Question: an online friend of mine (and former frequent commenter here, before he went off to gun blog) just got a KRISS vector and really seems to like it. Because it shoots 45 ACP — same as my pistols — it’s appealing to me as a rifle purchase.
Thing is, it’s pretty pricey.
What rifles do you all recommend and why? Sell me on your favorites. And teach me about them. I need to learn about rifles just as I have about handguns.
GO!
Look at some other .45 ACP pistol-ammo Carbines?:
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/carbines_45caliber.html
https://www.masterpiecearms.com/products.php?cat=34
Are you looking almost purely towards defense or do you have some hunting in mind as well?
I figure lots of people have better ideas on the defense side but I do have some thoughts about rifles that’ll also help out with some of those wild Colorado animals.
Jeff, Marlin makes their 1894 Model lever actions in .45 Long Colt, .357 Mag / .38 Special, and .44 Magnum pistol calibers.
I suppose I see a split between the desire for a semi-auto and bolt along those lines.
Just about every rifle I’d recommend buying new is a bolt action but that might not make sense depending on what you want. Browning X-Bolt, Remington 700, Winchester 70 (to name a few reasonably priced options) are all good rifles and won’t kill your bank account but they aren’t a kitted out AR-15 or something along that line.
Heckler and Koch’s USC looks pretty cool but it’s like $2G.
http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/usc_general.asp
Beretta has one for $900 or so.
http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/
A semi-auto Thompson knock off might be fun. Probably over $2000 though. I have no idea. But 30 rounds and a WW2 strap would sure look and feel good!
More like a grand.
First, just as with handguns, I would pick up a decent .22 rifle for practice. They are smaller and lighter and therefore usual for training the others in your family as well. If you thought .22 handgun ammo was ridiculously cheaper, wait until you price long gun ammo.
I’ll limit my comments to bolt action rifles since I don’t have much practical experience with AR-15s, AK-47s, etc. Personally, I’m a fan of the Browning A-Bolt .270. For anything smaller than a grizzly bear I think it will do just fine without the additional weight and cost of larger caliber log guns. I think you will see the same bias towards larger calibers in long guns from many that you see in handguns, IMHO. FWIW, there’s a couple of good reasons most .50 long guns are mounted by the way. The only people that aren’t mounting them are real special purpose, or should I say, special forces, types like snipers. Nothing wrong with that, but that’s a whole different animal when it comes to expertise and expense. The larger the caliber the less likely your wife or kids can even think about using it.
A couple more final notes. Get a good scope, but you don’t really need a $500 scope unless you are sniping. Practice with and without the scope, especially with the .22. I think you’ll enjoy playing around with the different types of bullets available, whatever gun you choose. The high precision plastic tips are pretty cool. Finally, get some sabot slugs and 00 buckshot for your shotgun and take them out and try them as well.
Sorry, meant to say useful rather than usual above.
If money is no object, look at Zeiss scopes. I have a couple of Leupold scopes that are noticeably less expensive than Zeiss, but almost as expensive as the guns themselves. Worth it though.
I gotta second the recommendation for the .22 for practice, especially as you have a son. That’s how I learned to shoot when I was small and the minimal recoil and super cheap ammo is the perfect combination for plinking away for hours. Myself, I’d recommend shooting that with open sights until your grouping starts looking pretty good at range.
I picked up a Howa 1500 bolt action in .308 with an okay scope for $600 in CA. (Howa shares the same action as the Weatherby Vanguard line)
Out of the box, the rifle should shoot about a minute and half of angle . (roughly inch and a half groups @ 100 yards)
Unfortunately, shooting .308, you’re looking at $1 a shot or thereabouts.
Anyway, it’s possible to pick up a good rifle for a reasonable price these days.
For the gun people on this blog, I changed to a stock with a full bed block and replaced the factory trigger. The rifle now shoots under a MOA. It’s really cool to walk up to the target and realize the reason you only see two holes from a three shot string is due to one hole being just a bit larger than the other.
Here’s thousands of hours of fun for only $150 at Cabela’s.
