President-elect Obama’s advisers are quietly crafting a proposal to ship dozens, if not hundreds, of imprisoned terrorism suspects to the United States to face criminal trials, a plan that would make good on his promise to close the Guantanamo Bay prison but could require creation of a controversial new system of justice.During his campaign, Obama described Guantanamo as a “sad chapter in American history” and has said generally that the U.S. legal system is equipped to handle the detainees. But he has offered few details on what he planned to do once the facility is closed.
Under plans being put together in Obama’s camp, some detainees would be released and many others would be prosecuted in U.S. criminal courts.
A third group of detainees  the ones whose cases are most entangled in highly classified information  might have to go before a new court designed especially to handle sensitive national security cases, according to advisers and Democrats involved in the talks. Advisers participating directly in the planning spoke on condition of anonymity because the plans aren’t final.
The move would be a sharp deviation from the Bush administration, which established military tribunals to prosecute detainees at the Navy base in Cuba and strongly opposes bringing prisoners to the United States. Obama’s Republican challenger, John McCain, had also pledged to close Guantanamo. But McCain opposed criminal trials, saying the Bush administration’s tribunals should continue on U.S. soil.
The plan being developed by Obama’s team has been championed by legal scholars from both political parties. But it is almost certain to face opposition from Republicans who oppose bringing terrorism suspects to the U.S. and from Democrats who oppose creating a new court system with fewer rights for detainees.
Well, I’m a fairminded guy. Who are the legal conservatives championing the idea of a “new system of justice”? I’d like to read what they have to say.
Anybody know? The AP is being a bit coy again, it seems.
Laurence Tribe, a Harvard law professor and Obama legal adviser, said discussions about plans for Guantanamo had been “theoretical” before the election but would quickly become very focused because closing the prison is a top priority. Bringing the detainees to the United States will be controversial, he said, but could be accomplished.
Sure. I especially like the part about bringing them here, setting them free, then ignoring immigration laws.
After all, what’s an American quilt without a square dedicated to former enemy combatants…?
[...]
The tougher challenge will be allaying fears by Democrats who believe the Bush administration’s military commissions were a farce and dislike the idea of giving detainees anything less than the full constitutional rights normally enjoyed by everyone on U.S. soil.
“There would be concern about establishing a completely new system,” said Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., a member of the House Judiciary Committee and former federal prosecutor who is aware of the discussions in the Obama camp. “And in the sense that establishing a regimen of detention that includes American citizens and foreign nationals that takes place on U.S. soil and departs from the criminal justice system  trying to establish that would be very difficult.”
Translation: Obama’s plan just isn’t soft enough. If those caught on the battlefield aren’t Mirandized and given access to trial attorneys, those caught on the battlefield will have already won.
Obama has said the civilian and military court-martial systems provide “a framework for dealing with the terrorists,” and Tribe said the administration would look to those venues before creating a new legal system. But discussions of what a new system would look like have already started.
“It would have to be some sort of hybrid that involves military commissions that actually administer justice rather than just serve as kangaroo courts,” Tribe said. “It will have to both be and appear to be fundamentally fair in light of the circumstances. I think people are going to give an Obama administration the benefit of the doubt in that regard.”
Though a hybrid court may be unpopular, other advisers and Democrats involved in the Guantanamo Bay discussions say Obama has few other options.
Prosecuting all detainees in federal courts raises a host of problems. Evidence gathered through military interrogation or from intelligence sources might be thrown out. Defendants would have the right to confront witnesses, meaning undercover CIA officers or terrorist turncoats might have to take the stand, jeopardizing their cover and revealing classified intelligence tactics.
In theory, Obama could try to transplant the Bush administration’s military commission system from Guantanamo Bay to a U.S. prison. But Tribe said, and other advisers agreed, that was “a nonstarter.” With lax evidence rules and intense secrecy, the military commissions have been criticized by human rights groups, defense attorneys and even some military prosecutors who quit the process in protest.“I don’t think we need to completely reinvent the wheel, but we need a better tribunal process that is more transparent,” Schiff said.
