January 15, 2013

New Yorkers who own 3 or more guns are now felons

Just like those who commit violent crimes with unregistered weapons — only without the “committed violent crimes” part.  The opposite in fact:  they keep their guns to protect themselves and their families against violent criminals who don’t much seem to care about gun control measures.  Fairness!

But let’s not be too hard on the political class: to run a thriving police state, you need a steady supply of new criminals.  Viewed from that perspective, laws that turn erstwhile law-abiding citizens into criminals with the stroke of a pen make perfect sense!

(h/t Pablo)


update:  as Charles points out, felons aren’t allowed to own guns. Or vote. Or associate with other known felons.  Which means, we’re going to need some shovel ready gulags.

update 2:  Alex Kauffman on Twitter suggests that Owens has misread the law.   I’m off to wrestling practice.  If anyone can clarify while I’m gone, add a note in the comments.



Posted by Jeff G. @ 5:03pm

Comments (121)

  1. Side benefit, felons can’t own guns, associate with other known felons, or vote.

    The awesome is just leaking out.

  2. Cheer up. We may soon see an end to the hideous slaughter of fish: four rods and reels? You don’t need those — one per family should do. Besides, it’s good you learn to share.

  3. Hmm…, why did they pick seven as the allowed number of rounds in a magazine?

  4. I had tacitly figured is was simply that few such things exist. But then I’ve been known to underestimate legislative cunning before.

  5. Geez. Do all these new felons even have a chance to flee the State? Or would attempting to leave been seen as evidence of having committed this new “crime??”

  6. So New York might go from the third largest population to 4th or lower… This might be really good news for Florida.

  7. See the updates.

  8. I think Michigan can benefit from all this.

    First Right to work stuff … now this. Sander Levin is the only one here making noises about gun control, but that’s because he’s stupid.

  9. it’s not a good feeling knowing the only thing what protects people’s rights anymore is the capriciously perverse roberts court

    how third world we’ve become, and so fast

  10. don’t worry we have a wise latina on the roberts court

  11. Here is the law.

    S 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
    A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree when:
    (1) Such person commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon
    in the fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five
    of section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
    (2) Such person possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell,
    firearm silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating
    a machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or
    (3) Such person knowingly possesses a machine-gun, firearm, rifle or
    shotgun which has been defaced for the purpose of concealment or
    prevention of the detection of a crime or misrepresenting the identity
    of such machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun; or
    (5) (i) Such person possesses three or more firearms; or (ii) such
    person possesses a firearm and has been previously convicted of a felony
    or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter within the five years
    immediately preceding the commission of the offense and such possession
    did not take place in the person’s home or place of business; or
    (6) Such person knowingly possesses any disguised gun; or
    (7) Such person possesses an assault weapon; or
    (8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
    Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D felony.

    I think Mr. Owens is correct.

  12. I’m seeing something that says long guns aren’t considered firearms under NY law. That is apparently the basis by which Owens is purportedly wrong. Seems dopey, but then so is NY law.

  13. geoff, I took a quick look at the bill itself, and I think Bob is correct also. The bill also redefines shotguns as “assault” weapons, providing the shotguns accept detachable magazines and have some sort of muzzle compensator/brake or forward handle. Also, semi-auto pistols are “assault” weapons, if the pistol has a detachable magazine and some sort of barrel shroud or forward handle. Seems to me the slide on a semi-auto could easily be considered a “shroud” according to the definition offered.

  14. The NY laws website is down so I can’t confirm.

  15. Why do I always have these little conversations in my head when it comes to these laws?

    Police Chief: “Get the men out on the streets. We’re going to do a sweep and take all of those dangerous assault weapons away before someone gets hurt.”

    Rank and File Officers: “No problem, sir. However, would you mind show us how it’s done? We’re a little rusty on the whole house to house taking away guns thing.”

  16. I see it comes down to the definition of “firearm”.

    3. “Firearm” means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
    one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
    having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
    any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
    modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
    otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
    an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
    barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
    distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
    breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
    overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
    between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
    the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique

    “Firearms” as defined are all illegal weapons except for the ” any pistol or revolver” which would have to have a permit. Non-handguns, non-“assault rifles” which have legal length barrels and over all length are not “firearms”. Unless of course the head of the State Police decides they are “assault” weapons in which case said head can simply declare them banned.

    Stroke of the pen, law of the State.

