Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Patrick Frey has made public statements on his blog claiming that at some point this year I “serially harassed” someone of his acquaintance via email. I maintain that I did no such thing. In fact, I asked that any correspondence purporting to be from me that engages in (as Frey described it) “unhinged” “harassment” be released and reprinted, because I further maintain that any correspondence purporting to be from me that meets Frey’s description did not come from me.
Frey has also stated publicly that, according to my supposed harassment victim(s) — whom he claims to believe (thus far with no public reservations) — said victims engaged an attorney to draft and send to me a cease and desist letter. I maintain that I never received such a letter nor refused such a letter, either via regular mail or through email (though in the latter case, I’d need to know the email address of the attorney who sent the letter to make certain it didn’t get caught up in the spam filter).
If such a crime has indeed been committed, as Frey and his victim maintain it has been — and I did not send emails to anyone matching the description of these crimes as they have been described to me — I’m forced to conclude either that Frey and his victim are being dishonest and have been making false accusations (DDA Frey has since publicly accused me of editing my sent email folder to remove traces of the victim’s identity — something I also emphatically deny); or else someone has stolen my identity and has used it in the course of “serial harassment,” a crime in California.
Therefore it follows that both Frey and the supposed victim are potentially protecting an identity thief in the commission of his crime against me. I have asked DDA Frey for the contact information of the attorney who supposedly sent me the cease and desist order. I also called for the letter to be re-sent to the email address posted on my contact page; and I have tried to get information from Frey about how the original order was sent and to where it was sent, because either piece of information could potentially help determine the origin of this serial harassment, and perhaps lead to the apprehension of an identity thief and serial harasser whom Frey himself has described as “unhinged.”
As many of you know, Deb Frisch, who has long sought to injure me and my family, has many times in the past launched email attacks — and just recently was arrested in Lane County OR for impersonating an Oregon state official via email. Of course, my not having the dates and times of the harassing emails I supposedly sent to Frey’s acquaintance makes it difficult for me to check those dates and times against Frisch’s incarceration schedule.
DDA Frey has access to that information but will not release it. Though I have asked repeatedly.
Question: as an officer of the court, is DDA Frey not ethically bound to release information he now knows was used in the course of a crime? Should a DDA be potentially protecting a cyber-criminal and stalker simply because he was quick to make unfounded accusations against me, and doesn’t wish to have to walk back those accusations?
Anyone? Because I’m not a lawyer. Hell, I didn’t even know the difference between a cease and desist order and a cease and desist letter until just yesterday. If you can believe that.
Patrick and company:
I should remind you that if Jeff did in fact e-mail some nastygrams, he is far more likely to cop to it and then explain why the recipient deserved said nastygrams than to deny having sent them at all.
Furthermore, when Jeff Goldstein crosses the road, no one questions his motives. And he can divide by zero.
I have a suggestion. Perhaps if Frey and Mr. X do not want to disclose the information to Jeff themselves, perhaps it would serve them to release the information to a disinterested third party? I’d gladly volunteer to get the information needed to Jeff that protects the identity of Mr. X but still gives Jeff the information necessary to confirm or deny emails sent from his account.
I can only multiply by zero. I once tried to divide by zero, and as a result woke up 3 days later in a seedy Vegas hotel. Lying in a pile of my own sick, sans pants.
Never again.
Full disclosure: the sick could have been the hookers. hard to say.
release the information to a disinterested third party
If it were anyone but Frey, I’d agree that this is a good solution, but all that will do is provide Frey with another person to accuse of lying and dissembling.
Did you witness the previous go-arounds between Jeff and Frey? Including the stuff that took place on other blogs? Frey engages in the Lilliputian method of argumentation: splitting tiny little hairs, arguing semantics, digressing into blind alleyways, and repeatedly looping back to who said what and when until all his tiny little threads are wrapped around the axles, everything grinds to a halt, and he declares victory.
This isn’t about what’s true: it’s about Frey’s personality disorder. Jeff “wronged” him once and therefore he’s justified in destroying Jeff to protect himself.
I would just like to suggest that you go easy on Mr. X. He has already been through serial harrassment and pestering him too much is just going to open that all up again. Especially since he thinks you did it. If the emails and letters do exist, then he truly is a victim in all this. Just remember that. You know what it’s like, and what it did to your household.
