July 2, 2008

Integral Calculus [Dan Collins]

Rick Moran agrees with both me and Lisa regarding Clark’s comments on McCain’s military service.

Dr. Helen’s woman-on-man rape post is up to about 300 comments (Related)

Put a Tiger In Your Tank! (h/t Hot Air newsfeed)

Posted by Dan Collins @ 9:34am
180 comments | Trackback

Comments (180)

  1. Jesus Mary and Joseph, but the first few of those commenters on Dr. Helen’s are hostile!

    While I find Dr. Helen sometimes way too dismissive of domestic violence from time to time, I don’t doubt for a minute this guy’s story and I would definitely label it “rape”.

  2. Color me skeptical, Darleen. Lots more guys get raped by judges than women.

  3. Still, I don’t understand the over-the-top hostility, either.

  4. Intercourse took place, without the permission of one of the parties. That is the classic definition of rape.

    A lot of women get the short end of the stick in court too, Dan. The capricious nature of judges throughout the family court system is the unintended consequence of its setup, not a design feature.

    Kinda like the juvenile court system. See the debacle in San FRancisco re: illegal alien minor drug dealers.

  5. There should be no blanket prohibition of the death penalty for when skeezey pregnant women rape you I don’t think. Baracky’s got my back on this.

  6. “Still, I don’t understand the over-the-top hostility, either.”

    – Feminists would see this as an attempt to steal the narrative, or at the very least dilute it. They tend to have a very tenuous hold on reality as it is, so any “sharing” of victimhood would be threatening. In their world only women could possible be raped.

  7. BBH

    with all do respect, some of those hostile commenters are men.

  8. No, I’m not buying into the climate of victimization.. I’m a guy that works in an office with beaucoup women..(and more than a few womyn) Over the years I’ve been hit on by women, flashed, flirted with, kidded with sexual innuendo, propositioned… but I have not been victimized or sexually harassed.. When you put men and women together there’s sexual chemistry… That is not in itself a crime and we’d all do well to simply learn to say ‘No, thank you’ with a smile and let it go rather than making panic calls to the EEO because someone winked at you or checked out your butt in passing.

    As for the ongoing Female on Male rape thing, I’m going to take what I’m sure will be an unpopular stance and say I don’t think it was rape.. I’m defining rape as penetrating another persons body against their will. An aggressive act.Men can rape women.. Men can rape men… but this guy got ‘molested’ at worst.. ( if this Penthouse letter scenario ever really happened at all )

  9. I dunno, Darleen. I mean, it does sound pretty Penthouse Forum-y.

  10. I’d like to hear the “victim’s” view as to the magnitude of the pregnant woman’s crime. Would he have liked to see her do a 3-5 year stint in a State Prison for the horrible ‘crime’ of co-opting his member for a few minutes ?

  11. Ouroboros

    I buy it only because I’ve seen cases of older women predators that use alcohol and intimidation in order to have sex with minors. If I would classify those situations as “rape” I don’t know why I should find this story of a 19 y/o male and a 24 y/o female that much different.

    Men/boys who do come forward with such stories are in the same position that many female rape victims of years gone by faced … ridicule, disbelief, and hostility. Which only goes to make male rape victims feel they cannot report the crime.

    Vicious cycle.

  12. Ok it’s disturbing but I have a lot of counseling in my future in order to heal after the band-aid was ripped away is way too Oprah for me. I think he has issues.

  13. Ouroboros

    So if a 19 y/o woman wakes up to find a man having sex with her, should she just think “hey, he’s just using a few inches of my body, why put him in prison?” and go back to sleep?

  14. HF

    I think he has issues

    Rape will do that to people.

  15. Sex with a minor, definitely rape. But the guy was 19, right? I can’t decide for him, but he’ll only be whole when he decides that he ought to have done the right thing and told her to get off of him, cries or rape or no. It’s the way we’re expected to behave – if we can prevent ourselves from being victimized we do. We do not accept bribes. We do not accept blackmail. This applies to both men and women, and this situation particularly to this man. If it did really happen I sympathize with him as he was abused, but not raped. Helen is inadvertently trying to co-opt men into the victim culture. I won’t have it.

  16. RiverC

    How much emotional difference is there between a 17 y/o and a 19 y/o.

    No, I don’t want to see a VICTIM culture. However, it is just really wrong to think that a young male, still in his teens, cannot feel a sense of personal violation. He needs to deal with the betrayl without everyone else that should be helping him in that regard sniggering that he should have just laid back and enjoyed it.

  17. Old Joe got thrown in prison for doing this very thing – Pottipher’s wife? If the judicial system found against him – which it could – his job as a man is to insist upon his innocence and do the time, no matter unjustly it is given.

  18. I like how they charged the prostitute with a “doing business without a license” rap when you can’t get a license for the business she engaged in. I know it’s probably a common thing to do, but it’s still not right.

  19. Rape is not the same thing as violation. Firstly, real rape is almost ALWAYS a hate crime (in the real sense of the word, not in the Muslim sense) – that is, a man who loathes women using rape to control and damage her. Part of what makes rape the crime it is, is the issue of the child produced. Thus I’m going to have chivalrously and ridiculously and foolishly insist that it was in no way rape.

  20. Part of the ‘negatives’ of being a man, that goes along with ‘breadwinnin” and ‘fightin” and ‘leadin” is taking shit for everything. That is, you shoulder the blame and do the right thing, because mostly blame is a game that people play to avoid responsibility.

    Example. I’m at work, and some system fails. Now, I’m blamed for it because I’m the tech guy. Now, I could go out of my way to prove my innocence – that perhaps I keep getting distracted because of ridiculous requests and therefore I did not have the time to find or fix the error that caused the fault, etc. Or maybe the business decision – who to use as host – was glaringly bad.

    What SHOULD I DO? Take the blame and fix the problem. Because my job is not to be justly treated, my job is to keep the technical stuff running properly.

    If someone asks me if the host was probably at fault, I might say yes and that we should switch hosts, but maybe not. Depends.

  21. Yeah well he was repressing so well he really should just go back to doing that I think. Fake it til you make it brother.

  22. RiverC

    case in point:

    We prosecuted a woman (early 40s) who used to have local high schoolers come to her house (friends of her stepson) where she provided them with alcohol and pot. It became a kind of regular thing. Next step was sitting on the couch with the boys while they got high and caressing them, massaging their backs, kissing. Then she escalated into occassionally taking one inebriated boy or another (16, 17 year olds) off to another room and initiating sex. Sometimes the boys were so out of it they barely remembered, some protested but were too weak to put up a struggle. Her threats and intimidation to make them stay silent only worked for so long.

    I read a lot of the statements and follow up interviews with the boys in the case, including the psych interviews/evals of them. There were varying degrees, but all of them were pretty devastated at the betrayl, violation and had a lot of internalized guilt. They thought they were being “cool” to be hanging out with an adult that would allow them to drink and smoke pot, but then they started beating up on themselves when after all this hit the fan they realized it was just a ruse to get them into a place where they could be violated. I remember one boy was really angry because he had a steady girlfriend he had been faithful to and he felt somehow no matter how much he told this woman “no”, she forced herself on him and it made him feel dirty and unworthy of his girlfriend.

