November 30, 2012

Picking nits with Charles Krauthammer: a messaging plan that CAN work

Darleen points to Krauthammer’s advice to the GOP (mirroring the more sternly-worded advice offered here ever since talk of the “fiscal cliff” got John Boehner’s delicious orange tears of imminent surrender flowing) that Republican leadership merely walk away from what Krauthammer rightly notes is an “insulting” offer from Geithner and the President, who are not only offering no cuts, but want increased taxes and an increase in spending by calling for a new stimulus.  (Making my own prediction not very far off the mark.)

That’s the “balanced approach” Obama has offered, and the one he keeps pushing publicly in his speeches as a “balanced approach” — as if repetition of the phrase, coupled with his reminders that a balanced approach is what the American people say they want, suddenly turns a demonstrably unbalanced approach into a balanced one by mere claim and repetition.

And yes, the GOP needs to walk away in a huff.

But here’s where I disagree with Krauthammer’s assessment.  Reasons Charles:

Yes, for Congressional Democrats it will help them in the future if Republicans absorb the blame because we will have a recession. But Obama is not running again unlike the Congressional Democrats. He’s going to have a recession, 9% unemployment, 2 million more unemployed, and a second term that’s going to be a ruin. That is not a good proposition if you are Barack Obama.

But here’s the thing:  there’s no reason this should help Congressional Democrats — and there’s no reason even to cede that point for a moment — provided the GOP’s refusal to capitulate is coupled to a specific, compelling, and (most importantly) truthful narrative that will shift the onus entirely onto the Democrats.

Best of all, the message is relatively simple and should be an easy sell to the public, especially inasmuch as it draws on years of progressive and mainstream press agitprop fed to the electorate and uses that to its own advantage.

It goes like this:  To go off the “fiscal cliff” would mean that the Bush tax rates expire and sequestration kicks in.  So here are the components of a successful counter-narrative to the one the Dems will offer about GOP obstructionism.  1) The President has already said it is not wise to raise taxes in a recession, and growth and unemployment both suggest that we never really left the last recession.  2) For a decade, the Democrats (and their activist arm in the mainstream media) have told us that the Bush rates were a “tax cut for the wealthy” and Obama has been trying to raise those rates since he took office.  3) Obama is now claiming that, in order to have a balanced approach to budgeting, we must raise tax rates on “millionaires and billionaires” (defined down to $250K or 200K for singles) in order to get them to pay “their fair share.”

It follows, then, that by simply letting the “Bush tax cuts for the wealthy” lapse, Obama will receive what he’s been calling for:  4) a raise in rates “on the rich.”  That is, after selling the public on the idea for over a decade that the Bush tax cuts were intended to benefit the rich, the Dems and the press can hardly turn around now and pretend that allowing the rates to lapse wouldn’t therefore take away those benefits to the rich that they claim was their objection in the first place.

More, by allowing the Bush tax rates to lapse, Obama gets a second thing he wants:  a cut in the military budget.  After all, we don’t use horses and bayonets much anymore, so shrinking the Navy, eg., as he quipped at one debate, isn’t a big deal:  the military wasn’t asking for the increases in budgeting Romney suggested, Obama told us, so sequestration merely cuts what wasn’t needed anyway.  Therefore, any strain on the military during Obama’s second term can be placed directly at his (and the Democrats’) feet.

Further, the lapse in the Bush tax rates takes us back to the Clinton rates — to the salad days of the US, when a President played the sax and got to bang interns, and all was right with the world!  By allowing us to go off the “fiscal cliff,” then, the GOP gives the Democrats what they’ve claimed they’ve wanted for a decade now:  5) a return to the Clinton / Democrat tax rates, with 6) the very “tax cuts” for the middle class he is now pretending to offer, which is really just the status quo Bush rates he will leave in place for certain income brackets.

So.

Let’s put this all together.  The Republican leaderships walks away from the talks.  They do so and then release a statement somewhere along the lines of the following:  “The President has determined that the way forward for our economy is to adopt the policies of the Clinton era.  By allowing the Bush rates, long argued by Democrats as tax cuts for the wealthy, to expire — and we very strenuously disagree with his desire to see those rates expire — the President will receive nearly everything he and his party have been calling for:  a tax increase on the wealthy; a significant cut in military spending by way of sequestration; and a return to the preferred Democrat tax rates of the Clinton years.

“We believe this is a mistake — that in a struggling economy, you don’t raise taxes, something the President himself noted not too long ago.  And in fact, we plan to offer our own budget proposal that provides a tax cut on the middle two categories of wage earners — a %10 decrease in taxes on middle income Americans, which will allow the middle class to keep and spend more of its own money and in turn, we believe, will create jobs, bring people back into the workforce, and therefore provide the desired revenue increase.  And we believe that increase in revenue will be more than the $90 billion raised through the Obama proposal, which is money taken out of the private sector economy on the front end, and hardly makes a dent in what is already  a budget running $1.3 trillion in deficit spending.  Though we have no illusions about how the Democrat-led Senate will deal with such a proposal.

But the alternative offered us — new massive stimulus spending and additional tax hikes on top of all the taxes that will take effect through ObamaCare — is even worse than allowing the Bush rates to expire.   And so by walking away from the negotiations, we are in effect agreeing to a compromise and clearing the ground for the President’s recovery plan.  Far from being obstructionists, we hope the President and his party, whose Congressional members back his plan nearly universally, is correct — that higher tax rates, a drastically-reduced military budget, and a return to Clinton-era revenue generators, are the keys to a stronger economy, more jobs, and robust growth.

“We don’t believe this to be the case.  But elections have consequences, as the President once reminded us.  And we are willing to allow the President and his party to try to pull the country out of the sluggish economy they blame in large part on the policies of his predecessor.”

Such a strategy pins everything to the Democrats going forward.  And what will happen going forward is not negotiable.  The laws of economics can’t be changed by rhetoric and demagoguery. They can only be forestalled with smoke and mirrors, artificially low interest rates and a dollar that is increasingly devalued.

All of which they will own completely and entirely.

 

 

 

 

Posted by Jeff G. @ 12:19pm
182 comments | Trackback

Comments (182)

  1. Flawless Jeff. Well constructed.
    We can only hope and pray someone is listening….

  2. It goes like this: To go off the “fiscal cliff” would mean that the Bush tax rates expire and sequestration kicks in.

    That would be the Bush tax cuts that Democrats have been railing against for a decade, yes? Those awful horrible tax cuts that are the source of the vast majority of our current woes, yes?

  3. But they can’t just release a statement. They have to “barnstorm” the country with their message.

    To “release a statement” is to fart into the wind with today’s media.

  4. I like it. Particularly since our only real piece of leverage is the debt ceiling –in a town where not spending more money year over year is considered a “cut.”

  5. This does make good sense. But what then of the debt ceiling that lurks around the corner?

  6. I love this post

  7. To which Obama responds, “See this pen? I’m ready to sign a tax cut for the middle class, restore domestic programs, and restore funding to the military which contains the greatest men and women and gays on earth. But I can’t do all that for you because the Republicans are holding all that hostage unless they get huge tax cuts for the top 1%”.

  8. The flaw in the design, Jeff is that it require the Republicans to appear on the Sunday talk shows and reply “that’s bullshit and you know it” to the predictably inevitable wailings and lamentations from Democrat and media talking heads about irresponsibly raising taxes on the middle class and cutting spending draconianly.

    Who amongst this crop of eunuchs has the balls for that?

  9. To which Republicans reply, “what tax cuts?”

  10. Restoring the Bush tax cuts on all income less than $200,000/$250,000.

    Are you watching how Obama is framing this. “This is a tax cut for 100% of tax payers. Even the top 1% are getting a tax cut on their first 250k of income. But that’s not enough! They want more!”

  11. what then of the debt ceiling

    Hopefully it stays in place to force some kind of spending discipline.

    I wouldn’t bet on it though.

  12. The so-called “tax cuts for the rich” also included a new 10% bracket for incomes under $33K. It goes away when the Bush tax cuts expire and those taxpayers, including me, get bumped up to 15%. It may not sound like much to most of you, but for those of us just barely hanging on the last 4 years, a 50% tax increase is a big deal, especially on top of the Obamacare garbage.

  13. So now you’re telling us Obama doesn’t want to tax “the rich?”

    Or did you just admit all the class warfare rhetoric of the last twelve years is bullshit?

    (Not coincidentially, one of the points of the post).

  14. So slippery admits that Obama is holding the middle class hostage until he gets to stick it to the rich (those who aren’t his cronies, at any rate)?

