Seems that a 87% disapproval rate (source: some poll I saw on CNN while sitting in an airport bar) will take the starch out of even the most boneheaded ideas being pushed by certain Democrats. From The Times Union:
Struggling with widespread opposition to his driver’s licensing policy, Gov. Eliot Spitzer is scheduled to huddle with New York’s congressional delegation today in Washington and disclose that he is ditching the controversial plan.
“I am not willing to fight to the bitter end on something that will not ultimately be implemented,” the governor told The New York Times, “and we also have an enormous agenda on other issues of great importance to New York state that was being stymied by the constant and almost singular focus on this issue.”
Christine Anderson, the governor’s communications director, also confirmed late Tuesday that the governor had decided to withdraw the initiative he and the Department of Motor Vehicles have defended for two months.
The move by Spitzer was the subject of wide speculation on Tuesday, with even supporters of the governor saying it made sense for him to give up the fight because of the long odds of winning over the public and the political harm being done to the Democratic Party, including presidential hopeful Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
And of course, rule number one of Democratic politics is do no harm…to a Clinton.
They keep files, you know.
And Hillary, bless her, is now officially against the idea. After being for it. And then kinda in between. Until the poll numbers really tanked. At which point, well, you know how it goes.
So put paid to this steaming pile of bullshit.
Speculation that the governor would do an about-face has mounted in recent days and grew stronger Tuesday after the second Siena Research Institute poll in two months showed New Yorkers overwhelmingly oppose the governor’s concept of providing driver’s licenses to people lacking documents for staying in the United States.
The latest poll suggests that the governor’s popularity has fallen dramatically because of his policy, Siena poll spokesman Steven Greenberg said. One of the 23 questions put to voters was whether the governor’s handling of the driver’s license issue increased or decreased his approval rating. Of those polled, 52 percent said it had eroded their view of the first-term Democrat.
Who could’ve seen that coming? Sure, liberal New Yorkers often tell us how it was they who were attacked by terrorists — and so they have a moral authority to speak out against the President’s global war strategy, or his use of the NSA to monitor terror cells.
But those issues play to abstract notions of right and wrong, and because there are almost no immediate or proximate consequences for protesting such policies or programs, many liberal Democrats have decided that they can get more mileage out of buying a bit of cheap grace than making tough decisions about how best to stop global terrorism, or how best to defend against an enemy that is entrenched inside the US, and who uses our open system against us.
Here, though, the issue is more proximate — and hits far closer to home. And so these same New Yorkers, being pragmatists at heart, have done the calculations and have decided that Spitzer’s program, which would provide driver’s licenses to illegals, puts them in far greater danger — either physically (granting a state privilege to criminals emboldens them) or economically (the inevitable increased influx of illegals into the state would put a drain on social services, and result in higher taxes and an overburdened infrastructure).
See also, Washington Times.
****
update: Clinton pressured Spitzer to drop the plan? Pshaw, I say.
Everyone knows Eliot is his own man.
Sorry. I refuse to believe it. I mean, is there no one left to guard us from evil?
(h/t STACLU)
Jeff, any thoughts on the Tancredo “illegals lead to mall bombings” ad? Assuming you’ve seen it, of course.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/14/video-andy-levy-calls-tancredos-scare-ad-disgusting/
First, do not harm, to the Clintons. That is an excellent observation. What I find most amusing about it is that Bill and Hillary work so hard to become “centrists”, that the actual Left continues to give them a pass, as they know it is nothing other than campaign rhetoric. Look at how quickly the whole Hsu thing blew over. It literally never even became a ripple, despite their history and despite Hsu being a fugitive from the law. The active complicity by the media, coupled with the palpable fear of the Clintons from within their own party is what scares me the most about her winning.
“…people lacking documents for staying in the United States…”
You just can’t make this shit up.
Might I suggest “premature citizens” as the next step?