    Everyone might handle a violation in a different manner, but it doesn’t make the violation any less serious.

  23. How much emotional difference is there between a 17 y/o and a 19 y/o.

    Legally, one’s a minor and the other ain’t.

    Statutory rape is ‘rape only due to statutes’ i.e. acknowledging that the law is imprecise but the line must be drawn. For instance a 16 year old boy having sex with a 22 year old teacher? Not really rape, most likely. But it COULD be, so the law steps in and says its inappropriate. A ‘minor’ is a person without full rights and therefore may be taken advantage of; thus ‘statutory’.

    Maybe its just us guys being hard on each other, but I don’t see what the emotional state of the man has anything to do with rape. It was sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is not rape.

    Lord.

  24. I wonder if this was a race crime?

  25. I feel uncomfortable discussing this really.

  26. Which is why statutory rape laws exist, Darleen. These truly were minors, i.e, students. They were not in full command of their lives – under the protection of their parents still – and thus they were manipulated by a non minor. Not rape in the real sense but in statutory sense yes.

    This should not be considered official legal counsel since someone who actually knows something about law can step in and correct me.

  27. At least you’ve got your teeth, hf.

  28. Oh now we’re on the dentata thing again. I’m so bailing.

  29. How much prison time do people do for various fraud crimes, how much for crimes of threat and intimidation?

    Do we have laws that account for the specific ‘false’ charge of rape, or does this merely fall under general charges of ‘false statement to legal authorities’?

    Suppose for a moment that the young woman in question wasn’t already pregnant but instead becomes pregnant as a result of this one night rape/abuse. The nineteen year-old Marine now has a (provable) child he had no intention to father and probable legal responsibility to support that child and mother. Not rape? No big deal? Please.

  30. What SHOULD I DO? Take the blame and fix the problem.

    That’s great at work. Whining fixes nothing, nor does protest. But when “blame” takes the form of criminal prosecution, we’re in a whole different ballpark.

    Rape is not the same thing as violation.

    Rape is sex without consent. many jurisdictions now allow a woman (and theoretically a man, though I’ll die of shock if I ever see a woman thus prosecuted) to claim rape because she was intoxicated and therefore incapable of proper consent. So, it’s all great adult fun in the moment and tomorrow, it’s rape.

    Then there’s this case. And there’s a 16 year old boy “taking shit” that will ruin him for life.

  31. Sdferr,

    Do we have laws that account for the specific ‘false’ charge of rape, or does this merely fall under general charges of ‘false statement to legal authorities’?

    Does it matter when violations are virtually never prosecuted?

  32. #14 Darleen: No..That was my point exactly.. If the same scenario were played out Male on sleping female I dont think the woman would have a problem at all with the guy getting locked away… If they guy felt differently about locking away the female I’d say it’s because deep down he doesnt feel all that violated.. at least not in the same way..

  33. California Penal Code 261:

    261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
    person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
    circumstances:
    (1) Where a person is incapable, because of a mental disorder or
    developmental or physical disability, of giving legal consent, and
    this is known or reasonably should be known to the person committing
    the act. Notwithstanding the existence of a conservatorship pursuant
    to the provisions of the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (Part 1
    (commencing with Section 5000) of Division 5 of the Welfare and
    Institutions Code), the prosecuting attorney shall prove, as an
    element of the crime, that a mental disorder or developmental or
    physical disability rendered the alleged victim incapable of giving
    consent.
    (2) Where it is accomplished against a person’s will by means of
    force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful
    bodily injury on the person or another.
    (3) Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating
    or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this
    condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the
    accused.

    (4) Where a person is at the time unconscious of the nature of the
    act, and this is known to the accused. As used in this paragraph,
    “unconscious of the nature of the act” means incapable of resisting
    because the victim meets one of the following conditions:
    (A) Was unconscious or asleep.
    (B) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant that the act
    occurred.
    (C) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant of the
    essential characteristics of the act due to the perpetrator’s fraud
    in fact.
    (D) Was not aware, knowing, perceiving, or cognizant of the
    essential characteristics of the act due to the perpetrator’s
    fraudulent representation that the sexual penetration served a
    professional purpose when it served no professional purpose.
    (5) Where a person submits under the belief that the person
    committing the act is the victim’s spouse, and this belief is induced
    by any artifice, pretense, or concealment practiced by the accused,
    with intent to induce the belief.
    (6) Where the act is accomplished against the victim’s will by
    threatening to retaliate in the future against the victim
    or any
    other person, and there is a reasonable possibility that the
    perpetrator will execute the threat. As used in this paragraph,
    “threatening to retaliate” means a threat to kidnap or falsely
    imprison, or to inflict extreme pain, serious bodily injury, or
    death.
    (7) Where the act is accomplished against the victim’s will by
    threatening to use the authority of a public official to incarcerate,
    arrest, or deport the victim or another, and the victim has a
    reasonable belief that the perpetrator is a public official. As used
    in this paragraph, “public official” means a person employed by a
    governmental agency who has the authority, as part of that position,
    to incarcerate, arrest, or deport another. The perpetrator does not
    actually have to be a public official.
    (b) As used in this section, “duress” means a direct or implied
    threat of force, violence, danger, or retribution sufficient to
    coerce a reasonable person of ordinary susceptibilities to perform an
    act which otherwise would not have been performed, or acquiesce in
    an act to which one otherwise would not have submitted. The total
    circumstances, including the age of the victim, and his or her
    relationship to the defendant, are factors to consider in appraising
    the existence of duress.
    (c) As used in this section, “menace” means any threat,
    declaration, or act which shows an intention to inflict an injury
    upon another.
    ———————

    Sorry, RiverC, if the facts of the case are accurate, then it was rape. Period.

  34. some of those hostile commenters are men.

    Obviously they’re inauthentic and self-loathing. Or trying to score some of that feminist poon.

  35. Huh-huh-huh. Darleen said “penal.” Huh-huh-huh.

  36. Ok it’s disturbing but I have a lot of counseling in my future in order to heal after the band-aid was ripped away is way too Oprah for me. I think he has issues.

    I’m with HP about this. As a victim of sexual assault myself, I have a low tolerance for the “scarred for life” bullshit. But then, I’m a cold hearted bitch.

  37. Ok, so he didn’t resist. But was he prevented from resisting the second time? No. He decided not to because he was afraid of the law.

    Still not rape.

  38. Also – why didn’t he leave the room after the first incident? You’d think he’d go sleep in the car or something. I know that if I’d been “raped” in such a situation, no matter how drunk, I wouldn’t have simply rolled over and gone back to sleep.

  39. He decided not to because he was afraid of the law.

    That’s called “intimidation.”

    We all make snap internal judgments on what we can compromise on at that moment. Many times we later regret that decision because hindsight shows we could have choosen a different path. He compromised because he saw it the lesser of consequences than taking the chance that the bitch could clearly f*ck up his life.

    Unfortunately, that internalized guilt he hasn’t dealt with. He looks back with “what if”.

    I can understand that. It is kind of a survivors guilt, or the guilt a family member feels when a sibling/parent/child commits suicide. “Why didn’t I do [fill in the blank]?”

    It is NOT helpful to tell someone “suck it up, you were asking for it anyways.”

