April 18, 2008

The Mormon-Muslim polygamy question [Karl]

At AoSHQ, Gabriel Malor takes issue with Eric at Classical Values — as well as a number of AoSHQ commenters — who have reacted to the news about the week-long raid by Texas authorities of a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints polygamist compound by wondering whether Muslims and renegade Mormons receive the same treatment on TV:

Yes, there’s moral relativism going on here, but it’s not coming from Larry King. Eric–and the commenters in my earlier post who mentioned it too–should be asking themselves why its necessary to demonstrate some equivalence between renegade Mormon polygamists and Muslim polygamists. Is Eric’s argument that we shouldn’t be describing women as “escaped from polygamy” or is he merely saying that Muslims get kid glove treatment when it happens?

That’s a strange case to make when we’ve got a renegade Mormon polygamist ranch right in front of us. It’s not like CNN had a choice between doing a story on Muslims or one on Mormons…

I read Eric’s post as expressing the latter sentiment.  I certainly have no sympathy for the generally abusive practice of polygamy by either religion, which is illegal here in either case.

Malor, however, overstates an otherwise valid point when addressing the editorial choices made by the establishment media in covering polygamy.  Approximately a year ago, there was the case of a Muslim bigamist slain by one of his wives just outside Philadelphia, and the Muslim polygamy uncovered after a fatal fire in a row house in the Bronx — either of which could have been a news hook for an examination of the underground culture of Muslim polygamy in the US, which may be larger than that of Mormon polygamy.

That the story of Muslim polygamy has not become fodder for the 24/7 cable news cycle is probably not entirely due to political correctness.  The police raid in Texas provides the dramatic video that the Muslim stories may have lacked (though cable nets could have had footage of the NYC fire or the courtroom coverage of the Philly case).  However, as the New York Times noted:

Don’t-ask-don’t-know policies prevail in many agencies that deal with immigrant families in New York, perhaps because there is no framework for addressing polygamy in a city that prides itself on tolerance of religious, cultural and sexual differences — and on support for human rights and equality.

It appears that one reason there is not video of government crackdowns on Muslim polygamy is that government is squeamish about cracking down on it. 

Accepting Malor’s general condemnation of polygamy at face value, I presume that he would not have the government or the public do nothing about the abusive culture of Muslim polygamy.  Raising the issue in the wake of the Texas Mormon case may seem like moral relativism to him, but the case does present the opportunity to raise the profile of a tragedy going largely ignored.

Posted by Karl @ 12:54pm
152 comments | Trackback

Comments (152)

  1. Not being someone who watches the crap on tv, I don’t know first hand, but I read somewhere that the hags on the view were making fun of the fashions of the women from the ranch. It is in THAT sense, imho, you can see the media LOVING this story. I mean, they can bash away at Christian religious extremists with immunity.

    What makes this story so sensational, of course, is the large number of people participating (versus one polygamist muslim) PLUS the whole cultish aspect of the FLDS movement/church. If there had been some muslim ranch of equal disrepute, I’m sure it would make just as many waves. But, I think the snarkiness (making fun of the women’s backwardness) would be absent. They would be reaching out, being more sympathetic and less catty.

  2. If there had been some muslim ranch of equal disrepute, I’m sure it would make just as many waves.

    Dunno about that. The al’Fuqra(sp?) compounds don’t seem to get much attention outside the blogosphere.

  3. If the al’Fuqra compound was raided, and turned up something similar – don’t you think everyone would be sifting through all the details like they are with the FLDS stuff? People are always interesting in the bizarre. Let’s be honest here – that’s why this story is big. It’s just so weird.

    But, the difference would be -between these two examples – is that because the al-Furqu groups are black, people would go that extra mile to be cautious about how they framed their criticisms.

  4. Carin – I agree with your sentiment… except that Mormonism is not Christianity by any stretch. Unless of course Christianity is Judaism.

  5. It was a lot I thought cause of the echoes of Waco and also the media loves to hate on Texas. There was talk about this when people were trying to explain why a critically-acclaimed drama like the Friday Night Lights one didn’t do well and the media kicked around the idea that people hate Texas cause that’s where Bush is from. They didn’t really have any data though, I think they just enjoyed tossing it out there. But for reals, I think the media wants to make Texas look backasswards even more than they want to make Mormons look backasswards. It helps a lot if you don’t watch the tv. I promise you that polygamist hick cults really aren’t particularly interesting, on the tv it just seems like they are.

  6. I don’t think most people in the US really get all that upset with the idea of polygamy. What seems to have gotten these people in trouble is the whole child rape thing. If we started to hear more about muslims marrying children in the US I think it would become a bigger deal.

  7. Carin – I agree with your sentiment… except that Mormonism is not Christianity by any stretch.

    Mormonism sees Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior. They believed he died to atone for man’s sins and that he resurrected and returned to the Father. That’s fundamentally Christiany.

  8. Pablo – Mormonism sees Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior. They believed he died to atone for man’s sins and that he resurrected and returned to the Father.

    among other things. not a real sophisticated consumer are you? heard of Kolob?

  9. I know that is a HUGE debate regarding Mormonisms and Christianity, but for all in tense and purpose here- especially in terms of MSM- Mormons are Christians.

    But, of course, what do I know? I’m Catholic, and thus not Christian either according to some.

  10. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians?

  11. Sorry – OT but Karl – thought you might be interested in this letter from Karl Rove to Dan Abrams = he squashes stupid Scot Horton like a bug

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmY4YTBmMDg3NDljYWY0NTViNmMxNzgwOGUzZTk1NGI=

  12. Come on, B Moe! Kolob!

    I’m Catholic, and thus not Christian either according to some.

    And you’re not the only one, Carin. Right, Enoch?

  13. I pretty much don’t care who calls themself a Christian, because if they’re not of my faith … well, we probably have theological differences aplenty.

    Butl, I do know that many who are hot on the “Mormons aren’t Christians” also follow-up with a “BTW, neither are you.” At least from personal experience.

  14. I’d love to see us legalize polygamy in this country, specifically so we COULD go after the child marriages. As long as polygamists are forced into the underground, they’ll be able to cross that line with impunity. We cannot clean up either subculture while we continue to have the existing laws on the book, and no exemptions for those of faiths that permit it.

  15. There’s no video of the government crackdowns on Muslim polygamy because the government isn’t cracking down on Muslims. The government is, rather, building Mosques with taxpayer money (see Boston mosque.) Last time I checked, the Mormons weren’t blowing up shit. So, they’re pretty easy for the government types to push around without too much fear of reprisal.