Makes a lot of sense to use identification documents and drivers licenses for, well, identification and licensing drivers. But making sense isn’t good politics.
“…people lacking documents for staying in the United States…â€Â, migrant workers, “premature citizens”, undocumented workers, economically exploited classes … the list goes on and on and on. Heaven forfuckingbid they are called what they are – people who are illegal aliens.
Given the Leftist positions on polls, shouldn’t the Dem Congress and Spitzer step down or be impeached right about now?
Right, andy. We should be handing government sanctiioned identification to illegal aliens. Your fucking stupidity gives me a headache. Even Spitzer finally realized that he was too far to the Left. Hillary kind of thought so, before she didn’t, which was before she was not sure. You, I guess, would advise Spitzer to simply tack further to the Left.
“Makes a lot of sense to use identification documents and drivers licenses for, well, identification and licensing drivers.”
Identification documents? Like passports and workers visa’s? We are all for it, andy.
It takes 40 different kinds of identification to legally renew a drivers license, and yet Spitzer wants to just hand them out to illegal aliens? Doesn’t he have some BS class action suit to file against some horrible company?
Note in all of this how he does not acknowledge that this was a freaking mistake. Bad timing perhaps. This will rear its ugly head again, to be sure.
Jeff, I’ll offer you 250 to 1 odds this comes back up after the election ($1 limit and if I lose the $250 goes in your tip jar)
oops, I meant to say it comes back up within 1 year after the election.
The most liberal news outlets – the NYT and NPR – are losing shocking amounts of audience. Newspapers are most telling cause while the whole category is down, it is the more liberal papers that are shedding eyeballs most dramatically. NPR is getting kicked in the teeth as well. You shouldn’t expect to see that discussed in too many places, but there’s a sea-change underway that’s unprecedented. So what I mean is take heart and all that… it’s not just what they’re doing wrong, this Internet thing is doing something right.
“Identification documents? Like passports and workers visa’s? We are all for it, andy.”
Those also double as immigration documents, so it makes sense to use them for immigration purposes too. But I don’t think visas are, by themselves, good for identification.
Hey guys, join Ace of Spades Morons in suggesting events for the leftist calendar in Olympia. They need help coming up with events to fight the war!
Seriously. You can edit edit the calendar to add events. For now, at least. Ace guys have been having lots of fun.
So how do you plan on giving them identification, andy? Are you going to just take Sergei’s word at the BMV? When Salim and Almutanabi give their identifying information, should the BMV just accept that, and give them a drivers license? When Fidel tries to obtain his license, should they just check the organ donor box and let him go?
Oh sure, they keep files.
They just can’t always find them right away.
BMV is funny.
“So how do you plan on giving them identification, andy? Are you going to just take Sergei’s word at the BMV?”
Woah. you’re right. unlike americans, there is no way we can tell who foreigners are. Another good reason the politics on this is so bad.
Ah. Looky here.
Birth certificates are bound to be the most-forged documents in the United States; courthouses burn down all the time (although it’s getting harder lately). But a real, genuine, current and valid New York driver’s license, well, if you’ve got one of those, fill in the blanks and Bob’s your uncle (and an upstanding citizen).
andy, if you don’t see that that is the purpose behind all this pontificating you’re stupider than you seem, and that’s going pretty far.
Regards,
Ric
Don’t challenge andy’s stupidity. It’s part of his charm.
“Birth certificates are bound to be the most-forged documents in the United States; courthouses burn down all the time (although it’s getting harder lately)”
So you need a birth certificate in the name of the your identity card. How hard is it to get an identity card with a birth certificate? Vermont lets you prove your identity with a birth certificate plus another document, like an employer ID card or a health insurance card, or marriage certificate:
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/DMV/LICENSES/PROOFOFIDREQUIRED.htm
nice huh?
Being the Patron Saint of Lost Causes, I mourn at my inability to save young andy.
I have no intention of challenging andy’s stupidity. I’m celebrating it.