  17. Here’s a bill that makes repeated references to “firearms, rifles, and shotguns.” so the critique may be right in that respect. Still, 3 handguns makes you a felon.

  18. there’s a whole shitload of that state what’s filled with normal regular people

    I think they’re getting the short end of the civil rights stick

  19. New update:

    Further update: This section was in S1422-2013. What Cuomo signed today was S2230-2013, so this legislation is not effectively law, at least not yet. Whether S1422-2013 is still within the legislature, and precisely what it means, is ambiguous until this trainwreck of rushed legislation is sorted out.

  20. Well, they have to keep those prisons working once they start winding down the War on Drugs.

  21. – The Texas legislature has already stated that if any Fed or other State officials try to enforce any new gun laws in Texas they will be arrested.

    – This could get interesting.

  22. I voted for 2001 Big Space Baby so don’t blame me

  23. Alex Kauffman is saying on Twitter that there was no redefining, Blake.

  24. this is one of those “you have to pass the bill to see what’s in it”

  25. The Austin Mayor Lee Leffingwell who was passed off as a conservative pro business democrat that was right for Texas is talking about some local gun laws. He signed Bloombergs Mayors against guns thing as well. I might be moving to San Marcus soon.

  26. Hmm…, why did they pick seven as the allowed number of rounds in a magazine?

    The magic number held in magazines fitting John Moses Browning’s highest achievement.

    1911: Because pistol whipping someone with plastic won’t get your point across.

  27. My first thought about seven was because that’s what a 1911 has, but it could it really be that simple? Of course a lot of 1911’s allow for more than seven rounds now.

  28. This entire Lefty gun control episode, this reflexive spasmodic overreaction to Sandy Hook, is gonna backfire on them, just watch. You thought the TEA Party was huge? 2014 will now be a bonfire, and we’ll get to throw some deserving bastards on it.

  29. i’ve heard that seven was picked because demonrats talked to the ghost of fdr and he found that worked for the price of gold

  30. the house “leadership” needs primaried

  31. Always bake 7 potatos in case a guest shows up

  32. I’ll have to talk to my BIL about this one. He lives in upstate NY and his daughter is the county Sheriff.

    Arresting your own dad could be problematic.

  33. Cronos …Uranus….Zues..mmmnom mnnoom yom mmm

  34. he always baked 7 potatoes he was a good person

    is what people will say about you after you’re gone, provided you follow through on the potato agenda

  35. Unless you’re Raylan Givens…

  36. If I’m reading that correctly, it’s okay to possess three or more firearms so long as you you haven’t committed criminal possession in the fourth degree, whatever that is.

    What’s the legal definition of possession?

  37. For that matter, what consititutes 4th degree possession? Or 3rd? Or 2nd?

  38. Saturday’s child is full of fries

  39. what consititutes 4th degree possession? Or 3rd? Or 2nd?

    It’s in there, I believe.

    Ernst, that’s the first reason but there are 7 more that could cause it.

  40. remember these laws are only for the lower classes

    us dick gregory types aren’t affected

    plus if you’re a thuggy thuggy corrupt NYPD piece of shit you also get a pass

    so basically the law only affects food stampers

  41. why do i always say dick gregory i mean david gregory

    it must be cause he’s such a dickface

  42. I will not beat off in the drive thru
    Freedom Fries Motherfucker[Toots horn]]

  43. #5(i) is the one under discussion. They all start with “or” not “and”.

    What I can’t find is something under Article 400 which makes an exception for the licensed possession of 3 or more handguns except a place which is hard to make heads or tails of.

    17. Applicability of section. The provisions of article two hundred
    sixty-five of this chapter relating to illegal possession of a firearm,
    shall not apply to an offense which also constitutes a violation of this
    section by a person holding an otherwise valid license under the
    provisions of this section and such offense shall only be punishable as
    a class A misdemeanor pursuant to this section. In addition, the
    provisions of such article two hundred sixty-five of this chapter shall
    not apply to the possession of a firearm in a place not authorized by
    law, by a person who holds an otherwise valid license or possession of a
    firearm by a person within a one year period after the stated expiration
    date of an otherwise valid license which has not been previously
    cancelled or revoked shall only be punishable as a class A misdemeanor
    pursuant to this section.

  44. i keep seeing “machine-gun” in this so call law. where is that defined?

  45. 1. “Machine-gun” means a weapon of any description, irrespective of
    size, by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of
    shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a
    magazine with one continuous pull of the trigger and includes a
    sub-machine gun.