  15. Yes, Ernst. I realize it takes consistent messaging and that the current Gop leadership doesn’t have the balls. But that’s beside the point. Which is that it can be done.

  16. The so-called “tax cuts for the rich” also included a new 10% bracket for incomes under $33K. It goes away when the Bush tax cuts expire and those taxpayers, including me, get bumped up to 15%. It may not sound like much to most of you, but for those of us just barely hanging on the last 4 years, a 50% tax increase is a big deal, especially on top of the Obamacare garbage.

    So Spiney, if you got your old tax rate back, but taxes on income over $250k were going to go up as part of the deal, would you take it?

    So now you’re telling us Obama doesn’t want to tax “the rich?”

    So you don’t even understand the basics of the Obama proposal?

  17. When sloppy say framing, it means lying.

  18. To which Obama responds, “See this pen? I’m ready to sign a tax cut for the middle class, restore domestic programs, and restore funding to the military which contains the greatest men and women and gays on earth. But I can’t do all that for you because the Republicans are holding all that hostage unless they get huge tax cuts for the top 1%”

    Not surprisingly, you didn’t read the post closely enough.

    The rates for the middle class won’t be cut. They remain status quo — the Bush rates. Which is why I suggested the GOP pass an ACTUAL tax reduction on the middle class and keep the rest of the Bush rates the same. They can also in that budget fully fund the military.

    Ball back in O’s court. Remember: the Bush tax cuts were for the wealthy. So if they expire, it only (we’ve been told) harms the wealthy. The other rates would be the same whether we accept Obama’s offer or not. He isn’t cutting rates for the middle class. He’s keeping them where they are.

    By Obama and the Democrats’ very own class-warfare framing over the past 12 years, they will be getting everything they wanted by allowing the Bush rates to expire. All the GOP needs do is point that out repeatedly. It is Obama who, having been given everything the Dems said they needed with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, still want more.

    Of course, the upside for us is that letting the Bush rates expire will put the lie to the last 12 years of class warfare rhetoric. Because everyone gets hit once certain deductions and tax credits go away.

    Whoops!

    Own it, Obama!

  19. So you don’t even understand the basics of the Obama proposal

    Yes. You and he hate millionaires and billionaires, and included in that group are people that make over 200k. And you think you can solve a multi-trillion dollar problem with a few billion dollars because of your envy.

  20. And just wait for all of the ObamaCare taxes in 2014.

  21. …if you got your old tax rate back, but taxes on income over $250k were going to go up as part of the deal, would you take it?

    When was the last time a poor man offered you a job, kid?

    In other words, no. It would harm my future income potential.

  22. As long as we’re picking nits and talking about messaging, can we agree to shoot the descriptor “Bush’s tax rates” in the head?

    They are not “Bush’s” tax rates. They are the United States’ tax rates, and have been for a decade. The Dems want to frame it as “letting Bush’s rates expire,” because it focus-groups so much better than “we’re raising taxes.” Don’t let them get away with it any longer.

  23. When was the last time a poor man offered you a job, kid?

    Don’t you mean, “When was the last time anybody offered you a job?”

    His uncle the numbers-runner doesn’t count.

  24. I, for one, would rather have “the rich” investing in profit-making enterprises that create jobs and raise the standard of living for everybody. Slippy would prefer that they hide their money in economically-inefficient tax shelters, where they don’t do much to help the economy at all.

    Slippy wants to cripple business investment because it will create jobs. Really. Just look at all the jobs his policies have created over the last four years!

  25. Yeah, McGehee, I forgot that’s why he’s had so much time to troll this forum.

  26. Squid,

    I, for one, would rather have “the rich” investing in profit-making enterprises that create jobs and raise the standard of living for everybody.

    Exactly. I’m self-employed and the majority of my clients are in the $250K+ bracket. The more they invest in profit-making enterprises, the more work I get. I’d love to be back in a higher tax bracket because I earned more to get there (and therefore, could afford to pay those extra taxes).

  27. Squid —

    In this instance I think “Bush tax rates” works in our favor. They’ve been demonized. Get rid of the vile evil things that just aided the wealthy. It’s what the Dems want. Take us back to the Clinton rates. All will be super!

    Until people realize they were lied to. That they were far better off under the Bush rates. Further, remind them that you want to cut middle class rates, not just allow them to stay the same, which is what in Obamaspeak comes to count as a cut: his not allowing them to go up. His choice.

    Which is what will happen if we have the stones to ride this out. Which of course we don’t.

  28. Such a strategy pins everything to the Democrats going forward. And what will happen going forward is not negotiable. The laws of economics can’t be changed by rhetoric and demagoguery. They can only be forestalled with smoke and mirrors, artificially low interest rates and a dollar that is increasingly devalued.

    All of which they will own completely and entirely.

    That’s the “Let IT BURN!” strategy, correct?

    I’d hate to see that.

    I wish the House would go Newt on their ass. Grow a spine, and convey a willingness to shut down government if a responsible budget isn’t presented for vote by March 31st 2013.

    For the media, talk of nothing but the evils of class warfare. Conservatives don’t see Americans as class dwellers. The “middle class” is nothing but average income group, a statistic.

    Real Americans (free enterprise, capitalist running dogs) aspire to rise above average, Progressives insist we all need to be and STAY average.

    I know…

    I predict the RNC will arrive at the worse possible course of action and pursue it vigorously.

  29. Yeah, I agree with Ernest.

    I mean, I’d like to try and believe that the GOP can finally go on the Sunday shows and go, “You all are a f******* joke and you know it,” because this is their best strategy. But I can’t force myself to believe they’re not idiots any more.

    I let my friends hate me for my beliefs, but they’re terrified Chris Matthews will yell at them. The chance for respect is gone.

  30. That’s the “Let IT BURN!” strategy, correct?

    Not really, Lee, no. The GOP House should pass its own budget proposal, including tax cuts — real ones — for the middle class. Tax that tool away from Obama. Only problem is, you know that’d be dead in the House.

    So the best thing to do is not raise rates significantly on “the rich” while agreeing to new stimulus. It’s to allow the Bush rates to expire and let the cuts in spending kick in. In only one of those scenarios are we getting cuts in spending. And when the tax hikes stifle the economy even further, it’s all on the Democrats, because the GOP will have offered middle class tax cuts and been rebuked, while Obama is only offering at best the status quo for the middle class.

    Remember, this deal has already been made and kicks in automatically if nothing is done to rework it. I suggest that this is a strategic way to rework it and take away Obama’s entire tool box of extortion.

    After that, I’d start pushing for a flat or fair tax. What could be more “fair”? Why are Obama and the Dems against a simplified “fair” tax code that requires the rich to pay more (because they make more) and ensures that “everybody has skin in the game.”

    It’s a combined strategy that usurps the left’s rhetoric and uses it against them. And it could be a game changer, with the right people advocating for it.

  31. It’s that “tax hikes stifle the economy even further” part that hurts, where ever the blame lands.

    It’s coming, regardless. We got a commie Keynesian government, and it’s going to end badly.

  32. As I wrote over on Facebook the “fiscal cliff” is a MacGuffin to distract everyone from the real problem of runaway entitlement spending which will continue unabated whether we go over the fiscal cliff or if there is some grand bargain to avoid it.

    But with repect to a fiscal cliff, why would Obama and the Democrats bargain in good faith? They believe they benefit if we go over it since 1) taxes go up without having to be seen actually increasing taxes, 2) defense gets cut considerably without having to be seen as actually cutting defense, and 3) here’s the best part — the Republicans get blamed for anything and everything. And if the Republicans feel that this is untenable, their only option is to give in to whatever Obama and the congressional Democrats want in the false and futile hope that they will avoid being blamed.

    Jeff wrote: “That is, after selling the public on the idea for over a decade that the Bush tax cuts were intended to benefit the rich, the Dems and the press can hardly turn around now and pretend that allowing the rates to lapse wouldn’t therefore take away those benefits to the rich that they claim was their objection in the first place.” Of course they can, they will, and they will get away with it.

  33. The rates for the middle class won’t be cut. They remain status quo — the Bush rates.

    I think we’re saying the same thing. It’s a matter of timing. If you pass it now, then you’re just keeping the status quo. If they expire, then you need to pass a tax cut to put them back to Bush era.

    Which is why I suggested the GOP pass an ACTUAL tax reduction on the middle class and keep the rest of the Bush rates the same.

    Keeping “the rest of the Bush rates the same” isn’t going to happen. Obama insists that Bush rates for high income earners must expire or be replaced with something that raises rates from where they are now.