Regards,
Ric
Whoops sorry that was supposed to be on the post above this :/
Uh… damn the man and his ID cards!
Ric – It is clear that andy revels in it, so I agree, we should celebrate his overt and unyielding stupidity.
For andy, stupidity is the highest form of patriotism.
You know, andy, I don’t think you particularly enjoy being called “stupid”. Of course you’re so egocentric it just bounces off.
Spitzer put this proposal forward using very simple reasoning: illegal aliens are driving, and anyone who’s driving should have a driver’s license; therefore we should have a mechanism for examining the driving skills of illegal aliens and either giving them licenses or not, according to whether or not they can drive safely. And you, with the wide-eyed innocence that is your trademark here, perpetuate this reasoning.
Of course, it’s a damnable, palpable, bald-faced lie. The political class in the United States is bound and fucking determined to legitimize the illegals, and the whole Spitzer proposal was conceived and designed as an end-around method to accomplish that. They are, of course, amazed and resentful that anybody should question their wisdom in doing so, and you and many others — most definitely including the “news” people — are doing their damnedest to work around the objections by all sorts of tactics, most commonly by doing long tear-jerking screeds in which the word “illegal” never appears, and by pulling Trojan Horse stunts like Spitzer’s. The trouble you are running into is that the country, as a whole, is against it, and what worries me is not so much the likelihood that it will succeed as it is the possible backlash.
If the United States Constitution could be amended by plebiscite, there would be people organizing one, and by February of next year at the latest there would be a new amendment essentially repealing Amendment XIV, section 1. And that would be a fucking tragedy of monumental proportions. Since you have never studied any history other than the Marxist-distorted gobbledygook peddled nowadays, you are doubtless unaware that Amendment XIV is one of the most important pieces of law in the United States, and in the world. When it came about originally it was incredibly innovative — especially in Europe, it was perfectly possible for a person to be born, live a full life, and die, without being a citizen of any polity, and therefore to be cut off completely from any access to the political process other than murdering politicians. Even more of them were citizens of the country they lived in, but not of their city or local jurisdiction, making them second class or worse “citizens” with little or no voice. Even today, we see a de facto version of that in the status of people of Turkish (i.e., Middle Eastern) ethnicity in Germany and France, and it’s one of the things that causes trouble over there — trouble we don’t have in that degree because we don’t allow that status to exist.
And if you and your allies keep up your campaign, you are not going to convince anybody of anything — Hell, you aren’t even trying to convince anybody; you’re simply throwing up a blizzard of lies and obfuscations designed to let you put a program two-thirds of the American people absolutely reject, and a further sixth don’t care for even though they’d accept it if forced. Lies like Spitzer’s claim about why driver’s licenses are part of that campaign. It isn’t working, it isn’t gonna work, and you and the rest had damned well better back off before you push people into a corner and generate something genuinely disastrous.
Regards,
Ric
Lou Dobbs just told me that Spitzer has not backed off the plan to remove visa expiration dates from legal aliens’ drivers’ licenses because to have them on there is “pejorative”.
“Of course, it’s a damnable, palpable, bald-faced lie. The political class in the United States is bound and fucking determined to legitimize the illegals, and the whole Spitzer proposal was conceived and designed as an end-around method to accomplish that.”
Like I said, Its something that makes sense, but the politics aren’t good like that.
“If the United States Constitution could be amended by plebiscite, there would be people organizing one, and by February of next year at the latest there would be a new amendment essentially repealing Amendment XIV, section 1. And that would be a fucking tragedy of monumental proportions.”
I don’t think people are in a hurry to get rid of due process and equal protection. But thanks for your work for those principles.
“Since you have never studied any history other than the Marxist-distorted gobbledygook peddled nowadays, you are doubtless unaware that Amendment XIV is one of the most important pieces of law in the United States, and in the world. When it came about originally it was incredibly innovative  especially in Europe, it was perfectly possible for a person to be born, live a full life, and die, without being a citizen of any polity, and therefore to be cut off completely from any access to the political process other than murdering politicians.”