For hunting and sniping at an affordable price, I cannot highly enough recommend the Ruger M77 in .257 Roberts. Mauser bolt action. You have a range of barrels ( 18 to 27 inches, my 24’s are what I like) Accurate at 300 to 500 yards depending on optics and the shooters experience. The ammunition isn’t too pricey, and reload kits are available.
Blake, mine are set by a gunsmith at 1 1/2 lbs pull. 100 yards, 5 in a quarter is not abnormal (Bench rest but manually operated, just as you would coyote hunting )
Recommend the Ruger 10/22 as the .22 cal rifle. I also like the Mini 14/30 but that is just an opinion from my shooting ones owned by friends many years ago.
I do agree with Charles Austin that the .270 is one of the best all around hunting rounds. Jack O’Conner hooked me way back on that. As a practical matter something in .308 Winchester/7.62×51 NATO would have better availability and cheaper per shot cost. I have one of these but it’s a hunting gun. I loved my dad’s Model 760 pump in .270 but he sold it for the 742 I now have.
Geoffb? I have a mini 14, but won’t hunt with it. It’s a LOT of fun to shoot though!!
(Just wanted to mention something on range as we’re talking about that a bit. When I was talking about getting a decent grouping with open sights with a .22, I’m only talking 50 feet. That was the competition distance when I was a kid, I think.)
OOPs…..I do not own any weapons. Like poor Crankyd, mine were lost in an unfortunate accident involving fire and ice. At the same time…JUST after I moved into Mass.
Get something on the AR-15 platform, preferably SAAMI rated for 5×56, not just .223. Reasons are manifold, but a big one in the current political climate is that if there is some kind of ban in the future, there’s an assload of parts floating around that can be purchased without an FFL transfer. The receiver is the gun, the rest are just parts.
Also, if you’re mechanical, with a few parts and tools you can build your own and save some $$ or trick it out with custom parts. You could even stock up on receivers that you purchase now, with the plan to build more in the future when you have spare cash for parts, which again are not “the gun” and can be purchased confidentially.
Then buy a reloading press.
For .22 rifles, I really like the Ruger 10-22.
I think having a carbine that shoots the same round as your handgun is a really good idea, but it will never be as good as a rifle that shoots dedicated rounds. I would put the carbine down the list a ways. On the other hand, your wife or older son could shoot the carbine with no trouble.
If you want to be able to hunt large game, as opposed to just doing defense, then something in a .270 or 30-06 would be a better choice. If you’re only thinking of defense, then an AR-15 of some kind would probably be fine. Plus, they are everywhere, so it’s more likely you’ll be able to find parts for them no matter what happens, and the recoil is not bad at all.
By the time I finished my comment, others had already said most of it. Great minds and all that.
bh, 100 yards with a .22 is so doable with just a 4x older Leopold. It’s just a matter of practice and ballistics really…
My uncle has used the Ruger Mini-30 to hunt fairly large game. I used to have one before that unfortunate accident involving the loss of my guns that hadn’t been sold to that guy down the street before he moved. Since it shoots the 7.62×39 cartridge, getting ammo is not a problem, and recoil is mild.
I’ll jump on the .22 bandwagon as well. My brother has a Ruger 10-22, and it’s a nice gun for practicing. I picked up a Mossberg tactical .22 over the weekend (its a 702 Plinkster w/plastic AR shell) just for fun, and it is fun. Not a lot of rifle experience beyond that, but I have shot a Mini-14 and it was a blast, so I’ll pass my condolences to Blitz for his unfortunate loss…
If I could piggyback on this recommendation thread I wonder if anyone has heard anything negative about the Browning X-Bolt in 30-06?
No experience with the mini 30, but I can say that you cannot go wrong with a Ruger, be it rifle or handgun.
Blitz, yeah, I was shooting off sand bags, no lead sled or anything like that.
I ordered a trigger from Timney set at 2lbs for my Howa. Made a world of difference.
I keep telling myself I’m going to spring for a top of the line Weatherby chambered for .308 at some point. Probably happen after I win the lottery.
Thank you Abraham, just a strange coincidence…Me moving to Mass and the loss of all my weapons on the same damned day!!