That means something different would need to be done if detainees couldn’t be released or prosecuted in traditional courts. Exactly what that something would look like remains unclear.
According to three advisers participating in the process, Obama is expected to propose a new court system, appointing a committee to decide how such a court would operate. Some detainees likely would be returned to the countries where they were first captured for further detention or rehabilitation.
— Rendition! Gasp —
! The rest could probably be prosecuted in U.S. criminal courts, one adviser said. All spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing talks, which have been private.Whatever form it takes, Tribe said he expects Obama to move quickly.
As all good moderates do. Centrists being well-known for their rapidity in decision making.
“In reality and symbolically, the idea that we have people in legal black holes is an extremely serious black mark,” Tribe said. “It has to be dealt with.”
And there it is: symbolism takes center stage, preening like a diva.
But the thing about the new pragmatism is, it doesn’t seem to recognize its own paradigm — namely, that one man’s symbolism is another man’s show of weakness.
And I’ve no doubt that there are those who are watching what we’re doing — even applauding publicly our showy gestures of goodwill and “fairness” — and licking their chops.
Of course, that’s all just right-wing fear mongering. After all, who would dare attack the US…?
****
update, from the comments:
Ya know, the folks who bitched about military tribunals are now going to set up a “special†system of domestic/civilian courts that are empowered to use secret evidence.Personally, I think the latter is much more ripe for abuse than the former, but WTF do I know?
Well, if you know what’s good for you, you’ll quickly learn to mind your betters.
– Which reminds me: how long before Greenwald’s book on this SHREDDING OF THE CONSTITUTION hits the NYT best-seller’s list, do you think…?
Comment by Pablo & Clyde on 11/10 @ 10:05 am #
Legal black holes. War has no meaning. America is officially fucked.
Happy Birthday, Marine Corps. Why don’t you guys just take the rest of your lives off?
Comment by cranky-d on 11/10 @ 10:07 am #
Comment by cranky-d on 11/10 @ 10:07 am #
So much for my formatting.
Comment by HeatherRadish on 11/10 @ 10:08 am #
the idea that we have people in legal black holes is an extremely serious black mark
I didn’t know people were still allowed to talk like that in the Age of Obama.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/10 @ 10:08 am #
Ya know, the folks who bitched about military tribunals are now going to set up a “special” system of domestic/civilian courts that are empowered to use secret evidence.
Personally, I think the latter is much more ripe for abuse than the former, but WTF do I know?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/10 @ 10:13 am #
Anyone interested in a “Don’t Blame Me, I Didn’t Vote For Him” bumper sticker?
Comment by Jeff G. on 11/10 @ 10:15 am #
Exactly, Rob. I eagerly await Greenwald(s)’s(’s) books on the subject.
Comment by Techie on 11/10 @ 10:16 am #
I vote for immediate release into a “sanctuary city”.
Comment by Wow! on 11/10 @ 10:17 am #
“How would you know?” Remember this phrase. We’re gonna need it over the next 4 years. Today, you’ll probably hear lefty friends go on about ‘how aren’t the Gitmo rules so change-y, don’t they give you hope, isn’t it so different and fresh.’ And you say: “How would you know?”
The point is that libs have no idea how the govt. works. But it’s all about feelings…..
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/10 @ 10:18 am #
Gleen will be all for it, because the whip will be in the hands of people he agrees with.
Like Gorelick.
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 10:20 am #
Hey Larry -
If ya shoot the bastards on the spot instead of sticking them in iffy prisons, you get a lot fewer problems with recidivism.
Just sayin’…
Comment by Christoph on 11/10 @ 10:20 am #
Don’t worry, dude, Attorney-General Goerlick will do a fab job with these trials.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 10:22 am #
“It will have to both be and appear to be fundamentally fair in light of the circumstances. I think people are going to give an Obama administration the benefit of the doubt in that regard.”
He’s talking about Baracky’s media… The ACLU guy (”The last eight years are a testament to the problems of trying to create new systems.”) isn’t on board. Me I have no doubt that everything Baracky does will appear to be fundamentally fair to his cadre of journalists. This is National. Public. Radio.
