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What McChimpler hath wrought [Karl]

The title of Prof. Andrew J. Bacevich’s op-ed in the Boston Globe is actually “What Bush hath wrought,” but I figure that was the editing process at work.

He lists a parade of would be horribles, but the third item should suffice to explain the Bacevich worldview:

Affirmed – despite the catastrophe of Sept. 11, 2001 – that the primary role of the Department of Defense is not defense, but power projection

The key word there is “despite,” siginfying that the US proviked the 9/11 attacks with our hegemony.  Bacevich either does not know or does not care that two of the 19 Islamists who took part in 9/11 attacks said in videotaped statements that their actions were inspired by an urge to avenge the suffering of Muslims in Bosnia and Chechnya.  These are people who do not see the world the same way as Bacevich does.  It is sadly ironic that so many of those who demand that the US understand its enemies tend to have put no effort into it themselves.

Don Surber has an item-by-item response to the entire list.  Dean Barnett notes that Bacevich’s list of the Bush legacy leaves out things like the absence of a major terror attack on US soil these past years ( to which he could have added disarming Libya of its WMDs and eviciting Syria from Lebanon, among other items).  Jonah Goldberg, while not responding Bacevich, notes in his latest column just how much of the Bush legacy actually started before Bush was sworn into office — including detaining Haitian refugees at Guantanamo Bay with less due process than we give captured enemy combatants.

(h/t Memeorandum.)

105 Replies to “What McChimpler hath wrought [Karl]”

  1. happyfeet says:

    I always want to know what professors think. They really bring a lot to the discussion I think. Them and journalists. It’s an embarrassment of riches, our political commentary, days are.

  2. sashal says:

    i have read the conservative professor Bacevich piece.
    Excellent!
    Surber and Barnett criticizing?
    They do not even deserve to drink the water washed from prof. feet.

    Also check the response from Bainbridge.

    and that bogus argument that nothing happened since 9/11 on the territory of USA proves what ? Nothing, intelligent people should not even apply that.
    btw, professor Bacevich’ son died in Iraq fighting in the WOT.

  3. lee says:

    I just hope that what Bush has wrought will get us through the next four years.

    Pray that Iraq becomes the constitutional republic she is capable of.

  4. happyfeet says:

    See? Bracevich really challenged sashal to look at things in a new way. It’s really beautiful when you get to see it in real time like that.

  5. happyfeet says:

    Oh. *Bacevich* … And his son would still be alive today if he had only been guarding mass transit in Toledo from teh terrorisms like he should have been.

  6. Major John says:

    Ah, the old “absolute moral authority” card comes out from the grip of Mother Sheehan.

  7. Rusty says:

    Perhaps not sash, but I think it’s better to fight them over there rather than here. Don’t you? Besides, it has always been a sound military strategy to make your enemy fight for his own territory rather than you having to fight for yours. ie; take the fight to his back yard.
    Bush has done a lot of things wrong, but the war on terror isn’t one of them.

    Bacevich’s son deserves our everlasting gratitude.

  8. Techie says:

    Face it, if we had army patrols around Toledo’s bus depot, we’d be hearing the same “FASCISTS!!!!!!” cries that we do today.

  9. sashal says:

    rusty, what territory terrorists have? where is their backyard ?

  10. happyfeet says:

    It ain’t Toledo.

  11. Techie says:

    The comments at the LATimes for Jonah’s article. Yould think these people were living under the Third Reich, by the way they see our omnipotent, all-malovelent Bushitler

  12. I always want to know what professors think.

    to be fair, he was in the military many years and I remember reading an article by him back in 2005 that was fairly reasonable, but he kinda went off the deep end after his son died.

  13. lee says:

    #9- sashal, you are ridicules.

    You really don’t get the concept that our trained military is fighting in Afghanistan/ Iraq against the people that want to wage war here in the continental US against civilians?

    Please listen more, speak less. You need to learn stuff…

  14. Darleen says:

    Sashal

    Come ON, man. There wasn’t a reasonable person who witnessed 9/11 that didn’t think the next major attack would come soon without something radical to oppose the perps

    You ignore that plots have been foiled and the fight taken over there keeping mainland America safe at your own peril.
    —————
    I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
    The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
    The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
    O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
    But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
    But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
    But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
    The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
    O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.

    Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
    An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
    Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
    But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
    While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
    But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
    There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
    O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.

    You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
    We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
    But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

    Rudyard Kipling
    ——————
    The more things change the more they stay the same.

    Fuck you, sashal.

  15. wishbone says:

    I just checked and Bush isn’t running for anything this year. Just so all the leftards know. It’s IN THE CONSTITUTION just like that gun thing that’s been in the news. REVOLUTIONARY…

    Robert Mugabe did run for office, though, if any of you want to know what actual in-the-flesh tyranny looks like.

  16. narciso says:

    We can see the evolution in Bacevich’s thinking from this piece:href Mind you this was coming to press, right around the time that Kandahar was falling to the coalition; it does indicate his
    inpatience even then. How the expeditions in Afghanistan and Iraq prove American militarism is quite a stretch. There were signs of this orientation years ago; back during the previous ‘quagmire’ in Central America,
    when as a young officer he argued against continued support for the Salvadoran regime; in terms that echo what was said of the Iraqi forces in the pre-surge period.This interestingly
    seemed out of character, which his scholarly work; on suppressing the Moro insurrection in the Phillipines, seems to contradict. Now it’s been nearly seven years since the last attack on America. In the previous instance, it would have seemed in the winter of 2000; that the minimalist policy of the Clinton administration has succeeded; they had dealt with the
    turmoil in Bosnia and Kosovo, where their inaction had actually radicalized
    a generation of jihadist from the Mecca
    boy; Al Midhar & Al Hazmi, to Daniel Pearl’s kidnapper, Saeed Omar Sheik.
    Then there was that all important critical front of Haiti, that was dealt with. All without incurring any significant American casualties. Of course, the fact that Afghanistan had fallen under the Wahhabist obscurantism
    of the Taliban,which providedsanctuary
    for AQ never seemed to really make the
    point. In fact, the administration, seemed to go out of its way to slight the only adversary the Northern Alliance. The problem in Yemen, that would be typified by the Cole bombing; also escaped the mind of Gen. Zinni, as it had Gen. Hoar in the previous half decade. Zinni, had even been opposed to the meager strikes on Al Shifa. The idea that jihadists was growing new adherents in the heart of Europe, much less the United States
    also seemed fanciful. Despite the first
    PDB that pointed directly to that fact.
    Despite the example of Ahmed Ressam. Not long after this, would super’
    counter-terrorist’ Larry Johnson pen the column that should have tossed him out of contention for any degree of credibility; that terrorism was an ever decreasing threat.Ironically that
    was not so. Now in the face ofd serious reconsideration by the scholars of jihad toward it’s effectiveness, (Al Sharif. Tantawi, even Sheik Al Odah) the good professor wants to return to the approach that in retrospect was an enormous failure; because the interim costs now are considered two high.

  17. Slartibartfast says:

    “proviked”? Well, we ought to be thankful we didn’t get a “hedgemony”.

  18. Pablo says:

    Comment by Major John on 7/1 @ 7:29 pm

    Major John, if you’ve got a parent you could make available, we’d sure be obliged for the opportunity to form our opinions about what you’re doing based on their feelings toward Chimpy McHitlerburton. Unless you think that would be foolish.

    Hope all is quiet in your neighborhood. Thank you.

  19. lee says:

    Good stuff narciso.

  20. lee says:

    MJ, not to turn the screw but,… what Pablo said.

  21. Major John says:

    My parents wouldn’t be much help… my Mom is waaayyy to the Right of me, and my Dad simply replies with profanity – directed toward all politicians – when asked about politics (although he is probably more libertarian than Right).

  22. Major John says:

    Oh, and my neighborhood is fine. I’ll probably be hiding in the basement on the 4th… Leave ends on the morning of the 6th, and it is back to Iraq for 3+ months remaining.

  23. dre says:

    I like the BusHitler regime! Some many wars so little time.

  24. MlR says:

    Actually, no.

    Bacevich’s a traditional conservative, not a peacenik. His point is that, in spite of 9-11, the U.S. government still treats the direct defense of Americans as a lesser priority than sustaining its political and military arrangements abroad for the sake of global policemanship. And, therefore, places itself in a position where it has to pull its punches for the sake of other interests.

