In my initial take on Barack Obama’s speech in Berlin, I wrote:
Substantively, I welcomed his call for more support from Germany to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan. However, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Wednesday she would make clear to Obama that there were limits to Germany’s military engagement in Afghanistan. Merkel may find Obama well-equipped physically, but this seems to be another case in which a government will not be dramatically altering its foreign policy just from a look at Obama’s magic face.
John Bolton and Andrew Ferguson parse through the speech, raising related points. Bolton, for example, writes of Obama’s account of the defeat of Nazism, the Berlin airlift and the collapse of communism:
Perhaps Obama needs a remedial course in Cold War history, but the Berlin Wall most certainly did not come down because “the world stood as one.” The wall fell because of a decades-long, existential struggle against one of the greatest totalitarian ideologies mankind has ever faced. It was a struggle in which strong and determined U.S. leadership was constantly questioned, both in Europe and by substantial segments of the senator’s own Democratic Party. In Germany in the later years of the Cold War, Ostpolitik — “eastern politics,” a policy of rapprochement rather than resistance — continuously risked a split in the Western alliance and might have allowed communism to survive. The U.S. president who made the final successful assault on communism, Ronald Reagan, was derided by many in Europe as not very bright, too unilateralist and too provocative.
Ferguson makes a similar point:
The thing about wars, even cold ones, is that the world doesn’t stand as one; that’s why there’s a war. And in the Cold War the Soviet side was as united as the West; more so, probably. Left out of Obama’s history was any mention of the ferocious demonstrations against the United States in the streets of Paris and West Berlin during the 1960s and 1980s, when American presidents were routinely depicted as priapic cowboys and psychopaths. Probably a fair number of the older members of Obama’s audience had been hoisting those banners themselves 25 years ago.
Bolton also notes that, in calling for the walls between races and tribes, natives and immigrants, Christian and Muslim and Jew to be torn down, Obama seems oblivious to the notion that these “walls” exist “not simply because of a lack of understanding about who is on the other side but because there are true differences in values and interests that lead to human conflict. ”
To these observations add Jim Geraghty’s catch on Obama’s comments regarding our current alliances in his interview with Brian Williams:
“Americans have a tendency to characterize Europeans as effete or unwilling to shoulder the necessary burdens for freedom when you’ve got a lot of coalition forces in Afghanistan who have taken serious losses,†Obama said.
Every soldier’s death is tragic, but if the number of European soldiers KIA in Afghanistan can truly be characterized as “serious losses,†then no European country will ever really be willing to do peacekeeping work in any dangerous part of the world. (And oddly, safe parts of the world don’t need peacekeepers.)
Geraghty then runs the numbers which, while sad, are not “serious losses” by any reasonable interpretation of the words.
Barack Obama chose to place himself on the world stage. He chose to give his account of the last 100 years or so of our history. He offered his own view of our current alliances and what he expects from them. Reviewing his oratory and comments, Obama appears to have lived down to the saddest stereotype of the “kumbaya” school of progressive “thought.” He consistently demonstrates a complete lack of understanding that our enemies attack us — and our allies often fail to offer full cooperation — due to very real differences in values and interests that will not go away if he is elected president.
Throughout the media (here, here, here, here, here, here and here, for example) it is being reported and opined that Obama made no serious gaffes on his World Tour. But his Berlin speech and interviews reveal him to be a total naif in foreign affairs at the most basic level. That ought to qualify as a Kinsleyan gaffe.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 5:36 pm #
Likewise, the current president has spent the last eight years telling everyone who will listen that all peoples are equipped for Western-style democracy.
“Where did you learn to do this?”
“From you, Dad! I learned it from watching you!”
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 5:38 pm #
you really just like to see yourself type don’t you, Barrett?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 5:41 pm #
… she typed.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 5:46 pm #
so you have something on topic to say?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 5:50 pm #
I’m sorry, I thought the topic was realism in U.S. foreign policy. Karl was saying that Obama just doesn’t seem to get it because he claimed that “the world stood as one” during the Cold War, so I thought I’d point out that the current president tends to say a lot of demonstrably untrue things about the world and liberty when in the course of giving what is intended to be an inspiring, thematic speech.
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 5:52 pm #
Where and when did Bush say “that all peoples are equipped for Western-style democracy”?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 5:53 pm #
except that’s all you ever say is, “BUT BUSH!!!” fine, we get it. you don’t like the current guy. and you don’t show anywhere all countries aren’t capable of Western-style democracy. you just know it. so it’s not really so unrealistic.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 5:54 pm #
also, I’m not sure how an ideal can be “not true”. Historical facts on the other hand.
Comment by Patrick on 7/26 @ 6:02 pm #
Karl,
I disagree with you. Obama wasn’t giving a world affairs lecture, he was giving a political speech. He understands the mood of people and understands what they want to hear, and he gives it to them. He already knows the Europeans do diddly squat. That’s why he politely chastised them for not doing enough in his speech. In Obama speak it might as well have been a cussing out of Europe for being Europe.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:03 pm #
“except that’s all you ever say is, “BUT BUSH!!!†fine, we get it. you don’t like the current guy. and you don’t show anywhere all countries aren’t capable of Western-style democracy. you just know it. so it’s not really so unrealistic.”
Okay, we don’t have to talk about Bush. Regarding all countries not being capable of democracy at this time – are you asserting that they are, indeed, all capable of democracy, much less the Western-style sort? Just for fun, if you had to pick any nation which would be the least capable of operating under a democracy at this point, which nation would you pick?
“also, I’m not sure how an ideal can be “not trueâ€Â. Historical facts on the other hand.”
Requesting permission to quote Bush…
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 6:04 pm #
“…Democracy takes different forms in different cultures, but successful free societies are built on common foundations of rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, a free economy, and freedom of worship. …”
George W. Bush
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:06 pm #
quote away! it would be a positive change.
Comment by Darleen on 7/26 @ 6:06 pm #
peoples are equipped for Western-style democracy.