  40. Carin

    Why did the 17 y/os’ in my case keep going back to the house?

    The more a situation is ‘unreal’ the more one makes excuses for it.

    Did you see the case where people were in such shock at what they were witnessing, they couldn’t stop a crazed father from stomping his 2 y/o son to death on the side of the road?

  41. Pablo: at work it can result in firing. It’s not like its a ‘free operation’. It tends NOT to result in firing, but with the right boss it might ALWAYS result in firing.

    You know, forget this. It ain’t worth talking about. Keep your law and understanding thereof. I’m done here.

  42. Carin I do not think the guy was technically raped until the next day when she blackmailed him. This has happened to a couple of my friends. Usually the blackmail was “I will tell your girlfriend you cheated” or “I will tell the boss that you abused me”. The night before would be date rape if it was a chick.

  43. I denounce myself in advance of commenting.

    Look, there are some serious physiological and psychological difference between forced-penetration rape and gee-I-really-didn’t-wanna-but-I-still-had-a-hardon forced-engulfment by an ostensibly well-lubricated vagina.

    Still, I can’t bring myself to say that there was no foul, here.

  44. They seriously need to start giving hard time to people that falsely accusse someone of rape. Has happened to 2 of my friends.

  45. I can understand shock rendering you unable to act in the moment. Believe me, because shock played a part in my experience. But, the moment of shock passes, and then you get the hell out of there.

    I’m not saying I do, or don’t believe the guy. But, there is a far difference between what happened to this guy, and what happened to my room mate in college who was raped at gunpoint.

  46. Carin I would consider 20 years in prison about as much as a threat as someone holding a gun at me.

  47. CArin

    Rape, like theft, has varying degrees of seriousness. While there is a difference between having your purse snatched, and having it taken from you at knife/gunpoint, it still remains theft.

    Rape can be accomplished by brute force (ie gun/knife/fist) or stealth (GHB, rohypnol, and ketamine) or under duress (police officer raping a motorist by telling her “submit or I arrest you”), but it still remains rape.

    I just don’t know why we (as a whole) believe that men cannot be as affected by rape as women can be?

  48. Well, Proggs, you haven’t exactly been displaying a history of rational thought, so I believe ya.

  49. Seriously I rather be shot then get 20 years in jail, if you consider that irrational go ahead.

  50. You are not a man Carin you would not understand our plight.

  51. #51 Proggy

    Isn’t there a sandbox somewhere for you to go play in?

  52. I think it’s unfair that women get to touch boobies whenever they want to.

  53. I prefer guitar hero.

  54. I just don’t know why we (as a whole) believe that men cannot be as affected by rape as women can be?

    Because men are different?

    But, honestly, a guy needing therapy 20 years after something happening? Repressed memories? That’s the kinda stuff that makes me look askew at the situation.


  55. You are not a man Carin you would not understand our plight.

    There, there Proggs. It will be ok.

    Hush, my baby. Baby, don’t you cry…
    Momma’s gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
    Momma won’t let anyone dirty get through.
    Momma’s gonna wait up until you get in.
    Momma will always find out where you’ve been.
    Momma’s gonna keep Baby healthy and clean.

  56. Carin I just want to be a victim for once too. I mean everyone else is doing it!!!

  57. Comment by McGehee on 7/2 @ 11:49 am #
    I think it’s unfair that women get to touch boobies whenever they want to.

    Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 11:49 am #
    I prefer guitar hero.

    Unfortunate comment placement by Proggs ….

  58. I blame bush.

  59. But, honestly, a guy needing therapy 20 years after something happening?

    Everyone is different. And if he didn’t deal with it when it happened, then he has never dealt with it.

    I’ve seen the same thing in women who have been raped or suffered domestic violence.

    And we certainly see it in adults who were abused as kids (and the abuse was never revealed).

  60. Ok…full stop. A moment of clarification.

    I do not want anyone that has been the victim of a crime to be a Victim(tm) for all time. If we can ever get our shit together, we need to make sure REAL victims of REAL crime get whatever help they need to DEAL WITH IT and get on with their lives in a healthy manner.

    Whether the victim is male or female, adult or child, we need to help them move through a process of acknowledgement and acceptance then orienting to the future. They need to get beyond being a victim.

    Treating victims like sh*t is counterproductive.

  61. Darleen come on you know us men are not suppposed to feel any pain at all. I mean his only retaliation should have been to just be really really bad. Hey it has worked for me.

  62. Darleen,

    I just don’t know why we (as a whole) believe that men cannot be as affected by rape as women can be?

    Vagina worship. I suppose penis envy can ruin your day, but the vagina worship can screw up your life.

    Carin,

    But, honestly, a guy needing therapy 20 years after something happening? Repressed memories? That’s the kinda stuff that makes me look askew at the situation.

    I’m in the “Take a shower and get over it” camp, but not everyone is so pragmatic. Some people hang on to baggage better left behind, often by repressing it. It’s probably not what I would do, but failing to let go of it doesn’t change what happened.

  63. This story just has so many … strange variable. I guess – as an illustration – it’s a bit pointless. 20 years ago. Forgotten memory. Sharing a room. Him drunk, her pregnant. The whole thing just has a weird/strange vibe going for it.

    A guys there’s a moral out there, guys. Don’t get wasted in a bar, and offer a ride home to a pregnant girl (who you can’t drive home because you’re too drunk) and then have her share a motel room with you … yada yada yada.

  64. but failing to let go of it doesn’t change what happened.

    Thank you, Pablo!

  65. I mean, it’s like my sil who “remembered”, after 30 years, of being “touched” -once- by her babysitter’s boyfriend. She’s telling me the story, and giving me opportunities to fill in with “OH, that’s so horrible” … and just had a hard time playing the part. I’m thinking … 30 years ago … so what?

    But, I already told ya’ll I was a cold-hearted bitch.

    Of course, if someone did to MY children, what was done to me, I’d hunt ‘em down and kill them. I think THAT would affect me worse than when it happened to me.

  66. Yes Carin it is the guys fault. He “put himself out there”, “he was asking for it” and my personal favorite “look at the way he was dressed”

  67. but failing to let go of it doesn’t change what happened.

    But LIVING and existing and carrying on with your life means that it prolly didn’t (really) scar you for life.

  68. Proggs, I would give the same advice to a woman. Right along with the “don’t walk alone at night in dark alleys” unless you’ve got a concealed-carry license. It’s just common sense.

  69. But LIVING and existing and carrying on with your life means that it prolly didn’t (really) scar you for life.

    Um, no, Carin. There are a lot of people who carry on regardless of some of the most horrendous things they have gone through. It doesn’t make the thing “not serious” just because people can get good at compartmentalizing, rationalizing or repressing the experience.

  70. Darleen if you married a ginger then you shouldn’t have an opinion.

  71. As I tried to say earlier – in THIS case, there are just too many sketchy details for me to be horrified by it. That he remembered it 20 years later, is just another one of those aspects of the story that make me suspicious.

  72. Oh this is crap. He woke up “traumatized” with her on top of him (as he brags about being able to “hold an erection drunk or not for hours”-good grief), she finishes and he goes right back to sleep next to her. He doesn’t leave?! FOUR HOURS LATER she “does it again?” Horseshit. She has no marks, bruising, nothing, but she’s going to blackmail him with rape? Double horseshit.