By the way, IF I was to carry? I’d carry a SW .357 mag revolver. 3 inch barrel, low profile, can chamber the cheaper .38. ( but y’all know that)
Oh, definitely, Blitz. I guess when I was younger I was taught that you learn to shoot a tight group with an open sight before moving on so it’s my inclination to recommend the same. Prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, open sights and sling with a .22 at 50 feet.
2 lotteries Blake….My late lamented over/under 12 guage still holds a place in my heart, but to replace it today? I shudder and thank the Lors I don’t have to.
Of course, it’s entirely possible adults told us this because you could buy a million .22s for a nickel.
bh, Gampa gave me my first .22 when I was 6. Still used to have it, thousands of rounds of fun!! Thing is, I learned on scopes ( sometimes painfully ) and given iron sights, would probably shoot my eye out!!
bh, as adults having to buy our own ammunition, it’s hard to argue with their reasoning.
Assuming you’re primarily interested in defense, what Alec said for all those reasons. Further, it’s extremely reliable, simple to get proficient with and .22 conversion kits are easy to come by so you can plink your days away w/o breaking the bank.
Also, it’s a crazy ass military assault machine shotgun with 1,000,000 round mags. Which, how cool is that?
Blitz – sometimes strange coincidences just happen. Kind of like how the day I moved from CA to NC, a couple of 15-round magazines for my Glock magically appeared!
It’s weird how that can happen, Abraham.
You guys crack me up.
Tell me about it Cranky and Abe…Things appear and dissapear depending on the Chief in your hometown.
Once? ALL my handguns went out in a fireworks accident, then I found an orphan 10/22…the poor thing was so cold and tired and lonely that I just had to take it in!! Decided not to register it with the AKC, but miraculously, Mass decided that the Castle Doctrine was the law of the land.
was lost in a mudslide on MT. Greylock, poor thing.
“Also, it’s a crazy ass military assault machine shotgun with 1,000,000 round mags. ”
I know. The military can’t even put them on their attack helicopters anymore. And remember kids: depleted uranium is more radioactive than any other substance on the planet! Or off! DU core bullets are chemical/nuclear weapons!
Depleted Uranium, the OTHER white meat!!
Yep, a near miss from a DU round, your toenails fall off, and your MIL moves in, all because of the intense radiation.
On the rifle side, one thing I do NOT recommend is a winchester lever action 30-30. Nasty recoil to go with inaccuracy and a top ejection system that interferes with optics.
Used to own a Browning 30.06, sold it due to the recoil ( I’m a small person ) But it WAS amazingly accurate even for someone afraid to shoot it.
The Marlin 30-30 is a sweet shooter, I’d get a pad for the stock, but nice, accurate and good for hunting anything, including zombies and progressives!! ( or is that redundant? )
It’s very difficult to go wrong with a bolt-action rifle, bh. They all use mature, proven designs. I have not heard anything bad about the X-bolt, and the 30-06 is an incredibly popular cartridge that is useful for all North American game except, possibly, bears. All you need to do is select a good bullet weight and you’re done.
Guns and Ammo this month has an article on the 30-06 cartridge that might be worth reading. I certainly learned a few things from it.
“Also, it’s a crazy ass military assault machine shotgun with 1,000,000 round mags. ”
I do believe that Remington or Mossburg – can’t remember which – makes a 12-guage receiver and barrell that piggybacks under the AR-15 rifle barrel.
Kind of cool.
Cranky, Bears are actually an overshoot for a 30.06. a 30-30, hell, a .270 will take an average black bear. Maybe a brown, Kodiac or Polar would take an .06, but mostly? anything over a .223 will do.
Sounds interesting. I’ll take a look, cranky.
I’ve been looking at the new 10/22 take-down, but I’m a geek who gets pulled in by those things.
I’ve looked at the KRISS, but, yeah, if I were going to drop that much money I’d be going for a Springfield M1A or a replica Thompson.
Thanks, Blitz. I know nothing about shooting bears (and am not interested in doing so anyway) except that choosing the wrong caliber can just make them angrier.
I had a Springfield M1A before that unfortunate series of events. They cost about the same as the Vector.
So, apparently, “Monday” is a racial slur.