  25. MlR says:

    His books are highly recommended, even if you believe you’ll ultimately disagree with him.

  26. mojo says:

    They used to call it the “Department of War”, but those were less nuanced times. Or perhaps more forthright…

  27. MlR says:

    They also used to raze the countries to the ground and beat the people into submission before they started rebuilding them.

    We’re a different country. Even Conservatives now speak like liberal internationalists.

  28. MlR says:

    I’ll say, though, that Bacevich is nuts to suggest voting for Obama. He also did it in the America Conservative. Sick of Republicans, yeah, but vote for a socialist – no.

  29. lee says:

    the U.S. government still treats the direct defense of Americans as a lesser priority than sustaining its political and military arrangements abroad for the sake of global policemanship.

    I don’t know about a lesser priority, but the latter may be in the interests of the former. It all boils down to whether you can separate your cynicism from your realism.

  30. narciso says:

    His earlier work, yes, but his “American Empire” series onward, not so much. One hopes we don’t have to confront jihadists on American soil
    as we did nearly seven years ago. But the policies he is advocating, are sadly leading to that point. Much like
    the late General Odom, who as brief a time as nine years ago; was willing to invade Kosovo, through the Hungarian
    dominant region of Vovjodina; damn the
    torpedoes. But he pressed for
    ‘redeployment’ early into the Iraq War; which had that advice have been fol

  31. happyfeet says:

    I feel fairly defended really. I even took public transportation today. Ok well there was this one guy wearing silk pajamas and he smelled funny. Like bad funny not funny funny. But he sat quietly enough. And also this one really ugly girl that made me feel sad. She was a teenager and she was with this group of teenagers and they were all on the subway with these two ladies that were sort of looking after them. Boy she’d been beaten with the ugly stick to an inch of her life and then she stuck a nose ring on it. At first none of the kids were talking to her but then this one normal looking girl in the group started talking to her and they were smiling so I felt better. But for real this wasn’t one of those things you just grow out of you could tell. When I see stuff like that it makes me wish I had been nicer to the ugly girls back in high school when I had the chance. It’s just sad is all.

  32. dre says:

    Patrick J Buch for savior?

  33. cynn says:

    So lee, is it realistic or cynical to try and manipulate cultures, societies, governments beyond our manifest destiny?

  34. MlR says:

    “I don’t know about a lesser priority, but the latter may be in the interests of the former. It all boils down to whether you can separate your cynicism from your realism.”

    “May be.”

    Consider me unconvinced. American Conservatives will be better off once they realize that the Pentagon and National Security apparatus are not much more efficient or prescient than any other body of government, and its ability to manage the world correspondingly ineffective. Particularly when it’s “allies” aren’t, and its treasury soon bankrupted by uncontrolled entitlement programs.

    You don’t need to be all over the world, reconstructing foreign societies as if we were naive liberals, in order to stop terrorist attacks against the United States.

  35. MlR says:

    But that’s all for me tonight.

    Night.

  36. Pablo says:

    …beyond our manifest destiny?

    Where do you draw that line?

  37. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Someone should set Bacevich down and explain to him that hes in shock from his loss, and that the old Marxist Leftwing screeds, demonizing America because she keeps getting in the way of their eternally failed dreams of world domination, will absolutely not bring back his son.

    – But then again, like sashal, they need something, or someone, to lash out at, so why bother, they will not listen.

  38. cynn says:

    Pablo: It’s global, baby!

  39. cynn says:

    Unless, of course, it’ fulla brownies. Them we just overpower.

  40. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Yes cyn, we’er absolute power mad egomaniacs.

    – Say, now that you mention it where is all those barrels of oil now that we could use them. You know, the ones we attacked Iraq for.

    – Kind of pisses me off. We gave Am.erican blood just for their oil, and so far I’m not seeing any.

    – For war mongers we sure treat the browns, (a complete mischaracterization btw), with kid gloves.

    – Whats up with that?

  41. Unless, of course, it’ fulla brownies. Them we just overpower.

    and don’t forget the milk!

