September 29, 2008

Breaking: Bail out / fail out [UPDATED and UPDATED AGAIN]

From Hot Air:

The final tally was 207-226, with Democrats supporting it 141-94, while Republicans opposed it 66-132.

How did the markets react? Initially, with panic. Dow dropped from around a -290 to more like a -660, but then recovered within minutes to a -400. Within a few minutes after that, it rose a little further to about -360, a 300-point gain, but it continued to go up and down, and probably will all day long.

What does this mean? The Senate can always initiate their own version of the plan and re-send it to the House, but that will take some doing. Can Republicans change their votes after taking this kind of stand?

If it stands, it will be a repudiation of the leadership in both House caucuses and the Bush administration. Pelosi couldn’t hold her caucus together, and Boehner, Cantor, Blunt, and Putnam will find themselves in the minority of theirs.

Maybe now panic will really set in, and a fiscally-responsible attempt to clean up the mess can be put together.

Or not. In which case, I might need a refrigerator box or two.

****
update: Did Pelosi intentionally sabotage the vote so that the media, already in the bag for Obama, would have cover to blame the Republicans for the bill’s failure?

And if so, is there any more transparent ploy to put power over the welfare of the country — if in fact the Democrats truly believe that we need this bail out?

Congress has a 10% approval rate. Time for the McCain camp and the rest of the GOP to put out ads that lambaste the Dems for their craven ploys. Otherwise, we may as well kiss classical liberalism goodbye.

Here she is. Enjoy! And don’t be too hard on the old bint: it ain’t like she’s gonna suffer, so why not help the media in their partisan push to decide the election? And remember: one minute can be sixteen minutes when the greater good is involved…

Part 1:

Part 2:

(thanks to sdferr)

****
update 2: Did Pelosi actually help the country, however unintentionally?

John Berlau, American Spectator:

“The government has to do something to keep markets from falling and the economy from getting worse.” How many times have you heard that mantra this past week from President Bush, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, Democrat leaders, the news media, and even some ostensibly conservative periodicals?

But what if the bailout, as originally proposed and in its latest incarnation [.pdf available at link], would spend $700 billion of taxpayers’ money and actually make the economy worse? Believe it or not, there is good evidence this may happen. The inflationary prospects of the bailout price tag may lead to spikes in oil and crop prices that could hit ordinary Americans in their cars and on their kitchen tables. And government purchases of financial assets could ironically further constrain credit through causing write-downs on even the balance sheets of financial firms not participating in the bailout by worsening the effects of mark-to-market accounting rules.

All last week, the stock market’s plunging downward was pointed to as a sign that Washington must step up to the plate — as quickly as possible. Yet ironically last Friday — the day after the bailout talks broke down at the wild White House meeting with the presidential candidates — the Dow Jones industrial average actually went up by 120 points! This doesn’t mean that the market is opposed to the bailout, but it does show that the market volatility is probably as much due to the potential effects of a bailout as it is to a lack of one.

One of the things the market seems to fear about a bailout is inflation due to the staggering price tag. Even if the government recoups some of its purchases when the market stabilizes, as bailout proponents argue, the spending outlays will be done immediately, requiring a huge increase in the debt limit that’s in the current plan. The market expects (probably rightly) that the government will monetize much of the new debt through a looser monetary policy.

So a substantial indirect effect of the bailout will be higher prices for food and gasoline, and this will probably hit ordinary households sooner than many politicians expect. When speculators expect the dollar to fall or be volatile, they immediately try to hedge an unstable currency through buying commodity futures. Thus, last week saw a big spike in oil prices, which had been steadily declining over the last few months. Other commodities, notably gold, also shot up. Corn and wheat prices, already boosted because of ethanol mandates, will also likely shoot up in response to a falling dollar. […]

On top of this inflation, the bill might even worsen the very credit contraction it is trying to stop. This is because of its effects on financial firms that have to follow mark-to-market accounting rules. As I wrote earlier this month in the Wall Street Journal, the credit “contagion” has been spread in large part by these rules, adopted by the Securities and Exchange Commission and bank regulators in the last few years, and subject to a big expansion last November with Financial Accounting Standard 157.

Because the mark-to-market rules require writedowns of even performing loans based on the last sale of similar assets, good banks holding mortgages that haven’t been impaired often have to adjust their books based on another bank’s sale — even if they plan to hold their loans to maturity. And because the rules are tied to solvency requirements from the government’s bank regulators, banks lose “regulatory capital,” even if the loss is only on paper. Thus, in the scramble to conserve capital, financial firms have less money to lend.

But the bailout — in addition to putting taxpayers on the hook and massively increasing government’s role in the economy — would likely make mark-to-market and hence the credit crisis worse, according to experts who have reviewed Paulson’s plan. Paulson proposes a “reverse auction” approach by which government would choose a selling price to buy a financial firm’s mortgage-backed securities. But unless mark-to-market rules were changed, this sale would force other firms to write down their assets to this price, which could further constrain the amount of money they can lend.

An Associated Press story paraphrases American Enterprise Institute scholar Vincent Reinhart, a former Federal Reserve monetary affairs director, as saying that “if the auctions set too low a price for mortgage-related assets, other institutions with bad debt may be forced to take the distressed valuation onto their books under mark-to-market accounting rules.” Similarly a Washington Post story by financial reporter Neil Irwin says that the purchase could force more regional banks to write their assets down. Thus, regional banks as well as big banks will be subject to credit constraints.

As of today, some accounts say the bills will include authority for the SEC to suspend mark-to-market. But the SEC and the banking agencies already have the authority to suspend it and use any accounting rules they wish. Since they have been resistant to doing so thus far, even in the midst of this crisis, putting in what amounts to at best Congressional “wishes” will likely not move these agencies. The only way Congress could make a meaningful change would be to require this suspension of rules, and lawmakers do not seem willing to do that yet.

Posted by Jeff G. @ 12:18pm
187 comments | Trackback

Comments (187)

  1. Okay, so how likely is it that we are all screwed?

    I don’t know what to think about this because on one hand, financial chicken littles are making a good case for the bailout and making me very scared…but on the other hand, why aren’t more people supporting it then?