    Ball back in O’s court. Remember: the Bush tax cuts were for the wealthy. So if they expire, it only (we’ve been told) harms the wealthy.

    You’re trying to create a new narrative where Obama has supposedly said that Bush only cut taxes for the rich, and letting them expire would only harm the rich. The problem is, he never said that, and everyone knows that the Bush tax cuts were across the board. Everyone knows that if they expire, taxes go up for everyone.

    Hence, Obama looks like he’s trying to keep the Bush rates in place for the middle class but let them expire for the rich. Republicans are being portrayed as saying, “If we can keep the Bush tax cuts for the rich, we’re gonna make sure everyone gets screwed!”

    By Obama and the Democrats’ very own class-warfare framing over the past 12 years, they will be getting everything they wanted by allowing the Bush rates to expire.

    More of your new narrative. Obama has said that it will be bad for the middle class if the Bush middle class tax rates expire. Obama never said he wanted a tax increase on the middle class, and that’s what will happen if all the Bush cuts expire. Everyone knows this.

    It is Obama who, having been given everything the Dems said they needed with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy

    “Expiration of the Bush tax cuts” does not equal “Expiration of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy”.

    In other news:

    They are not “Bush’s” tax rates. They are the United States’ tax rates, and have been for a decade. The Dems want to frame it as “letting Bush’s rates expire,” because it focus-groups so much better than “we’re raising taxes.” Don’t let them get away with it any longer.

    Obamacare?

  34. Oops.

    “If we can’t keep the Bush tax cuts for the rich, we’re gonna make sure everyone gets screwed!”

  35. Also, for the umpteenth time, the whole definition of “rich” is grossly wrong. What makes you rich is having a lot more assets than liabilities, not how much income you have this year. One of the virtues of being rich is you don’t need to make a dime this year in income and you will be just fine. I don’t think that’s true for the majority of people Obama and the Democrats want to tax as the “rich.”

  36. Sorry, I don’t get it.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great argument. Sound, logical, factual, truthful.

    The problem I’m having is determining when that began to matter.

    “Such a strategy pins everything to the Democrats going forward. “

    Uh, when was the last time anything was successfully “pinned” to the Democrats?

    “The laws of economics can’t be changed by rhetoric and demagoguery.”

    No, but elections can be. That, … and voter fraud … but I digress.

    “They can only be forestalled with smoke and mirrors,”

    No, smoke and mirrors don’t do anything to the laws of economics. Even if certain economic consequences are forestalled, the “laws” are still there. What smoke and mirors do do is convince people (stupid, ignorant people) that there are no economic consequences, and that economic “laws” are exactly the opposite of what they actually are.

    “All of which they will own completely and entirely.”

    Really? According to whom? You? Me? So what?

    Of those things that can be determined by federal government policy, more or less everything negative that has happened in, or to, this country for 220+ years can be pinned to “Democrats”, statists, leftists, progressives, or whatever name one wishes to give to those whose ideology is in opposition to the Constitution and Founding Principles. Has it stopped them from implementing insane, anti-American policies, laws, and regulations? Has it stopped them from getting elected? Has “pinning it on them” ever prevented them from gathering less than 30% (or, more recently, 45%) of the electorate to their side?

    “(p)rovided the GOP’s refusal to capitulate is coupled to a specific, compelling, … truthful narrative that will shift the onus entirely onto the Democrats.”

    When have they gotten their narrative — unfiltered — to the public? Did it work?
    When did specificity or (good God, son) truthfulness start mattering?
    “Compelling”? Compelling to whom?

    Best of all, the message … should be an easy sell to the public.”

    How’s that, again? When has a Republican message been both sane & sensible AND been sold successfully to the public? Was this recently?

    Does it matter? That is, is the public buying?

    For this pitch to “work” at least four things must happen:
    1. Republicans (that is, the leadership) have to agree with, and make, the pitch;
    2. Some portion of the public which currently either doesn’t vote, or votes Democrat must get this message;
    3. That same portion must grasp it;
    4. That same portion must believe, accept, and be persuaded by it.

    Personally, I don’t think any one of the four is likely.

    Abe Lincoln once said “Public Sentiment is everything. With it, nothing can fail. Without it nothing can succeed.”

    ‘Somebody’ has a stranglehold on Public Sentiment in this country; and it’s not you, and that ‘somebody’ it’s not me, and it’s not Charles Krauthammer, and it sure as Hell isn’t the Republicans.

    Besides which (and maybe more importantly), when half the “Public” has been brainwashed into semi-retardation, what can their “Sentiment” possibly be, other than brainwashed and semi-retarded?

    How do you convince someone of something that is factual, logical, and true if you don’t speak their language, and they can’t understand yours?

    Oh, and they’re deaf.

    And you’re mute.

  37. - But they won’t ‘own it’. Slippy and his cult have raised responsibility avoidence to an art form.

    – They’ll still be blaming Bush even when hes 6 or 7 years out of office.

    – It’a what they do. Ita who they are.

  38. The problem is, he never said that, and everyone knows that the Bush tax cuts were across the board. Everyone knows that if they expire, taxes go up for everyone.

    In reality, yes, that is the truth. But the democrats have framed the Bush tax cuts as a tax cut for the rich for the last 12 years. “Everyone” does not know that the Bush tax cuts were across the board; the president campaigned on this very issue (among other class-envy tricks).

  39. it require[s] the Republicans to appear on the Sunday talk shows and reply “that’s bullshit and you know it” to the predictably inevitable wailings and lamentations from Democrat and media talking heads about irresponsibly raising taxes on the middle class and cutting spending draconianly.

    This does not change the argument for, if we can bring ourselves to believe it, a rhetoric reversal on the national scale. This is a spectacular opportunity to regain a bit of realism. This is the one Very Big Deal Obama could not have fended off. I bet he wishes he was at his estate in Hawaii.

    But there is another component to this and I’ve mentioned it here for a few days. Whichever Party ends up owning the impact to programs is the same Party that ends up owning the impact to markets. Let’s review.

    The dollar is artificial. The dollar is manipulated not as a secondary function of a preexisting, whole, independent market, but as the determinant of what that market shall do. Think of the dollar as a very large lever moving everything around with the market makers on the long end and you and I on the short end. Even news about the Euro has enormous consequence. That’s news about a failing crosslinked foreign paper currency.

    Fact: The 13k pt DOW is the result of approximately half its value being created on dollar policy — think Stimulus and permanent QE — together with political rhetoric.

    Back to the Sunday talk shows. The DOW is in a slight up market right now but indices are mixed — semi and bank funds and the dollar index are stagnant and in opposition to one another and the overall market cannot have that. Nonetheless, this is considered a bull market, short-lived as it’s been.

    Once Boehner goes nuclear on the White House, say in two days, the next market opening portends trouble. And given that the artificial market is on its last legs per QE Infinity and this horrible relationship between the dollar and growth — they are inverses of one another — when the market next goes wrong there will be no more tools at Bernanke’s or Geithner’s disposal. The market will begin to sink at some point fairly soon on, unrecoverably.

    It will at some point, failing yet another artificial injection of socialist debt-spending or even more QE or both, begin to seek its natural, pre-fake money level.

    And who will own that?

    when was the last time anything was successfully “pinned” to the Democrats?

    Exactly, but this may be the exception to the rule, Yuri. If Jeff’s right on the rhetoric of the fiscal cliff failing, then more of the left’s house of cards may implode.

    My guess is that if fiscal cliff is unresolved, per Jeff, it can be hung on Obama just possibly followed by what must soon be bad market news. In other words, if the nation can see that the issue is bad standing entitlement policy and runaway spending and not the Republican refusal to see it as such, then the market’s wreckage may also strike a just-wise-enough electorate the same way. They may begin to see the nature of bad money, bad policy, centralism, and the markets that define their economic lives.

    The risk is enormous, far larger than the Press is admitting (or even knows) because the Press has zero view of how the market interfaces with fiat money and how it interfaces with federal policy. But if fiscal cliff falls on the Democrats the entire game may be up. The market collapses, banks short and take home vast sums, capital is destroyed, the blood of money runs in the streets, the rest of us suffer worse than we ever thought we would, and some sort of reform comes, probably amidst much, much pain. I wouldn’t think any of this won’t call for another round of Press hit-squadding or another round of “emergency spending” but the system will have finally broken own its back.

    On the other hand, as I alluded before, if the Republicans feel they’ll inherit this thing, then they just became extinct. Then they and we will begin to more fully realize that their relationship to the cold hard facts are just as impossibly entangled in this bizarre inverse progressive reality as the entirety of all of our monetary and fiscal systems are. As Jeff’s also been noting, up is down and left is right. It is the same in markets, per the above. Rhetoric and economic reality are siameesed together in this perverse anti-reality.

