Ray Robison, National Defense Examiner:
A spate of recent news articles demonstrate that the Iraqi Police are finally stepping up to the plate. The rebuilding of law enforcement in Iraq was one of the most important objectives outlined by the Bush Administration in the early days of the war. That step would turn out to be one of the most difficult challenges of the rebuilding and reconciliation efforts in Iraq.
Throughout the reconstruction effort the US military has been far more successful in retraining and standing up the Iraqi military to defend the fledgling democratic government. Although that effort took much longer than most envisioned it was gradually succeeding while the effort to rebuild Iraqi law enforcement was flailing. The development of the Iraqi Police force was an unmitigated disaster for many years. But they are finally catching up.
Centcom is reporting that the Iraqi Police are now the front line defense in Baghdad. The article reveals that:
[...] Iraqi Police are continuing the transition of becoming the primary ISF in Baghdad by taking over at checkpoints to provide the first line of security for the citizens here.
In recent months the process of turning all Iraqi Army manned checkpoints over to the IP has been very successful.The Salhiya District is the first of the Baghdad districts to have all of its checkpoints turned over to IP control.
The LAT Times blog also features an article about the graduation of 21 Iraqi Police Officers in a first for Iraq – they are women:
In the five years since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, women have faced particular struggles. Security concerns have led many families to keep girls out of school; violence targeting mainly men has left hundreds of thousands of women widowed and struggling to make ends meet; religious conservatism has made it more difficult for women to hold jobs outside the home, particularly in male-dominated fields such as police work.
But women who aspire to be cops are finally getting their chance, due in large part to the unfortunate spike in females being used to carry out bombings. Recognizing a need for women to frisk other women, whom male police will not touch, the Ministry of Interior appears to be relaxing what had been opposition to the idea of females carrying weapons and working in dangerous environments.
On Wednesday, the first 21 women to graduate from police training in Diyala province got their certificates, along with hundreds of men who joined them in celebration. [...]
[…]
It’s clear that as the Iraqis take more and more responsibility the US military is able to reduce forces in theater. If the gains continue our soldiers will leave a legacy of law enforcement that will be the lead in providing internal security and maybe even bring about social reforms that are essential to a fair and equitable democracy.
On a side note, I find it more than a little ironic that while an armed woman in Iraq is hailed as an indication of progressive policies in our own country a woman, Governor Sarah Palin who hunts is characterized by the media as a “gun totting†hick.
Well, that’s because she is shooting moose, Ray. Were she strapping on body armor as part of an oath to protect the safety and belongings of rich coastal liberals, she’d be appropriately celebrated for her empowered womynness. Which is to say, tolerated, for the sake of self-interest — even while lip service is given to her blue collar heroism.
But that doesn’t mean that when she’s off work she’d be invited to any feminist salons, mind. I mean, shit, man: have you ever even seen “Saving Grace”?
Because I have. And let’s just say, that kind of “femininity” will never do.
This is something we can agree with Jill and Mandy and Jessica on, right? Stay right there, I’ll go find their posts celebrating these women’s progress.
they probably aren’t tall enough, Pablo.
did u see the Major’s comment Jeff?
awesome
maggie, i have intellectual curiousity as to how Palin’s height may or may not affect her perception by the electorate.
i know full well intellectual curiousity is something you cannot unnerstand. ;)
i think u have to admit that there is some effort to obscure it, in all honesty.
Why?
Nishi, you have idiotic curiosity with no intellectual dimension whatsoever. Please confine your thoroughly debunked speculation to the dead thread, where it can mingle with your booster seat and rolling track speculations. Thank you in advance.
Now, I’m gonna going find those “Hooray, Iraqi ladies!” posts.
Don’t let the nishibot threadjack again. Please.
Shutt the fuck up, nishi, you ignorant slut.
– Ok. Could we just get past this whole “feminist” idea, because if its the 2nd wave you’re referring to here, the mask has been ripped off that whole scam for some time now.
– The 2nd wave is not a womyns movement at all, but just another tool for recruitment for Progressivism.
– Is there still a few kids under the age of 7 out there someplace that are in the dark on this?
“Comment by quellcrist falconer on 9/20 @ 1:56 pm #
i think u have to admit that there is some effort to obscure it, in all honesty.
Why?”
Because you;re a fucking ignorant idiot with PMS.
No, nishi, you are not exhibiting “intellectual curiosity”.
You are exhibiting the manic obsession of a ten-year-old with ADHD and a two-digit IQ. Drop it.
Regards,
Ric
I think nishi’s new obsession is cute.
and also…why would Palins height be such an emotionally charged topic that SaraW would lie about giving me a link?
i think SarahW is one of the more levelheaded and honest commenters here.
curiouser and curiouser.
said Alice.
Ah, well, back to reality:
The situation in Iraq has turned out so well that, as I’ve said before, my sons unit 3/8 Marines, is being sent to Afghanistan, instead of Iraq. They’re at 29 Palms as we speak, training up.
“Comment by Carin on 9/20 @ 2:02 pm #
I think nishi’s new obsession is cute.”
PMS is never cute.
“Comment by quellcrist falconer on 9/20 @ 2:02 pm #
and also…why would Palins height be such an emotionally charged topic that SaraW would lie about giving me a link?
i think SarahW is one of the more levelheaded and honest commenters here.
curiouser and curiouser.”
You’re a fucking idiot, nishi.
FOAD.
Shorter P’Brain – Where’s my splooge rag?
– Shut up thor, you ignorant slut.
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:05 pm #
Somebody crashed into the septic tank.
Again.
I can tell because the shit is talking.
consider this…PW attacks me just as vehemently as the leftist media attacks Palin.
im your mirror.
Shorter P’Brain – Where’s my splooge rag?
You’re wiping your mouth with it, fucknozzle.
Again.
As long as you supply the abuse they so desperately crave, they will remain.
Sarah Palin is too short to be a hick-cop and too dumb to our a Veep.
“im your mirror.”
– Its cracked.
I know, but thor just loves to play “yankee-my-wankee” while he’s being insulted online.
A true, dyed-in-the-wool masochist.
The pathetic, stupid fuck.
sorry
“Comment by quellcrist falconer on 9/20 @ 2:09 pm #
consider this…PW attacks me just as vehemently as the leftist media attacks Palin.
im your mirror.”
