January 9, 2014

“WH Scrambles to Blame ‘Polar Vortex’ on Global Warming”

Which, who didn’t see that coming.

Meanwhile, nearby, a prominent Princeton professor — though he lacks Obama’s omnipotence and an autodidact’s mastery of all things ever — in turn scrambles to call such a claim bullshit.  Though he uses more academic jargon and engages the question more diplomatically.  But I figure you come here for the shorter version of things, so enjoy my salty language, which cuts right to the chase.

So, to recap:  global warming is to blame for the earth heating AND cooling; ice caps melting AND expanding; the world growing greener AND more desolate; and of course acne.  Among countless other things.

Posted by Jeff G. @ 2:10pm
364 comments | Trackback

Comments (364)

  1. Global warming on Earth causes ice geysers on Europa.

  2. Old Jugears promised to heal the Earth, didn’t he? What’s he waiting for?

  3. I see we’re back to climate change = global warming = climate change.

  4. We used to call it “weather”.

  5. Old observation, but evergreen: How come is it that any severe heat wave (with attendant drought, tornados, hurricanes) is PROOF of AGW, but any extremely cold weather is “just weather variations; whatsamatter, can’t you tell the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE?”

    (By the way, I’ve always thought that evidence of God’s sense of humor is found in things like the Gore Effect.)

  6. evidence of God’s sense of humor

    You need more than the platypus?

  7. We used to call it “weather”.

    Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get.

  8. Just Newspeak it and call it climatewrongthing from now on.

  9. A group of Senate Democrats is planning a new offensive on climate change, one that members hope will galvanize congressional colleagues.

    Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) said Thursday the group will be “going on the offensive” on climate change to “wake up Congress.” Boxer and Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) made the announcement in a meeting with reporters.

    The Climate Action Task Force has 12 members — all Democrats — so far, Boxer said, and will hold an official unveiling Tuesday. The task force’s efforts will include public events, floor speeches and bringing more outside partners, like religious organizations and businesses that support slowing climate change, to the table. “Everybody gets it, except for Congress,” Boxer said.

    Whitehouse said there has long been a “barricade of special-interest lies around Congress and around Washington” when it comes to climate change, and the group seeks to break it down. “Once that barricade is broken, all sorts of things become possible,” Whitehouse said.

    So the left is going to once more storm the barricades like the old days. Of course when the Park “Service” put up barricades just a while ago they applauded.

  10. that support slowing climate change

    But….what if Earth is supposed to be warming? What if Gaia wants the Earth to be warmer than it is now?

  11. Attribute something to God’s Will and you’re an idiot. Attribute it to CO2 induced climate change and you’re a Renaissance Man.

  12. Can’t wait to see what’smyname’s explanation for all this. I’m sure it’ll be contrary to the laws of physics and probably intentionally confusing.

    The smack down replies;
    however,
    I have no doubt will be priceless!

    KEEP FIRING!!!

  13. Well, he’ll have to make up a new alias and fake email address first

  14. Crankster,

    Just read the news on Steve.
    So sad we just can’ seem to recruit a better class of trolls ;^)

  15. >Whitehouse said he was heartened by a poll released by the League of Conservation Voters, which showed that 74 percent of independents and 53 percent of Republicans under the age of 35 would use the terms “ignorant,” “out-of-touch,” or “crazy” to describe climate change deniers.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/01/09/boxer-whitehouse-announce-new-push-on-climate/

  16. satire

    >Senators Cruz, Lee and Toomey announce the Give It Good and Hard Global Warming Intiative:

    Washington DC – Senators Cruz, Lee and Toomey have announced today that they want to help Senators Boxer and Whitehouse in their efforts on Climate Change. Senators Cruz, Lee and Toomey propose that nuclear reactors be built at the North and South poles with outdoor heaters to hasten the melting of the ice.

    Senator Cruz: ” Why wait for Gaia if we can do it ourselves.

    Senator Lee: ” I see this as a local issue.”