    We may be about to be dealing with our collective ability re-recognize the truth of some colossally large architectures. A dawn execution has a remarkable ability to focus the mind.

  40. Yuri —

    Your argument essentially boils down to “the GOP can’t do this because they can’t change public sentiment and get their message out, and besides, nothing will stick to the Democrats.” I don’t happen to believe that. I believe that this current leadership is ill-equipped, but that’s because they live in the DC bubble. Reagan managed it. There are ways.

    It takes coordination and going around the mainstream press oftentimes, and then when given the chance on the Sunday shows to make the case consistently and forcefully.

    Likelihood of success should never preclude us from trying. I’m not arguing that this will work. I’m arguing that it could. But you won’t know if you don’t try — and there’s really not a lot of options here.

    If we want pubic perception on our side, which many in the GOP do, we may as well just bend over and take whatever Obama tells us to take.

  41. My guess is that if fiscal cliff is unresolved, per Jeff, it can be hung on Obama

    So far, polls show that the public thinks it will be the Republican’s fault. So you have some reframing work cut out for you.

  42. That’s the “Let IT BURN!” strategy, correct?

    I’d hate to see that.

    Save for the dollar’s remaining strength as a reserve currency in this fantastic global chess match of fiat currencies and literally incalculable debt, things are much worse than the man on the street thinks.

  43. Slurpy is happy that the MFM will carry water for them, truth be damned.

  44. Your argument essentially boils down to “the GOP can’t do this because they can’t change public sentiment and get their message out, and besides, nothing will stick to the Democrats.” I don’t happen to believe that. I believe that this current leadership is ill-equipped, but that’s because they live in the DC bubble. Reagan managed it. There are ways.

    Jeff, in the technical sense this isn’t Reagan’s era. Reagan was dealing with overspending and the neo-Socialist State. Today we’re dealing with all tools used to inject heroin money into the matured system failing. This is the asymptotic function that Reagan-era spending resteering only took an early part of.

    But I too do not believe the left will necessarily hold the narrative. Should they hold it, of course, then the Republicans are indeed obsolete, as I’ve been saying. There’s a continuity between their losing relationship with inverted national rhetoric to date and their equally losing relationship with inverted economics.

    What comes next is more a test of national will to regain reason during crisis than of the mendacious, evil Press’s ability to continue to publish lies and scapegoat an already kneecapped, facile, losing political Party.

  45. Keeping “the rest of the Bush rates the same” isn’t going to happen. Obama insists that Bush rates for high income earners must expire or be replaced with something that raises rates from where they are now.

    Sucks for him. Let the rates expire. There, you have your tax increase on “the wealthy”. And you get your Clinton-era rates back. Plus military cuts. It’s like a Dem dream list!

    Let the Dems explain how letting “Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy” expire somehow effects the middle class. Oh, you mean it raises middle class rates, too, and so was never a tax on the wealthy, but rather an across the board cut? You mean, the Dems have been lying? And they are willing to raise everyone’s rates for money pulled from the private sector that will fund the government for a few weeks? — and will barely put a dent in deficit spending?

    That seems rather imprudent.

  46. Of course they can, they will, and they will get away with it.

    Okay. Then I take everything I’ve said against Boehner back. We need to surrender. Because there’s really no way ever to beat back the leftist institutions or even challenge their narratives.

    It’s like fate.

    So let’s all quit. Together. It’ll be liberating!

  47. The modern GOP is used to “Our playbook isn’t working, what should we do Democrats?”

    But I think this site has consistently proven that intelligence, humor, and, dare I say, coolness still exists for our side and principles. We just have to get past the “I don’t want to say anything, because my daughter is up for Yale next year,” bullshit one-size-fits-all society we’ve become.

  48. Slippy seems to think we would regret the demise of the Republican Party.

  49. - Shorter approach. I want Bumblefuck to plsy his hsnd out so the Left has ample opportunity to fail utterly and completely, and we can put Progressivism back in the dust bin for a good long time.

    – The only argument that wins against cynical self interest is unavoidable widespread hardship.

    – It may take awhile, and a lot of harm to society, but eventually reality will trump rhetoric.

  50. As I see it, the choices are walk away or roll over in the hopes of giving Obama and the Democrats enough rope to hang themselves with.

    The risk of the latter strategy is that it might not be a metaphorical hanging, in which case you have to wonder how discriminate the lynch mobs are going to be.

  51. The problem is, he never said that, and everyone knows that the Bush tax cuts were across the board. Everyone knows that if they expire, taxes go up for everyone.

    No, that’s what the Dems have been saying for 12 years. And that’s the point. They’ll have to pivot on a dime and admit those low rates were already benefiting the middle class. Begging the question, why let them expire? To drain $90 billion from the private sector’s job producers while you’re still running a yearly $1.3 TRILLION deficit?

  52. I’m not sure I have to wonder, but I can see how David Gregory might Ernst.

  53. I was just using Reagan as an example to show it can be done.

  54. Did I miss where slippery/slimy either apologized for calling Jeff a racist or substantiated the claim?

  55. So far, polls show that the public thinks it will be the Republican’s fault. So you have some reframing work cut out for you.

    – Yes, no, and so what. The system is going to crash because its going to be treated like a big fat ATM machine by the electoraye who have been suckered, and nothings going to stop that.

    – It doesn’t matter who gets blamed over the short haul. thats just a way for the venters to vent.

    – It will take care of itself, and in the aftermath there will be a sudden rush to common sense.

  56. No, that’s what the Dems have been saying for 12 years.

    You might want to validate that assumption, because I don’t remember them ever indicating that the Bush tax cuts were only tax cuts for the wealthy.

  57. So far, polls show that the public thinks it will be the Republican’s fault. So you have some reframing work cut out for you.

    Nice thing about our side is we don’t mind a little hard work.

    And I’ve provided the reframing. So long as we shrug our shoulders, stick to it, and say this is what Obama and the Dems always wanted — higher taxes on the wealthy, cuts in defense spending, Clinton-era rates for “revenue” generation — and now they have it. You want to blame that on Bush, too? Fine. But we can’t be expected to take such criticism to heart. Nope. This is your plan and your results. You got what you wished for. Own it.

  58. Jeff, I don’t think you have to take anything back, and damned if I’m surrendering. As Capt. Mal Reynolds said, “I may be on the losing side, not convinced it was the wrong one.” As Capt. Mal Reynolds also said, “I aim to misbehave.” And, “I mean to survive.”

    The Manichean perspective, ironic or not, isn’t fitting, IMHO.

  59. I don’t remember them ever indicating that the Bush tax cuts were only tax cuts for the wealthy.

    I don’t remember them ever not tying the Bush tax cuts to their covetous, infantile national policy whims.

    Which when you add force of law and pass enormous shit against public approval becomes theft.

  60. You might want to validate that assumption, because I don’t remember them ever indicating that the Bush tax cuts were only tax cuts for the wealthy.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    You’re joking, right?

  61. - Actually, the best thing that could happen at this point is if Congress shut down for the next four years.

  62. Something not far from that may in effect occur anyway, bbh.

  63. Jeff asks (rhetorically, I assume):

    You’re joking, right?

    Since it is slipperyslimy we’re talking about here, I’m going with, “making yet another claim with absolutely no basis in fact.”

  64. I think a major component of our disconnect with the new guy is that we’re primarily interested in reforming the Republicans into a classically liberal (which is to say, conservative) party, and in restoring the Republic to a healthy balance that respects free enterprise and state sovereignty.

    Slippy, on the other hand, is focused on winning the next election, and consolidating as much power as possible inside the Beltway, and to hell with the broader long-term consequences.

    Little wonder that neither side makes sense to the other.

  65. So far, polls show that the public thinks it will be the Republican’s fault.

    Polls about events that haven’t happened, that do not consider things like laughable Dem proposals are worth their weight in pixels. Sell balanced approach as 1,600,000,000,000 in new taxes with unspecified cuts in the future.

  66. Slippery slope wants to rework the narrative they’ve been telling us for years.

    Good luck with that.

  67. “So far, polls show that the public thinks it will be the Republican’s fault. So you have some reframing work cut out for you.”

    I ain’t skerred. What now? You skerred? You ready to pay those taxes?

  68. Isn’t one of the liberating things about losing an election is that you should have the ability to do what you want to do? Who cares if the republicans get the blame? They will be blamed regardless, right?

  69. Jeff,
    I don’t say it’s impossible. Nor do I say the Republicans shouldn’t try it. That should be a matter of course. It’s their job, after all.