Shut up, nishi, you ignorant slut.
Out flew the web and floated wide
the mirror crack’d from side to side
the curse is upon me!
You’re no mirrror, nishi, you’re an ignoranus with OCD and PMS.
An ugly, ugly combination.
*Ignoranus: A person who’s both stupid and an asshole.
*PMS: Palin Madness Syndrome
In the five years since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, women have faced particular struggles and then blah blah litany of woe blah … but it’s probably not unrelated that Iraqis have for years now seen American servicewomen performing admirably. You would think the stupid Los Angeles Times might could have mentioned this while they were larding their post with speculative irrelevant bullshit.
So many Larry Craigs and so few pacifiers midst the Palin howlers.
Back on topic, I’m glad we’ve trained some Iraqi police women. Maybe for a few billion dollars more we can train some Iraqi meter maids.
Well, this thread is shaping right up.
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:18 pm #
Please ignore the talking pile of shit.
Thank you.
Jack Keane on the surge and it success so far. WSJ.
s
O’Brain, whenever you go “duuuuuh” is it because you hope Sister Sarah returns the Alaskan ‘cuda call?
quellcrist falconer
More like misterslater’s parrot, ‘zono.
Best of luck to your son, O’Brain.
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:31 pm #
Did you have a point with that sentance or were you just shitting on Jeff’s property?
Again.
We coastal citizens would exert pressure on our police chiefs until she was fired.
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:38 pm #
That’s becasue you’re a hater, thor.
And stupid.
But that’s a given.
Clam your Reskanklican Palin-hole, O’Brain, ya slur-queefing slut.
Do you blow your daddy with that mouth, thor?
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:41 pm #
HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
So stupid he can’t even come up with a good insult.
Pitiful, just pitiful.
“Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 9/20 @ 2:41 pm #
Do you blow your daddy with that mouth, thor?”
Seals, too.
Just seen Star Trek Nemesis for the first time, eh?
Contriving Retriglicans fluffing.
“Shorter P’Brain – Where’s my splooge rag?”
By your mirror as always, you useless pus-ridden turd.
Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 2:52 pm #
Do you speak English?
Sad, lonely little boy.
He speaks “English Major,” as in “look at me I fuckin’ read books” while trying not to be a punchline. Invoice on wife arrived via Moscow – latest payment due.
Anyone have any fucking clue what the original post was about?
Oh, yeah:
Because those people are over there and not here. They’re obviously not our class, and could never even be mistaken for it.
If Palin’s elected, the folks heaping scorn on her will be expected to show her some respect. They cannot tolerate the idea.
Oh, and I don’t think they’d have any less scorn if Palin were in a police force in the US. One of the “white policemen killing our young black men” cited as a spur for the 2001 Cincinnati riots was a policewoman who shot a guy who had climbed into her car and shot her; police are automatically suspect and counted among the “oppressors”.
“Because those people are over there and not here. They’re obviously not our class, and could never even be mistaken for it.
And, HURUMMPHH, [lowers voice] they’re brown.
Progwessives really can’t stand brown people.
Standing up the Afghan Police is also the hardest part of that job.
The Germans were the initial police trainers. We took it over while I was there last. Now, I hear, the Russians are volunteering to take on a part of it.
Because those people are over there and not here. They’re obviously not our class, and could never even be mistaken for it.
Watch for Obama’s ACORN to take engage in voter fraud here while Obama’s Dem pals in office try and suppress military votes there.
Progwessives really can’t stand brown people.
Unless they know their place and make sure the ice bucket is full.
BTW, thor is a progwessive.
Sheesh. Thor and Nishi. Ruined another thread it seems.
Got thread cleaner?
The race is tied, Obama looks to cheating.
Hey Dar, check this response from Batchelor to Diamond in re. the kerfluffle the other day. I haven’t read the whole thing as yet, just a scan so far. Link found at JOM by bad.
Darleen,
I agree that that is troubling, but in and of itself, I don’t see the cheating.
If the next step is some declaration that these students must be counted as VA residents, then yeppers, that’s a huge problem.
Such a decision if it were made, should also be accompanied by a demand to reimburse all the out of state tuition for every one of them.
Despite ignorance, and a few misguided assumptions on the part of some supporters, Bush’s strategy in Iraq has always been public and has not changed materially since the runup to the invasion. Our guys have been less than forthcoming :-) on operational details of the “PVT Snuffy, William F, 447 99 9999 will be at coordinates Tango Bravo 239462 at 0802” sort, but the intent and the strategic direction has never been a secret, indeed has been publicized to the extent such publicity can be got past the gatekeepers.
The only people who have ever had a problem understanding are the people Orrin Judd calls the “Brights”, the people whose worldview is confined to their own asses, and the international Left, whose response to “…the United StaIMPERIALISM!!!!ELEVNTY11!!!” It’s a reflex, about as reasoned and rational as a flatworm turning left because great-grandpa got zapped for turning right, and they can’t be reasoned out of it, first because they didn’t get there by reasoning, second because their contextual space is so incredibly impoverished that they literally have no concepts that would allow addressing it. That fact alone has contributed enormously to the time it took and to the number of fatalities on both sides.
That concept is and has always been encapsulated in “as they stand up, we stand down.” The original notion was to remove Saddam and his henchmen, then stand back and let the Iraqis build the country they wanted; there have been missteps, some major, but all of them were based on trying to slap some short-term improvisation (“Coalition Provisional Authority”) in place pending the action of the Iraqis. The surge was never more than a slogan, The Surge®™ pat. app. for. The only thing really surprising is that a bunch of people raised on Cal Worthington and Ron Popeil appear to have accepted it as new, New, NEW AND IMPROVED IRAQ! Its actual content is neither more nor less than observing that the Iraqis were, in fact, beginning to stand up, to take charge of their own “lives, fortunes, and sacred Honor”, and shifting tactics from “holding action” to “watch their backs.”