    There is, however, a religion that practices ritual mutilation. They called mine a “circumcision.” Priest cut part of mine off when I was six months old. Then served a catered kosher lunch while I bled. People today just call it what it is: ritual child genital mutilation.

    The Catholic church has probably raped more kids than any other single religious institution – yet its leader toured the White House just a few days ago and held his mass at a taxpayer built structure.

    So, pardon me if I don’t get too upset that some guy married two homely women down in El Dorado.

  16. The Catholic church has probably raped more kids…

    Shit, there’s a Catholic church in my neighborhood. I’m going to start keeping a closer eye on that SOB, you can be sure. It looks kind of bulky and slow-moving, being made of brick and all, but I guess you can never be too careful.

  17. Butl, I do know that many who are hot on the “Mormons aren’t Christians” also follow-up with a “BTW, neither are you.” At least from personal experience.

    I recall be told by a superior in the military, in no uncertain terms, that I was going to hell for being Catholic. A Southern Baptist, that one was.

  18. Didn’t LDS essentially “disown” these folks some time ago?

  19. layerguy – Hyperbole often? May allah give you a pile of smegma for Ramadan.

  20. Polygamists get excommunicated, IIRC.

  21. The feets pretty much nailed it; the LSM, whether due to simply the usual east/west coast arrogance or becaused the uber-hated GWB is from here, loves to hit on Texas.

    Being a Texan, as well as someone who has been all over this country at one time or another, I say fuck ‘em, the horse they rode in on, and the colonel who sent them. Sure, these fifty-dollar-haircut-and-five-dollar-brains love to smirk about how “bass-ackwards” Texas is supposed to be, but having traveled as widely as I have, and having seen for myself just how common bass-ackwardness is, regardless of where you go (and some places are far worse; Alaska, Washington State and Massachusetts immediately come to mind), I just have to laugh at their profligate ignorance.

    That we have had a couple of cults (for lack of a better term) settle down here has more to do with where they settled in Texas than anything else. You get out in west Texas, especially west of the San Antonio/Austin/Dallas line, there is not a whole lot but miles and miles of miles and miles. And a lot of the land is relatively cheap. Indeed, whether it was the Branch Davidians, or this Mormon bunch, if the truth be known, most of their members were not even from Texas, but rather came here from other parts of the country.

    As for this Mormon bunch, I’m still waiting to see the gun camera film on this one. On the surface, it sounds like the state has stirred up a hornet’s nest when they didn’t need to. I have yet to hear of them finding anyone who can confirm the child wife bit, since the girl who is supposed to have made the initial call can’t be found. We shall see…

  22. May allah give you a pile of smegma for Ramadan.

    And 72 white grapes.

  23. Cave Root, the CPS supervisor testified today that they’re got 20 underage mothers. And given what they know of these people from the Jeffs trial, that isn’t surprising. We shall see…

  24. Y’all remember the last time a thread got dearailed by circumcision? Hilarity ensued.

  25. …raise the profile of a tragedy going largely ignored.

    Perhaps with 50% of all black girls ages 14-19 having an STD, and about 70% of all black pregnancies being illegitimate, the thinking with regard to Muslim polygamy is “at least they’re married to someone.” Even if you’re a prosecutor who really cares about 14 year old black girls in abusive polygamist marriages, is it really prudent to dive into “fixing” the situation?

  26. Hey, layerboy. Why don’t you take that fatuous hyperbole of yours, tie it to the end of your pecker, and drop it off a high bridge. It’ll surely stretch you out a new foreskin and you can be “whole” once more, smegma and all.

    For the DIVERSITY, don’cha know…

  27. Jim in KC – Watch out for those bricks, they are homosexual rapists, they are. layerguy told us so.

  28. Hilarity ensued.

    The tip of my dick still aches…from the laughter!

  29. That’s MISTER Cave Bear to you, Pablo. (And here I was, going to take your side about those assholes giving you grief for being Catholic. Humph.)

    Well, I had not heard that, having been on the road all day. But I’ve seen CPS screw up enough times, regardless of what they are claiming today, to take a wait and see attitude. As you and I both said, we shall see…:)

  30. Carin and Pablo – as a fellow Catholic, I must tell you that they are severely distinct from us. Huckabee sez he’s a Conservative. He is a Moderate, at best. Obama sez he’s a Liberal. He is a Marxist. Mormons say they are Christians.

    Hoping you are kidding. As there is nothing more sad than Catholics who don’t know s*&^ about their faith.

    As for the raping of children… well, that is getting quite old. Next people will be asserting more than 100 ppl were put to death accross the decades of the EVIL Inquisition… or, perhaps that there was a Woman Pope (Joan)… or that the Church is opposed to science. And hell if ppl started asserting those falsehoods, you wouldn’t be in much of a position to defnd the Faith… now would you?

  31. layerguy reminds me of the iowahawk post about people in the media that have been arrested.

  32. “Jim in KC – Watch out for those bricks, they are homosexual rapists, they are. layerguy told us so.”

    And those stained glass window are kindy pervy, too. And don’t get me started on the ORGAN!!!!111!!!

  33. “kinda pervy”

    PIMF

  34. Enoch,
    1. I was educated in Catholic schools through high school.

    2. Christianity has lots of flavors, and my metric for determining whether one is Christian is whether they believe in the divinity of Christ and the basic concepts of his being the Savior, and how that all worked.

    3. As for being a Catholic, I’m really, really lapsed. But not bitter. And I’ve actually had a Catholic pastor tell me not to worry too much about it.

  35. I must tell you that they are severely distinct from us.

    That may be, and they may not be a type of Christianity you recognize. But if they believe in Jesus as the messian, and profess to be His Church in their name, I think they fit the definition of Christian in the broad sense. As would most people familiar with the language, I would reckon.

  36. That’s MISTER Cave Bear to you, Pablo. (And here I was, going to take your side about those assholes giving you grief for being Catholic. Humph.)

    Sorry for calling you Cave Root, CB. Clearly, I need to start drinking earlier in the day.

  37. In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a Mormon who comes here for the dancing armadillo.

    Who hasn’t (to the best of my knowledge) danced in a good long while.

    The bastard.

    To be honest, Mormon’s aren’t (by today’s western definition of the term) Christians. As has been noted we see “…Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior. They believed he died to atone for man’s sins and that he resurrected and returned to the Father“, but where we separate from “Christianity” is that we don’t believe that “grace” will be the deciding factor in our salvation. We believe we are saved by our faith and our works, through the grace of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

    Add to that the belief in modern revelation and being lead by a prophet who talks to God and you see where things start to break down with other mainstream Christian religions.

    As for calling the polygamists in Texas “Mormon’s” that is true in the same sense that Protestants are Catholics.