    If he had said I’m a christian and don’t roll with premarital sex, a virgin, or saving myself, then fine. You can say he was violated (and even then HE DIDN’T LEAVE). A 19 yr old Marine and a 24 year old “college student?” You know why his story starts with I was raped instead of “Dear Penthouse?” Because she was probably the ugliest, nastiest broad in four states. He said he “frequented that bar often,” was “seen leaving with her,” and needed an excuse. Ugly Betty here may damn well have been “traumatizing,” but being too piss drunk to “coyote” yourself out of the perdicament ain’t rape.

  73. What was a 6 month pregnant chick doing at a bar anyway?

  74. He’s just mad because his beer goggles fell off and he found out she was a 50 footer.

  75. “hold an erection drunk or not for hours” hahahaha this is such a telling ‘guy’ thing to say.. “Yeah.. She was raping me but I was the best damn rape she ever had.. kept it up for hours.. Cuz that’s how I roll..”

  76. I’ve a hard time finding the guy’s story plausible.

    Now, if he had come up with yerpes or AIDS from that double encounter, then 20 years later he might still have some actionable problems, but in this case he should’ve kept his yap shut and forgot about it.

    Get over it!

  77. Yeah I am sure most rape victims like to think of themselves as “the best rape they ever had”

  78. Darleen, I mostly lurk around here and agree with you most of the time. But every guy in here was young and stupid (most of us are just accused of the latter now). This guy was a 19 year old Marine who was seen BY HIS BUDDIES leaving the bar with her.

    This is what happened at the barracks the next day…

    Marine Buddy: Dude…you banged that pig didn’t you!!
    (laughter)
    Marine: I did not!
    (everybody yells “bullshit!”)
    Marine: I didn’t I swear. Just drove her home!
    Marine Buddy: Dude! She was, like 12 months pregnant and slamming Val-U-Rite vodka all night!
    Marin: I slept in my truck!
    (“Liar! Bullshit!”)
    Marine Buddy: She was 400 pounds! She had six chins, her teeth were busted, and her face looked like a three day old pizza.
    Marine: Shut up!
    Marine Buddy: You sick fuck!
    (laughter)

    Marine: Didn’t touch her… (mumbles) I was raped.

    Marines: BWAAAAHHAAAAAAAAAAAA!

  79. I’m really interested in the responses to this. I was and am I guess really shocked at the tone of most of the comments over at Dr Helen’s. Even the comments here. I mean I expected a bunch of off-color jokes and snark, sure, that’s a given, I’m all for it. But personal attacks on a guy who nobody knew from adam, WTF?

    I just have the feeling that if this story was a little different, maybe if the girl had gotten pregnant by him while he was wasted and now he had to pay child support, the rape theory wouldn’t be such a problem.

    And the story would still sound like a Penthouse Forum letter. I’m sure the depositions from those kids Darleen was talking about did too.

  80. If we’re going to discuss the “issue” of male rape by women (w/o the personal attacks) then I think we need a story that doesn’t have so many holes. We have to accept things, in this account, that don’t seem completely plausible. So the snark, and attacks, are more because people simply aren’t accepting the story at face value.

  81. Carin,

    As far as the get up and run off notion, the original account mentioned that basically he sort of drifted into consciousness for a bit and then right back out, so at this point, it might not be easy for him to scamper off – being passed out and all.

    BRD

  82. In general, the other thing that amuses me is the idea that folks are so incredulous that a 19 year old in good shape would find it easy to become erect.

  83. I guess it is really true, the Boyz in the Hood are always hard.

  84. Also, Carin,

    To go back to his story, do note that he didn’t say he magically didn’t know it happened, but rather, he said “I’ve always tried to pretend it was nothing or play it off like an uncomfortable memory of a wild night that ended weird whenever the memory surfaced.”

  85. You know, I expect a bit of snark from time to time. And even if there is some stuff that sounds like bragging, you wouldn’t laugh as much if you actually knew male rape victims.

    And not just of females, but the male/male rape – where victims have horrible selfguilt and selfdoubt because they cannot understand why when their brain and their voices are saying “no no no no!” their penises act all on their own. And the perps smirk “see, you must really like this down deep, because you’re hard.”

    It’s like saying a girl can’t really be raped because you can’t thread a moving needle.

    physiologically, a man doesn’t even have to be conscious to have an erection/ejaculation.

  86. I do not think Carin has any idea how the guys command would take it if she even accused him of it. He would be automatically confined, given a courtmarshall, and then if proven innocent every freakin backround check he ever had he would have to put a check next to the box “have you ever been charged with a felony”. Then he would have to explain he was raped by a woman every 5 years his clearance expired. This isn’t even delving into the probable guilty conviction or plea deal his lawyers would try to talk him into.

  87. Carin that was a little too graphic.

  88. CArin

    I don’t think it has holes, per se. This isn’t Law n Order or CSI, where the script writers make things all neat, tidy and easy to understand (do you have any idea how now a lot of voir dire questions will ask potential jurors if they watched those programs? some people come away with a very unrealistic view of real life crime investigation).

    This is someone who had an experience under the influence … it may have seemed very unreal at the time and he has spent the better part of his life trying to compartmentalize it or rationalize it.

    Why does a woman who gets beat up a few times by her husband NOT leave on the first punch? Why does a man who suffers a scalp wound from a thrown can o’beans from his wife leave immediately?

    It’s really nice and easy to stand outside and tell people what they should have done, isn’t it?

  89. And as far as the “get over it” camp goes, I think that’s what the guy was trying to do.

    I’ve done some really stupid and fucked up things and found myself in some really bad situations. Had I been smarter or more sober, or smarter or, did I mention smarter?…nothing would have happened. I wouldn’t have as many stories or scars and Thanksgiving dinner with my brothers would be boring, but there’d also be a lot fewer, shall we say, “introspective moments” on the john or in the middle of the night.

    There are times when something you haven’t thought of in years comes back to bite you in the ass. Most of the time you can shake it off, sometimes you have to deal with it. Doesn’t make you a pussy if you have to deal with it.

  90. #79 Lamount

    Nice to know you were there.

  91. Let’s remember that this guy isn’t looking for a prosecution or even to shame the woman. He’s reached out to a shrink who has now related the story. Dude has issues, and he’s trying to deal with them is all.

  92. Rape is, I’m sure, awful and life changing, and yes the snark in here is due to this guy’s story being fairly ridiculous. I’m more likely to believe Michael J Fox was raped by his Aunt Vera in “Secret of my Success” than this guys tale.

    That said; I still think there’s an inherent differnce in opinion along gender lines here. Rape is about forced power and submission. So yes, 99% of men would agree that a man can be raped and then immediately pucker thinking of a scene from “Oz.” They just do not readily think of a woman being able to rape a man. It’s almost like the riddle in “Tin Cup” that none of the guys in the pro shop can answer (The surgeon is the boys mother) because of an underlying gender bias.

    That’s three fucking movie references people…I want some props.

