily claims, ranging from landlords’ eviction orders to arrests for domestic abuse.

    Not only are they visibly busy to us citizens, but they are more accessible to individual residents in rural America, than, say, city police or Federal Border Patrol agents headquartered in towns miles away are.

    It’s my opinion Sheriffs “feel our pain” better.

  27. “We had a douchebag sherrif’s deputy who made a practice of shooting people’s dogs when he answered calls. He’s not on the force anymore.”

    Some douchebag comes and shoots my dog, he’d better have life insurance, cause he’s likely to get that reciprocated in his face.

  28. oh wow he really is a PigBoy

    pigboys should go out of their way to be nice to normal people I think

    this one is doing it wrong

  29. Now, Giuliani, it is said, “cleaned-up New York” using very similar “stop-and-engage” tactics. ‘Not sayin’ I like it, but word is it worked!

    Giuliani had a stated policy of demanding papers from every person on the street?

    Don’t think so.

  30. here is the story of the missouri bully what is dead but nobody knows what happened

  31. Thanks happy. There was a movie about it, too.

  32. That report Jeff quoted was from 15 December. Here’s the latest news from Arkansas:

    Paragould police have canceled the remaining two town hall meetings that had been planned to discuss crime in Paragould after extensive public outcry over the department’s controversial proposal to lower the crime rate.

    While a press release on Sunday made it appear as though PPD was reinforcing its decision to use armed foot patrols to stop citizens on the street and request identification, along with a reason for them being in the neighborhood, starting in 2013, the decision by police to cancel the town halls late Monday afternoon left those plans unclear.

    In a statement on PPD’s website, the department said the town hall events were canceled in the interest of public safety after speaking with “numerous” residents and non-residents on Monday.

    “Some of the correspondence has caused us great pause in whether or not the meetings should remain as scheduled,” the statement read.

    “We feel that with the strong feelings on both sides of the Street Crimes Unit issue, a safe and productive meeting would not be the probable outcome.”

    The meetings, scheduled for today and Thursday at 7 p.m., would have followed two previous meetings on Dec. 11 and Dec. 13.

    Sunday’s press release struck a softer tone than Police Chief Todd Stovall’s harsher rhetoric at the Dec. 13 meeting, where he announced the creation of the street crimes unit.

    At the time, Stovall said the street crimes unit would be deployed to high crime areas and would make contact with all pedestrians.

    “If you’re out walking, we’re going to stop you, ask why you’re out walking, check for your ID,” Stovall told a crowd of nearly 40 that had gathered at West View Baptist Church.

    Mayor Mike Gaskill followed Stovall’s statements by explaining that a simple walk with a family pet could get a resident stopped and questioned.

    “They may not be doing anything but walking their dog,” Gaskill said. “But they’re going to have to prove it.”

    Sunday’s press release, while softer in tone, essentially restated Stovall’s original position.

    The release said once an area had been identified as a “high crime neighborhood,” officers would saturate the area in order to combat the crime.

    “Officers would be working to identify residents in the affected area so that we can better serve our affected neighborhoods,” the release said.

    Many times, the release said officers would not do anything more than make contact with subjects, handing out business cards and asking whether police could do anything for the subjects.

    “During hours in which crime seems to be more prevalent (i.e. between the hours of 11 p.m. and 5 a.m.), our process will become more stringent,” the release continued. “We will be asking for picture identification. We will be ascertaining where the subject lives and what they are doing in the area.”

    Using information gathered during the patrols, police would then create a database of “go-to” suspects that could be questioned regarding crimes in the area.

    During a visit to Stovall’s office Monday, he would not comment other than to say Sunday’s press release “speaks for itself.”

    Therefore, it also remains unclear, if PPD forges ahead with its proposal, what course of action officers intend to take against citizens who fail to comply with requests to produce identification.

    Stovall also failed to return calls Monday afternoon to comment on the department canceling the meetings.

    PPD said its officers would also be in SWAT gear and carrying AR-15 assault rifles, though not on a consistent basis, according to the release.

    Stovall explained Dec. 14 that while he had not consulted an attorney regarding the patrols, the department was within its right to implement the controversial stop-and-ID policy based on crime statistics and citizen complaints about rising crime in their neighborhoods.

    Gaskill stepped back somewhat from his original position the day after the town hall event, explaining that police would respond to calls from residents reporting crime and would seek suspect descriptions versus random stops.

    Gaskill also said PPD would not be profiling residents.

    The PPD’s plan for the street crimes unit did not comfort some Paragould residents.

    One of those residents, Richard Wright, lives on the east side of town and was out for a walk Monday morning.