    There also exists huge gaps in how these organizations practice polygamy as compared with how the Mormons used to practice it.

    What bothers me with this raid isn’t that it happened. Hey, they were breaking the law (the merits of the law can be debated) and as such they are reaping what they had sown.

    No, what bothers me is the insensitivity with which these children are being treated. Their lives are being turned upside and they are being mocked and insulted for things such as not being willing to eat white bread or drink soda. They are being placed into foster care situations with people of a fire-and-brim-stone nature that runs contrary to everything they’ve been taught.

    Or to put it this way…

    Take a Catholic orphanage and suddenly replace all the priests and nuns with scientologists who openly talk about how evil the Catholic church is.

    It is not fair to the kids, they above all haven’t done anything wrong and yet they are the ones being treated poorly by the state.

  38. Actually the “raid” on the FLDS compound was not about polygamy. At least not specifically. It was action by Texas CPS as a result of an alleged outcry by a 16 year old girl married to one of the church honchos. The girl, Sarah, claimed to be 16 and pregnant with child No. 2 from her “old man.” Do the math and she was much younger when conceiving child No. 1. The state is not going to prosecute any polygamy offenses. It’s after similar convictions to those given the FLDS leader Warren Jeffs who is now in prison.

    My office is three blocks from the courthouse where the hearings for 416 children are being held right now. Strange to see CNN, NBC, etc., etc., in town.

    As for treating Muslims and off-shoot Mormons differently. I don’t think so in cases like this. What about the Muslim couple who were convicted and sentenced for making a house slave and sex slave out of a young Indonesian woman? Best guess is they’re muslim.

  39. Sorry. Meant . . . “Saudi couple who were convicted . . .” “. . . Best guess is they’re muslim.”

  40. Folks, let’s pause to remember that our good friend and fellow protein dicentra is Mormon, and quality people she is, too.

    That said, I support vigorously quashing all polygamy within our borders, of any sect. Marriage and family are the building blocks of our society, and confusion in the marriage law will have far-reaching ill effects that we can barely foresee.

    Other than that, the difference between Mormon and Muslim polygamy for me is chiefly that the former disgusts me, whereas the latter disgusts and frightens me. Mormonism neither picks my pocket nor bombs my bus. My small daughter, however, could conceivably become the Allah-sanctioned booty of some victorious jihadist, if we lose this war.

  41. I agree that the way the children will be handled will likely be not very good at all. I’m not sure what to do in situations like this, but separating them from their parents with flimsy cause is certainly not good.

    Basically, this is a no-win situation. From the testimony it looks like CPS is worried about what the parents are teaching the children, and want to separate them on that basis. While I agree that teaching young women that their one and only calling is to have a mess of babies starting at a very early age is not proper, I wonder at the notion of the State deciding even further what you can and cannot teach your children.

    If this goes to the Supreme Court, it could be a landmark decision.

  42. I’m just waiting for layerguy to give me advice as to the rapacity of Mormon temples, SI.

    Meanwhile, I guess I think polygamy is OK if you can stand it. Me, I don’t have that high a pain threshold.

  43. BTW, as far as religions go, my father likes to say, “Don’t break anyone’s plastic bubble.” If you choose to believe in G-d (as I do, being a TWP who is definitely leaning towards bitter and putting some new guns on my list), it’s best to just keep whatever faith you have between you and G-d. I’m not saying to not testify when it’s appropriate, but I am saying that pointing fingers at others and saying who is and who is not going to heaven based on which brand of religion they consume is, well, a quite un-Christian thing to do. Not only that, but it’s the height of arrogance to do so.

    Plus, you might break their bubble, and that’s a no-no.

  44. Apparently layerguy would not mind so much as long as they weren’t engaged in child genital mutilation.

  45. Y’all remember the last time a thread got dearailed by circumcision? Hilarity ensued.

    I’m still impressed that was enough to force the train off the tracks. That’s… manly.

  46. As for Topsekret’s dropping the Rove letter, how can you not believe the guy that looks like the guy in the “Twighlight Zone” video (Golden Earring)? That’s all I need.

  47. BECUZ OF TEH SMEGMA !!!!

    I really could not care less about other people’s faiths. To me, it is a personal relationship with your God. My only concerns about religion come when others attempt to push their views on me as being more right, or in the nishidiots scenario, where one attempts to stifle all voices of faith.

  48. Rob – layerguy is a huge dick. That was a lot of foreskin.

  49. And as for surreptitious practicing of the Islamic faith in America, I just shudder to think how many arabian immigrants quietly brought along their family slaves.

  50. Carin and Pablo – as a fellow Catholic, I must tell you that they are severely distinct from us. Huckabee sez he’s a Conservative. He is a Moderate, at best. Obama sez he’s a Liberal. He is a Marxist. Mormons say they are Christians.

    Hoping you are kidding. As there is nothing more sad than Catholics who don’t know s*&^ about their faith.

    I do know about my faith- I honestly don’t see what my comment had to do with my faith in all honesty. I meant that I simply don’t see the point of arguing with those who don’t share my faith on the finer points of religion. Mormons wanna say their Christian. Ok. Fine. My issue with their religion has SO MUCH more to do with a man named Smith than it does with whether or not they are Christian. We could debate for a month of Sundays before we got to the “Christian or not” issue. Not that I have anything against Mormons (and, I distinctly called the cult FLDS, not LDS) – I find ‘em perfectly nice people. I just “don’t wanna go there” with them regarding their religion.

  51. I think we can all agree that :

    1) religion is an intensely personal choice
    2) layerguy is an oozing puss filled rectal fistula
    3) nishi will jack this thread.

  52. Hey, thanks Sanity Inspector for the kudos. Sorry for coming late for the party, but I was actually working hard on a Friday for a change, and I was on a roll.

    So now that I’m here, let’s straighten something out:

    The “Mormons Aren’t Christians” thing is relatively recent, only about 30 years old. It arose from the question of whether a Mormon who converted to a Protestant church needed to be baptized again. Because there’s something of a “baptism exchange” among some Protestant sects, you don’t always have to be rebaptized when leaving one denomination and joining another.

    However, they didn’t want to accept just any old baptism, and because Mormonism is seen as a filthy demonic cult by many, they figured they’d have to say our baptism is no good. Why? Well, since Protestants by definition don’t have a concept of proper priesthood authority, they had to say that we weren’t Christians, therefore the baptism is invalid.