    Senator Toomey: ” The Obama administration likes to say they stopped the rising of the oceans, let me be clear, our side showed that Global Warming is occurring”

  17. Senator Rubio: Why wait for the inevitable fund nuclear plants at the poles now!

  18. Senator McConnel: I have kiddie porn issues now. Splendid idea.

  19. Speaker Boehner: “Look if this helps “Immigration Reform” I’m all for it. I need a little K Street stuff too you Tea Party clowns”

  20. President Obama ” Look these nasty Rethuglicans need something. Me and Chris Christie will build those plants for GE.”

  21. >Racial Maddow MSNBC: A clever attack upon the 1st BLACK President. Using his Occidental, Columbia and Harvard education against him. Have you no morals or ethics teabaggers?<

  22. Paul Krugman NYT : > Look the Chinese model works best, burp, . You Teabaggers have to accept your part in an omelet. Chill peeps.<

  23. “Vice” President Biden “Look we need innovative ideas. This works! Ask my friends at Homer Depot.

  24. Anyone else want in on the continuing saga of why “light” in English can apply to the moon without it being a lie?

    Ongoing. I’m with some real jagoffs.

  25. I’m still dealing with the fact “present” means both “here” and “now.”

    Also, I just finished my last dram of Glenfiddich, which may or may not be related.

  26. No, you’re right. I should close it down and get some sleep.

  27. Present also means “gift.” Now what?

  28. FWIW, “present” also means “give”.

  29. Anyone else want in on the continuing saga of why “light” in English can apply to the moon without it being a lie?

    Maybe because the result from translating never quite means the same thing than the original language, such as the old saw “out of sight, out of mind” translated as “invisible idiot”? “Source of illumination” does not require it to be actually self-illuminating (e.g., a frosted window in an otherwise darkened bathroom — it is the source of light for that bathroom, but is not actually glowing itself).

  30. - FWIW also means ANAL (Apparently not a lot), TTWAGOS (take this with a grain of salt), and WACA (warning anecdotal comments ahead).

  31. - Superfan, or, Our legal system marches on.

  32. I pointed out that when I’m walking around at night, the moon is my light source. And that “light” also refers to the free-floating EM waves in the vacuum of space.

    NO! IF THE BIBLE WERE TRUE IT WOULD EXPLAIN THAT THERE WAS ONE LIGHT SOURCE AND THAT THE MOON REFLECTS. BECAUSE OTHERWISE IT’S LIKE SWITCHING ON THE LIGHTS AND SAYING I TURNED ON THE WALLS.

    Yes, that’s the popular argument. Yes, they seem to think it’s valid.

    Before Twitter cut me off, I was trying very hard to help some guy understand why, according to the Bible’s own explanation, figural language is used when teaching the masses. I literally cited chapter and verse. (Matthew 13:10–17)

    I asked him to interpret the Parable of the Sower in Mark 4. He’d just go on about the text being copied from Luke or something. OK, something easier: the Prodigal Son. More evasion.

    He asserted that our “collective consciousness” has established a morality superior to a musty old book (being chronologically later) and that, I am not making this up:

    Over six billion people wake up in the morning knowing they won’t kill, steal or cheat their neighbour. This is a beautiful thing, such consensus.

    Look where it goes from there.

    I am totally used to people not sharing my religious perspective. But it always weirds me out when I see this degree of orthogonality in someone who seems to have the gray matter to comprehend what I’m saying, even if he disagrees utterly.

    Am I insane, here? Because the room is starting to spin…

  33. Dicentra, my Jr. High debate team would have been so embarrassed by that argument they would have disavowed it, disbanded, and issued a public apology for ever having considered themselves “debaters.”

    Basically they’re disallowing figural language despite textual evidence and then claiming only one modern dictionary definition can be used in the ancient text they’re ignoring.

    It’s not even an argument, it’s a shallow attempt to continuously redefine terms and rules so they can’t “lose.”

    It’s the intellectual equivalent of Elizabeth Warren calling you a racist because you looked at your watch while she was talking.