    Maybe we differ slightly on it’s likelihood of success; but absolutely this argument should be made — or attempted to be made.

    The point of my comment was only this:
    If I ask what the Republican strategy should be, and the response is “They should make a factual, logical, and truthfull argument; and then get their message out,”; my reaction is not to say “Brilliant! Why didn’t I think of that?”.

    I wouldn’t even have commented if not for other commenters reacting in just that way.

    It’s a fine argument, but the post simply glosses over the problems involved in (a) getting the message out; (b) having it understood and agreed with; (c) having enough control over “public sentiment” and public perception to “pin” anything on Obama or democrats, and; (d) whether (given the attention span and memory of the electorate) any of this matters in terms of elections, government policy over the next 4 to 6 years, actual effects on your wallet and the economy generally, and whether winning this battle has any effect on winning the war.

    Paragraph after paragraph, the post brushes past these problems as if they don’t exist.

    Should the Republicans do smart things, or at least try? Yuh-huh.

    Do I expect sudden success in their attempt to point out the truth that they have been — or ought to have been — pointing out for the last 4 years?

    E.g., “(A)fter selling the public on the idea for over a decade that the Bush tax cuts were intended to benefit the rich, the Dems and the press can hardly turn around now and pretend that allowing the rates to lapse wouldn’t therefore take away those benefits to the rich that they claim was their objection in the first place.”

    Really?

    “the Dems and the press can hardly turn around now and pretend that ….”

    Oh, pardon me, but it seems that that’s exactly what they’ve been doing for the last quarter century or more. They do o.k. with it. Regardless of what comes after the elipses.

    I mean, I didn’t write that. “the Dems and the press can hardly …”

    As either a conclusion, or a premise, or an assumption, or a belief, or a white-knuckled hope against hope, that’s just dumb. It is counter to the reality that is now recent history.

    That’s what I mean that the practical problems with “getting the mesage out” were just glossed over. Like it’s easy as pie to get the message out and convince people, all that’s been lacking is a factual, logical and truthful message to put out there.

    The argument IS there. It has ALWAYS been there. It has been MADE. OVER and OVER and OVER again.

    Does the low likelihood of success in “getting the message out” mean it shouldn’t be attempted? Barring a better alternative course of action, no.

    Does its PRIOR failure to persuade the majority of the electorate mean that sound, factual, truthful arguments shouldn’t keep being made? No, they should be made to the last breath.

    Am I sold on the brilliance of (or even the relevance of endorsing) “telling the truth and getting the message out” as a start-to-finish strategy for political success? Not hardly.

    The problem is not what is contained in the message. It never has been.

    THE problem is the fact that (a) the message isn’t gotten out AND, more importantly; (b) even when it is “The People” are unable to grasp it as both sensible and true. In fact, “The People” have rejected truth, fact, logic and good sense AGAIN and AGAIN. (the last time quite recently, IIRC)

    Misidentification of the problem doesn’t help solving it.

    Remember Einstein’s definition of insanity.

    Well, … the post actually got me fired up, so I’m going to go get something to eat now.

  70. I don’t remember them [i.e. the Democrats] ever indicating that the Bush tax cuts were only tax cuts for the wealthy.

    The fact of your adolescence is by now well established.

  71. “The fact of your adolescence is by now well established.”

    Or capacity for code word induced amnesia.

  72. The more you forget, the less dissonance in your cognitives.

  73. Yuri —

    It’s not so much that people have rejected those things. It’s that they are being indoctrinated in such a way that those things aren’t being sufficiently taught, or else demonized.

    I can’t, in ever post, account for everything. My history of calling the right out for its fecklessness is part of the implied context of the post. The fact that we’ve been failing doesn’t mean we need continue to do so, and — as I’m not sure how long you’ve been reading here — I’ll just say that I’ve dealt with the structural argument for changing the paradigm and re-righting the playing field tilt for the entire history of this site.

    My arguments tend to deal with the nature and function of language and hermeneutics. If you are relatively new to the site, you can find some of those pieces on the sidebar under greatest hits.

  74. I think a major component of our disconnect with the new guy is that we’re primarily interested in reforming the Republicans into a classically liberal (which is to say, conservative) party, and in restoring the Republic to a healthy balance that respects free enterprise and state sovereignty.

    Slippy, on the other hand, is focused on winning the next election, and consolidating as much power as possible inside the Beltway, and to hell with the broader long-term consequences.

    It’s because your classically liberal America would be a failshit country that I’m focused on winning the next election.

    Since it is slipperyslimy we’re talking about here, I’m going with, “making yet another claim with absolutely no basis in fact.”

    You’re the one that needs to convince people that they don’t know that Bush cut their middle class taxes, and that they don’t know that if Congress does nothing their taxes are going to go up.

    I need only bank on the fact that the 24 hour fiscal cliff news cycle has already informed people that if congress does nothing, their taxes go up. But as I always recommend here, Go For IT!

  75. “It’s because your classically liberal America would be a failshit country that I’m focused on winning the next election.”

    You elected the right guy to make this a failshit country and his work is well underway. People feel poorer and more worried already. And they should.

  76. even fast food workers are second-guessing their career choices

  77. I blame Bush.

  78. Well as they get fired because they can’t possibly earn what Fed-Gov demands they get paid, then maybe their shriveled brains will grow three sizes larger. Or maybe they’ll sign up for EBT, grow a gut (sorry Michelle!) , get really good at Xbox, and do favors on the sly for a guy they know in exchange for occasional pizza, beer, pocket money, and doobs.

  79. “I blame Bush.”

    Blame China when they won’t lend us more money, and then blame Geitner when your bank account is worth 8% of what it was worth under Bush.

  80. “I am becone as death, destroyer of worlds” – hindu proverbs

    Captain Ramius:” There’s one thing you haven’t yet asked me: why?”

    Jack Ryan: “Well, I thought you would tell me when you felt ready.”

    Captain Ramius: “….Umm….Well, there are those who believe that we should attack the United States first. Settle everything in one moment. Red October was built for that purpose…..I would imagine that back in Moscow they are accessing the damage at this very moment.”

    Jack Ryan: “….Second thoughts?”

    Captain Ramius: “None….I knew from the day her keel was layed I would do this, besides Mr. Ryan, a little revolution now and then is a good thing, don’t you think?

    Captain Ramius: “There is an island near Vilmus, not unlike that one over there, where my grandfather taught me to fish when I was a boy…… and the sea will grant each man new hope, as sleep brings dreams of home…… Christopher Columbus.

    Jack Ryan: Welcome to the New World, Captain.

  81. Pocket money is like food stamps you can spend anywhere you want

  82. I blame Bush.

    w or hw

  83. Pocket money is like income that the IRS can’t see directly because neighborhood dudes don’t send out W-9’s when they spreading butter round. It might not even be dollars!

  84. Blame China when they won’t lend us more money, and then blame Geitner when your bank account is worth 8% of what it was worth under Bush.

    My retirement account’s worth 160% of what it was worth under Bush. I blame Obama.

  85. I said BANK account. Not investment account. Even that’s bullshit. The dollar is worth less than it was under Bush. And it will continue to lose value as we print money. Blame Obama.

  86. As JD would say. Liar! Care to cite a source on that dollar value thing?

  87. My retirement account’s worth 160% of what it was worth under Bush. I blame Obama.

    – Get back to us on that next summer.

  88. Care to cite a source on that dollar value thing?

    see quantitative easing

  89. You’re the one that needs to convince people that they don’t know that Bush cut their middle class taxes, and that they don’t know that if Congress does nothing their taxes are going to go up.

    It’s interesting that you see it as a marvel that libs have believe a lie for the last 10 years.

  90. It’s interesting that you see it as a marvel that libs have believe a lie for the last 10 years.

    It’s interesting that you don’t think they remember Bush and his tax cuts. I mean they were, like, alive and paying taxes then.

  91. Educate yourself, slope.

  92. ” It’s interesting that you don’t think they remember Bush and his tax cuts. I mean they were, like, alive and paying taxes then.”

    Around 47% are only paying FICA.

  93. sumthing funny happened in 1913-15

  94. It’s interesting that you don’t think they remember Bush and his tax cuts. I mean they were, like, alive and paying taxes then.

    You argument is rather boring.

    a href=”http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sanjay-sanghoee/bush-tax-cuts_b_2207472.html”>cough

    Lemme quote wiki for you:

    “While the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP) has concluded that the tax cuts have conferred the “largest benefits, by far on the highest income households.”[4] The underlying policy has been criticized by Democratic Party congressional opponents for giving tax cuts to the rich with capital gains tax breaks while acknowledging some benefit extended to middle and lower income brackets as well.[5]

    Tax cuts that overwhelmingly helped the rich. THAT has been the mantra we’ve heard. But I’ve got more.