  46. I’m no bakesd potato expert or nuttin
    I would not want to be a pertater spert but… I fin d ..if u
    stab em first
    stab stab stab
    then them evi l potato juices just…pphht-escape
    then u talk to the tater and say…I’,m gonna infuse you
    with a lb of bacon
    a lb of bacon helps the medicine go down
    boy. it does/howdy

  47. it is time for civil disobedience. show up in dc and albany with a functional cardboard and metal “outlaw” magazine singing ” we will overcome some day. some guy says” punch back twice as hard”

  48. Jeff,

    Section 1. Subdivision 22 of section 265.00 of the penal law is
    REPEALED and a new subdivision 22 is added to read as follows:




    EXPLANATION–Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets
    [ ] is old law to be omitted.


    The 3 guns and automatic (see what I did there?) felony may be open to interpretation. (Though, we are talking NY State, so, the law there is rather elastic and should be interpretted in the worst light, not the best) However, from what I read, the legislature removed the original section of the code that defined “assault” weapon and created a new definition.

    Shotguns, if they had certain features, were probably already classified as “assault” weapons. It appears the legislature decided to allow fewer “assault” features before the shotgun becomes an classified as an “assault” weapon. Same goes for the AR platform.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but kinda looks like a redefinition to me.

  49. Okay, I did read it wrong. I thought they were laying out if 1 and (2 or 3 or 4 etc.) then. 4th degree gets bumped up the 3rd degree if the state has previously determined that you’re not a good person.

  50. Crap, I need to read my original comments. Anyway, yeah, shotguns were already classified as assault weapons, I believe. The legislature redefined how many features, not whether or not a shotgun is indeed an assault weapon.

  51. one continuous pull of the trigger

    yea they get rid of it in ny. then on to making it illegal nationally. there is no “compromise” with fascists. civil disobedience it is. 10000s march into dc from va with “functional cardboard ‘david gregory magazines'”. hey nathan arrest us

  52. It’s in there, I believe.

    Yes it is. Thanks.

    I guess the streets of Alphabet City and other gritty neighborhoods will be safe for one and all now that it’s all laid out like that. /s

  53. nr, I think the time for demonstrating is long past. The TEA party was unable to derail Washington and the TEA party has some clout.

    I think we’re down to watching and waiting.

  54. A strangers baked potato that you haven’t buttered is just a friend you haven’t met..yet

  55. if i was doing this march i’d be smashing curly light bulbs too. give them an “environmental clean up mess”

  56. I think we’re down to watching and waiting.

    no. we are the counter culture now. act accordingly. street theatre it is with some “civil rights” songs thrown in for good measure. these clowns want to be “bull conner” i’ll be mlk

  57. I think we’re down to watching and waiting.

    And doing reconaissance.

  58. your twice baked potatos do not impress me but your witty dialog makes me re-evaluate my cooking timetable

  59. leigh, not to mention thinking through options.

  60. pd, your avatar would make any guy re-evaluate his cooking timetable.

  61. not to mention thinking through options.

    start 3d manufacturing of ar ‘david gregory magazines’ with the statement of “support the 2nd amendment” on it and send a 1000 every weekend into dc. give them cloward piven

  62. a half cooked potato and clamp it on to something like
    keys …or..

  63. thinking through options.

    No kidding Blake.

  64. – At some point they’re going to have to do something about fries. You could put an eye out with one of those things.

  65. I think we’re down to watching and waiting.

    quinn “i just saw a movie where the gov’t and military have weapons it is called: “schindlers list””

  66. it would be really fun for peeps to dump plastic/cardboard “david gregory magazines” in dc with “support the 2nd amend” and “please recycle” printed on them.

  67. 1. “Machine-gun” means a weapon of any description, irrespective of
    size, by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of
    shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a
    with one continuous pull of the trigger and includes a
    sub-machine gun.

    A belt-feed exception?

  68. – Apparently some of the Colorado shooting victims are not the least bit confused about who is to blame. It doesn’t seem to be guns in their minds.