An integral part of the strategy was always training. In the case of the Army, that’s gone fairly well from the beginning, but the police were another matter. Most Americans and Brits have absolutely no idea just how bizarre the notion of “civil police” looks in the context of most societies. In most places, “police” are either Army people detached from their primary service (and hating every minute of it) or The Dear Leader’s goons (charged with beating up on people dissing Dear Leader, and enjoying the duty.) The hard part wasn’t training the police — as can be observed in any small town in America, police can get by with very little formal training — it was establishing just WTF the concept meant. If the Iraqis have, in fact, internalized the concept, it is very good news.
Regards,
Ric
I wonder if the Obama campaign would be equally interesting in insuring the voting rights of servicemen and women serving overseas. Or – like my bil- who is away from “home” doing training?
RTO – how do soldiers vote if they are out in the field – in another state? Is is easy? As easy as it is for these students?
In addition, I was offline but did you guys hear about the stuff going on in Michigan? The accusations regarding the Republicans disenfranchising those going through bankruptcy? Made, of course, by the Obama camp and his ever-helpful media friends.
Yeah Carin, I read an article that was highly critical of the republicans.It was , of course, one sided and never mentioned the strategies the democrats go through to enroll suspect voters. Remember motor voter? The democrats way of getting illegal aliens to vote.
RTO
The pressure and aggressiveness of O!bots/Dems is not isolated. Recall how O! ran unopposed his first time out of the gate due to exactly these kinds of strongarm tactics.
O! is “aggressively” registering college students and has demanded that the local Registrar not be allowed to ask any questions by which they can determine a legitimate registration.
Now some Obamabot college students will be able to vote twice, once at home and once in VA which O wants to swing into his column.
Dems are ratching up, claiming fraud even when the person they finger as the Dirty Republican has been dead 3 years.
Sdferr
In Batchelor’s timeline, he actually talked with Diamond by phone for ten minutes…now Diamond is all over the place saying he “refused to be interviewed” and even in the thread doesn’t address that phone call.
Something weird is going on with Diamond.
Carin,
It can be easy if the Solider-voter is on top of the situation.
For the National Guard, it’s generally easier. Units tend to be from the same state so the same rules apply to all and the command ahs an easier time posting guidance about when deadlines for registration and absentee ballot applications are. It can be put on the bulletin boards and announced in the chow halls and communicated to the small FOBs and other places that aren’t near HQ. (I’ve been tasked as a Voting Assitance NCO.)
Units, though, that are composed of Soliders fromall over, inter state task forces from the Guard, most Reserve units and all Regular Army units, have a harder time. The rules are different in every state and while they can be posted, PVT Snuffy still has to go through a list to find his state’s deadlines and rules and if he’s “away from the flagpole” he may have every intention of being involved but still finding out too late unless the command has a particularly robust Voting Assistance program and let’s that one Soldier in the division form Rhode Island know what he needs up front and timely.
There is a federal ballot request. It’s a post card. It’s convenient. It’s easy to fill out. The S-1 shop doesn’t have to be burried under 54 different versions of forms to help Soldiers out. And no state is under any obligation to accept or recognize it. Most do, but there is no special accountability for them–if they get lost, they get lost. (Also if someone dumps them into the trash–that’s what happens. Oh well.) The federal government can’t regulate state elections or processes. They also still have to arrive on time.
I knew what the dates were when I deployed–I’m a Texas resident and didn’t expect my Oklahoma battaion deploying with an Oregon brigade, to know what my rules would be. I also took the form I’d need with me and mailed it as soon as it would be accepted, but I take voting more seriously than most.
We do what we can, but I can’t communicate the frustration that comes from being a Voting Assistance NCO that has a fellow Solider approach you about what he needs to do to vote when the election is the next day. And that happened a lot. “Sorry, Joe, you missed this one.”
Well, given that he is an avowed leftist and that he is going after a passel of fellow leftists (of whatever flavor) qualifies as prima facie weird for me.
Why he is so prickly about his plumber musings, I dunno. My guess? He’s a lawyer. They are weird like that.
BTW–Soliders are sometimes students in out of state schools and don’t know how to determine their residence….
If the Iraqis are asserting control over their security, that’s good news. If women are given a greater profile, that’s even better. However, one subtext has emerged during the course of this sweeping war on terror: the mission is not entirely about bringing about freedom and democracy to regions trapped in the dark ages. It is about imposing a civil society. Ric credits training, but the U.S. simply does not have the power, authority, or resources to transform people from an adversarial stance to a cooperative one. It’s even noted that women have been incorporated into the police for practical reasons. That’s great, but it’s an internal transformation.
Plus, I think Jeff’s blast at feminism falls flat.
“imposing a civil society”
What does that mean?
RTO: It’s hard to explain, and I’m pretty inarticulate. It just seems the U.S. is very good at invading places, rounding up combatants, separating factions, and patrolling dangerous areas. But we can’t make a bunch of people want to be a sovereign nation, and that has always been my beef with the putative Bush doctrine.
We can’t make chauvinist bureaucrats and police commanders with new and independent powers accept women into their ranks; we can only try to open a safe vacuum and get out of thier way. In other words, we cannot create nations, we can only hold back the forces against such a phenomenon.
To refute the conclusion; Do you think that this has ever been about limiting the choices the people involved may make?
As a refutation of the premise; Afghanistan has had as many or more problems with establishing Police as the primary security force and they have a strong national identity, above tribal and family affialiation, which isn’t especially the case in Iraq. The suggest to me that the difficulty has a different cause. I’m strongly inclined to agree with Ric’s assessment.
” Ric credits training, but the U.S. simply does not have the power, authority, or resources to transform people from an adversarial stance to a cooperative one.”
I guess Germany and Japan don’t count.
The never do to a leftist.
“They never do…”
I think what cynn’s trying to say is that there’s no possible way the US could have succeeded. It just not possible, and she’ll stomp her feet until the rest of us stop thinking it’s possible.
BTW–Soliders are sometimes students in out of state schools and don’t know how to determine their residence….
Here’s a question for you, RTO:
Is this something that a civilian group could help with? Say, by rounding up a list of military personnel from their area and making sure that they get a literature packet with all the necessary information and forms?
Yes it is, SPB. That would be a fine idea.
The best way to go about it would be for the voter advocates to work with the Family Readiness Groups of the deployed units. That would relieve the unit of any possible problems of releasing personal information. Spouses with properly formulated Powers of Attorney would be able to participate. The Soldier would have to request that…that would cover all bases. I’m sure JAG would have no problem formulating the correct language.