  93. Well you didn’t reference Caddyshack so you lose points.

  94. What those flying monkies did to the Straw Man was unspeakable.

  95. Used to happen to me all the time …

  96. And I have no problem with snark or off color jokes, I don’t even have a problem if you don’t believe him. I do. I have my own reasons. You might think he’s making it up, you have yours.

    I just think the tone of most of the comments, at least up until I stopped reading them, was really vicious over there. Not what I expected. And I didn’t expect the “only penetration is rape” card to get played over here, it’s so… femenist

  97. Some people just wanna hoard all the victim cards….bastards.

  98. If the woman was drunk, and the guy took advantage of her, then told her he would “get her” if she fought him or told anyone, I doubt there would be debate over whether she was raped.

    Then, even though she had no physical damage, there would be no debate the the guy should go to jail.

    Reading the comments of those telling the guy to “suck it up”, is it any wonder our family court system is so biased against the fathers? The double standard applied to supposedly equal genders under the law is disconcerting.

  99. #79 Lamont: This guy could be someone I know because I’ve sure seen your scenario played out word for word in army units I was in… Hahahaha.. its spot on.

  100. “What those flying monkies did to the Straw Man was unspeakable.” The part that was left on the editing room floor was even more unspeakable (so you’ll have to buy the unrated director cut)

  101. “Used to happen to me all the time …”

    Me too… when I was young… Nowdays I mostly spend my time crawling around looking for all those wadded up scraps of paper with their telephone numbers that I casually tossed away the next day..

  102. I think the perceived double standard is simply because most men — for one reason or another — just can’t envision it happening to them.

    The idea that any woman would want to have sex with me while I was out-cold drunk, is purely laughable. I’ve met damn few who wanted to have sex with me when I was sober, bathed, and winning the cocktail party.

  103. I’ve met damn few who wanted to have sex with me when I was sober, bathed, and winning the cocktail party.

    They all want to have sex with you McGehee, it’s just that you pure studliness can be intimidating to the average woman.

  104. ahh, here’s an r, stick it where it belongs…

  105. Lost Cookies: I still say it’s a gender thing. Myself and all the men I know were raised as young boys to have a sort of subdued responsibility for all girls/women (which pisses the feminists off to no end). I was raised to say, yes ma’am, pull out chairs, open doors, never be agressive, but rather protective of girls/women, etc. At a later age I didn’t need to be told “no means no.”

    When I was young Dad said, ‘never get into a car with strange MEN, here’s our password…” Later when I got the “talk,” there was no last chapter that started, “One more thing son, a woman CAN rape a man and here’s how that works…” Just does’t occur to most men at all, so when a man hears “woman rapes man” it’s always going to get a raised eyebrow. No one is throwing stones at Darleen’s overall argument, just that this guy’s story is a pretty weak beam to use to support it.

    Lee: You’re kind of using the, “if a republican said that all hell would break loose” argument and I agree. But that’s libealism taking advatage of a “I don’t give a shit less it happens to me society.” The fact is whether this Marine’s 20 year old story is true or not, the pregnant woman could have seen him across the bar, asked his name, left on her own, STILL accused him of rape the next day and ruined his whole life. And that debate is a different kettle of fish.

  106. Lee, I know — but I’m even more studly when I’m sprawled out, slobberingly unconscious and soiling myself. I just can’t win.

  107. The word ‘rape’ is not appropriate for this scenario. Rape is just that, a violent, hateful act that degrades the victim and leaves permanent mental (and most times, physical) scars. ‘Rape’, the term, shouldn’t be dumbed down, weakened, so as to lose it’s meaning.

    There’s no legal ‘degree’ of rape; if there were, this would be the lowest level, 3rd degree rape.

    Or, manspoliation? mandalized? was he mansacked? or manutalized?

    /ducks

  108. If you read the California law Darleen cited above serr8d your plaint is to late, many years too late I’d bet. How on earth would you go about changing that law?

  109. You’re kind of using the, “if a republican said that all hell would break loose” argument and I agree. But that’s libealism taking advatage of a “I don’t give a shit less it happens to me society.”

    Actually, I’m kind of using the “It’s nonsense that only republicans are racist and it’s impossible for Blacks to be” argument.

    If you by the premise, justice cannot be served.

  110. Or, buy the premise…whatever.

  111. No one is throwing stones at Darleen’s overall argument, just that this guy’s story is a pretty weak beam to use to support it

    Exactly. And, 17 years plus alcoholic haze can turn a “I shouldn’t have done that” bad memory into something different. That’s just another off-key aspect to this story.

    I mean, I did some things I regret when I was really drunk (I once passed out behind the Fiji house) – but besides the barest of details I honestly couldn’t tell you much about that night. Except, I didn’t have sex with anyone. If I had, though, I probably wouldn’t be able to tell you much of anything about the event. Whether I consented, or raped the man myself.

  112. Ouroboros

    “So if a 19 y/o woman wakes up to find a man having sex with her, should she just think “hey, he’s just using a few inches of my body, why put him in prison?” and go back to sleep?”

    I hate to reveal what a dirty old man I am, but I find myself WAFFLING on the answer to that question…

    heh.

  113. Let me help your dilemma LostDog.

    Just replace a few inches of that 19 y/o’s vagina with a few inches of your anus.

  114. serr8d,

    The word has been dumded down. If there was intercourse, and she says it’s rape, then it was, even if she was screaming ‘Pump my pussy, Stallion!’ throughout.

  115. #108 Serr8d

    I’m going to get a little gross now

    What if you passed out at a party and woke up to find yourself being anally copulated and the guy also was doing a reach around and, voila, you’re hard AND you ejaculate.

    Since you “enjoyed it”, does that mean it’s not rape? It wasn’t violent and no physical harm was done.

    The law is quite straight forward … if you do not or CANNOT give consent to sexual intercourse, it is rape. If your consent is coerced, it is rape.

    If you go home drunk and pass out on the couch while leaving your front door open, it doesn’t give a robber who walks in and makes off with your plasma tv a legal “he asked for it” defense.

  116. Lee: Two things. “A few inches of your anus” means gun point/ strap on/ Kathy Bates in Misery. Bring the goal posts back over here pronto.

    Second, I was completely agreeing with the “justice can’t be served agrgument.” Just think it’s a seperate agrgument. Unlike an unfounded charge of rape, an unfounded charge of racial hate speech can’t ruin your life and land you in prison…yet…unless you live in Canada…or Britain…or pretty much anywhere in western civilization outside the US.

  117. There’s an interesting thought.

    Keep the story the same, but it is a transgender, part way through the process(a recent operation replacing the role of pregnant and therefor physically unassailable), and he woke up to oral sex being preformed on him by someone with a five o’clock shadow. He leaves at that point,
    still very drunk, but doesn’t tell any one for fear of the marine barracks hazing he will get.

    Is it rape?

  118. lee

    if it is oral copulation, it is sexual assault, not rape.

    And there was a case in Norway where a guy passed out on a couch and awoke to find a woman orally copulating him while her boyfriend was taking pictures.

    The couple was charged and convicted, IIRC.

  119. Darleen, now your talking about one MAN forcing buttsex on another unconscious MAN. No one in here has or would argue that “that’s not rape.”

    Please help lee with the goal posts.