Thankfully, DDA Patric Frey has already decided to be his shield. So in the intrests of not causing any further grief to Mr. X, I’m sure Frey would gladly be an intermediary. That would be the honourable thing, wouldn’t it Mr. Frey?
You have no need to talk to Mr. X directly, his lawyer can do that. That’s what they’re there for. Mr. X never needs to talk to you.
This isn’t about what’s true: it’s about Frey’s personality disorder.
I just said something very similar on the other thread. Only with more words and some cussing.
No, I missed all that good stuff, probably being involved in blogsquabbling myself. But my major concern is ensuring that there is fair treatment here. I’m a compulsive troubleshooter, so finding solutions to issues is just something I’m willing do.
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/17/031711-news-hillary-2-2/
In all this Patterico stuff and with the crisis in Japan, this is interesting.
Here’s the deal, and I’m going to regret this. If the letters to Mr. Goldstein exist, which letters say, “Stop being bad, or else,” there has to be something behind the “or else,” i.e. civil or criminal cause of action. Given that we’re talking about speech issues, the possibilities are very few and usually not worth it.
Let me put this way, I wouldn’t do it even for a close friend because the liklihood of success is minimal.
Second, what sort of lawyer who knows the difference between crap and apple butter sends a letter without sending it certified to have proof that it was either received or refused by the recipient or undeliverable because of bad address. Frey’s friend’s lawyer should have proof of one of those things, or s/he’s an idiot.
This whole thing demonstrates to me that the probability of accuracy in Frey’s story is minimal and get’s closer to zero every time he posts something.
And yes, I’m a lawyer.
Regards.
“And yes, I’m a lawyer.”
oh noooes
I just sent this following query to the LA County DA’s office:
Hello —
One of the Deputy District Attorneys in LA County has published on his website accusations that I have committed cyber crimes and am engaging in serial harassment of a third party of his acquaintance. I have told him I did no such thing, and that if indeed such a crime is being committed and is being attributed to me, somebody is using my name and identity to commit the crime. The DDA has said (again, publicly on his web site) that I was sent a cease and desist letter. I never received one by way of mail or email, and because the DDA won’t tell me either the address to which the cease and desist letter was supposedly sent or even the name of the attorney who sent it, I have no way of knowing if there is an active cease and desist letter out there directed against me that could be turned into a summary judgment against me should the identity thief in question continue the harassment.
My question is, I guess, is if the DDA is in receipt of information that can stop a crime issued in my name but not being committed by me, is he under any legal or ethical obligation to release that information, either to me or to the police?
Thank you for your time,
JG
We’ll see if I get a reply. I’m also going to contact Equifax, et al., and have them put a fraud watch on my identity.
If what Frey says is true and someone out there is receiving harassing emails from someone using my name, I have to protect myself.
Could be identity theft, someone with a grudge setting up an account in your name. Could also be that someone is able to get into your e-mail system.
I once received an e-mail from myself.
I get those all the time. And the subject is always erectile dysfunction medication. And yesterday, I was getting a lot of “mail delivery subsystem : returned mail.” I thought that kind of thing was the result of getting put on some list?
Jeff Goldstein doesn’t cross roads.
Roads cross him…
Once!
Here’s the automated reply from LA County:
I’m thinking Patterico really stepped on his dick this time…
Jeff, I bet Levin can score you a deal with Lifelock too.
I’m thinking Patterico really stepped on his dick this time…
So what you’re saying is Patterico literally has to look up at Dorf?
Since it involves one of their employees, maybe send a copy to internal affairs? If there is such a thing at the DAs office.
i’d file a foia on patty and his dept.
Just filled out the fraud alert at the credit reporting agencies.
the foia might request his access to patterico.com thru gov’t computers
LB
There is no “internal affairs” in DA office. A query to the State Bar Association might be in order.
http://www.calbar.ca.gov/
I don’t need to do any of that. But I’ll be goddamned if I’m gonna let myself get labeled a serial harasser or cyber-stalker, particularly by a DDA in a state where such is considered a crime.