No, Rob, that’s not what I’m trying to say. You would just love to pin the tail on the donkey. What I believe I expressed is the mere fact that the United States cannot impose a civil society on another nation.
No, Rob. I haven’t seen your name until recently, so you may not yet be acquainted with Our Cynn.
Cynn is about half past chauvinist, quarter to bigot. She doesn’t include Iraqis in the class “people like me.” It therefore follows that are things that cynn can do, and which she might agree other Americans or even (what we call) “Anglospherians” or “Europeans” can do, which the Iraqis cannot because they are different. In that view, it is futile for anyone (not just Americans) to attempt to “impose” a “Western-style” Government in Iraq; the Iraqis simply can’t handle it. She will of course attempt to defend her attitude in the most Progressive and Multicultural terms, but if you’re a Southerner of about my age you will recognize the argument as one of the ones we used to exclude black people from participation. They ain’t but n–rs, they ain’t got the capability, and somebody’s gotta hep ’em.
The attitude is fairly common among Democrats who consider themselves enlightened on cultural issues. There exist two main variants. One of them asserts that no matter what we do the Iraqis will throw up another Saddam as soon as we aren’t there to hold their hands, and the other declares flatly that as soon as we’re out of the way the Shi’ia majority will join with the mullahs of Iran. I don’t recall which of them cynn accepts.
So she isn’t saying Americans can’t do it; she’s saying it’s impossible for anyone, including Americans. The difference is subtle but important.
Regards,
Ric
I say it’s the damn Donkey’s fault for always losing it’s tail in the first place.
You never hear of an Elephant needing such assistance.
The best way to go about it would be for the voter advocates to work with the Family Readiness Groups of the deployed units.
Awesome. I suspect that it’s too late to get a large scale organization going for this election cycle, but I think I’m to see what I can do locally. A couple of my students have deployed spouses, and they may know of others who would appreciate that kind of information.
This is the Fedral Voting Assistance Program contact info. They know all teh ins and outs of all teh rules and would be the most help to you.
Email*
vote@fvap.ncr.gov
Mail*
Federal Voting Assistance Program
Department of Defense
1155 Defense Pentagon
Washington, DC 20301-1155
* Do not send registration and absentee ballot request forms to this address.
Telephone
Toll-free: 1-800-438-VOTE (8683)
Commercial: 703-588-1584
DSN: 425-1584
Staff can be reached from 8:30am-5:00pm Eastern United States Time, Monday-Friday. Messages can be left 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
This is the Fedral Voting Assistance Program contact info. They know all teh ins and outs of all teh rules and would be the most help to you.
Thanks!
Family Readiness Groups sounds like community organizing. Is my tax money on the line?
The Virtual Family Readiness Group (vFRG) web system provides all of the functionality of a traditional FRG in an ad-hoc and on-line setting to meet the needs of geographically dispersed units and families across all components of the Army.
http://www.armyfrg.org/skins/frg/home.aspx
Cynn,
There is a huge amount of academic literature on colonialism that completely refutes your suggestion that civil society cannot be imposed. I suggest you begin with Benedict Anderson, Imagined Societies.
Ric prick, you forgot one little detail: the Iraqis are not in fact part of our country. The blacks you refer to were and are. Climb as high as you can in your little canoe.
Not much of a distinction, there, cynn.
I feel… crushed. I’ve been ’round here for years. Commenting even.
cynn:
Who’s imposing it? Comprendes vous the difference between “impose” and “give space and time for the locals to develop it on their own”? Which was the plan in Iraq?
What distincion, RTO?
That has nothing to do with it, cynn — as you know perfectly well, else that wouldn’t have stung you into illustrating my point in an attempt to refute it.
I am a Southerner of a certain age. I remember. I remember all the techniques and strategems we used, many of which never get mentioned any more. The violent stuff has caught the imagination and gets cited all the time, but it was the psychological ploys and the denial of “personhood” that did the most damage. My grandmother once told me, “You have to be nice to the Negroes, because they can’t do for themselves the way white people can.” She was a Progressive bigot (and a lifelong Democrat whose opinion of Republicans would look very mainstream today.)
Iraqis are people. They are just as capable of learning and modifying their behavior (or not) as you and I are. Any declaration that they can’t handle it when “it” is something we do and take for granted is an expression of bigotry, and you need to recognize that.
Regards,
Ric
Civil society, an imposition?
I remember one time I was forced to be happy. How rude!
“What I believe I expressed is the mere fact that the United States cannot impose a civil society on another nation.”
Clinton’s Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo adventure?
Hey, I recognize that native tongue; you’re speaking southern Republican.
Sorry, Rob. I tend to be oblivious, and often have to refer all the way back to find out which person put up a comment I’m responding to. My deficiency, not yours.
Regards,
Ric
Rob Crawford: Yes, I understand the difference. But weren’t we sold this from the “freedom and democracy” bin?
“This war is God’s will.” Sister Sarah Palin
Sorry, thor, that’s wrong. I’d met Greeks, Pakistanis, Cubans, and Saudis before I was ten, but I never saw a real live Republican ’til I graduated from high school. My grandmother wouldn’t have approved of the foul language, but in terms of what she had to say she’d have fitted right in at Kos.
Regards,
Ric
In part. Are you saying the Iraqis are neither free nor democratic?
I’ll admit their ordering of their society doesn’t appeal to me, but it appears to be to their liking. And they actually get to chose their political leaders now, instead of facing torture and death if they expressed dissatisfaction.
Ric, your yoga positions are admirable, but worthless. It is you who are trying to tie American history with present day Iraq; all I will say is that you are irrelevant, and Iraq will proceed or not without you. Sorry.
Cynn, The distinction between one group being part of our country and the other not. Why does it make a difference?
Charm school, who knew all we had to do invade and teach ’em edicts and mores.
Sorry Ric, snake-mean Evangelicals and Negro-hatin’ hicks are now neo-Republicans. David Duke ran in the _________ primary to be the _________ candidate for governor of Louisiana.
Cynn, why shouldn’t we try, if we believe it’s in our national interest. If you don’t think it’s in our interest, say so, and why you think that. If you don’t think it’s doable, tell us why you believe that. Just asserting it’s impossible over and over isn’t very convincing.