    You are, quite literally, wasting your time bandying words with oppositional defiant children.

    Realize I say this as someone who does not in particular detail share your beliefs.

  34. You are, quite literally, wasting your time bandying words with oppositional defiant children.

    The ones who are just pissing around I swat a few times and then ignore.

    I’m actually trolling (in the fishing sense) for someone I can dialog with, just to see where I can take it.

    [I actually live for this kind of thing, ever since I read about the Internet in Ender’s Game; you guys might have noticed that I like to opine.]

    I’ve had maybe three intelligent interlocutors in the last two days, but then others keep including me in the shallower spats, so I dip in my oar to see what turns up and it’s astoundingly puerile, even by Twitter standards.

    e.g.:

    Dude said that if I lived 500 years ago and said the Bible was allegorical, I’d be executed. I countered that the four-fold interpretation of the Bible was all the rage back then. “WRONG,” he said. I invited him and others to Google “allegorical anagogical moral literal” and see what turned up. They wouldn’t do it, and then continued to call me dishonest and evasive.

    My dissertation topic was “The concept of language in 16th-century Spanish mystics.”

    I guess the light really does shine in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. Sunlight, that is. The moon has nothing to do with light.

  35. Pity you can’t reflect high energy lasers through twitter and ask them if it counts as a light source even though it’s been bounced off a mirror…

  36. NO! IF THE BIBLE WERE TRUE IT WOULD EXPLAIN THAT THERE WAS ONE LIGHT SOURCE AND THAT THE MOON REFLECTS. BECAUSE OTHERWISE IT’S LIKE SWITCHING ON THE LIGHTS AND SAYING I TURNED ON THE WALLS.

    Which the Jews at that time knew with their vast knowledge of astronomy and… oh wait.

  37. Basically they’re disallowing figural language

    Thing is, “two lights in the sky” to refer to the sun and moon isn’t even figural. The most literal-minded Aspie would accept it as a valid locution.

    That’s what gets me: the ordinary meaning in the translation doesn’t admit that reading. Of all the phrases in the Bible to use as evidence that it’s a lie, that’s the one Bill Nye chooses? That’s the one the Twitter horde sticks with?

    Sorry, I’m still boggling, days later. I thought I’d seen it all.

  38. Which the Jews at that time knew with their vast knowledge of astronomy

    No, see, if the Bible were the word of God, the astronomy would be right. They think they’re arguing against creationism, but the creationists don’t even say that the Bible says the moon emits light.

    Besides, why would an omnipotent God use figural language to communicate with those he supposedly loves? Do you do that with your kids? Do you confuse them with allegory and allusion? No you do not.

  39. …and the filters at work that prevent people from watching YouTube or Hulu or similar are preventing me from linking to that scene from the “Billy Madison” movie. Ah, found a quote:

    “…Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

  40. I kind of suspect a deity would be limited by his audience. Genesis doesn’t spend very much time going through the first nanoseconds of the Big Bang like some science programs do. Is that because “it’s all a lie” or because Yahweh knew he’d get a ton of blank looks.

    Genesis also doesn’t depict the Lord going “…and you’ve gone cross-eyed again. Let me rephrase this.”

    If an agnostic like me can puzzle that out, why can’t these “enlightened” atheists? Oh wait, I lack their religious fervor (do tell them that) so I can think outside the box a bit.

  41. From Mr. Dictionary:

    Light:

    1.

    a : something that makes vision possible
    b : the sensation aroused by stimulation of the visual receptors
    c : electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength that travels in a vacuum with a speed of about 186,281 miles (300,000 kilometers) per second; specifically : such radiation that is visible to the human eye

    2
    a : daylight
    b : dawn

    3 : a source of light: as
    a : a celestial body
    b : candle
    c : an electric light

    5.
    a : spiritual illumination
    b : inner light
    c : enlightenment
    d : truth

    7 : a particular illumination

    A little off topic, but seeing as how you are apparently dealing with commie heathens, an interesting perspective from former commie heathens.