Doesn’t Ackerman call these “constitutional momements”? I agree with that sort of take on it. I think it was more than just tacking on a few more amendments. I think it was a fundamental rewriting of what rights citizens have. Thanks to Yankee destruction of southern treason.
“Like I said, Its something that makes sense…”
Those two things don’t automatically go together, you know.
“Doesn’t Ackerman call these “constitutional momementsâ€Â
I rest my case.
I am stunned and amazed, but I must agree with the xenophobes here.
Even today, we see a de facto version of that in the status of people of Turkish (i.e., Middle Eastern) ethnicity in Germany and France, and it’s one of the things that causes trouble over there  trouble we don’t have in that degree because we don’t allow that status to exist.
Isn’t that like the status of Koreans in Japan? There for generations, but no citizenship?
cynn – Xenophobes? Care to explain?
Aww, andy, it’s too bad this site doesn’t allow avatars. Yours could be a cartoon of a big-eyed kitten saying “who me? of course I wuv you”. But I’ll give you this: you’re damned persistent. When you decide to lie, you’re gonna lie until well past the point of profitability — as is made obvious by the fact that you’re apparently gonna stick to the story that the Spitzer proposal has something to do with regularizing the driver’s license process in the Empire State right down to the bitter end. And as long as you do I’m gonna keep calling you on it. That’s a lie, and you’re a liar.
I don’t think so either — but the first sentence is:
And if you and your fellows persist in this, it is my opinion that the American people could be convinced to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is my argument, fuckhead. I see you and others arguing that illegal immigrants are likely to turn to violence if their demands aren’t met. Does it not occur to you that the same principle might apply when the political class tells three-quarters of American voters to fuck off and die?
Regards,
Ric
andy – Here are a few words of wisdom, though I suspect that anvil on your shoulders will ignore it, as it appears intent on remaining impervious to rational thought … Ric is probably the single nicest person you will run across on the internet. He also happens to be one of the smartest. Scary smart. Beyond Rain Man kind of smart. Spooky even. That you have managed to engage him in conversation, and have managed to get him mad enough to call you by the right name, fuckhead, should give you pause. It will not, but it should.
Hi cynn. There you are. I noticed you were gone away so now I am noticing that you are not gone away.
Jeff, you didn’t include it in your pull quotes, but I’m sure you must have noticed that Spitzer came right out and said that he’d revisit this when the furor dies down. They’re like the undead. Too bad silver is so expensive.
“Too bad silver is so expensive.”
Enchanted weapons work too, if there are any Sorcerers in your clan.
Oh shit, wrong forum…
Ric’s point is well taken. Push something ridiculous too hard (like that the US, alone among nations, must accept open borders and rampant lawbreaking with regards to immigration), and the backlash could be bad. Really bad.
cynn, you’re a remarkable person. Sometimes you seem like somebody who reasonably disagrees with me, and others you just get straight up my nose.
That’s another damnable, palpable, bald-faced lie, and you are either a liar yourself or a fool repeating the lies of cynics.
I have not read the posts of anybody here who comes close to meeting the definition of “xenophobe”, and the closest approach comes from people who appear to be on your side of the question who seem convinced that Mexican immigrants constitute a readily-exploited underclass. Not many people here go as far as I do, I suppose — I want every one of those people here, right down to the autistic teenagers, the La Raza organizers, the cholera-soaked kids, and the murderers and rapists (whom we ought to hang, in order to benefit both countries). They’re not just valuable, they’re needed. But I want them here as part of an orderly legal process in which both they and we have our rights preserved, and our privileges are continued to the extent possible in both cases.
