The question of what to do in Iraq today must be separated from the decision to topple Saddam Hussein four and a half years ago. That decision is a matter for historians. By any normal ethical standard, the coalition’s current project in Iraq is a just one. Britain, America and Iraq’s other allies are there as the guests of an elected government given a huge mandate by Iraqi voters under a legitimate constitution. The UN approved the coalition’s role in May 2003, and the mandate has been renewed annually since then, most recently this August. Meanwhile, the other side in this war are among the worst people in global politics: Baathists, the Nazis of the middle east; Sunni fundamentalists, the chief opponents of progress in Islam’s struggle with modernity; and the government of Iran. Ethically, causes do not come much clearer than this one.
Some just wars, however, are not worth fighting. There are countries that do not matter very much to the rest of the world. Rwanda is one tragic example; and its case illustrates the immorality of a completely pragmatic foreign policy. But Iraq, the world’s axial country since the beginning of history and all the more important in the current era for probably possessing the world’s largest reserves of oil, is no Rwanda. Nor do two or three improvised explosive devices a day, for all the personal tragedy involved in each casualty, make a Vietnam.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 11:23 am #
I think people who talk about Vietnam are dating themselves. That was a completely different era. I guess when I’m about to die and we are in a war I will be all like “this is just like Iraq.” By that you should know what I mean is I want more pudding.
Comment by Aldo on 10/3 @ 11:25 am #
This is a long essay, but anyone interested in the Iraq war must take the time to read it in its entirety. The author’s argument is persuasive, but too detailed to summarize.
Comment by go to iraq on 10/3 @ 11:26 am #
why aren’t you cowards in Iraq?
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 11:29 am #
I’m not in Iraq mostly because I lack useful skills.
Comment by Dan Collins on 10/3 @ 11:29 am #
Haven’t been invited. You?
Comment by Dan Collins on 10/3 @ 11:30 am #
Why isn’t Gleen in Iran, for that matter?
Comment by Cave Bear on 10/3 @ 11:33 am #
Now I wonder where this “Baathists are the Nazis of the Middle East” thing came from. The truth is the Baath Party is a Communist (or as close as you can get in the Muslim world) group. Or perhaps Stalinist would be a better term, as Saddam was a big fan of Stalin. That is why Iraq and Syria (still run by the Baathists today) were Soviet client states back in the day.
Comment by Mikey NTH on 10/3 @ 11:58 am #
Nazi…Communist…Hitler…Stalin.
You know, there may be some difference in the details (Stalin had a better mustache – German uniforms were cooler), but in effect they were pretty much the same thing.
Comment by BJTexs on 10/3 @ 12:17 pm #
Baathists have a significant history of association with Fascist Germany and Italy. There are pictures of Saddam’s uncle shaking hands with Hitler and the early renditions of Baathists were behind the German financed Muslim armies to fight the allies, an idea that never came to practical fruition.
Check out The History Channel Archives.
Comment by Major John on 10/3 @ 12:21 pm #
“Comment by go to iraq on 10/3 @ 11:26 am #
why aren’t you cowards in Iraq?”
I am not a coward, and I will be BOG in Iraq shortly after New Year’s Day. Any other inane remarks to make?
Comment by BJTexs on 10/3 @ 12:35 pm #
Why aren’t you in Afganistan? Burma? Darfur? East LA? Your local soup kitchen?
Why haven’t you figured out that you’re an immature tool?
FaggotMoron!MJ: Please ignore the anonymous dingo fart from #3.
Comment by The_Real_JeffS on 10/3 @ 12:36 pm #
“Comment by go to iraq on 10/3 @ 11:26 am #
why aren’t you cowards in Iraq?â€Â
Because I retired from the Army Reserve……after pulling two post-9/11 active duty tours, including one in Kuwait, with some time in Iraq.
That Alaska tour doesn’t count, unless you want to include the infrequent running gun battle between drug dealers along the highways around Anchorage.
Back O/T: I read this article a couple days ago, and I heartily recommend it to all.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 10/3 @ 12:37 pm #
“I am not a coward, and I will be BOG in Iraq shortly after New Year’s Day. Any other inane remarks to make?” Oh, I’m sure that particular moron will have others. Thanks again, Major John, for your service and committment.
Comment by Major John on 10/3 @ 12:53 pm #
OI, no sweat – I’ll see what ‘e comes up with.
Comment by Major John on 10/3 @ 12:57 pm #
If wishbone shows up, he’ll really have something for ‘im. Heh.
Comment by Aldo on 10/3 @ 1:09 pm #
Damn. Well, I thought the arguments were persuasive until I read the devastating critique in #3.
I’ll see what ‘e comes up with.
You are just trying to distract us from the mess that is Iraq Rush Limbaugh’s outrageous attacks on the troops!
Comment by BJTexs on 10/3 @ 1:14 pm #
gti: Just for your edification: wishbone is a regular who comments from Iraq! Major John has done most of his service in Afghanistan and is now going back (third tour?) to train Iraqi troops.