    Economists Peter Orszag and William Gale described the Bush tax cuts as reverse government redistribution of wealth, “[shifting] the burden of taxation away from upper-income, capital-owning households and toward the wage-earning households of the lower and middle classes.

    You can nit pick this, but liberals weren’t willing to give Bush even an iota of credit for easing ANYTHING for the middle class. Thus- his tax cuts? Well, they were for the wealthy, since regardless how it affected the bottom line of those making under 100,000 it wasn’t as much help as it was to THE RICH.

  95. “newrouter says November 30, 2012 at 5:23 pm
    sumthing funny happened in 1913-15″

    They were probably just getting everything ready for the big pandemic of ’18 or something.

  96. Carin I suspect there are many things that amaze slurpee.

  97. I like how you guys keep posting links showing how the dollar cratered under Bush and leveled out under Obama. I blame Bush.

    You also realize that the MSM has been telling everyone for months now that if we go over the fiscal cliff, their taxes are going to go up.

    http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/49356590#49356590

    I wouldn’t be surprised of Oprah and Ellen have told people too.

    So, like, the cat’s out of the bag. Jeff, got a Plan B?

  98. I like how you guys keep posting links showing how the dollar cratered under Bush and leveled out under Obama.

    liar

    gold
    2000 $300
    2009 $900
    2012 $1800

  99. It’s interesting that you see it as a marvel that libs have believe a lie for the last 10 years.

    If I had a dollar for every time I’ve had to point out to a progg over the last 10 years that the Bush rates were cut across the board, I’d have moved to Costa Rica already.

    “Absolutely. Because think about what I am going to be running against: the failed policies of the Bush administration, which John McCain wants to continue. I don’t think there is anybody in this country who thinks that, right now, we have got a government that’s managed our domestic policies well. And, so, we can talk about the slogans of tax and spend or fiscal conservatism, but the fact of the matter is, we have had an administration that’s been profligate, that has raised our national debt to a record level. We have seen a lack of shared prosperity. So, you’ve got CEOs making more in a day than ordinary workers are making in a year, and it’s the CEO that’s getting the tax break, instead of the workers.

    And…

    ” I want to eliminate the Bush tax cuts.” *

    You lie, slope. And you suck at it.

  100. No need for Plan B. Execute Plan A

  101. Oh and let the payroll tax holiday expire while you are at it.

  102. “So, like, the cat’s out of the bag. Jeff, got a Plan B?”

    The plan is to make you live in your own shit until you develop the mental capacity to choose NOT to live in shit anymore.

    ” I like how you guys keep posting links showing how the dollar cratered under Bush and leveled out under Obama. I blame Bush.”

    We didn’t. And of course you blame Bush. So what? CBO blames Obama.

  103. The question, ultimately, is how long you think lying to the American people is going to work. Like the man said:

    The laws of economics can’t be changed by rhetoric and demagoguery.

    The Gods Of The Copybook Headings will limp up to explain it once more. And the guy at the helm will wish he had Bush’s approval ratings circa 2008.

  104. Because with shared prosperity comes shared responsibilities.

  105. So, like, the cat’s out of the bag. Jeff, got a Plan B?

    plan a jump plan b jump jump

  106. http://www.gallup.com/poll/157589/distrust-media-hits-new-high.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication

    Just how much water can the MSM really carry in the face of real financial pain that keeps increasing despite giving Obama another chance ?

  107. I need only bank on the fact that the 24 hour fiscal cliff news cycle has already informed people that if congress does nothing, their taxes go up. But as I always recommend here, Go For IT!

    So, you’re banking on people forgetting the last decade of news cycles and remembering just this one, two years from now? Stellar plan.

  108. This is my plan A and my plan B. In fact, it’s been my strategy all along: go on the offensive, stop being afraid of being called racist, and tell the truth.

    Obama and the Dems spend all their time and energy passing shit they know won’t work while working to blame it on the GOP; meanwhile the GOP plays on the defensive.

    I’m not writing to win you over, slope. You’re a fascist and a waste of time, space, and resources. I’m writing with a mind toward defeating your thoroughly and delegitimating your world view.

    Unfortunately, many on the right have decided that’s not “pragmatic,” such an approach. But I don’t give a fuck about them, either.

  109. When regular Americans find out that the fiscal cliff’s gonna affect them, and not just them rich suits! Whoa is there gonna be a reckoning! Cause right now, like none of them regular folks have any idea!

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/26/cnn-poll-two-thirds-say-fiscal-cliff-poses-major-problem/

    (where “none” apparently equals “2 out of 3″)

    So tell me again, why you so stupeed?

  110. I’m not writing to win you over, slope. You’re a fascist and a waste of time, space, and resources. I’m writing with a mind toward defeating your thoroughly and delegitimating your world view.
    Unfortunately, many on the right have decided that’s not “pragmatic,” such an approach. But I don’t give a fuck about them, either.

    I raise my glass in hopes that you keep about 50% of the Republican party seeing it your way.

  111. Of course people think the fiscal cliff is going to affect them. Were you not around when I blasted Boehner for playing into the hysteria? When I went after Bill Kristol. McCain and Graham. Corker?

    You don’t seem to understand what this site is or who it is for. The fiscal cliff is a manufactured crisis. If the GOP really wants to get cuts and not destroy the private sector at the same time, they’ll just walk away and do exactly as I say: explain to the American people what is happening and why it is happening, noting that Obama now has his tax increase on the wealthy, the end to the dreaded Bush tax cuts, severe cuts in military spending, and the Clinton era rates of the Great and Shiny Pax Americana Blow Job years.

    That’s not to say they will. Naturally, they won’t, because the GOP establishment is as corrupt as the rest of the statist fascists.

    You keep citing your agreement with the stupidity of others who have been used and propagandized as if that makes you smart. It doesn’t. I just means stupidity is popular right now, and the reason is, the GOP establishment is feckless, and people like you dig fascism.

    I’m off for dinner. Have a good night, all.

  112. “I raise my glass in hopes that you keep about 50% of the Republican party seeing it your way.”

    If you say so. It’s not like you matter much in the scheme of things anyway.

  113. cnn-poll

    that’s the propaganda mill at work slippey

  114. If the GOP really wants to get cuts and not destroy the private sector at the same time, they’ll just walk away and do exactly as I say: explain to the American people what is happening and why it is happening, noting that Obama now has his tax increase on the wealthy, the end to the dreaded Bush tax cuts, severe cuts in military spending, and the Clinton era rates of the Great and Shiny Pax Americana Blow Job years.

    And (sigh, again) Obama will say, “See this pen? I’m ready to sign a tax cut for the middle class, restore domestic programs, and restore funding to the military which contains the greatest men and women and gays on earth. But I can’t do all that for you because the Republicans are holding all that hostage unless they get huge tax cuts for the top 1%”.

    In in response the Republican’s will say… what?

  115. I raise my glass in hopes that you keep about 50% of the Republican party seeing it your way.

    Have at it. I’m not looking to win over the other half of the GOP. I’m looking to peel away anyone interested in liberty. You can keep the statists from both parties.

  116. “When regular Americans find out that the fiscal cliff’s gonna affect them, and not just them rich suits! Whoa is there gonna be a reckoning! Cause right now, like none of them regular folks have any idea!”

    I think it will be rather easy to show extensive democrat involvement in it from beginning to end. And surely there will be a reckoning. Who will Obama toss under the bus as distraction this time? Geitner maybe?

  117. “In in response the Republican’s will say… what?”

    Here’s a tax cut with nothing else that you wanted attached to it. Go ahead and sign it. You said it was important.

  118. new – you’re right, I’m sure CNN just completely made up the numbers. It’s really zero percent, even with all the “What the Fiscal Cliff Means To You” edutainment that’s been run.

  119. Let the Dems explain how letting “Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy” expire somehow effects the middle class.

    Obama did that today.

    That’s sort of like the lump of coal you get for Christmas. That’s a Scrooge Christmas.

    This fucker is the love child of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. What. A. Statesman.

  120. In in response the Republican’s will say… what?

    Why don’t you start writing your memoir with that, douchebag?

  121. “slipperyslope says November 30, 2012 at 6:10 pm
    new – you’re right, I’m sure CNN just completely made up the numbers. It’s really zero percent, even with all the “What the Fiscal Cliff Means To You” edutainment that’s been run.”