    “I don’t really like it,” he said.

    Wright said if he were stopped simply for walking his dog down the street, he would be offended, though he felt he did not have any other choice to comply given the comments Stovall had made.

    But another Paragould resident, Steven Hensley, said he was just fine with the proposed patrols by Paragould police.

    “I think it’s great,” he said. “I know things get stolen around here. I’ve had a bunch of stuff stolen.”

    Hensley said he would be happy to see police do exactly what they had proposed Thursday.

    “If that’s what they want to do, let them do it,” he said.

    “As long as something will work [to combat the area’s high crime], I don’t care.”

    Attempts to contact city attorney Allen Warmath on Monday were unsuccessful because he was in court.

    Gaskill’s secretary said the mayor was on vacation this week and was unavailable for an interview.

    -’[T]he town hall events were canceled in the interest of public safety’, my arse.

    -Steven Hensley, report to the Ministry Of Truth.

    Link: http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2012/12/18/top_story/doc50d08e9fb2588217300183.prt

  33. Apologies, I meant to write ‘Here’s the follow-up report…’

  34. Someone identify the “affected area”‘s cultural breakdown? It might be time to summon the Reverend Jesse Jackson and his trusty sidekick the Reverend Al Sharpton.

    I’ll need to go out for popcorn.

  35. The same report last filed a report on this story on 22 December where the Chief tried to throw some more BS at the public, but still vowed to implement his plan.

    http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2012/12/22/top_story/doc50d5dbaf8f93a986941975.prt

  36. ‘The same reporter last filed….’ – I really need a secretary who can proofread [about twenty-two, half-Italian/half-Greek, willing to work long hours].

  37. Now, Bob. Think about that: that’s a lot of temper to deal with.

  38. Hey, I’m married to a gal who is half-Irish catholic/half-Sicilian – such a secretary would be a piece of cake after what I’ve been through, leigh.

  39. Yes, indeed. Also easily distracted by shiny objects and fancy lunches.

  40. - Temper can be a feature if its directed in the right ….. erm….. area.

  41. Temper can be a feature if its directed in the right ….. erm….. area.

    I don’t know. Was Lorena Bobbitt Sicilian?

  42. Pingback: What The Future Holds: Martial Law And Order « The Camp Of The Saints

  43. If the citizens start knocking off the po-lice when they overstep, it could be like that town in Missouri (a little help, charlesaustin) where the townies whacked the town bully in broad daylight and “nobody seen nothin’”. Unsolved to this day.

    Ah, yes. Skidmore, MO.

    Grew up not far from there, on the Iowa side of the border.

    Was a topic of numerous conversations for quite a few years…

  44. I don’t think Mzzz. Bobbitt was Sicilian – her husband lived.

  45. I am wishing I had thought about a parachute before leaving the plane.

  46. Bob,
    Shutting down public meetings is not American. You sure this is happening in Arkansas, USA? Citizens do not need official sanction to hold meetings! The concerned folks could adjourn at a private home or church if they need.

    This sounds bunk to me!

    My gut tells me that most of the folks who can leave that county already have (I know I would have), which leaves that flammable mix of derelicts, abandoned real-estate and an embattled law-enforcement regime behind.

    All of which sounds like something out of the dystopic movie Loopers. That’s the sort of thing I prefer to see in my rear-view mirror, not outside my kid’s nursery window!

  47. I believe she was from Central America.

  48. “Convene!” And, then adjourn.

    I mean.

  49. Leigh, can’t help you on the bully thing. I’m not native and don’t know anything about that area of Missouri, nor the Milk Nazi’s – “No Milk For You!”

  50. It’s okay. We got it sorted out. I didn’t know about the milk nazis, either.

    I do know that you can get tuberculosis from raw, unpasteurized milk. Or listeria or E. coli poisoning.

    No thankee.

  51. yup they should irradiate that crap

  52. Yes they should. That and ground beef.

    They’ve been doing it in Europe for 40 years. I don’t know what the hold up is over here.

  53. Just anent the militarization of the military is the disappearance of decent reporting from the executive to the people what the executive is planning and doing already on the various fronts in which the war against the Islamist fascists is being fought. This sonofabitch doesn’t bother to say, let alone to ask. No one knows what’s next even as what’s next is being carried out, silently. Trust his judgment? Sure. Sure as put your head in a lion’s mouth with the expectation the beast won’t bite down.

  54. I do know that you can get tuberculosis from raw, unpasteurized milk. Or listeria or E. coli poisoning.

    liberty is letting you do to yourself whatever as long as no other person is harmed. stop using the collectivist “public health” to take control of the individual.