FaggotWeasal!MJ: mike smerconish had Babe Heffron and Bill Guiniere from Easy co. of the 501 “Band of Brothers” fame. Anyone who loves this country who can listen to them talk about their exploits and not get misty with overwhelming gratitude should check for a pulse.
We feel the same way about you and wishbone. Well, all except for the misty part…
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 1:19 pm #
Did you hear about the nasty, filthy smear Wesley Clark made about the troops today?
Pretty much called ‘em a bunch of pussies, he did.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 2:27 pm #
Fareed Zakaria should be quiet when he doesn’t really have anything to say.
The surge makes these people dizzy.
Comment by cynn on 10/3 @ 2:38 pm #
This was an articulate and informative piece that clearly explained the shifting loyalties and antagonisms among Iraqis. But “Mission Accomplished?” That’s extremely presumptuous. I would agree that some critical issues have been dealt with, but it’s nowhere near game over.
Comment by Dan Collins on 10/3 @ 2:48 pm #
Keep hope alive, cynn.
Comment by J. Peden on 10/3 @ 3:31 pm #
cynn, I don’t think an Aircraft Carrier could have ever accomplished a mission, either.
So, hope springs eternal for those such as us.
Comment by cynn on 10/3 @ 3:37 pm #
Yes I hope for the Iraqi people. I used to consider their lack of social and political progress and their seemingly random slaughter of each other to be the product of a dark-age cannibal mentality that simply can’t handle freedom. Better to be caged beasts. That was naive thinking, I’ll admit.
Then I learned more about the complete lack of civil society in Iraq, then the utter breakdown of what infrastructure remained, and the generations-old hatreds and grudges that simmered across families and tribes.
We Americans cannot even imagine what such psyche-crushing conditions can do to a populace. No one, even those who consider themselves the poorest, most downtrodden victimized wretches in American society has endured what many Iraqis suffered. They were not going to get up, brush themselves off, and skip off together to build their shiny new democracy.
That realization actually came to me in a flash one day, believe it or not.
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 4:05 pm #
At least not overnight. But they’re coming along. And helping them get there is a damned fine thing to do. Or, so says the vast majority of the people actually doing it. Tough work, but worth the effort.
I guess it’s like one of those stereograms where, once you’ve seen the image, you can no longer not see it.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 4:26 pm #
ok. That killed a half-hour. Still have never actually seen one of those things. Dinosaur my ass.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 4:27 pm #
oh. twenty minutes then.
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 4:54 pm #
happyfeet, you’ve got to blank right the fuck out. Look through the image more than at it. .
That shit is in there. Really. Dinosaur. Word.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 4:59 pm #
I bookmarked it, but I’m not hopeful. I give it my all every time I come across those things. Nothing.
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 5:03 pm #
Stop trying so hard. Let everything go all fuzzy. Just sort of zone out with it in your field of view. Then, BAM! It’s there.
If it still doesn’t work, smoke some weed and try again.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 5:07 pm #
I’ll try.
Comment by Rusty on 10/3 @ 5:28 pm #
Well Cynn, I think It was Heinlien who said no society is more than three square meals away from chaos. Even this one.
#
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 4:54 pm #
happyfeet, you’ve got to blank right the fuck out. Look through the image more than at it. .
That shit is in there. Really. Dinosaur. Word.
Bullshit! It’s like that clock thing of Jeffs,but only with a bunch of multicolored squiggly lines. There’s no clock and there ain’t no dinosaurs!!! Don’t listen to him Happy!
Comment by J. Peden on 10/3 @ 5:55 pm #
I’d have a hard time not believing it, cynn.
Comment by Dan Collins on 10/3 @ 5:59 pm #
That’s really fucking mean, Pablo.
hf–It’s a picure of Digby.
Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 10/3 @ 6:46 pm #
Happyfeet, did you ever see Mallrats? There’s a character in that movie that can’t see the picture, too. I, and apparently you too, have never seen the “hidden” picture in one of those things.
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 6:51 pm #
I’m with happyfeet and Rusty on this one. I have tried those freaking things since childhood, and I have never seen whatever it is that everyone else claims to see. I do not even try anymore. I just always assume that it is a joke that everyone else is in on except me.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 6:54 pm #
Yes. It’s not just today. For years these “pictures” have eluded me. But no I haven’t seen Mallrats but I love Shannon Dougherty. I think she’s important.
Comment by cynn on 10/3 @ 7:01 pm #
J Peden, are you speaking for me? What the hell does that slave shit mean? That better be a joke; you didn’t signal it correctly.
Comment by Ric Locke on 10/3 @ 7:33 pm #
Happyfeet, it’s a bit like the advice they give you when learning martial arts. You know, they tell you not to hit the side closest to you; hit the other side while going through the one you can see.
My work has involved looking at stereograms since roughly 1970, so I don’t have any trouble, but I know some people do. What you have to do to see single-image stereograms is to confuse your eye muscles. When you look at something far away, your sight lines are approximately parallel and your focus is at a distance. When you look at something close by, your sight lines converge and you focus near. To see the contents of a single-image stereogram, your sight lines have to be parallel (or nearly) like looking far away, but your focus has to be close. It’s a combination not generally used.