One of these may come in useful, cynn.
Regards,
Ric
In the Army we periodically have ‘mandatory fun’.
Well, off the top of my head, RTO, those with an actual stake in this country get to contemplate losing everything. Those in other countries contemplate losing everything, but my tax money isn’t on the hook for it.
#106 And was repudiated, disavowed , outcast, shunned, and told to F off by the LA Republicans. Just as, I hope Rev. Phelps, the “God hates fags” guy was when he ran for the Democratic Lt. Governor’s nomination in Kansas. Where he hosted a fundraiser for Al Gore, and was a delegate for him.
That seems a non-sequiter. I can see that as a justification for not starting the attempt (don’t agree but I can understand it). I don’t see it as a reason why “imposing civil society” won’t work or can’t be done.
Ric, seriously, I did the research and found the perfect place. We need to have an Aruba get together; a conference as it were. I had everything lined up this summer but finances blew up. Everyone, get your passports in order — Aruba in ’09!
my tax money isn’t on the hook for it.
An odd concern for an Obama supporter.
How do you feel about being on the hook for $700 billion, thanks to your Lord and Savior’s cronies?
Yeah, thor. I also remember the bumper stickers: Vote for the Crook. It’s Important. Citing Louisiana politics as an exemplar says more about you than it does about the subject you’re discussing.
Regards,
Ric
“This war is God’s will.†Sister Sarah Palin
“I am a lying shitstain with daddy issues.” thor.
RTO: I must be approaching the question obliquely. So how do we as an invading nation impose civil society on another nation? And here I am looking at Afghanistan and Pakistan.
You act like LSU isn’t playing Auburn on ESPN right now.
Suck on God’s will.
You wanna see God’s will, hammer-and-sickle-boi? It’s right here.
Oops, suckle here.
Spies: I don’t like being a $700 bill realtor. But then again, I didn’t like going to a pretend war against an enemy made of gas. And don’t try to sneak out the back door.
I didn’t like going to a pretend war against an enemy made of gas
A what?
Funny, could’ve sworn it was a real live war. Could also have sworn that the Taliban and Saddam weren’t “made of gas”, whatever the fuck that might mean in your fevered mind.
The money wasted on this war combined with the corrupt Republican bank bail out and Sister Sarah might be the end of the Republican party.
Good riddance, liars, thieves and God-bags.
We don’t. Good thing that was never intended, or even contemplated, eh?
What we can do is eliminate the grossly uncivil, supply a raft of examples and proposals with alternatives, make it clear that reversion to “grossly uncivil” means we can revert to “eliminate”, then stand back and try to keep the raff off while they decide what to keep, what to throw away, and what to modify to fit local conditions better.
Which is what we did in Germany and Japan, and what we’re doing in Iraq even as we speak.
Regards,
Ric
The money wasted on this war combined with the corrupt Republican bank bail out and Sister Sarah might be the end of the Republican party.
And you might grow a brain, a conscience, and come to the realization that your daddy isn’t running your life any more.
However, that’s not the way to bet, is it?
So how do we as an invading nation impose civil society on another nation?
We teach them to act like white people, cynn.
Spies: Be honest. How often have you heard the phrase “War with Iraq?”
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22war+with+iraq%22
Results 1 – 10 of about 1,390,000 for “war with iraq”.
Not nearly as common as “Iraq War” (20,300,000) or “War on Terror” (12,900,000).
Your point?
Then I guess I’ve misunderstood you meanig of “imposing a civil society.” Would you define that again, please?
cynn, asking Spies to be honest is like a homeless person for food.
…asking a homeless person for food.
Freudian slip, thor. You’ve been blowing and/or cannibalizing hobos again, haven’t you?
“Comment by thor on 9/20 @ 9:11 pm #
The money wasted on this
warACORN communist idea combined with the corruptRepublicanDemocrat caused bank bail out andSister SarahObama might be the end of theRepublicanDemocrat party.Spies, I was referring to your #123. Surely a bright boy like you can’t believe we’re at war with Iraq.
My #123 says that it’s a real war, not a “pretend” one (which it it is), and that our enemies aren’t “made out of gas” (which they aren’t).
Again, your point?
Surely a bright boy like you can’t believe we’re at war with Iraq.
We’re not at war with Iraq any more, no, but that’s not what you said, is it?
You said we were in a “pretend war”. It’s quite real.
RTO: I think you’re being intentionally obtuse. What I am saying is that we can’t take a hostile co-existence and magically produce a civil society.
G’nite cynn.
Spies: My apologies; you’re the one made out of gas. So get your war on.
#138 You still haven’t said why we can’t.
‘Nite thor. Try and be more civil, please? I get thumped constantly, but I try not to resort to potty talk, unless warranted.
I’ll try.
Why can’t we enforce a civil society? Well, I am stunned and amazed that we can’t just insist that all non-American darkies just get along!
Your attempts at cleverness are obscuring your meaning. Are you saying that it’s too hard to do, so we shouldn’t try? Or for reasons you don’t want to share, you know it’s impossible? Or it’s not in this country’s interest to try to aid the Iraqis in forming a reasonably democratic, friendly country?
What I am saying is that we can’t take a hostile co-existence and magically produce a civil society.
Well, no shit. There is no magic.
There is hard work, positive examples, and tamping down on chaos. There are other methods, too, that are somewhat less pretty but have worked in the past in other places.
History is an amazing thing. You should learn some.
And a preview function is an amazing thing. I wish to hell this blog had one.
Guess you needed to know beforehand. Sucks to be proactive.
It’s not being obtuse. You’re using what might be considered a term of art in some circles, what’s more you think it’s being imposed.
So I wnat to be clear. Were this a formal debate, I’d take the opportunity you left in not defining it, to define it to suit my argument, but it’s not a formal debate and I’m feeling charitable tonight, so I want to know what “civil society” means to you. As well as how you think we either could be imposing it or why you think we think it can or should be imposed.
All of which was teh points I was making in offering arguements on both the premise and conclusion.
Being obtuse would require that I already know what you mean and am insisting that I don’t. And offing counter arguments would be counter productive to that line of strategery.