    And then the reasons they come up with for why we aren’t Christians are convoluted indeed, because any categorical condemnation that you can apply to us you can also apply to the early Christians, who were, by any stretch, a cult if there ever was one. Ask Saul of Tarsus, who wasn’t amused by these folks who ran around saying that Messiah had come (O RLY? how come I never heard about it?) and that you didn’t have to follow the Law of Moses anymore. But I digress.

    And with all due respect to Spec4Kane, the main point of contention isn’t faith vs. works, it’s Neoplatonism. Mormonism is utterly devoid of Neoplatonism, as is the Bible, whereas Neoplatonism currently forms the substrate of Western Christianity.

    We claim that the addition of Neoplatonism constitutes apostasy and heresy; they claim it’s an enhancement and fulfillment of Jesus and Paul’s teachings. But that’s another argument entirely.

    Most of the differences between Mormonism and Western Christianity can be traced to Neoplatonism; the rest can be ascribed to the concept of Modern Revelation vs. a closed canon. Also an argument for another day.

    As for the FLDS church and whether they’re being treated different than Muslims…

    I really don’t know what to think. Seriously. No opinion at all. I’ll have to mull it awhile and see what I come up with.

  53. To back up Spec4Kane: I’m a member of the mainstream LDS Church (yes, the one based out of Salt Lake City). Little-known fact: if you want to get excommunicated from the LDS Church, a really easy and quick way to do it is to start practicing polygamy. Yes, the FLDS are traceable to the mainstream Church, but they cut ties with the mainstream Church decades ago.

    Personally, I have a pretty hard time finding pity for them. Even the weepy mothers who are getting so much MSM face time. Polygamy is illegal. They chose to pursue it anyway, consequences be damned. So they had it coming. And if the allegations of 13-year-olds being married off are true, then let the adults in question rot–first in jail, then in hell.

  54. One more thing:

    In the mid-20th century, the State of Utah used to perform raids against the poligs on a regular basis thus to enforce the anti-polygamy laws that are written into the Utah State Constitution (including a proviso that the anti-polygamy clause can never be revoked).

    But there was an outcry as children were separated from their mothers, fathers from their families, and the social service system was overwhelmed by all the foster kids. The authorities only cited “unlawful cohabitation” as the offense, not sexual abuse. The state only officially recognizes one of the marriages, if any–the plural marriages are not legally performed and therefore they aren’t actually polygamists.

    Or something like that.

    Anyway, it’s a sticky situation. Plus the fact that we LDS feel like rank hypocrites when we raid their compounds because our ancestors were persecuted horribly (couldn’t vote, children plucked off the street and forced to rat out their parents, government confiscating assets, armies marching west) for defying the law to obey God. We don’t like turning the tables on people who mostly keep to themselves and don’t cause trouble.

  55. more dicentra is almost always a good thing.

  56. I am saying that pointing fingers at others and saying who is and who is not going to heaven based on which brand of religion they consume is, well, a quite un-Christian thing to do. Not only that, but it’s the height of arrogance to do so.

    I hear that… only have a sort of obligation, you know, to make sure accurate represetations are made is all.

    the rest can be ascribed to the concept of Modern Revelation vs. a closed canon

    erm… closed canon… and you got that from where? anyway, I guess you haven’t read many of the Doctors of the Church, especially the Mystics. We are, after all, a Mystical Church, the RCC. All I am saying is that a loaded and incorrect phrase like “closed canon” is just that: slanted and inaccurate.

    Nonetheless, I dig Mormons, LDS as people. No prob there… just… I guess I am going to have to agree with my Prod Brethren: LDS/Mormonism is not Christianity. But I also say that about BLT. Just cause I say it doesn’t mean I think rev wright’s followers or smith’s followers are excluded from Salvation. As a Catholic, I truly don’t have a clue about the disposition of anyone in respect to God. I can’t see their hearts. That doesnt mean I cannot discern a Christian from a Mormon, however.

  57. No prob there… just… I guess I am going to have to agree with my Prod Brethren: LDS/Mormonism is not Christianity. But I also say that about BLT.

    BLT is politics, and to the extent that it recognizes Christ, it reinvents Him. So i can see that as not being Christian. But why are Mormons not Christian, if they accept the Bible as the word of God, New Testament included?

  58. Well, not to get nit-picky, but isn’t a kinda “right back at-ya” with the Mormons? I mean, don’t Mormons view non-Mormon Christians as misdirected? Wasn’t that why Joseph Smith revealed, according to him, the true word of God?

    Boiled down, it simply means “you don’t believe what I believe.” The particulars don’t really matter that much, unless we’re having a theological debate. Which I don’t think we were. At least, not originally.

  59. Heh. I’m reminded of Karl(?)’s offhand reference to Barth, elsepost.

    I’m familiar with Barth in the same way I’m familiar with the Atlantic Ocean, and given his output, for all but a few that’s about all that’s achievable. For those who don’t know: Barth announces that theology is somewhere between “unnecessary” and “pernicious”, because I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life is all anybody needs — then produces ten million (plus!) words of closely reasoned theology to support that position…

    Never mind. It seems to me the guy was on to something, whatever the rest of his positions might be. I originally got onto Barth because a friend suggested that his thoughts might be compatible with my own, and I discovered that I’m a bit closer to the narrator of Robert Heinlein’s Job, who is surprised (and pleased) that it turns out Papists can in fact go to Heaven.

    And, as I’ve said before, the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints fits with my own vision of a progression that, in a way, validates Mohammed. A-Dam walked in the Garden with God, and they spoke in their own persons; Moses and the Patriarchs heard the Voice of God directly, but stood not in His presence; Christ is the Son of God, a good feudal ploy when the Sovereign doesn’t want to appear in His own person; Mohammad received the Word from the Chief of the Angels; and Joseph Smith got a memo and a briefing from a staffer. The implication that the Creator might be getting just a bit tired of trying and failing to train his recalcitrant pets is not accidental.

    Regards,
    Ric

  60. Ric, I think I may have finally found a religion that speaks to me. What do you call it?

  61. And the pork thing, too?

  62. Christ is the Son of God, a good feudal ploy when the Sovereign doesn’t want to appear in His own person

    ah, well then that is severely distinct from Christianity, whatever you might call it. Pretty sure any heresy that can be thought to be relatively new has been already introduced and died several times over the course of the past 2000 years… just sayin… nothing new here, move along.

  63. for those actually following – that is the inseparable nature of the Trinity and all. in Christianit, of course, Christ is the Living Word… God made flesh… all God AND all man (except for the sin). Hence, we properly refer to the Virgin as the Mother of God, in that she birthed the Christ in the flesh.

  64. And Mormons deviate from that how?

  65. What would you call a church that proclaims that Jesus of Nazareth is the literal Son of God and that His Atonement is the only path to salvation, if not Christian?