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 10:23 am #
I been lookin’ around for tees - anybody know where I can get a REAL “Fuck Obama” shirt? I don’t like the coy “Buck Ofama” crap.
I need something with offensive potential.
Comment by SarahW on 11/10 @ 10:24 am #
They will certainly give it a nice perfume. Flowerbomb, I think.
Comment by SarahW on 11/10 @ 10:25 am #
Message tees are so out. Tricorns, are in.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/10 @ 10:25 am #
I’ve got one that is quite racially insensitive: “2012: The Buck Stops Here”.
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 10:28 am #
Maybe something with a big Jugears grin: “South Side, Suckas!”
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 10:28 am #
I pick San Francisco. Right next to the George Bush Sewage Treatment Plant. Let the Cindies Sheehan and McKinney administrate from within the sanctuary fences.
Win, win!
Comment by Gas Station Attendant Thor on 11/10 @ 10:29 am #
2012: Ofay’s Back in Town
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/10 @ 10:31 am #
Sounds like the basis of the third Snake Plissken movie: “Escape from San Francisco”.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 11/10 @ 10:33 am #
To second mojo’s comment. If they just shot these mother fuckers on the spot, there wouldn’t be this big of a problem, no?
And yes military tribunals under Bush Mcchimperorhalliburtonhatesallnegroes were bad, but domestic courts empowered to use “secret” evidence under The One True Light of O! is ok?
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 10:35 am #
Well I did nominate a couple of snakes!
BTW: when will the Cindy Squares be calling for Obama to hold war crimes trials for the prosecution of the the Bushitler Fascist Genocide Regime? Maybe at that whole new system of courts?
Comment by Techie on 11/10 @ 10:35 am #
2012: I don’t think Dinkins is working out…….
Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/10 @ 10:36 am #
Plunck’em in DC, right on the White House lawn.
Comment by christian on 11/10 @ 10:42 am #
President-Elect Barack Obama and a moderate voter were standing by a large river.
“Will you take me across this river, moderate voter?” asked Obama.
“Well, I don’t know,” replied the moderate voter. “I voted for you, but I heard you’re a lot more liberal than the mainstream media portrayed you to be. How can I know that you won’t sting me?”
“I give you my word, as God is my witness, that I will not sting you. It’s just that there’s a Whole Foods store on the other side of this river and there’s a sale on arugula, and I really don’t want to get my new Berluti shoes wet.”
“I’m still not sure,” replied the moderate voter.
“It will be OK,” said Obama. “All you have to do is hope hard enough, and the water will change into a river of shiny quarters!”
“Wow!” replied the voter. “Alright, let’s do it.”
So President-Elect Barack Obama climbed onto the voter’s shoulders and they started to cross the river. However, when they were half-way through, President-Elect Obama issued an executive order to close down Guantanamo Bay and release the terrorists into the US, and a band of roving terrorists came by and shot the moderate voter and burned his house down.
As they began to sink into the water, the moderate voter said “But you promised!” to which President-Elect Obama replied “You knew what I was when you first saw me.” The moderate voter replied “No…I believe everything the mainstream media tells me-I really didn’t.”
The end.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/10 @ 10:42 am #
They’d just send them to San Bernardino.
Comment by McGehee on 11/10 @ 10:44 am #
I’m wondering what compromise we’ll end up with. Remember that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was originally a compromise.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 10:45 am #
Yo I ain’t no prisoner I’s a de-tayn-ee. Show a little respect dog.
Comment by Carin on 11/10 @ 10:46 am #
We could release the detainees into Detroit. Plop ‘em right down in Dearborn.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 11/10 @ 10:51 am #
“San Francisco? I ain’t going to no San Francisco! Those bastards scare the crap outta me!”
-Snake Plissken
Comment by Jeffersonian on 11/10 @ 11:00 am #
Sure, give them all the full gamut of constitutional rights. They’ll all claim a Fourth Amendment violation and be set free immediately. I feel safer already.