Sign up for one of the credit shield services, Jeff. Doesn’t cost much and can be very beneficial. When my wife died I was advised to do this as there are ghouls out there that troll obits looking for the recently departed whose IDs are easy to steal. Sure enough one tried. I got an alert and was able to stop it.
Anyway, it might save you some heartburn down the road.
I gotta say how utterly depressing this is … as much as a pedantic a**hole Pat is, I figured he wouldn’t cross the line into such transparent, unethical behavior. I thought his obviously fragile ego just wouldn’t allow him to leave any opening to besmirch his “professional” persona.
It’s like finding out he was caught shoplifting and him arguing that he understood the store clerk was just allowing him to “borrow” the stuff. Either he really believes it or he is brazenly lying — and either way it shows him to be of very low character.
Ick ick ick.
I don’t think Jeff is the victim of identity theft here. It’s just a guess on my part, but the more I mull it over, the more it strikes me as too elaborate.
It’s much more straightforward if Rénaud has either been misinformed by his source (whether that source is the purported “victim” or the “victim’s” lawyer) or manufactured the whole thing.
Earnst, I agree.
Again, if this was a case of identity theft, the perpetrator was pretty damn clever. Picking this particular mysterious friend of a DDA that has a vendetta against Jeff to send the emails to. Diabolical.
And Frey then ‘letting it slip’, oops, can’t say anymore about it.
I smell horseshit.
Sorry, Ernst.
oh i’d foia it with a cc: to patty as a shot over the bow(us mail reg. & cert.mail). cheap and lets others know there is a problem.
I’m thinking Patterico really stepped on his dick this time…
Respectfully, LB,
You’re suggesting an impossiblity.
*blush*
It was just a figure of speech…
thanks for what you do. between this and the althouse/meade threats today i see the zombies are out in force.
Well, at least you didn’t call me Earnestine!
An idea I’ve been mulling for a couple of days now is that maybe, just maybe Rénaud is talking about a communiqué Jeff recieved from a certain Ryan K. Biteley requesting that Jeff cease and desist from including the good professor’s name on his website. Unfortunately, I can’t make the rest of the pieces fit. Maybe though that’s because the mirror of Rénaud’s mind is cracked.
What’s foia?
OT: My first ever attempts on a v-bar pull (essentially, a 2″ thick metal bar standing vertically and loaded with plates), lifted with one hand in deadlift fashion by gripping the vertical bar at the top: pulled close to 190. Failed at 210 — though on that attempt the weights were stacked in such a way that I couldn’t get a full handle on the bar (I ran out of room to grab it). Will try later with a taller loading pin. I want to hit 300 by the end of the year.
Freedom of Information Act
I hate to piss on the fire here, but I see more tort than crime as far as the harassment is concerned?. Also bullshit. Lots and lots of bullshit. Even if it were real, it would be bullshit is the kind of bullshit we’re talking about here.
Has Frey said he’s seen or heard the content of this supposed harassment?
Yeah Ernst, BumperStickerist said the same a few days ago. Thing is, Frey characterized emails so vile and persistent that legal action had to be taken.
Maybe Patterico just heard about the Ryan K. Biteley thing, and made up a nice little story for himself. Then forgot it was just a fantasy.
Who knows what’s in the hearts of men,
sloshing around in all that whiskey?
Hey, gimme that ? back!
You are a freak.
EVIDENCE!!!!!
Oh. foia, DUH.
Thanks.
I got a couple of emails addressed from Monsterette 2 the other day, but I could tell by the wording of the text that she did not write them. I replied to her that she either has a virus on her computer, or someone has stolen her password (and effectively, her identity) on the mail server.
This is the second time something like that has happened, and she’s not what you’d call a dummy when it comes to computers.
Pablo —
My wife (who vids me) is out of town until tomorrow. If I can recover and pull again tonight I’ll try to get vid by maybe propping the camera up against something. I’m supposed to work my hands tonight anyway, but I’ve been swinging these all day (6″ globe micro-loaded to about 13lbs): http://www.strongergrip.com/products/Thick-Handle-Grip-Clubs-.html
So I’m a bit spent.
Just so you know, V-bar pulls have to get at least 2″ off the ground.