  42. dicentra says January 10, 2014 at 2:23 am
    that’s the one Bill Nye chooses?

    Bill Nye is an embarrassment.

    I still remember his AGW argument comparing the atmospheres of Venus and Earth. “We know CO2 causes warming because look at the atmosphere of Venus, and look how hot it is”

    He neglected to mention that the amounts of CO2 defy comparison (over 95% on Venus vs trace gas on Earth). He neglected to mention the vast difference in atmospheric density (Venus’s atmosphere is over 90 times as dense, comparable to pressures nearly a mile deep in the ocean). He neglected to mention any other of the other differences (proximity to the sun, speed of rotation, axial tilt).

    Most importantly he neglected to mention that 50 to 60 km above the surface, where the atmospheric pressure has drops (as pressure drops with altitude as it does on Earth) to Earth-like norms, the temperature is also Earth-like, despite all that awful CO2 being “opaque to infrared” everywhere. The upper atmosphere of Venus is the most Earth-like condition you’ll find in the Solar System.

    Whatever advances the narrative of a need for government control is climate, whatever doesn’t advance that narrative is only weather. Whatever a dork in a bow-tie says to advance “your god is government” narrative is SCIENCE.

  43. Just in case we’ve forgotten who John Holdren is, let’s review.

    The problem, you’ll see, is that you exist. Just stop that. If you’re having trouble complying, John has some ideas.

  44. it’s always “global warming”. don’t ever say climate change.

    don’t let them move the goalposts.

  45. Collective unconscious?

    Sheesh, even Jung admitted that he was just spit-balling with that one.

  46. Genesis also doesn’t depict the Lord going “…and you’ve gone cross-eyed again. Let me rephrase this.” – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52421#comment-1049649

    I remember reading a short story where Moses and God were talking, and Moses was saying, “There is no way people are going to believe anything about billions of years. You need to keep things short and simple with these folks. Remember that they have been slaves for years, and most of them can barely read.”

    “So ‘billions of years’ is out?”

    “Definitely. Keep it to not more than a week.”

    “{Sigh} Okay… Start again…”

  47. Over six billion people wake up in the morning knowing they won’t kill, steal or cheat their neighbour. This is a beautiful thing, such consensus.

    Besides the fact that this “knowing” is demonstrably not true, what you have here is a progressive who believes that we have reached the stage of civilization where all men are born angels.

    For the Progressives, as with Hegel, then, Freedom is inextricably tied to an evolutionary, or, more precisely, progressive, conception of History in which each successive stage of civilization, like an acorn maturing into an oak tree, represents a fuller or more complete development of man’s moral or spiritual nature than the previous one. History, then, is ordered toward a specific end — the actualization of man’s spiritual nature — and has an identifiable path or content. As Richard Gamble concludes, “History possessed a distinct and discernable tendency, a teleology. It moved from the physical to the spiritual, from perdition to redemption.”

    That all men are now born angels is now true because those who are not angels are to be considered not men but barbarians to be swept away.

    In principle, accordingly, all of the rights previously believed to inhere in the individual — e.g., the rights to life, to physical liberty, to decide whom to marry, to enjoy the fruits of his labor, to speak freely, etc. — were now subject to public disposal. Whether and to what extent government allows individuals to control any aspect of their personal concerns was now purely a matter of how it viewed the consequences of doing so. To illustrate just how far the Progressives were willing to take this, Merriam, in drawing the foreign-policy implications of this change, declared: “Barbaric races, if incapable, may be swept away; and such action ‘violates no rights of these populations which are not petty and trifling in comparison with its [the Teutonic race’s] transcendent right and duty to establish legal order everywhere.’” As Progressive economist and New Republic editor Walter Weyl summed up this shift in 1912, America was now “emphasizing the overlordship of the public over property and rights formerly held to be private.”

  48. Somebody needs to present me with a present of more Glenfiddich, present and present.

  49. I’ll set up a set and set it on the set.

  50. Over six billion people wake up in the morning knowing they won’t kill, steal or cheat their neighbour. This is a beautiful thing, such consensus.