    I’m sorry, but only Christ gets to define who’s Christian and who’s not. Anyone else who takes upon himself that task is–sorry, but it’s the only appropriate word–arrogant beyond belief.

    You can rightly say that we’re not Protestant or Catholic, that we’re not Trinitarians, or that we’re not orthodox, but you have no grounds–or authority–for depriving us of the name of Christ.

  66. Dicentra, with all due respect, and that indicates an enormous amount, I’m willing to do exactly that (assign Christianity) based precisely on the reasoning you suggest. In fact, I think your summation is better than mine in terms of how to identify a Christian.

  67. well…the children are pretty heartbreaking.
    dicentra is right, it isnt about polygamy.
    it is about child abuse.
    the reason warren jeffs is in jail is that the girls he married to middleaged men were 14 or 13.
    there are at least 10 underage girls with one or more children in custody.
    about 100 of them are under two years old.
    i feel horribly sad for those women.
    they are not going to get their children back unless they leave the sect and never have any more contact with it.
    even then some of them may be prosecuted for abuse.
    :(

    if there was a muslim compound this size it would be raided similiarly.
    the problem Ali Eteraz talks about is that american muslims are integrated into society.
    unless someone tips off child protective services no one knows.

    a lawyer guy at dKos had a good post about the Mormon church stepping in to help find foster homes for the 400+children.
    the book of mormon is all they have ever known.

  68. each one of theose children has a lawyer.
    even the ones that can’t talk yet.
    :(

  69. dicentra – I am not being mean… Something about Peter upon this Rock I build My Church and all that. I am not saying that there is the absence of the expression of some facets of Christianity in mormonism. As there are some aspects of Christian expression in BLT.

  70. I think Il EEEEVIL PAPA sez it best

    I’ve been watching everything Benedict says, to the extent that I can. I find his papacy fascinating and I suspect it may be revolutionary. But what, specifically, are you talking about?

  71. i have to say…America is a great good where it comes to children.
    we try very hard to do the right thing.
    the better 99 guilty go free schtick doesn’t work so much when there are childvictims.

  72. Pablo – did you read it? If so, and I am being serious, what part of it did you not follow?

    “Too often those who are not Christians, as they observe the splintering of Christian communities, are understandably confused about the Gospel message itself. Fundamental Christian beliefs and practices are sometimes changed within communities by so-called “prophetic actions” that are based on a hermeneutic not always consonant with the datum of Scripture and Tradition. Communities consequently give up the attempt to act as a unified body, choosing instead to function according to the idea of “local options”. Somewhere in this process the need for diachronic koinonia – communion with the Church in every age – is lost, just at the time when the world is losing its bearings and needs a persuasive common witness to the saving power of the Gospel (cf. Rom 1:18-23).”

  73. and that is why there are still pedophile priests in Benedicts Italy.
    cuz italy is not america.
    ;)
    didnt want u to think i was gettin soft!

  74. “My dear friends, the power of the kerygma has lost none of its internal dynamism. Yet we must ask ourselves whether its full force has not been attenuated by a relativistic approach to Christian doctrine similar to that found in secular ideologies, which, in alleging that science alone is “objective”, relegate religion entirely to the subjective sphere of individual feeling. Scientific discoveries, and their application through human ingenuity, undoubtedly offer new possibilities for the betterment of humankind. This does not mean, however, that the “knowable” is limited to the empirically verifiable, nor religion restricted to the shifting realm of “personal experience”.

    For Christians to accept this faulty line of reasoning would lead to the notion that there is little need to emphasize objective truth in the presentation of the Christian faith, for one need but follow his or her own conscience and choose a community that best suits his or her individual tastes. The result is seen in the continual proliferation of communities which often eschew institutional structures and minimize the importance of doctrinal content for Christian living. “

  75. i have to say…America is a great good where it comes to children.

    surely, you mean the ones that actually make it out of the womb… right? or, the ones that arent strangled, shaken, beaten, flushed… you know, at least for the school-aged ones… right?

  76. Benedicts Italy

    Italy?

  77. Enoch: I’ll let you have the final word on this, because there is no way you and I will see eye-to-eye on this issue.

    Which leaves me with only one thing to say…

    Gameraaaaaa!!!
    Gameraaaaaa!!!
    Gamera is really neat!
    He is filled with turtle meat!
    We believe in GA! Mer! AAAAAaaaa!

  78. oooh! u shud go read crappy ed’s expelled thread at hotair!
    the sandwichboard guys have showed up!

    First off, evolution is non scientific.

    Yet it is force fed to the world as fact.

    Second it is a fact that they have consistently and systematically persecuted,not published,denied tenure and intimidated all dissenting scientists.

    85% of kids who grew up in Christian families and go to public schools, end up leaving Christianity by 12th grade!

    When asked about why they became atheist…they say because “science” disproves the Bible.

    Is there still any question as to whether the non scientific state religion of evolution is satanist or not?

    SaintOlaf on April 18, 2008 at 8:49 PM

  79. ima satanist!!
    hahahaha

  80. Pablo, as the only communicant, and disinclined to proselytize (at least up to now), I’ve seen no reason to name it. Creationist is already taken for something entirely different.

    Its tutelary parable is the Fable of the Blind Men and the Elephant, and if it ever has a cathedral there will be, inscribed above the door, “I know you think you understand what I meant, but what you don’t realize is that what you heard is not what I said.”

    Regards,
    Ric

  81. also the kiddos in the mormon polygamy ranch compond were told ALL the ppl outside were satanists.
    and now they are in satans custody.

    enoch u get soooooo upset about those non-sentient clumps.
    ridikkulous.

    my letter to crappy ed

  82. dicentra – I will not allow ME to have the final word on this! I demand rebuttal!

  83. gamera – i do not get all f^%$ing upset about that type of unadulterated bulls***, dammit all to hell! :|

  84. OK: You’re clinging to your papism because you’re bitter, BITTER, I say. If the factories had not closed down you would welcome the Benevolent Embrace of Mormonism the State.

    It’s an Elitist thing. You wouldn’t understand *

  85. Oh, look. The idiot’s back.

    I heard a great quote the other day, attributed to Churchill. Of course, so many things are

    Anyway, that quote was, “A fanatic is someone who won’t shut up and won’t change the subject.”

  86. no…you dont get it.
    this is a culture war.
    Science and acacdeme vs the christians and the sandwich-board guys and the patriarchial FLDS.
    and the kids all caught in between.

  87. here’s a little better educated sandwich-board guy.