  42. lee says:

    You don’t need to be all over the world, reconstructing foreign societies as if we were naive liberals, in order to stop terrorist attacks against the United States.

    So, you see no national strategic value in assuring international trade routes be safe for international commerce?

    Son!, won’t you ever learn to lift the seat when you pee?!

    It keeps the grief away!

  43. #24: His point is that, in spite of 9-11, the U.S. government still treats the direct defense of Americans as a lesser priority than sustaining its political and military arrangements abroad for the sake of global policemanship

    A defensible point it is, too. But, someone has to be top dog in this fallen creation of a world of ours. Better it should be a civilized democracy like us, than gawd knows what out of the fever dreams of Islamism. To paraphrase Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, I’d rather the U.S. be the world’s policeman than the jihadists be the West’s executioner.

  44. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Well if Iran is actually stupid enough to try to close the straights of Hormuz, they’re going to get a good introduction to “American imperialistic hegemony”, up close and personal.

  45. #44 BBH: How soon they forget the spanking we gave them in 1987.

  46. cynn says:

    BBH: I am just deranged enough to think that holding off on the Iraqi supply until oil gets insane will benefit certain legacy moneyholders. But I’m not that crazy yet. Curious, do you even know what the average Iranian thinks or looks like? Or does it matter?

  47. lee says:

    Curious, do you even know what the average Iranian thinks or looks like?

    They are men, and their souls long for liberty and justice just like the souls of all mankind.

  48. Or does it matter?

    why would it?

  49. cynn says:

    No, there are women and children too. Why start bombing them simply because their government is an ass.

  50. cynn says:

    maggie, you are a dry roasted bitch.

  51. lee says:

    Ummm, cynn, carpet bombing is a thing of the past, just like the draft.

    try and keep up…

  52. better than a nightly toasted one I guess.

  53. *sigh* further explaining myself, unlike a certain someone. The individuals in the country may be lovely people, but if their government does something that merits retaliation or punishment it doesn’t matter. RTO met some wonderful Afghans and I’m sure Major John could tell you about some nice Iraqis as well, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have invaded.

  54. lee says:

    Why Maggie, are you implying Cynn takes liquid courage, seriously affecting her coherence, before hitting “enter”?

    It is wrong to make assumptions. She may well be that stupid.

  55. cynn says:

    Are you seriously talking about surgical bombing? Let the Israelis do it. They have better equipment.

  56. Let the Israelis do it.

    but… but… won’t anyone think of the CHILLREN?

  57. lee says:

    They have better equipment.

    Really?

    I thought all their best stuff came from us on the backs of the working American?

    It’s hard to keep it all straight these days…

  58. McGehee says:

    lee wrote:

    They are men, and their souls long for liberty and justice just like the souls of all mankind.

    …to which cynn replied:

    No, there are women and children too.

    …whose souls hunger only for change, I suppose.

    Mostly dimes and quarters.

  59. Karl says:

    Ah, yes — global policemanship. Of which there are so many excellent examples.

  60. cynn says:

    Like I said, they have better equipment…

  61. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “. Curious, do you even know what the average Iranian thinks or looks like? Or does it matter?”

    – Actually cynn, thats precisely how I know that little piece of propagandist crap is just that.

    – I’m on the darker olive skinned side, even though I’m snow white Slavic background on dads side (Russian), and Irish on moms side.

    – As a consequence I’m typically a bit more brown than my Iranian/Iraqi friends.

    – As for knowing what they think, they all agree they barely escaped the barbarians murdering rapists and thugs of Hussein or Komeini/Adenajad, miss their country badly, and thank Allah for what America has done for them.

    – As far as do I know, I know that the Left will never ask the people who live it, because it wouldn’t fit the hate America first Narrativeâ„¢. I also know that all my friends that are from any part of the ME thing the Left in amaerca are totally bat-shit crazy. those are the things I know, and come from their words, not mine.

    – But do go on with your Leftist theories. I’m back writing again, and I could use the material.

  62. cynn says:

    You all have a boner for a preemptive strike against Iran and a tuck-in for Israel. Good luck with that.