Contrary to the conventional wisdom, the invasion of Iraq was not so proactive or pre-emptive as is made out. Charlie Gibson proved that he doesn’t get it either and depite his poor behavior he is a pretty smart guy so that’s not a dig.
One of the major problems in persuing a counter insurgency strategy is that the bad guys don’t have to follow establishd rules and can generally be counted on not to. One of the big ones is the respect of international borders. When tehy run across a border, the forces persuing them, generally, are required to stop before upon reaching the imaginary line. The US got into some trouble in the with regard to Cambodia and Laos a while back and it was decided not to make that mistake again. (Though SEN Obama has promised to repoeat that bit of history vis a vis Pakistan.)
We made a number of moves, globally, to prevent the scattering of the cockroaches when the lights were turned on in Afghanistan: established presences in the Horn of Africa, Indonesia, Malasia, Georgia, Colombia, Nicaragua, the Philippines…all the palces we knew that al Qaeda would run to when they found A’stan not so hospitable an environment anymore. One place we could not make such na arrangement though was Iraq. And that’s where they went.
And started doing in ever greater numbers. Even Iran was marginally cooperative in preventing the Qaedists from staying for long, but they did allow transit. You’re seeing a reversal of this now. That’s the largest single reason for the deterioration (which is still not nearly as bad as is portrayed in the media) in Afghanistan today. The surviviors of Iraq have fled there and set up new operations–also applying what they’ve learned in their previous travails.
So, you know, it’s just not right to accuse us reactionaries of being proactive.
Back to the actual topic of the post (after a quick reminder to PLEASE stop engaging the phone poles)…
I did a lot more work with the police in Afghanistan – but I did get involved with the Iraqi National Police down Basra way. Besides lots of training and education of the National Police (on the Italian Caribinari model) we had to make sure that they understood their role and importance in “civil society”. The additional part was letting the populace know that these police ARE different – two ways to do it – PSA, posters, talks with community leaders, both elected and tribal PLUS putting the NPs on the street and people seeing the difference. People would express amazement that police would stop them at a check point and be polite, not steal or ask for a bribe, do their search quickly and professionally and let them go right away!
So now people see police that are quite different than they remember from Saddam’s day. The longer task is getting the local cops up to speed. When I got to the 14th Division, one of the Naqeeb asked me – do you know how the Basra Police are like dinosuars? I replied I did not. He answered “both no longer exist”. Pretty good joke – but true. We have a whole BN of MPs down there helping at the Police College now. When the local cops start appearing back on the streets, the locals have certain expectations of them, having dealt with the NP. I think things are moving in the right direction, and it is the IRAQIS that are doing it – Iraqi civilians seeing Iraqi police behaving like pros, and now expecting that to be the norm. If not, they can press their elected officials AND their tribal leaders about it.
Now, the ANP and the district or provincial Afghan cops… I ain’t there, so I ain’t current. Three and four years ago, there were just not enough Afghan National Police, and they had a crappy reputation. The Germans had a wonderful training program, but it would have been 2236 when they finally trained a sufficient force.
sry guys, the strategy that worked, both in Anbar and apparently in Bagdhad(according to the Major) was armed social work and trusted networks. Gen Petraeus and Dr. Kilcullen are actually Brights, or at least elites.
that strategy was not instantiated in Iraq until 2006.
GW is, unfortunately, a Dim.
He believes in the Big White Bwana Counter-Insurgency Strategy, the Manifest Destiny of Judeoxian Democracy.
that is why we were throwin blood and treasure down a rathole until Petraeus got control.
The Bush Doctrine, as articulated by Dr. K and others at the AEI conservative “think”(lol) tank, is to remove the substrate that nourishes terrorism and then nuture tender little seedlings of judeoxian democracy, (rapturously recieved by the indigenous poplulation), which would presumeably spread like weeds into neighboring states.
Unfortunatley, all that really happens is that the neighbors get out the weedkiller.
hahaha! and the punch line….oh this is so hilarious….is that the Iraqis have shari’a incorporated into their constitution!!!!
its not Judeoxian Democracy AT ALL!!
lol!LOLOL!!!lol!
You are straying further and further from reality on this. Twas not armed social work, no matter how many times you repeat that phrase. And you may have missed the fact that it was the CinC who gave the “go” for the change in strategery, in the teeth of opposition from the dead weight sitting in some of the CJCS chairs.
You also missed the fact that it wasn’t just Baghdad and Anbar, it was Basrah and Maysaan, and Diyala and Ninaweh, plus Babil, Dhi Qar, etc., etc….
You couldn’t be more wrong trying to claim that the idea was a “Judeo-Christian” democracy to be established. Show us one time the President ever said this or wrote this. I’d be quite interested to see that transcript or document.
hahaha, okfine.
happy with shari’ia-democracy that thousands of American soldiers have died for?
good enuff for me ;)
and….the commander explicitly said “armed social work”.
ill find the link.
i can do that, cant i sarahW Carin?
it was at about the time the Iraqi Rape squad pulled a train on that 14 yearold girl and burned up her family.
Menchaca Tucker…..about that time.
So much for your alleged Islamic faith, eh? I guess you have no belief that your co-religionists can run a representative government of their own choosing. How can you be so bigoted against thoae that profess your own faith?
You keep trying to say the “Surge” was “armed social work”. CA Ops are more like that. I have tried, obviously without effect, to explain to you what the change in both strategy and tactics were. But you have your label ready, and you have armored your mind against anything changing that rigid stance. How very un-Sufi.
we’ve all tried at some point or other. It’s a TTP, MJ, you’ve got better things to do with your time.
maggie, I know you are right, but I try to help when I see such breathtaking mischaracterization of that which I have lived this past year.
With this revelatory bit of bigotry, I am ready to award TTP status to Kate and ignore from now on. Imagine a Sufi so inflexible, so bigoted and so sneering. I am beginning to suspect that bit of personal information to be a lie…
Besides, I am stuck in the office yesterday and today…I can actually keep up with a thread or two.
I’m so glad you’re sitting there, stuck in your office, with a belly full of Starbucks and Whoppers no doubt. I hate to think of that day you’re given a no-more-war pink slip and forced into the domestic labor pool.