Sure, but not as cool as a 40MM grenade launcher.
/Ah, the good old days…
haven’t read all the comments, so if I’m echoing someone, srry!
A rifle loaded with a pistol round is, in general, useless as a battle rifle. That said, one of my favorite rifles is a .44 Mag lever gun that’s fun to own and to shoot. But as a battle rifle, no.
A rifle needs to be effective to at minimum 250 yards, delivering a bullet that retains significant energy at that range, and shoots ‘flat’ enough to not have to have crazy corrections necessary in aiming at a target that far off. Back when I was a teenager I studied every ballistics chart I could find, and determined the best possible cartridge that met all those criteria was the 7mm Remington Magnum. Still my favorite to this day.
But, you’ll want a battle rifle, since for a while you can still buy one. The. 308 is best, much better IMHO than the .223 Remington – 5.54 NATO that is, after all, just a .22.
I also own. 30-30 lever guns, the most popular cartridge America has ever made. And I wish I had a .30-06, the second most popular (read: easily available) cartridge in America.
Bottom line: don’t waste money buying a rifle chambered sub-par pistol.
Get in your wayback machine, head back to any point in the 50s and pick up an M-1 Garand or three.
Without knowing what you want it for, how could I begin to advise?
I can only give vague input, like you’ll probably want 2-3 long guns of different types.
And whatever else you get, if you’re concerned about bans, get an AR-15 and/or AR-10 type receiver for $100-120, you can build the rest of the rifle later (it’s *sooooo* easy).
One of the reasons the ARs are so popular is you can do almost anything with them, from .22LR to pistol calibers (9mm, 40, 45 most popular) to light rifle (.223, 7.62×39, 6.8mm ppc), and in the larger platform (AR-10 type) .308, .243/284, 7mm… there are even custom versions for magnum calibers (7mm, .300, .338 Win).
And the ergonomic features are still pretty much the best. And there are a billion accessories – they say it’s like Barbie for guys (but not just for guys!).
BUT like I said, we need to know why you want it before we can really help. Home defense? Zombie apocalypse? Plinking? Hunting three-horned Jackalopes? Civil War re-enacting? Cosplay?
CMP (look it up) still has Garands a lot cheaper than commercial, last time I checked. They are very nice and historical, but heavy and a little finicky to operate.
What serr8d said. All that extra cartridge is there for a reason.
For a long-range rifle (especially on a budget), I also vote for the 7mm Remington Magnum – it’s the most common belted magnum, one of the most popular magnums overall, and the 7mm has a higher sectional density and tends to have a better ballistic coefficient as a result.
That gobbledeygook means that at very long ranges, the 7mm actually performs better and retains more energy than the .300WM – though the .300WM has more energy inside about 400-500 yards.
Are you likely to make a shot that far? No, not unless you’re competing.
Both will have stout recoil.
I got mine because someone I know was building a .50 BMG rifle for a 1-mile shot and I wanted to see how *cheaply* I could make the same shot. Mind you, the 7mm would have the energy of a spitball at that range, but would still hit a target.
If money was no object it’d be the .50, or a .338 Lapua if I needed a lighter rifle. Either one costs about the same.
If I wanted to have the *most* common medium-heavy rifle caliber. it would be the 7.62×51 (.308 Winchester), which is of course also a NATO caliber, unlike the 7mm.
Holy Moses, Jeff… what is that abortion you just linked? A .45 ACP carbine?
Serr8d said it above, and is absolutely correct. A rifle should fire a RIFLE cartridge, preferably something in the commonly-available NATO calibers (5.56, 7.62, etc). Among the advantages of a rifle (in addition to longer sight radius, higher magazine capacity, better intrinsic accuracy, longer range…) is the ability to fire a higher-velocity rifle cartridge, with much better ballistic performance down-range. This equates to more pain for your target.
An AR15-pattern rifle is exactly what you’d be wanting: lightweight, corrosion-resistant, magazine-fed, accurate, and effective within any realistic engagement distance you’re likely to encounter. There are myriad options for sights, grips, stocks, fore-ends, lights, lasers, NVGs, etc. The sky’s the limit, and you can get the rifle EXACTLY the way you want it.