    I do think Darwinism led to Nazism, in a sense. But that’s because I see Nazism as one of many responses to modernism. And Darwin, for good and ill, represents the rise of modern science — along with Einstein and others. Nazism and Communism and Progressivism were all impossible without the industrial revolution, Darwinism, relativism, mechanized warfare, mass production, etc. They were reactionary responses to these things. Those responses amounted to an express rejection of the conservative and libertarian vision of society, which is why they were leftwing.

    the handmaiden’s Tale is closer than u think.
    ;)

  88. Just quickly scanned the responses here; interesting commentary about Mormonism. But can anyone seriously justify these kinds of abusive enclaves in which female children are horribly abused? Half my family is Mormon, and some of them were/are involved in the Arizona City compounds. I think a comparison to Muslim polygamy is inappropriate. Not nearly as creepy as the crypto-Mormon kind.

  89. But can anyone seriously justify these kinds of abusive enclaves in which female children are horribly abused?

    Not really, no. There’s generally a consensus I think, but also it’s not the biggest deal in the world either. These people a lot sorta just failed to get with the program which is a trend towards sorta having more intellectualized religious dogma with a lot less emphasis on having religion be something expressed in discernible lifestyle choices. Megachurches in, “compounds” out. I don’t make the rules.

  90. Was it Malkin or Coulter, who said that “compounds” were what the MSM called the estates of people they hated (the Kennedys excepted)?

  91. Got it. Thanks. No, it’s not the biggest deal. But bear in mind that these polygamist and child abusing offshoots are not a product of some ancient, long-standing religion, but are fairly recent sects that derive their legitimacy from the Church in general. Why they are tolerated at all, I don’t know. Law enforcement can raid a factory full of illegals; why are they so reticent to bust up a commune full of perverse true believers who are also breaking the law?

  92. Oh. Didn’t catch that but you’re right that it’s pretty selectively applied. You don’t want to be one of the compound people is all I know. It goes on your permanent record.

  93. What I don’t know, although it’s probably been written about, is just how much contact with the outside world most of the people had. It reminds me of The Village in many ways. Or maybe the case in Pitcairn that came up a few years ago, that the men regularly forced 12 year olds to have sex. Many of the women on the island stood up for it, and even Colleen McCullough defended it by saying it was the culture for them to “break in their girls”. I don’t know if she would defend this, though.
    It’s difficult to know where the “they knew it was wrong” begins, even though it is illegal. The cult members, I mean. The leaders knew what they were doing.

  94. Good point. That’s why I don’t think it’s a big deal personally. I think a lot my feelings are the same if this is some kooky compound in Texas or something I read about it some old National Geographic at the dentist’s. But I wouldn’t defend it either. Sometimes people what have different mores get squashed. It’s sort of just part of the process, a sort of confluence of time and place and circumstance that can a lot go any which way depending on what mood the people what are the arbiters of this sort of thing are in. I don’t think it’s necessarily a policy issue, or should be, but we have pretty good safeguards for their civil rights and all, eliding Waco.

  95. Comment by cynn on 4/18 @ 8:44 pm #

    Got it. Thanks. No, it’s not the biggest deal. But bear in mind that these polygamist and child abusing offshoots are not a product of some ancient, long-standing religion, but are fairly recent sects that derive their legitimacy from the Church in general. Why they are tolerated at all, I don’t know. Law enforcement can raid a factory full of illegals; why are they so reticent to bust up a commune full of perverse true believers who are also breaking the law?

    Because some but not all in the commune break the law. And to remove a few isn’t the needed final bust up.

    Along with prosecuting the few who are guilty of statutory rape, polygamy and/or child abuse, they need to haul ‘em all off on welfare fraud under some raketerring statute. That’s seems to be the umbrella which all the poly nutters look guilty of.

  96. MayBee, your argument is the same shaky one I thought about. At some point, this becomes the norm, so the 12 year olds should accept this shit as their fate, right? That’s more or less how it was explained to be.

    Break ‘em in. The most insidious excuse for sick abuse masquerading as paternalist control I ever saw.

  97. Out of sight, out of mind though, until it wasn’t.

  98. I can only hope these awful american boils are exposed and popped open; drain and disinfect them. They make my original religion and my nation look idiotic.

  99. nope cynn….polygamy was the standard in the LDS church.
    modern day mormons are descended from polygamists.

    “Following two extensive days of testimony and evidence gathered in the raid beginning April 3 that authorities say shows girls as young as 13 were “spiritually married” to significantly older men, the judge also ordered maternity and paternity DNA testing for each child.
    Investigators testified Thursday that they found a household inside the Texas compound with 22 wives for one man, another with a 13-year-old mother and a third where a 17-year-old girl was married to a 46-year-old man.”

  100. the children were never allowed off the compound.
    they were told everyone on the outside were satanists.

  101. Hi gamera. Did you see Cap’n Ed doubled down today? Now with an italicized preface even. In italics.

  102. they couldn’t go to school outside, you see?
    because a teacher might have turned the FLDS in to child protective services.

  103. Thor, are you suggesting that the few by tolerating an egregious wrong are exonerated from opposing the many’s wrong? Sorry, push meet shove.

  104. yup feets
    my homeslice, the derb, said i shud “brace myself”.
    i think that means Stein is about to get a memetic eviseration.

    i did goldberg myself.

  105. 85% of kids who grew up in Christian families and go to public schools, end up leaving Christianity by 12th grade! When asked about why they became atheist… they say because “science” disproves the Bible.

    This is why it’s really a lot stupid for religious people to frame it as Jesus vs. Darwin I think. But they don’t listen to me, and to the extent scientists encourage this framing, that’s a lot puerile and mean-spirited I think. It ain’t like Highlander you know.

  106. That just goes to prove that Mormons aren’t Christian, because the vast majority of kids in the Church go to public school, and nowhere near 85% of them become atheists.

    That being said, I call “bullshit” on that number. I am betting that the people who “leave” Christianity do so in a typical college freshmanish “I’m so cool and smart. I is educated now, and don’t need to rely on that Christianity crap, like my yokel parents” manner. Which, after about four or five years in the real-world, is completely wrong, and they are neither educated nor smart, but are dumb as, well, college freshmen.

    David

  107. This is a culture war between the voices in nishi’s head.

  108. It would be difficult to watch and read Pope Benedict XVI’s White House Speech and come away with a feeling of having Catholicism rammed down your throat. He speaks with authority, but in such a humble, loving way that, in my opinion, does not look down his nose.

    I mean, he shared the stage with a Methodist. The temple curtain again is torn.

  109. #

    Comment by cynn on 4/18 @ 9:57 pm #

    Thor, are you suggesting that the few by tolerating an egregious wrong are exonerated from opposing the many’s wrong? Sorry, push meet shove.