  69. Also, discharging magazines are very, very scary in a killy maimy sorta way.

  70. Quinn reads here? I said that the other day.

  71. French fries are oftened capatilized
    French fries are served hot and generaly eaten as an accompiant with lunch or dinner. Frenchy fries are generally salted,and in their simples and most commion formthey are served with a dildo
    quick… form I mafe a bad..sad.. thing

  72. There is a mention of belt-fed machine guns in that piece, too Ernst.

  73. you don’t need the spring thing just march on dc with the “springless david gregory magazine”. available in plastic or paper/cardboard. toss’em at the congress don’t hurt the jerk’s feelings. or deposit them at marion barry’s house

  74. these are the kind of piggy piggy public pension whores what will get to have robust guns what go bang bang bang bang bang bang bang BANG while you are out of bullets and the bears are closing in

  75. Potato for sale

  76. I saw something nasty in the woodshed

  77. If the NY legislature had in mind creating a mockery of law writing, they’ve nearly outdone themselves with this doosey. Time was that State had a view to leading with dignity and foresight. Now? It’s a crumbling aggregation of dread.

  78. “1. “Machine-gun” means a weapon of any description, irrespective of
    size, by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of
    shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a
    magazine with one continuous pull of the trigger and includes a
    sub-machine gun.”

    Okay. That makes a breakaway one shot hunting shotgun a machine gun. Because one trigger pull can (if loaded with buck or dove shot) release multiple shots or bullets.


    Wonder what they mean by “capacity” — an SKS has an integral, non-detachable 10-round magazine. They can be converted to accept AK (I think) magazines. I’d argue that, absent conversion, the gun cannot accept a detachable magazine, any moreso than a Honda Civic can ‘accept’ a turret.

    But I’d argue that only from safety of Pennsylvania, mind you. We all know how lawyers are when it comes to Stupid Language Tricks.

  80. Reading about all those outlawed guns has shown me that we have some deficiancies in the arsenal.

    The one that burned in the tragic barn fire.

  81. Ooh tragic. Was there a chorus? Catharsis? Did you win a goat?

  82. by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, from which a number of shots or bullets may be rapidly or automatically discharged from a magazine with one continuous pull of the trigger

    Isn’t “one” generally considered by mathematicians (and everybody else) to be “a number”?

    Whee! Now, according to the state of NY, I used to own machine guns. Before I accidentally dropped them, Terminator-like, into a crucible of molten iron.

  83. Quite tragic, palaeo. Chorus complete with wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments.

    Wait. That was later. Nevermind.

  84. – America has become a Monty Python skit on an endless loop.

  85. this calls for an “outing” of “machine- gun” owners in new york via “press”

  86. I am trying to figure out the “loaded or unloaded” bit.

  87. The guys who wrote the law are idiots, which isn’t a surprise. I like how they are claiming that no one has lost any rights.

  88. “beemoe says January 15, 2013 at 10:40 pm
    I am trying to figure out the “loaded or unloaded” bit. ”

    They don’t want you legally owning the “neodefined” machine-gun even if you have no ammo or no magazines for it.

  89. This is the all purpose part.


    One man can say any gun is an assault weapon. stroke of the pen.

  90. One man can say any gun is an assault weapon. stroke of the pen.

    throw ar cardboard/plastic magazines in their faces. do the time and eff the politician criminal

  91. I don’t know if the New York State Constitution has any provision for a right to bear arms or not, so I cannot call this unconstitutional. It certainly is totalitarian, and it certainly violates the natural right to self-defense.

    Some of these jokers have a notion that the Federal Constitution only protects sporting arms, which is, of course, stupid. The Federal Constitution, from both direct reading and from what the people who wrote it have written about it, protects a right to own and bear arms that are equivalent to what someone in the military has. The law from 1934 that heavily restricted ownership of automatic weapons, as well as all subsequent gun control measures, are in clear violation of the Constitution and should be struck down. We should all be able to own fully automatic rifles without any special taxation or permission from the government.

  92. at least the revolving door still works

  93. We should all be able to own fully automatic rifles without any special taxation or permission from the government.

    nah throw cardboard like ar 15 magazines at eric holders office or baracky. given them some cloward/piven love

  94. – America has become a Monty Python skit on an endless loop.

    No, I’d be laughing then. :-/

  95. “I had tacitly figured is was simply that few such things exist. ”

    That was my first thought. Ban essentially all existing magazines, force owners to buy new magazines that are subject to registration.

    “A belt-feed exception?”


    How about one of these?


    Canvas belt and water-cooled for maximum retro style points.

  96. What I want to know is if Heller and/or McDonald carry any teeth in the same court that tried them. Or the US Constitution itself.

    Because this mad bullshit is gonna end up there in about six seconds.