Funny, but that’s not what I heard … I heard that all people yearn for liberty.
and I’ve had to listen to 8 years (or more if we include the Reagan years) of Leftists sniffing that those brown people over there or those non-Left-enlightened people over there are not capable of knowing what they want and “who are we to judge” their “choice” in being ruled by brutal dictators, thugs, malcontents, authoritarians, etc, as long as those dictators, thugs, et al, were anti-America or anti-Israel?
Comment by Karl on 7/26 @ 6:09 pm #
BB is sufficiently in thrall to his own BDS that he has not come to grips with the fact that GWB will be out of office next year. BO, otoh, might be in the WH next year, so his lack of realism is a little more salient.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 6:12 pm #
But his Berlin speech and interviews reveal him to be a total naif in foreign affairs at the most basic level.
No, it doesn’t. For real. This speech, this event really, it is meant to shine like a fuzzy bunny retrospectively, for him to point at and say, this is what my election ratified. America has rejected a foreign policy circumscribed by its narrow self-interest. We, for real, we are the world. We are the motherfucking children. And the United Nations makes a brighter day, so let’s start giving. It’s a choice we’re making I think is what Baracky’s speech means.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 6:13 pm #
“…The United States has no right, no desire, and no intention to impose our form of government on anyone else. That is one of the main differences between us and our enemies. They seek to impose and expand an empire of oppression, in which a tiny group of brutal, self-appointed rulers control every aspect of every life. Our aim is to build and preserve a community of free and independent nations, with governments that answer to their citizens, and reflect their own cultures. And because democracies respect their own people and their neighbors, the advance of freedom will lead to peace. …”
George W. Bush, SoU 2005
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:14 pm #
“I heard that all people yearn for liberty.”
Well, they don’t. A good portion of the readership of this blog is convinced that this country’s largest political party is preparing the nation for socialism, or that it proceeds ideologically from fascism. So, either you don’t really think that or you don’t really think that all people yearn for liberty, but will allow Bush to say such things even though you know them to be true while at the same time holding Obama to some rhetorical standard which doesn’t even allow for such things as claiming that “the world” stood as one against the Soviets.
I tell you three times I tell you three times I tell you three times – the rhetorical standard to which Obama is being held could not be met by any American president since Calvin Coolidge. It could not have been met by the Founders, at least with regards to their public utterances. That is the main argument that I would make to all of you.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:16 pm #
“BO, otoh, might be in the WH next year, so his lack of realism is a little more salient.”
I believe that the philosophical maturity of the sitting president is of some great salience as well and worth mentioning in a discussion that hinges on the nature of presidents.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:16 pm #
can we hold him to GWB’s standard at least?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:16 pm #
and are you saying he didn’t hear that?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:17 pm #
“but will allow Bush to say such things even though you know them to be true…”
… should have read, “known them to *not* be true.” I wasn’t actually accusing Bush of being too correct and you guys of being too willing to accept his correct views, as you might imagine.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 6:19 pm #
“…Democracies in the Middle East will not look like our own, because they will reflect the traditions of their own citizens. Yet liberty is the future of every nation in the Middle East, because liberty is the right and hope of all humanity. …”
George W. Bush, SoU 2006
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 6:20 pm #
The people what don’t want to be free, they will not flourish. They will be subsumed by the enterprising and the bold. This is only the most duh lesson of history. It’s important I think to stay on the right side of the history thing. Of consequence.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:22 pm #
um, that doesn’t mean those individuals don’t yearn for liberty. it’s just their liberty entails oppressing others.
Comment by ccoffer on 7/26 @ 6:23 pm #
Rhetorical standard? Is B Brown saying Coolidge was the last good president? The last good conservative president?
WTF?
It smells like a Chomsky style bait.
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 6:29 pm #
There is a difference between hyperbole and being fundamentally wrong. The examples you are giving are political hyperbole, saying the world standing as one brought down the Berlin Wall, unless by “one” you actually mean “two big forces, one of which collapsed, and a multitude of little back-biters”.
Then I guess it could be considered hyperbole.
Comment by ccoffer on 7/26 @ 6:30 pm #
Are the Nippons prepared for “Western Style” democracy, or are they suited for something more medieval? Doggy style maybe?
How about the Germans? What sort are they seeking?
How about them Mongoloid Russians? What sort of democracy are they “suited for”?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:31 pm #
“um, that doesn’t mean those individuals don’t yearn for liberty. it’s just their liberty entails oppressing others.”
So, the Soviets had liberty all along, eh? And Iran has been a real success story.
If we’re going to use cute definitions of “liberty” when convenient, we might as well just not use the word.
“Rhetorical standard? Is B Brown saying Coolidge was the last good president? The last good conservative president?”
I mean that he was among the last of the presidents who didn’t feel that their duty extended to talking a great deal of nonsense about history. The rhetorical standard I’m talking about concerns not making utterances that are pretty at the expense of being accurate or meaningful. As in, Obama is simply the latest to say such silly things. McCain, to his credit, only says silly things about smaller issues, and rarely feels the need to get all historical and whatnot when giving a speech because he is too busy making outlandish claims regarding being the nation’s biggest critic of the Iraq War.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:37 pm #
“How about them Mongoloid Russians? What sort of democracy are they “suited forâ€Â?”
The kind that isn’t actually a democracy, it would seem. Give them another 50 years. God forbid I have a low opinion of Russian political culture…
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:37 pm #
you have a problem distinguishing individuals and governments. you don’t think the people leading in the Soviet Union had some liberty? let’s go back and look at what you said:
“yearning for liberty” and “yearning for socialism” are not mutually exclusive on an individual level. unless of course you’re assuming that anyone “yearning for socialism” thinks they aren’t going to be the ones benefiting due to having more liberty to do as they please.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 6:37 pm #
Obama is simply a gay hopey changey marxistrevolutionary fairygodmother wannabe.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 7/26 @ 6:37 pm #
I’m sorry, I thought the topic was realism in U.S. foreign policy.
Here’s some realism for you:
The war in Iraq is over.
Your side lost.
Sorry about that.
Comment by Darleen on 7/26 @ 6:39 pm #
Well, they don’t. A good portion of the readership of this blog is convinced that this country’s largest political party is preparing the nation for socialism, or that it proceeds ideologically from fascism.