And we can do it. It’s really too bad, you know, that you folks’s determination to establish that BUSH WRECKED THE ECONOMY doesn’t let you make the one argument that would be most likely to get the illegals accepted; viz., that over the last decade we have absorbed almost a tenth of our population of largely-uneducated immigrants, and done so while maintaining under five percent unemployment and a continued increase in disposable personal income. For the country as a whole the immigrants don’t cost, they pay, but that whole line of argument is closed to you so long as you’re still shouting RECESSION IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER.
But doing it illegally isn’t working, because it’s throwing a disproportionate burden on people who can’t carry it. Here in Texas the border counties are getting to the point where no health care is available at all, from the burden of supporting the illegals. And that’s just the most visible effect. All across the country, in ways that are sometimes too subtle to be immediately apparent, the illegals are placing a crushing burden not on the upper class and political class, but on the truck drivers, welders, plumbers, concrete finishers, and carpenters — people who are barely making ends meet as it stands, and are being taxed to subsidize the people who keep their wages low. It’s got nothing to do with color, race, or “otherness”. It would be the same problem with the same number of 6’2″, blond, blue-eyed, big-breasted illegal immigrants (though the effects might be directed differently), and that — not “xenophobia” — is what is causing the backlash.
I know it’s comfortingly self-validating for you to put your nose in the air and dismiss the concerns of the people you consider of no account in the first place. But you are fooling yourself, and not presenting a pretty picture while you do so.
Regards,
Ric
I do not really feel to sorry for the people of New York. They elected Spitzer, despite knowing that he is El Grande Culebra. They elected Bloomberg too. And Hillary. And Schumer. It shows a remarkable lack of common sense, for an otherwise sane and intelligent people.
Hey, first off, #3 and #15 above: LOL. Great lines. I will steal both and use them at the next cocktail bash.
Re the topic, yes it’s lefty-ish to want to give DLs to our premature citizens, in that the reasons given are lefty-ish, and some of those sanctuary-city type of people actually believe it. That it’s racist not to, that we should bring the oppressed Other into the system, that accommodating crimial behavior will make us safer.
But the big reason is the vote fraud. IMO. At least that’s the main reason actual public officials, not the sob-sisters, but people in a position to actually do something about it and who also SHOULD KNOW BETTER AFTER 9/11 (!!1!) would actually try to implement such a dangerous idea. They would only be tempted to go so far if it would gain them power. I even bet New York has motor voter registration and/or election day registration.
That they’d would call opponents of this racist or xenophobic, while dismissing the profound national security risks, shows they cannot be trusted to run the country. They’d put getting elected over preventing terrorist, not to mention criminal, infiltration of our country to a high degree.
Should Immigration be a cabinet-level position? As in the Department of Immigration? Has anyone suggested that?
It just seems a rather ill-defined topic is all. Like it could really use an org chart.
It would not surprise me if I should live to see the appointment of a federal Secretary of Barber Shop and Beauty Salon Standards.
Which, if Miss Johnnie gets elected in 2008, won’t require me to live past 50.
Well, Ric’s 10% figure is kind of compelling, so I just wanted to throw that out.
McGehee – Those have not yet become federalized, but they are certainly state regulated already. I used to go to an old time barber, who still did the shaves with the steam towels and the straight razors. The state decided one had to be properly licensed, and he did not meet one of the qualifications. Since he had been doing this for over 50 years, rather than go out and do whatever was required to fit into some bureaucrats definition of who could be a licensed barber, he just quit advertising that service, and now only offers that to long time customers, which has hurt his business, a lot.
“But I’ll give you this: you’re damned persistent. When you decide to lie, you’re gonna lie until well past the point of profitability  as is made obvious by the fact that you’re apparently gonna stick to the story that the Spitzer proposal has something to do with regularizing the driver’s license process in the Empire State right down to the bitter end.”
Just because *I* think something is sensical doesn’t mean thats why politicians are doing those things.
“I don’t think so either  but the first sentence is:”
Oh i see. you didn’t mean all of sec 1.