  55. ” or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,”

  56. liberty is letting you do to yourself whatever as long as no other person is harmed. stop using the collectivist “public health” to take control of the individual.

    I’ve had to call to have a kid life-flighted to a bigger hospital before because his kidneys were shutting down from E. coli 0157:07.

    There’s liberty and there is responsibility. You don’t dig a well downhill from a septic system, either.

    Even if you want to.

  57. “I don’t know what the hold up is over here.”

    Stupid hippies, mostly. They think of “radiation” the way that a savage thinks about evil spirits.

  58. I do know that you can get tuberculosis from raw, unpasteurized milk.

    wiki

    “Tuberculosis typically attacks the lungs, but can also affect other parts of the body. It is spread through the air when people who have an active TB infection cough, sneeze, or otherwise transmit their saliva through the air.[2] “

  59. There’s liberty and there is responsibility.

    and as a nanny statist, you’ll tell us what THAT is

  60. Spies, yes hippies and hipsters are indeed the hold-up. I don’t get it that the Eurpoeans irradiate their food, but get all panicy about GMO foods.

    It’s a special kind of stupid.

  61. nr, fuck off. You want license not liberty.

  62. If it saves just one CHILD, then it’s worth it!

    meh.

    Fort-hechild-ren is a Buddhist monastery high-up in the Himalayas. And that dog’s not hunting these days.

  63. nr, fuck off. You want license not liberty.

    yea drinking unpasteurized milk is up there with orgies. can i drink my urine if i want to? eat my sh&t? can i eat dog sh&t if i want to. go away “public health” statists.

  64. nr, fuck off. You want license not liberty.

    nah i want failed behavior, as shown through recorded human history, to be shown to a gramsci schooled population. let’s march back through the institutions with a resounding giggle at their stupid ideas.

  65. They’ve been doing it in Europe for 40 years. I don’t know what the hold up is over here.

    Dumbass liberals think the radiation stays in the food. They never been too good at science.

  66. That’s true. Sadly, some of our own are anti-science, as well.

  67. Bob B., I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask if the crime problem might be due to a large number of convicted felons that have been caught and released? Or, due to prison crowding, let out early? Lax sentencing?

  68. Sadly, some of our own are anti-science, as well.

    I do know that you can get tuberculosis from raw, unpasteurized milk.

  69. We should have a hundred more nuclear power plants by now, if we’d followed France’s lead in the ’70′s. Instead, we are watching the coal-fired plants attacked by the same leftists who opposed nuclear, with no real replacements for either due anytime soon.

    These bugfuck-moonbat nirvana-dreamers have no clue as to how much energy we need to sustain our civilization, much less grow it.

  70. newrouter, there are several different kinds of tuberculosis, one of which is common in unpasteurized milk. Wikipedia is not a definative source for medical information.

  71. CharlesAustin:
    “Seems to me the real death of this will come when their encounter “undocumented” citizens.”

    That comment is a diamond in the rough! I drafted something related to “documentation” while listening to Mark Levin’s broadcast today, but I was going to let it age for a day or two before posting it.

    Oh well, you made me do it:

    I just heard Mark Levin’s guest, Senator Marc Rubio, expound on his designs and rationales for immigration reform.

    He remarked on Obama’s “unproductive” pushing and prodding for legislators to “act now.” Marc Rubio may or may not have known that, viewed through Alinsky’s monocle, Obama’s choice to ramp-up “the urgency” makes sense on three levels:

    1. It impresses again that “Immigration Reform” is exclusively Obama’s party’s agenda item. This is false of course (Republicans undertook bipartisan reform of immigration under Reagan), but urgency is its own message in televised politics, and truth is mud.

    2. The prodding might just panic Conservatives to present stupid-ic solutions and commit uncomfortable gaffes in public forums. “Illegitimate Immigrant” is one Aiken-ic cognate that Boehner might want to avoid saying on the floor, for instance.

    3. Hurry-up! Fast! Tout de Suite! gets Obama to his goal faster. Any bill with a chance of getting through Harry Reid’s Senate will incorporate bipartisan regimes for increasing citizens’ “documentation,” with expanded ranks of tax-payer-funded registrars.

    Forward! Faster! Now! This is where the Progressives always want to go: increased registration of citizens in diverse registrars ‘folios AND further proliferation of Leviathan’s regulatory tentacles.

    What part of “Forward” don’t you get!

    Last week the ploy used children to register gun-users. This week, it employs “undocumented immigrants” to register ‘immigrants’. Next week?