BB
You don’t seem to understand that the trick of socialism is the promise to people of Freedom From Responsibility. Socialism is the feelgoodism of children. Being an adult and accepting an adult’s responsibility is hard work.
Yes, there are any number of people who look at socialism’s promises of “taking care” of the poor, the sick, the old and the babies and think “wow, what a good and compassionate thing! anyone that opposes that must be an old poopyhead” … so you might think they don’t want liberty. But those people really have little idea of what they are giving up in terms of liberty to get to that societal “perfection”… and the pro-collectivist authoritarians who DO know will do anything to keep us poopy heads from pointing it out.
Most people do want liberty … socialists just try to make it “libertine” –bread and circuses in exchange for selling oneself into slavery.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:39 pm #
but also your disputing the quote is fundamentally flawed in that you haven’t shown that GWB hasn’t heard that all people yearn for liberty. you got any other quotes?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:45 pm #
“you have a problem distinguishing individuals and governments.”
I’ll try to find a good cognitive psychiatrist in my area.
“you don’t think the people leading in the Soviet Union had some liberty?”
I know they did. But mostly, they had power. They could have been ever freer had they simply left, as some did. But the power was what they yearned for. Do conservatives no longer read Orwell?
““yearning for liberty†and “yearning for socialism†are not mutually exclusive on an individual level. unless of course you’re assuming that anyone “yearning for socialism†thinks they aren’t going to be the ones benefiting due to having more liberty to do as they please.”
There are, I think, many, many people throughout history who have accepted tyranny in which they themselves do not individually get to participate in the machinations of tyranny. There are an unfortunate number of Russians who were not even party members but who still remember Stalin fondly. Even below the uppermost beneficiaries of tyranny are the class of men who receive no additional power but who love security more than freedom because they are, frankly, pussies. So, no, I don’t think that one can accurately claim that all individuals “yearn for liberty” without stretching out the term so far that it snaps back and takes out an eye.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 6:47 pm #
There are, I think, many, many people throughout history who have accepted tyranny in which they themselves do not individually get to participate in the machinations of tyranny.
This goes beyond HOAs, Barrett.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:48 pm #
and Bush never would have heard anyone say that, am I right?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:49 pm #
“but also your disputing the quote is fundamentally flawed in that you haven’t shown that GWB hasn’t heard that all people yearn for liberty. you got any other quotes?”
I think this is addressed in my last post, but if you disagree, we can pick up with another quote next time we run into each other on the ol’ internets; need to go hit the bar soon before I start googling Calvin Coolidge and end up in front of my computer all night.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 6:49 pm #
Time was there were no democracies. I wonder where they came from?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:51 pm #
not so much.
Comment by sashal on 7/26 @ 6:53 pm #
BB, just don’t yell ” Socialism, Socialism” in the crowded theater.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:54 pm #
“This goes beyond HOAs, Barrett.”
I’m afraid that I don’t recognize your acronym. Is it some sort of Bible Code?
“Time was there were no democracies. I wonder where they came from?”
Jesus, I reckon.
Just kidding. They came from the effete and humanistic Greeks, none of whom you’d probably want to have a beer with. Not sure where you’re trying to go with this one.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 6:54 pm #
soldiers are a marching, they’re writing brand new laws
will we fight together 4 the most important cause?
will we fight
4 the right
2 be free?
That is a good quote for you Barrett I think.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:56 pm #
“not so much.”
Okay, real quick, what’s the exact question? Are you asking if Bush would have heard the term “year for liberty”? I’m sorry, doing a couple of things at once here.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:57 pm #
yes. you said that quote was untrue.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 6:58 pm #
actually, it’s would have heard the term, “all people yearn for liberty”
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 6:58 pm #
I was just trying to get a free lesson in political philosophy out of you, Mr. Brown. Where else would I be going with it?
Effete and humanistic you say? You mean the bunch that razed Melos, killed all the men and took the women and children as slaves? That bunch?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:02 pm #
Did I? “Yearn for liberty” was a term used by Darleen above to describe her take on what Bush has said. I was arguing that, to the extent that someone believes that all people “yearn for liberty,” that someone is wrong. Sorry, I’m a little confused so let me know if I’m not following you correctly.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:06 pm #
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 6:14 pm #
“I heard that all people yearn for liberty.â€Â
Well, they don’t. A good portion of the readership of this blog is convinced that this country’s largest political party is preparing the nation for socialism, or that it proceeds ideologically from fascism. So, either you don’t really think that or you don’t really think that all people yearn for liberty, but will allow Bush to say such things even though you know them to be [not] true while at the same time holding Obama to some rhetorical standard which doesn’t even allow for such things as claiming that “the world†stood as one against the Soviets.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:07 pm #
oh carp. okay. I see what I did. you haven’t even bothered to quote GWB yet.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 7:08 pm #
GWB, liberator.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:08 pm #
“Effete and humanistic you say? You mean the bunch that razed Melos, killed all the men and took the women and children as slaves? That bunch?”
I meant that many would be denounced as “effete” by our brilliant national pundits like William Kristol. One can kill a man in the wilderness yet still be denounced as too hoity-toity by the entire conservative blogosphere. Doing so was one of John Kerry’s few accomplishments as a candidate. Imagine how they’d treat Pericles and the Athenians in general.
Also, I’d be interested to know what you think “humanistic” means and how you think such an attribute contradicts the practice of engaging in war and taking slaves.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:10 pm #
deflect, deflect, deflect. put up or shut up Barrett.
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 7:10 pm #
you haven’t even bothered to quote GWB yet.
He hasn’t really done much of anything except to apparently be asserting some sort of literal absolutism that can’t delineate between degrees of hyperbole and rhetoric and outright falsehood.
Comment by Darleen on 7/26 @ 7:12 pm #
GWB Inaugural 2005
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:12 pm #
“you haven’t even bothered to quote GWB yet.”
Ah, you’re correct. Here we go:
“Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom, and never even to have a choice in the matter? I, for one, do not believe it. I believe every person has the ability and the right to be free.”
This is either false or “free” means nothing.
“We believe that liberty is the design of nature; we believe that liberty is the direction of history.”