One trick that’s helped some people is suggested by the martial arts analogy: look through the stereogram at something (imaginary) that’s far away. If you start to see the 3D, try to focus on it. You’ll probably lose the effect the first couple of times you try to focus; just look “far away” again.
Another possibility is a bit of cardboard or stiff paper. Hold it vertically between your eyes, so your two eyes cannot see the same point and therefore can’t converge all the way. That may make it easier for you to pick up the cognate points that form the stereogram.
Regards,
Ric
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 7:38 pm #
O-Be-Wan Locke. He of infinite wisdom.
You were absolutely right previously. Unless they can speak intelligently in a manner that requires the use of reference books to follow, they pale in comparison to you.
Comment by happyfeet on 10/3 @ 7:40 pm #
That seemed hopeful so I tried with a flattened cigarette carton. No dinosaur, but it’s a quest now.
Comment by Pablo on 10/3 @ 8:13 pm #
Yes, exactly right. You must lose focus to gain vision.
It’s in there, I swear it.
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 8:18 pm #
CHICKEN-LIARS !
Comment by cynn on 10/3 @ 8:52 pm #
You guys are knee-slappers. You’re busy with your parlor games, twiddling your fat thumbs and watching the clock.
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 8:57 pm #
cynn – we just do this to pass the time. We are avoiding having to cower in fear and wetting ourselves over the impending Muslim hordes.
Comment by cynn on 10/3 @ 9:18 pm #
OK, I’ll do crosswords until you give the next terror alert.
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 9:21 pm #
cynn – ATTACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Karl on 10/3 @ 9:40 pm #
FWIW, I give cynn credit for making an effort to understand that the problems in Iraq aren’t — as some still would have it — just “the product of a dark-age cannibal mentality that simply can’t handle freedom.”
It’s a point that may have been evident to a lot of the regulars here, but cynn studied the sociology of Iraq and overcame no small amount of antiwar propaganda intended to convince everyone that democratic ideas cannot take hold in the Mideast.
There are debates over the compatibility of Islam with Western democratic ideals (inasmuch as the Enlightenment is not a part of Islam) too protracted to recap here, but I give kudos to cynn for displaying some of the nuance those on the Left claim to have, but which is increasingly rare these days.
Comment by JD on 10/3 @ 10:00 pm #
I concur. cynn is one of the most level headed and wrong headed I have run across.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 10/4 @ 4:26 am #
Speaking of which, here is where hilzoy and I part company. In order to swallow the mediamatters line, you’ve got to want to believe it. And I say this as a guy whose immediate response to hearing Limbaugh on the radio is to switch channels.
It’s not as if there aren’t a few hundred thousand soldiers that you could ask if Rush was talking about them. But no, you
askfront a commercial for one former serviceman who, coincidentally, just happens to be running for Congress.Bet you can’t guess which party.
I swear, if this shit hadn’t just been made up, I’d say you couldn’t make this shit up. Given a choice between a) Limbaugh is referring to guys claiming to be soldiers, but who really aren’t and b) Limbaugh is referring to a rather large segment of servicemen who disagree with them, hilzoy chooses b), sans anything like evidence. Because everyone knows, when Limbaugh says “fake”, he means “people who disagree with me”.
Comment by Slartibartfast on 10/4 @ 4:45 am #
Because of the speaking-in-code, you see.
Comment by Pablo on 10/4 @ 6:30 am #
I’ll have you know that I was watching baseball, missy.
Comment by McGehee on 10/4 @ 7:07 am #
“Engage me, dammit! I’m sober!”
Comment by maggie katzen on 10/4 @ 8:04 am #
yeah, I used to. but then the last time RTO was deployed he got a free subscription to his 24/7 thing via the thing Rush has set up and it wa something we could both listen to and discuss, whatever. Rush has grown on me and it’s obvious lots of people have never actually listened to him and figured out his schtick. oh well.
Comment by Andrew on 10/4 @ 10:12 am #
cynn finally saw the sailboat.
Comment by klrtz1 on 10/4 @ 10:41 am #
The way I do a stereogram is I cross my eyes just a little bit until the middle image (the overlap) seems to move toward me. I have to focus on that middle part. Then the “picture” is engraved into that part that moved forward, engraved back into the screen. Like the dinosaur is carved into that middle image. The overlapping rings one seemed more interesting than the dinosaur one.
It’s like looking at some wrapping paper where the paper has been wrapped around the dinosaur and then unwrapped so just the shape of the dinosaur pressed into the paper can be seen.
Not that success in Iraq isn’t important, too!
Comment by Big Dan on 10/4 @ 10:57 am #
For the Stereogram viewing: Hold two fingers up about 1.5 feet from your face. Now look past your fingers, and you will see three-four ‘images’ of your fingers. Move your fingers together/apart until the middle image overlaps and look really solid.
That’s what you are trying to do with the stereograms. This page helps: http://www.vision3d.com/dots.html
Comment by klrtz1 on 10/4 @ 1:14 pm #
Once you see the 3D dot, don’t forget to move your head from side to side until you feel nauseous.
Go ahead and throw up.
Try to miss the keyboard.