    And more importantly, is it true that nobody is going to be able to get home loans in the future?

    I called my reps the other day and demanded that they take ACORN and other pork off the bill; other than that, what can we do?

  2. Refrigerator boxes? Not me, pal.

    If we’re headed for another depression, I’m going the Joe Kennedy route. Find a need and fill it, for big bux.

    Legal schmegal.

  3. I’ll repost this from the “bracelet” thread as it seems relevant to the question raised by “Maybe now panic will really set in, and a fiscally-responsible attempt to clean up the mess can be put together.

    On the “What do we do in the alternative front” watch this piece from CNBC this a.m., Chris Whelan again, riding his “let the insolvent banks fail, put our money to work in the solvent banks, because we’re going to end up there in the end anyway” hobbyhorse.

  4. Many thanks to San-Fran-Nan for her delightful, hyper-partisan, anti-RethugliKKKan diatribe she delivered just prior to the vote; poor Dale Carnegie training there FO-SHO!

    Now Boehner is sayin’ the same thing, and promising to twist arms hard overnight…

    Boy, the Dems and their allies in the MSM will lambaste the Republicans for this…

    But I guess like Popeye, after that speech they said “I’ve had all I can stands, and I can’t stands no more”…

  5. Oh great, Now O! is th’owin’ his two cents in…And once again, acting like it was the rights fault that we’re in this mess to begin with.

  6. of the 5 stocks that are up in the S&P 500 today, 3 are P&G, Campbells, Molson Coors. Toilet paper, Soup and Beer. My faith in the system is restored.

    Another is Biogen, don’t know what they make, but if its anti-diarhea meds, there is a God.

  7. I got the volvo armored up, my mohawk groomed, and my hockey mask is freshly painted. I got the PA system hooked up and the crossbow mounted and I’m headed to the nearest shell station with my four boys…

    “just walk away…Just…walk away…”

  8. Find a need and fill it, for big bux.

    WORD.

    “Moats are Us. We’ll throw the alligators in for free! Call now!”

  9. This might be a good time to find a house to squat in.

  10. Just invest in cardboard box making companies

  11. Meanwhile, overseas

  12. This might be a good time to find a house to squat in.

    Did you go heavy on the BeneFiber again Pablo?

  13. So, when does the bank run start? How much time have I got before all my money goes away?

  14. It’s OK, alp. I’ll stake my claim to a crib with at least 1.5 baths.

  15. I watched what I thought was a horrendously-partisan procedural fuckup on Pelosi’s part — being granted one minute to speak (why was she Speaking? If she was there, why wasn’t she doing her job as Speaker — except that that job requires her to keep her mouth shut), and taking 16 minutes to blame the Bush Administration for everything — and I seriously wondered why the Republican Whatever (I tuned in to C-SPAN late; sorry) didn’t point out the Procedural Violation —

    — and then I heard Boehner say, after the vote, that “We were all set to vote for this bill, until the Speaker made her partisan speech” … and I thought to myself, “Y’know, McCain is damn near as good a poker player as Bush …”.

    I’m still smirking: Does anyone know why?

  16. Fox News is reporting what Bob Reed mentions above. Our leadership in DC is so bad it hurts my teeth. Between Bush’s uninspiring “reassurance” and Pelosi not being able to help herself in making a public “it’s all the Republican’s fault” JUST BEFORE THE FRIGGIN’ VOTE I’m ready to nuke the entire town from orbit and start over.

    No one but no one seems capable of demonstrating real leadership skills and it’s killing our country. Welcome to four years of “We’re here to clean up the ‘thuglican’s mess” immediately followed by an even bigger mess.

    Now where did I put the keys to the liquor cabinet?

  17. Oops; I still ain’t fuggured out all this HTML-stuff….

  18. OT: Jeff, you should check out this clip by a former Soviet KGB officer about useful idiots: http://tinyurl.com/4qvb5s

  19. Dow down almost 575.

  20. Pelosi speaking before the vote. Blaming the credit crisis on Bush policies and the Republicans.

  21. OMG, “I don’t know why they call it “Great”, but that’s what they call it.” Pelosi mentioning the “Great Depression”

  22. Which is bupkis — Carter and the Dems pushed the CRA, Clinton expanded it and Dodd and Frank played useful stooge preventing any real oversight.

    All Pelosi needed to do was line up her little duckings on her side of the chamber. She couldn’t even do that.

  23. Did Pelosi literally intentionally sabotage the vote so that the media could blame the Republicans for the failure?

    Either intentionally or she truly is the stupidest pol I’ve ever seen.

  24. “I don’t know why they call it “Great”, but that’s what they call it.” Pelosi mentioning the “Great Depression”

    It is amazing to me how many people who think Bush is an idiot haven’t noticed that Pelosi is borderline retarded.

  25. sorry, more accurately, “I don’t know what was so great about the Depression, but that’s the name they give it”

    and we’re supposed to trust her and her cronies to pass a bill that approaches anything like being helpful?

  26. Good Lord!

    Check out Sdferr’s link.

  27. Pelosi is waaaayyyy dumber than anyone else EVER in that position. And now, I believe, it’s time for someone like Boehner to get on the news and talk frankly about how it was Barney Frank and his cohorts that blocked any reasonable attempt to fix this problem before it ever because the hydra that it is. Bipartisan my ass. This is primarily a democrat-caused problem, and it’s about time the Republican leadership began saying so.

  28. I like the “little cat feet” line too. KITTIES!!!!

  29. 2nd part of Pelosi’s astonishing speech before the vote.

  30. Just an aside, Barney Frank yields her 1 minute, she speaks for at least 14 minutes. I’ll bet there are some Democrats that now wish she’d shut up after the first minute passed.

  31. Pelosi is a millennial combination of transcendent arrogance and mental vacuity.

    Nuke DC from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

  32. Hi, Sdferr, have you Trollhammered me?…

  33. No certainly not Challeron, but I do confess to not having caught your post until now. My apologies. I missed it in my haste to catch up to events.

  34. Tangential, but not totally OT:

    Stanley Kurtz lays out ACORN’s role in the housing market meltdown in excruciating detail, and then ties it all back to Obama. Excellent work that the MSM simply won’t do.