    But the beat goes on…I like Rubio’s approach and he’s an excellent spokesman for the GOP. But, I fear the race is fixed against his horse. Any workable solution will be scuttled in the Senate just to keep the issue alive for 2016 and beyond.

  72. “and as a nanny statist, you’ll tell us what THAT is”

    If you want to shoot heroin, drink yourself to death, whatever: live it up.

    If you want to drive while doing those things, you get put in jail.

    If you’re spreading diseases, you get quarantined.

    Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

    Pretty simple.

  73. “Wikipedia is not a definative source for medical information.”

    Though it does have a good article on bovine tuberculosis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_tuberculosis

  74. SBP says January 29, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    Amen.

    Thanks for the link, too.

  75. M. bovis was once a common cause of tuberculosis, but the introduction of pasteurized milk has largely eliminated this as a public health problem in developed countries.

    wiki

    Tuberculosis vaccines

    leave us alone big gov’t nanny. we can do it on our own.

  76. Census data for Paragould. Never mind, Jackson, Sharpton.

  77. “M. bovis was once a common cause of tuberculosis, but the introduction of pasteurized milk has largely eliminated this ”

    Yes. Pasteurized milk. Which is not raw milk.

    Try reading the “wiki” before you quote it, dude.

  78. If you’re spreading diseases, you get quarantined.

    yea the political correct faggots didn’t have that hoop to jump in the ’80s. but the politically challenged nips did in ’42.
    eff your statism.

  79. Dude, you’re arguing for anarchy now. It’s not the same thing.

  80. Yes. Pasteurized milk. Which is not raw milk.

    i’ll drink anything i damn well please. quit putting state power into what i want to drink bloomberghead.
    the desire to control runs deep

  81. He doesn’t know what he’s babbling about.

  82. “yea the political correct faggots didn’t have that hoop to jump in the ’80s. ”

    Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Never did. Never will.

    Your mom didn’t buy the “all the other kids are doing it” crapola when you were six. What makes you think we’re going to buy it now?

    Infectious disease is only of the only areas where I think “nanny statism” is justified. That’s why I support water chlorination, but not fluoridation. Cavities are a personal problem. If you’d rather have bad teeth than have your precious bodily fluids polluted, live it up (or you can use fluoride toothpaste, fluoride rinses, whatever). Unchlorinated water spreads your diseases to other people. You don’t get to do that. Sorry for that severe infringement of your personal liberty.

    If you want raw milk, buy a goat. No one will stop you from drinking it straight from the teat. You just don’t get to sell it to other people.

  83. Leigh,
    I just want to let a million flowers bloom. Freedom, man! nr ‘s got it right.

    If folks want to buy thems some chlorinated cow tit for their cheerios, let ‘em. And if folks want some unchlorinated mooze, then they’re free to use that, too, right?

    N so they can have that on their captain crunch, or on their wheaties, or their cuckoo cocoa puffs or their Quaker-brand granola, too. Because that’s fucking America man!

    N if you don’t like it, you can leave it!

    N if folks want to live in the upper P of Michigan in the winter, they’s can do that, too, and with raw milk moustaches, even. ‘Cuz they’re Free. Even though I think they’re crazy. But, go ahead, if it floats your boat!

  84. “i’ll drink anything i damn well please.”

    See above. I don’t care if you want to suckle your Great Dane. Whatever floats your boat.

  85. Paragould, a meth stronghold?

    I recently interviewed several local residents who are deeply concerned about the potential for abuse (violation of rights) by local law enforcement and the refusal of the Mayor to listen to their repeated requests for answers. The local residents have requested anonymity due to the fear of retribution for speaking out.
    ‘What few people are talking about is the meth problem in Paragould…We are faced with an out of control Police Chief who has not only threatened to violate our Constitutional Rights…what most people don’t realize is the fact that his brother who works in the IT Department is already building a database of information on each citizen without obtaining a warrant’, stated a concerned citizen.

    ‘The Police Department is understaffed’…working at the same levels as 10-15 years ago…Maybe there is a mismanagement of resources at the city and county levels’.

    ‘We simply want answers…the recent statement of clarification posted on the Pargould Police Department’s website (http://paragouldpolice.org/press_view.php?id=82) does nothing to allay the fears stoked by the Police Chief and Mayor Mike Gaskill…the statement is mere sophistry presented to make what Stovall said appear acceptable’, according to another local resident.

  86. “Dude, you’re arguing for anarchy now. It’s not the same thing.”