  97. Apropos of nothing, but I made Obama, with a smile!

  98. I don’t see any right to bear arms in the New York State Constitution.


  99. How about a right to arm bears? That might solve the problem, as well.

  100. I don’t see any right to bear arms in the New York State Constitution.

    That right was not for NY to decide.

  101. Saw this Althouse quote on Instapundit:

    It occurred to me, after the Sandy Hook murders, that blaming guns is a secular substitute for blaming the devil. People find it too challenging to figure out why a human being would do this terrible thing and they latch on to the idea that the gun made it happen. Suicide presents a similar challenge, and one way to fathom it is to say: It was the gun. Isn’t it like saying the devil made him do it? The gun/the devil is a great go-to answer, freeing you from wracking your brain about the workings of the human mind.

    [emphasis original]

    If you own more than three guns, obviously, you’re in league with the devil. And you probably weigh the same as a duck too!

    What an embarrassing and backward state New York is.

  102. JHoward: Indeed. The 14th amendment would seem to preclude that by any state.

    Also, though not mentioned in the state constitution, the New York Civil Rights Law does apparently provide for RKBA.

    Good rundown here:


  103. From SBPs link:

    New York – 1788

    A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed.

    So how do NY nannies not beclown themselves infringing the right of the people to keep and bear arms?

  104. Further, why are not these people indicted for impeachment?

  105. Because shut up is why.

  106. Obama set to go big on guns: According to sources familiar with the gun-control recommendations President Obama will unveil today at 11:55 am ET, those recommendations will include a universal background check, prohibition of high-capacity magazines, an anti-trafficking law, and a renewal of the assault weapons ban. In addition, he will announce executive actions such as enforcing the laws already on the books (like prosecuting those who fail background checks), as well as restarting federal research of firearm deaths/crimes. And, the sources say, the recommendations also will touch on mental health, school security (though NOT arming guards), and entertainment/video games. Bottom line: Obama is going about as big as he can go, realizing there’s little political downside (at least in the short term). One gun-control advocate tells First Read that the recommendations would be “the most significant reform of our guns laws since MLK and RFK were assassinated” in 1968.

  107. He can “recommend” all he wants, and the House can “recommend” that he go fuck himself.

  108. For any who don’t know GCA-68 was a momumental attack on the 2nd and was dead in committee until the RFK assassination. Within days it was voted out and passed.

  109. All I want is one smartass legislative drone who’ll quietly insert a harmless little clause in these various proposals: “These provisions will take effect sixty days following the recovery of the last firearms provided to Mexican narcotics traffickers by the United States Department of Justice.”

    Just one little clause. Is that so much to ask?

  110. From Wikipedia:

    New York State has adopted constitutions in 1777, 1821, 1846, 1894 and 1938. In the 20th century alone it held three constitutional conventions, the efforts of two of which (1915 and 1967) were rejected by the electorate. The 1938 Convention, like all other state constitutional conventions before, did not actually create a new Constitution, but substantially modified the 1894 Constitution.

    This is one of the problems with state constitutions: that they can be rewritten too easily.

    As for New York State: the ‘right’ to bear arms is merely a law. Those who voted in favor of the new gun ownership restrictions would probably find some provision in the State’s Constitution as justification [probably some safety provision].


  111. The NARWHAL and the whole of the Community Organizing bunch cometh.

    Former White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs on Wednesday said the leftover campaign apparatus from President Barack Obama’s re-election bid is more than capable of overpowering the lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association.

    Gibbs said the president may have to return to campaign mode in order to push for new gun policies, suggesting that Obama should barnstorm the country to promote the proposals that the White House will unveil on Wednesday.

    “He’s got to get out of the White House and travel the country,” Gibbs said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “He’s got to make his case directly to the people.”

    Gibbs said Obama’s ultra-sophisticated campaign operation could serve as a vital asset in making that case, arguing that the grassroots infrastructure that secured the president two terms can trump any effort by the NRA — despite the pro-gun lobby’s claims of a spike in membership since last month’s massacre in Newtown, Conn. Vice President Joe Biden reportedly told House Democrats earlier this week that the White House intended to deploy campaign resources to ramp up support for its gun control proposals.

  112. The ‘leader’-furher, another of Woodrow Wilson’s legacies to the US by the way, who campaigns the people to ‘change’ the law for progress. Time can’t wait, change must be willed, and whose will is more indicative than the leaders?

  113. Return to campaigning mode? I wasn’t aware he had ever left.

  114. Well, charlesaustin, there was that extended intervening period of vacationing-mode.