  63. cynn says:

    Here’s a deal. If one Iranian truly wanted help overthrowing his or her government, I would try to help, any way I could. Just like I contributed to those Iraq campaigns that went nowhere.

  64. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “You all have a boner for a preemptive strike against Iran….”

    – Nice dodge, get called out on your bullshit propaganda and veer off, but wrong again.

    – I wish more than you can possible know that the Murderous regimes in the ME, the ones your side works so hard to prop up and keep in business, would wake up tomorrow morning and turn to building their societies and totally reject the idea of a Caliphate, or warring on other countries and religions.

    – If you can make any sort of plea to them to embrace humanity and stop killing, I would support you in any way I can.

    – Your ball.

  65. McGehee says:

    #65 was to #62.

  66. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – “Spill on aisle #67 Joe…you’re going to need the shop vac and a mop”

  67. cynn says:

    God, now the rightists think they’re playing racquetballl. It’s the gradual unhinging….

  68. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Cutsey hominems means one thing only cynn. Your side isn’t really interested in serious dialog, because you know from the start you’re on a hate America witch hunt pure and simple.

    – You are simply tired of being powerless, and thats your sum total agenda. Nothing wrong with that, you really have no choice, but it wouldn’t kill you to stop hiding behind Marxist aparatchik fantasies and just admit thats what its all about for you. Would save a whole hell of a lot of time for everyone.

    – How do we know thats you motive, and you don’t give a fuck about the ME. Well after awhile when your opponent refuses to address a single point you’ve made it becomes obvious.

    – Thats the main problem with propaganda campaigns, even Marx warned you about that. It has a limited shelf life.

  69. cynn says:

    Oh, so I hate America, and am on some kind of evil witch hunt. When do the burnings stop? When do both sides climb down off their hobbyhorses and get their hands dirty trying to hold this mess together?

  70. McGehee says:

    When do the burnings stop?

    When morale improves.

  71. When morale improves.

    *snort*

  72. cynn says:

    Good luck, guys!

  73. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – I never mentioned that you hate America cynn, another strawman, the venerable “victim” card.

    – What I said is you’re tired of being powerless. If you’re a victim of anything its a victim of your own ideology. You know, the wonderful collectivist ideas that have killed 100 million people since the Bolshevic revolution.

    – I don’t think the average Lefty hates America purse’, I think they hate being powerless and will say anything they think they can use to get back in power, absolutely anything.

    – Truth has no meaning when you’re up to your ass in a propaganda campaign, but of course you of all people know that.

  74. RTO Trainer says:

    Cynn, posts, drunk and maudlin on Protein Wisdom, claiming persecution and deliberate distortion.

    Women and minoriteis hardest hit.

    Film at 11.

  75. Ric Locke says:

    Down, BBH.

    cynn, I have a question: do you and your fellows ever question your Faith, or is it just Righteousness all the way down?

    The mullahs ruling Iran have told us in detail what they intend. They mean to establish the Global Caliphate with themselves as the controllers — not rulers: in Shi’ia Islam being the ruler is a mug’s game, it’s the religious authorities who tell the Caliph what to do. They intend to extend Shar’ya to the entire world, meaning Andrew Sullivan gets hung by the neck until dead and you get to wear a black sack. And they mean to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. They regard us as the biggest barrier to accomplishing that, and intend to kill as many of us as possible in order to intimidate the rest of us into compliance with their program. They’ve been saying the same thing, with minor variations, since 1979.

    You and your associates have been calling them a pack of damned liars the whole time. (I can’t help thinking it’s part of what pisses them off, y’know? Can’t be pleasant.) As soon as one of them sits down from explaining his program, one of you pops up to explain that your dear colleague is full of shit from ignorance and overexcitement, and what they really want is Self-Esteem and Acceptance of their Different Customs in the World Community, and No More Interference by Hegemonist Outsiders, and if they get that they’ll calm down and start teaching Marxist literary theory like normal people.

    Does it ever occur to you that you might be wrong? Does it ever enter your head in any way that they might be serious about what they’ve been saying for thirty years? I mean, no, it doesn’t fit the pseudoleftist Narrative that controls all life and the laws of physics, so it obviously can’t be true. You, for instance, don’t feel that way, nor does anybody you know, and that clearly is the definition of all humanity, but do you ever get even the slightest sensation that something else might exist?