  120. Or in keeping with current affairs.. the pregnant chick is actually the one in the news that looks and lives as a guy but in fact has female reproductive organs intact.. So narrative now goes “the young drunken marine shared a motel room with a fat drunken guy he met at a bar because they were too drunk to drive home.. but wakes up to find aforemention fat guy is actually pregnant transgendered guy/girl ridin him like a mechanical bull…

    I dont know where this is going but it’s getting creepier and creepier..

    No wait.. Let’s make the pregnant guy/girl a hermaphrodite instead..

  121. lamont

    So a man can anally rape another man while making the victim hard, even to the point of orgasm and you have no problem calling that rape.

    But a woman can’t do that to a man?

    WHO is moving the goal posts? Look at the definition of RAPE. Sexual intercourse without consent.

  122. Darleen, you got there first.

    Better too, damn it.

    Lee: Two things. “A few inches of your anus” means gun point/ strap on/ Kathy Bates in Misery.

    You can’t imagine a 19 y/o woman, waking up to the Lost Dog riding her like a cowboy in a B western stampede scene, feeling the exact same way?

    It’s nothin Mame, just using a few inches…go back to sleep.

    Sorry, it’s not goal post moving, just saying a safety is a safety on both ends(forgive me) of the field.

  123. Lee: Switching the gender changes it only in the way we’re conditioned to see rape. If he comes out 20 years later and says a man raped/sexually assaulted me, we give it at least a bit more consideration and maybe he gets 15 minutes on Oprah. But 20 years later he says a pregnant woman did it and the story he tells is full of holes, inconsistencies, and boner bravado…

    …I guess you go to Dr. Helen.

  124. Now, add into the story that after he awoke to finding the man schtupping him from behind, the guy threatened to spread homosexual rumors about him unless he went along with it. So, he lets him finish, and then rolls over and goes back to sleep (instead of leaving) because he was so tired/drunk. So, in the morning, he wakes up to find the guy doing it again … upon which he represses the entire memory for 17 years.

  125. Ourobors- what if you wake up and see a woman riding another woman doggy style?

    Oh, wait. Now we HAVE arrived at the Penthouse forum…

  126. Ouroboros

    I really think “pregnant” is irrelevant, except where the guy knew it would bolster the chick’s credibility to a “rape” charge. While the kid thought he was being a hero helping out a helpless pregger woman, the circumstance than turned to be against him and he knew it.

    Look up the case of Joseph Evan Robinson, former LAPD, now doing 25 to life for three rapes he committed while on duty. Cuz, like he told the gals he was arresting – then raping – “no one is going to believe you. I’m a police officer and you’re a whore.”

  127. “Just replace a few inches of that 19 y/o’s vagina with a few inches of your anus.”

    lee –

    If only my dick would reach my ass.

    I’ve had my fun and left the game long, long ago, grumpster. And I think the key word there was “WAFFLING”.

    Get a grip. It’s bad manners to be a such a dickweed. This IS PW, after all. I doubt I would be much interested in this place if I was interested in 19 year old vaginas. And besides, I hate it when they wake up in the morning and ask me to help them with their homework!

    Ya think?

  128. Of course a woman can anally rape a man! Who’d be dumb enough to say, “That’s impossible. Everyone knows male butt kung fu is too strong.”

    I said no one has a beef with your overall position. I just think THIS guy’s story is crap. That’s all.

    Good grief.

  129. @ #121-

    Sorry for the creepy thought exercise Ouroboros.

    I denounce myself, and deny myself whimsy for the rest of the day.

  130. CArin

    Wish I could show you some “drunk at party” rape cases where the women didn’t leave. More often than not, they find the first instance so ‘unreal’ they figure it can’t be real. Until the 2nd or 3rd time (or man) comes into the room and she’s sober enough (or recovering from GHB) to understand…YES, it is real.

    Remember this case?

  131. Lost Dog, the only thing a 20 y/o girl can do for me is introduce me to her 50 y/o mother.;)

  132. Lamont

    I just come from background where his story would get serious consideration (obviously he isn’t asking for prosecution because statute of limitations has run out) because I’ve seen similar cases more than I care to.

  133. And Darleen, stop with the, “Look at the LAPD this,” and the,”Dude on dude butt rape party scenarios” that (what the hell kinda parties are you going to anyway?). None of that has jack shit to do with THIS guys hokey story.

    God’s balls, can’t you tell when someone is trying to agree with the most important parts of your argument?

    If that high horse of yours gets any farther off the ground you’re gonna need a damn soap box to get down ;)

  134. Ok, sorry Darleen. Saw your post after my last (kinda snarky) one. I think we’re on the same page.

  135. In one case the marine’s skin cells (and possibly his semen) are in the womans vagina. This could be used as evidence against him. No damage to her person need be found.
    In the other case, some other guy’s skin cells (and possibly his semen) are in the Marine’s anus, plus the probable tearing of capillaries and such. This would stand as evidence against the other guy. Thus the scenarios are somewhat imbalanced.

  136. Lamont

    Ok, I get that YMMV with regard to this guy’s credibility. I’m just saying you’d be shocked at the stuff that never makes the papers.

    And I’m only talking about my small corner of So. Cal.

  137. Sdferr

    just a FYI … rape kits are done on both accused and accuser. At that point, dna just establishes that intercourse took place between those too people (yes, female dna will be recovered from the male’s body)

  138. too = two

    argh

  139. Darleen, I was born, raised, and live in Texas. California (while beautiful) is surely one of the reasons Texas has kept our right to succeed from the Union firmly planted in our constitution.

  140. But Dna doesn’t determine initiation in the male/female case, whereas the male/male anal intercourse would seem to indicate penetrator/penetratee with some certainty wouldn’t it?

  141. Darleen, I totally understand that people get drugged and raped, or get drunk and raped while they cannot give consent. I totally get that. I know. I just have doubts on HIS story. I’m sure if it happened last week, it would get serious consideration, I just have no idea how you would resolve the he said/she said. Since it’s such a snafu legally, as a PARENT, my interest revolves around how to teach a child not to end up in such a situation. Either as the male or female. And, when you do that, you start sounding like you’re blaming the victim.

    But, in reality, the victim put them self in a position where such a thing could happen. They may have the law on their side, but I don’t think that matters much at the moment you are being raped.

  142. Lamont,
    But 20 years later he says a pregnant woman did it and the story he tells is full of holes, inconsistencies, and boner bravado…

    I find the story conceivable, and understand how feeling powerless against the unwanted sexual aggression and fear(of jail) could mess up a guys self image, changing him forever.

    Hand me a moron card, and seize my man card if you must, but I think it’s a mistake to trivialize what happened to this guy. Especially in these days of raging STDs and paternity suits.

  143. Now that I think about it, maybe not, as we could postulate the marine could do to the other guy what he claims the woman had done to him. My apologies, objection withdrawn.

  144. Lamonty

    I was born in Los Angeles, raised and live in So. Cal. There’s a lot I love of this area … the crime we have and the caliber of criminals – not so much.

    But there are those of us that keep our eye on trying to improve the area, one small bit at a time.

  145. Heck, we had a big GHB case here in Michigan where a girl DIED. The rapist hadn’t yet honed his skills and graduated right to murderer.