  35. Dow now down over 621 and free falling.

    Bill Kristol makes an interesting point:

    He [McCain] should come back to D.C. But this time he needs to take charge–either by laying out the outlines of his own plan, or presiding over meetings at which a real plan that can pass is cobbled together. He might also insist on the immediate passage of a couple of provisions (raising or removing FDIC insurance limits, for example) that could mitigate the damage that could be done over the next few days.

    It’s time for McCain to act decisively, and to lead, as he did with the surge. No one else seems up to it.

    Yep it sure would be nice if someone would show up and actually, you know, LEAD!!!!

  36. transcendent arrogance

    A lovely turn of phrase, again, BJ, one bulging with punitive sincerity.

  37. DOW -691

  38. BJTexs:

    This was the whole problem with Reid lying that McCain simply screwed everything up by coming back to Washington: Didn’t McCain come back because no one was listening to the House Republicans? And didn’t the House Republicans just now say that “Well, we were all for this Bailout until Pelosi broke wind ahead of the vote?

    Seems to me that McCain is Leading, if in a very cagey way….

  39. Dangit, I’m rushing again….

  40. Normally, I go out of my way to avoid hating my political opponents – I try to save my contempt for the ideology, not the human actors. But damn, that hideous old slapper really pushes the envelope.

  41. I’m not disagreeing, Challeron. McCain has been more forthright in trying to get something reasonable done. The congressional Dem leadership has proven itself to be pure, unadulterated, political hacks. Tip O’Neill is rolling over in his grave.

    Both Pelosi and Reid should be tarred and feathered for injecting partisan politics and personal animus into this discussion while their country is teetering on the edge of disaster. Also: How is that multitasking thing working out for Obama?

    Nuke. Them. From. Orbit.

    Dow now down over 715, about 150 points in the last 15 minutes. I’m glad my oven is electric and not gas.

  42. All in all though, today’s Dow fall in no way compares with ’87. 6.5% vs. 25% isn’t exactly Armageddon. Count on the (idiot) press to trumpet DOW DOWN 700 PTS, not Dow down 6.5%.

    [Sorry you guys, I’m not out to bust on you for citing the number, but this is a non-trivial difference.]

  43. Back in a bit; off to buy a case of .40S&W (special Federal load that works really well in my KelTec P40….)

    Screw buying Gold: Invest in Lead….

  44. I just got an email blaming this whole mess on the Republicans, because they had a “veto-proof” majority from 2000 to 2006.

    Obviously the root cause of this is the Democrat’s inability to count.

  45. Hmmm. I could have sworn the Democrats had a majority in the House. Why are they blaming Republicans?

  46. I agree that the die is cast. I’m not really for a bailout at this point. They fucked that up I think. It’s about confidence, and Pelosi’s House blew that to shit I think.

  47. All last week, the stock market’s plunging downward was pointed to as a sign that Washington must step up to the plate — as quickly as possible. Yet ironically last Friday — the day after the bailout talks broke down at the wild White House meeting with the presidential candidates — the Dow Jones industrial average actually went up by 120 points! This doesn’t mean that the market is opposed to the bailout, but it does show that the market volatility is probably as much due to the potential effects of a bailout as it is to a lack of one.

    I have a hard time believing the market would be down 650 points (coming back a little bit) if the bailout had been passed.

    sdferr: Point taken with regards to percentages. I’m more concerned about idiot partisan politics than the Dow at this moment.

  48. Meanwhile, Crude Oil futures fall over $11.00 today, currently trading at $95.05.

  49. I think I can agree with you about the political fallout, BJT, as opposed to the Market fallout (even though the Market fallout is enormous and important to many ordinary people who depend on fixed income for their near term well being). The political business will have longer term consequences fer shure.

    But isn’t the manipulation of just these sorts of economic data the intention of the knowing among the politico/economico reporters of the John Harwood ilk?

  50. I’m not at a level of despair where I’m curious what the American Spectator thinks about the situation though. Does that sound mean? It’s just they so crazy.

  51. Democrats think they benefit the worser the economy is. I know cause NPR has been giddy about the economy all year. I’m not really shocked that they voted to tank it really.

  52. Fortunately this is all part of Ramesh Ponnuru’s brilliant scheme though.

  53. When Stephen F. Austin scratched a line in the sand with his sword in the sand of the Alamo, the men that stepped across it and followed him to death and glory made that choice because of the man who asked the question.

    Nancy Pelosi couldn’t get a wino to follow her into a liquor store. And people are surprised?

    Good job, congress. Now if you can find it within yourselves to unite and generate some new leadership, maybe we might get back some small measure of faith. That’s the good news.

    The bad news is that you have about twenty eight hours to act.

    Those lamp posts on Pennsylvania Avenue aren’t going anywhere.

    FWIW, just found another one of these while out pulling a modest amount of cash out of the bank.

    She’s down in the basement making friends with her new family right now.

  54. Meanwhile, Crude Oil futures fall over $11.00 today, currently trading at $95.05.

    Futures traders are betting on economic slowdown == lower demand.

  55. Ramesh Ponnuru is all about bolstering NPR, hf? (I don’t hardly read the guy at all, so I genuinely don’t know where he stands, ‘cept sorta giving in to his friends at TNR and Atlantic wherever possible.)

  56. Jeff – I think you give Nancy too much credit. She’s not smart enough to sabotage the bill through an overly partisan attack. She really wanted the bill and her speech is the usual partisan b.s. that you expect from a back-bencher. She simply reverted to form – speaking bi-partisan platitudes to the media and twisting the knife the entire time. Unfortunately for her, she actually needed GOP votes this time, since she couldn’t control her own party. If she couldn’t convince more than 2/3 of the Dem vote, she shouldn’t have used her standard attack lines.

  57. oh. no. Ramesh was one of those who said it would be a good idea for the Republicans to lose the Congress in 2006. He’s a lot smarter than me so I’m sure he’s right.

  58. Did Pelosi intentionally sabotage the vote so that the media, already in the bag for Obama, would have cover to blame the Republicans for the bill’s failure?

    And if so, is there any more transparent ploy to put power over the welfare of the country — if in fact the Democrats truly believe that we need this bail out?