This is either false or “liberty” means nothing and “history” only includes bits and pieces from the annals of human activity taken mostly from the most recent chapters.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 7:13 pm #
prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder
We have seen the enemy I think.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:13 pm #
why?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:14 pm #
also, where are you pulling your “quotes” from?
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:15 pm #
“deflect, deflect, deflect. put up or shut up Barrett.”
As you must be aware, I was distracted. Not only am I simultaneously arguing with one capable person (you) and several incapable people, but we got Darleen and President Bush confused for a little while there, didn’t we?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:15 pm #
um, are you saying that it’s a “fact” that there is less liberty today?
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 7:18 pm #
“…I believe every person has the ability and the right to be free.â€Â
This is either false or “free†means nothing.
You are going to have to explain that one, hoss, it ain’t as self-evident as you might believe.
“We believe that liberty is the design of nature; we believe that liberty is the direction of history.â€Â
This is either false or “liberty†means nothing and “history†only includes bits and pieces from the annals of human activity taken mostly from the most recent chapters.
The key word here is “direction”. If history is indeed heading in this direction, it would stand to reason that it is most evident recently.
The lack of nuance is strong in this one.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 7:18 pm #
Humanistic was your descriptor of the Athenians Mr. Brown. I confess I have no idea what you meant by it in applying it to the Athenians of 4th C BC. I additionally imagine no Greek of the fourth century BC would either.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:19 pm #
“also, where are you pulling your “quotes†from?”
I’m “pulling” “the” “first” “one” “from” “the” “White” “House.” Apparently executive privilege doesn’t cover everything quite yet:
“Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow…” http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031106-2.html
And the second comes from the State Department, which not only negotiates with the Iranians these days, but also maintains a nice database:
“We believe that liberty…”" http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/2004/30555.htm
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:22 pm #
it’s just polite to link so people don’t have to google. it’s also polite to at least use tinyurl.com to link if you can’t handle the html. I could see why you might be gunshy about linking after the earlier fiasco.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:23 pm #
“Humanistic was your descriptor of the Athenians Mr. Brown. I confess I have no idea what you meant by it in applying it to the Athenians of 4th C BC. I additionally imagine no Greek of the fourth century BC would either.”
You can just call me Barrett. I was describing the Greeks in general, not just the Athenians, although it would have been more accurate if I was just describing the latter. 4th century Greeks of a certain education would understand the concept of humanism.
Comment by Rick Ballard on 7/26 @ 7:24 pm #
Geez, I thought this post was about the Chicago whorehouse piano player’s inability to carry a tune in a concert hall.
Comment by Darleen on 7/26 @ 7:24 pm #
BB
I think the confusion is the rhetorical use of the word “all”…as in “all people”. Certainly there are exceptions. We see it every day… The vast majority of people just want to live their lives, deal with others in an honest manner and be dealt with honestly and be satisfied at the end of each day. Yet, crime – from the mundane to murderous – exists. There are individuals who are outside the the normal aspirations of most people. But I don’t give a speech where I say “all people would love to live without fearing crime” with a bunch of disclaimers “except for criminals, of course”.
It IS and remains a fundamental assumption of the American value system that people have inherent rights, whether or not a government has secured those rights for them. These rights objectively exist, whether or not an individual wants to accept them.
There is nothing “unrealistic” about either the value system or the assumptions it makes.
Trackback by American Power on 7/26 @ 7:26 pm #
McCain Hammers Obama with New Ad Buy…
The trouble is not just Obama’s scrubbed Landstuhl visit, but his overall presumptuousness as some president-in-waiting……
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:27 pm #
but Darleen, You know, it’s always a bad practice to say ‘always’ or ‘never’. I imagine “all” would count as well. ;D
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 7:29 pm #
” A good portion of the readership of this blog is convinced that this country’s largest political party is preparing the nation for socialism, or that it proceeds ideologically from fascism.”
I know, I know, truth stings.
It’s a bitch, ain’t it?
Comment by RTO Trainer on 7/26 @ 7:29 pm #
“Western-style democracy”
Is there such a thing as Eastern-style democracy?
Comment by Darleen on 7/26 @ 7:30 pm #
BB
To be shorter … Either objective values exist suitable for human individual life, or we are nothing but predator/prey, with no more moral worth as individuals than a rock.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:30 pm #
Okay, regarding Bush’s quotes and why I designate them as false:
“I believe every person has the ability and the right to be free.”
First, tell me what you think this actually means, if you would. As for this one, though…
“We believe that liberty is the design of nature…”
… it is absolutely, entirely false. There is no design to nature. Or, if there is, and nature is acting under the dictates of the Judeo-Christian God, then a brief glance at the Old Testament ought to demonstrate that, no, Yahweh did not ascribe to the belief of universal liberty, equal rights, or even the right of children not to be slaughtered by invading armies. As for the Hindu gods, I’d have to get back to you.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:32 pm #
Comment by The Lost Dog on 7/26 @ 7:32 pm #
Ummmm. Barret?
You didn’t back up your “demonstrably untrue” statement with any facts. So what if you were to actually demonstrate these “untruths”?
Care to fill us in?
Be careful here. There a lot of people here that know the real facts, and a DU response will get you gutted and quartered at PW. There are very few “lemmings” here, my friend. Either back up your statements with facts (which I doubt you can do), or go back to the HuffPost where facts are inconsequential, and BDS fantasy rules.
My guess, at this moment, is that you will come up with bullshit talking points, but absolutely no facts. It’s the “new” American way, and it goes hand in hand with believing that the Constitution is nothing more than something to wipe your dirty butt with.
Enjoy your “Brave New World”. We are all very impressed by your logic and your “fuck history” approach to intellect. So you are ther future?
Cool, baby!
Very impressive, my man!
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 7:33 pm #
please explain who “we” is and that they don’t believe that liberty is the design of nature.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 7:34 pm #
““We believe that liberty is the design of nature…â€Â
… it is absolutely, entirely false.”
Sorry, bunky, wrong again:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 7:37 pm #
I’m detecting a strong scent of statolotry off this Barrett character.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 7:44 pm #
“please explain who “we†is and that they don’t believe that liberty is the design of nature.”