    On January 25, 2013, Morningland Dairy in Missouri was raided and over 36 tons of personal property was confiscated by the Missouri State Milk Board. In operation for over 30 years, Morningland Dairy has never received one complaint from a customer or any illness reported as a result of consuming their product.

    link

  87. i like milk and also various cheeses but I only buy the imported ones when we have a fascist food stamper in our white house

    I figure the french and the british and the swiss peoples can keep the monies safe until our failshit little country is responsible enough to be a good custodian of it again, plus I get tasty cheese out of the transaction

  88. Exactly, Spies.

    Others can feel free to drink antifreeze if that’s what they wish. I’ll just tell you it is an ugly way to die.

  89. serr8d, I was guessing meth was the problem. Thanks for hunting down the info.

  90. but I’m torn on the raw milk thing I didn’t know about it could have tuberculosises in it

  91. steveaz, you may wish to familiarize yourself with the process of pasteurization. It has nothing to do with chlorine.

  92. If you want raw milk, buy a goat. No one will stop you from drinking it straight from the teat. You just don’t get to sell it to other people.

    oh protect us nanny state. here we give up our rights to self defense. go away fabian idiot.

  93. “has never received one complaint from a customer”

    “Anecdote” is not the same as “data”.

    Your own “wiki” link said that bovine TB was a big problem before we started pasteurizing milk.

  94. momma what is that man doing to that goat momma what’s that man doing to that goat

    momma

  95. Others can feel free to drink antifreeze if that’s what they wish.

    because unpasteurized milk = ethylene glycol. you got a voice in proggtard land. the stupid is fast and furious.

  96. “oh protect us nanny state.”

    http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/blueridgesanatorium/death.htm

    At one time 24% of the deaths in some U.S. cities were caused by tuberculosis.

    Go fuck yourself.

  97. You are arguing like a leftie.

    I am disappointed, nr.

  98. “Others can feel free to drink antifreeze if that’s what they wish.”

    Right. The antifreeze drinkers don’t infect other people.

  99. Spies,I told him that way upthread.

  100. Just, damn. There’s some crazy f*cks out there

    After how the zionscum pig banksters ripped off millions of homes from families, caused CHAOS in the lives of tens of millions, including little kids, and caused the execution of millions of Pets from displaced families that could not find a rental that would accept Pets, only a TRAITOR would ever walk into another megabank.

    I cannot wait to see them burned to the GD ground the day the war starts here, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of the local managers houses BURNED down also, in every city, town and hamlet in this country. The bankster execs? DEAD. As soon as the New America military captures them, and gives them a 1 minute trial, then tortures them to death on live TV. Have fun zionscum banksters. Enjoy your imminent future.

    I cannot wait for the war to start, so I can fulfill my list.

    This freak, and probably thousands more out there just like him, cause some of the overreactions we see from concerned politicians (and from the left-politicians who welcome their outbursts).

  101. At one time 24% of the deaths in some U.S. cities were caused by tuberculosis.

    see this is what proggtards do. weigh the conversation down to some obscure area that deflects from the original argument.

    “At one time 24% of the deaths in some U.S. cities were caused by tuberculosis.”

    “at one time 100% of deaths happened because peeps lived”

    quit throwing out proggtard arguments about why you want to control people about drinking milk

  102. Right. The 1980′s aids faggots antifreeze drinkers don’t infect other people.

  103. Guys,
    Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security because you think a gub’mint certification process will save you from store-spread diseases.

    Your own immune system is your first-responder, empower it. And you can’t trust stodgy state-systems (wasn’t it a city official of Venice who deliberately infected the city with bubonic plague back in the medievil period? IIRC, he let the city’s whores service sailors from a known, infected ship.). They don’t always do what’s right.

    And it’s not all or none, hippies or Republicans, A or B, nor X-Y-Z, nor any of the other paired strawmen I’ve seen arrayed today either.

    It’s just better to buff up your immune system with occasional raw foods, even if you don’t consume them everyday. Eat greens unwashed right out of the garden, or bite into that crisp winter Macintosh you found unwashed on the ground. If your garden and farm are healthy, they won’t hurt you!

    The idea is, augment the flora in your bowell so that when a dysenteric pathogen enters your alimentary canal, it passes through it with your next meal, and with few mal-effects due to its not being able to gain a competitive toe-hold in the densely-knitted lawn of beneficials already there.

    Ignore your bowell’s normal flora at your Peril, Sirs! Raw foods are your sometimes-Friend!

  104. “weigh the conversation down to some obscure area that deflects from the original argument.”

    Yep. Posting data about actual tuberculosis death rates before pasteurization is a “deflection”.

    Here you go:

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russian-Family-Was-Cut-Off-From-Human-Contact-Unaware-of-World-War-II-188843001.html

    Have fun!