    Or is she a tool for the Cloward-Piven Strategy SarahW linked previous, as allahpundit is implying here,

    “The takeaway, a la Rich Lowry, is that the ultimate socialist option here is having a depression drive a terrified public irretrievably to the left.”

    Are the Democrats lying us into an unnecessary Depression of Choice?

  59. I am practically speechless.

  60. Pingback: Breaking:Bailout bill fails…Bitchlosi’s Words That Sealed Its Fate | Right Voices

  61. Have we ever seen Nan and Cynn in the same room?

  62. Reid/Pelosi are the worst ‘leaders’ I’ve ever seen BUT blaming it on her speech is really fkn weak – SHE CALLED US NAMES!!1!

    You don’t like the bill just say so.

  63. Comment by urthshu on 9/29 @ 2:24 pm #

    Reid/Pelosi are the worst ‘leaders’ I’ve ever seen BUT blaming it on her speech is really fkn weak – SHE CALLED US NAMES!!1!

    You don’t like the bill just say so.

     You missed the point.  The Republican leadership had cobbled together what they considered all the votes they could.  It was a shit sandwich, and everybody knew it.  But it was all they had to eat.  Then SanFranNan opened up her yap, and some of the reluctant R’s ran for the tall grass.  Why should they vote for something they don’t really like when madame speaker is pissing in their Cheerios?

  64. urthshu, 94 members of her caucus failed to vote for the bill she was pressing. Failure needn’t be attributed to her speech. But get real. Did she want Republican votes or not? Boehner claims he had 12 votes for the bill that moved to against the bill after her speech. Words? Just words? Please.

  65. One of the truths missing in all of this analysis is that leftists do not want to safeguard the economy or financial markets. They want them to fail, they have no regard for a market-based economy nor the people that fuel and stabilize it. The more the American system quivers, the more the leftists see unique opportunities to crush it, perhaps irreversibly. Think back a few weeks on oil prices and drilling – same reponse. They just cannot say this directly(although given the present state of the media, we are not too far from this being a “safe” viewpoint).

    The mistake is in believing we are on the same team working for the same outcome

  66. urthshu: The problem is that after Pelosi spends 14 minutes just before the vote saying, in so many words, that the bill needs to be passed to bail your stupid asses out of eight years of incompetence, it becomes even more difficult for those of a conservative bent to embrace a bill that they don’t love but are willing to pass as a “country over politics” thing.

    Perhaps they were finally tired of listening to Pelosi talk nice with the media about “bi-partisanship” while sticking them in the gut even though she needed their votes, not having enough members of her own party willing to vote for the bill.! I’m still not convinced that this was the right bill but leadership requires that once the negotiations are done, as the Speaker of the House publicly committed to the “bi-partisan” passing of the bill, you STFU and call the vote.

    She is a hack and a tool.

  67. It’s not so much that she called them names, as that it was a galling display of bad faith on her part.

    “Here, sign on to this piece of paper so we can use your signature as a confession that all this is your fault.”

  68. Why would Republicans vote for a bill framed the way Nancy framed it? Her speech was for them to play on NPR tonight and then announce that Republicans concurred. And then have talking vagina David Brooks purr approvingly. I mean, duh. Good on them. Might be they’re understanding how to play this game.

  69. Final Tally: Dow down 777.68 points, just under 7%. RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!

  70. “Reid/Pelosi are the worst ‘leaders’ I’ve ever seen BUT blaming it on her speech is really fkn weak…

    Okay, bud. Call it weak.

    Maybe the speech was just a tipping point. I wrote a blazingly uncouth post the other day that basically made the case that the Democrats’ actions are what they are because of the fact that past experience has proven to them that they are immune from any cosequences stemming from anything they do.

    They rode to power in 2006 in part because they lined up with the enemy in a time of war.

    Historically, a Democrat majority and a Democrat presidency mean massive redistribution of wealth combined with crippling individual and corporate tax rates.

    Historically, Democrats resist employing U.S. military power… unless it can be proven beyond a doubt that the theater in question holds zero U.S. national interest.

    Historically, Democrats condemn individual pursuit of happiness on a level playing field in exchange for an endless pursuit of some utopic eqaulity of outcomes fantasy. Equal outcomes as defined by them, of course. Sorry white folks, you’s got’s to pay.

    Nancy Pelosi gave a speech marked by a level of dishonesty that was outshone only by her arrogance in delivering it.

    And this is leadership?

    She and her compatriots up there in D.C. have contrived to keep America’s people divided, envious, prejudiced, and in fear of each other for so long that they have failed to recognize catastrophe even as the wave breaks upon them.

    They don’t do consequences. They have had literally decades to get used to the fact that consequences happen to other people… but NOT THEM.

    Until now.

    I wish I had a pitchfork store in Silver Springs. I’d have to set up a coffee service at the cash register to make money off the folks waiting in line. Pitchforks and coffee.

    Cash only.

  71. oh. My mom just got a new puppy. Well, we’re pretending it’s a for real dog. It’s a pekinese. One of the neighbors had a litter of them so she took one. I will meet him at Christmas. I already bought my ticket and all. Also, the economy is in trouble cause they worked all weekend to make it better and finally figured out how but then Nancy Pelosi fucked it up six ways to Sunday.

  72. ohnoes I knewed it was SkyNet. I’m scared for real now, Semanticleo. Stupid algorithms.

  73. Yeah yeah yeah.

    Nobody liked what I had to say, so what. I’m AGREEING with you guys that Pelosi is teh suck.

    All I’m saying in addition to that is blaming it on her speech – and I’m seeing blogs do that mostly, not congresscritters – is weak.

    And you know as well as I that that’s exactly how it’ll get ‘framed’ in the MSM. Weak sob-sister shit you wouldn’t take from a 6yo girl.

    Stop digging. Just repair whats going on.

  74. Oh, for the love of Pete: Pelosi is giving a wrap up press conference in which she’s blaming Republicans for “not delivering on their promised votes” while stressing the “bi-partisan work on the bill.” Not a peep about her 14 minute pre-vote rant, not exactly in the spirit of bi-partisanship, and the possible effect it might have had on the vote.