I am not President Bush, but I’m assuming that he’s talking about himself and everyone on his Christmas card list. I suspect that you might be trying to say that, as long as Bush and his friends do in fact “believe” this, then his statement is not technically false. Fine – I think that the belief which he holds and which he expresses publicly is demonstrably untrue for reasons I have expressed above. I will concede that he may actually believe this.
“Sorry, bunky, wrong again:”
Thomas Jefferson, of whom I am quite fond, does not have magical ability to make things true simply by writing them down on parchment, so obviously his expressed sentiments do not establish reality and thus do not effectively refute my assertions about reality. I don’t know what “bunky” means but I’m assuming that it’s your catchphrase, so I’ll refrain from stealing it.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 7:47 pm #
“There is no design to nature.”
So the gravitational constant for acceleration, 9.81 m/sec, is not fixed?
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 7:49 pm #
“and thus do not effectively refute my assertions about reality.”
Well “reality” might be different when your head is in your anus.
Comment by sashal on 7/26 @ 7:57 pm #
#78
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.â€Â
and was the continuation of this phrase like this:
“And if they do not have it, we reserve the right to go and bomb the fuck out of them, or invade them ,or kill a few of them, until the survivors will get how they are supposed to live, the way we westerners understand they are supposed to live…”?
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 8:01 pm #
oh, sashal’s mangling again!
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:02 pm #
“So the gravitational constant for acceleration, 9.81 m/sec, is not fixed?”
It was not “fixed” in the sense that any entity engaged in the “fixing” of it, in my estimation; at any rate, I don’t see any compelling reason to think that any such entity did any such thing, but rather that it is the case for reasons that humanity may never be able to grasp, or may perhaps be able to grasp in the future. So, as you can imagine, I don’t place much stock in the idea that nature was “designed” with freedom in mind. I think the evidence on that runs far to the contrary. Perhaps I’m not as optimistic as you fellows.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 8:02 pm #
“we reserve the right to go and bomb the fuck out of them”
Or to out source it to Saddam HUSSEIN and the Taliban.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 8:04 pm #
“…4th century Greeks of a certain education would understand the concept of humanism…”
Well sure they would, Barrett, after you explained to them where the concept came from. You might have to fill them in on Christianity etc. just so they get what all the fuss is about.
Whereupon, depending on which particular Greeks you’re conversing with, you might find yourself being take out for a little hemlock at the local hoosegow, or, who knows, feted at the house of the guy who’s Dad just made a killing in the Corcyrean slave trade. And a rollicking time is had by all.
I believe they would be capable of understanding radios and televisions as well, once you take them through the many steps it takes to get there. They were not dummies, those Greeks.
But understanding, a priori, the philosophical conclusions of the renaissance when you drop them in conversation, I don’t think so. And voluntarily describing themselves in those terms without having ever heard them?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:04 pm #
“Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 8:01 pm #
oh, sashal’s mangling again!”
Like I said, crack is a gateway drug to whatever it is that sashy uses.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 8:05 pm #
“So, as you can imagine, I don’t place much stock in the idea that nature was “designed—
Are there about 365 days in a year? Is the speed of light 186,000 miles/sec. Does the Earth tilt?
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 8:05 pm #
sashal, count your blessings I think really. There’s Iran. And North Korea is still marvelously repressive. Oooh… Zimbabwe, there’s one for you. Venezuela! There’s so much adorable tyranny in the world for you to embrace, and yet you’re so bitter about Iraq. It’s kind of a fixation with you really.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:06 pm #
“So, as you can imagine, I don’t place much stock in the idea that nature was “designed†with freedom in mind”
Scratch a reactionary lefty, find the fascist.
Comment by Rusty on 7/26 @ 8:06 pm #
#1
No Barret. He said everybody ought to have the opportunity to attemp a representative democracy. Nice try though.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:14 pm #
“Are there about 365 days in a year?”
Oh, wow. How about you go argue with Sashal?
“Scratch a reactionary lefty, find the fascist.”
I love your phrasing, but, no, my assertion that the concept of freedom does not spring from the “design” of nature does not make me a fascist.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 8:18 pm #
I don’t see the evidence that Mr. Brown is a leftist of any stripe as yet, and I wouldn’t be inclined to make any assumptions on that score. Mr. Brown will tell you what his political disposition is when he decides he wants to. In the meantime, he has questions, opinions and a fluidity with the language. Let’s let him speak for himself.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 8:21 pm #
“Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:14 pm #
“Are there about 365 days in a year?â€Â
Oh, wow. How about you go argue with Sashal?”
Sir: Are there physical constants or is everything depending on your reality which is dark because you are exploring your anus?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:21 pm #
“I love your phrasing, but, no, my assertion that the concept of freedom does not spring from the “design†of nature does not make me a fascist.”
Sure it does, fascist.
And by design, I don’t mean God, me being an agnostic and all.
Comment by RTO Trainer on 7/26 @ 8:21 pm #
Great. Moron wants to play semantic games.
How about if it were stated this way: Just as gravity, for whatever reason, not only exists, but is constant, humans are, and of right ought to be, free. It is how things are.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:23 pm #
Ah, RTO, but what if the Gravitaional Constant changes? Then it’s not constant. It may even be incontinent.
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:26 pm #
“I don’t see the evidence that Mr. Brown is a leftist of any stripe as yet, and I wouldn’t be inclined to make any assumptions on that score. Mr. Brown will tell you what his political disposition is when he decides he wants to. In the meantime, he has questions, opinions and a fluidity with the language. Let’s let him speak for himself.”
I very much appreciate that, and would like to continue our splinter debate about the Greeks and humanism soon (we’ll hijack another thread for the purpose). I’ve got to go for the evening, but wish everyone a good weekend – particularly the acclaimed Nazi hunter N.O’Brain!
Comment by RTO Trainer on 7/26 @ 8:29 pm #
Then we adjust the text books and move on with a better understanding of the universe.
Barney’s going to have to refute Jefferson, Locke, Hobbes and Rouseau.