    Yeah CNN are famously known to be careful, accurate, and serious full time pollsters. Their reputation is spotless. :)

  122. Who will Obama toss under the bus as distraction this time

    Republicans who will keep saying that tax cuts for the top 1% are really important and they’re not budging.

  123. In in response the Republican’s will say… what?

    we signed a deal with the president this is the deal

  124. This fucker is the love child of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. What. A. Statesman.

    slope reminds me that Baracky’s got some P.T. Barnum in him too.

  125. “Republicans who will keep saying that tax cuts for the top 1% are really important and they’re not budging.”

    He can’t toss them under the bus, stupid. Only his own bozos.

  126. I’m sure CNN just completely made up the numbers.

    cnn did some stellar reporting on the other hussein too.

  127. All the republicans need to do is recommend repealing the tax raises once people say they hurt and ask Obama over and over again why he won’t sing legislation repairing a mistake he caused to happen by ignoring it until after the election, and complained endlessly about afterward, and doesn’t he care about the people who voted for him? Does he want them to go through another year of this when he could solve it very easily? Why does Obama always tie helping those suffering under his tax proposals to more spending that we can’t afford or borrow to support? It’s almost like he’s not serious about helping the middle class at all.

    (BTW CNN has the lowest of all cable news network ratings. it;s the least watched cable news station now. Worse even thanMSNBC. )

  128. mcconnell says the most important thing he wants from obama is to means test medicare so it becomes more of a redistribution program

    these republicans as you call them are seriously sick sick people

  129. Conservative groups are sending written warnings to both congressional Republicans and the Republican National Committee. If Republicans sign on to a deal that raises taxes, they risk an open break with large portions of their base. “This is a time of testing for you,” more than 70 conservative leaders write in an open letter sent Friday morning to every GOP member of Congress. They warn that if a budget deal that raises taxes is passed with GOP fingerprints on it, conservatives will “see that the current leadership is not an acceptable alternative to the left. Conservatives would then likely repeat what they did in the 1970s, when they systematically and successfully undertook a multi-year effort to replace Republican congressional leadership.”

    The letter goes on to warn that there are two ways President Obama and liberal Democrats could turn their economic agenda into law. First, just enough Republicans could vote with the Democrats to provide a narrow majority for tax hikes. Or the Republican leadership in both houses could negotiate a “deal” and pressure Republican congressmen and senators to approve it. “Either of these two courses would be a disaster for conservative principles because they would result in permanent advances for the ‘fundamental changes’ the left wants to impose on our country,” the conservative leaders warn.

    Among the leading conservatives who signed the letter are Morton Blackwell, a prominent member of the RNC from Virginia; Colin Hanna, head of Let Freedom Ring; and Tony Perkins, a well-known pro-family leader. Their tough message was amplified and sharpened in a separate letter to Reince Priebus, the RNC’s chair, written this week by Brent Bozell, the chairman of ForAmerica and a noted fundraiser for conservative groups combating media bias and liberal legislation. Bozell noted that he has spent over 30 years raising hundreds of millions of dollars for “an alphabet soup of conservative causes,” including the Media Research Center, which he founded. But his involvement with the Republican party would end with a budget deal that raised taxes.

    “Reince, it pains me to say this, but if the Republican Party breaks its word to the American people and goes along with President Obama with tax increases, it will have betrayed conservatives for the final time,” he wrote. “I will make it my mission to ensure that every conservative donor to the Republican Party that I have worked with for the last three decades—and there are many and they have given tens of millions to Republican causes—gives not one penny more to the Republican Party or any member of Congress that votes for tax increases.”

    link

  130. Here’s what it’s going to come down to:

    Obama: I will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does not include a tax cut for the top 2%.
    Republicans: We will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does include tax cuts for the top 2%.

    We’ll just have to see who wins that one.

  131. We’ll just have to see who wins that one.

    yes your strawman deal works only if the gop doesn’t jump. jumping is fun!

  132. Except there is a lot more to it, and that is not all Barcky is demanding. He wants 1,600,000,000,000 in new taxes. 50,000,000,000 in new spending to reduce the deficit. Unlimited debt ceiling. Vague unspecific mentions of possible cuts at some point in the future.

    When did 200,000k become rich?

    Slurpee is getting more agitated.

  133. “slipperyslope says November 30, 2012 at 6:30 pm
    Here’s what it’s going to come down to:
    Obama: I will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does not include a tax cut for the top 2%.
    Republicans: We will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does include tax cuts for the top 2%.
    We’ll just have to see who wins that one.”

    GOP points out that total revenue from 2% is x, debt and deficet are y, y>> x, economy is slowing because of threat of increased taxes, Why doesn’t Obama care about the middle class? Why will he hurt them just to hurt the 2% who hire people for so little actual revenue ? When will Obama start to care about the deficit and the debt? When will he press Harry Reid for a budget? Why does Obama’s record on the economy have so little to show for his 4 years, two of which were unopposed?

  134. ” happyfeet says November 30, 2012 at 6:27 pm
    mcconnell says the most important thing he wants from obama is to means test medicare so it becomes more of a redistribution program
    these republicans as you call them are seriously sick sick people”

    McConnel is a weak threat of a filibuster at best. He is not really much of a part of the negotiations. Boehner is the weak link under the smithy hammer.

  135. How much “revenue” does slurpee think they will be able to get from the evil 2%?

  136. then he needs to zip it cause he’s just upsetting me

  137. When did 200,000k become rich?

    I’ve been asking that for quite some time.

    There are a tremendous amount of monkeyshines going on with this fiscal cliff bs. Obama wants Congress to give him a blank check to do as he pleases, effectively deleting the Legislative Branch of government and making himself the final arbitrator of all things. This will be doubly true once he packs the Supreme Court with a left liberal asshats.

    He is making himself an Emperor. Let’s stop him.

  138. We’ll just have to see who wins that one.

    Hint: It’s not going to be the guy who’s in charge when it all goes to hell.

  139. “Hint: It’s not going to be the guy who’s in charge when it all goes to hell.”

    Nor will it be the naive fuckers who try to shout down the angry crowd and tell it sweet lies in the same breath. Left out to dry. Krugman under the bus?

  140. We’ll just have to see who wins that one.

    slippey you clowns own it at this point. i mean the gop cry baby only has to ax where’s the budget?

  141. No they just need to say “We tried to warn you. We told you what he would do and what would happen. You didn’t listen. You didn’t believe us. You didn’t look into it. You trusted that con man, you called us liars, and he took you for everything you were worth. We tried to stop this. You would not let us. We know you are hurting. Help us to fix this. Come out and tell the president and the Senate that you want us to fix this and help us be ABLE to fix it in 2014. You made a mistake but if you let us we can still roll it back. “

  142. Present a strong contrast and alternative while noting the dismal record of the democrats in detail with no mercy or softening or worries about whether slippery slope likes it or not. Ask the brutal questions and regularly and savagely mock the press who try to keep them and the answers off camera.

  143. I think this shows quite well why the GOP needs to just back away. There is no deal that can be made right now that will help stop this magical thinking.

    Even if they got a bit of Entitlement reform, it’d just be silly stuff, and it’s not worth any dumb “Trust me, this is the last time I’ll kick the can,” nonsense.

    Better to find ways to help the half of the country that’s preparing for the storm of our lives, not the guys excitedly grabbing their surfboard to catch some post-racial, post-constitution waves.

  144. jump jump jump

  145. Obama: I will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does not include a tax cut for the top 2%.
    Republicans: We will agree to a middle class tax cut but only if it does include tax cuts for the top 2%.

    Slope, my, how times change :

    At high tax rates, vast sums of money disappear into tax shelters at home or is shipped overseas. At lower tax rates, that money comes out of hiding and goes into the American economy, creating jobs, rising output and rising incomes. Under these conditions, higher tax revenues can be collected by the government, even though tax rates are lower. Indeed, high income people not only end up paying more taxes, but a higher share of all taxes, under these conditions.

    This is not just a theory. It is what hard evidence shows happened under both Democratic and Republican administrations, from the days of Calvin Coolidge to John F. Kennedy to Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. […]

    Democrats and Republicans both took positions during the Kennedy administration that were the direct opposite of the positions they take today. As Stephen Moore points out, “the Republicans almost universally opposed and the Democrats almost universally favored” the cuts in tax rates that President Kennedy proposed.

    Such Republican Senate stalwarts as Barry Goldwater and Bob Dole voted against reducing the top tax rate from 91% to 70%. Democratic Congressman Wilbur Mills led the charge for lower tax rates.