The bonus, of course, is that such rifles also make Michael Moore, Mayor Bloomberg, and other assorted nitwits wet their pants.
Join us, Jeff… Black-Rifle-Disease isn’t so bad. In fact, it might suit you.
Pistol cartridges should be fired through pistols. A pistol caliber carbine is far less effective at any distance than a carbine firing a rifle cartridge, even one as poor as the 5.56 NATO. The only advantage a pistol cartridge can SOMETIMES have is the ability to use a supressor and a subsonic cartridge for a quieter gun. However, with the growing popularity of the .300 Blackout even that advantage is disappearing, even though the .300 has issues of its own. The KRISS is a very intriguing weapon but considering its price, plus the need for SBR and/or supressor stamps from the BATFE which significantly increase the cost beyond its already high point, you would probably be better off springing for a decent M4-type carbine in 5.56 or preferably 6.8mm. While the 7.62 is also an excellent round, I think that it is better off in a full size (18 inch of longer barrel) weapon, while the 5.56 and 6.8 can both be quite effective in shorter carbines.
I’d look here first: Daniel Defense https://danieldefense.com/rifles/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v4.html
or here at LaRue Tactical http://www.laruetactical.com/16%E2%80%9D-larue-tactical-predatar-556
Of course if price is more of a concern the Colt 6920 such as this http://www.ratworxusa.com/pagDetail.aspx?SKU=RW-Colt-LE-6920-MP
is quite good and can be had for much less than the Daniel Defense or LaRue, as the price on that page shows. The similar Colt 6720 can even be purchased at some WalMart locations.
So the KRISS is no good? I was figuring that in close-quarter urban environments it might be a very nice combat weapon, and one that shares ammo with my pistols.
Secondary to that I was looking for a more general purpose rifle, one that can shoot long range accurately (a couple hundred yards is probably enough) but that might also work if I’m forced to hunt for food. (Over 25 yards; The FNP tac pistol with the Trijicon is actually very accurate and could probably suffice for hunting up to 25 yards or so.)
In a lot of these possible scenarios I’d recommend putting on camouflage and hauling ass into the woods.
Problem with close quarters urban environments is that you’re right there making a very nice target yourself.
Shit, bug out and watch what’s happening from your scope.
Yes, I might be a hilljack.
bh —
I’m thinking about how to get to the hills. Not looking to stay and play. Looking to clear a path.
Thanks for the link, Dan H!
You can’t go wrong with a 7.62 (or .308) caliber rifle. AR15s can be had in that caliber. It should be adequate for just about any game in North America.
For AR-15s I like the S&W M&P 15. It’s not the best, but it’s solid and as cheap as the bottom-shelf stuff.
Do your homework and buy quality – you don’t have to pay top dollar for it but don’t just buy the cheapest or what Gun Shop Guy says.
*Never* listen to Gun Shop Guy. Or, worse, people on the internet. Gads!
DD and Larue as DanH pointed out are great shops.
I guess for me that’d be my 12 gauge or the 30-30 as they’re both easy to aim at moving objects.
Don’t really have any knowledge that way at all though, Jeff. Around here you’re never more than about 20 feet from the actual woods.
If you have only one rifle, it should be a Ruger 10/22. Buy a couple of extra 10 round clips, put a scope on if you are inclined.
Out of the box, it will be the most reliable and inherently accurate weapon you own. It can also teach you good shooting skills without having to go into hock for ammo.
If it’s fighting you are thinking of, I vote along with the AR platform crowd. Chambered in NATO 5.56, not .223. FWIW I have fired literally thousands of steel case Russian bullets from my Bushmaster without any trouble at all. I use only milspec cleaning gear (Hoppes solvent and CLP) and it just keeps on running. Still, I carry a spare parts kit in the pistol grip just in case a spring, pin, or extractor goes south on me… . Don’t hunt anything bigger than a coyote with .223. Just don’t.
If it’s having a solid three hundred yard or better game getter, any Ruger or Savage bolt in .308 Winchester or larger is a good place to start. I shoot .30-06 because I own a Garand but were I to go out looking today I would probably go .308 (which coincidentally is the equivalent to the 7.62mm Nato round used in weapons like the M60) and get a ranging scope. Buy a synthetic stock if you are serious about accuracy.