    Yes. Only the men who had sex with an underage girls can be charged with statutory rape, same for child abuse; that’s related to specific acts that need collaborative testimony. Same for polygamy, it almost requires confessions of such since they can all just say they were dating, not married at all, and out popped these kids.

    If you look at the scheme in its entirety, it seems to me the only crime they state can easily pin on each and every adult is conspiracy to commit or actually committing welfare fraud. Maybe, I don’t know, there’s a racketeering statute that could be used. It looks to me that they are all cooperating in fraud.

    Most of the charges, as bas as they are, need proof per individual criminal act for a conviction.

  110. cynn, I’m drinking my good morning coffee so my thoughts are still jumbled and my fingers slow. I’m thinking of the easiest way to break the farm up for good and I can’t see how the state can do that if so many poly-nuts walk away free to start another polygamist farm somewhere else. The grease that makes their poly farms work is welfare money.

  111. thor, I think we’re the only ones here. Break out that meth man. Don’t be stingy bro.

  112. and not that cheap WalMart stuff, either.

  113. B

    But I only have a few grams cooked up.

    O

    Hate to bogart. When I’m dry I put a Walmart shopping bag over my head until you everything goes dark. After you sag to the ground the bag usually comes off and the fresh air tastes sweeter than Dolly Parton’s tits.

    O

    Ever smoked your toenails? Not as good the toads.

  114. datadave’s around somewhere. Inxnay on the ethmay.

    I’ve got these old Nike “Shaq Thunder” b-ball shoes (size 14, steady ladies) that I wear in the summer for weed-wacking, tile-augering, cattail-pulling, tree-digging, – all very sweaty, swampy work. After, I’ll just pile up a little pond scum on toe area – you know, where it’s got the little vent holes? I light it and stick my nose and mouth into the high-top opening and take a huge hit. I saw Pope John Paul II last time I did it. He was helping me line up a five foot putt and tending the flag, but the flag was really King Otto’s holy lance. Good shit.

  115. Only the men who had sex with an underage girls can be charged

    no cynn, the women will be charged as enablers and accomplices, in that they looked the other way and didnt report crimes.
    the judge has decided ALL the children are at risk, either to become victims or perpetrators.
    this was a community sanctioned and institutionalized criminal practice. the entire community will pay, unless witnesses start to come forward from within the community to finger specific perps and reject FLDS.
    isn’t happening.
    it is a freakshow.
    the media is eating it up.
    Greta was in some sort of frenzied ecstasy last night.
    good thing handsomemormonguy isn’t running right now.

  116. and Cynn is right, the LDS church has utterly rejected polygamy as a practice.
    but the Mormon church was founded on polygamy.
    that is why the FLDS are fundamentalists.

  117. good thing handsomemormonguy isn’t running right now.

    well, well… seems like teh EEEEVIL Pope has ushered some miracles. I find myself agreeing with a gamera sentiment.

  118. well immortalguy-enoch.
    lets say mccain med reports are bad on the 15 May.
    melanoma recurrence, or im correct that there have been more shortterm memory loss incidents, or something.
    what to you guys do?

  119. what do you guys do?

  120. Ooohhhh! We take the name of a fictional animal and post inanities in lower case with no punctuation on the internet. Then maybe cling to guns and antipathy for a while.

  121. I am voting for Bob Barr, can’t speak for anyone else.

  122. i just think a contingency plan might be in order.

  123. haha, pablo i saw u diggin on the Sandwichboard guys over at hotair.
    We are being lied to about our history!

    Now, what are the fruits of the evolutionists lies?

    85% of kids who grow up in a Christian home and go to a public school end up leaving Christianity by the time they are in 12th grade!
    When asked about why they left…they say “Because science disproves the Bible.”
    Is anyone here foolish enough to debate that this is anything but the work of the anti-Christ spirit?
    I have already proven that evolution was a part of sumerian theology and that the sumerians were known followers of the fallen angels.
    Satan has always been the father of lies!

    that St.Olaf, wat a hoot!
    i don’t see u repudiating those guys either…u must believe wat they believe, right?

  124. hehe
    i love John Derbyshire in advance.
    ;)

  125. i don’t see u repudiating those guys either…u must believe wat they believe, right?

    Uh, no. But thank you for such a brilliantly mushheaded example of faulty logical progression. Those are minds that you’ll never change. Talking to them is almost as useless as talking to you.

  126. gamera/nishidiot is a tool.

  127. “but the Mormon church was founded on polygamy.”

    Um, no. That isn’t to say that it wasn’t an early important theological development in the LDS faith. However, the foundations of Mormonism are easy to find. Its in the Book of Mormon and it has to do with Jesus Christ as the author of our Salvation. Interesting enough, the only time polygamy is mentioned in the book is in the negative (although it has been interpreted to allow for its practice IF commanded by God). It has been said that Mormonism was founded on racism as well. Again, no even if there is theological developments that can be defined as such. Most of these statements come from those who either have a limited understanding of Mormon theology and history or have an axe to grind.

    If I was to say what Mormonism was founded on, besides a faith in Christ, it would be the concept of Priesthood authority and continual revelation that is more than the feel good mysticism kind. The Heavens are open and not just a crack. If you want to get even more theologically philosophical, Mormonism was founded on the concept that the Old Testament is as important as the New Testament; even if the average Mormon uses the OT as much as any other Christian.

    My belief is, and this can never be proven, polygamy wouldn’t have been as big a deal in Mormonism if those not of the faith hadn’t made it a big deal. It never was practiced to the degree that the break-off sects make it out to be. Divorce was even allowed (and that was a scandle almost as huge as the polygamy).

    As for the Texas group, I think the government is over-extending its authority in much the same way it did at one time with the Native Americans. As far as I can tell there hasn’t even been any charges filed. No one has been arrested, only taken in a state sponsored kidnapping.

  128. lets say mccain med reports are bad on the 15 May.
    melanoma recurrence, or im correct that there have been more shortterm memory loss incidents

    i am not completely convinced that his melanoma was NOT deep enough to have caused some… erm… brain issues. it is scary to be sure.

  129. i will counter with this, however: what if we find out Obama is a Marxist? Oh, wait…

  130. Melanoma being skin cancer, the odds are quite good that there is no brain issue. While it can and often does metastasize to the brain in the later stages, he’d be dead by now if it had. In fact, if it had metastasized at all, he’d probably be dead by now and certainly wouldn’t be out campaigning for POTUS. Without early detection and treatment, melanoma is very deadly. With it, not so much. The 5 year survival rate for Stage IV (metastasized) melanoma is about 18%. McCain’s cancer, Stage IIA, properly treated has a 78% five year survival rate, and McCain is 8 or 15 years out, depending on how you want to look at it. You can bet that he’s closely monitored for recurrence, so the odds of it getting away are very slim.