“And if you and your fellows persist in this, it is my opinion that the American people could be convinced to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is my argument, fuckhead. ”
I have heard of a couple of asshole xenophobes argue against birthright citizenship. But I’m sure together can defeat them.
Sometimes politicians don’t follow the wishes of the people because they actually respect those people.
And,
MikeC – It is apparent that the people quoted have little to no respect for their constituents.
Could be one reason the press conference was held in DC and not NYC.
“Spitzer’s plan was defeated by what Serrano calls “the hate in this country toward immigrants right now.—
Is he talking about this?
http://www.oyate.org/resources/longthanks.html
“Wishing doesn’t make it so. ”
Thats my point from the start. The politics on this keep this from happening. No matter how much it makes sense or people wish that it happen.
“No matter how much it makes sense or people wish that it happen.”
You really are fucking dense, aren’t you?
At the end of Heinlein’s Have Space Suit, Will Travel the protagonist, Kip Russel, really has saved the world under circumstances that require that to remain secret. Back in his normal life he is being hassled by “Ace”, an annoying customer, and finally blows up:
“Let’s get this straight. I don’t charge for world saving, and I don’t do it to order — it just happens. I’m not sure I’d do it on purpose, with you in it.”
If we ever meet, I’ll try to have a chocolate malt handy.
Regards,
Ric
perhaps one could explain how it makes sense? cause I’m not seeing it. unless we’re going to deport illegals that try to get licenses. (IT’S A TRAP!!!) their being here illegally and all….
Birthright citizenship is the product of mistaken interpretation. Fixing it wouldn’t even require a change in the law or a sessionin court, just a change in policy.
Xenophobic? I guess if you can wrongly interpret the laws onthis, you can wrongly assign a label too. At least you’re consistently wrong.
Nady, you’ve repeated you impression that giving driver’s licenses to illegal alient makes sense. You have yet to articulate, here anyway, in what way that makes sense to you. I’m having difficulty fathoming the sense to be derived in it, so perhaps you’d be good enough to explain?
I’m late, but want to note for the record that Ackerman’s theory of “constitutional moments” exists largely for the Left to claim legitimacy for making radical changes to the Republic without amending the Constitution.
oh, and here I thought he’d mis-typed “monuments”. right… going to sleep now.
So, basically, andy believes we should reward people who commit fraud on a continual basis.
Whatever happened to the concept of equality under the law? If I committed fraud once, I’d be facing the courts.
Next up: government-sanctioned illegal identification, complete with passport, driver’s license, and credit cards, so that your international fugitive from the law will be a properly documented driver.
Because we care.
Not by themselves, no, but if you consider where the visa is placed, that there is a good, legal identification. It’s called a passport. For Green Cards, the green card itself is a photo ID.
But for the license itself, most (if not all) states permit resident or nonresident aliens to obtain a license, provided they possess the proper documentation. This is from Florida’s DMV pages:
It sounds as if andy is for some kind of blanket amnesty, in which case each undocumented alien ought to become documented, first. Pretending that they aren’t illegals? Not so good of an approach.
The laughs, they keep a-comin’:
Yeah, they sure are hostages. No one grabbed them against their will, and no one’s stopping them from leaving. But they’re hostages alright.
Before I even read the other comments, I must say:
“Spitster” is a fascist dickhead, and anyone who follows the news knew it long before he was elected. This man thought he was bringing the intimidating power of the AG to the governorship, and ran into a shitstorm of reality.
Governors can’t indict, Eliot(?), you stupid fucking moron…Oops! What is a bully to do now? AHA! We can kiss her majesty’s ass (or thighs, whichever is easier). Maybe THAT will unflush the toilet..
He is nothing but a giant prick who is just finding out that he really DOES need permission to fuck somebody on a whim. He is one unbelieveably arrogant asshole.