    It’s especially beautiful for the other billion people on Earth, who wake up each morning knowing that they’ve a practically unlimited number of victims to choose from.

  51. This, though it deals with a different part of the Bible is applicable to what is being discussed also.

  52. McGehee, may I recommend Balvenie Double Wood (or Carribean Cask if you can find it). So smooth you can drink it like Kool Aid. Don’t ask how I know.

  53. Patrick – yes, *religious fervor* is as much prized as it is denied among Evangelical Atheists.

    mondamay – Bill Nye’s “Venus Moment” is a classic example of claiming the mantle of science by using the appearance of science to attack its substance – also all too common. It’s not his only moment, either.

    Dicentra – Well I hope you do not find, as I have, that the occasional intelligent interlocutor doesn’t simply go back to the tribe, recharge, and return with the same bank of opinions they started with.

  54. Merovign says
    Dicentra – Well I hope you do not find, as I have, that the occasional intelligent interlocutor doesn’t simply go back to the tribe, recharge, and return with the same bank of opinions they started with. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52421#comments

    If I can jump in here.
    It makes me question; Doesn’t anyone on the left go back and question first principals about anything? It’s what made Hitchens so compelling in his arguments. He was willing to set aside political philosophy in the face of reality. That and he was extremely well read. Something the current run of lefties are loathe to do. Examine their principals and read, I mean.
    Now Hitchens and religion, that’s another matter.

  55. Camille Paglia is the last honest liberal now that Hitch has passed on.

  56. I’m not sure my wallet or my liver could survive me drinking Scotch like Kool-Aid.

  57. I hope you do not find, as I have, that the occasional intelligent interlocutor doesn’t simply go back to the tribe, recharge, and return with the same bank of opinions they started with.

    Let me tally that up. brb

    :: carry the one… ::

    Addition of new concept to Lefty brain — 0
    Tribal recharge — infinity

  58. There is no way people are going to believe anything about billions of years.

    The reason the creation is described in terms of seven days (or seven epochs, as the Hebrew allows) is given in Exodus 20:11:

    For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    The Law of Moses is replete with six-on, one-off rhythms. They were to cultivate their fields for six years and let them lie fallow on the seventh. Many of their festivals were six weeks of one thing and the seventh another.

    Genesis establishes six-on, one-off as a divinely established rhythm. They worked six days and rested on the Sabbath in similitude of God’s holy labor in creating the earth. In a mythopoetic society, that’s what truth entails: the why, not the how. Were you to ask an ancient Hebrew whether the seven days of creation were literally seven earth rotations, he’d wonder why that was important to you, or why you were so determined to miss the point.

    We have inherited the positivistic world view from our Judeo-Christian-Greek intellectual heritage, so naturally, when we see a number plus a unit of measurement, we assume it’s a data point, because that’s how we signify precision. It would never occur to us to say “7 days” to refer to anything else but seven earth rotations.

    I’ve only had glimpses into the ancient Hebrew methods of signification, and they’re mind-blowing from our perspective. They’re extraordinarily complex and multi-layered and alien. I even busted out “Darmok and Gelad at T’nagra” in one case, to exemplify how different methods of signification can lead to utter misunderstanding, despite translation.

    Is that 140 characters yet?

  59. Think for a moment of a physico-metaphoric pair of orientations, the first, with the ancient fellow walking backwards into life gazing solely on the past (even if the dimmest and most distant elements of the past), understanding to himself the future is utterly unknown as a kind of void, and the second, the modern fellow walking into that voided future, the aim of his orientation as the very place of progress, his back to the past consigning it to a sort of oblivion, of a land of forgetting as of the lost, despite his understanding that his present rests on nothing but relic artifact.

  60. I’ve heard that, sdferr, that the ancient Hebrews saw themselves as walking backwards into the future. It seemed odd to me at the time, but it actually makes sense, because the past is all you can know or “see.”