    I’m really developing a hate for this woman and I hate myself for that.

    What next? Harry Reid reminding us how McCain did nothing to help and a statement from Obama touting his multitasking skills? No wonder why most people hate politics and Congress continues to hover between 10% – 17% approval ratings.

    AAARRRRGH!

  75. urthshu, just how the hell is the minority supposed to fix the problem?

  76. Nancy Pelosi was given a lot of responsibility and she failed. A dozen Republicans just got sick of her shit. There’s no reason Nancy couldn’t have picked up a dozen Democrats. It’s just she’s a really crappy leader.

  77. Do you think we’re going to see something more to our liking now? I think you’ll now see a bill more socialist than the one proferred and it will get passed by that Dem majority.

    Congress is now on break though, so what the Hell.

  78. Pingback: Oregon Commentator » Blog Archive » Your Tax Dollars at Work! [UPDATED]

  79. urthshu –

    Gotta agree with you on the “framing” part. No doubt.

    Man, that Pelosi lady is a demon with a shovel. Absolutely will NOT stop digging…

  80. I’m not at a level of despair where I’m curious what the American Spectator thinks about the situation though. Does that sound mean? It’s just they so crazy.

    The guy writes for the WSJ and is attached to the CEI, hf.

  81. Wiki — The Pelosi family has a net worth of over US$25 million, primarily from investments. In addition to their large portfolio of jointly owned San Francisco Bay Area real estate, she also has millions of dollars in stock from publicly traded companies such as Microsoft, Amazon.com and AT&T. In 2003, the Pelosi family sold their eight-acre (three hectare) Rutherford vineyard. Pelosi continues to be among the richest members of Congress.[9]

  82. A more socialist bill will be more popular than the bill on offer? You’ve got to be kidding. For one thing, Bush can veto the bill. For another, the Senate Republicans can filibuster the damned thing. How can they not after this? Who thinks this bill, let alone a worse one festooned with Democrat goodies is going to be acceptable to the voters? It isn’t clear to many people that this bill can even achieve its proclaimed aims.

    Oh McCain talking now: “Now is not the time to fix the blame. Its time to fix the problem.”

    Idiot.

  83. That is, McCain is an idiot, not you urthshu.

  84. oh. Okay. American Spectator just has bad connotations from back when… I think it was David Brock was writing for them.

  85. Any body have any ideas about a moderately priced ($400-$700) rifle capable of taking down a Buck? Too many deer here roaming unmolested and not in my freezer/stomach.

  86. >>For one thing, Bush can veto the bill. For another, the Senate Republicans can filibuster the damned thing.

    Which gets reported how, again?
    You don’t think the Dems are politicking this process? This was theater. The next step will be too.

  87. Pelosi tried to get republicans to sign their death warrant while allowing blue dog democrats to vote against it to shore up their conservative credentials at election time.

    It failed. The House Republicans called bullshit.

    Back to the staffroom.

  88. >>That is, McCain is an idiot, not you urthshu

    Nonsense nonsense I have my moments LOL

  89. But for real, urthshu – the dozen Republicans what may have bailed cause of Nancy’s framing of the bill… that would not have tipped the vote to passage of the bill even if they hadn’t changed their minds. Cause of the margin. This was a big fail on Nancy’s part from the get-go, and she made it worse. On purpose?

  90. And what is the audience saying urthshu? Why has the House website failed today? What is the volume of calls and e-mails against this bill (and likely any sequel) to Reps and Sens. today and every day for the last week at least? Whose side is that audience in your metaphorical theater on?

  91. Sure, maybe on purpose hf. But even Furry Nancy is enough of a politician take advantage of the resulting chaos.

  92. unknown who the audience is yet, sdferr. Some of it needs the 24 hour cycle.

  93. “How will it be reported” is tantamount to asking who’s side the media is on, but we already know the answer to that question. The follow on question, the question to which we do not know the answer, is, does the mass of the voters trust the media to steer aright, or to steer astray. I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know the vehement outrage at the bailout that I hear on every side I turn my ears.

  94. Comment by Dash Rendar on 9/29 @ 3:24 pm #

    The prototypical deer rifle would be a Remington model 700 in .270 or 30-06, though .243 is also a good caliber. It is a bolt-action rifle that retails for under $700.

  95. “Comment by Semanticleo on 9/29 @ 2:52 pm #

    Happy;

    Git sum TrollHammer, Today!!!”

    Naw, it’s too much fun making fun of ignorant assholes like you.

  96. For one thing, Bush can veto the bill.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….whew!! Thanks, man, I needed a really good laugh.

  97. “Comment by B Moe on 9/29 @ 2:14 pm #

    Did Pelosi intentionally sabotage the vote so that the media, already in the bag for Obama, would have cover to blame the Republicans for the bill’s failure?”

    95 Dems voted agains the bill in the House.

    How is that the Republicans fault?

  98. Comment by cranky-d on 9/29 @ 3:38 pm

    gracias amigo

  99. Oh, cleo is commenting in this thread? Didn’t see him. Thanks, TrollHammer™!

  100. Comment by Dash Rendar on 9/29 @ 3:24 pm #

    If on a budget, consider the mosin-nagant that TMJ referred to earlier. Much like 30-06, bolt action, can be found with scopes, cheapish ammo, etc.

  101. 95 Dems voted agains the bill in the House.

    How is that the Republicans fault?

    I suspect that many of the opposed Dems were such b/c of the removed ACORN, etc. language. So…Furry Nancy could just pop that back in et voila! the narrative [which B. Frank is already blabbing, BTW] becomes:
    Republicans cried about the speech and Wall St. went apeshit, so we Dems saved the day. In oh, about 3 weeks.

    Goodbye election.

  102. Comment by urthshu on 9/29 @ 3:43 pm

    A Russian gun, I’m intrigued..

  103. Maybe now we can talk seriously about a real solution:

    Charge Americans $20 a pop to throw chunks of road-kill at a pilloried Pelosi and Reid.

    Road-kill cleaned up, 700 billion raised in 2 weeks.

  104. Do not think I supported the ACORN stuff, either. I think of this whole scheme as a sort of prisoner’s dilemma.

  105. I don’t unnerstand the part about the guns. But for real all these guys that are like over 40 and wear sandals to work need to be on the list.