Interesting to me that he’d chose to deny the basic philosophical underpinnings of Republican ism in all it’s forms.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 8:29 pm #
“Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:14 pm”
Did the GPS satellites need to change their clocks to incorporate Einstein’s Relativity Theory?
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:29 pm #
I just calls ‘em as I sees em, fascist.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 8:31 pm #
“I’ve got to go for the evening,”
Hope you find an open personhole cover. Because I’m PC.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:32 pm #
Oh, and as a demonstration of your historical ignorance, not all fascists are Nazis.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:33 pm #
“Tragedy is I cut my finger. Comedy is if you fall into an open manhole and die.”
-Mel Brooks
Comment by Barrett Brown on 7/26 @ 8:38 pm #
“Oh, and as a demonstration of your historical ignorance, not all fascists are Nazis.”
Yes, but *I* am! And you caught me!
Okay, bye for realz this time, yo.
Comment by N. O'Brain on 7/26 @ 8:50 pm #
“Only intellectuals are capable of believing certain kinds of nonsense.”
-George Orwell
Comment by poppa india on 7/26 @ 8:52 pm #
Though Nature may not have been designed, it seems to have evolved in certain ways. Humans have two arms, two legs, fish have gills, etc. And along with physical evolution, we humans have evolved to our present state because we have come to be able to make choices, climb a tree or run, hunt or gather or plant, whatever seems best. I think this ability to make choices has led us to value the freedom to make choices, because it is how we have survived as a species. So, in a sense, valuing this freedom has been designed into us by evolution and, in many cultures , has been extended to politics and government.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 9:11 pm #
Yay to what you say poppa india! Freedom evolves, and very likely will continue to.
Which is why I said upthread, time was there were no democracies. I wonder where they came from?
Comment by Daniel on 7/26 @ 9:27 pm #
Mccain complains way to much. He’s a baby. I would hate to have him as a president. He is not president-worthy.
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 9:27 pm #
“We believe that liberty is the design of nature…â€Â
… it is absolutely, entirely false. There is no design to nature.,
Let us start by attempting to define a couple of terms,
Nature
2. A causal agent creating and controlling things in the universe; “the laws of nature”; “nature has seen to it that men are stronger than women”.
3. The natural physical world including plants and animals and landscapes etc.; “they tried to preserve nature as they found it”.
I am copying only the ones that seem appropriate,
Liberty
Noun
1. Immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence.
2. Freedom of choice: “liberty of opinion”; “liberty of worship”; “liberty–perfect liberty–to think or feel or do just as one pleases”; “at liberty to choose whatever occupation one wishes”.
3. Personal freedom from servitude or confinement or oppression.
Now, I would say a “causal agent creating and controlling things” could be considered a designer, don’t you agree? And I would further state that all of the definitions of liberty would be considered the de facto state of the natural world. In my experience any animal not free to do as it pleases seems to be desirous of gaining said freedom.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 9:38 pm #
“Comment by Daniel on 7/26 @ 9:27 pm #
Mccain complains way to much. ”
’cause ” America is a mean country” “God DAMN America”
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 9:40 pm #
McCain complains too much? In the context of O’s Berlin bitchfest all you got is McCain’s complains too much? Do you have to wear safety goggles to eat with a fork?
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 9:40 pm #
BMoe, nature is one bitch of a word to have to start with. But you gotta start where you gotta start.
I was taught that there is no word nature or for nature in the hebrew scriptures. It was a concept without a home there.
Further I was taught that the Greeks were the first to pin down the concept in their word phusis and that it began as a term of distinction from nomos, or custom.
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 9:40 pm #
Obama = The Bay City Rollers
Comment by dre on 7/26 @ 9:43 pm #
Obama and his idiots = America SUCKS.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 9:43 pm #
As in “dogs bark”, “women menstruate” (phusis) vs. our tribe buries its dead while that tribe over there eats its dead and that other tribe over there burns their dead (nomos).
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 9:53 pm #
I am just trying to get Barrett to elaborate on how he figures that statement, which he misquoted, to be obviously and absolutely false. I am not seeing it.
Comment by B Moe on 7/26 @ 9:59 pm #
our tribe buries its dead while that tribe over there eats its dead and that other tribe over there burns their dead (nomos).
That would fit under number two, and it still seems to me to be behavior by design in that there is a reason the tribes choose those customs, and the reasons carry consequences. For instance, regardless of the conscious rationale for those behaviors, burning and burying are good sanitary choices while eating is not, so the tribes that eat their dead are going to die off from disease while the others flourish. Burial rites designed by nature.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 10:09 pm #
Right, I understand that I think. But what Barrett means by his claim I couldn’t say without a hell of a lot of work (which, needless to say, I’m not gonna do.)
I was actually addressing (without being clear about it for sure) the first definition you dropped above, namely:
“…2. A causal agent creating and controlling things in the universe; “the laws of natureâ€Â; “nature has seen to it that men are stronger than womenâ€Â. …”
with a view to getting to the use to which you put it:
‘…say a “causal agent creating and controlling things†could be considered a designer…”
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 10:11 pm #
The eating tribes wouldn’t necessarily die off I don’t think. but that is neither here nor there as I just made that example up, where a couple of thousand others will suffice.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 10:13 pm #
I was actually willing to try to get at, without a reference to turn to, what we mean by nature and nature’s god. We mean, not what the founders meant. Though I’d like to know that too, where possible.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/26 @ 10:17 pm #
Another way of putting my concern or interest is that, nature, as I said above is one genuine bitch of a word, having almost as many different and distinguishable meanings as almost any common word I can think of, and for that reason alone ought to be treated kinda like a hand-grenade with the ringpin pulled.
Comment by fred on 7/26 @ 11:38 pm #
Silly liberals – no nee-groes!