I am not a magnum guy. I’ve never seen an animal go more than ten feet after being hit properly with a 180 grain premium bullet from a .30-06. Know the rifle, know the range, no problem.
I would like a Marlin carbine in .357/.38… but I’d rather have a rifle if I had work to do.
This, linked by Pablo awhile back, is amazing for it’s wisdom & clarity. Ignore that ballcap, though. Personally, I’d burn the damned thing.
http://www.youtu.be/bi6DBnQ_tUo
I have both a 10/22 and a Mini 30; both of them rugged and accurate and easy to maintain. I have a scope on the 10-22 and am about to get one on the Mini-30. I’ve probably shot 5,000+ rounds through the 10-22 in the last 5 years; absolutely no problems.
The only thing I haven’t been able to find is a reliable magazine for the 10-22 except for the Ruger original rotary 10 rounders. I’ve tried a couple of 30 rounders and they consistently misfeed.
Of course, I also have a Garand and a Ruger Blackhawk chambered for .30 carbine.
The biggest reason to have a rifle and pistol that use the same cartridge is that if one breaks you still have something to use the ammo with in a SHTF situation.
Have you priced a box of. 30 Carbine lately, SDN? SHOCK the monkey!
I’ve a gen-u-ine M-1 Carbine that saw service in the European theater. Immaculate condition, it was my Grandfather’s. With 3 magazines. I’ve only fired it once, 30 years or so ago…but it’s fully functional, and loaded.
There’s nothing wrong with owning a Ruger 10/22.
However, the 10-22 magazines are a weak point… but there is a manufacturer out there who makes a good one:
http://www.tacticalinc.com/rimfire-rifle-mags-c-97_152.html
I have a bunch of these for a suppressed 10/22 I own (properly papered, with tax stamp). They run well, and can be had in a variety of finishes. If you have one that doesn’t feed right, you can actually adjust the four set-screws on the top of the magazine to assure a perfect fit.
See, that — and being able to carry with me the necessities only if I’m in a bug out situatiom — is what was driving my thinking.
I watched that this morning, serr8d, after you Tweeted it.
Sorry he doesn’t like my fancy handgun, but I do — I think reflex sights and lasers on pistols are terribly useful in just the kinds of scenarios he’s talking about, where people aren’t providing clear targets, etc.
Sure, the rifle is the first and best tool. But not everyone has the military gunsmith training that dude does, so we buy better equipment hoping it doesn’t break down as readily.
TmjUtah —
Bushmaster was one I was looking at awhile back. I’ll revisit it. Thanks for the reminder.
See, that — and being able to carry with me the necessities only if I’m in a bug out situatiom — is what was driving my thinking.
multitasking tools.
A pistol caliber carbine is a fun shooter, and it absolutely fulfills Rule One. Smaller framed folk or the recoil -shy person will certainly like them more than a bolt ’06.
I have probably mentioned the IMI Timberwolf pump action .357/.38 carbine before. They were sold here before the Clinton years and are almost impossible to find for sale.
You can load a top-limit 158gr soft tip bullet for it that is almost .30-.30 power at under a hundred yards.
I’m not a big fan of the .45 ACP as a carbine caliber because the ammo is so heavy.
As is the long, pointy bullet.
It may well be. But the primary purpose of a rifle is to reach out and touch someone. You’re not going to do that effectively with a pistol round.
Speaking of bug out situations, has anyone here put any thought into when the best time to leave might be?
Do you shelter in place until the hordes finish panicking, or do you head out with the first rush?
Do you look for like minded people in the area you can work with or do you try to be as self sufficient as possible?
Think first.
But sometimes you have to think fast.
His point seems to me to be that practice is a hell of a lot more valuable.
Depends on where you are. If you’re in an urban area, you’re already running late.
What can I say? Everyone needs a Ruger 10/22, unless you’re fussy about accuracy like me and spring for a Ruger m77/22. But a good .22 lr is required equipment. That’s just not debatable.