  106. #90
    Military surplus Finnish M39 or surplus swiss K31. Either will cost less than $400 dollars and easily handle a deer. If you insist on a sporting rifle, Savage has some good combinations that are inexpensive and extremely accurrate.

    Polosi sucks donkey balls.

  107. Dash –
    You can find them cheap, easily under 200, on many sites. Bonus: You can get the ones with integrated bayonets to skewer zombies with.

  108. You do understand that the “bill” I’m referring to in the passage you mock, kelly, is this monstrosity posited by urthshu?:

    Do you think we’re going to see something more to our liking now? I think you’ll now see a bill more socialist than the one proferred and it will get passed by that Dem majority.

  109. “integrated bayonets to skewer zombies with”

    Read my effing mind. Thanks all, now I gots me a shopping list.

  110. Well, jeez, but the narrative was going to be against the Republicans anyways. But my sense is we’re in a more general wait and see period since the plan wasn’t very popular to begin with. I know… let’s see what NPR says. This is where you can get the official Democrat narrative for reals.

    Market analysts said Paulson and the Bush administration more generally were at least partially to blame for stirring up the sturm und drang that ended with Monday’s stock market plunge.

    The Bush economic team has been saying for weeks that the financial world as we know it would end if a rescue plan was not put in place in short order. So when the bill failed in the House, investors naturally ran for the closest exits. For all his doom-casting after the vote, Paulson did inject a faint note of confidence. He said the banking system so far “has been holding up very well, considering all of the pressures.”*

    That’s probably the main framing they will use right now – not so much accusing the Republicans of tanking the bill only to have them heralded as hero people… that is not part of the plan I don’t think.

  111. @74 Comment by Semanticleo on 9/29 @ 2:43 pm

    BECAUSE OF THE LUDDISM!!!

  112. Not mocking, Sdferr. It’s just that at this point Bush isn’t going to veto anything no matter how larded up it is with leftie swag.

  113. L. Kudlow, from urthshu’s link:

    So things like the bankruptcy judges setting mortgage terms and rates, the ACORN slush-fund spending, the union proxy for corporate boards, stricter limits on executive compensation, and much larger equity ownership of selling banks through warrants will all find itself back in the new bill. Of course, this scenario will lose more Republican votes. But insiders tell me President Bush will take Secretary Paulson’s advice and sign that kind of legislation.

    Maybe it is so.

    But then I wonder, why “insiders” un-named? Could it be because they don’t know what they are talking about vis a vis Pres. Bush’s final disposition and simultaneously have a personal interest in any form of the bill being passed?

    Funny, it just could be. I think you are wrong there, kelly, but only the events will tell.

  114. Pingback: Democrat=Socialist

  115. No, for real. The hope is that the market will tank and tank. This is why Nancy adjourned. Duh. But that is enough in itself without enacting a bunch of socialisms now when they can do that more better later with Baracky.

    That is how they will think I think.

  116. Darn late to this thread.

    #1 PC:

    As opposed to Mr. C. Little, there is the classical example of Cassandra.

    Most people may be opposed to this because they do not yet understand the implications, or if they do understand, believe those implications. Here is something – oil has dropped. Could it be traders anticipating reduced demand due to a global recession? I don’t know – I’m not a financial wizard.

  117. Dash Rendar –

    I love me some Mosins, but I’ve got the eye to pick maybe winners and the time to make “close” change into “jwill do”.

    If I had to have one rifle for end times, it would be a lever action in .30-30. Marlin is my preferred brand, but that’s just me. Second choice would be something bolt in .30-06 or .270. There’s nothing wrong with buying either used as long as you know what to look for, or have someone that you trust does to come with you. Used typically beats new by at least twenty five percent, or I buy new.

    I own a Rem 700 ADL in ’06. It can kill anything in North America, and do it out to six hundred yards with the dope I can put on the scope. Ammo is cheap (EOTWAWKI ammo stash is typically one hundred rounds per caliber per weapon) and versatile – multiple bullet BC’s and grain weights/projectile styles/velocity ranges for anything from varmints up to the Great bears. I find that Winchester hunting ammo is generally more consistent than other shelf brands. This is their stock stuff – no need to load up on “premium” at more than half again as much gelt per box of twenty.

    If you live in the woods, you might consider a lever gun in .357. You have a brush deer gun at the same time as being “cowboy tactical” with a carbine you can feed the same as your pistol.

    I recommend Ruger GP revolvers or the older Security Six model, of which I own two, because they might break someday, but it will only piss off your great grandkid when it does.

    Sorry for the threadjack. File this under “news you can use”.

  118. #14 JimK:

    I don’t know how long you have – we have. FDIC and FSLIC are probably financed to cover an average amount of failures over a time frame of years. A real panic run on local banks may push them beyond their reserves.

    Well, we’ll see in a few weeks.

  119. On the one hand, we could be facing the biggest financial meltdown since the great depression.

    On the other hand, we could be facing a Venezuelan style state after the election.

    On the third hand, the Crazy Eddies in Congress will fuck us up whatever happens.

    Which is nice.

  120. I’ve seen statements that the Fed “made available” hundreds of billions in funds TODAY just in the course of business.

    And the magic number is “700 Billion” for a fix?

    I’m thinking there’s no fix; nothing that the congress can do. I might be willing to extend a little faith except we always get back to that “who are you going to believe” thing and the name “Pelosi” shows up like a steel post through the oil pan of my truck.

    You might see a school shooter carrying a rifle into your neighborhood school and immediately call 911, alert the hospital, knock on the neighbors’doors before you even heard the first shot.

    But some of those kids are already dead before the first cop shows up. And just because the cops show up doesn’t mean that the killing will stop.

    Congress refused to even dial 911 until this particular shooter was on his first reload; why, you ask?

    Because they can’t do two things at once.

  121. Can anyone explain to me why so many (KevinB, Ace, SteveMG in HotAir comments for examples) seem to believe that failure to pass this bill leads inescapably to more socialism in the future? Why does a potential market downdraft make people think Democrats have the answers? After a century of failed socialist policy all over the world, while the Chinese are on the rise economically only after they abandoned any pretense to socialism? I don’t get it.