    Iranians are at least as clever as any other group of people. They lack traditions of technical expertise, and their socioeconomic system doesn’t encourage such as much as ours does, but they’re perfectly capable of building most anything we can (if they have the money for parts) and there’s nothing whatever that would prevent them from inventing things, which they do. In other words, they’re people. They already have the Shahab-3 missile, which can easily reach New Delhi, Rome, or Vienna — that last having historical resonance for them — and, just barely, Paris and Berlin. And, of course, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, which are lots closer than any of the cities named.

    You and your friends apparently think they ought to be conceded nuclear weapons out of some sense of equity — Americans have ’em, and the Jews (probably) have ’em, and it’s just not fair, is it? So it makes sense that they’d be trying to keep up with the cool kids. Fashion, right? Self-esteem!

    So what happens if you’re wrong? What happens if they’re perfectly serious, and go off and nuke Israel? Are you just gonna write it off as nasty stuff happening over there, no skin off your nose, no reason for us to get involved? Somebody else’s problem, yeah, that’s the ticket. And given your known attitude toward Jews that sort of makes a nasty kind of sense. But what happens when it’s Vienna under the mushroom cloud? Or Rome? Or Paris? What do you do if it turns out they really aren’t good pseudoMarxists just wanting out from under the thumb of the American Imperialsts, and are serious about what they’ve been saying the whole time?

    Regards,
    Ric

  76. Darleen says:

    You all have a boner for a preemptive strike against Iran and a tuck-in for Israel.

    :::sigh::::

    so, cynn, when do you start in accusing American Jews of “dual loyality”?

  77. lee says:

    Wow Ric, righteously said.

  78. cynn says:

    ric, I guess I should be tired of being smashing around here. But I maintain that you guys are smart and I don’t mind gettin’ schooled by my betters.
    Short answer: the Iranian crazies maintain their absolutist position. We do the regional waltz.
    You asking me what happens next? It all depends on the energy bit, innit?

  79. Big D says:

    Sashal, Thor, PH, Cynn,
    Basra or Boston…Tikrit or Toledo…Kandahar or, well, you get the idea. We can fight them over there with soldiers and Marines or we can react over here with police, Fire, and EMT. Your choice. As a Marine, I would much rather draw the enemy out in sthe ME and destroy him than wait for him to strike here. What would you do?

  80. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – As usual Ric you say it much more eloquently.

    – Of course just one nuclear device delivered, and Iran as we know it, would cease to exist, and who knows what that would lead to.

    – I sincerely hope that something will intervene to veer them off their present course, anything short of armed assault by the West.

    – Unfortunately we’re not dealing with rational people, and they know their time is running out.

  81. lee says:

    Well BBH, I DO wish we had four more years of Bush/Cheney.

    Unfortunately, McCain is no Bush. At least Bush is loyal.

    Bush is turning grayer by the day wondering if his replacement will squander his success in the ME.

  82. Big D says:

    BBH, I understand the sentiment but disagree a bit. One nuclear device would not clear the problem. Nuclear should be the absolute last solution. I pray that it will not be an imperative, but Isreal will not go gently. I was priveleged to witness a swearing in of the IDF atop Masada. The motto os “Never again.” I’m pretty sure they mean it.

  83. Big D says:

    os=is

    Dang Merlot

  84. cynn says:

    Well, BD, you big serviceman, I will put on my little nursie outfit and fight them over here.

  85. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – lee, if Obama wins, you’ll probably be surprised at what he doesn’t do. Ten minutes after he takes office he will be hit square in the forehead, just as Kennedy was, and Clinton after him, (I deliberattely omited Jhimmah, hes an aborition of all things political), with the reality of “the politics of the doable”.

    – The Left will think he has abandoned them, if they don’t already bu the time hes sworn in.

    – Truth is his advisers will have him do exactly what must be done, depending on the situation on the ground. Thus it has always been so.

    – I’m far more concerned about how he’ll handle any crisis that comes up than I am about him turning us into Moscow West,

  86. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Big D, I wasn’t clear. I was referring to Iran delivering a nuclear missile on Israel or some other country, and the retaliation that would surely come immediately after.