Comment by SGT Ted on 11/10 @ 11:04 am #
Jesus Christ I didn’t think Larry Tribe was so stupid. Kangaroo courts? These are the same type of tribunals used in WW2 to try Nazi and Japanese spies. The war criminals that Tribe wants to protect would put his head on a stick in an instant and kill his family for being infidels. What an ignorant asshole.
This just means we’ll shoot more of them, so, like, glass half full.
Comment by Cannon on 11/10 @ 11:06 am #
Can’t we just refer to them as ‘radicals’ and give them tenured university positions?
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 11:21 am #
I say we send them all to Chicago…
And get them tenured positions at UIC…
I mean, they’re all into radical chic there…
There they champion diversity!, multi-culturalism!, tolerance!…
And have no problem accepting unrepentant terrorists into their community; especially if they have stuck it to the Man! by beating the rap on a technicality!…
Comment by ThomasD on 11/10 @ 11:23 am #
Not so loud Cannon, we’re not supposed to see that coming until it’s too late.
Comment by ThomasD on 11/10 @ 11:27 am #
“It would have to be some sort of hybrid that involves military commissions that actually administer justice rather than just serve as kangaroo courts,†Tribe said.
Wow. The mask drops. I’m sure there are some JAG or even General Officer types who might be a tad miffed at such a characterization, but what do I know.
Comment by Mossberg500 on 11/10 @ 11:31 am #
The detainee’s defense attorneys are going to have a field day no matter what!
Comment by ThomasD on 11/10 @ 11:36 am #
It will be interesting to see how the Obama administration deals with plaintiff’s attorneys who attempt to prevent rendition of their clients through all the myriad legal challenges.
Comment by Der Hahn on 11/10 @ 12:17 pm #
“Is that you, Snake?, I thought you were dead”
Comment by William Teach on 11/10 @ 12:24 pm #
A book by Sock Puppet decrying Barry? Thanks for the laugh, Jeff! :)
Comment by charles austin on 11/10 @ 12:33 pm #
“I know what happens, I read the book. I believe I just got the goodbye look. Won’t you pour me a Cuban Breeze, Gretchen?”
Comment by steveaz on 11/10 @ 1:06 pm #
There’s another reason for Obama to create a third-tier judiciary, he has direct ties to some unsavory foreign players, like Odinga and Khalidi, that may be known to our captured Jihadis.
After all, hundreds of Kenyans have died in Islamists’ bomb-attacks in the past decade, and Obama’s family clan, the Luo, may have contributed materially to these atrocities against Africans.
By creating a special system of courts with special privacy provisions, Obama’s AG (Jamie Gorelick?) can keep a tight cap on any damaging revelations. Makes sense, really.
Comment by Brett on 11/10 @ 1:31 pm #
Inmates. Asylum. Keys.
Comment by Ed Flinn on 11/10 @ 1:45 pm #
printed as a back-to-back twofer with TO SERVE MAN
Comment by OCBill on 11/10 @ 1:50 pm #
The “controversial new system of justice” will devote itself to a new class of crrimes falling roughly defined under the “Enemies of the State” executive order recently handed down from the Office of the President-Elect. This includes “terrorists” who sought to fight against U.S. interests abroad and other still undefined crimes involving those seeking to undermine the policies being passed for the good of the People.
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 2:03 pm #
“Ripley? I thought you were dead.”
“Yeah, I get that a lot.”
Comment by ginsocal on 11/10 @ 2:47 pm #
I’m thinking that O!’s “honeymoon” will be measured in minutes.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/10 @ 3:02 pm #
Really? What makes you think that?
The press will praise his plans to the ends of the earth. If any of them are ever criticized, it’ll be after a Republican gets elected and tries to use them.
Comment by charles austin on 11/10 @ 3:19 pm #
How dare you question his stamina.
Comment by The Way Lost Dog on 11/10 @ 3:20 pm #
“SHREDDING THE CONSTITUTION”?
Pray tell, good sir.