Jeff:
IT guy with ~ 15 years of experience speaking here. What you’ll want to request is the incriminating email messages *with fully intact headers plus the timestamps of each message*. Any email tech worth their salt will be able to help you out.
If you receive such information, I’d be happy to help you go through them and explain where each message originated.
The From: portion of any email is trivially easy to fake. The trail of IP addresses which each message leaves behind, however, is close to impossible.
Seriously, I’ll walk you through whatever you need.
That was only a matter of time, wasn’t it?
He hasn’t said. But here’s what we know: he claims he talked to the victim on the phone and via email. Strangely, the victim didn’t forward Frey an example of my vile emails, and evidently Frey didn’t ask to see one. We know this because he’s said he never saw any of the emails or the cease and desist letter.
And yet he described the emails — which he hadn’t seen, and which he hasn’t cited specifics about — as “unhinged”, “vile”, “serially harassing,” and so on. Without ever having seen them I say!
Thanks zamoose. Tell me, if someone had several old emails of mine, might he be able to use info from those to fake things?
Absolutely. I could send you an email claiming to be from sjobs@apple.com and if you didn’t know where to look, you might well think Steve-o sent you a personal email.
Hmm.
Perhaps the unnamed victim is being Frisched.
Can’t put it past her.
Jeff, that lift is pretty damned awesome. I’m impressed. Also, I think I’ll try to stay on your good side.
I can shrug 100 lb dumbbells, and that is probably close to my grip limit. Plus, the “bar” is smaller and therefore easier to grip. When I used to shrug more with a straight bar, many moons ago, I used leather wrist straps because my grip was not up to par.
That’s my gut sense too. Too bad Frey won’t say what the time frames were for the emails. Jeff wants to check them against her incarseration times.
Zamoose is correct. The forensic stuff is pretty easy to do if you have the IT expert to do it. That’s how the feds catch purveyors of nastiness. The difficulty is–as ADA Frey well knows–absent a lawsuit, there’s no way to compel him to release the mails or the information.
Ah, incarceration. Me no spell good.
I do my shrugs on a trap bar with a pair of Fat Gripz added. If you want to get strong, get a pair of those things. They turn standard bars into thick bars, easy on easy off. Best $40 I ever spent.
Ahem… totally OT … but I just found out I’m going to be a grandma again!
(very large grin)
Congrats, Darleen!
Thanks, boss. :-)
Note to The Monster:
Likely your Monsterette was not actually compromised. A common spammer/virus purveyor tactic is to harvest known-good email addresses off of forums, user profiles, etc. and send out messages with the From: spoofed to look like it came from said email addresses. (If you’ve ever gotten rejection/bounce messages for email that you’re certain you’ve never sent, it’s likely that spammers were doing the same thing with your email address.)
At this point, unfortunately, such messages are essentially the background radiation of the Internet. Not much to be done about it until the major ISPs and OS vendors get serious about such efforts as DNSSEC and explicit mail host reverse look-ups.
If anyone else feels like they need some ‘splainin’ on this issue, feel free to let me know.
Jeff, dude, you’re dealing with government employees. I’ve been doing this for years and trust me, use simple declarative sentences and no more than two sentences to a paragraph. Use lots of bullet points. Always remember that their reading is at about a third-grade level, and that includes their legal staff. Hitting them with stuff like this just totally baffles them..
You’re probably right, Swen.
If the CA DA 2010 election went ‘against’ him, Frey might find himself ‘promoted’ to one of the juvenile courts. It’s what they call ‘freeway therapy’, for obnoxious sorts who find themselves without high-level support. AKA career-killing dead-end job. But it seems his career is pretty much dead-ended as is, given the g00gle results.
Huh huh huh you said “Frey” and “Ethical” in the same sentence huh huh huh…
I am well aware of the technique, but that’s not what happened. The headers are clear that the email legitimately came to Gmail from Hotmail. Here’s one that came tonight:
I did my own reverse DNS to confirm what the SPF is saying:
So whoever got Hotmail to send this knows Monsterette 2’s password to that account, or they’ve compromised Hotmail itself.
Congratulations Darleen. Being a grandparent is your reward for raising children.