  105. Eating raw food isn’t going to protect you from TB-infected milk, Steve.

    Sorry, it just isn’t.

  106. I live to school the yung’uns: Chlorination is one chemical way to sanitize milk. Pasteurization is a thermal one.

    Notice I said sanitize, not sterilize – ‘cuz neither method kills all bacteria. They only reduce their numbers to “acceptable” levels.

    Which is the grist of this discussion, isn’t it? What’s acceptable and not acceptable may be subjective to interpretation. Some people are too weak for any bacterias. Others handle even raw milk just fine!

    Not sure why some are weaker than others, though, and need the gub’mint to protect them, but others can handle things on their own fine. Leigh?

  107. The only humans who have natural immunity are infants up to the age of 6 months.

  108. Posting data about actual tuberculosis death rates before pasteurization is a “deflection”.

    proggtarded cite. hey lookey siberia 1937. isolated family running from godless obama peeps.

  109. The only humans who have natural immunity are infants up to the age of 6 months

    good allan thank you for your profound insights

  110. It’s a scientific fact.

  111. They’re already gunning for our home-breweries, our local butchers,meats, my friend’s goats-milk, and Jeff’s guns.

    And now they’re coming for Wretchard’s cat!

    Zut Alors!

  112. zionscum pig banksters are largely just misunderstood i think

    I’d much rather have ZPBs on Team America than our useless propaganda slut journalist caste

    buncha useless eaters those ones

  113. It’s a scientific fact.

    no proggtard assertion

  114. The only humans who have natural immunity are infants up to the age of 6 months

    you can’t have immunity if your body hasn’t faced the disease. good allan proggtard.

  115. leigh how much do they pay at media matters?

  116. Look dumbass, babies have vestigal immunity from their mother. By the time they are six months of age, it is gone.

    Stick to what you know and leave the science to scientists.

  117. steveaz, eating unwashed fruits and vegetables is asking for trouble. Have you no wildlife where you live? No songbirds? No rabbits? Or are they trained not to drop droppings where ever they please?

    Unless the fruits and vegetables are grown in a sealed environment, they may carry disease.

  118. I think I’m on team newrouter about the milks

    Don Falls, an inspector for the Milk Board, told the plant manager, “You should be back up and running by early next week.” Obviously, that wasn’t true. As a matter of fact, the very next morning, presumably after he spoke with the FDA, Falls’ entire attitude changed.

    Over the weekend, the FDA leaked a nation wide recall on all of Morningland’s cheese produced in 2010. Not just the two batches that California indicated might be “suspect” for contamination, but their entire year’s production. Most of the cheese implicated as “suspect” by California had already been consumed. No complaints or ill effects were reported by any of the consumers of any of Morningland’s cheese. Nonetheless, the FDA required all of their products to be recalled.

    Very few people realize the FDA has an armed and very military aspect. They showed up at Morningland in camouflage and made a lovely impression on those able to be at the unveiling of the future of food safety “FDA style”.

    The FDA and Milk Board worked hand in hand to ensure that this little cheese plant in the midst of the Missouri Ozarks, that hadn’t made anyone sick in 30 years, would never make another batch of cheese for their loyal customers. Yet the FDA, who admit to killing 100,000 people a year, are allowed to gain ever more control over everything we take into our bodies. So the tally on deaths over the 30 year history of Morningland Dairy versus the FDA is: Morningland “Zero”, FDA “3 Million”…or somewhere near that.

    this is a buncha piggy piggy FDA fascists getting a hardon for economy-raping

    they can’t let the EPA goosesteppers hit all the hot juicy stuff first

    this was not about tuberculosises that’s for sure

  119. Look dumbass, babies have vestigal immunity from their mother. By the time they are six months of age, it is gone.

    Stick to what you know and leave the science to scientists.

    you + science = non sense. have a shot of ethylene glycol on me ms. media matters( also tell david brock his glock ain’t welcome in dc)

  120. I am pro vestigal immunity though

  121. Pregnant women, infants, young children, the elderly and those with compromised immune systems shouldn’t consume raw dairy products. Including raw or fresh cheeses.

    Several pregnant women died from eating a Mexican fresh cheese several years ago that was contaminated with lysteria. The babies died in utero, as well.

    And, I’m done talking about this for now.

  122. yeah but caveat emptor leigh

    that means um

    something in latin

    so there you go

  123. OK, I had a couple minutes to kill. Is this a bit strong, you think?

  124. And, I’m done talking about this for now.

    you proggtards make assertions then like the cowards you are run away.

    link

  125. nr. You’re among friends here. There’s no ‘proggtards’. You want proggtards? Go play in #p2.