  146. I think this whole comment thread illustrates something fundamental about the difference in how men perceive sex in general and rape in particular as opposed to women.

    I find it interesting that the strongest words supporting the man’s story are from a woman… much like I hear how minorities are, or would be or should be offended by this or that from a white liberal that thinks he knows what minorities feel… (no insult intended here, just an observation)

    I think the very word ‘rape’ evokes strong violent images in a woman’s mind that men can understand intellectually but don’t ‘feel’ as deeply.. I think Darleen is projecting her own strong feelings about rape onto the marine protagonist and imagining “he was used without his consent.. raped.. I would be horrified so I can understand how he was horrified”.. but in general that’s just not how guys are wired..

    The double standard is real and exists in part because men and women are different in how they perceive the world.. How many men have seemingly lacked compassion for a rape victim that they perceived ‘had asked for it” or dismiss a rape as “it was just sex.. get over it..no big deal.”? I think men in general have a problem perceiving male/female sexual intercourse as rape perpetuated against them… The closest a male can come to appreciating a woman’s feelings toward rape would be to consider forced anal rape by another male.. or any unexpected homosexual contact (in the case of a hetro male).. That would be a scenario where the male victim would feel the shame and anger.. a surprise hetro contact.. not so much..

    Consider that (I’m guessing here) any woman that has been raped would love to see her attacker rot in jail or worse.. You (rightly) don’t see a lot of mercy from the victims.. I doubt many men that have ever experienced anything remotely like the marine story ever contacted authorities or made an issue of it… Maybe vow to themselves never to drink tequila again.. but that’s about it..

    Just some thoughts on the thread..

  147. Since it’s such a snafu legally, as a PARENT, my interest revolves around how to teach a child not to end up in such a situation. Either as the male or female. And, when you do that, you start sounding like you’re blaming the victim.

    That is a conundrum, CArin. We as parents have to walk a fine line between teaching our kids a sense of duty, honor and being ready to help other people in need, and trying to look out for those who make it their raison d’etre to exploit our kids values.

    My husband sees a raggedy panhandler and he’s reaching into his pocket for any spare change. Me, I see someone who is either going to take that change and use it for drugs/booze, or is just running a scam and changes out of the raggedy costume later with enough taxfree money to get through the next few days.

    We have to teach our kids both NOT to hitchhike and to NOT pick up hitchhikers.

    The fine line between healthy skepticism and paranoia.

  148. What those flying monkies did to the Straw Man was unspeakable.

    Not to mention the Telebubby on Furry violence you posted on a while back.

  149. My husband doesn’t understand why physical assault (where someone is seriously hurt) doesn’t rank higher on the crime scale than rape (where someone isn’t injured.) I would say that many guys don’t “get it” because they view sex so differently than women.

    I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them? At base, I think THIS is why you see so many comments like you do. Many guys would simply think – well, ok … didn’t plan it, but there it is.

    Honestly, I should just go lift weights. But, here I go again … into the fray …

  150. We have to teach our kids both NOT to hitchhike and to NOT pick up hitchhikers.

    Well, yea. Of course. You teach a boy that you don’t have sex with a drunk girl (or even take a drunk girl into your room w/o witnesses) and you teach your daughters not to get drunk or go out w/o surrounding them selves with people they trust.

  151. Ouroboros

    I, in general, agree with you. But my supportive words (if not directly for the young man, at least for the fact his story is NOT unusual) are passion driven not so much as a projection on rape, but a kind of justice button where it concerns the exploitation of one person against the other. Especially when the perp cuts off any attempt that the vic may try in ameliorating the situation.

    If you want to see me really get my blood up, let’s talk about looting.

    Yes, I do think generally men and women view sex differently. The sexes have very different expectations of sex. Men usually can compartmentalize sex better than women (the whole “what goes on in Vegas” schtick). Yet men can and do, experience deep feelings of betrayl and mistrust in any number of situations. If “male/female” sex was just no big deal, then a lot of men wouldn’t be going just a little berserk catching their wife/girlfriend cheating on them.

  152. was he mansacked?

    ROFLMAO!!

  153. I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them?

    Well, the Hollywood culture would make you think it would be cool with all men, but there are alot of honest men that would be horrified.

    That’s why, for the most part, we try and avoid passing out in a motel room with strange women.

  154. #150 Carin

    I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them?

    Which is just a variation on a theme wherein lots of male commenters, when reading a case of a ‘hot’ woman teacher arrested for illegal sex with her minor male students say “hell, I wish she had been MY teacher!”

    It is the difference between fantasy and reality. Women gobbleup by truckload “Romance” novels aka bodice rippers … female p0rn full of ravished women. Yet not one of them would like to experience such a situation in real life.

  155. Darleen, I think that reach around scenario deserves a post of its own.

  156. Darleen,

    Never been to SoCal, but in college we used to spend Christmas/spring breaks at a friends place on Lake Donner (ski Sugar Bowl, loose our ass in Reno and whatnot). Some of the most amazing country I’ve ever seen.

    Then we road tripped to San Fran one day and drove to the warf to get something to eat. Here’s all these people in business attire, sittin on the wall, eatin their lunch. “That’s awesome” I thought. “I could totally live here.” The next second I saw a dude in a black, spandex, ASSLESS leotard coming down the sidewalk on rollerskates (hand to God). None of those hundreds of people batted an eye.

    Didn’t…didn’t really much think I could live there after that (tho I’m sure he was a pleasant enough fellow).

  157. “Lost Dog, the only thing a 20 y/o girl can do for me is introduce me to her 50 y/o mother.;)”

    NOW I think we’re on the same page. My problem, though, is that, like a dog catching a car, I’m not sure I would know what to do with it anymore…

  158. “Darleen, I think that reach around scenario deserves a post of its own.”

    Oops! There goes another friggin’ keyboard!

    But I have to admit, Dan, that’s a great idea.

    “Reach Around”.

    What a great name for a band…

  159. Whoa. Y’all are all being all rated R in here and stuff.

  160. Dan,

    Sorry. What I meant to say was: “Oops! There goes another friggin’ keyboard, you ah-so funny ritter plick!”

  161. My problem, though, is that, like a dog catching a car, I’m not sure I would know what to do with it anymore…

    I think you’re supposed to eat a blue pill, then sit in a barn with six other guys and sing.

    There’s a possibility I’m confused…

  162. “Viva…Viii-agra…”

    No, I think that’s the song, so that must be it…

  163. Oh. And before I say sayanora, I just wanted to ask lee if he knows the difference between a blonde and a refrigerator (I love blondes, by the way)?

    I hope you do, because the answer is WAY beyond the borders of taste that even I would break through on PW. (Well….maybe it is, maybe it isn’t).

    I am just trying to bait someone who knows the answer into revealing that I am not the only one here with a very twisted sense of humor….

  164. “I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them?”

    Depends on the woman. Ouroboros and I were sorta making this point (I think a little tongue in cheek). Rape is rape is rape. Fine. Agreed 100%. We didn’t buy this guys story that’s all.