  122. I think congress failing to pass this bill combined with shucking off until Thursday will actually work out in the country’s favor. By giving enough citizens a chance to finally see their government in action in a real emergency, maybe enough will do the right thing in November and throw a goodly number of incumbents out.

    Media is toeing a straight party line.

    I see Pelosi coming back with a Democrat – only bill on Thursday. Dem – only in that it’s got ACORN and pork and back doors and another quarter billion dollars and the monolithic support of media.

    And it won’t make it out of the house; the email/phone call numbers against today’s version are staggering. By Thursday, hell, Barney Frank probably won’t vote for it.

    Bush won’t get a chance to sign anything.

  123. Total MeltDown of the Supply-Sidin, Laissez-Faire Reaganauts.

    You saw it here……………………………………………

  124. Sdferr:

    On the one hand… Sorry. I was looking for two things to set up my Crazy Eddie crack and, having read a few blogs lately, (notably this one), about how the Dems and their media allies will set up the evil Bush and the rethugs to take the blame for all this so they win the election, thereby installing O! who appears to pine after a Chavez style republic, the two I chose seemed apt.

  125. “Chavez style republic”

    Not good enough.

    Bring back the Guillotine!!!!!

  126. #85 Salt Lick:

    I guess that if things go south big time Pelosi will take some bad hits. San Francisco real estate? Driven up in value due to the housing bubble – that burst must hurt, and she can take it and like it.

    Me? I’m glad I rent right now.

  127. “Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone’s death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn’t there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who’s to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn’t be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you’ve seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot.”

    ‘V’

  128. No need to apologize to me Kevin, cause I don’t believe I know what the hecks gonna happen and I don’t begrudge anyone their opinion on this stuff. And if you were only kidding about the outcomes, no probs either, please accept my apology for missing the point.

    In short, I really would like to understand the chain of reasoning that get folks who hold it to that conclusion. For all I know, they could be right. But for my part, I can’t get there from here.

  129. #128 Sdferr:

    Will the Chinese be on the rise if the global market hits a hard recession? Hitler pulled Germany out of the economic doldrums, but only by spending far above what could sustained – I mean really going above and beyond. Conquests kept them going after that.

    So what will happen if things get tight in the PRC?
    Interesting times, I think.

  130. Comment by Semanticleo on 9/29 @ 2:43 pm #

    Cleo,

    Below is his bio from his blog that you sited(while mispelling his name BTW….although it might be more appropriate);

    “I live in Saratoga Springs, New York.
    (Mailing address: PO Box 193, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866)

    I was born in New York City, grew up in Manhattan, attended the High School of Music & Art (1966) and then went off to college upstate at SUNY Brockport, where I majored in Theater (1971)

    I was a reporter for several daily newspapers and an editor at Rolling Stone Magazine in the early days. I dropped out of the salaried world to write books in 1975, and moved to Saratoga in 1976 where I remain happily.”

    Who the fuck cares what this asshat thinks. When I need some pointers in the thespian arts KUNTsler is my man(?). Otherwise he should just STFU and let the grown ups talk.

    Sorry for my bluntness but I have taken a beating in the market today and I have little patience for the useful idiots who are being led like sheep to the slaughter.

    Oh! and Pelosi, Frank, Obama and Dodd can go fuck themselves too.

    I am pulling my money out of the market ASAP and going down to the Sportsman’s on University and buying a 30-30 and a bunch of ammo for the .357 rev.

  131. More to the point, Mikey, what is Putin going to do? What Ahmadinejad? what Chavez, Assad, the NORKs, the Sauds? The Chicoms will likely be relatively well off compared to these one trick ponies.

  132. If the Chinese get hungry, it may suck to be Canada.

    I don’t foresee O! doing anything about it.

  133. Both the Chavez and Amadenijad regimes are dependent on cash flow. Not “need to have” but must have obscene amounts of money flowing in in a continuous stream.

    Think Tijuana on a national scale and you’ve got Venezuela covered. Iran’s unemployment runs double digits, there are already gas lines as a daily feature of life, and they have the youngest population in Asia.

    There is the potential for quite a bit of bloodshed here, boys and girls. I’m sure the first spasms will be quite pointless, but don’t doubt for a moment there aren’t “plans in the can” intended to exploit events such as those we are witnessing tonight. I hope our friends on the Left don’t decide that “the time is right”.

    Today’s vote, if nothing else, should have dispelled that notion.

  134. “can go fuck themselves too.”

    Don’t forget The Decider……………….

  135. Yeah, Rolling Stone, the La Paz chamber of commerce newsletter, back they were huffing everything in sight.
    So he was never sane, his endorsement of the illuminati like pet rock theory of ‘peak oil’ was par for the course.
    He’s right up there with Juneau’s resident anarchist Stuart Arthur Cohen, who vomited up his poorly written version of
    London’s “Iron Heel”; “the Army of the Republic” which made root for the incipient fascist police state. Hey liberals have been promising this for years, yet like the late Jean Jacques Revel, put “fascism is always descending on America,
    but always falls in Europe” Of Gefilte fish, or lox boy’s ramblings on the brain dead adaptation of a generally superior work, V for Vendetta; one can only say, that Michael Moore’s recent excrescence tops it in inanity
    If one were to make more viable analogies; the Menatep/Yukos scams of the Post-Soviet e

  136. For real also, way too many Democrats voted against the bill for the media to run too far with the blameyness I think. A lot of them did so cause of the electabilityness. They’ll have to be careful I think. About the blameyness. You look for that razor what Occam uses you’re gonna find it clenched between Nancy Pelosi’s veiny thighs is where you’ll find it I think.

  137. You guys are already diving on the carcass of our economy. Love it. Plus, don’t conflate me with Nancy Pants Pelosi; she is a vexing ratbastard. But whatever little stunt she pulled that deflated this Hindenburg has my approval.

  138. I’d like to see a collapse of the Bushian ponzi schematic and a flood of Rovian culture tears.

    Hi, cynn.

  139. I actually agree with you on this one Cynn.

    I say let it burn. Especially if the “cure” is “Congressional oversight.”