  126. Epidemic listeriosis associated with Mexican-style cheese.

    In Los Angeles County, California, 142 cases of human listeriosis were reported from January 1 through August 15, 1985. Ninety-three cases (65.5 percent) occurred in pregnant women or their offspring, and 49 (34.5 percent) in nonpregnant adults. There were 48 deaths: 20 fetuses, 10 neonates, and 18 nonpregnant adults. Of the nonpregnant adults, 98 percent (48 of 49) had a known predisposing condition. Eighty-seven percent (81 of 93) of the maternal/neonatal cases were Hispanic.

    why are pregnant women super-susceptible to contracting listeriosis? Someone should look into that. Maybe they serve this shit at baby showers or something.

  127. I like it, serr8d.

  128. It is common in mishandled and out of date dairy products and lunchmeats, happy.

  129. Eighty-seven percent (81 of 93) of the maternal/neonatal cases were Hispanic.

    Damn. I’m risking massive cultural insensitivity, but I’m thinking lack of cleanliness played a role here.

    Also, 1985. There were no ‘Clorox Wipes’!

  130. We, rightly so, banned the importation of these cheeses serr8d.

    Working in a medical laboratory can keep you up nights at times.

  131. “Others handle even raw milk just fine!”

    Not if it’s infected with tuberculosis they don’t.

  132. Maybe they serve this shit at baby showers or something.

    Maybe the baby showers them with shit and they don’t wash it away? Or the cloth diapers left moldering in the kitchen sink, washed along with the dishes, dried hanging on the light fixture above the kitchen table?

  133. i would hate to dodge dodge dodge bullet after bullet to be done in by tasty cheese dip

    but that might just be vanity on my part

  134. no Mr. serr8d there is a very very strong cheese-specific correlation here

    it’s science!

  135. Also, 1985. There were no ‘Clorox Wipes’!

    so what? the fed gov’t should not be “our” savior. and media matters leigh suxs at science

  136. I recall those TB tests we had to have every year, up until about the 2nd grade or so. Arm-pricked at school, everyone watching to see if your skin reacts with a giant pustulent pimpernel. About the size of a cheese wheel, I’ve heard.

  137. “this is a buncha piggy piggy FDA fascists getting a hardon for economy-raping”

    From what I’m reading FDA (oddly, but there you have it) appears to only regulate raw milk in genuine interstate commerce. Many states have restrictions on it as well, though. Others don’t.

  138. “I recall those TB tests we had to have every year, up until about the 2nd grade or so.”

    People don’t realize just how many died from infectious diseases in the bad old days, and don’t realize just how fast those things can come back if we ever drop our guard.

    It was brutal.

  139. that’s like having a camel right under your nose when you’re in a tent Mr. Spies

    but that’s actually a very fair point

    apparently then the cheese bidness wasn’t viable without selling cheese out of state

    hmmm

    I don’t understand the compulsion to make cheese out of germy milk honestly

    we need home irradiation units

  140. People don’t realize just how many died from infectious diseases in the bad old days, and don’t realize just how fast those things can come back if we ever drop our guard.

    It was brutal.

    hi fascism! go for it media matters drone. all the power to the fed gov’t!!11!!

  141. People don’t realize just how many died from infectious diseases in the bad old days, and don’t realize just how fast those things can come back if we ever drop our guard.

    It was brutal.

    yes the fascists and their “guard”. go for it and “public health” too

  142. Gresham’s law applies to more than currency.

    Lots of crap has the ability to crowd out better things.

  143. Gresham’s law is an economic principle that states: “When a government compulsorily overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation.”[1] It is commonly stated as: “Bad money drives out good”, but is more accurately stated: “Bad money drives out good if their exchange rate is set by law.”

  144. From the same wiki article newrouter didn’t read:

    The M. tuberculosis complex (MTBC) includes four other TB-causing mycobacteria: M. bovis, M. africanum, M. canetti, and M. microti.[24] M. africanum is not widespread, but it is a significant cause of tuberculosis in parts of Africa.[25][26] M. bovis was once a common cause of tuberculosis, but the introduction of pasteurized milk has largely eliminated this as a public health problem in developed countries.

    I wouldn’t care if newrouter and his whole family died painting the walls with their lungs, but TB is fucking contagious. So I decline to expose my self or my loved ones to it so newrouter can indulge in pseudoscientific bullshit about raw milk.