Comment by happyfeet on 7/26 @ 11:51 pm #
That’s offensive, fred.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/26 @ 11:59 pm #
is it, happyfeet? I couldn’t decide what the heck it was supposed to be. like, maybe he meant to use = and accidentally hit -. maybe I give too much benefit of the doubt.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 12:04 am #
I sort of just made a call, really.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 12:09 am #
that works for me. at this point, I’m just rambling.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 12:12 am #
I’m beat.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 12:21 am #
yeah. I’m just coming out of something. but here. I maded cupcakes
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 1:02 am #
oh. Those look really good. Thursday was a sweet stuff cutoff day for me for awhile. NG introduced me to red velvet cake. Never had it before. This was just the Ralph’s one. I can’t believe I’d walked by it all these years. I’m going on a workout kick mostly so I can have more. It was that good, no lie.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 1:09 am #
yes, I’ve been meaning to research what’s up with the red velvet (it’s not quite chocolate or chocolate plus ???). I made some at Christmas time and guy at the office the other day was all, “those were the best” so maybe those will be next.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 1:13 am #
oh this was an actual red cake, but really really moist almost like they’re done it with pudding mix in there, and it had a really passable, no, really really good just not as good as mom’s creamcheese icing. The trick has to be the puddingness. And the icing.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 1:14 am #
I think I meant *they’d* done it
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 1:17 am #
here, I think this post kinda covers it. There’s not much cocoa in it, which explains the “not really chocolate” thing and food coloring.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 1:24 am #
oh. wow. I bet NG doesn’t even know that.
Well, duh, lady. Cake-to-frosting balance. As if.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 7/27 @ 3:56 am #
““And if they do not have it, we reserve the right to go and bomb the fuck out of them, or invade them ,or kill a few of them, until the survivors will get how they are supposed to live, the way we westerners understand they are supposed to live?”
- sashal, this is one of you holy grail, held close to your heart screeds ,that the Left also uses, the myth of the great Satanic imperialistic war mongering hegemonic oil hungry America”.
- Its total bullshit. You would be long dead if that were even slightly true.
- America is the most beneficent super power that has ever existed in the history of the world.
- Name me another super power from any age that would have not only rehabilitated and rebuilt all the countries that wanted to destroy us, but did not one damn thing to benefit from the wars they made us fight.
- I get so tired of the “hate America first” gaggle sing their crapola song.
- If America was such an evil empire as you try so very hard to paint us just to erect a strawman for your other screeds, we’d already own and occupy most of the world, and we most assuredly would not be paying 4 bucks for a gallon of gasoline. BTW, where are all those fucking barrels of oil the braindead Left said we went into Iraq for?
- So knock off the crap. Its an old tired Socialist meme that is debunked on its very face. We do not go and bomb anyone to force them into democracy. That is a stupid fucking lie.
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 7/27 @ 4:24 am #
- Now, once again, back on topiv.
- Obama was a Socialist, delivering a Socialist speech in a Socialist country surrounded by other Socialist countries.
- Maybe that will help him get elected President of France, or Chancellor of Germany or some such thing.
- Here in America we want an America President who “thinks” American independence, not Socialist collectivism.
- But then a Democratic Republic is funny that way.
- Socialisms lead to fascism, and both result in lots of dead bodies. Socialism is an unworkable sumbass ideology.
Comment by sashal on 7/27 @ 5:12 am #
BBH, I love you man. Please, don’t read scary books before you go to sleep. They cause anxiety and may lead to heart disease. Listen to your friend…
Comment by Civilis on 7/27 @ 7:18 am #
To expand on BBH, we set up a democratic government so we hopefully don’t have to go back and “bomb the fuck out of them” again. Instituting democracy and the rule of law are a means to guaranteeing our national security in place of “bomb the fuck out of them”, because people complain when we “bomb the fuck out of them” (even if we try to minimize the number of people we kill when we “bomb the fuck out of them”). The anti-war left has shifted it’s meme to (sarcastically) “why didn’t you attack Iran? They’re just as bad as Iraq!”, forgetting that we were at war with Iraq, and we were at war with Iraq because the lats time we fought them, we didn’t go through and institute democracy and the rule of law. Sashal’s stuck on stupid insisting that we went to war with Iraq to impose our will on them, but imposing our will on them is a means to and end of guaranteeing our national security and a means rather than a goal or cause.
Comment by Rusty on 7/27 @ 7:22 am #
#93
” my assertion that the concept of freedom does not spring from the “design†of nature …”
Yes it does. See how that works.
Comment by BuddyPC on 7/27 @ 9:43 am #
14. Comment by Karl on 7/26 @ 6:09 pm #
BB is sufficiently in thrall to his own BDS that he has not come to grips with the fact that GWB will be out of office next year. BO, otoh, might be in the WH next year, so his lack of realism is a little more salient.
That’s because BushCo acceded office via junta, we’ve been told all along, by the very same dissenting patriots who affix 9-20-09 bumper stickers.
Thus, I can allow some confusion. Mostly my own.
Half the crowd’s gonna have some egg on their face in six months whether Bush does, or doesn’t, step down.
Comment by BuddyPC on 7/27 @ 9:54 am #
Oops. That’s “1-20-09″.
See how confusing it is?
Comment by fred on 7/27 @ 10:29 pm #
Silly little Liberals! NO nee-groes!
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 10:30 pm #
oh, okay, definitely offensive.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 10:34 pm #
Too much of these sorts for one day.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 10:41 pm #
yeah, probably, happyfeet. and I’ve been having really violent dreams lately. maybe it’s nothing. just been thinkin’ about it.
Comment by Dread Cthulhu on 7/27 @ 10:48 pm #
BB: “One can kill a man in the wilderness yet still be denounced as too hoity-toity by the entire conservative blogosphere. Doing so was one of John Kerry’s few accomplishments as a candidate.”
Kerry was unable to reconcile the military myth he sought to create with the post-war myth he had been living off of, politically, for three decades.
BB: “It was not “fixed†in the sense that any entity engaged in the “fixing†of it, in my estimation; ”
IOW, you don’t know, either… you’re asserting, not proving and demanding that other’s prove the negative — freshman philosphy class bullshit via bootstrap levititation.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 10:52 pm #
I wake up doing that trying to scream but can’t thing about once a year, then go back to sleep. I never remember why. The weirdest was when I dreamed about this big ugly yellow and black spider, and then in the morning I was going out on the deck with my coffee, and I opened the blinds and in the center of the glass doors… on the inside… there it was. I dropped my coffee. I guess I must have seen it but not seen it, crawling around the day before. But it still creeped me out.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 10:57 pm #
eeeeeee! spiders!