I like carbines to match my handgun calibers just to keep things simple and I love my Browning M92 and Marlin m1894 lever-actions in .44 mag to match my .44 handguns. But then I live in big bear country (and I kid myself that a .44 mag will save my ass if Big Wahb is looking for lunch).
For closer to home use I’ve been looking hard for a Marlin camp carbine in .45acp — uses the same mags as my 1911 and gives significantly higher velocity than a handgun with its longer barrel.
For the zombie apocalypse you’ll want a good 12 gauge and a semi-auto rifle in a military caliber, either 5.56 or 7.62. Or both. Guns are a great investment right now, can’t have too many of them!
Jeff, I think you are making a big mistake worrying about having your ammo fit both your handgun and your long gun. They are two different tools with two very different purposes. If you take good care of your tools, you really shouldn’t have to worry about one of them failing, and that’s why you have three or four (or five or ten) anyway.
Carbines have their uses, but I’m not that big a fan. Lot’s of good info above, but you need to find some friends with these guns and go shoot them to get a feel for what they can and can’t do and what’s practical.
serr8d, I have priced .30 carbine lately, which is why I’m glad I bought about 1000 rounds back in 2007. Now I just replace a box or two when I shoot it.
Strategic shopping isn’t just for food.
Don’t get a pistol-caliber carbine simply for commonality of ammunition. You give up too many of the advantages of a rifle when you neuter it with a pistol cartridge.
Seriously.
A wise man (Clint Smith) once said “The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down.”
In fact, Clint’s facility would be a good starting place for your training:
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/director.html
In combat, yes. But it’s a bit awkward to carry a rifle everywhere you go so there’s a convenience advantage to a pistol.
Personally, if I’m in a close quarters situation, I’m grabbing the shotgun first.
If I had to ‘bug out’ (God forbid) I’d have a shotgun first, a .22 pistol next and an AK-style battle rifle (in 7.62 x 39). But the shotgun would be the first to come to mind, and is the closest to hand.
Recall.
I’d change it up a little serr8d, Shotgun first, it is by far the most deadly civilian weapon within 50 yards or so, perfect to clear your way out of town. Then something like a Remington 700 SPS, with a good scope (Nightforce, Leupold, will cost more than rifle), then whatever else I can carry/pack.
Caliber? .308
That, too. The ballistic coefficient of 45 ACP hollow points is only slightly higher than 22LR, whereas 30-06 rounds are about 3x either of them. 50 BMG is more like 8x, because mass goes up as round volume cubed. Higher ballistic coefficient (sometimes referred to as beta) means the round decelerates less quickly due to drag than does a lower-beta round.
If you’re firing FMJ, beta goes up to about 0.18, which is just about half of what you’d get with 223 Remington, and less than half of 30-06.
Couple that with reduced muzzle velocity due to the lower charge, and you’re talking drastically reduced range, increased trajectory droop and corresponding penalty in striking power. Striking power and flatness of trajectory are both functions of velocity squared, so it’s kind of a double penalty, going to a rifle that shoots pistol rounds.
Accuracy is another point that others could cover better. I think the round-nose FMJs are probably less accurate than the pointy rifle rounds, but I dunno for sure.
Your reasons for wanting common ammunition may be good ones, though. Your call.
Yes, start with a bolt action chambered in .22 Long Rifle. Savage is currently making some affordable accurate models. Once you are ready to move up to a centerfire consider the new Ruger American which can be had for under $350.
Jeff, if you want to learn about various platforms and models I highly recommend checking out Mr. Quinn’s site ;
http://gunblast.com/
His reviews are detailed and devoid of bullshit and bravado.
take this one for example:
http://gunblast.com/Savage-Rascal.htm
Love the .308 too. If I had room for it…
The reason for the .22 pistol? There’s nothing better than the Ruger. I’ve been a lifetime pistolero, and can put that little .40 gr slug in potential food at a respectable distance, sans need for optics. I just ordered from the link above a folding stock for my 10-22, also a lifetime favorite. Practice with a .22 is effortless, cost-wise. The more time it’s pointed down range, the better one will be in intersecting bullet with intended target.