If you go over there, Dustin is starting to recognize that Patterico fucked up. They are still with the fiction of the imaginary friend and the imaginary attorney, but even his sycophants recognize it does not add up. Of course, not like they care that much. They justify it by claiming Jeff is worse. It is more the embarassment of being caught:
[sort of a pathetic little version of Dennis Hopper’s rant about Kurtz in Apocalypse Now]
[Denial is not just a river in Egypt]
No, moron, he spins his words after the fact in whatever way he can to make himself look better, given the poor circumstances he now finds himself in; and to persuade whatever rubes he has left in his fold to not seek what is their nature to seek: the truth. Frey’s acting like a typical liar who is caught in a lie. It only gets worse for him, not better, if he’s kept under pressure.
Take off your blinders, Dustin, Eric &c., and try this man as if he were a stranger. Put him on the stand, cross-examine him. Follow my lead: WHO is this ‘client’, WHO is the ‘friendly lawyer’, WHERE are the emails, WHERE is the C&D letter, WHAT ARE PAT’S MOTIVES FOR HIS STRANGE BEHAVIORS for going on two years now?
The (lack of) evidence belies your assertion. Honesty is a quality that deteriorates if it’s not used. And, as I pointed out, District Attorney Investigators can and do lie unless they’re under oath (and even under oath, unless you ask direct questions and demand direct answers they will spin, spin, spin); Frey isn’t under oath; he’s using the tools of his trade to poke at JeffG. That hardly seems fair, and I don’t care for it.
Seek direct answers from Frey. Judge his ‘honesty’ from those answers. Demand evidence that’s verifiable. Remember the ‘value’ of character witnesses (HA!). All of you sycophants might personally be better off for applying a bit of due diligence.
Monster:
You’re spot-on. Has your konsterette changed her password on Hotmail and on any other sites she may use the same password on? Has she used any non-https sites at an open wifi access point recently? There’s always the possibility she was Firesheep’d.
Jeff:
Get us info similar to what Monster supplied above and we can make something of it.
Gmail and Yahoo were both hacked earlier in the year. Passwords were compromised, both my gmail and yahoo accounts were used to send Spam to my contact list. Google had actually sent out a notice to change your password, that I had ignored. I would assume hotmail has the same bot issue. Change your password, use a secure connection to webmail and a third party address book (keep your contacts seperate from your email) it’ll stop.
Most of that spam comes from china or korea and the bots that create it usually leave artifacts. This, BTW, was a bad week for spam, one of the bigger bots was shut down. Doesn’t mean that a certain californian isn’t lying and doubling down like a kid caught with a doobie in his locker.
“Joe posted on 3/17 @ 4:56 pm
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/03/17/031711-news-hillary-2-2/
In all this Patterico stuff and with the crisis in Japan, this is interesting.”
I never in a million years would have guessed that I could ever have sympathy for Hillary, but Obama has finally pushed me into this radical (for me) train of thought.
So let me get this straight: Frey publicly posted lies about me accusing me of a crime, the cover-up of a crime, and the destruction of evidence of a crime; I immediately responded that the accusations were false and demanded the evidence be released; no evidence has been provided, and the name of my supposed victim and his attorney are being kept from me, ostensibly to “protect” them, even though to buy their story I must of necessity already know who they are; Frey hasn’t retracted his false accusations despite not providing evidence, or even the proof that a victim exists; and even if we allow that someone somewhere received harassing emails signed by “me” — but not sent by me — Frey is more than happy to allow the identity theft against me to continue, and is now actively helping the perpetrator of the crime by withholding information now that he knows that it is not I who is the criminal.
— And this to Dustin is honorable and honest.
Man. That’s just fucking sad.
Of course, Dustin has said I deleted something he sent me once about my CV when I’ve never had my CV on the website; I’ve had the same “about” page for years. So he’s not to be trusted anyway, despite his attempt to talk in the soothing tones of the sober moderate. Fuck Dustin.
Oh. Just to update you all: still no cease and desist letter, despite my having asked that it be resent. Why hasn’t it been resent?
Because either the first one never existed, or else it was sent to someone else pretending to be me. And if as Frey continues to maintain he believes it was sent out, and he (and his victim, and his victim’s attorney) are all refusing to say where they sent it, they are each perforce aiding in the cover-up of a crime against me.