  131. pfft
    goldberg says anyone that believes in theory of relativity and theory of evolution is a marxist.
    hes just a sandwichboardguy with a degree.

    I do think Darwinism led to Nazism, in a sense. But that’s because I see Nazism as one of many responses to modernism. And Darwin, for good and ill, represents the rise of modern science — along with Einstein and others. Nazism and Communism and Progressivism were all impossible without the industrial revolution, Darwinism, relativism, mechanized warfare, mass production, etc. They were reactionary responses to these things. Those responses amounted to an express rejection of the conservative and libertarian vision of society, which is why they were leftwing.

    according to goldberg, ur prolly all marxists too? or facists at the least.

  132. enoch, that is why there should be a backup.
    anti-mormon hostility in the repub grassroots (paulites and huckacons) caused handsomemormonguy to be knocked before he stepped in the ring almost.
    IJS the repub think tanks better have a backup plan.
    or u might end up with Huck.

  133. knocked out

  134. i think the mccain/age issue has more legs than a colorado centipede.

  135. see….i think O will likely win because he has grassroots support.
    that is why he killed HRC in the caucuses.
    and huck and paul did surprisingly well in their caucuses. becuz they have grassroots support.
    hopefully mccains backup will be someone that can generated some grassroots support.

  136. and huck and paul did surprisingly well in their caucuses. becuz they have grassroots support.

    And where are they now?

  137. I see the nishidiot is back to lying to try to troll. Or maybe she’s not lying — just not capable of comprehending plain English.

    That would explain the obvious borderline retardation expressed in her writing style…

  138. And where are they now?

    Why, they’re the “Plan B” ticket in nishtoon’s fevered imagination.

  139. Backing up Jettboy:

    Polygamy was introduced quite late in the game, if by late we’re talking about the life of Joseph Smith. His own record shows that once he got the revelation, he was loathe to carry it out, and God had to threaten to take him out before he went ahead with it.

    Furthermore, the Book of Mormon makes it clear that the standing order regarding marriage is monogamy, with polygamy being something God might command his people to do when rapid repopulation is necessary. It’s a spigot that God can turn on or off, depending on circumstances.

    The FLDS believe that polygamy is necessary for salvation; we LDS do not.

    I’ll refer you to a post over at Muslihoon’s, where in the comments I describe some of the differences between how the early Mormons administered polygamy and how the FLDS do it.

    Also, I point out something that most people don’t know: Joseph Smith had plenty of kids with his first wife, Emma. With the others, none. So yeah, he was a real lust-monkey.

  140. splitting hairs
    descended from polygamists
    who cares?

    the FLDS perps believe they are reverting to “pure” mormonism.
    im sure they can justify it.
    t’isnt about polygamy anyways. the FLDS have only one legal wife.

    the raid was about child abuse, about treating children as frackin property.
    about 13 year olds being impregnated.
    and moved back and forth across the border.

    how is this different from trafficking in underage female sex slaves?
    because the FLDS religion sanctions it?

  141. here, mcgeehee

    and here

    it is kinda telling that you guys cant even come up with a single name.

  142. the FLDS perps believe they are reverting to “pure” mormonism.

    And you believe you’re a muslim evolutionist. People believe all sorts of crazy shit.

  143. it is kinda telling that you guys cant even come up with a single name.

    For what? To make you feel better about McCain’s medical report?

    Why would we — many of whom won’t even be voting for McCain in November in any event — feel compelled to do that?

  144. She couldn’t even get the kossacks to rag on McCain’s health and age.

  145. It’s pretty obvious she inhabits a universe that isn’t quite exactly “parallel” to this one.

  146. You know who else was a polygamist? Barack Obama, Sr.

    nishi may be on to something, here. BO Sr. died at 44 when he was drunk driving. Barack’s mom died at 53 of cancer. If Barack is like either of his parents, he’ll die young and not finish his term. There should be another name on the Dem list, in case it turns out Barack is a drunk or is precancerous.

  147. Not to mention that he’s gonna get lead poisoning.

    BECAUSE OF TEH RACISM!!!!

  148. Comment by gamera on 4/19 @ 6:49 am #

    Only the men who had sex with an underage girls can be charged

    no cynn, the women will be charged as enablers and accomplices, in that they looked the other way and didnt report crimes.

    No, gamerishi, they didn’t throw everyone in the Manson family in jail on nothing more than whose name was found sewn into a sleeping bag. What of the of-age women who only birthed one child, you can’t charge ‘em for trying for more and failing! With sex comes puppies.

  149. The LDS has long ago disassocited itself with the polygamist kooks. Now it looks like some nutso Colorado Springs woman might have set off the whole mess. Go figure.

  150. It seems strange to me that all of the children and mothers were forced to leave their homes in a fundamentalist compound in Texas, because of a phone call by one girl whose name is not known and who claims she was abused by a man who some say was never at the compound. What was the rush? Authorities have known for generations about the polygamist’s activities in the southwest, including the practice of young girls being forced to marry older men. Why, until now, have authorities winked and looked the other way instead of implementing consistent investigation and prosecution of illegal acts? Why didn’t the authorities arrest the man the girl claimed abused her and leave the rest of the women and children at peace in their homes, while the authorities sorted things out?

    Who made the decision to arrest the women and children who were either innocent of any crime or victims of a crime? What law gives anyone the authority to arrest victims and/or potential victims? Why didn’t they just assign guards to protect the mothers and children in their own homes, if they thought they were in some danger?

    Will US government officials authorize raiding any of the many Muslim compounds scattered around the USA, even if some girl calls in and claims her husband is abusing her, or if officials claim they get such a call? After all some Muslims practice polygamy and force young girls to marry old men. Neighbors who have objected to the activities at nearby Muslim compounds throughout the US should now know they can have a girl call authorities and claim she is in the compound, underage and being abused, then authorities might actually consider checking out the compound.

    Will a raid actually be made against a Muslim compound in the US at this time, even if it contained men abusing underage wives? No, such a raid would be politically incorrect and besides Muslims might kill whoever authorized and carried out the raid. But things may change.

    Does anyone know what percent of the income of the Texas polygamists came from welfare payments? I read that in England all of an unemployed Muslim’s wives qualify for welfare payments. It seems to me that groups breaking the law by practicing polygamy should not receive welfare payments. But I guess I’m a little old fashioned for believing that people should not be rewarded for breaking laws. It will be interesting to see how this works out.

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