    Unlike the Republicans today, John F. Kennedy had an answer when critics tried to portray his tax cut proposal as just a “tax cut for the rich.” President Kennedy argued that it was a tax cut for the economy, that changed incentives meant a faster growing economy and that “A rising tide lifts all boats.”

    If Republicans today cannot seem to come up with their own answer when critics cry out “tax cuts for the rich,” maybe they can just go back and read John F. Kennedy’s answer.

  146. rising tides are clearly a sign of rampant global warming for example when superstorm sandy roared ashore

    it was on cnn

  147. No sign of the Staten Island protests on the national news. Yet.

  148. - The Left, marching behind their magic Unicorn technicolor Golden Urkel, are about to set themselves up for the mother of all political fails.

    – They have already carried the class warfare campaign past the point of no return. No matter what, we’re all going to suffer. At least we can work toward driving the wooden stake through the facist heart of the Progs.

    – Let us all please allow, nay encourage them, to proceed with all haste.

  149. Vol. 76/No. 43 November 26, 2012

    Workers stand on dignity
    in Hurricane Sandy wake
    Protests demand restoration of power, gov’t aid

    link

  150. I was thinking about this today, BBH. They’ve really painted themselves into a corner and it’s all theirs. The class warfare is bad enough, but the racial divide is really going to be Jugears’ legacy of hate and division.

    How we/them ever allowed this jerk to get elected, twice yet, must mean we need some lessons.

    And we’re going to get them, good and hard.

  151. Jeff G. @ 3:44 pm,

    I apologize to you. For some of what I said, and all of how I said it.

    I have only been commenting here a couplathree days or so; which you could probably tell from my comments, as they made clear that I somehow missed the fact that Jeff G. — the commenter — was, in point of fact, Jeff G. — the site founder/author. (tho, that’s not why I’m apologizing. I apologize, separately, to both “Jeffs”)

    In general, we agree more than we disagree. And, I think, we actually agree more than we disagree even on this topic.

    I could blame it on the fact that I get cranky when I’m hungry (which is true). However, the real truth is that I have diarrhea of the keyboard, and the more words I use, the less sense I make; I have a tendency to make mountains of molehills; I get wrapped up in semantic minutia (minutiae?); I become overly intense and closed-minded once I start typing, and, more to the point; I am blunt beyond the point of rudeness — aside from being a rude, boorish, jerk (an “S.O.A.”) in general, and in person …. becoming a flat-out douche once I start in a-arguin’.

    I also apologize to all for my being an S.O.A in many past, present, and future comments.

    As to the content of the post/thread, I do not expect much success from making the argument; nevertheless, it should be made loudly, often, and forever.

    What got me going was that your original post seemed to presume ease and success in Republicans making the stated argument. This is what I mean when I say that I make mountains of molehills and dwell on semantic (or whatever the appropriate word is, …hah!) minutiae.

    I also quibble — admittedly quibbling — with making such arguments your (our) “Plan A” and “Plan B” (as you say in a later comment). I think as “Plan A” it is both good and necessary. But, I think we need different plans “B”, “C”, and “D” running concurrently. You’ll pardon me if I’m a little light on the details of these plans, as I have no idea what they might be. But, at this point in Obamerica, we need something, (almost) anything, more. Maybe you agree, maybe not … I’m not trying to play “gotcha” with the ‘Plan A’ AND ‘Plan B’ thing.

    On a happier note, I have decided to self-restrict my comments to a maximum of one comment of 5 lines or more per day. If I’m still an asshole after a week of such restriction (which is a metaphysical certitude), I might up it to one long comment per week. I’ve gotta do something to force myself to be more succinct, or I’m gonna get carpal tunnel syndrome.

  152. - What we’re seeing Leigh, is a modern day version of Easter Island, except instead of trees the Left is attacking the wealth builders, the engine that creates the jobs that deives a viable economy.

    – Yes, appeals to the baser urges of human nature can turn an already rudderless immoral country towatd self emolation, but in the end it will all come crashing down, and what have they really won?

    – Self involved assholes like slippy think ‘I’ve got mine, and fuck everyone else’, never undertsanding they can’t survive any more than anyone else in a self defeating system.

    – Yes they will learn, at all of our expense.

  153. - Slippy looks at the numbers and says, “Hey lookie here, all the lies and propaganda I’ve had to support, choking on the lies even as I said them, electing some third world anti-coloniakist, and attacking the foundations of American exceptialism and the movers and shakers of industry was a smart move.”

    – The smile will disappear from his smug face when he goes to the grocery store, and the hurt is just beginning,

    – Reality doesn’t give a fuck if he gets it or not. Reality is an equal opportunity teacher.

  154. Ah, don’t worry about it, Yuri. You care and you’re arguing honestly, I wouldn’t worry about how long your posts are.

  155. ….and future comments.

    – Is that like a warning, or a Mexican Amapo (a sort of a get out of jail card for future offenses).

    – At any rate, some of the longest comments are the best, both from Jeff and others, although personally I try really hard to follow the ‘less is more rule’.

    – Bottom line. I’ve been reading Jeff for 10+ years and I’ve never known him to make it an issue.

  156. “So ensign Vihaly, you’re afraid of our fleet…..I don’t blame you….personally I give us one chance in three……More tea anyone?”

  157. Yuri: you’re a new and interesting voice, and a welcome one, unlike some of the other recent additions to our little community. Comment as much as you’d like. We’re big boys (and girls) here; 1000-word comments don’t scare us!

  158. BBH,
    - Is that like a warning, or a Mexican Amapo (a sort of a get out of jail card for future offenses)?

    Yes.

  159. John Bradley,

    Thanks.

    I now you’re all big boys & girls. It’s more a matter of feeling the need to apologize when my comment is unnecessarily rambling, nit-picky, and rude. Necessary rudeness, rambling, and nit-picking is another matter.

  160. I have decided to self-restrict my comments to a maximum of one comment of 5 lines or more per day. If I’m still an asshole after a week of such restriction (which is a metaphysical certitude), I might up it to one long comment per week. I’ve gotta do something to force myself to be more succinct,

    Comment more. Don’t apologize. You aren’t in the Top 20 Assholes here.

  161. Dippery Dope has some SPLAININ’ to do. Unless he still wants to blame Bush like a tape recorder. I blame Obama.

    http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/30/study-american-households-hit-43-year-low-in-net-worth/

  162. You aren’t in the Top 20 Assholes here.

    True. But we who are, are jealous of our position. If you want in, you have to earn it.

  163. Yuri,

    What Jeff refers to as “indoctrination” I think of as a more all encompassing system for “enculturation” which the left has been engaged in through the school systems and more intensively in college where they can have a 24/7 influence.

    I have written pieces about this a number of times here, boring and long though they may be.

    This brainwashing does wear off over time for those who land back in, what we think of as, normal society though some traces will linger on where the left made a particularly strong impression.

    Those whose adult working lives keep them close to others of the same cultural mind set will continue to see the world through the same emotional lens.

    Each side in this sees the other as insane and by their own lights each is correct.

  164. That Mansfield interview would fit quite nicely there geoffb.

  165. So it would so… link.

  166. I’ll also add the Hayek quote you sent me.

    “Everything which might cause doubt about the wisdom of the government or create discontent will be kept from the people. The basis of unfavorable comparisons with elsewhere, the knowledge of possible alternatives to the course actually taken, information which might suggest failure on the part of the government to live up to its promises or to take advantage of opportunities to improve conditions–all will be suppressed. There is consequently no field where the systematic control of information will not be practiced and uniformity of views not enforced.”

    And a couple of links to illustrative of the mind set.

  167. — provided the GOP’s refusal to capitulate is coupled to a specific, compelling, and (most importantly) truthful narrative that will shift the onus entirely onto the Democrats.

    You had me right up to the truthful part. Modern politician can’t tell the truth even when it is to their benefit.

  168. And the disconnect you guys are having with slope is you are trying to discuss things rationally, using facts and logic and ideology.

    Slope is a fascist and a tyrant. Might makes right. As long as his are winning elections and public opinion polls, they must be correct.

  169. - Nah moe, he’s just a run of the mill cynical opportunist like 90% of the bozo’s that blend in with the bullshit left for personal gain.

    – As soon as the whole circus goes in the dumper there will be a mass amnesia.

  170. I like how you guys keep posting links showing how the dollar cratered under Bush and leveled out under Obama. I blame Bush.

    Something strange happened after the Dems took congress ion 2007.

  171. 1000-word comments don’t scare us!

    Why would they when you’ve seen 1000-word sentences here from time to time?

  172. Thousand word sentences containing 35 links even…

Leave a Reply