I will break radio silence, once, to address the New Typing Telephone Pole, heir to alphie. Sorry to disappoint you, but I have pretty darn good civilian employment – as you obviously missed, being rather unobservant, I am a National Guardsman. I work for the Swiss Insurance Behemoth that is wise in its investment strategy. Before that I was a private sector attorney representing several manufacturers against the likes of Peter Angelos and Mark Lanier. Before that I was an Assistant State’s Attorney that prosecuted child molesters and domestic violence – hence my utter distaste for your Downs Syndromes snark – you have part of the mindset of several people I sent to the joint for 60+ years.
I have spent most of my tour in MND-SE, where I was the sole American in the 14th DIV MiTT during the Battle of Basrah. I have also been an LMAT OIC for a team in MND-SE. My last three months of the tour, I am up at MNSTC-I HQ, specifically working for the Coalition Army Advisory Training Team. When I wrap it up in 45 or fewer days, I will go home and go back to my office in suburbia.
So, care to tell us what you have done, and will do in future, that allows such ill-informed and psuedo-lofty judgements to be hurled down on us lesser beings?
Oh, and no BK or Starbucks – sorry to disappoint your ignorant and rather feeble attempt at…whatever it was supposed to be.
Back to ignoring the TTP.
Fuck you, welfare lout, and your dumbassed response.
P.S. Oh, yeah, I LOVE war too!!11!1! I just can’t wait to be away from my wife and children, my family and friends – to go to places with rather unpleasant climates and have 7th Century minded savages shoot Russian, Iranian and North Korean rockets and mortars at me. Get some!!1!1!
TTP.
Save your pussy-ass insults for whatever enemy your ordered to shoot at.
thor needs (another) time out.
GO ARMY!
Some people might get upset when they are informed that considering the weakest and most vulnerable (children, especially a disabled child) as mere objects for gratification (for cheap snarko-political gratification in this case) and not a person (and a particularly innocent one at that) means they share a sociopathic trait with some of the more horrific felons around…
No, Major, that isn’t it.
thor is a bully, of the particularly despicable sort that declares “I can smash it, so it isn’t really yours.” He is clever enough to rephrase the Talking Points™ a bit. There are several of us who can’t help thinking that allowing Herr Goebbels to repeat himself yet another time without challenge is a minor defeat. The result is that any thread he injects himself into becomes All About Thor, which gives him the same gratification Moe gets when he extorts the lunch money.
Regards,
Ric
Ric,
Could be that too.
But it seems that the TTPs get alot more upset when ignored. Note the blazing wrath toward others that call for ignoring of them. Either way, as illustrated above, not much to be gained from such exchanges. Were I to make a way off base assumption ’bout someone, and have it pointed out I was wrong (ie. I remember once on Registan I mixed up Khirgizstan and Khazakstan and made a very long, very incorrect argument/comment) I would say “Whoops/Mea Culpa” and let it be.
thor has no qualms about doubling down because he’s playing with imaginary money, coward that he is.
The major shoots. He scores!-Swish-Nuthin but net. Game over.
Are we ever in danger of nishi being right?
The Major is one of the more even-keeled commenters here. To tick him off you really have to work.
Looks like tTP just earned itself the Brown Starfish with Dingleberries.
I mean, really now – some guy typing insults is supposed to bother me all that much? I have had at least 4 different groups of fanatics (HiG, Talib, JAM and AQ) try very hard to kill me. They have, at certain times (particularly the first time I had mortar fire walked toward made me) quite upset, very anxious even. A blog commenter throwing pixellated feces, not so much. But as ric locke mentioned, once in a while it is futile to resist pointing out certain stunningly foolish statements.
Until such time as any of the TTPs start rocketing and mortaring the FOB I am on, or setting up IEDs where I am convoying, I’ll manage to get by without sweating it very much.
I’m sure you will, sir.
thor gets especially uptight when you call him a tourist and a fraud … which he is.
Don’t be trying to hide behind handicapped children, you intellectually weak-kneed name-calling pussy. It’s not becoming, soldier, of a soldier.
Whether or not you call nishi a “cunt” and a “slut” is immaterial. It’s that you run with those who do, Mr. “Talking Telephone Pole,” which is some pretty lame pussy-talk, don’t’cha think soldier?
Sad, sad, lonely little boy.
That was gratuitous I think, thor. Major John isn’t speaking as a soldier right there just someone that doesn’t think that snickering at disabled kids is a really good sign. It’s sort of just tacky, really. It’s really the sort of thing best done anonymously if someone feels like they need to do that cause it just doesn’t reflect well I don’t think.
#174 Greg Gutfeld is right. On the internet, cowards become cowboys.
He’s looking for a good round of condemning, because it reinforces his rebel bonifides. Speak truth to power, god of thunder.
The projection with this one is amazing. The cowardice, not so much.
Ignore it, Major John. It really can’t help itself. All that futility and rage…hey, at least it has an outlet here; I hate to think what it could do to, say, a helpless child if it did not.
from hammer boi to Major John
“I’m so glad you’re sitting there, stuck in your office, with a belly full of Starbucks and Whoppers no doubt. I hate to think of that day you’re given a no-more-war pink slip and forced into the domestic labor pool.”
From Major john to Hammer boi (excerpted)
“I am a National Guardsman. I work for the Swiss Insurance Behemoth that is wise in its investment strategy. Before that I was a private sector attorney representing several manufacturers against the likes of Peter Angelos and Mark Lanier. Before that I was an Assistant State’s Attorney that prosecuted child molesters and domestic violence – hence my utter distaste for your Downs Syndromes snark – you have part of the mindset of several people I sent to the joint for 60+ years”
“So, care to tell us what you have done, and will do in future, that allows such ill-informed and psuedo-lofty judgements to be hurled down on us lesser beings?”
Once again, from the Hammer boi
“Fuck you, welfare lout, and your dumbassed response.”
Fuck this. I fully understand why people are leaving.
Major John? You’re a better man than me sir.
When it gets too much for ya, Maj. John, simply give up all your benefits, pay back your bonuses and some of that money you got for sitting around doing nothing in the Reserve and request a dishonorable discharge.
Crazy as it sounds, I think we can replace you, John. Sitting around playing on the computer, bashing Americans on the internet while sipping lattes, receiving unheard of pay versus my dad and the soldiers in that not too bygone era, not to mention the world class healthcare afforded you if you’re injured, unlike in the good old days.