Jeez! I hope nobody gets the idea that I don’t like that egotistical absolute piece of shit…
Scariest, however, is the fact that there are enough ignorant people (i.e. – Dems) in NYC to ride roughshod over the rest of the state. And it’s not just there, it’s happening all over the country. Urban areas are swamping the people who oil the economic engine of the states when it comes to elections. The Dems just swoop into the cities and say: “Can’t speak English? Cool. We’ll send a bus to pick you up on election day”.
If this were golf, would we call my post a “slice”?
RDub –
Checked out your link and was once again reminded of how AWESOME FNC’s newsbabes are. No other news organization can even kiss their incredibly beautiful feet…
And don’t call me a sexist, because I don’t bother with sex anymore. Ergo – how could I be sexist?
“It sounds as if andy is for some kind of blanket amnesty, in which case each undocumented alien ought to become documented, first.”
The document in the “undocumented” refers to immigration papers. I’m saying that having identification papers shouldn’t mean one gets legal immigration status. Its just identification — who you are. Not your status. But like I said, the politics is not good.
States? States!? You mean those penny-ante jurisdictions that tried to secede so they could continue to have slavery!!!??? THOSE states??????
</Democrat>
“Thematic hostages”?
Geeze, no wonder they tossed his ass.
#57 RTO Trainer — it took me a while to figure it out, too, and I don’t think andy is introspective enough to be able to answer you.
andy imagines that it is possible to live in Theory — you know: “Everything works in theory.” This attitude is closely related to the Democrats’ insistence on plans. You are sure to solve the problem if you have a plan to solve the problem, in Theory.
In Theory, a driver’s license has nothing to do with ID or citizenship. Driving is a moderately complex skill employing some dangerous equipment; in Theory, the Government examines potential drivers for the necessary skills and proper attitudes, and gives permission (“license”) to drive to the ones who demonstrate sufficient ability. Therefore, in Theory, a driver’s license should be given to those (and only those) who are good enough drivers, with no other considerations applied. Spitzer’s proposal would make perfect sense in Theory, and andy’s regrets that [t]he politics on this keep this from happening… and having identification papers shouldn’t mean one gets legal immigration status are simply sighs of frustration. It would be so nice to live in Theory.
It’s merely another example of how the “reality-based community” actually works. andy is “based” in reality in the same way you and your friends are “based” at CENTCOM in Orlando. Their FOA tends to be a little distant from “base” in most cases.
Regards,
Ric
What made the politics “not good”, andy? I’m guessing a couple of things:
1) Motor Voter Law
2) “Who you are” is a person currently breaking the law. Having an ID that says that is, from anyone’s perspective, not good.
If you have other things that you think make the politics “not good”, please share, because just noting time after time that “the politics is not good” is spectacularly uninformative.
Andy lives to uninform.
Ric – you should just ignore andy. why you ask? Two words: “Balloon Fence”.
Dems play with polls!
Three-quarters of those polled think the President is stupid and evil. They are the enlightened majority to whom we should listen.
Seven-eighths of those polled think that granting legal ID to illegal immigrants is stupid and evil. They are the unenlightened xenophobic redneck ignorant racist fucks to whom we should not listen.
Wanna see some really cool cognitive dissonance? Ask your favorite poll-watcher to explain the overlap.
I thnk you’re right Ric.
And I’d even argue, if what you postulate is correct, that the theory is sound.
Thare are hundreds, if not thousands, of laws involved with driving correctly. If an individual has demosntrated a casual acquaintance with the law already, especially large scale law, what expectation can reasonably be held that they’ll give a da*n about rights of way, turn signals, and passing on the right?
…so, until andy deigns to answer, I’m guessing that we could compromise with an ID that’s NOT a license, that certifies that the picture on the ID is, in fact, a visual representation of the person having their picture taken. The name is irrelevant, though, because no one’s going to check anything as incriminating as a birth certificate.
Optional address, possibly, but you wouldn’t want to give the feds a place to look.
