Compulsory civil service

	Return to Protein Wisdom homepage « Wanted: Men’s haircut suggestions \| Home \| “Calif. Speaker’s solution for state deficit: U.S. taxpayers chip in billions” » November 12, 2008 Compulsory civil service Well, then. It looks like they may actually be serious about this. Let’s call this what it is: a state-sanctioned confiscation of liberty that is being justified, through some Orwellian calculus, in the name of “what it means to be an American.” Which of course immediately should put one in mind of Lyndon Johnson, I’m told. (h/t Geoff B) More here and here. Posted by Jeff G. @ 11:58 pm Comments (464) \| Trackback 464 Comments ::: Post a comment » Comment by lee on 11/13 @ 12:09 am # Oh. I feel better <now… There’s nothing to worry about. Circle of love. I wish I knew one of those Russians anthems, I feeling singing something melancholy. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 12:09 am # conjunction function-wheres the fire extinguisher Comment by baxtrice on 11/13 @ 12:09 am # Does this mean I get to burn my “draft” card and speak truth to power? Man, I’ve always wanted to do that! Comment by lee on 11/13 @ 12:15 am # Edit mess up. feel like, not feeling. I need to go to bed I think. I hope I don’t dream about government obligation labor and jumping jacks. That wouldn’t be very restfull. Comment by peter jackson on 11/13 @ 12:15 am # I’ll send my children abroad first. I fucking swear. Comment by Bob Reed on 11/13 @ 12:22 am # It’ll be interesting to see how they work this… I mean, it’ll require congressional legislation, tight..? And I wonder what all of the young-uns who voted for O! will take to this when they find out it is volunteer..? Not to mention what all of the elders think about a group of ideological zealot’s running around, possibly armed; the O!-force to root out all the wasters, haters, polluters, and…RAAAAAAACISTS! Just like the neighborhood busy-body snitch squads that existed in the USSR in the bad old days; and still do in Cuba… Service to others was always optional in the America of the Constitution; you were a good American by obeying the law, doing your best to excel, and serving your country in her hours of need… I guess that once again we’re being supplied a new interpretation of our countries need… Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:26 am # I hope they’ll be poetry workshops because after long days of raining pain on miscreants I like to work through the swelling in my knuckles by penning flowing stanzas. Sounds like a plan. I’m in. Comment by Challeron on 11/13 @ 12:34 am # Oh, I’ll be happy to greet the swarms of Singing ~~Hitler~~ Obama Youth as they come to take me to the Re-Education Camp — I may even answer the door in my skivvies — but the “forty” in my hand won’t be a bottle…. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 12:36 am # No. Comment by Challeron on 11/13 @ 12:36 am # (… Why, yes, I do have a Dremel; why do you ask?…) Comment by Mike LaRoche on 11/13 @ 12:37 am # Hell no! Comment by lee on 11/13 @ 12:43 am # I’m thinking of hiring one of those illegals to do the mandatory civil obligation I don’t want to do. Comment by The details on 11/13 @ 12:46 am # They changed change.gov, but at PDF at BHO’s main site still has “All students in grant recipient districts will be expected to engage in some form of community service.” Details at my name’s link, and note that all my pre-election attempts to draw attention to BHO’s outreach to pre-teens failed. Until people learn how to do things the right way, attempts to draw attention to this aren’t going to fare much better. Another idea I’ve been pushing for almost two years is to ask BHO questions on video for Youtube, and not only has that not gone anywhere it’s been shot down in comments at this site. You have to learn to take things to the next step and come up with actual plans. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:51 am # If a civilian defence force enters a region where the occupants try and resist a routine counterfeit Bible confiscation sweep, I wonder if the civil universality unit will be able to use powerful chemical castration bombs on the clinging miscreants. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 12:51 am # i know editing/media but that was spooky don’t blame me- i voted for mcgiver[mass. bumper sticker after nixon] 52- 48 i like our odds Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 12:55 am # Fascism’s just another word for nothing left to lose I think. Comment by B Moe on 11/13 @ 12:58 am # When I was a kid I can remember thinking the third amendment was just the silliest fucking thing I had ever read. Now I mostly just think we are fucked. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 1:05 am # oh but no. Against all advice of history the fascists want to poke their dirty socialist little heads out of their holes here and now in my little country? Hah. Equal and opposite reaction? Not even. It’s them what are fucked I think. Comment by Tman on 11/13 @ 1:05 am # I can’t even begin to imagine the knots that thor twists himself in trying to defend garbage like this. Don’t worry Obama fans, we’ve saved you a seat on the bandwagon. Some of you are smarter than this, and you’ll figure it out eventually. The rest won’t need to be persuaded. The numbers will speak for themselves. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 1:08 am # smells worse than a janet joplin cunt fart yeah i said it Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 1:11 am # Dammit, Janet! Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 1:11 am # Ah, yes, America was built by the rugged individualist who didn’t owe anything to anybody, least of all his neighbors or his community…. Do you want to take a guess about what happened to the pioneer who didn’t join his neighbors in the “barn raising” or when the fort was being built or participate in the local defense patrols when the community was threatened with attack, etc.? Yeah, there were a lot of rugged individualists on the American frontier who lost their lives and their scalps or discovered that no one was willing to help them put out a fire or put up a new barn, etc. when they needed help. The notion that Liberty means that a person doesn’t owe anything to his community or country or those around him would have been anathema to those men who founded the United States and were quite familiar with the Enlightenment concept of “The Social Contract”. No one had to require George Washington, the richest man in the colonies, to risk all that he had, including his life, for his country. No one had to force him to leave his plantation and come out of retirement to lead his new nation. He did it because he understood it to be his DUTY. Washington and those who founded and created this country understood that they had a duty to serve their communities and country. And, they accepted that as a given. Even the most celebrated of America’s rugged individualists, like Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, Kit Carson, etc., did not have to be told that they had a duty to help their neighbors and serve their community. The idea that America was built by rugged individualists who didn’t owe anything to the community or country or needed only to serve at their own convience or whim is a myth. It is a myth that has been fostered by those too lazy, selfish, egotistical, self-centered and/or greedy to be willing to acknowledge the existence of a social contract or the duties that come with being a member of a community. I dare say that, while they would be proud of its wealth and power, those who founded and built the United States would be greatly disappointed by the fact that many of its current citizens actually believe that Liberty and Freedom mean that they do not have a duty to give their time and efforts to help their neighbors and serve their community and country. I believe that they would be appalled by that attitude. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 1:13 am # Someone has his little heart set on the special armband I think. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 1:16 am # Baracky doesn’t get to tell me what my duty is. I piss on his head. Comment by The details on 11/13 @ 1:17 am # Neil Masters: on the frontier, people were able to join loss confederations and weren’t required to, for instance, work for ACORN no matter where they lived. Nowadays, we also have other ways for people to fulfill the social contract, such as through taxes. I see where this thread is going, but if anyone wants to actually do something, come up with a plan. Somehow I don’t think that’s going to happen. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 1:18 am # My plan is I will piss on Baracky’s head. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 1:25 am # What if Barack whips out an umbrella like the one the Joker used against Batman? Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 1:25 am # voice-over by kris kristofferson security-help the poor people angles[helps angels] sanitation-spike lee-poop the right thing bread-david gergen puppet-head division circus-french canadiens in tights yoga freaks now-i’m just silly thank u jeff Comment by Challeron on 11/13 @ 1:26 am # (sigh) Details, how exactly do you propose to get The O! to answer the “tough questions” for a YouTube video when the cream[iest] of the Professional Mass Market Media can’t do it? Jeezuz, fella, didn’t you pay ANY attention to what happened to Joe The Plumber?… Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:29 am # I think that Neil guy might be serious. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 1:30 am # i don’t usually crow but go to revive conservative thread it’s a 444 nite Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:32 am # I give my old jeans to Goodwill. Does that count? Because I can up that to old jeans and maybe a couple henleys and a few cans of those Bush’s grilling beans if that will please the social contract guarders like George Washington and Daniel Boone and Neil. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 1:33 am # Minority Death Match: Homos versus the Mormons. You can’t make this shit up. Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:34 am # If I watch Abbott and Costello meet Captain Kidd and laugh extra hard, doesn’t that, like, send good vibes out into the universe? Because if it does, I’ve done my part, motherfuckers. Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 1:34 am # The Details: Depending on where one lived (ie Massachusetts Bay), the community could be quite strict in enforcing its requirements. And, while it is true that one could move even to the very edge of the frontier and join or leave a loose confederation of others there was still an understanding that one had a duty to help those within those confederations as long as one was a member. And, everyone paid taxes back then, too. The American Revolution wasn’t about whether to pay taxes or not pay taxes, it was about having a direct say in what and how much those taxes would be. The “Whiskey Rebellion” showed that the American government was just as willing to use force to insure that the taxes it levied would be paid as the British had been. Anyone who is concerned about a fascistic regime being established in the US by the left should Google “Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler”. Laugh at his name if you will, but Gen. Butler was one of only two men to be a two-time recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor. He also foiled a right-wing plot to overthrow FDR and establish a fascist regime modeled on Hitler’s Germany. Those on the right have far more money and guns than those on the left and have far more potential ability to violently overthrow the government and establish a fascist/totalitarian regime. Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:37 am # Hey, kid! Grab that pooper scooper in the garage there and clean up my back yard. Then mow the thing. And no lip. DANIEL BOONE WOULDA DONE IT! Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:39 am # I think this Neil guy is serious. Hey, Neil? Howsabout making me 50 hours worth of fucking sandwiches. DO YOUR CIVIC DUTY! AND MY DISHES! Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 1:40 am # Amendment XII of the US Constitution: “1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.” Might help to read the Constitution from time to time. Ah, yes. The “right” has the guns, but yet it’s usually the “left” that comes up with all these schemes that require massive action by the federal government… and tends to seek to severely restrict or eliminate gun ownership. Gosh, I wonder why? Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:41 am # By the way, was that plot before or after the internment camps? For my timeline, you see. I do it with those little sticky stars and construction paper. Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:43 am # G’night, all. Neil? When you’re finished, turn off the lights, please. FOR FREEDOM! Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 1:52 am # Hey Jeff G.: Did you know that Boone was renowned for being such a great hunter that he provided meat for the entire Boonesborough community? He and about two dozen other men were captured by the British and Indians during the American Revolution while working together at a salt spring to make salt for the entire community. And, yeah, if you were elderly or disabled, Boone probably would have grabbed his son and mowed your lawn for you. Read some of Boone’s biographies or Allan W. Eckert’s “The Court-Martial of Daniel Boone”, which is based on the court records of his trial before you mock something that you obviously don’t know very much about. Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 1:56 am # Neil is the one who helps make the omelets. Somebody has to crack those eggs. Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 1:58 am # Oh, I know quite a bit, Neil. Like, for instance, that compulsory service and charity, or a sense of duty, are different things. Whereas you? Not so much. Comment by Hvy Mtl Hntr on 11/13 @ 1:58 am # Hey Barack- Fuck You. I gave BEFORE you were proud to be an American. Comment by The details on 11/13 @ 1:59 am # Challeron: sigh, right back at ya. If people are afraid to ask pols real questions, then it’s already too late, right? And, why would various commenters keep trying to throw water on attempts to hold pols accountable? On a practical note, JTP doesn’t appear to have made out too bad, and there are plenty of outstanding citizens who withstand a similar treatment. And, if you’re afraid of BHO, how about the ACLU? Grab a video camera, go to one of their many meetings, and ask one of those questions. Just make sure to click the first link at that link so you understand what the questions are about. Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 2:01 am # “Knell to Master” fits. Comment by Steve B on 11/13 @ 2:03 am # Me, I’m wondering why we need a civil defense service. Against what are we defending? As well funded as the military? Isn’t that called the National Guard? the Police? EMS? There is only one reason you need an organized civilian “militia” made up primarily of young, energetic, and quite impressionable youth. Remember towards the end of “The Sound of Music?” All the eager young men in their bright new uniforms, “watching” for “criminal” elements, as in, those who won’t get on board with the program? You can invoke Godwin’s law all you want, but there’s a reason the Brown Shirt analogy keeps popping up. Because it looks and sounds exactfuckingly the same. Does anyone really believe that this will be a domestic peace corps, going around cleaning up graffiti and picking up trash? Then why is it called a “defense” force? It just fits all too neatly into this grand new socialist paradigm B.O. is preaching. It’s in the freakin’ manual. Get the youth first. 1960’s ringing any bells? Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 2:03 am # An idea, the details: make asking pols real questions part of the compulsory civil service work! Bam! Two birds, one stone — and college chicks compelled by the state to wash my car. O! Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 2:05 am # Captain Ed and Patterico are going to bitch slap you for that, Steve B. But pleasantly. Then after? Milk and cookies! Comment by dicentra on 11/13 @ 2:17 am # The notion that Liberty means that a person doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t owe anything to his community or country or those around him would have been anathema to those men who founded the United States and were quite familiar with the Enlightenment concept of Ã¢â‚¬Å“The Social ContractÃ¢â‚¬Â. No one had to require George Washington, the richest man in the colonies, to risk all that he had, including his life, for his country. No one had to force him Neil. Look at the two bolded parts. Notice how they are conceptually related. As it turns out, the tension between individual liberty and social obligation is eternal and irreconcilable because the two are… …wait for it… mutually exclusive and at the same time good things in themselves. There’s lots of stuff like that in the world: you’ve got two opposing principles that exclude each other, but no sane person would exclude them both. But that’s really not the issue here, Neil. The issue is whether the gubmint has the right to compel us to be “good,” whether we want to or not. Coersion is absolutely opposed to liberty Ã¢â‚¬â€ they stand opposite one another not as mutually exclusive goods but as one good and one evil. Got it? Comment by dicentra on 11/13 @ 2:17 am # Or was my use of the plain meaning of words too nuanced for you? Comment by Steve B on 11/13 @ 2:27 am # Not milk. Koooooool-aid. But, but, don’t you care about the {{insert environment, children, global warming}}?! Marginalizing dissent by suggesting that failure to get on board is somehow unpatriotic? I thought that was strictly the purview of the VRWC? The consensus process is a beautiful thing. Building strong communities by building conformity. I’m sensing T-shirts, bumperstickers, and maybe convenient subdermal microchips. You know, for your own protection. Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 2:28 am # Jeff G: I am very serious. And, FYI, I have already done more than 50 hours of community service, having spent one entire year tutoring kids living in a federal housing project in English and another, similarly unpaid, year and a half working in group homes for mentally retarded and emotionally disturbed adults as part of an internship. I’m not someone who just “talks the talk”, I’ve “walked the walk” and paid my dues. Instead of mocking people for helping others, you would get up from your keyboard and actually go out and seriously try to help those who are less fortunate than yourself, you just might learn something about life and yourself that you could never learn otherwise. I know that I did. And, I believe that it has made me a better person, husband, etc. I highly recommend the experience. And, I’d prefer to leave the lights on. It makes it easier to see what’s going on. Patrick Chester: The XII Amendment did not prevent the government from instituting a draft. Considering that we are presently fighting two wars and that our military is over-stretched, it can be argued that some form of a draft that would assist with Homeland Security, border security and help relieve the strain on the military (by bringing in new recruits) might be beneficial. Asking students to work in the community in exchange for financial aid for their college tuition also can hardly be considered unreasonable. I am not one who is in favor of taking guns away from law-abiding citizens. I do, however, believe that it should be possible to come up with reasonable ways to keep guns, especially high-powered automatic weapons, out of the hands of criminals, street gangs and those who are known to be mentally unstable without threatening or impinging on the rights of the rest of law-abiding society to own guns and use them in a lawful manner (including hunting, target shooting and self-defense). It makes no sense to me to take guns away from our law-abiding citizens when criminals seem to be always able to find a way to get them. But, there also has to be a way that we can all agree on to make it a lot harder for the criminals, gangs and mentally unbalanced to obtain guns. If I have to deal with a thug, I’d much rather deal with one who doesn’t have a gun than one who does–particularly if I, as a law-abiding citizen, have a gun and am allowed to use it to defend myself from the thug! But, it is up to us, as a nation of reasonable people, to find a way to do that. Comment by Christoph on 11/13 @ 2:33 am # But — Patterico said Obama is a good man. And Ed Morrissey isn’t a journalistic coward who called us deranged for asking what he asked, then refused to explain the difference between his two positions. So really. $500 billion/year Civilian National Defense Force with “as strong and powerful” as the U.S. military? Compulsory Obama Youth indoctrination (the ultimate “get out the vote plan”, no?). Nothing to worry about. Calm down ODS sufferers. Trust Obama. As they say, “It could never happen here.” Because it couldn’t. There. That was a convincing argument; I even used italics. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 2:33 am # Hooray! A mere 3 months and no one will ever have to do any more Good Deeds! I just can’t imagine why I ever did any. But I sure would like to get me one of them long-lasting “Organizer” jobs…..never have to work again, either! Comment by Steve B on 11/13 @ 2:40 am # Neil, you keeping using words like “asking”. You spoke of how your service was voluntary, and we should choose to get up from our keyboards and help our fellow citizens. All quite noble, laudable, etc. There is no honor, no merit, in doing something you were forced to do. You were merely being obedient. By holding this compulsory service up as a precondition of attending school, by making it a mandatory obligation which must be fulfilled in order to continue your education, and thus secure your future employment, it is no longer “service.” It’s extortion. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 2:51 am # Instead of mocking people for helping others…. Who are you talking to? Furthermore, I do not exist for the purpose of making you feel goood, Neil. Neil, my kind does not fit into your mental Fairy Tale. You don’t know where you are. Take it to the Bank. - no charge Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 3:09 am # Neil, forcing everyone into a still vacant, but almost surely Communistic “program”, will not “help” anyone. I see it as a control move to show that such can be done by the powers that be, simply so as to show the strength of the force involved, and oriented toward indoctrination, but also as a way to “out” the ones who need to be supressed or even made to disappear. Moreover, you can’t prove me wrong because the specifics of this program have not been supplied, apart from the compulsory nature of it, which itself is a stark indicator. Wouldn’t you like to hear what they are before you run off trying to get the whole Country to bow to the possibiliy that I see, just so you can feel good about yourself? Your answer has already been “No”. Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 3:14 am # dicentra: I understand what you are saying far better than you may think. And, you make a very good point about the tension between individual liberty and social obligation, between coercion and freedom/liberty. The balance between these that is needed to keep a society healthy and able to function properly is very fine. And, IMHO, that is what we, as Americans, should be debating instead of taking hard stances on or mocking those whose ideas are different than our own. The political spectrum is not a line, but a circle: if you go too far to the left or the right, you end up with totalitarianism and mindless, blind repetition of the same ideological point of view. I chose to enter this discussion because all of the comments up to that point reflected just one side of the argument and, being unbalanced in that way, creating a self-sustaining paranoia rather than a reasoned discussion of what the proper balance between individual liberty and social obligations should be in our society. In my view, over the last 30-40 years we have lost sight of the concept of social obligation as being a part of what contributed to making America the great country that it is and that we have all benefited from. We have our liberty, freedoms, wealth, etc. because people gave their LIVES for this country. What greater expression of social obligation is there than to die for your country? And, not all who have died for our freedom and liberty did so voluntarily–if you consider a draft to be coercion, then, many were coerced and yet still gave their lives. So, indeed, it is a fair question to ask how much should we allow the government to use coercion to get people to act for the good of society. And, that is something that we, as citizens, should be discussing seriously and rationally. But, to reject out of hand the notion that there are social obligations and that it may be reasonable, under certain circumstances, to allow the government to use a certain degree of coercion in order to compell people to fulfill some social obligations because we have liberty and wish to protect it seems to me to be a slap in the face to all of those who gave of themselves to give us that liberty. I believe that there is a middle ground where we can find an appropriate balance between these mutually exclusive, yet beneficial and necessary concepts, that can find wide support from the American people. Because I believe that, I do not believe that Obama (or any elected leader) can stray too far to the extreme towards coercion or totalitarianism because the vast majority of the American people will not tolerate or allow that to happen. If, in fact, that is the case, then, the most productive discussions that we can have would be directed towards trying to reach a consensus about what the proper balance should be between social obligation and individual liberty, coercion and freedom, in our society in view of the present circumstances that we find our country facing at the moment (with a very strong eye on how to preserve our liberty in the future). But, that is not a discussion that will be very productive if everyone is just espousing one ideological perspective or throwing out a bunch of sarcastic one-liners. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 3:25 am # Oh, and I guess Fairy Tale character that Neil is thinks the magically “transformational” specifics of the program would involve creating an Army of Boones. Riiiiight! Comment by P.J. on 11/13 @ 3:29 am # Neil, I am trying to wrap my head around this “social obligation” that you keep mentioning. To me, that phrase seems to imply that each person was given something, and now much pay back the government. What assumptions do you have about what people are given from the government? Aren’t government services payed for by through taxation? The problem I have with your point of view is that it seems to rely on the belief that people are not an end unto themselves. You can argue details, but throughout history wherever that idea has taken hold, it almost always ends with dead people. Lots of them. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 3:38 am # Neil, spare us your lecture, and remember you’re on the internet. Anybody, anybody, can say they did anything on the internet. You assume no one here has already done some form of charity, while you pompously share your own virtous deeds. It’s been my experience that if you are charitable with your time and money, you don’t really feel the need to list them. I won’t bore you with my charitable communal efforts, as they are given of free will, and don’t require certification by some buearacratic entity. It’s also been my experience that the chosen people, and their children or family members, are usually doing the organizing(read: holding the clipboard), while others do the heavy lifting. Good day, Kneel before your Master! Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 3:43 am # This, these comments, are part of Neil’s community service. A “Camp Obama” well adjusted “volunteer”. Three ring binder full of these wonderful talking points to cut-n-paste. Very (900) like full service. At least we don’t have to pay that $4.98 per hour yet. Comment by Christoph on 11/13 @ 3:44 am # ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s also been my experience that the chosen people, and their children or family members, are usually doing the organizing(read: holding the clipboard), while others do the heavy lifting. Mossberg500, you don’t believe this would describe Barack Obama in any way? Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 3:51 am # Steve B: As I understand it, Obama’s program would not require ALL students to do community service, only those who are able to get into college but cannot afford to do so and opt to have the government pay their tuition. If the government gives a student the money to go to college, the student must do service in return. If the student can afford to pay his/her tuition or gets financial aid and scholarships that cover his/her tuition and does not participate in the program, the student is not required to do community service. Participation in the program would be voluntary. This would be very similar to a program that the government had for medical students some years back (I don’t know if it still exists): the government would pay for med school if the student agreed to work for three years in an underserved community (at the time there were many rural communities, especially in Middle America, and inner city hospitals that did not have enough doctors). To say that there is no honor in service that is compulsory is, to my way of thinking, quite simply an insult to every man who served in the military who was drafted, particularly those who gave their lives so that you could have the freedom to make such a statement. There is no difference between a volunteer and a draftee (who was coerced into joining the military by the government) when the bullets are flying and to even imply that there is no honor in the service of the draftee is contemptable. “Trashman”: If you read what I wrote, my comments were directed to Jeff G. and in response to his comments. If you maintain, as you did in your subsequent post, that I cannot prove you wrong because the details of the program have not been released, how can you even make the comments that you made about the program, let alone prove or defend them, if you don’t know the details of the program either? How can you prove that it is “Communistic” or “oriented towards indoctrination” (or what kind of indoctrination it might be–after all, a Sunday school program is a form of indoctrination in certain specific religious ideas, isn’t it?), etc. if you have no idea what the specifics of the program are going to be? You can’t! So, you are just speculating based on your own beliefs, ideas, fears about Obama. Why don’t we just wait to see what precisely he proposes before jumping to conclusions on either side. And, in the meantime, discuss what kind of balance between social obligation and individual liberty would be acceptable in the design of a program to help kids who can get into college but can’t afford to go to college get a college degree. Or, if you prefer, whether some form of national service program for young people to get them involved in their communities and help them to become better, more informed citizens would be appropriate and acceptable at this time. I’m certain that that would be more productive than ranting about the outrageous nature of a proposed program that none of us knows anything about the details of right now. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 4:02 am # The Volunteer Army works, Neil. It fills an obviously necessary need. So why do you want to go to Governmental coercion so readily, instead of actually making the case for the Social Obligation you think is necessary, but which in fact has not even been defined yet in any concrete way whatsoever – along with the problems themselves – and has not, therefore, even been proven to be necessary to the point of requiring Govenmental coercion? [And why would the Government, with its sad record of solving such problems, suddenly become the font of effectiveness? Shouldn't the Government heal itself first, before adding on another quantum of the same-old same-old?] I’ve already given you the answer for your blatant inattention to this issue and your apparently obsessive need to involve coercion, Neil: you are the kind of Narcissist who wants to “help” people by forcing other people to do whatever it is you want, under the sole quise of superficially laudable platitudes, solely so that you can feel good about yourself, that is, actualize and reinforce your own Narcissism. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 4:05 am # IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m certain that that would be more productive than ranting about the outrageous nature of a proposed program that none of us knows anything about the details of right now. Kneel, and I’m certain that you’d be more productive astroturfing elsewhere. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 4:11 am # Ã¢â‚¬Å“TrashmanÃ¢â‚¬Â: If you read what I wrote, my comments were directed to Jeff G. and in response to his comments. But, after all, I am the Trashman, Neil. I get to collect and go through it where ever I find it. However, given your subrational response to my argument, I’m not going to “waste” any more time reading or responding to your Narcissistic Fairy Tales, Neil. Those such as yours are really all too commonplace. And even a Trashman has taste. Comment by Abru on 11/13 @ 4:22 am # There has not been a draft in 35 years. There’s a reason for that: the military found long ago that a volunteer force is more professional, dedicated and motivated. The civilian draft is one of many ideas the O-ring shares with a guy from his neighborhood. http://tinyurl.com/5lqqjz “Ayers also thinks the draft was crucial in building the counterculture, but he wants to leverage the power of universal service in a different direction: He advocates a compulsory service in areas like education and health care.” The draft did not work during the Vietnam conflict (Ayers’ own brother dodged it and fled to Canada), and the Peace Corps was a volunteer organization. Without an urgent purpose such as national defense, a civilian service draft will be readily evaded by those with the smarts or influence and deeply resented by those without. The One may soon find a new counterculture forming, one that is counter to his administration. And good luck in time of genuine crisis with a para-whatever-it’s-supposed-to-be force of conscripted community organizers. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 4:25 am # Looks like Kneel took his Obama prayer rug and left. Pity, I was hoping to learn more about piety! Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 4:37 am # I’ll bet Kneel creates great organizational charts. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 4:49 am # I’m sorely tempted to give Neil here a piece of my mind. It’d involve profanity. Normal humans don’t cotton to having Neil’s tiny little gun of rhetorical sanctimony shoved up their ass. Not to mention this flake’s obvious ignorance. Neil, my community service, you pompous idiot, involved co-chairing a parents group for over five years free of charge. It also involved working to repair what I suspect is your flavor of involuntary social legislation, legislation that allowed my State’s legal system, one particularly notorious among its 49 peers, to trample prior rights in order to directly harm children for profit. I estimate spending a good fifty-two hundred hours at it, writing over six hundred opinions and reports, counseling countless parents, and much of it in legislature and in contact with members of the system and judiciary, and all of it under an adversarial pressure that eventually compromised my health with what’s typically a terminal condition. I believe the boys who developed and died for a philosophy of freedom would be appalled by your attitude. Because you’re as ignorant as you are intolerant as you are irrecoverable and immune to fact and reason. Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 4:51 am # PJ: Google “social contract” or “Jean Jacques Rousseau”. I would look at the wikipedia articles on them first. The Founding Fathers were students of the Enlightenment philosophers, particularly Rousseau, and embodied many of their ideas in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as well as in the discussions recorded in the Federalist Papers. Basically, the concept of the social contract and social obligation maintains that, while we are individuals, we are also products of the society and benefit from the collective efforts of everyone in the society and, therefore, we have certain obligations to the society to which we belong. For example, we have liberty and freedom because others in the society, many who came before us and are gone now, fought to gain and protect that liberty and freedom; we are able to communicate on the Internet because others created the electrical systems, the computers, the software, the educational systems, etc. that allow us to communicate in this manner at a relatively small cost; etc., etc., etc. For being the beneficiaries of everything that our society has to offer, the proponents of the Social Contract maintained that we have an obligation to protect our society, try to make it better and help others in the society. This social obligation goes beyond taxes–which are payment for services rendered by those employed by the government to perform specific tasks that, in a democracy, we collectively have decided to pay people to do rather than pitch in and do with our neighbors (ie collect the garbage, etc.). Now, you may well ask, “What benefits have I gotten by being a part of this society?” The easiest way for me to answer you is by asking whether you would rather live (or have been born) in Afghanistan or the US? Considering how many people from all over the world would love to come to the US, I think that the answer to whether there are benefits that you have received, even if you didn’t know it, by living in the US is obvious. So, then, how do you repay all of those people who have made this country what it is today? The proponents of the idea of the social contract say that you do so by making the society better in whatever ways that you can (which does not, by any means, preclude you from making a profit in business!) and protecting it (which includes participating in the democratic process). Taxes don’t cover one’s social obligations. No amount of money can compensate a family for the life of a soldier who has died defending your rights, liberty and society. How do you repay Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Lincoln, etc. for their ideas and what they did to make this country what it is? How do you repay an ancestor who risked his or her life to go halfway around the world to a new country in order to build a better life not just for himself/herself, but for his or her family–including you? The only way that you can is by being a good citizen, neighbor and trying to make the society better somehow. Does that make sense to you now? Mossberg: My comments about my community service were made in direct response to a snide remark made by Jeff G. questioning my willingness to do community service. They were not directed to you nor did I make those comments for any other purpose than to answer Jeff G’s post. As for your insinuating comment that, “ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s also been my experience that the chosen people, and their children or family members, are usually doing the organizing”, in reference to my remarks, I would simply like to say that my mother, my father and the priest who baptized me would be quite surprised to learn that anyone would consider me to be one of “the chosen people”. On the other hand, nine male members of my family and the godmother whose funeral I attended on Tuesday did fight in WWII to put an end to Nazism and the kinds of attitudes that produced the concentration camps that half of them saw with their own eyes. And, that’s pretty much all I have to say on the subject. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 4:53 am # “…will give people a sense of what it means to be an American.” Did you bother to catch that part, Neil? Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 4:55 am # Does that make sense to you now? Not even remotely. Does the 13th Amendment to you? Comment by alppuccino on 11/13 @ 4:58 am # Taking Eckert’s writings and twisting them into some fantasy tale of the infancy of community service. Not cool Neil. But taking your tack, I guess we could get a bunch of Frontiersman to build a fort in downtown Detroit. You know, re-settle it. Then the Simon Kenton-style badasses would be responsible for going out of the fort and buying the pop and snack cakes while the women-folk sweep the floors. Soon the natives would be coming to the fort and then we could pick ‘em off one by one. Comment by alppuccino on 11/13 @ 5:01 am # You do realize, Neil, that those folks, including George Washington, took hatchets and marked out huge plots of land – for THEMSELVES. You know, for their troubles. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 5:10 am # One is confirmed in J. Peden’s take on Neil’s lofty view of himself, alp. Yet Neil is hovering down there an inch off the ground where educating the rubes with wikiwisdom leaves entire reams of history, philosophy, and the experiences and rights of others entirely off the table. Takes a profound sense of self to pull that off, it does. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 5:11 am # Not to mention property rights, constitutional rights, and the eternal thorn in the progressive’s side, free markets. Because they built nothing. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 5:18 am # As for your insinuating comment that, Ã¢â‚¬Å“ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s also been my experience that the chosen people, and their children or family members, are usually doing the organizingÃ¢â‚¬Â, in reference to my remarks, I would simply like to say that my mother, my father and the priest who baptized me would be quite surprised to learn that anyone would consider me to be one of Ã¢â‚¬Å“the chosen peopleÃ¢â‚¬Â. On the other hand, nine male members of my family and the godmother whose funeral I attended on Tuesday did fight in WWII to put an end to Nazism and the kinds of attitudes that produced the concentration camps that half of them saw with their own eyes. And, thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s pretty much all I have to say on the subject. Kneel, did you hear “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” playing in your head when you were typing that? Please go on and tell us of you and your family’s sacrifice to our country, as though none of us has shared in it with you. Ã¢â‚¬Å“Humility is like underwear, essential, but indecent if it shows” – Helen Nielsen Comment by kasper on 11/13 @ 5:20 am # Neil you can use as many words as you like to appear to have a strong argument for such a ridiculous, creepy idea as a “civilian Force.” We have NO obligation to contribute to our community (as someone here already mentioned) other than to pay our taxes and live within the laws of our country. I don’t know where you come from, but most people in my community try to raise their children the best way they can, and MANY contribute through organizations — Boys Scouts, Lions Club, Rotary, Boys and Girls Club, town recreation activities, churches, giving time and money to local help groups,share etc. My children have participated in many of these VOLUNTEER groups over the years. That’s how it is done — not by indoctrinating kids into thinking their country is rotten when they live (or used to) live in the greatest, most generous and sacrificing country on earth. You keep ranting, but I’ve stopped listening. Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 5:23 am # Not to mention property rights, constitutional rights, and the eternal thorn in the progressiveÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s side, free markets. Because they built nothing. If it’s not in the three ring binder it is not an important thing. “Obama Knows Best” is the only show running on the TV that Kneel calls his mind. The programing has started. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 5:30 am # Kneel… Heh. Redefining cowardice as courage must surely be the icing on the progressive’s little postmodern cupcake… Comment by Drider on 11/13 @ 5:34 am # We can come up with any nice story about pioneers and how noble it is to commit ones time and effort into putting forth ones service to assist others, and that is a noble deed. There is no splitting hairs on the fact that in “requiring” people to do anything that they would not want to do otherwise, is a blatant assault on our Liberties. This ain’t the change most people signed up for no matter what tear jerking sales pitch we hear. On a different note, I heard a guy on Cavuto talking about the government taking over privately held companies….GM was the main topic and the guy said the Government could and should run that company because they could do it better. He also made the statement that “people are calling this Socialism” in such an off the cuff and arrogant manner that I honestly believe that he didn’t realize he was describing Marxism. I believe that our fears on how far and fast on what our new leader is willing to take the Country into leftdom is coming to light….All hopes on this not happening are on the shoulders of whats left of true Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats….God help us. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 5:39 am # Maybe had Kneel dispensed with the mighty education and clicked through he might have found this. Comment by Rusty on 11/13 @ 5:50 am # The’benefits that society has to offer’ does not begin with government. It begins with the voluntary sacrifice of individuals. The majority of real social service is done voluntarily by private organizations. I strongly suggest you look up the meaning of the word ‘charity’. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 5:51 am # I’m sure Obamanation will recognize Kneel’s astroturfing skills, and give him a clipboard to construct his own organizational chart. Maybe he can develop a SOP for the proper methodology when genuflecting in the presence of an O! portrait, statue, or likeness. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 5:56 am # It Can’t Happen Here. I Been Checkin’ It, My Dear….. Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 5:57 am # Neil Masters: The XII Amendment did not prevent the government from instituting a draft. The “force” you are supporting is not a military force. Try again. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 5:59 am # “Comment by Neil Masters on 11/13 @ 4:51 am # PJ: Google Ã¢â‚¬Å“social contractÃ¢â‚¬Â or Ã¢â‚¬Å“Jean Jacques RousseauÃ¢â‚¬Â.” If I had a time machine and a high-powered rifle, Rousseau is the FIRST cocksucker I’d go back and kill. 100s of millions of victims of the reactionary leftist collective delusion, victims of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler would thank me. You, not so much. Comment by P.J. on 11/13 @ 6:01 am # Neil Thanks for the response. Also, I should thank you for laying out your argument. So often on the internet people talk past each other because they don’t even agree on the fundamentals. Having said that, I completely disagree with your fundamentals. I reject the notion that I am a product of society (whatever that means?). I do feel blessed to have been born in the United States, and even now I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. But all of the things that mentioned that make our lives great (the internet, indoor plumbing, etc..) did not spontaneously appear from “society.” Individual men, sometimes working together voluntarily, made all of that possible. The key there is voluntary. It is my belief (and I believe history supports it) that wealth and freedom are directly related. When you start taking away peoples’ freedom, none of the great things we have today would be possible. And I think that me paying for the service or product that they invent/offer is all that should be required of me. Not to say that charity work isn’t respectable, but when you take away choice, you destroy the very concept of charity. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 6:04 am # Yeah, but, folks, this is just ODS to talk about this. Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 6:06 am # Neil proclaimed: I am not one who is in favor of taking guns away from law-abiding citizens. I do, however, believe that it should be possible to come up with reasonable ways to keep guns, especially high-powered automatic weapons, out of the hands of criminals, street gangs and those who are known to be mentally unstable without threatening or impinging on the rights of the rest of law-abiding society to own guns and use them in a lawful manner (including hunting, target shooting and self-defense). Yes, that’s the usual excuses. Odd how it usually ends up affecting anyone not in your list more. Not buying. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 6:15 am # It is my belief (and I believe history supports it) that wealth and freedom are directly related. That may fall on deaf ears, PJ. What Kneel also apparently fails to recognize is that not only are property and freedom inherently linked, but that the mere act of engaging the free market restores civility to the equation he’d have fall to nothing more than an as yet undefined standard of performance and with it — or even due to it — an equally undefined “sense of what it is to be American”, whatever the hell “American” could possibly mean in that context. It’s a path beyond foolish. Yet for the Kneels out there, shorting out the finest arbitrator of human decency devised, or the free market of choice — even as imperfect as it can be when it’s not dealt in and with in sound principle and personal integrity — is somehow the way to a more high functioning populace. And that’s leaving the whole universe of prior constitutional right and ethic aside. Amazing. If this isn’t the theoretical nub of Communism, surely nothing is. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 6:18 am # I do, however, believe that it should be possible to come up with reasonable ways to keep guns, especially high-powered automatic weapons, out of the hands of criminals, street gangs and those who are known to be mentally unstable without threatening or impinging on the rights of the rest of law-abiding society… Name one. And high-powered automatic weapons? You mean Uzi’s? .50 machine guns? Howitzers? Or are you clueless? Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 6:20 am # JHoward: It’s like I’m back on talk.politics.guns in the late 90s. Comment by alppuccino on 11/13 @ 6:26 am # It’s legalized home-invasion, is where this is going. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 6:36 am # Neil I daresay that you mistook your last name as your job title. PS. I would love to see you come in my house and try to force me to do community service. Seriously I would freakin love it. What is the difference between coming in my house and forcing me to do it and voting for politicians that will force me to do it? I can answer that for you, one requires you personally to have balls, the other not so much. Both are still morally wrong. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 6:37 am # Taxes donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t cover oneÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s social obligations. No amount of money can compensate a family for the life of a soldier who has died defending your rights, liberty and society. How do you repay Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Lincoln, etc. for their ideas and what they did to make this country what it is? How do you repay an ancestor who risked his or her life to go halfway around the world to a new country in order to build a better life not just for himself/herself, but for his or her familyÃ¢â‚¬â€œincluding you? The only way that you can is by being a good citizen, neighbor and trying to make the society better somehow. First, don’t you guys SLEEP? Second – I have a GREAT idea. Feel like giving back? Join the military. My husband did it. 20 years. My bil did it; he just landed in the Middle East overnight. Second tour. Honestly, the people defending this idea have lost their minds. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 6:37 am # Anyone else think Neil here has over 50 diaries on Kos? Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 6:52 am # How do you repay Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Lincoln, etc. for their ideas and what they did to make this country what it is? How do you repay an ancestor who risked his or her life to go halfway around the world to a new country in order to build a better life not just for himself/herself, but for his or her familyÃ¢â‚¬â€œincluding you? The only way that you can is by being a good citizen, neighbor and trying to make the society better somehow. “Go forth in all your beliefs and prove to me I was not mistaken in mine.” Based on what they did, what they said, and the reasons they gave, I doubt the Founders would particularly want us to so easily surrender our self-determination. Would they like to see us being good neighbors, contributing to our communities, etc? Sure — but voluntarily, not with a rifle at our backs. But, hell, this is really just the logical extension of the modern left’s thoughts on taxes. Why should they filter the time they want to confiscate from us through an employer? Oh, and for young adults who want to earn money for college: GET A JOB!!! It works, it doesn’t impose on anyone’s liberties, and if people who don’t even speak English can earn enough to live in the US, you can earn enough while living with your parents to put yourself through college. Comment by Kneel Master Bates on 11/13 @ 6:52 am # The only way to repay the people who gave us our freedom is to give that freedom away. Can’t you see that, you selfish sissies? Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 6:55 am # That $4000 for community service thing really bugs me. It’s not community service if you are getting “paid” for it, even if that payment comes in the form of a government hand-out. I can only imagine the governmental agencies necessary to oversee such a thing. The question: How much will all this “community service” cost us? Comment by donald on 11/13 @ 6:56 am # My social obligation consists of building my company to the point where I can hire more people. People who make damned good money (And pay taxes) and produce their own set of self worth. The more people I do that with, the more individualism extends itself. And the more individualism we have the less control a fear inducing, evil goverment has. Faggots, losers, grimy little fascists like Neil and Thor think that’s not good enough. They think my 80-90 hour weeks of grinding it out, sleeping very little, paying bills, honoring the law isn’t enough. I owe it to THE PEOPLE to knuckle under to the state and perform as I’m demanded. I think I’ll pass. I think I’ll absolutely waste anybody that tries to tell me that’s what I’ve got to do. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 7:01 am # I guess when his wife said “Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.” she wasn’t kidding. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 7:01 am # I have a feeling Kneel immensely enjoys signing his name. I can imagine him repeating his name aloud like the coyote in the Road Runner cartoon, “Wile E Coyote…super genius!”, while constructing an ACME Obama piggybank. Comment by Noel on 11/13 @ 7:10 am # There is a huge difference between making a Peace Corps avaiable and making it mandatory. The draft was different; that was a way of defending America (the 1st priorty of a government) and sharing that absolutely vital duty equally among a patriotic citizenry. The Left has assaulted the very concept of patriotism for the last 40 years–despite the “Don’t question my patriotism!”-meme. They’ve questioned ALL patriotism. (btw, Nixon cut the guts out of the anti-war movement by cancelling the draft. Once pampered college kids were safe–problem solved!) We went to a volunteer army because patriotism was no longer widely-shared–it was extinct on the Left. The services simply didn’t want their rotten, spoiled, drugged-up America-hating asses. But what Obama and Ayers are proposing is different. They want indentured servitude by children. Maybe Obama should have a seance with Lincoln–he fought a war over this–with draftees! Obama wouldn’t sentence a Gitmo detainee to community service without charges, a trial or a lawyer–but he’ll do it to kids! In the usual Communist way, it confuses public and private, treating Other People’s Children as Property of the State. Families, like private charity and service, are bulwarks against the Overweening State. They are competing institutions. Hence the illegal, immoral Global War on both Families and Charity. Pingback by Audio: Rahm Emanuel on Compulsory Civil Defense Service…Its Coming : Stop The ACLU on 11/13 @ 7:14 am # [...] Jeff Goldstein: LetÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s call this what it is: a state-sanctioned confiscation of liberty that is being justified, through some Orwellian calculus, in the name of Ã¢â‚¬Å“what it means to be an American.Ã¢â‚¬Â [...] Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 7:18 am # First, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you guys SLEEP? Yes but I have a disabled wife I have to help to the bathroom and back every time she needs during the night. It means I’m up 5 or 6 times per night for 15 min. each. Got to do something. Pingback by Obama vetting on 11/13 @ 7:21 am # [...] thinking that welfare is going to be a hell of a lot easier, thank O! Well, after those first 3 months or so. Posted by Pablo @ 1:17 pm \| Trackback Share [...] Comment by Pablo Abu Jamal on 11/13 @ 7:23 am # I do, however, believe that it should be possible to come up with reasonable ways to keep guns, especially high-powered automatic weapons, out of the hands of criminals, street gangs… Oh, it is possible. Lock them up. Comment by DiverCity on 11/13 @ 7:32 am # Come on little brown shirts — Looks like I’ll need to go out and purchase MORE guns and ammo today. I’m kind of excited about the opportunity to mix it up, as they say in the business, with the brown shirts. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 7:33 am # geoffb, you get a pass. The rest of you folks, though … Comment by william on 11/13 @ 7:34 am # “If the student can afford to pay his/her tuition or gets financial aid and scholarships that cover his/her tuition and does not participate in the program, the student is not required to do community service. Participation in the program would be voluntary.” If this comes to pass, I think we can be pretty certain that the kids who don’t have “community service” on their college applications will be put at the bottom of the stack by the college admissions bureaucrat who most certainly voted for “O”. Favor will be shown to those who have served the “greater good” and “deserve” a higher education and a better paying government job. Those who didn’t perform their government “social obligation” project will be the OUTLAWS and considered to be less than desireable students of the New Order. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 7:35 am # Carin my excuse is my job requires me to wake up around 5am. If you are in the Western time zone then you probably think I am up all night. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 7:38 am # All I know is that this post was began around midnight (Mountain time, I guess?) and when I woke around 7 am eastern there were nearly 100 comments. Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 7:39 am # What occurs to me is just how insanely corrupt this little “voluntary” service would be. You’d have inapproriate relationships left and right (between the the kids themselves and their chaperons), and there is no way in hell they’d actually get anything done. You’d actually have to create another gov’t service to undo the damage inflicted by this gov’t service. Can you imagine trying to get 17 year old high school kids to pick up trash along a road? Its hard enough to get Marines to police call a motor pool. Even aside from the fact that this is a violation of everything we stand for, IT WON’T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. Except making it clear that we belong to them, not to ourselves. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 7:40 am # Mocking is a timeless art! Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 7:46 am # “Compulsory volunteerism”. Newspeak at it’s best. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 7:46 am # Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 7:39 am # What occurs to me is just how insanely corrupt this little Ã¢â‚¬Å“voluntaryÃ¢â‚¬Â service would be. YouÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d have inapproriate relationships left and right (between the the kids themselves and their chaperons), and there is no way in hell theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d actually get anything done. YouÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d actually have to create another govÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t service to undo the damage inflicted by this govÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t service. Can you imagine trying to get 17 year old high school kids to pick up trash along a road? Its hard enough to get Marines to police call a motor pool. Even aside from the fact that this is a violation of everything we stand for, IT WONÃ¢â‚¬â„¢T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. Except making it clear that we belong to them, not to ourselves. And as soon as there is some accident or scandal causing emotional or physical injury and/or death, litigation will turn this idea into a circus…bread anyone? Comment by ThomasD on 11/13 @ 7:48 am # When I was a kid I can remember thinking the third amendment was just the silliest fucking thing I had ever read. The only problem with the third amendment is that it has not been given the expansive reading of some other amendments. It is relegated to the purely literal reading. But really, isn’t the heart of the amendment a restriction of government imposition on private property rights? Couldn’t the principle inherent within be emanating certain penumbras that would expand the scope of the amendment to include prohibition of such impositions? (With the noted exception in times of war.) Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 7:51 am # When the government starts talking about barracks and uniforms and training for 3 months and 50 jumping jacks, they’re no longer talking about community service or first aid courses. This is a Boot Camp. And what do Boot Camps do? Break you down and rebuild you for the required task. Neil can just STFU. Rousseau, ass that he was, would NOT have backed a scheme to take the Natural Man and turn him into a tool of the State for any purpose whatsoever. Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 7:55 am # >>All I know is that this post was began around midnight (Mountain time, I guess?) and when I woke around 7 am eastern there were nearly 100 comments. Cool with that. Consider the topic! Shoot, I heard this audio last night and could hardly sleep. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 7:57 am # Neil can just STFU. Rousseau, ass that he was, would NOT have backed a scheme to take the Natural Man and turn him into a tool of the State for any purpose whatsoever. Perhaps, but the followers of Rousseau always seem to salivate over the opportunity. Comment by Mongerel on 11/13 @ 7:58 am # Expect the Derelict Media to go into full propaganda mode to sell this to the American people. And for a swarm of Trained Neils to flood blog comments. There will be kids on TV and talk radio begging for this opportunity and asking why conservatives are standing in the way of their hopes and dreams. What’s wrong kids trained in emergency response, first aid, and so on. Assume that this thing actually gets underway: those of us who are able and willing should undertake to get hired into the machine so it can be watched from the inside. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:02 am # I wonder what the reaction would be if GW proposed this? Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 8:03 am # The strawmen for this debate are : This is NOT slavery. I thought you God botherers were all ABOUT community service? Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 8:03 am # I think what really makes this bad though, is since its a left wing idea, the uniforms will totally suck ass. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:04 am # Neil is a dirty fascist what would pimp his mother for the fatherland I think. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:07 am # When I was seventeen It was a very good year We’d hide from the lights On the village green When I was seventeen When I was eighteen I helped crush freedom for the greater glory of Barack Obama It was kind of meh really but now this country owes me BIG so that’s cool Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 8:07 am # >>This is NOT slavery. No no, its brainwashing. Every swinging dick veteran who thinks for half a second about the implications of O-force Boot Camps should be able to feel in their guts what a Bad Idea this is. It is emphatically not about community service. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 8:09 am # I think what really makes this bad though, is since its a left wing idea, the uniforms will totally suck ass. The pants will have the “trap door” feature to make ass sucking GLBT compliant. Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 11/13 @ 8:09 am # Now, now… all that Neil is doing is ignoring the obvious corrosive effect that creeping statism and socialism have had upon the social contract. As the government has socialized responsibilities that were formerly community responsibilities, the community has washed their hands of those duties — predictably, might I add. It is wholly disingenuous for him to be berating us, however, for the predictable results of the policies he and his have advocated over the decades past. It would be akin to Neil shooting his parents and then, at sentencing, pleading for leniency on the grounds he is now an orphan. Comment by Noah D on 11/13 @ 8:12 am # Ms. Wolfe, could you remind us what stage we’re at again, please? Comment by Mongerel on 11/13 @ 8:12 am # ………..I wonder what the reaction would be if GW proposed this?……….. Obot answer will be something like, “well if he had shown this kind of caring for the youth of America rather than just sending them overseas to die, maybe he wouldn’t have been so unpopular”. See the problem is that we are dealing with a cult mentality. People enthralled in this way are not receptive to Freedom and Liberty arguments. They are too busy “belonging” so something larger than themselves, and defending their leader. Comment by Noel on 11/13 @ 8:12 am # Let’s suppose that what Obama wants is a giant soft-power army–a super Peace Corps abroad, and a giant mandatory America Corps here at home. The Peace Corps might assume some of the meals on wheels functions of the military. On the other hand, the military might be pitted against it as soldierswould be stuck with the dirty work and have no carrots to hand out, only sticks. This Peace Corp could devolve quickly into a massive foreign aid mechanism and would doubtless be funded at the militay’s expense. At home, the mandatory or quasi-mandatory nature of a universal America Corps is objectionable. Look at Katrina–the real work was done by private volunteers, often religious groups, though I’m sure America Corps did some. But once you make it mandatory it is no longer “volunteerism”–it’s “compulsion”. And once you pay benefits, those become govenment jobs, often make-work jobs. They’ve even been known to pay for kids doing Democrat campaign work. That’s just politicians funding their own campaigns, “Heroic”, huh? Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 8:14 am # I might be able to support this, if you promise me all those dancing hippies in Birkenstocks I saw on election night will be sent to a salt mine. It reminds me of Ayn Rand’s observation, at the justice of the true Bolsheviks being slaughtered in the end by the monsters they had unleashed on everyone else. Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 8:15 am # We already have two points for unit cohesion given by Rahm himself. The ‘circle of love’ and ‘a shared experience’. Give ‘em all a little purpose and some guns and you’ve got quite the esprit des corps going on. Brain-numbed O-bots that maybe 20 years after will reflect on the horrible fkn mistake they made. But some will always believe. Comment by ThomasD on 11/13 @ 8:21 am # What the Kneels of the world need to consider is one of Ric’s rules; ants find the sugar. So what if Kneel knows Obama is a good and decent man who would never allow this civilian defense force to be abused, misused, or perverted into the service of an oppressive State. So what. What about the next guy who gets into office? Because, if you build it, they most certainly will come. And by building a very attractive prize, one that is tailor made to service the power hungry totalitarian, one that has no Constitutional restrictions, who would we expect to come a calling but those seeking to wield just such a device? American politicians, with rare exceptions, have been an amazingly mediocre lot. This is not by accident, it is entirely institutional, the very nature of the Federal government selects, rewards, and promotes the mediocrity. We change this at our hazard. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 8:25 am # The lefties have been polishing up their deontological studies for the last 12 yrs just waiting for this opportunity. So expect plenty more where Neil came from. J. Locke? Oh, nevermind that old turd, it’s gonna be all Rousseau, all the time now-a-days boys! Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:25 am # It’s a perverse idea at the core I think. You are a Citizen and your purpose is to Serve the State. That’s the beginning and end of it and you are made ridiculous the very second you acquiesce. Comment by Timstigator on 11/13 @ 8:26 am # Can I volunteer to be an inmate-camp guard at Re-education Camp #326? That’s the one that I think will be located conveniently to my wife and kids here in the Midwest. They can visit and bring me little delicacies. “Civil Defense Force participants” have to be housed i>somewhere<i. Comment by Cave Bear on 11/13 @ 8:30 am # The more I hear about what Obambi and his minions have in mind for this country, the more frightened I get. (Saw a bit of news, of the ABC sort, yesterday that would indicate I’m not the only one; gun shops are being flooded by people buying weapons.) I’m still waiting for Neil or Emanuel, whomever, to explain to me just what this “National Defense Corps” is supposed to do. All $500 billion dollars worth. And you know damn good and well that with millions of 18 to 25 year olds to “process”, there will be a permanent core cadre in this organization numbering in at least the tens of thousands. Anybody think they won’t be doing anything other than just making sure the kiddies do their jumping jacks and keeping their barracks clean? And if Neil wants to talk about George Washington, hearken to this quote from the first president: “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” Everything Obambi and his people have said from the start of all this has indicated an overwhelming desire to impose their will, by the use of force or coercion, on the rest of us. Neil talks about a “circle” of political persuasions, with extremes of “left” and “right”. I prefer Pournelle’s political axes, because it is much more illustrative of the world as it is. That is, people like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Marx, Pol Pot, Mussolini, and Obambi and his people are all in the same zone. They are all extreme statists who have not or will not hesitate to use force, and this includes deadly force, to get what they want from those under them. “Social compact”, my ass. This household has met it’s social fucking compact, and does so on a daily basis. And yes, that includes paying taxes, although by no means is that all of it. We KNOW what our “social obligations” are, and can attend to them quite well without some supercilious lefty dickweed dictating to us what those are. And nobody in my family ever got drafted either. I had a great uncle who commanded a squadron of destroyers escorting convoys back and forth across the Atlantic during WW II, and got a couple of ships shot out from under him for his trouble. Another uncle was in the 509th Bomb Group (google THAT one). And my father was in the Navy in the South Pacific back then as well (he didn’t get shot at too much, but when he did the occasions were, shall we say, memorable). So spare me the holier-than-thou bullshit about who is obligated for what. Now I have to see about getting a long gun today. I have the feeling I’m going to need it. Comment by History and Moral Philosophy on 11/13 @ 8:30 am # The Founding Fathers were students of the Enlightenment philosophers, particularly Rousseau, and embodied many of their ideas in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as well as in the discussions recorded in the Federalist Papers. Wrong. Rousseau had almost no influence on the Founders, who took their inspiration, rather, from the British Enlightenment — Locke, Smith, Hume, other philosophers of a Whiggish bent. In particular, Rousseau thought that civil rights derived from a strong government, rather than being inherent. Rousseau did have a great deal of influence on Marxism, though. PJ: Google Ã¢â‚¬Å“social contractÃ¢â‚¬Â or Ã¢â‚¬Å“Jean Jacques RousseauÃ¢â‚¬Â. I would look at the wikipedia articles on them first. Maybe you should try taking your own advice. Despite some similarities in thought, there is little evidence that Rousseau had an impact on Thomas Jefferson and, indeed, he seems to have had little impact on 18th century political thought in the United States, which was dominated by Republicanism and Liberalism. These two were actually more influenced by the English Liberal philosopher John Locke. You know as much of Rousseau as you know of guns, Neil. Rousseau’s romantic nonsense has produced some of the most oppressive governments in history. Comment by Andrew the Noisy on 11/13 @ 8:33 am # “As I understand it, ObamaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s program would not require ALL students to do community service, only those who are able to get into college but cannot afford to do so and opt to have the government pay their tuition. If the government gives a student the money to go to college, the student must do service in return. If the student can afford to pay his/her tuition or gets financial aid and scholarships that cover his/her tuition and does not participate in the program, the student is not required to do community service. Participation in the program would be voluntary.” If this is true, and the kid can opt either to do community service or pay money, then I don’t have a problem with it, on principle. Voluntary community service is in itself, harmless. What I would like better is if this service could be spread across a variety of organizations rather than forming a giant federal bureaucracy, but the rest of seems fine. Social obligations are all well and fine, Neil, but to put the federal government in charge of it is simple foolishness. The government organizes only big institutions for large tasks tolerably well. To expect a single Volunteer Corps to be able to organize itself best according to the needs of every community is the triumph of hope over experience. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 8:37 am # #133. Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 11/13 @ 8:09 am A total thread-winner, handily illustrating the inherent asymmetry of the Kneels of the planet: Not only make folks argue your bullshit on its terms, do it in definance of what your ilk wreaked on the place prior that brought us here. The terrible irony is that leftism induces leftism. Consider these financial bailouts and the climate the first one of the cursed, unconstitutional things created. Wheee! Good work, Dread sir or madam. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 8:43 am # If this is true, and the kid can opt either to do community service or pay money, then I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have a problem with it, on principle. How do you feel about government schools? Because that miserable institution enables choices like the very bad one you just mentioned. (I’m still trying to get my head around the notion that involuntarily taxing the individual’s time constitutes either a constitutionally authentic ethic or a patriotic chore.) Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 8:43 am # I question the timing in this way. A couple days ago there is this serious push in the bloggosphere to self-censor how we can talk about our political enemies. Every one is a warm fuzzy cuddle bunny on both sides, /snark, but close to what was being pushed. Where did that meme come from? Why then? And now this tape comes out and in the early morning Neil drops by this supposedly somewhat obscure and blog-roll dropped site with ready made and extensive talking points. There is some serious, well financed, “community organized”, astroturfing going on. That I find troubling. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 8:43 am # Neil: …the concept of the social contract and social obligation maintains… …we are also products of the society… …benefit from the collective efforts of everyone in the society… …we have certain obligations to the society… …we have liberty and freedom because* others in the society… Founders: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness… Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 8:48 am # One other thing is the suggestion that our youth need this as a “common experience” that they can all have. I think “High School” fills that bill and is as well loved as this idea will be too. Comment by ThomasD on 11/13 @ 8:49 am # There is some serious, well financed, Ã¢â‚¬Å“community organizedÃ¢â‚¬Â, astroturfing going on. That I find troubling.</i.* Seconded. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 8:49 am # A href=”http://homepage.mac.com/sarahwmac/.music/12 I Am Not Your Broom.mp3″>I am NOT your broom. I personally would refuse to pay tuition to any school that adopted O’s plan. Or violated my state’s right to set its own educational standards. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 8:50 am # Sorry for the broken link: I am not your broom Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:53 am # I always wonder how people can justify voting for something that they themselves would never try to do. They vote to take money from one person and give it to another when meanwhile they would never have the balls to stroll in my house and take my toaster and hand it to a poor person. They vote for politicians promising mandatory community service when meanwhile they wouldn’t dare dream of coming in my house and forcing me to go pick up trash on the street. F you people and your pathetic rationalizations. Stop hiding behind a voting booth and come do this crap to my face. PS I agree this guy was typing way to many paragraphs back to back for it not to be some kinda cut and paste job. I tried googling several sentences he typed but no luck finding it. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 8:54 am # Just call it theft, Pink. Much easier to comprehend. Comment by Timstigator on 11/13 @ 8:54 am # “Founders: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of HappinessÃ¢â‚¬Â¦” Sdferr: I’m not sure the Left is all that much in love with Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Life: can’t guarantee it with our stance on abortion. Liberty: Civil Defense Force Mandatory. Pursuit of Happiness: no pursuit about it, we guarantee Happiness is a Right, and it comes in the forms of entitlements. You will be happy. Or else. Comment by Salt Lick on 11/13 @ 8:56 am # I’m too busy to unpack all Neil’s stuff, but two things: 1. I was in the Peace Corps. The attrition rate in those days (late 70’s) was 50% and from what I gather, it hasn’t changed much. Much of the attrition was just bored and unhappy young people wanting to go home. Anyone who thinks host countries appreciate and are bettered by hordes of bored, unhappy, drugged-up and sexed-up American 20-somethings WITHOUT MILITARY DISCIPLINE is living in a dreamworld. 2. I’ve studied Colonial and American Revolutionary War history for 15 years now. The social contract Neil mentions existed along with an entirely different social structure, government power structure, and moral code than exists now. There were far more checks and balances on power in that world and you could hide. If you’ve got any doubts, just start posting all over the internet using O’s full name and the words “kll” and “assssinate” in the same sentence over and over. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 8:56 am # Where did that meme come from? Why then? And now this tape comes out and in the early morning Neil drops by this supposedly somewhat obscure and blog-roll dropped site with ready made and extensive talking points. As soon as I saw the name “Neil Masters” something didn’t smell right. Have to give’em credit for the depth of his assinine boatload of astroturf fertilizer. Comment by Timstigator on 11/13 @ 8:57 am # I think the insertion of the word “Pursuit” is the most awesome word. It means “the government shall not get in your way.” “Pursuit of Happiness”…there’s so much in that statement. Libs must feel that pursuit just isn’t enough. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:59 am # I can understand theft JHoward, but at least a thief has the balls to do it himself. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 9:02 am # Doesn’t it take more balls to stand up in public and call otherwise obvious “theft”, “charity”? Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:03 am # No it doesn’t. That way they also get to justify their actions on top of it. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:03 am # I do, however, believe that it should be possible to come up with reasonable ways to keep guns, especially high-powered automatic weapons, out of the hands of criminals, street gangs and [some other people] Neil, there’s already a way to do that, and it’s already in place. Those are things that require permits that are extremely difficult to obtain, and you can’t get them without jumping through a whole lot of legal hoops. Legally. In reality, though, gangs that have automatic weapons haven’t taken legal channels to obtain them. Passing more laws isn’t going to help, unless you accompany those laws with (dare I say it) draconian inspection laws that keep illegal* guns from moving around. You’d probably have to shred a little of the Constitution to make that work, though. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 9:04 am # “if this is true, and the kid can opt either to do community service or pay money, then I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have a problem with it, on principle. Voluntary community service is in itself, harmless. What I would like better is if this service could be spread across a variety of organizations rather than forming a giant federal bureaucracy, but the rest of seems fine” ——– No, it’s not fine. Students may work in the private sector if they need to pay for college or expenses, rather than take money from Federal coffers. It isn’t “community service”, it’s employment and make-work. Of a dangerous sort, as others have pointed out… Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:06 am # Oops, screwed up formatting. First paragraph should have been blockquoted; second not. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:06 am # If this guy said that load of horseshit in a bar someone would pour a beer on him. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 9:08 am # If this guy said that load of horseshit in a bar someone would pour a beer on him. Fuck that! Drink the beer, and then piss on him. That’s sorta like pouring a beer on him by proxy, right? Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 9:11 am # Slart, with regard to your points on thugs with guns, I think Neil needs to go back to his studies and work his way through concepts like “state of nature”, “state of civil society”, “state of war” and “state of peace”, with a view to understanding where individuals fall within these schemes. Then maybe we’ll talk. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:11 am # I agree with the sentiment Moss that is for sure. It is hard for me to imagine some blue color guy standing around at a bar saying that load of horseshit. This is a product of our higher education system who probably has not done a day of hard work in his life. PS I am sure illegal immigrants will be exempt from this civilian task force. Comment by MarkD on 11/13 @ 9:12 am # I already volunteered. Go away, stay away. Stay away from me and my family. Save your sanctimonious bs. I’ve served with conscripts. Even the Marines cannot brainwash the unwilling. I’ve seen “vicious compliance” first hand. Even if your cause were worthy, your methods will not work. I’m not volunteering for O. My family is not volunteering for O. If you come, you better bring a gun. Thanks for playing, Neil. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 9:13 am # SarahW is right. Helping someone run their business for a fair paycheck should never be implicitly devalued like these dirty socialists are wanting to do. Much much good comes of it and people what can’t suckle on the government teat is where innovation and resourcefulness come from I think. Individual people. These ones are anathema to Baracky and his woman. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 9:22 am # Whenever anyone takes something from the government, the government is going to want something from the taker in its turn. Don’t want to “belong” to the government? Then take nothing from it. Problem is, just as Ric explained about the Prisoner’s dilemma viz political parties right and left, so it is with businesses or organizations of any sort. If enough defect, the non-defectors will lose, or at least be at a distinct opening disadvantage. So they defect out of a need for self-preservation. And government power thus accumulates. Want to grow sugar cane without using government subsidies? You can’t. Your business will die. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:24 am # Regarding Rousseau: not infallible, was our friend Jean-Jacques. His notion of primitive society was completely ass-backward. His utter rejection of the notion of private property is incompatible with society as we know it. Adopt Rousseau wholly, and you have to give up everything you own. These shoes are not my shoes; this cheeseburger is not my cheeseburger. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 9:26 am # I had another thought – all this community service supposedly performed by people who are already contributing to society by not being leeches on society. How about we target the deadbeats? We need to get those bums who accept public aid to do some “community service.” Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 9:28 am # I think the insertion of the word Ã¢â‚¬Å“PursuitÃ¢â‚¬Â is the most awesome word. It means Ã¢â‚¬Å“the government shall not get in your way.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pursuit of HappinessÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦thereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s so much in that statement. Libs must feel that pursuit just isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t enough. As I recall — though this may be apocryphal — the original phrase was “Pursuit of Property”. It also works if you use the word “pursuit” in the sense of “job”. Comment by PR on 11/13 @ 9:31 am # I suspect Kneel was a paid “volunteer” in his “community service”, what normal people call a job. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 9:32 am # How about we target the deadbeats? We need to get those bums who accept public aid to do some Ã¢â‚¬Å“community service.Ã¢â‚¬Â Carin, as I mentioned upthread, what happens if someone gets inured, emotionally or physically? It’s a matter of liability, which will be picked up by the taxpayer anyway, and probably at a greater expense. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:32 am # There’s no such thing as property, Rob. And, fuck it, I’m taking your name. Rob is so much easier to throw around than Slartibartfast. Comment by PR on 11/13 @ 9:33 am # and oh yeah, I forgot: make me. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:33 am # I would give myself 90% odds to be able to drive over to Neil’s house and take anything I want from him without him being able to stop me(barring police intervention). I consider it morally wrong but I could do it if I wanted. I consider that a ton more ethical though than voting for someone else to do it for me. That would be cowardice plain and simple. Driving to Neil’s house and then forcing him to wash my car is not any different. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:33 am # This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 9:34 am # You have it about right Rob, as Jefferson’s phrase was a gloss on Locke, who spoke of “property”, “possessions” and “estate”, oh, and gathering acorns if I recall correctly. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:35 am # Neil was the guy in the front of the class that would rat on the other students and then get his ass beat at lunch time. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 9:36 am # I wish if Barraky were going to spend a pile of money, it would be on serious mental illness. Workhouses for bums on public aid is an old concept. I’m not so much for that either, since a lot of those bums are truly disabled persons, weak or sick and the largest portion not capable or fit to function like able-bodied people. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:36 am # …which is not to say there isn’t something to be said from stepping away from the shackles of Too Much Stuff. Just don’t think you can force enlightenment on others; it just doesn’t fucking work. Ever. It’s kind of like liberty, like that. You can’t give it away. You can always lead by example, though. I’d be happy to help relieve you of the curse of excess stuff. Especially stuff that takes the form of, like, cash or bearer bonds. Comment by DarthRove on 11/13 @ 9:37 am # Here’s what it comes down to, Neil: I don’t get to determine my own or my family’s social obligations, a government agent gets to determine that for me. Or else. Sorry, I’m not buying. But you shore do talk purty. Just like somebody else I seen on the teevee. Comment by BumperStickerist on 11/13 @ 9:37 am # I swear – this thing comes down to whether you prefer the American Revolution or the French Revolution (which came, you know, after the American Revolution). These Obamites are just itching to turn the calendar into a nice round 10 months, rename things for no apparent purpose, and make the US adopt the metric system. At which point there will be a massive blood-letting in the public square. Comment by Ric Locke on 11/13 @ 9:38 am # I used to be an advocate of something like this, being influenced by the concepts in Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie of the same name). What killed it for me was not Liberty or Human Rights, but arithmetic. Run the numbers, people. The Census Bureau doesn’t have any easily-findable breakdowns or summaries, so a quick Google came up with this. According to that, the United States has roughly 280 million people, 62% of whom are within the classical “working age” group (15-59). That gives us 174 million of working age. (No, it isn’t accurate. I’m going for horseback estimates here.) The age group being mentioned in the proposal is roughly 18-26, roughly one-sixth of the entire span. Call it twenty-five million. Twenty. Five. Million. People. All of them at the age of greatest vigor, adventurousness, and inquisitiveness. What in the nine million names of God are they going to do? Keep in mind that we can’t even have chain gangs cleaning up the roadside any more in most places, the stated reason being “cruel and unusual” but the real motive being to insure lots of Government-protected contributors of Union dues. Most of the things you and I would think of as “Community Service” — picking up trash, bringing hot meals to isolated senior citizens, that sort of work — is the jealously guarded fief of one or another of the Government “service” Unions. Teaching kids to read? Not if the NEA has anything to say about it, and they do. The problem is made worse by the fact that it will have to be organized along quasi-military lines. That’s not because the organizers want it; it’s because that’s the only way that has a hope in Hell of working on a group that big. Oh, there won’t be “colonels” or “sergeants”, but at the imminent risk of Godwinization I will note that the Schutzstaffel managed to solve that problem. “Senior Group Leader” works just as well as “colonel”. Now picture yourself as a mid-to-senior functionary of, say, China, Brazil, Russia… Obama (May His Name Be Praised As Hope Of Mankind) assures us that the purpose of that force is entirely internal and peaceful, except where it will be used in an advisory capacity. Are you gonna believe that? With five millenia of contrary experience available in milliseconds, and after half a century of the international Left telling everyone that everything the United States does, down to its citizens getting dressed in the morning, is by definition imperialist? Hell, I don’t believe it. Neither will anyone else. Civil liberties are a smokescreen, as demonstrated by “Neil Masters” — they’ll be happy as Hell to “debate” the proposal on those terms. Structurally, demographically, and in terms of international politics, it’s absodamnlutely fucking insane unless Obama (Whose Name Be Praised as Defender of the Meek) plans to conquer the world. Which is looking more and more possible every day. Regards, Ric Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 9:38 am # How about we target the deadbeats? We need to get those bums who accept public aid to do some Ã¢â‚¬Å“community service.