    That would mean that we future-lookers stare into the void as we project our wishes (delusions?) into it.

    Which, footprints on the moon.

    So it might be a good idea to reorient yourself regularly, sometimes regarding the past and other times inscribing potential into the future.

    Which, good luck getting a Leftist to do even that.

  61. I believe that in both cases the primary element of soul working on the thought-object is imagination. In the case of the ancients, it’s an admittedly poetic impulse. In the modern, there seems to be an obsession (is it silly? could be) with human ‘creation’ or ‘creativity’ which wasn’t a particular feature of ancient thought. Art got elevated in status as a consequence.

  62. In the case of the ancients, it’s an admittedly poetic impulse.

    They were looking for meaning, not causality.

    Like all of the other true dichotomies, each side has its merits, and you have to work at it to learn when to deploy one approach and when the other.

  63. If we can envision a future, by what light are we seeing it?

  64. The conventional conception of nothing is a space with no thing in it. But true nothing would not even include the attribute of space — and, if the physicists are right, space is inextricably conjoined with time. At the other end of the spectrum is infinity and eternity, and, as is the case with “nothing,” while we can understand these terms in a theoretical way, we cannot actually comprehend them.

    So, if one were to posit a creation account one would probably need to express it in terms that, if not scientifically factual, are at least comprehensible. And what symbols might one use to express the creation of time?

  65. By the way, I believe physicists are simply in the business of pragmatically constructing mathematical models that best fit certain physical phenomena, and giving names to forces and behaviors which exhibit measurable regularities. Their laws and theories are more descriptive than explanatory.

  66. “I remember reading a short story where Moses and God were talking, and Moses was saying, “There is no way people are going to believe anything about billions of years.”

    I am always amused at those who imagine themselves so much smarter than people long ago. I mean sure, people today have access to more knowledge, but whether they have greater intelligence is a bold assertion I personally greatly doubt.

    For a couple of off the cuff examples, I seriously doubt any modern engineer could use the tools of four thousand years ago and build a better pyramid than the Egyptians did, and I bet the average teenage Mayan of two thousand years had a better grasp on astronomy than the average modern American.

    Remember the story about Reagan?

    Their spokesman began, “Governor, it’s impossible for your generation to understand us…. You didn’t grow up in a world of instant electronic communications, of cybernetics, of men computing in seconds what once took months, even years, or jet travel, nuclear power, and journeys into space….”

    When the young man finished, Reagan said, “You’re absolutely right. Our generation didn’t have those things when we were growing up. We invented them.”

  67. The whole idea of taking the Bible as a scientific text is silly on its face. It is a transcription of stories told orally for many, many centuries. Oral history, while generally faithful to the original telling, is going to undergo changes in vocabulary if the tellers are nomadic and if others from another tribe/clan join the original group. Then there are the problems of transcriptions and translations to and from other languages and embellishments added by the transcribers.

    The Bible, while historically accurate in some aspects is also full of allegory and contradictory passages.

  68. The Bible, while historically accurate in some aspects is also full of allegory and contradictory passages.

    “Oh, so you ADMIT that it’s not the ‘inerrant word of God.'”

    “You guys just call it literal when it matches your worldview and figurative when it doesn’t. Liars.”

    Don’t worry about me. The repetitive headdesks will eventually render me unconscious, and when I awaken, I won’t care anymore.

  69. I happened to find this article in TheBlaze this very morning.

    Theologian R.P. Nettelhorst also called the argument that the moon is not a separate light “rather juvenile.”

    “It’s akin to hopping on someone because they wonder what time sunrise is, rather than wondering what time the earth will have rotated for the sun to come into view,”

    OK, now I’m better.

  70. “Oh, so you ADMIT that it’s not the ‘inerrant word of God”

    Not me.

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
    -letter from Paul to Timothy (2 Timothy 3:16)

    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    -Simon Peter (2 Peter 1:20-21)

  71. Di, you have the advantage of having gone to a denominational college and a secular university. There is no insult you haven’t already heard.