Slart, andy will no more give a clear, concise, and topical answer than actus, monkeyboy, or Timmy/neoconssuck. The reason for that is clear that when he/she/bot does try that, a proposal such as the “Balloon Fence” or the “Chinese Shipping Container Invasion Army” comes out.
Snipe, express feelings, and dodge are the only ‘debate’ tactics andy has.
And yet, it is through such arguments that we hone our own thinking and convert the undecided. Don’t tell the trolls that, though; they think they’re doing good for their side by distracting and upsetting us. If they ever learn about the unintended consequences of their strategery, their heads might explode.
Oh, who am I kidding? These people wouldn’t recognize an unintended consequence even after they’d been bitten on the ass by one.
The trolls do help, especially if they can form coherent and logical thoughts. andy is just a contrarian, that poses mindless questions attempting to divert the conversation whenever he backs himself into a rhetorical corner.
Slart,
ONLY if that form of ID were only usable for identify oneslef to authorites for purpose of establishg that the individual has a permanent residence.
If it can be used as a form of ID for any other purpose, such as Social Security, establishing legal age for purchase of restricted items (allergy medicine, alcohol, tobacco), obtaining senior citizen’s discounts, employment, enrolling in school, or anything else then absolutly not.
And befor any of the usual suspects throw aroudn the word zenophobe again, I want full disclosure first–how many of you have so much as attended a naturalization ceremony? The issue is not immigration. The issue is illegality.
I’m an admitted zenophobe. Zeno’s paradox drives me absolutely halfway up the wall. And then halfway up the rest of the wall.
Admit it, RTO Trainer: you’re just trying to disenfranchise the disenfranchised.
I’ll cop to that. More precisely, I’m trying to prevent those not entitled to a franchise from stealing one.
Yeah. That starts with ‘x’ doesn’t it? (blush)
In theory, I’d be the pefect match for both Jessica Alba and Jessica Biel and should be able to date/mate with both simultaneously. So let it be written, so let it me be done.
“If it can be used as a form of ID for any other purpose, such as Social Security, establishing legal age for purchase of restricted items (allergy medicine, alcohol, tobacco), obtaining senior citizen’s discounts, employment, enrolling in school, or anything else then absolutly not.”
The idea is that an ID would serve as identification. Other things serve as your eligibility for these other things. For example, you need to do more than identify yourself to obtain employment, you need to show that you are eligible for employment by proving immigration status. However, for purchasing alcohol, all you need to show is your age. Not even that, you just need to show you are over 21.
There’s a lot of neat theory on identification and authentication like this. Kim Cameron at microsoft talks about their identity metasystem work on his blog sometimes:
http://www.identityblog.com/
When was the last time you applied for a job?
Have you never filled out an I-9? Go here. Look at page 4. See what the real world requirements for “proving” your employment eligibility.
Recognize that once you have a DL, getting many of those other documents is easy becasue it’s all that’s required. And the SSA card is far from counterfeit proof.
Here’s a practical experiment for you: leave your driver’s license at home and walk to teh nearest convenience store with just your birth certificate. Show it to the clerk to purchase beer or cigarettes and see how far it gets you.
“Have you never filled out an I-9? Go here. Look at page 4. See what the real world requirements for “proving†your employment eligibility.”
Yup. They distinguish between proof of identity and proof of employment eligibility. I knew an immigrant whose social security card said “not valid for employment” because he got it when he wasn’t eligible for employment.
“Here’s a practical experiment for you: leave your driver’s license at home and walk to teh nearest convenience store with just your birth certificate. Show it to the clerk to purchase beer or cigarettes and see how far it gets you.”
I could show him my non drivers identity card. Or he could just tell i’m old enough without seeing my identity.
And the points of both blow right past him.
Not to worry; he keeps his feathers numbered for just such an emergency.
“And the points of both blow right past him.”
I get the points. It fits right in: identification is different than employment eligibility. You can’t just get a social security card with an ID document. You also need to prove eligibility for that.
good URL!!!!!!!!!!!!