Ã¢â‚¬Â Carin, as I mentioned upthread, what happens if someone gets inured, emotionally or physically? ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a matter of liability, which will be picked up by the taxpayer anyway, and probably at a greater expense. Well, I’m not for this plan anyway, but I just found it ironic that Baracky is most likely targeting people who are contributing to society already by the virtue of DOING something with their life. Those aren’t the people who need to get off their asses. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 9:43 am # Workhouses for bums on public aid is an old concept. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not so much for that either, since a lot of those bums are truly disabled persons, weak or sick and the largest portion not capable or fit to function like able-bodied people. I’m not talking workhouses. I’m talking giving back to the community. Generations of unmarried moms on welfare. Certainly they are capable of doing SOMETHING. I wanted to help out at this joint teaching people to read. You’d think I’d be capable seeing as though I have a MAT with a reading endorsement. But, no. I had to take some two-day, all-day long seminar before I was allowed to teach people how to read. I don’t have that kind of free time, what with my LIFE. So, I passed. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 9:45 am # Ric, I’m never going to try reading anything you write about Obama, while eating or drinking! Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 9:48 am # Carin: First, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you guys SLEEP? I’ll be going to sleep in another hour or two. Happy? ;-) Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 9:49 am # >>Those arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the people who need to get off their asses. The deadbeats are already pwned. People are livestock, a standing reserve. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 9:50 am # After “Neil Masters” first comment, I experienced narcolepsy every time his name reappeared. Does that count? Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 9:51 am # …contributing to society… With concepts like that, Carin, we will have already lost the game. Comment by casper99 on 11/13 @ 9:52 am # I do love the Grateful Dead song “Ripple”. But every time I hear it in my head, it morphs into the “Horst Wessel Lied”. Please tell me I’m not the only one. Comment by L Wayne on 11/13 @ 9:54 am # RE: Barry’s Brownshirt Brigade and compulsory service – Is there some sort of word filter in place that has rendered welfare recipient as college student in this thread? Comment by HeatherRadish on 11/13 @ 9:56 am # Generations of unmarried moms on welfare. Certainly they are capable of doing SOMETHING. …you can’t even make them take sufficient care of their own spawn without someone screaming that you’re violating their civil rights. Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 9:58 am # It is, BTW, completely ridiculous to think that banning automatic firearms and even sweeping through to collect them [at grave risk] will ever eliminate them. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 9:58 am # What are you guys worried about. Incompetence? Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 9:58 am # It is my belief (and I believe history supports it) that wealth and freedom are directly related. Really, Wealth and freedom! Hand in hand! That’s stupidest empty fuckin’ platitude I’ve read in quite some time. And that’s saying something because I read PW daily. How’d that freedom and wealth work out for you the last eight years under Bush? Them Marxists and Socialists in Russia, India and China created tens of millions of new jobs and mountains of new wealth. Land of the Free and Wealthy, not so much. Bearer bonds, ya Slarti, good luck finding those in any quantity. It’s been a registered and/or book-entry only world for how many years now? Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 10:00 am # >>Generations of unmarried moms on welfare. Certainly they are capable of doing SOMETHING. They’re already producing more Democrats, WTF more do you want? Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:01 am # And in pops thor, incapable of sitting at the table and talk ideas. Wealth? Freedom? Nah, not this clown. Not when there’s miscellaneous partisan bullshit and unfounded assumptions to throw in the air. Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 10:02 am # >>Them Marxists and Socialists in Russia, India and China created tens of millions of new jobs and mountains of new wealth. Perverse. There’s mountains of skulls grinning back at you. Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 10:03 am # Y’know, it would be worth us going into another Dark Age just so that the thors of the world will be culled. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:06 am # He’d just slug you in the forehead, pledgepolish55. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 10:07 am # How’re their markets doing right now? Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:08 am # heyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re already producing more Democrats, WTF more do you want? heh. But, a tad too close to the truth to be truly funny. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:09 am # Carin, I’ve got no MAT. But I have taught my own child and a few others to read. It seems that is the most needed thing of all, and wonder why public schools have so much trouble accomplishing it. In my wildest daydreams I have a little readers workshop. I’m thinking an outlaw outfit. Comment by Texan99 on 11/13 @ 10:11 am # Hear, hear to both 133 and 143, not to mention Ric Locke at 188. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 10:13 am # Reign of Terror. Ever hear of it? Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:13 am # Welfare aid to families with dependent children ought to be for widows and married women whose husband’s have gone AWOL. Subsidizing unwed motherhood seems to encourage more of it. Whose brilliant idea was that, anyway? Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 10:13 am # HowÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d that freedom and wealth work out for you the last eight years under Bush? Well, I, for one, am better off today than I was 8 years ago. I make more money, I have more stuff, ummmm…. yeah. True. Should I be punished? Do I feel bad? Will you suck my balls? Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:14 am # Husbands who run away always have superfluous apostrophes. :) Comment by pledgepolish55 on 11/13 @ 10:14 am # I believe it was the brilliant idea of a political machine trying to make itself a perpetual motion political machine. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 10:15 am # Good point Roland! I’m alot better off! Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:15 am # Carin, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve got no MAT. But I have taught my own child and a few others to read. It seems that is the most needed thing of all, and wonder why public schools have so much trouble accomplishing it. In my wildest daydreams I have a little readers workshop. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m thinking an outlaw outfit. Well, since you prolly didn’t take the two day, all-day long course, I think I’m going to have to report you. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:19 am # Thor, as if being rich or poor had nothing to do with myself, or my freedom to make choices with my own money and power to earn it. As if Bush ruled my destiny. In any case I’d rather be free to fail or succeed than be a secure slave. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 10:20 am # If they want to do some community service they should just go work as a day laborer for 50 hours. One week in that job will probably have these little nitwits entire worldview flipped. Hell they probably start crying the first time they get concrete poisoning or hit their finger with a hammer. Try digging a ditch for 40 hours a week and then watch the government take over 12 hours of wages earned by your effort and see how pissed you get. Especially you are working 12 hours a week just to pay for someone elses kid to go to college or give money to some bum who doesn’t work. Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 10:21 am # My mother taught me to read before kindergarten. I in turn did the heavy lifting with my son so that he could read well above grade level. Parents obligation to me. My writing isn’t up there however. That never took. Comment by HeatherRadish on 11/13 @ 10:21 am # I’m way better off than I was in 2000, but it’s because in 2001 I decided to stop sitting around feeling sorry for myself and start applying for real jobs, and not from anything GWB did or anything Barry O is proposing. I’m sure suggesting other people do the same for themselves is racist. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 10:22 am # “Statue of FuckinÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Liberty, ever hear of it?” Which one, the real one or the dildo model you have shoved up your ass? Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 10:23 am # Russia Stocks Slide, Kuwait Shuts as Oil Roils Emerging Markets Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 10:25 am # I think these aholes just want to cement the idea in your head that not only do you OWE the government, but that you should look to it as the solution to all your problems. Once those ideas are firm and take hold in the majority of people we are all fucked. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:26 am # Of course the French socialists and Americans fighting for democracy inspired each other Resulting in the immediate establishment of Socialist States of America. Replete with large iconic copper figurine. You spectacularly ignorant, insufferable lunatic. To you an idea is antimatter. Comment by Patrick Chester on 11/13 @ 10:28 am # “Uh, sir, why not go–well, go the limit? Require everyone to serve and let everybody vote?” “Young man, can you restore my eyesight?” “Sir? Why, no sir!” “You would find it much easier than to instill moral virtue–social responsibility–into a person who doesn’t have it, doesn’t want it, and resents having the burden thrust on him. This is why we make it so hard to enroll, so easy to resign. Social responsibility above the level of family, or at most of tribe, requires imagination–devotion, loyalty, all of the higher virtues–which a man must develop himself; if he has them forced down him, he will vomit them out. -OCS History and Moral Philosophy course, from Starship Troopers. …and Neil wonders why people distrust him so. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 10:30 am # I think these aholes just want to cement the idea in your head that not only do you OWE the government, but that you should look to it as the solution to all your problems. It’s a feedback loop. If, big if, there is a lack of community spirit of giving, it’s because the gubmint has been trying to be mommy to everyone since LBJ’s fucking “Great Society”. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 10:32 am # Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:09 am # Carin, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve got no MAT. But I have taught my own child and a few others to read. It seems that is the most needed thing of all, and wonder why public schools have so much trouble accomplishing it. Strange, I’m a product of public schools, meaning elementary through university. And I didn’t pretend to want teach persons to read, I joined the literacy council funded by my county, filled out all the paperwork, patiently say through meetings that explained how the literacy council was funded, it’s primary constituents, what services were offered, what volunteers and staff do, and then I gave my time, then I gave my money. While you talk, I do the walk, me and my public education give. And I’ll tell you who, primarily, I’ve given to, those immigrants, those with extra melatonin, who came here, already half-physically dead, who proceeded to do jobs like moving furniture, changing oil at Quik E Lubes, washing the fuckin’ dishes, ya, I helped them. But that’s not who these shit-people you so quickly spit on wanted me to help. The shit-people brought me their smiling sons and daughters, struggling in classes, grade school, highschool even college, because that’s who these lazy shit-people from Haiti, Jamaica and Guyana wanted me to spend most of my donated time helping. And you know what, those lazy shit-people’s children were fuckin’ alive! They wanted! Crazy fuckers! They wanted to go to medical school, wanted to get graduate degrees and become welfare-state professors and educators, some just wanted to become nurses, restaurant managers or convenience store owners, because, as you know how these shit-people work the game, they wanted to make money to send home to grandma and grandpa, to make the quick American money to pay for ballet classes for their kids – yeah, true story, ballet classes! Fuckin’ these ugly brown shit-people want their kids in to be in Swan Lake! They’re so stupid. Fuckin’ Marxists, all of ‘em. Welfare fucks! Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 10:32 am # Failure is not only an option, it’s gottdamn strategy! Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 10:34 am # There is some serious, well financed, Ã¢â‚¬Å“community organizedÃ¢â‚¬Â, astroturfing going on. That I find troubling. “Progressives” aren’t going to stop with merely winning the “first majority”. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:34 am # It’s finally gone mad. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 10:39 am # Does anyone else just scroll thru thor’s comments without reading? I find it increases my enjoyment here. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 10:39 am # First, donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you guys SLEEP? I’ve been trying to learn how to. But then here comes another freaking moron trying to “help” me. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:39 am # Excuse me thor? I don’t look down on people who come to this country for opportunity and who struggle to become literate in a foreign language. I congratulate on every worthy effort you’ve made to be of service to others. Why would you think anyone would crack on that? Maybe you missed the part where I actually have taught children to read. Oops, without forms! Without councils! Shocking behaviour, I’m sure. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 10:42 am # Thor, all snark aside, I am with you. Public education can suck ass. But I see thousands of kids come into this institution every day who would have never had a chance without their crappy public school. They become successful members of society by the boatload. If we throw the whole system away because we don’t want to think about the problems with public schools – what will happen to all of those kids? Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:42 am # . And I didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t pretend to want teach persons to read, I joined the literacy council funded by my county, filled out all the paperwork, patiently say through Strange that you know I was pretending to want to help. Funny, that I pretended SO FUCKING HARD I can practically remember going to the school and getting a tour and information. It wasn’t until they told me about the two-day (all day) course I need to take that I realized I couldn’t do it. I was nursing a baby at the time, and that made a day away from home impossible. I mean, in my pretend version, that’s how I imagine it went. Comment by Pablo on 11/13 @ 10:43 am # I’m wondering how thor managed to fit all that between downing vodka shots and getting punched in the face. Comment by Salt Lick on 11/13 @ 10:44 am # Now picture yourself as a mid-to-senior functionary of, say, China, Brazil, RussiaÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Obama (May His Name Be Praised As Hope Of Mankind) assures us that the purpose of that force is entirely internal and peaceful, except where it will be used in an advisory capacity. Are you gonna believe that? I can do it, Ric. Yes I can! Lots of people don’t realize how this stuff works, and they don’t realize how easily it can be aimed at them. E.g. — Government establishes an organization. Organization members live throughout society. Members are told to help improve their communities by watching out for harmful behavior. When I was a foster parent, I got reported twice for child abuse. I was cleared both times. By law, my accusers remained anonymous, but I was able to determine who they were from circumstances. In each case, my accuser was someone with whom I’d had a conflict about child-rearing practices. One person was a teacher who was angry when I took my boy off Ritalin EVEN THOUGH HE HAD *NEVER* BEEN DIAGNOSED FOR ADHD AND HAD NOT GAINED A SINGLE POUND IN 1 1/2 YEARS. My other accuser was a mom who got mad at me when I spoke sharply (no touching) to her misbehaving son in Cub Scouts, where I was Cubmaster. Luckily, we’ve got due process in America. But for how long when our constitutional law scholar president says he thinks courts should apply themselves to redistributing wealth? Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 10:44 am # Wow, think of it. All of those fatassed mini-Jonah Goldbergs having to do something. That is going to be Teh Suck. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:44 am # Thor, ooh, and I taught Latin, too. Because of the subversiveness. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 10:45 am # Oh-noes, another ranting claim of philanthropy…on the intertubs, no less. I’m impressed! I don’t see the connection to what SarahW was referring to, but then again, I don’t have voices in my head that I carry on a conversation with. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 10:45 am # Hey Lisa how are you going to perform your 50 hours of community service? Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:45 am # If we throw the whole system away because we donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to think about the problems with public schools – what will happen to all of those kids? Lisa, you and thor sure are doing a bang-up job with that straw man argument up there. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 10:46 am # # Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:15 am # Carin, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve got no MAT. But I have taught my own child and a few others to read. It seems that is the most needed thing of all, and wonder why public schools have so much trouble accomplishing it. In my wildest daydreams I have a little readers workshop. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m thinking an outlaw outfit. Well, since you prolly didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t take the two day, all-day long course, I think IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to have to report you. Might want to check that Socialism-based institution known as your public freaking library. I’m certain you’ll find you’ve been beaten to the dream-punch. They’ve workshops! Reading clubs! For toddlers! For teenagers! For adults! For senior citizens! Oh, but you wanted to be the One, sorry. I forgot it’s all about you. Fuck if you’ll do paperwork, listen to some other volunteer or some welfare-state employee tell you how organized efforts work. For you’re an Outlaw, so fuck that bullshit. Comment by PR on 11/13 @ 10:47 am # While you talk, I do the walk, me and my public education give. You give and you give and you give huh? You want a pat on the back for doing what is going to be the minimum? Sorry fuckstick, but Obama isn’t going to let you be uninvolved, so what you contribute ain’t special. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 10:47 am # Who’s talking about throwing the whole system away? Baracky is. Him wants a more better one erected in his name. So him and his woman can be proud of their fatherland. Dirty socialist dreamings on such a winter’s day I think. They’re a fucking joke. Comment by donald on 11/13 @ 10:48 am # The only person I want to spit on is you Thor. You baby. Because you’re just the kind of guy who deserves it. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 10:48 am # Anyone for this crap has a serious mental problem. There is just no other way to describe it. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:49 am # r some welfare-state employee tell you how organized efforts work. baha ahaa haaa haaa… Comment by daleyrocks on 11/13 @ 10:50 am # What I want to know is whether they are going to serve lattes and have the Sunday Times delivered to the barracks. I think the only sensible approach to this compulsory volunteerism is to refuse all compensation or tax credits on principle. The Outlaw Way! Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:50 am # But I see thousands of kids come into this institution every day who would have never had a chance without their crappy public school. They become successful members of society by the boatload. If we throw the whole system away because we donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to think about the problems with public schools – what will happen to all of those kids? Sigh. All that because you, like thor, haven’t the scope or integrity to see thousands of kids who would have had a vastly superior chance had the crappy public school not been inflicted onto the nation in the first place. Go back to comment 133. Successful members of society are generated by the boatload by freedom, markets, and hope, not central fiat. If we throw the whole system away because we finally fathom the inherent problems with government schools, what will happen to all of those kids is progress. Prove me wrong. The private sector provides double the academic value. And then there’s that whole it’s-not-enumerated-in-the-first-place originalist thing that goes to seriously questioning the constitutional legitimacy of government education, but having lost you up top, nevermind. Again. You two only do what you’re told. Led by the nose. Celine! Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 10:51 am # The Wisdom Underground! I am getting me some of them thigh-high boots. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 10:51 am # # Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 10:42 am # Thor, all snark aside, I am with you. Public education can suck ass. But I see thousands of kids come into this institution every day who would have never had a chance without their crappy public school. They become successful members of society by the boatload. If we throw the whole system away because we donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t want to think about the problems with public schools – what will happen to all of those kids? Education is and has always been about self-motivation, well, at the point one is capable of self-motivation, meaning starting around high school age for most. You get what you put into it, always, whether at a public or private institution. Obama was Presdient of Harvard Law Review. George Bush was a cheerleader at Yale. Enough said about that. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 10:52 am # Socialism really pisses thor off. Check it out. Must be the benevolence and good will. Come by here one day, thor. Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 10:52 am # >>Wow, think of it. All of those fatassed mini-Jonah Goldbergs having to do something. That is going to be Teh Suck. Jonah contributes to society more than you. Unless, of course, you really don’t value Diversity. Which, really, I suspect you do not. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 10:53 am # George Bush freed people. Baracky conscripts them for his dirty socialist masturbatory pleasures. A nation perverted is what dances in his dreams. Comment by DarthRove on 11/13 @ 10:54 am # Patrick Chester, I re-read Starship Troopers every Veteran’s Day. Quite a read, it is. Comment by Jeff G. on 11/13 @ 10:56 am # To be fair — and I’ve pointed this out before — those who can afford private schools won’t have to participate in this program. Presumably, their wealth guarantees that they already know what it “means to be an American.” There’s an irony to that I’d like to see Charlie Rangel grapple with. Once he’s done with the pomade. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 10:58 am # Sigh. All that because you, like thor, havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t the scope or integrity to see thousands of kids who would have had a vastly superior chance had the crappy public school not been inflicted onto the nation in the first place. Go back to comment 133. Successful members of society are generated by the boatload by freedom, markets, and hope, not central fiat. If we throw the whole system away because we finally fathom the inherent problems with government schools, what will happen to all of those kids is progress. Prove me wrong. The private sector provides double the academic value. I’ll prove you wrong. Celine. You forget I lived and worked in Russia. Public schools for 99.99% of the population. I’m here to tell ya, boy, they don’t need us to teach ‘em to read or write in Russia. The streets are filled with unemployed Physicists and Poets. Educated to the teeth, all of ‘em, at crappy public institutions was created the highest literacy rate of any population. They got street whores that can recite more lines of poetry than you’ve ever read, likely. Tell me more of your Americanoidessions. I find them so fascinating. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 10:58 am # Baracky’s kids are gonna go to private school in DC. Honestly, though, you can’t expect them to mingle with the proles. Comment by JD on 11/13 @ 10:59 am # There is a quote in there about people sharing a common experience, like living in the barracks or riding the train. It seemed so strange and creepy to me. Just sayin’ Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 11:00 am # Success ~~Education~~ is and has always been about self-motivation, well, at the point one is capable of self-motivation, ……. Fixed that for you. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:00 am # “Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 10:32 am # Strange, IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m a product of public schools, meaning elementary through university.” Not so strange. Glaringly obvious. Comment by daleyrocks on 11/13 @ 11:00 am # Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 10:42 am # Thor, all snark aside, I am with you. Public education can suck ass. But I see thousands of kids come into this institution every day who would have never had a chance without their crappy public school. I don’t know Lisa, I see those drop outs become drug dealers, NcDonalds workers or worst case they can even become politicians. Those drug dealers always seem to drive nice new cars and wear a lot of bling. Is that wrong? It seems like capitalism at work. Politicians are a lot like drug dealers I think. In Chicago, we have a lot of crooked politicians who could not function in the real world off the government dole. Have you heard of a guy we call “nickels?” And McDonals workers, are you hating on McDonalds workers? Racist. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 11:00 am # and wonder why public schools have so much trouble accomplishing it [reading skilz]. I was quite stunned once when, at the age of six, one of my kids suddenly began to read to me out loud “The Last of the Mohichans”, with the book placed upside down no less. But the contrast of this with the Gubment’s version of “help” is even more stunning. Comment by L Wayne on 11/13 @ 11:01 am # Comment by urthshu on 11/13 @ 10:52 am # >>Unless, of course, you really donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t value Diversity. Which, really, I suspect you do not.<< You capitalized diversity… Everybody drink! Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:02 am # Thor, a racist? Get out! I can’t believe it. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 11:02 am # Gee, thor, why do you think public schools work in Russia, but now here? The failures of public schools were not born when they were created. They have developed over time. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 11:04 am # IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll prove you wrong. Waiting. As always, you isolate, make a minor assumption, get pissy, and create an entire universe of it. You fail at comprehending systems much the same way you do about civilization. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:05 am # “Wow, think of it. All of those fatassed mini-Jonah Goldbergs having to do something. That is going to be Teh Suck.” All snark aside I do believe defending this load of horseshit is pretty freakin low. Whether you want to couch it in terms of insulting us by calling us fat or making fun of us for rightfully looking at this as quasi-fascist, it is pretty low. There is no possible way you would support this if Prez Bush enacted it. No freakin way. I have seen intellectual dishonesty before but this takes my breathe away. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:08 am # “Obama was Presdient of Harvard Law Review. George Bush was a cheerleader at Yale. Enough said about that.” George Bush was a jet fighter pilot. Obama was Presdient of Harvard Law Review. Well alrighty then. Comment by Spiny Norman on 11/13 @ 11:08 am # I think the insertion of the word Ã¢â‚¬Å“PursuitÃ¢â‚¬Â is the most awesome word. It means Ã¢â‚¬Å“the government shall not get in your way.Ã¢â‚¬Â Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pursuit of HappinessÃ¢â‚¬ÂÃ¢â‚¬Â¦thereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s so much in that statement. Libs must feel that pursuit just isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t enough. As I recall Ã¢â‚¬â€ though this may be apocryphal Ã¢â‚¬â€ the original phrase was Ã¢â‚¬Å“Pursuit of PropertyÃ¢â‚¬Â. It also works if you use the word Ã¢â‚¬Å“pursuitÃ¢â‚¬Â in the sense of Ã¢â‚¬Å“jobÃ¢â‚¬Â. Jefferson’s original text read “Life, Liberty and Property”, as noted, very much John Locke. Ben Franklin inserted the much broader phrase “the Pursuit of Happiness” over Jefferson’s initial objections. Thor, you drunken idiot, as wealthy, propertied men, the Founders likely found Rousseau’s romantic “Natural Man” nonsense endlessly amusing, but it in no way influenced their philosophy. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:08 am # Hey thor how about you mount a defense of President Bush’s civil defense corp and his plan to make all high school and college kids perform 50 hours of community service a year? Screw it instead of that just beat your hands with a hammer until you can’t type anymore that would perform a greater service to mankind. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:09 am # Ã¢â‚¬Å“Obama was Presdient of Harvard Law Review. George Bush was a cheerleader at Yale. Enough said about that.Ã¢â‚¬Â George Bush was Governor of Texa. Obama was a community organizer. Well alrighty then. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:09 am # Texas, he repeated. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 11:10 am # Luckily, weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve got due process in America. But for how long when our constitutional law scholar president says he thinks courts should apply themselves to redistributing wealth? Don’t count on that lasting too much longer. Nishi’s attitude towards due process isn’t all that unusual. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:10 am # Thor, is it not logical that instruction methods in American public schools might be part of the problem? Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 11:11 am # BarackyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s kids are gonna go to private school in DC. Honestly, though, you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t expect them to mingle with the proles. Yeah Carter tried sending his kid to a public school. It was a nightmare, what with the security and such. Amy Carter has talked about how it sucked hard, not because the school was a violent cesspool, but because all of her security landed her in the ‘freak’ social group almost immediately. The staff was annoyed with all of the press and special considerations that had to be made. It was not a good situation. I am sure it would be fun times for Sasha and Malia with a bunch of guys with ear peices trailing them everywhere at some public school. Most politicians, diplomats, and other VIPs send their kids to Sidwell Friends Quaker School. I think some send their boys to Georgetown Preparatory School. Both schools are old hands at handling these kids and their security details. Comment by cranky-d on 11/13 @ 11:14 am # One wonders if there is any correlation between children whose parents don’t read to them, parents that don’t read in front of their children, and their children not being able to read well. I have the feeling such a correlation exists, and is quite high. The failure of public schools is both a failure of the schools to be teaching what’s important and a failure of parents to do their job of teaching their kids. Plenty of blame to go around. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 11:15 am # There is no possible way you would support this if Prez Bush enacted it. No freakin way. I have seen intellectual dishonesty before but this takes my breathe away. Prez Bush would never have done it. Remember, he doesn’t feel we need to actually pay for wars or even sacrifice ourselves to fight them. We should go out to the mall and shop and show the terrorists that they can’t take our freedom. Yay! I have to go. I need to drop by the Coach outlet and show the evildoers that they can’t destroy my freedom. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:15 am # Hahahhahahaha. So then Lisa why to Senators and Congressmen, who are virtual unknowns usually and whose children do not require security details, also send their kids to private school? Freakin hilarious. What are you going to do for an encore defend Al Gores use of private jets to fly around the world while he advocates punative carbon taxes for everyone else? Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 11:15 am # Carin, public schools not only work, they’re awesomeness is to behold. Public schools work wherever persons have motivation to learn. In America, there are many people who want to learn, so sorry to pop your slogan bubbles. That’s the difference between you and I, Carin, I don’t believe all your recieved slogans. I gots me a colonial edumacatoin. Get involved in a literacy program, whether funded by private donations of public, and you’ll meet persons who want to read, to write, who want to learn, who want to be educated Americans. They don’t walk-in, swallow their pride, and ask for help because the lazy-fucks your hubby won’t hire. Nope, these literacy beggars are usually looking for that hand-up (Redumblican code word warning!). Maybe one day, after volunteering, you’ll drop your better-than-thou attitude after you see what many of those shit-people achieve with their minds and motivations. God forbid, you might even touch minds with a Marxist, who you’ll enjoy talking to and become friends with. I say give it a go, girl. Comment by ginsocal on 11/13 @ 11:15 am # thor, being editor of the law review means precisely nothing.Mnay law students get that title as a way of boosting their resume. Feel free to show any writing that O! did as editor of said review. Just to diplay his chops, so to speak. BTW, I think that what O! and rest of the leftards are reaching for here is most closely associated with Fascism, rahter than socialism. They quite obviously don’t have a plan, or even a destination, based on the deafining silence about those two subjects. They juast want to keep moving, arrogating power to the government along the way. Liberal Fascism clearly describes this mindset as being common in Progressiveland. “The issue is not the issue” and all. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:16 am # “Prez Bush would never have done it. Remember, he doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feel we need to actually pay for wars or even sacrifice ourselves to fight them. We should go out to the mall and shop and show the terrorists that they canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t take our freedom. Yay!” Nice verbal dodge by the way. I will take that as a no. Comment by Spiny Norman on 11/13 @ 11:19 am # Thor, is it not logical that instruction methods in American public schools might be part of the problem? No kidding. What exactly did Billy Ayers and Barack Obama do with that $150 million from the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, because it certainly did nothing to improve education in Chicago. Comment by cranky-d on 11/13 @ 11:20 am # Oh, and what Lisa said about the private school for Obama’s kids, and indeed the children of other DC politicians. Much easier to have all the kids used to being around security details than go through the motions of sending the kids to public school. I wish the pols were more in touch with what is going on in public schools. Then again, I want the Feds out of that business anyway. It should be up to the states, or the people. Comment by JD on 11/13 @ 11:21 am # Now that I have read the comments, I would like to volunteer to kick Kneel Before My Master in the teeth. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 11:21 am # So, before this time … the reason Baracky sent his kids to private school was ….? Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 11:22 am # No kidding. What exactly did Billy Ayers and Barack Obama do with that $150 million from the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, because it certainly did nothing to improve education in Chicago. The evidence I’ve heard makes it clear they were intent on not improving education in Chicago. The money went to their radical friends, to racialist groups, to anything but education. If you assume they were attempting to improve education, they failed. If you look at what they succeeded in doing, their goals become clear: siphoning charity money into their own pockets, the pockets of like-minded people, and fostering further division in American society. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 11:23 am # # Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:10 am # Thor, is it not logical that instruction methods in American public schools might be part of the problem? Is it not logical that to be poor in Russia sucks a lot worse than to be poor here in America and therefore they work harder at education for reasons of self-motivation, yes, in a Socialist society they don’t won’t to end up living on the streets, because, as you know, in Moscow, especially in the winter, they collect the bodies every morning of those on the street who didn’t make it through the night, who shivered until their hearts gave way. You big softy in the heart and head, It’s A Cruel Fuckin’ World Out There! Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 11:23 am # No reply from thor. Being perpetually concept challenged, what’s evidently incomprehensible to him is that there’s no reason to prefer government school to those created by free markets. He gets all tangled up in the fact that the US and Russia, having state school systems, both have ~99% literacy rates. To thor, that Washington regardless spends record amounts per capita to churn out unending compromise naturally validates Russia’s. The option of a free market system, also capable of turning out ~99% literacy at much lower cost, higher satisfaction, and while allowing freer choice, never makes it to the screen. thorlogic on parade. Of course, none of that was the point. Choice, freedom, and the part where government education wasn’t exactly originalist was. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:23 am # Carin I am starting to figure that logic can not defeat willful stupidity. Keep trying though. ps. Neither of these three on this thread would be defending this action if Bush had done it. None of them. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 11:25 am # My grandaughter, K., who just turned 5, gave me her response to the concept of forced good acts: ~”No, I wouldn’t do it.” If someone tried to force her to do good things she also said, “Then I would eat giant cookies all day.” K wants me to publish this. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:26 am # If a goal of the terrorists, and it was a stated goal, was to undermine the economy by not only destroying financial centers but by creating fear that would bring the economy to a standstill, it seems a logical exhortation to go about business as usual. YMMV. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 11:26 am # It’s gonna take forever to get the dirty socialist stench out of our White House I think. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:27 am # My grandaughter, K., who just turned 5, gave me her response to the concept of forced good acts: ~Ã¢â‚¬ÂNo, I wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t do it.Ã¢â‚¬Â If someone tried to force her to do good things she also said, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Then I would eat giant cookies all day.Ã¢â‚¬Â Free will. That’s America, buddy. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 11:28 am # Sarah, you’re debating against the lefts’ religious beliefs. The reasons for any event no longer matter when the left has announced their Pravda. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 11:29 am # Nitpicking obvious snark is kind of a timewaster, thor; right up there with answering rhetorical questions. Just think about how much potential community service time you’re wasting, here. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 11:30 am # thor, come rake my leaves, bitch. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # Lisa’s use of 911 and some of Bush’s response to it was just a smokescreen she threw up instead of answering my question. Also with a little Bush hatred to go in the mix. The question was would she support this load of horseshit if Bush had proposed it. The answer is no. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 11:22 am # No kidding. What exactly did Billy Ayers and Barack Obama do with that $150 million from the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, because it certainly did nothing to improve education in Chicago. The evidence IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve heard makes it clear they were intent on not improving education in Chicago. The money went to their radical friends, to racialist groups, to anything but education. Has it ever occurred to you that you’re wrong? That your beliefs are based on self-elevation, making yourself feel good? You impugn the motives of William Ayers. He’s written fifteen books. And you? Maybe America by voting Barack Obama into office is telling you to go fuck your lazy self-aggrandizing self in the ass, pal. Your self-elevating narratives are exploitations of cowardice. Consider doing something other than spend all your days brow-beating and impugning others. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # So you’re saying that poor people in America have it too soft, and that’s why they don’t learn? Or that Literacy is useless? Or that Socialism isn’t very good at protecting people? Or that they sweep russian bodies out of the snow because socialism works well? What is it you are trying to prove with this comparison? Comment by Sticky B on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # I’ve been waiting a long time for my “teachable moment” to arrive and it finally has. I’ll be teaching civil disobedience like I’m some kinda latter day Henry David Thoreau. I may even dig a pond in my back yard. Meanwhile, my children will be preparing themselves for a lifetime of compensated service to the community in whatever field they desire. After all, the only way a capitalist can make money is to provide a good or service to his fellow man. I’ll pay the fine or do the time for them if need be. I don’t mind spending my retirement years fighting “the man” as long as I get to bathe regularly. Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:32 am # Thor, his books are garbage. And you left out one of them, anyway. Comment by MarkD on 11/13 @ 11:32 am # I denounce myself for teaching English to foreigners without the appropriate license and permits. Is that enough? I apologize for thinking that the Obama children will not set foot in a public school in Washington DC. I’m a bad man for wanting the advantages I’ve worked for for my children, whereas the One is obviously concerned for the welfare of all Americans when he sends his kids to private school. That is how it works, correct? Pingback by The Right To Bear Arms » Community Service on 11/13 @ 11:33 am # [...] still some speculation that it will still be mandatory as Rahm Emmanuel says here, so we’re not sure what to [...] Comment by JD on 11/13 @ 11:36 am # I mean really, I volunteer, without coersion, to kick Neil in the teeth. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 11:36 am # Something in a turtle what loves a pond I think. More ponds, please, if our nascent cadre of Baracky Yoot are taking requests. What else is nice are paddleboats. Comment by JD on 11/13 @ 11:37 am # You impugn the motives of William Ayers. HeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s written fifteen books. And you? Good Allah. The level of aggressive ignorance required to simply type that must be unbearably painful. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 11:38 am # You impugn the motives of William Ayers. He’s engaged in terrorism against the American People, and you? Again, fixed that for you. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 11:42 am # ). Maybe one day, after volunteering, youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll drop your better-than-thou attitude after you see what many of those shit-people achieve with their minds and motivations. I just had to see that one again. Honestly thor, you’re an idiot. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 11:48 am # Shit people, got no reason to live…. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:49 am # For some reason I read that as “Georgetown Predatory School.” Where Bill Clinton graduated. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 11:50 am # It is interesting that thor classifies people as “shit-people”. Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/13 @ 11:53 am # Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # It comes down to this: thor You. Are. A. Dick. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:01 pm # Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # So youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re saying that poor people in America have it too soft, and thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s why they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t learn? Or that Literacy is useless? Or that Socialism isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t very good at protecting people? Or that they sweep russian bodies out of the snow because socialism works well? What is it you are trying to prove with this comparison? During the day I, like most of you wingers, have my phone full of despicable creatures involved in capitalist activities so I can’t respond to posts quickly nor do so absent of one-handedidly chicken pecking my keyboard. Sarah you mentioned American methods of teaching and I responded with an example meant to suggest there’s a lot more to it than that, moreover my example was an extension from my earlier self-motivation as catalyst in education thesis. We’re all lucky to be Americans. That doesn’t mean we are in any way smarter nor more self-motivated nor by rote of birth-luck the flesh by which proves America is systematically superior in all ways to other countries. Only a fool would suggest otherwise, yet there’s a fool born every minute according to P.T. Barnum, or whoever/whatever schmuck first said that. The generalities of Socialism are refracted hyperbole borne of ignorance and ultimately meant as a method to divide people. We’re One, Sisters, Brothers, meant to carry each other. Don’t you capitalist pigs even own the CD? Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:03 pm # # Comment by N. O’Brain on 11/13 @ 11:53 am # Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 11:31 am # It comes down to this: thor You. Are. A. Dick. Then eat me. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 12:04 pm # Socialism is what they have in Venezuela. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:05 pm # Socialism is what they have in Switzerland. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 12:08 pm # National Socialism is what they had in Germany. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 12:09 pm # And we’re the ones arguing against creating the Obama Yugend. Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 11/13 @ 12:10 pm # thor: “You forget I lived and worked in Russia. Public schools for 99.99% of the population. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m here to tell ya, boy, they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t need us to teach Ã¢â‚¬Ëœem to read or write in Russia.” No, they need double column accounting, best practices courses and remedial ethics… although I suspect that local corporate panjandrums could also use the last. Oh, and the especially need to get a grip on the notion of “depreciation,” in a course sub-title “You can’t use fifties era nuclear technology indefinitely.” The Soviet system was a rum deal from the get-go, built on a mountain of skulls and a flood of blood. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:10 pm # You just keep on selling those vacuum cleaners, thor. Cause that’s what you’re good at. Comment by Pete on 11/13 @ 12:18 pm # Damn I hate to enter a mature fight, but sometimes you just can’t stay on the edges and watch. There’s been a pretty good beat down on Kneel, so that takes the fun out of making any more comments, and Thor never makes sense anyway, so I’ll start off on a slight tangent. Why in the hell do we want all these people to go to college? If they want to go, are qualified, and can afford it–fine. But our workforce requires ditch diggers, truck drivers, electricians, plumbers, construction workers, trashmen etc. A college education is overkill. What we end up with is a large segment of the population so overqualified that they won’t work at these jobs. And that encourages a large influx of illegals who will. Clinton tried to make college available to anyone who wanted to go, regardless of meeting minimum qualifications. But the minimums have been declining for years, which is why a significant portion of tuition costs and effort has been in remendial reading and math for incoming freshman at so many colleges. We’re due for a big crash soon, as we encourage more young folk to assume they deserve high paying jobs that don’t exist, while the grunt work fails to get done. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:19 pm # Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 11:23 am # No reply from thor. Being perpetually concept challenged, whatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s evidently incomprehensible to him is that thereÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s no reason to prefer government school to those created by free markets. He gets all tangled up in the fact that the US and Russia, having state school systems, both have ~99% literacy rates. To thor, that Washington regardless spends record amounts per capita to churn out unending compromise naturally validates RussiaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s. The option of a free market system, also capable of turning out ~99% literacy at much lower cost, higher satisfaction, and while allowing freer choice, never makes it to the screen. thorlogic on parade. What’s your definition of literate, that one can read a traffic stop sign? Russians, in general, are more literate than Americans. That doesn’t mean America’s most literate are not equal to Russia’s. But the fact are what they are. Russians love their poets and poetry. Call it a tradition, or what you will, but no honest evidence refutes my stated generality. Those collective fuckers love to read, and you might point to the shittiness of Russian TV or the lack of entertainment alternatives or the future decline of their literacy based in trends in Western countries, but the truth is what it is in the present. Explain away America’s general lack of elevated literacy. Entertain me. Comment by Carin on 11/13 @ 12:24 pm # Those collective fuckers love to read, and you might point to the shittiness of Russian TV or the lack of entertainment alternatives or the future decline of their literacy based in trends in Western countries, but the truth is what it is in the present. Explain away AmericaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s general lack of elevated literacy. Entertain me. I blame the US public school system. There are many contributing factors, but somehow it all gets back to that. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:24 pm # If I buy your argument thor, which I do not, that Americans have a general lack of elevated literacy when compared to Russia; that is probably because people in Russia’s lives suck so bad they have to read about places such as America in order to not think the entire world is like their tiny slice of hell and kill themselves. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 12:29 pm # You impugn the motives of William Ayers. HeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s written fifteen books. And you I wouldn’t be so stupid as to actually buy one of them, nor any of those BDS-model money making offerings, not to mention Michael Moore’s, etc., either. And you? There’s a willing sucker born every…… Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:30 pm # I’ve been to Russia so I know what I’m talking about. My girlfriend is Russian. They read poetry over there. That means our schools suck. And our schools suck because you rightwingers didn’t vote for Obama. Because when you winger assholes call for tougher standards in schools and merit promotions for teachers it just means you’re all racist homophobes. Only by weakening standards and paying every teacher $100k thousand dollars a year no matter how stupid they are can we make our schools as good as Russia’s. That’s what the people meant when they voted for Obama, even though everyone in America are ignorant sheep because our schools don’t teach poetry like what my girlfriend reads. She’s really hot, by the way. Did I mention that? She totally looks like that Ivana Fukalot porn star chick, who’s a Russian, too. Bet you didn’t know that because Americans are ignorant. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 12:31 pm # Explain away AmericaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s general lack of elevated literacy. Entertain me. Carin immediately did. Thank her. But as noted a hour ago, uncomprehending, post-truncating little nuisance half-person, “none of that was the point. Choice, freedom, and the part where government education wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t exactly originalist was.” Explain what infests your thoughts so circularly and persistently. Entertain me. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:34 pm # Explain away AmericaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s general lack of elevated literacy You already did: there isn’t anything better to do than read. I suspect that along with the disparity in immigrant volume covers a lot of it. Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 12:35 pm # If socialism pisses you off this much, thor, then go enjoy the crap out of it someplace. I’ll accept your ceding that you cannot name how Obama’s statism passes the constitutional test. Or the tests of reason and common sense. Or history. Or that you cannot connect the closest of any two dots. Thanks. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:36 pm # Explain why Russia is a thrice failed state, if they have all that poetry and shit. Drinking Vodka and reading peotry is no way to go through life son. But, if I am ever in need of a well read whore, I guess I’ll know where to find one. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:37 pm # peotry, it’s Russian you know. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 12:38 pm # Israel is not a hotbed of Nazism and you HAVE to serve at least two years in their army (and possibly get your ass blown off). I know we are deeply and profoundly lazy as a people, but we can skip a few episodes of Rock of Love to do something for Uncle Sam. Comrade S.T. Department of Whining Eradication Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:38 pm # Oh. Shit. I went and accepted thor’s anecdote-fueled opinion as fact. Not that it matters; I’m willing to stipulate. Still, it’d be nice to have something other than thor’s stream-of-opinion to talk about. Comment by Sdferr on 11/13 @ 12:40 pm # Yeah, Lisa, we had better re-militarize along Israeli lines pdq cause those Canadians and Mexicans have it in for us something awful! Too scary. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:42 pm # She’s got a point, actually, but Switzerland might have made it a better one. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:42 pm # The peacock strutting of your narcissistic over-confidence, JHo, is pure entertainment, similar to American Idol without the karaoke backdrop. Nationalism is fine to a point, then it dissolves into a heap of pandering back-slapping bigotry. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:42 pm # Damn Lisa, Isreal is just like the USA! Why didn’t any of these smart people here think of that? Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:42 pm # “I know we are deeply and profoundly lazy as a people,” Please speak for your fuckin self only. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:44 pm # it dissolves into a heap of pandering back-slapping bigotry Whereas the thor version of bigotry is ever so much more palatable? Depends, I’m guessing, on whether you’re thor or not. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:44 pm # Lisa would you mind if I started calling you thor? Seriously your defense of this crap is ludacris to the extreme. It doesn’t even sound like your buying it. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 12:44 pm # So Lisa, do you favor putting the military along the borders? If so, I might get on board! Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:45 pm # Isreal is just like the USA! Israel. Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:45 pm # I get a new machine gun!!!!1111!! Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:45 pm # #Comment by Roland THTG on 11/13 @ 12:36 pm # But, if I am ever in need of a well read whore, I guess IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll know where to find one. Where would those well-read whores be without illiterate boners. It’s a win-win. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 12:45 pm # Mr. Pink, you obviously haven’t banged enough Russian poet-whores to have an opinion that matters. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:46 pm # Lisa you and your family are deeply and profoundly lazy. How did that feel? Do you realize how freakin insulting you sound or are you trying to be thor junior? Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 12:48 pm # but we can skip a few episodes of Rock of Love to do something for Uncle Sam. Not to whine, but like fund its what-it-means-to-be-American classes? Unquestioningly support the Commander in Chief for a term or two? Elect it its very own ten-percent Congress? Help me fill in the blanks here, left-dependent. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:49 pm # “I know we are deeply and profoundly lazy as a people,” That is so profoundly insulting on so many levels. Go f@ck yourself. Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/13 @ 12:51 pm # but we can skip a few episodes of Rock of Love to do something for Uncle Sam I don’t want to. Why do you want to make me? Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 12:51 pm # [Lisa] Please speak for your fuckin self only. Hey, ain’t adhering to the maxim, “Thou shalt always remain as far behind the curve as possible”, a Universal Truth? Comment by JHoward on 11/13 @ 12:54 pm # Aw, play along, thor: Why so serious, magnificent Russian apologist? Collectivism got you down? Already? My advice is to go with that flow. And yeah, I’m confident: You are personally and uniquely the very finest argument against your own position, such as it ever the hell may be in its vague, ill-reasoned statist bent, imaginable. Proudly get me some gas. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 12:55 pm # # Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:49 pm # Ã¢â‚¬Å“I know we are deeply and profoundly lazy as a people,Ã¢â‚¬Â That is so profoundly insulting on so many levels. Go f@ck yourself. She’s too lazy to profoundly fuck herself. In the spirit of our new President-elect, Barack Obama, I will step forward and volunteer to fuck Lisa, or to make sweet love to her, as we like to refer to procreation in my Russia-respecting house of Love. I’m sure my wife won’t mind if I don’t take too long. Ha.Ho.He. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 12:56 pm # Whatever somehow I think she considers herself exempt from the “deeply and profoundly lazy as a peopleÃ¢â‚¬Â crowd. She is one of the “hard” working ones. You ever pour sweat out of a boot? If not you can kiss my ass. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 1:00 pm # Lisa, I’ll give you a little hint: simply repeating memes and/or mixing them to match themselves prn, will not cut it in Life. But, then again, I guess that’s exactly why you need Obama/Progressivism. And can’t no one break you out of it but yourself. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 1:02 pm # Bush stepped up to the podium to speak about capital markets and the capital markets immediately swung from positive to negative territory. Can’t someone talk Bush out the door a little earlier than previously planned? Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 1:03 pm # deeply and profoundly lazy as a people This may be true for the people in Lisa’s life, so why get spent about it if it’s not you’re experience. If she wants to characterize her family and friends in that manner, let her own it. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 1:05 pm # thor can’t wait for O! to start changing the constitution. There’s always impeachment. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 1:06 pm # She wants to lump me and mine into her little fucktastical imaginary catagories though Moss. Meanwhile anyone with 2 braincells could see she would vehemently oppose this if the dreaded Evil Booosh tried it. So not only is she insulting by calling me, my family, and my country lazy, she is insulting my intelligence. Comment by J. "Trashman" Peden on 11/13 @ 1:09 pm # Bush stepped up to the podium to speak about capital markets and the capital markets immediately swung from positive to negative territory Right, because he’s going to be the next President, don’tcha know. Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 11/13 @ 1:20 pm # thor: “IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been to Russia so I know what IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m talking about. My girlfriend is Russian. They read poetry over there. That means our schools suck. And our schools suck because you rightwingers didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t vote for Obama.” God, where to start… 1) You maybe know about the one city you were in, with the surrounding environs. You may have a clue to two about places you passed through. You do NOT know Russia. 2) Maybe they read poetry where you were. Your knowledge of the rest of the country is nil. 3) Your logic train for the rest of your post is so pretty much a post turtle — there is no sane way one goes from one point to another in your rant. Point of fact, thor, if liberalism and leftwing ideology were the keys to Utopia, Washington DC should be heaven on earth. Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/13 @ 1:24 pm # Pink, all I’m saying is that no one I know in my family and circle of friends fits her characterization, so I assume Lisa is referring to people she’s either related to, and/or friends with. I don’t expect her opinion of President Bush to be objective, which I think she’s admitted. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:16 pm # Pink I am glad you have fully revealed yourself. Good job! I am saving your meltdown for posterity. It was Teh Awesome. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:20 pm # I leave to go purse shopping and I come back to this madness. Shorter Pink, et al: Lazy?! Who are you calling lazy you fuckingbitchcuntwhoremotherfuckingslut!! Fuck you! You watch your mouth, bitch!!!!!1!!!!! That was completely delightful. Okay so now I know what it is like to be around touchy PC types. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 2:39 pm # Lisa, I tend to discount what you say because you’re illiterate. Maybe if you’d banged more Russian hooker-poets back in the day… Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:40 pm # Grabs Crawford and gets out her Instruments of Pain: Do you want to reinact that scene from Marathon man, buddy? (is it safe) Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:41 pm # Lisa, I tend to discount what you say because youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re illiterate. Maybe if youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d banged more Russian hooker-poets back in the dayÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ I knew something was missing from my life. Comment by geoffb on 11/13 @ 2:42 pm # “After all, the only way a capitalist can make money is to provide a good or service to his fellow man.” In Viktor Suvorov’s The “Liberators” he describes how in the Soviet Union the most valuable persons were the artists and craftsmen. Those who could make things. A whole huge of the books underground economy. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:43 pm # So Lisa, do you favor putting the military along the borders? If so, I might get on board! Yes I do. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:45 pm # Slart, I have banged a cellist/pimp. Does that count? Comment by SarahW on 11/13 @ 2:48 pm # “but we can skip a few episodes of Rock of Love to do something for Uncle Sam.” Uncle Sam is not my master. Comment by BJTexs on 11/13 @ 2:49 pm # Stop talking so tough, Lisa! It … um … distracts me. meeeeeooooooow Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 2:53 pm # # Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 11/13 @ 1:20 pm # thor: Ã¢â‚¬Å“IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been to Russia so I know what IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m talking about. My girlfriend is Russian. They read poetry over there. That means our schools suck. And our schools suck because you rightwingers didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t vote for Obama.Ã¢â‚¬Â God, where to startÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ 1) You maybe know about the one city you were in, with the surrounding environs. You may have a clue to two about places you passed through. You do NOT know Russia. 2) Maybe they read poetry where you were. Your knowledge of the rest of the country is nil. 3) Your logic train for the rest of your post is so pretty much a post turtle Ã¢â‚¬â€ there is no sane way one goes from one point to another in your rant. Point of fact, thor, if liberalism and leftwing ideology were the keys to Utopia, Washington DC should be heaven on earth. You failed the failed r-winger IQ test. Those hysterics aren’t mine, poofer, they’re my deranged alter-shadow’s. You’ve replied to a metaphorical/satirical middle finger gesture from one of your comrades whose lost his wheels. I believe you’ve the observatory skills of a crustacean. Maybe you should slip on a sleeveless, stained, plaid woolen shirt and go pluck yourself a chicken from the barn, or sit in the lotus position in spandex leotards in your twinkling garden while I play eidetic games with your caricature. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:56 pm # Hee hee. I am practicing for my new job as Master Commandant at the Department of Compulsory Service. You better work , bitches. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 2:56 pm # observatory? I had no idea crustaceans were in the business of stargazing. Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/13 @ 2:57 pm # I can’t believe no one caught this from thor of all people: Consider doing something other than spend all your days brow-beating and impugning others. On this thread of all threads. Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 11/13 @ 2:58 pm # I believe youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve the observatory skills of a crustacean. Maybe you should slip on a sleeveless, stained, plaid woolen shirt and go pluck yourself a chicken from the barn, or sit in the lotus position in spandex leotards in your twinkling garden while I play eidetic games with your caricature. I find word salad really benefits from a light raspberry vinaigrette. Comment by TheUnrepentantGeek on 11/13 @ 2:59 pm # # Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 2:56 pm # Hee hee. I am practicing for my new job as Master Commandant at the Department of Compulsory Service. You better work , bitches. That image is terrifying. Comment by cranky-d on 11/13 @ 3:09 pm # RuPaul does not frighten me. Now, you in a black leather ensemble… that might do it. Comment by cranky-d on 11/13 @ 3:10 pm # I meant Lisa in the black leather. TheUnrepentantGeek in black leather might be a whole other level of fear. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 3:17 pm # In a thin, pink cotton tank-top that dramatically clashes with his day-glo orange spandex leggings, Dread Cthulu prances effortlessly like a weightless Newt Gingrinch on a rubberized floor. Only when he patty-pats the perspiration from his face with a small, white towelette is his effort revealed. Modern dance is not a faggy or homosexualized routine, he assures himself. Though he doesn’t date, per se, he’s always been popular with the ladies at the gym. At least there’s been a surge of Republicans, like him, getting involved in modern dance classes since Foley and Craig came clean. Comment by MAJ (P) John on 11/13 @ 4:04 pm # “Remember, he doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t feel we need to actually pay for wars or even sacrifice ourselves to fight them.” Yeah, she says this to soemone who has been in OEF and OIF… howzabout what you have sacrificed? I mean, to set the example for the rest of us, right? And I, too, take that crack about Americans being lazy none too well. Maybe you or yours are, me and mine work plenty hard. I’d swear you were delibertly being obtuse in this thread, or insulting. Comment by Cave Bear on 11/13 @ 4:43 pm # So sayeth Lisa: Ã¢â‚¬Å“I know we are deeply and profoundly lazy as a people,Ã¢â‚¬Â Speak for yourself, Sugartits. As for literacy in this country, as opposed to Russia or wherever, it’s really all about culture (the schools, public or otherwise, really don’t have that much to do with it). The culture you were raised in. That is, if you were inculcated with the concepts of hard work and learning, not only will you at the very least learn to read, you will succeed in life. On the other hand, if you were raised in a culture that does not hold forth these concepts as critical, then you most likely end up a loser in life, regardless of race, creed, color or hat size. It really is just that simple. However, we do have some people around here who hold themselves up as “literate”, but if they voted for Obambi, then the truth is they are in fact not very literate at all, and lousy critical thinkers as well. Which is another way of saying that precious “52%” is composed solely of invincibly ignorant morons, given what we know about the man (not to mention that large part we DON’T know about him). Comment by Tony LaVanway on 11/13 @ 5:20 pm # It always starts out as a feel-good volunteer.”Lets make the world a better place..We owe it to our children” kind of crap. Then someone gets his eye poked out. And it ends with you in a trench,cold, wet and hungry.Holding a rifle,that jams any time you look at it cross-eyed.And theres some stupid tw#t,pointing a pistol at your head yelling “OVER THE WALL..or i will BLOW YOUR FU%@ING BRAINS OUT” Happen’s every damn time.. tony south haven,mi Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 7:35 pm # Comment by Cave Bear on 11/13 @ 4:43 pm # On the other hand, if you were raised in a culture that does not hold forth these concepts as critical, then you most likely end up a loser in life, regardless of race, creed, color or hat size. It really is just that simple. However, we do have some people around here who hold themselves up as Ã¢â‚¬Å“literateÃ¢â‚¬Â, but if they voted for Obambi, then the truth is they are in fact not very literate at all, and lousy critical thinkers as well. Which is another way of saying that precious Ã¢â‚¬Å“52%Ã¢â‚¬Â is composed solely of invincibly ignorant morons, given what we know about the man (not to mention that large part we DONÃ¢â‚¬â„¢T know about him). Or, how about this, say you say things that people, literate or otherwise, don’t want to hear. Say you get time in prison, the Foucaultian structures of disciple and punishment knock on your door, and they strip you of everything, yeah, including your name. Who knows what hard work is, or what suffering is, those that filed the serpents fangs into harmless nubs, or, self-proclaiming claimers like you, who do as you’re told? Brodsky. Genet. Celine. Sakharov. Solzhenitsyn. Mandelstam. Voltaire. Baudelaire. Even modern, such as Fallaci and Rushdie. Who is harder working, tide runner, who is tougher? You sheeple-people, or those that stand naked, like an PW Outlaw, and squeeze off a 10-gauge shotgun round into your illiterate ugly, revolting face? Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 7:40 pm # I dunno. I work really pretty darn hard. Today I produced actionable insights about the American salsa consumer. That’s right. actionable. I kept my clothes on though. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 7:41 pm # Lisa you are basically talkin like thor on here and then acting surprised when I treat you as such. Whatever I am done continue ranting about how lazy Amerikkkans are and cite how since the EvilchimpyMcBushHitler didn’t ask you to do anything after 911 you sat on your lazy ass uninvolved. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 7:45 pm # Here is a comparison for you Lisa. The first is what you said about me and my countrymen, the second is what I have seen racist say about your people. Americans are unaccountably lazy and slothful. They should get off their fat asses and stop watching Rock of Love. Black people are lazy as shit and just need to get off their asses and get jobs and all their problems will melt away. They should get off their fat asses and stop watching I Love Money cause Hoopz already won. Do you see how freakin insulting that is now and how someone could take offense? I keep hoping you are smarter than this but you keep proving me wrong. Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/13 @ 7:49 pm # thor, do you have something to back your claim that Russians have a higher literacy rate, as percent of the country not just Moscow, than the US? Or is that claim just anecdotal? Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:01 pm # By the way I have to correct my own stupidity. When I said me and my countrymen I should have included you. My bad. Whatever point still stands. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:16 pm # Here is a comparison for you Lisa. The first is what you said about me and my countrymen, the second is what I have seen racist say about your people. Americans are unaccountably lazy and slothful. They should get off their fat asses and stop watching Rock of Love. Black people are lazy as shit and just need to get off their asses and get jobs and all their problems will melt away. They should get off their fat asses and stop watching I Love Money cause Hoopz already won. Do you see how freakin insulting that is now and how someone could take offense? I keep hoping you are smarter than this but you keep proving me wrong. I think you are full of shit, Pink. There, I have said it. Not nice, but it is what it is. You just want to be “insulted” because you don’t like my politics. I could say the sky is blue and you would shit your pants and caper like a monkey screaming that such a proclaimation injured your essential essence as an American. It is utterly contrived – and badly done at that. You are about as convincing as Al Sharpton on Tawana Brawley. Tighten your act up and then try again. You might even be able to take your one man Freakin’ Insulted Circus on the road. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:18 pm # BTW, if you were keeping it real, a simple “speak for yourself, you lazy commie” would have done the trick. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:19 pm # One last thing: I was not surprised at all. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:25 pm # Personally I think you’re all the illiterate evidence I need. I don’t think your cream puff American ass would last a day at an average state run Parisian institute, much less at Moscow State. C’mon pussy boy, let that American pride swell up and give me some teary-eyed links! They sort’a stress that reading and writing early there, cry as you might, but it won’t change reality. Most Russian village whores are far more educated in language than you, Lee. They might not be able to afford two-dollars worth of underwear, but suck hard and long on the reality that those little Anna Akhmatovas are your Lord and master when it comes to the word. They can even draw sketches of your penis with charcoal and colored pencils. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:30 pm # #382: LMAO!! Comment by B Moe on 11/13 @ 8:30 pm # Face it dude, thor is rubber and you are glue. He learned that in Russia. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:31 pm # “It is utterly contrived” You are wrong. I honestly thought what you said was more insulting than anything I have seen thor type. “BTW, if you were keeping it real, a simple Ã¢â‚¬Å“speak for yourself, you lazy commieÃ¢â‚¬Â would have done the trick.” That comment about the commies is a complete strawman why did you waste your time? You could be a fuckin commie, hell I know some that say they are. It is a FREE country. “I could say the sky is blue and you would shit your pants and caper like a monkey screaming that such a proclaimation injured your essential essence as an American.” You are totally wrong. By the way you didn’t say the sky is blue, you said that Americans(which would include yourself) are lazy. Uh how else would you insult the my countries essential essence? You got something I haven’t heard please let me know. Trust me this is not a “meltdown” or a temper tantrum, I just honestly find your comments insulting. I am letting you know. Seriously even if you pull a thor and tell me I should crawl up Palin’s cunt WTF could I do? Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:32 pm # What’s funny is that the American education system has failed in the worst way. Dumbassed sloganeering is all they teach. Did you hear Bush’s speech today. What was that? It was the twice-baked vomit of the coward American intellect. Fuckin’ retards who can’t balance a checkbook lecturing on free markets. What a worthless man he is. Typical.Republican.Assclown. Comment by B Moe on 11/13 @ 8:35 pm # WhatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s funny is that the American education system has failed in the worst way. Dumbassed sloganeering is all they teach. Yet you rabidly support Obama and Ayers. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:35 pm # Hey, Mr. Pink, a black person called you lazy. And she’s more literate than you, too, in the King’s tongue, your ancestral tongue, you lazy fuck. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:36 pm # Obama out sloganeered the sloganeers, ain’t it great. Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/13 @ 8:38 pm # So…that would be “no” then? Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:41 pm # She called us all lazy, including herself, you dumbass. You were insulted too douchebag. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:45 pm # Yes, no, to you… [...] ya weeping illiterate Amerikanksy! Comment by B Moe on 11/13 @ 8:47 pm # Obama out sloganeered the sloganeers, ainÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t it great. As he should have, his mentors Wright and Ayers are two of the best, and Ayers is one of the ringleaders of the movement that created the education system you were just bemoaning. I would question your intellectual consistency if you had ever shown signs of either. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 8:47 pm # You are an American now too thor. You are lazy as well. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:48 pm # I don’t want you to go crazy with your asthamtic inhaler, your nebulizer! Calm down. Some Russians aren’t all that, to be honest. They’re just like you. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:49 pm # Okay I am going to take you at your word that you are really insulted. I don’t mean to wound, just needle. When I apologize, I like to think that the most important part of said apology is not doing the same thing again. However, since I still think my statement was somewhat innocuous (though stupid) I can’t say that I wouldn’t say something similar at another time. I am pretty certain that I will talk trash, be trollish, snarky, and tiresomely immmature in the future. So a full-blown apology would be pretty hollow. Would you accept my expression of regret? That was not the lazy American that I knew for 20 years. I am severing ties… Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:52 pm # Compared to a Russian poet? Fuck yeah I’m lazy. I ain’t even worthy of a Irish poet. pdbuttons, on the other hand, she’s a bonafide neorealist artist! Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 8:53 pm # And thor is my Senior Officer in the new Socialist Republic of O. So calling me thor-lite is redundant. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:54 pm # buttons is a guy, but I agree. ok I don’t know what that means. are you being sarcastic? That would be wrong of you. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:54 pm # I regret that I thought New Wave music was cool twenty years ago. Please accept my apology. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:55 pm # I thought pdbuttons was nishi. Comment by Tony LaVanway on 11/13 @ 8:55 pm # - do not feed the troll - “They can even draw sketches of your penis with charcoal and colored pencils.” That will not get you a job a McDee’s. Lots of starving artists in the world. Get a grant from the NEA.They support all sorts of stupid things. have a nice day, troll tony south haven,mi – don’t feed the troll - Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:56 pm # New Wave is still cool I think cause when you’re knocked on your back and your life’s a flop and when you’re down on the bottom there’s nothing else but to shout to the top I think. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 8:58 pm # nonono. buttons is buttons. You have not been reading him with appropriate attention then. He’s too cool for school I think. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 8:59 pm # Comment by Tony LaVanway on 11/13 @ 8:55 pm # Lots of starving artists in the world. Well, there are artist’s guilds and unions in other parts of the world. Their governments help support artists so that they don’t starve. Hey, but it’s a big world. Lots of time still left for you to get out and see it, someday. Comment by guinsPen on 11/13 @ 8:59 pm # buttons is a guy Link, please. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 9:00 pm # No way, buttons is nishi in male drag. Buttons is really good. Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 9:01 pm # you’re thinking of pj harvey Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 9:02 pm # I regret that I thought New Wave music was cool twenty years ago. Please accept my apology. I am skeptical when someone is that insulted by something that innocuous, but I don’t want to be a total cunt. At some point one has to take a person at their word and meet them where they are, you know? I just downloaded ABC’s The Lexicon of Love and Alphaville’s “best of” album. Good stuff. Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/13 @ 9:03 pm # Well, buttons talks about his wife sometimes. I guess that isn’t conclusive proof these days… Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 9:03 pm # Are you quoting Style Council, Happy? Rad. Comment by Tony LaVanway on 11/13 @ 9:04 pm # Jeff, Is it ok if I use this whole OUTLAW!! thing,when i post on other blogs.Or is it a PW exclusive, like cheating on your girlfriend? Im starting to dig this meme tony south haven,mi ps. OUTLAW!!! Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 9:04 pm # good call, Lisa. Things are easy when you’re big in Japan I think. Comment by thor on 11/13 @ 9:06 pm # That’s it. I’m going to my local art bar. I’m already half-drunk. And that’s what’s necessary for me to hang out with the ABC Lexicon of Love crowd. $1 lemon drops and kamikazees at the art bar tonight, but the male bartender’s hip swivels are free. Peace. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:09 pm # Lisa I think I am under a false impression that we can both agree to be civil and agree on some basic facts that do not change regardless of the situation or party. I really think that is where this impass is coming from. Totally on my end, carry on. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 9:12 pm # Definitely Happy, lol. That song is so great. I am trying to find a new wave song, I don’t know who sings it, but it is super-synthed and the lyrics are something like “one man on a lonely platform, one case sitting by his side. Two eyes staring cold and silent…(cant remember the rest)” it is super cheesy but I LOVED that song. Guess I could Google the lyrics. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 9:17 pm # I can agree to be civil. Civility is good. I can’t say that we won’t annoy each other or ever agree on a single thing. But that is what makes this country great. We don’t have to behead each other or anything weird. I give you the terrorist fist-bump of peace. Comment by Lisa on 11/13 @ 9:18 pm # Found it: Fade to Grey, by Visage. Good song. Comment by Tony LaVanway on 11/13 @ 9:19 pm # “there are artistÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s guilds and unions in other parts of the world” Ohh..ok i get it,so there are no starving Ho’s in russia.i see, than that the whole socialist-thing worked out for them. Because i was getting worried about them, have you read they’re poetry?its kind of depressing,worse than Klingon Sometimes i can be a silly thupid murican. Missed my meds,sry “Lots of time still left for you to get out and see it, someday” Been there,done it.got the squirts. do not feed the troll have a nice day troll tony south haven,mi Comment by happyfeet on 11/13 @ 9:20 pm # I put that on my list. I might have it. So many cds to rip. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:21 pm # Nah I refuse your fist bumps of peace since you refuse to be intellectually honest enought to admit if Bush proposed making you spend 50 hours a year to “volunteer” to some stupid ass social program you would laugh. Carry on your thor impression without me please. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:29 pm # IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m already half-drunk. You come off as completely wasted nearly all the time. You mean you mostly post nearly sober? I mean, WTF? Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:30 pm # By the way terrorist don’t fistbump, that is totally ours. If you fist bump you might set off your suicide belt. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:31 pm # By the way here is a funny link. http://sweetness-light.com/archive/more-tolerance-from-liberals-oak-park Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:32 pm # See, I make fun of thor all the time because I think he’s totally shitfaced. If he’s like that dead sober…I mean, sorry. Don’t mean to make fun of the differently abled. Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/13 @ 9:35 pm # I feel bad. Sorry, thor. Comment by Mr. Pink on 11/13 @ 9:39 pm # Cool. Feel bad for me too since I start alot of sentences off with “by the way”. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/13 @ 11:30 pm # buttons is bad! you talking to me? are you talking to me? ain’t no one else here choke on my russian poetry tsvetaeva marina ya esm’ ty budesh’ mezhdu nami bezdna Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 12:40 am # are the eighties over? cuz i kinda like my spandex pants[ makes my..dick/camel toe?] look bigger! my co-workers are kinda upset that i dress like loverboy but i tell them i’m canadian-and that seems to calm them down but i could seriously lose the headband cuz it’s giving me a headache! i love this site! thanks goldstein! Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 12:44 am # i’m thinking of the best hockey player who ever lived he was from a small town and kinda shy… was thrust into a major media market but was polite after he came here there was a new industry for hockey like rush did for radio a classy guy who never complained i’m thinking… Comment by thor on 11/14 @ 12:48 am # Bobby Orr! Or Marty McSorley. Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/14 @ 12:52 am # Bobby Hull? Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 12:58 am # thor tsvetaeva boat marina ya esm’ ty budesh’mezhdhu nami beezdna Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 12:59 am # u make 8 posts in a row-then u can say bobby hull [gordie howe?] Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 1:02 am # kharlmatov larianov and that other guy! Comment by pretty boy lee on 11/14 @ 1:04 am # I make 8 posts in a row and I say goodnight! Phil Esposito? Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 1:22 am # true story time the trainer for the boston bruins was named “frosty forristal” and he lived over my buddies house in a studio apartment full blown alchoholic-but he was the trainer on the 72 canuck rusian hockey series anyway- he came back with an auoutgraphed picture of the whole team and he gave it to the local bar[my local bar too] and it hung by the back doorway-and every time i was in my cups i’d drunkenly think why doesn’t someone rip [steal] that ?[mind u/ framed/in a glass case etc i mean-it was sweet] so i hear the bar got sold i went down one day-[we don't drink like we used to] and i had a drink i say- i hear[oh shit -i'm thinkin john lee hooker-hey man-i ain't got the rent!] so i notice that the enclosed glass 1972 autougraph thing is gone and i thinks to myself if i had ripped that off 10 years ago! my cat would be swimming in milk! thanks 4 reading this but i don’t steal nothing but ur time! Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 1:24 am # espo wore #7 so u only got to make 6 post in a row then #7 u go espo! 1 Comment by thor on 11/14 @ 1:54 am # You will say Krutov, Larionov and Marakov! And I will say: once was Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 2:00 am # who was their awesome goalie? Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 2:10 am # the 72 series was good but the most recent[i don't know Most recent] when we had that line of gretsky[how's that 4 a russian name!] the dude who bought the pittsburgh guinspen[shout out!] ray bourque/paul coffey and [help? ]can’t remember the other guy anyway- series went 7 games/our side won in the last few minutes i still get hard/wet over that Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 2:11 am # 444 555 fife and drum dum dum Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 2:13 am # i’m cocky thor interupttus my bad 555 is hard Comment by thor on 11/14 @ 2:20 am # Tretiak he’s a maniac and he’s dancing like he’s never danced before Comment by guinsPen on 11/14 @ 4:50 am # Turtle spoo. Ick. Comment by B Moe on 11/14 @ 5:45 am # Wouldn’t rate him the best ever, but Vladimir Konstantinov was my favorite. Best open ice hitter I ever saw. Comment by pdbuttons on 11/14 @ 7:03 am # tretiak! thank you kind stalin! Comment by Slartibartfast on 11/14 @ 7:48 am # you son of a bitch I palindrome I (Egad, a base tone denotes bad age) Comment by Drugstore Pharmacy on 4/1 @ 4:51 pm # Everything is sold over the internet today, and we the people need to take advantage of this very effective and simple service. Buying medication through an online drugstore pharmacy is so great because it allows me to save time. Trackback by Pet Waste Removal and Pooper Scooper Service for Central Connecticut, Farmington Valley, Connecticut and Hartford, Connecticut Provided by DoodyCalls Pooper Scoopers on 4/12 @ 8:10 am # Pet Waste Removal and Pooper Scooper Service for Central Connecticut, Farmington Valley, Connecticut and Hartford, Connecticut Provided by DoodyCalls Pooper Scoopers… RSS feed for comments on this post…. RSS feed for comments on this post. 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