Go ahead, Maj. Nishfong. If you don’t want to fight for Nishi no more and prefer being an on-line howler we have plenty of other volunteers waiting in-line to sit at your desk.
When I grow up I want to be Major John.
I’m grateful, Maj. John, you set things right where you can.
No one wants to grow up to be thor.
Not even thor.
Except I looked law school in the face once already and I blinked. That just didn’t look like any fun at all. Not the work so much, the people.
… the same gratification Moe gets when he extorts the lunch money.
It is kind of depressing when thor gets as blind howling batshit crazy incoherent as he is in this thread. I can only just back away with the rest of you and try not to get too much on me, there are some levels of freakishness that unnerve even me.
thor may well be saying some of the dumbest things ever said on the Internet. Usenet inclusive.
Pay close attention, folks. History is in the making.
Damn Thor!!. Still not getting enough from your Russian child bride? Just a suggestion, but it’d probably be better if you stop wanking to the abuse you get here, and start being more respectful to your WAY betters (Not like me, I mean Major John) while wanking to your hearts delight until she turns of legal age
“We can replace you…” That’s great. Who’s this We? Does he mean himself? As a veteran of an older generation than Thor, I don’t remember asking him to speak for me.
Thor? I’ve never said anything like this, nor will I ever forgive myself for saying it, but you know what asshole? Give me an address…I’ll pay for your plane ticket…ME AND YOU…back alley…You won’t survive it jackass, and I fully expect a response SOON…This is not a joke. You’ve defamed not only a great poster here, but my entire family,who before me has served in every war here in the colonies from the late 1600’s to the present. Bring it on asshole.
Sorry folks, it takes a lot to bring me to that sad conclusion, but since nobody else has gone there?
Think “Animal House”…I’m just the guy to do it!!!
No need to go there, Blitz. You wouldn’t want any of that on your shoe. It’s just another worthless, narcissistic tool.
I know Diana,but it’s not meaningless. I’m dead serious. The only way to out bully a bully is to call his ass out on his cowardice.
I will pay for his ticket. I will kick his ass in an alley. My boots can always be replaced…
thor gets his rocks off by typing. He always leaves halfway throught he party and ends up mewling and puking in the bushes.
Again Diana, I know. but I also know that bullies need to be bullied.
THOR…You child loving pussy? My offer stands. Me, you, back alley. Answer me azzwipe!! Ask Jeff for my Email, and I will buy you a ticket to Worcester. From there, I’ll meet you in Fitchburg.And may the GOD you don’t believe in have mercy on my boots….
Diana? I guess this is my way of getting back at the bullies. I was small back then, got bigger.
It’s Major John’s fault, y’all, for being so much more of a man than what’s-its-problem that the latter must act out to that extent. Clearly if Major John didn’t stand in such marked contrast to the accomplishments of the troll, said troll wouldn’t be at such pains to conceal from himself his own lack of value to the human race.
Shame on you, Major John. Have you no decency?
Hey McGehee!!
You have it exactly right. It’s ALL Major Johns fault. And Vercs…and Mikeys and RTO’s and many others whom I can’t remember at this time.
I guess that freedom loving people who are willing to back up their beliefs with their actions just aren’t included in the Proggs agenda. To quote Hammer boy?
““Fuck you, welfare lout, and your dumbassed response.â€Â
That is in response to one of our military commenters.
DAMN. Sorry all, but THAT POST got to me.
When I grow up? I wanna be Happyfeet. Nothing ever seems to bother him to the point he wants to put a mortar in someones nether regions…
Ignore the uncultured poster called “thor”. It enjoys abuse and will use all those devastating taunts that it picked up in grade school to provoke you into providing it.
Silent pity is the best way to make it go away.
We’ll agree to disagree Mark. I’m taking this sob on. I tried to do it in the Pub, but so many posts, so few hours in my day. I’ll do it here, but in MY way. I’m not like you folks. I understand the words, but can’t use them in conversation. Reason for that is I was bullied in grade and High school. Never went to college, but hell, we’re doing ok!!Hammer boy is a project that I’ll get to, in my time, when I’m not actually like working?
Poor Johnnie, he forgot what country he was fightin’ for. That’s OK Johnnie, I’ll remind you anytime you need reminding. Won’t even require the U.S. Government to pay me to be your reminder!
And Bwitzey, there’s some bushes right out in front of my building. That’s where I’m going to drag you when I’m done with you. I plan on keeping one of your boots as a trophy, the other I’ll use to anchor my trot line to the bottom of the intercoastal. Do you like fried catfish?
RTO, it’s late in the game, but you just made me laugh hard enough that I skipped a cigarette. Now to bed, and blessings on us both!
Oh, I guess I missed some shtizzle.
Or shizzle, as it were.
Worcester? Hell, I’ll show up and bring the beer. Except that it will never happen because thor is just a loudmouth pussy and he’ll never put his ass or his money where his mouth is. His mouth writes checks his ass can’t cash, but that’s OK because the bank they’re drawn on doesn’t exist. thor is just nasty vapor, like a broccoli fart.
thor, don’t make me sit up with my worry beads.
Blitz, I was a soldier for 12 years. Thor ain’t shit and not worth getting riled up about. He’s a blog cockroach and loves the job. He considers it a win if you engage him; I don’t talk to cockroaches and I don’t talk to Thor.
I recommend that you don’t talk to the cockroach; you’re a free man and can do what you wish, of course.
McGehee – why was I suddenly thinking of the opening of “Slapshot” when the goalie is being interviewed on the local TV show and explains the various penalties – he ends with “and then you go to the penalty box and feel shame”…?
I guess all the time I have spent out at the pointy end of the spear (Basra, Dhi Qar) this tour has left me this last 2 months in Baghdad, trying to impart that which I have experienced and learned. If that is too hard for some to grasp, it doesn’t bug me any.
Sorry, McGehee, but I knew if I didn’t keep my knee in your chest you’d refuse to drink the tequila..
Oh, and I’m doubly sorry about the nose-pukin’. I know how bad that hurts.
Maybe next time you’ll offer me tequila with a worm in it instead of a… what the hell was that thing, anyway?
Or should I ask, whose?