The AK is just plain mean-spirited. The ammo was once cheap, and I’ve some of that. Lying around. With steel cores. That will penetrate engine blocks, or so I’ve heard.
Dave J —
I actually relied on Quinn’s review in picking up the Taurus 24/7 OSS Tac.
But I’ll check it out for rifles, too.
So I was thinking, damn, I need a long-range defense/deer hunting capable weapon. I ended up with a Thompson Center Vantage in 30-06. Fairly inexpensive rifle with good accuracy. 30-06 won out over .308 because of its ubiquity. If the SHTF and I’m trading for or scavenging ammo, I’m pretty sure I stand a better chance of finding 30-06. Their ballistics at 300 yds are basically equal, and I’m not sure I could realistically identify friend or foe any farther away than that anyway, even if I’m pretty sure I could hit a man-size target at 500 yds.
My 10/22 is intended for small game, and the carbines (.223, 9mm) for closer defense that might be a stretch with handgun sights, if not handgun rounds.
Oops, re: carbines, forgot to add handgun barrel lengths as well as sights.
There are two ways of looking at that, Pablo. My first instinct is to say, why of course, that’s a given.
My second instinct would be to remind him that, all things being equal, and supposing things go sideways before I’m able to have practiced as much as the next guy, I’d rather like to have that difference made up for me because I have an upper hand technologically speaking than not.
And if we do practice the same amount, I likely now have the upper hand.
Now, okay. Somebody try to take all the info presented and sum up. Because lots of caliber numbers in multiple formulations I don’t understand are being thrown around.
Here’s what I’m getting, I think.
1) I should have a .22 to at least practice with. I don’t as of yet. The next gun we buy when we have the money is a pistol for my wife. After that, we’re looking to buy a rifle. Is this going to get me by if it’s the only rifle I own before things go bad?
2) I should have a shotgun. I don’t. See number 1, above. I still like the idea of a bullpup shotgun, but I’m willing to be talked out of that. Should I buy the shotgun before the rifle?
3) carbines: some like them, some don’t. What are the pros and cons?
4) What is the consensus for the best all-around / most practical / most useful rifle? Is it something on the AR-15 platform?
Thanks, all. I appreciate the input. Lot to take in here.
My two cents.
Any weapon is nothing more than a tool. The finest weapon in the hands of an unskilled, untrained, inexperienced shooter is near useless. A mediocre weapon in the hands of a skilled and experience shooter can be incredibly effective. Just like any other tool.. and just like the old adage… guns dont kill people (effectively), people kill people (effectively).
Before you ask the question, “what is the best?”, ask the question, “what do I want to accomplish?”.. The skillset and weapon needed for sniping (for example) is very different than what’s needed for close range urban combat , door kicking or personal self defense…
But ultimately, training, practice and experience will do more for you than spending tons on hardware… Then again, buying cool toys is always fun.
Jeff,
When I started my collection, I had three ideas in mind: Ammunition availability, cost and reliability.
I went with a plain jane 1911 ($500) and a scoped .308 ($600). Ammunition for the 1911 and the .308 is readily available. The .308 is bolt action, because I’m not wild about semi-auto long arms and I think reliability in a rifle is more important than reliability in a pistol. Although, the 1911 design does have a track record.
After that, I’ve added a couple of things, but, more than likely, the most useful firearm in my collection in a SHTF situation will be my .22 rifle.
My point being that I started with what I consider the basics and built out from there.
A couple of final notes, the cheapest thing to buy and a good place to start is with a good .22. You can practice with that and get used to firing long guns cheaply for a long time while you decide on the other long guns you want. You are always going to want to keep it for plinking, practice, and training the kids, so in no way would this purchase be wasting money.
You may want another thread on it, but I’d get a shotgun after that, unless you are concerned about home protection or having to bug out in which case I’d get the shotgun first. I’m sure that there’s lots of good information available from posters here regarding pump or semi-auto — I’m partial to semi-auto myself. I’d think everyone would recommend a 12 gauge if you only have one. A 20 guage is lighter and more sporting while a .410 is a good for training others in your family and even more sporting for light game. I still have the one I got when I was 10. But I digress.