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 7/27 @ 10:59 pm #
The weirdest was when I dreamed about this big ugly yellow and black spider
Probably a Garden Spider
They’re cool creatures.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:01 pm #
But then there is the not cool spider too: http://tinyurl.com/72r57
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:02 pm #
It was one of them I think. Harmless I knew, just, it was in my brain and all. That’s so wrong.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 11:03 pm #
swear to God if I dream about spiders tonight I will find you all. Thought maybe that’s not likely as RTO’s nephew was here the other night and he made many trips around the house saying “spiders” not sure why really.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:04 pm #
Elephants, maggie, don’t think about elephants.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:04 pm #
OH. I know that one. I had all my stuff in undergrad get infested with those over the summer in storage. I couldn’t afford new stuff so I had to go over every inch of everything, scraping off eggs and squashing them. The one I can still picture was hiding in a box of tea. I still think about that when I make tea.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:05 pm #
The whole fiddle thing? Big lie.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:06 pm #
Have you seen a time series of what one of those bites does? It is way nasty.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:07 pm #
oh. #156 is my brown recluse story. I’ve done that one here before.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:07 pm #
My aunt and cousin both have disfigured legs from those. It’s not too strong a word.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:11 pm #
I’m sorry to hear that about them. The strength of the toxin has always made me wonder what prey B Recluse was in an arms race with.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:13 pm #
That’s a good question. Might just could be evil.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:20 pm #
I’m more inclined to think furries are evil than stupider spiders. Besides the story of the worlds most potent toxin in the salamander in Oregon and the snake that eats them have pretty good immunity to it. That toxin is so bad the tiniest speck could kill many people, yet it only slows the snake down a to sluggish.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:20 pm #
fucking evolution.
Comment by CasSarahW on 7/27 @ 11:22 pm #
This one time I there was a fisher spider in the laundry room on the floor all flat still as the grave, dead, a dry husk. I bent over cause it was cool and SPROING! Right in the face and then it ran into my best linen duvet and I didn’t know what to do.
The horro of those legs. They just curved up and the spider was eight feet tall on rocket feet.
Later I found out they bite.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 11:24 pm #
okay, I’m adding SarahW to the list…
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 7/27 @ 11:24 pm #
Boris the Spider.
Comment by B Moe on 7/27 @ 11:26 pm #
Rust never sleeps.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:28 pm #
hf, you probably have tarantula lore to tell too, I’d bet. I used to run into them as a kid in Ft. Worth, catch em in a jar and stuff.
Comment by CasSarahW on 7/27 @ 11:32 pm #
Last night I dreamt I had to get to the vet fast because some kid was on the loose who needed to be stopped. A kid in striped pajamas.
My husband and I got there and I looked in the exam room and it was all over.
Vet sprawled with eyes open still and surprised mouth agape, kid nearby almost on top of the vet with a knife still in his hand, dead dead dead. There had been some kind of big fight. SInking feeling but I got the knife out of the kids hand, just in case he was like that spider.
The week before I woke up yelling. I had a happy dream with a collie I once had all bouncing around the yard, in and out the dog door with a larg salami he had captured. And then I opened my new SUV (which I don’t have one yet) and there was a kitty I once had all cute in a ridiculous japanese-made pink costume. And I went in the house with my happy dog and went upstairs and I hear a “knock knock knock.” Very quiet rapping on the front door. I am apprehensive at it is too early for anyone to call and I go down the stairs “knock knock knock” “Who is it? ” I say kind of fearfully and I realize the door isn’t locked and before I can get to it, the door swings wide and it’s my MOM who walks right in.
Oh Hello, she says in scarf and raincoat and makeup and I start screaming because, I think I remember having cremated her at some point.
Comment by Sdferr on 7/27 @ 11:36 pm #
I recommend elephants. Nice elephants.
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/27 @ 11:39 pm #
ha ha. last night, I dreamt I was at some museum or something and was getting really annoyed because I had to sit through some lecture or recital (there was a piano) but anyway, I was there to assassinate someone, so the everyone sitting was wasting my time. but I woke up before I completed my mission. stupid dog.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/27 @ 11:50 pm #
A little but not really. I caught them as a kid too, but just a few times. And I never was one of those that would really handle them and let them walk on me. They’re out here too in California… I found one in that weird hilly grassy country place outside of Yosemite once.
Comment by Challeron on 7/28 @ 5:18 am #
Now I’ll never get back to sleep…
Comment by Blitz on 7/28 @ 8:31 pm #
Regarding Spiders…That map of the Brown Recluse is WAY outdated! Here in NE Mass, I’ve seen those, Black widows (especially in a newly built community in Holliston, circa 1978) and a camel spider. Admittedly, the last was from a pic in Iraq? but ICK!!! Full disclosure, my family has been in pest control since the early fifties.
Comment by fred on 7/28 @ 10:50 pm #
killing spiders is bad luck.
No nee-groes, and I mean it!
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/28 @ 10:55 pm #
so when do we start the pool on when he finds the front page and actually engages instead of, um, barfing?
Comment by fred on 7/29 @ 10:56 am #
Hussein Obama knows that one can never, ever overestimate the ignorance and gullibility of the public.
His appeal with younger voters is easy to explain – they are the ones that don’t know how to find America on a World map, don’t know where Iran is, don’t know why the Civil War was fought, don’t know when WW II was fought, don’t know who won that war, don’t know how to add, subtract, multiply, or divide without a calculator, don’t know which ocean is the Pacific, etc.
But, in their defense, they DO know the names of at least two members of the Simpson family.
This is the audacity of the dope.
So!
No nee-groes!
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/29 @ 11:02 am #
Fred, you’ve got your time of day confused, you’re about 12 hours early.
Comment by fred on 7/29 @ 11:58 am #
Dear maggie:
%^&*$()#_@+!!!!!!!!!!%%%%###$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Germans with Irish first names!!!!!
Comment by maggie katzen on 7/29 @ 12:01 pm #
aw, it can read.
Comment by fred on 7/29 @ 2:08 pm #
you wish!
Get it?