What in the name of God is a Constitution? Is it like bumwad? Is it a written document? If so, is it written in English? Does it tell us exactly how much YOU owe ME?
I certainly hope so, because I need MORE MONEY! The cable company wants a deposit for my HD - DVR box, but after buying my $4500.00 HD - TV, I don’t have enough money for the deposit.
Damn. Life really sucks when it unfolds according to your own decisions!
Comment by Jim in KC on 11/10 @ 3:44 pm #
Even disarming them and leaving them on the battlefield of whatever shit-hole they’re in is preferable to giving them trials in American courts, with the possibility of turning them loose in America.
Shooting them out-of-hand is probably better, though, as long as the people on the front lines aren’t made to pay for it.
Comment by Matt, Esq. on 11/10 @ 4:35 pm #
for all those folks who “wondered” whether we’d see a more “centrist” obama…
Not that we’d have ANY clue what a centrist Obama looks like. Hell, he may think this IS centrist.
Comment by Frank on 11/10 @ 4:44 pm #
In his book<..he wrote he would first side with the muslims. This is right on target for him! Shame on him! They are terrorists,..they would cut off our heads,..turn them loose???? He is already heading down hill.
Comment by irongrampa on 11/10 @ 5:15 pm #
I still can’t comprehend HOW the hell these battlefield detainees were morphed into POW”S. That, I conclude, was the defining moment when Gitmo became a travesty. Someone really screwed the pooch on that one.
Comment by Frank on 11/10 @ 5:25 pm #
These are the 1’s we went after,.that took down the towers,..right? He should have to adopt them all,..make them his personal staff and bodyguards!! dumbocrats sure picked a smart 1!
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 5:30 pm #
I pick San Francisco. Right next to the George Bush Sewage Treatment Plant.
Alcatraz is empty.
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 7:41 pm #
The quasi-annual “Swim For Freedom” - Alcatraz to Pier 57
Comment by mojo on 11/10 @ 7:45 pm #
BTW: “Tiburon” is Spanish for “shark”.
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 7:50 pm #
Trial by Ordeal only applies to women in Islam, mojo. I can’t believe how culturally insensitive you are.
Comment by Rob Crawford on 11/11 @ 7:56 am #
There are probably some places on Castro Street they’d be welcome.
Of course, they’d probably just pass along some information on bomb-making, and the Anti-Prop 8 “protesters” would ramp up their campaign.
Comment by eaglewingz08 on 11/11 @ 10:23 am #
I suggest releasing these people with ankle bracelets either to the SCOTUS building where they can share their love with the Gods of Olympus, or to Hyde Park where they will have friends in Rev Wright/Pflegar and innocent neighbors like Rev Farakkkhan, Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn and Mike Klonsky. Old friends, new neighbors, what a country.
Comment by mindlesley on 11/14 @ 6:16 pm #
I suggest y’all should also be given your freedom and sent to Guantanamo b4 he shuts it down to appreciate its more savoury practices and witness the condition of prisoners, close up. I’m sure the big O would give you permission.. How can all you libertarians be against fair judicial practice.If the process was so fair, why the reluctance to bring people b4 the tribunal? Cept for that poor, mug Aussie, David Hicks and a few others, I don’t know of any.I’m not against the more serious cats getting well removed from the “battlefield” - but as the Bush doctrine implies most of the world is the battlefield, it concerns me that it will erode freedom, worldwide.Surely a better way of dealing with your (and our) enemies would be to develop a new strategy altogether. All the torturing and rendition in the world does nothing but reduce US credibility with its friends and induce more recruitment into fascist Islam. For every small-time Islamist you injure, torture etc. in the name of justice, you multiply hatred thru’out the world, while Totalitarian regimes in countries throughout the Middle east prop up a crew of thieving, incompetent dictators that impell many of their citizens towards the only “pure” alternative they know, Islam. Just a suggestion, don’t kill me, Mindlesley
Comment by george searing on 1/5 @ 8:52 am #
the answer is simple go into all wars with take no prisioners, help Islam fanatics out by sending them to their god without delay! praise ALLAH what a f–king joke