Ethics!
Ethics!
– And this to Dustin is honorable and honest.
Hell no. Deluded… maybe. He thinks Patterico is honest (although he is starting to question it).
Jeff,
My wife is a legal secretary and I asked her about the difference between a cease and desist letter versus a cease and desist order.
According to her, a anyone can write a cease and desist letter. Basically, a cease and desist letter contains the threat of a cease and desist order. Cease and desist orders come from the court and there’s a whole legal process involved.
Not so with cease and desist letters.
Why someone would send a cease and desist letter instead of a cease and desist order if they’re being harassed and stalked to the point of being frightened strikes me as rather bizarre, to say the least.
Frey knows very well the difference between a letter and order. If Frey is claiming a cease and desist letter was sent in this case, then Frey should be smart enough to realize the people claiming harassment are not serious, at best.
Darleen, congratulations on the new grandkid.
I have fun laughing at my daughter when she’s dealing with her kids. I keep telling her it’s payback.
The irony here? Just do a simple Googling of patterico ip address. Click any of those first few hits.
Old Patsy was the leading voice and investigator in outing Glenn Greenwald and Mike Hiltzik for their sock puppetry. He knows exactly how to look for IP addresses on incriminating comments and how to verify a chain of evidence when it comes to email.
Let that sink in a bit, in light of the current circumstances.
See also:
Patterico’s Frisching and Rooting out “Ellie Light” astroturfing.
He knows how to do his homework on this precise issue. Knows it cold. And yet he dissembles and refuses to be up front.
Dude is shameless. And lying.
I’d forgotten that, zamoose. I think that needs its own posting later today. You mind?
Of course, that he knows how to find this stuff means he might just know how to fake it, as well. That worries me. For very very obvious reasons.
On the plus side, though, I’ve had a number of experts on spotting fakes contact me over this. So there’s that.
Post away!
In re: faking it, he’d better have some friends at every single ISP through which your supposed email messages bounced, ready and willing to alter the mail log records in order to fabricate evidence for what amounts to (at this point) an inter-blog spat. He’d be inducing third parties to potentially commit acts in violation of several Federal telecomm laws in order to point the finger of blame at you. That’s a high bar for anyone, let alone an DDA, to clear.
Well, I don’t mean to reply to myself here, but I’m not trying to minimize the character assassination he’s attempting on you, Jeff, merely that, from his perspective, he’s engaged in a blog spat while you are on the end of some seriously invidious insinuations.
Which would seem to argue against the notion that he has made this thing up out of whole cloth — unless of course he were to do something stupid like not anticipate a denial from the accused.
And of course there’s no way on earth that could happen.
Update 3: still no cease and desist letter received.
Again: I have not seen Patrick Frey bugger his neighbor’s dog, but I have it on good authority from a very good friend whom I trust implicitly that he has, on several occasions, done just that. Also, that he’s been sent officious-sounding letters imploring him to stop.
Any response to the query of the DAs office, Jeff?
Nope. Not a peep.
Figures. They’re cowering under their desks hiding from the noo-kle-ar fallout from Japan.
Got the Fat Gripz on order right now. They’re selling at a factory-direct discount for $29 but they are on backorder so I have to wait a while to get them. I’ve been having hand issues on some exercises and I hope they help with that. Plus, my grip is quite sad.
Using mine right now.
I have 3 pairs. Could probably use another one if they’re going for $29…
Update: no letter received. Also, got a reply from the LA County DA’s office:
Wheee…
Depends.
Some assembly required.
HA! There is an internal affairs!
I don’t read W.E.B. Griffin for nothing.
[…] ** Posted by Jeff G. @ 5:34 pm Comments (8) | Trackback […]
Fat Gripz
Got one on my unit right now.
Slides right off, and on, and off,…..
Anyway.
This whole thing smells like Deb.
Or tuna.
Whatever
Identity theft?…
[Source: protein wisdom] quoted: and I have tried to get information from Frey about how the original order was sent and to where it was sent, because either piece of information could potentially help determine the origin of this serial harassment, an…
Something tells me Frey and ethics parted ways a long ago.
[…] No retraction. No apology. And that’s simply unacceptable. […]