  145. -newrouter: There are certain functions that are best performed by government, which is why we the people grant [enumerate] certain powers to our governments. Basic public health is one of those that was granted to local and state governments and, until the past two decades or so, they have done a good job of it [eg: polio, whooping cough, TB]

    -leigh says January 29, 2013 at 9:09 pm
    You are arguing like a leftie.
    I am disappointed, nr.

    He’s arguing like an Ideologue [trapped in his system of ideas, forced to take them to their logical conclusions because, otherwise, the system collapses] – in this case a Libertarian/Anarchist.

    -When I was a kid in the mid/late-1960′s we had polio scares every summer because of some parents who avoided getting the mandatory [mandated by the town] vaccine. Several kids caught it, a few died, at least one was put in an iron lung. It took a few years, but eventually even the dumbest parents got the message and the number of cases went down to zero.

    -I understand newrouter’s anger at the government. Over the past two decades, public health boards have been taken over by the Left and have – no surprise – started dealing with matters that they shouldn’t be touching. The cause: when such boards were set-up, pressure was put on the politicians to make them independent, above the political fray. Unfortunately, this independence has been exploited by the Left. These boards legislate without having to answer to the people of the community. At the state, county, and local levels, we must take back control of these boards and make them answer to our elected representatives, who we can, in turn, pressure. Or, we can make board of health memberships elected positions.

    -Blake says January 29, 2013 at 8:24 pm
    Bob B., I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask if the crime problem might be due to a large number of convicted felons that have been caught and released? Or, due to prison crowding, let out early? Lax sentencing?

    In the land of Clinton and Hucksterbee, I wouldn’t doubt that all of those are part of the problem, along with the information is seer8d’s comment above at 8:57PM yesterday.

  146. Bob, thanks for sharing the polio story. When I was a little girl (early 60s) my grandparents had a neighbor, a grown man with a family of his own, who had had polio and walked with metal braces and crutches. My SIL has told me about polio scares when she was a girl in the 50s and how the public pools were closed in NYC. Polio is still alive and killing in Africa.

    We take our good health too much for granted.

  147. nr scares me when he drinks. VodkaPundit he’s not.

  148. Leigh,
    Infant immunity is only partly derived from maternal antibodies – some innate immunity is genetic. But of those protective antibodies the mother does impart, the most important ones are relayed through breast-feeding.

    Which, as you know, is the infant’s consumption of a raw-milk product. So sorry, fella. You’re just wrong on this one – and it’s Natural Law that says so, not me.

    BTW, I thought it was cool when, standing in line at the DMV somewhere in late-eighties California, I saw the lady behind me whip-out her left breast and begin to feed a newborn litle girl she had in her arms.

    It was perfectly natural, and didn’t creep me out at all. But some people freak out about it. Fear of approbrium…fashion pressures…scolding, leading to Progressivism, or something.

  149. VodkaPundit he’s not.

    Imdeed. He doesn’t scare me, he’s just exasperating. He’s such a nice guy but can go from zero to asshole in 40 minutes or less.

  150. steve, dude. Stop trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs.

  151. Oh, and pasteurization is performed on beverages to lengthen their shelf-lives. This extends the Use-By date, and makes the drink transport better, both of which are important mostly to folks who move far away from where cows live.

    Back to the cities!

    As to teat-borne pathogens, modern farms swab the teats before attaching the milk-pumps to handle that problem. Smaller operations use a dilute, food-safe cleanser to sanitize the udder, teats and hands to the same effect.

    Pasteurization, like salting tack or canning veggies in brine, is about storage and transport, not food quality and “best” health practices. The bowell health of you and yours, if it figures at all in modern food-processing practices, comes in a distant second.

  152. *sigh*

    Vegetables are not canned in brine. Acid foods (tomatoes, for example) must be pressure canned unless you think you can fight off botulism..

    Tack? Tack is something one uses on horses, eg: saddles, bridels, reins, et al.

    It is spelled ‘bowel’. Normal flora is no defense against aggressive toxins and pathogens.

    Modern food processing, pasteurization and sanitary measures in food handling have saved countless lives. Pasteurization is performed to kill toxins. Read up on cow pox, milk maids and smallpox vaccination and get back to me.

  153. C’mon leigh — are you really going to grant that there’s a distinction to be made between food storage and food quality? I mean, let’s say that I have a bumper crop of cucumbers, and I “can” half of them in brine (which is to say, pickling), and leave the others in dry storage. I get a hankering for cucumbers a few weeks later, which batch do you think is going to be higher-quality?

    Rotten food is low-quality food.

  154. Sure, Squid! Those fuzzy green lemons and oranges in the produce drawer? Extra vitamins, man.

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