  87. Big D says:

    Cynn,A
    Gunnery Sergeant explained it to me when I was a young PFC:
    A Marine’s job is to stand up and take a bullet for civilians. I don’t suppose you’ll ever understand that. We don’t expect you to. We do what we do for love of country, nothing else. Semper Fi.

  88. Big D says:

    BBH – Understand and agreee. People tend to underestimate the Isrealis.

  89. RTO Trainer says:

    So, I’ve got to wonder;

    Iran only has one refinery. Just one.

    What do you supposed happens domestically if Iran can’t produce any of it’s own gasoline or kerosine?

  90. RTO Trainer says:

    Big D. It’s kind of like the question of why civilians get in among military vehicles in convoy.

    We space out at 150 meters and drive 40 mph and some of them still get in between us instead of passing in the left lane.

    It’s just one of those civilian/military divide things; makes no sense, but a few always will.

  91. Big D says:

    Cynn,

    Have you figured it out yet? It’s not the unkempt war protester that hs protected your right to spout your opinions. It was those of us that took up arms. We don’t expect any thanks. We loved our country and defended her irrespective of her shortcomings. We love and defend you still today.

  92. lee says:

    I mean, at least with Bush/Cheney, there was adult, responsible leadership on the world stage. I’m afraid that McCain/Obama are much less unambiguous. It seems both are willing to give our enemy’s the benefit of constitutional protections.

    Army privates will be instructed on Miranda warnings.

    Civil court will dictate military procedure.

    Geneva convention status will be extended to the one type of group the Geneva convention meant to outlaw internationally.

    lambs will lay down with lions,

    the rich will give all they have to the poor,

    socialists will allow that capitalism has some beneficial merits.

    tools of death(guns, slingblades, pointy knives, hammers, conveniently sized rocks, pillows), will universally disappear as utopia takes root.

    Pass the bong…

  93. Big D says:

    RTO,

    You’re right… I’m whistling in the wind.

    She’ll never get it.

    God Bless the USA

  94. lee says:

    *wheeze…gasp*

    WHOOFF!

    OK, I forgot,(*cough,cough*) also in the coming utopia;(*big raggedy inhaling of breath*) man will have firm control over the weather.

    None of that Global Warming(tm) shit…

  95. Big D says:

    Either we shamed her into silence or she passed out. I’m betting on the latter.

  96. lee says:

    Oh, and all machines will expel only rainbows and polar Bear farts.

    *burbleburbleburbleburble*

  97. lee says:

    And lets not forget according to abilities, and wants, and all that cool Che rap…

    *gurgelgurgelgurgel*

  98. lee says:

    Wow,… man…I want to marry my sofa…

    *hey man, got another load for this thing…?*

  99. Rusty says:

    #92
    In my defense, I was hiding from the state troopers.

  100. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by cynn on 7/1 @ 10:33 pm #

    Like I said, they have better equipment…”

    Personal experience?

  101. cynn says:

    Nobrain: fuck off as always. And BigD: Thanks for your service. I am trying to quit smoking, and am not responding well to Xyban. Sorry, it makes me kooky. But I love coming here because I get to talk to smart people. I’d best stay away for awhile.

  102. cynn says:

    Oh, hell, I’ll add something since I know no one will read it at this point. Any one of you guys and women in the military have my absolute support. I hold those who volunteer for service more valuable than those who are elected. One offers himself, while the other offers an image.

  103. B Moe says:

    One offers himself, while the other offers an image.

    And that is why I like having cynn around, every now and again she busts a beauty. I am going to hold that thought with a smile all weekend.

  104. Rusty says:

    #105
    I am trying to quit smoking, and am not responding well to Xyban.
    Whoa! That explains the bitchyness.
    If it’s any help, just go cold turkey. I’m not being a wiseass. It’s the way I quit over 25 years ago. 12 hour increments; if I can just make it till lunch, then if I can just make it till bed time. If you can do that for two weeks you’ll have it knocked. You’ll still have cravings,the morning and after meal ones were the worst, but it will be easier to ignore them. Oh yeah. For years you’ll be smoking in your dreams.
    Good luck with it Cynn. I mean it.

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