    Sorry, but those guys have completely failed in that role in more ways than just this one. I can’t imagine any scenario in which I’m willing to grant them oversight. They don’t, collectively, grasp the difference between the verbs ‘overisght’ and ‘overlook.’

  140. …Are you saying I’m too technical? It’s simple to me: annoint a nose-picking moron and harvest the wind.

  141. Thanks for having the balls, RTO, and I’m not surprised to see they come from you. I will do anything to protect and defend my country, and one of those things is fall on the Wall Street sword to cause the calamity that I know we will all suffer and survive. What I won’t do is will it on the children we are beholden to.

  142. I’m investing all my money in books, and people who think like cynn.

  143. Shut up thor; did you get my Lillian Gish performance just now!

  144. I like the talking TV heads who constantly watch the market and mark it to the bail out prospects, as if we haven’t survived a few massive stock market plummets in the last few decades.

    It’s as if the Wall Street Geckos can’t do anything to scare us because we’ve seen the not-so ending before.

  145. not-so dramatic

  146. Not dramatic enough? I can crank it to Rocky levels.

  147. I’ve come to the conclusion that bust and boom cycles are normal and that the artificial mechanisms we’ve inserted in order to prevent the busts, has has two unintended consequences. The cycle has become boom and bailout, and, until a bust is allowed to happen, the bailouts will become bigger and bigger, or, the bust when it is allowed, will be deeper and deeper.

    This bailout, if it happens will only set the stage for a bigger bust or bigger bailout in a few more years.

  148. Your Lillian Gish referentiality filled my consciousness, then made my balls itch, so I can’t really say how I truly feel of your effect in sub-totality.

    I had to look her up, and yes, suddenly Birth of a Nationey you’ve become, and sort’a Tamara de Lempicka-ish too.

  149. Plus, Geckos are lizards, so enough said.

  150. I think Wall Street is melting like ice because they read the lips of the hockey mom. I don’t think they want that smacking lip-glossed pig as a referee. They’re pre-aborting a D-cup zebra. Conspiracy, it is.

  151. In all seriousness, enough with the crap tossed at Gov. Palin. She frankly hasn’t done anything but be dragged into the shitstorm. Stick to the damn issues.

  152. Looks like cockroach shit; must be thor.

  153. “She frankly hasn’t done anything but be dragged into the shitstorm.”

    But she IS hot!

    Nothin makes me hornier than a phony christian………….

  154. She is the biggest, stupidest Republican liar EVAH! She’s an issues whirl storm. A backfiring stuntstress. If McCain would buy her a pony maybe she’d just go away.

  155. He’s just trying to make me perform an autolobotomy; forunately, I don’t have access to an icepick or skewer right now. Shut up, thor, and volunteer at the library.

  156. Just give it up, cynn. It’s an obsession. The uppity snow-nigger must NOT be permitted to contaminate the water fountains decent people have to drink from.

    Regards,
    Ric

  157. Incidentally, you guys DO realize that thor is one of your own who is playing with you, right? He can’t possibly be one of ours.

  158. thor, baby, for real, what did you make today, shorty?

  159. What does a volunteer do at the library and is it truly useful?

  160. Usually they just check out the internet, if you know what I mean.

  161. For real I think mostly this would fall under the heading of “community service” and it would be kind of wrong to take one of those slots from a criminal or more likely some pseudo-criminal and make his ass pick up trash on the highway.

  162. Me I would feel bad anyway.

  163. D’oh but your knew that. I wandered all into that shit.

  164. Whereas “community organizing” would allow the criminal to establish a bricks and mortar enterprise. Now I get how y’all think.

  165. As long as it’s not another sushi restaurant. I mean, jeez. Even though I do have a favorite one cause the one I like uses a lot of tomatoes on some of their rolls and a lot of places don’t even have any tomato anywhere at all. But except for that. Also no tattoo places. That’s just stale I think. I wish the used book store thing would make a comeback but they seem to have sort of peaked and nobody noticed.

  166. Incidentally, you guys DO realize that thor is one of your own who is playing with you, right? He can’t possibly be one of ours.

    Wrong, cynn. He crosses lines one of ours wouldn’t.

    Embrace the thor, cynn.

  167. I wish the used book store thing would make a comeback

    I think Amazon killed them off, mostly, at least for me.

    If I want a used book now I always get it on Amazon.

    I don’t think the smart used book folks suffered, though — they’re the ones selling them on Amazon now. They probably make more money not having to pay for a storefront.

    But yeah, it was fun to browse in those.

  168. What lines do you refer to?

  169. …Although I realize I’m not supposed to be engaging in this at all. Mustn’t feed the starving, and all that.

  170. I lurves some Half-Price Books.

    And they sell through Amazon as well.

  171. The crude, rude and ill-bred lines.

  172. No, I’m all for used-bookstores. That’s where I met most of my exes. I should have known, but still great to lounge in!

  173. Pingback: What The Heck? The Bailout Failed? « Blog Entry « Dr. Melissa Clouthier

  174. KLEINKARIERTE BEAMTEN

  175. Sounds like used-men stores, cynn.


  176. Comment by cynn on 9/29 @ 8:56 pm #

    thor, baby, for real, what did you make today, shorty?

    C’mon cynn, you can’t put a dollar tag on forward consciousness and enlightenment.

    Libraries are temples of civic good. I should go more often.

  177. Pingback: Tennesseefree.com » “It’s pretty much a nightmare,”, or, the bloody morning after

  178. Incidentally, you guys DO realize that thor is one of your own who is playing with you, right? He can’t possibly be one of ours.

    Not a true Scotsman, eh?

  179. Somebody noticed some missing votes that MIGHT HAVE SAVED AMERICA. EGAD.

  180. Pingback: Pelosi Reid Obama - Power and Party before Country

  181. “If I want a used book now I always get it on Amazon.”

    Or eBay, I usually check both.

  182. cynn – I think it is the decency line, as in “Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”

    He crossed that sometime ago when he put up comments about a Downs Syndrome baby, comments that our mutual host here removed. It is all about him, cynn. Every other person is merely a prop in his malignant play about his own self.

  183. e

  184. I know all that, but instincitively I defend the fools.

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