    But when Ouroboros says “waffling on the answer…” Remember Debra La Fave (smoking hot teacher/ student sex). Around women in public guys shook their head and said “Awful, just awful. What a betrayal of trust.” At the bar with the guys (especially single ones) all you heard was, “The other boys at that school are gonna build a friggin shrine to that kid. He’s gonna be like the young Henry in Goodfellas.”

    It’s a guy thing and I imagine it changes a helluva lot once you have kids of your own.

    Some things are rape. Cut and dry. Some things kind of get an eye roll.

  165. And lee?

    I’ve sat in barns with more than six musicians, but if I remember correctly, the pill I took was purple, and I snorted it..

    And then we sang that Grateful Dead song: “New Purple Boogers”.

    “Those were the days my friend…” as Melanie used to wail at me from that HUGE butt….

  166. No, Lost dog. I don’t know the difference between a blond and a refrigerator.

    Here’s one for you:

    What color is air?

    (if you didn’t answer “blond”, you are one!)

  167. Lamontyoubigdummy on 7/2 @ 5:10 pm #

    “I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them?”

    Depends on the woman.”

    No shit, Sherlock!

    I certainly would react differently to…say, Sarah Roemer, than I would to Rosie O’Donnell. Rosie would be a definite rape.

    Sarah? God! I wish I was twenty five and woke up to find her on top of me.

    But don’t get the wrong idea. She’d probably want help with her homework, too.

  168. “(if you didn’t answer “blond”, you are one!)”

    Yup. How’d you know?

    Is it because I don’t fart when you take your meat out?

    GOD! I can’t believe I am actually going to post this! But I am….

    See you guys tommorrow. Gotta go hang with my son.

  169. OOC! OOC! ALERT!

    What I meant was ” because I DO …” OH NEVER MIND!

    See youse later.

    Tommorow we can discuss the difference between a washing machine and a blonde. I have no more time left for philosophy right now…

  170. “Melanie used to wail ..”

    As I recall she’d also wail,

    “I gotta brand new pair of roller skates.. You got a brand new key..”

    (to kinda bring the conversation back around to sex symbolism in music..)

  171. I think the problem with the whole argument, the whole situation, is that it is playing on fear. We do not and should not base our law on fear.

    Basically everyone advancing the argument is like, “Imagine… [insert horrible scenario happening to you]”

    To me, it is not relevant to the point at all. I don’t buy the story, and I think Helen has been spending more and more of her time coddling men because they often get the short end of the stick legally.

    And frankly, I don’t care if its justified or not. Whenever I read one of those ‘divorce court’ type threads she throws out, all I see is a bunch of bitter men carping about what they’ve lost. So dwelling on and digging up your grievances is *good*?

    I personally think that the word ‘rape’ should be reserved for a particular crime against women – and that other terms may be used for unlawful / forced intercourse. But not rape. It is the potential for the child that makes the difference in my book.

    But I think I’m in the minority here.

    That’s fine.

    The misapplication and misdefinition of the term is emasculating – the true horror of rape is that the woman is forced to bear a child against her will, whose father is a violent, wicked person.

    Calling simple forced intercourse of any kind rape downplays the viciousness of what I would regard as the real crime.

    But obviously, I must be a feminist.

  172. I personally think that the word ‘rape’ should be reserved for a particular crime against women – and that other terms may be used for unlawful / forced intercourse. But not rape. It is the potential for the child that makes the difference in my book.
    [...]
    The misapplication and misdefinition of the term is emasculating – the true horror of rape is that the woman is forced to bear a child against her will, whose father is a violent, wicked person.

    I have never heard rape defined on those terms before.

    Is it rape in your book if a girl too young to conceive is forced to have sexual intercourse?

  173. I mean, honestly – how many guys here (especially at the age of 19) wouldn’t kind of think it was cool to wake up and see a woman ‘on’ them?

    What’s my relation to her? If it’s someone I’m in a relationship with, wonderful! Otherwise, it’d probably be beyond creepy.

  174. Carin-

    A guys there’s a moral out there, guys. Don’t get wasted in a bar, and offer a ride home to a pregnant girl (who you can’t drive home because you’re too drunk) and then have her share a motel room with you … yada yada yada.

    I’ll be sure to tell that same story to the next drunken little college ‘ho’ impressed by my hillbilly bankroll when she’s ‘pretty sure’ that she said “no”…

  175. And frankly, I don’t care if its justified or not. Whenever I read one of those ‘divorce court’ type threads she throws out, all I see is a bunch of bitter men carping about what they’ve lost. So dwelling on and digging up your grievances is *good*?

    Now, let’s suppose that those “grievances” over what you’ve “lost” are your children.

    Calling simple forced intercourse of any kind rape downplays the viciousness of what I would regard as the real crime.

    But obviously, I must be a feminist.

    No, because they keep coming up with new definitions of “forced” to call rape. But hey, we can always build more prisons, right? God bless America…

  176. RiverC:

    How exactly is “forced intercourse” not rape?

    What kind of rape apologia is this you are espousing?

    Fascinating and grossly disgusting argument to make an excuse for a female rapist.

  177. RiverC said: “…the guy was 19, right? I can’t decide for him, but he’ll only be whole when he decides that he ought to have done the right thing and told her to get off of him, cries or rape or no.”

    Yeah, going to prison for a rapist who threatened me with a false rape allegation is “the right thing.” This is what is called “victim-blaming.” Not a very moral position for a someone who claims to walk in Christ’s footsteps. How about we blame the woman who raped me instead of me? Okay?

    RiverC said: “It’s the way we’re expected to behave – if we can prevent ourselves from being victimized we do. We do not accept bribes. We do not accept blackmail. This applies to both men and women, and this situation particularly to this man.”

    Again, so going to prison is better? This is really your argument? When you are confronted with the same situation, let me know how that works out for you. Again, you are transferring blame for the rape from the rapist to the person attacked.

    RiverC said: “If it did really happen I sympathize with him as he was abused, but not raped. Helen is inadvertently trying to co-opt men into the victim culture. I won’t have it.”

    Umm, rape is forcing someone into sexual activity against their will. In this case, she masturbated me to an erection while passed out and then did whatever she wanted while I was passed out. I awoke briefly but was still under the influence of alcohol and unable to consent or force her off (let alone leave the room like a clueless commenter above said I should have done). Then, I awoke again hours later, no longer under the influence to find her on me again (assuming she even got off me earlier) only then to be ordered into silence and told to be still or be accused of raping her. She held that over my head for hours and still expected a ride home. I very quickly went into denial about what happened as a coping mechanism, until recently when it resurfaced.

    You are making excuses for my rapist simply because she has a vagina and I have a penis. I am not a part of any “victim culture.” I simply talked about my experience because I know it will help another man seek help sooner than I did. And given some of the private emails I’ve received since talking publicly, there are plenty of men out there who’ve been pushed into a similar situation. Glad that you are so much more of man than I that it wouldn’t happen to you or affect you negatively if it did. That’s just fabulous. However, it didn’t happen to you and it has helped me get past it by no longer “owning” it as a secret. I released it and I am healing from it. 17 years of pretending did not make it go away. Dealing with it head-on as I am now, like a mature adult, is helping me process my emotions and get on with living my life again.

  178. once a week i use a roller skate as my exercise ~`.

  179. roller skating is my sport, this sport is very enjoyable and is a form of exercise too';.

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