    The one that I love is explaining to the Others that Catholics have no beef with Evolutionary Theory. Usually three or so replies later, the inevitable “So, you don’t really believe in God! Darwin was an atheist! Nuff said!”

    Big deal. A lot of scientists are atheists and many are believers. It’s irrelevant.

  72. Look if genesis doesn’t tell me the solar pressure and coronal diameter along the ecliptic accurately or what blood type Adam is then I gott a go Flyin’ Spaghetti Monster.

    Sorry.

    You eat your God with sincere contrition because it is the only way to salvation.

    We eat our god with Parmesan because he is delicious and we caught him napping on a plate. Our god also comes with better bread sticks and a full sized beverage. Admittedly our god does stain our shirts from tie to time.

  73. Our god says go forth and be a smart ass and lol. Also darwin fish or whatever. Because SCIENCE!(tm). Arugula prices!

  74. ” Admittedly our god does stain our shirts from tie to time.”

    Well Duh! It’s flyin’…

  75. It’s hard worshipping something you juts boiled.

  76. just

  77. Whereas eating something the Juts boiled — like a nasty cod-paste, say — could be next to impossible, on account of the gagging.

  78. We eat our god with Parmesan because he is delicious and we caught him napping on a plate. Our god also comes with better bread sticks and a full sized beverage. Admittedly our god does stain our shirts from tie to time.

    I just changed my religion.

  79. Olive Garden could rebrand themselves as the Holy Temple of the FSM (Cheese Be Upon Him).

  80. He/she is definitely a god of the (super) market-place though.

    And thanks to those unhip jerks at Barilla he/she is at least partially homophobic according to GLAAD.

  81. Your god, he is a tasty god. With meatballs.

  82. Ah, FSM. The first and only knock-knock joke of the evangelical atheist.

  83. Well there’s the “Invisible Pink Unicorn” as well.

  84. In the early 80’s the “clever” thing was to joke about it making more sense to worship Elvis since he was real. The same people couldn’t shut up about Nostradamus though. I guess the constant “nuclear war” doomsday clock drumbeat had people scared enough to drop the strict skepticism act in public.

  85. Of course now the skeptics like to “allow” that the Earth may be a type of sentient organism for certain values of sentient and certain values of organism. They seem to be big on spontaneously arising orders (ooh! like a Hegelian/Marxist historiographic dialectic progression of successive paradigms!)and maybe kind of psychic but not really but totally psychic quantum thingie vibration whatchama doodles. They also tend to talk a lot about Darwinian processes both admiringly and with condemnation. They tend to look at these processes predictively, picking winners before the pressure actually impacts, based on how they are judged by theory and ideology. They demand that nature and science bow to their shallowly held, momentarily adopted, set of self-identification oriented political aesthetics. They babble about contexts that supposedly make 2 +2 = whatever “the people” subconsciously need it to equal. They wield skepticism in battle like fire and then put it ought when it starts to burn fabric of their own tents down. They value criticism when it assails their chosen enemies and then they castrate it and bind it up before it can be allowed to touch their own precious idea of truth. Sons of Belial is a good term for such people.

  86. “Sons of Belial is a good term for such people.”

    Do you mean sons of Baphamet?

    The Satanic Temple, a New York-based organization, unveiled designs for a seven foot-tall Baphomet statue to be placed at the Oklahoma State Capitol […]

    It is probably a publicity stunt and a way of protesting the placement of a privately-funded monument of the 10 Commandments in 2012 on State Capitol grounds.

    If one keeps reading, there are some pretty screwy things about that ten commandments plaque too:

    The Commandments are topped by the All-Seeing Eye inside a triangle, symbol of the occult elite.

    and

    The monument contains two glaring misspellings.

  87. …the All-Seeing Eye inside a triangle, symbol of the occult elite.

    What occult? The Masons? Whom do they worship if not the God of Israel?

  88. The Commandments are topped by the All-Seeing Eye inside a triangle, symbol of the occult elite.

    Like the one on the back of our dollar bill?

    It’s not unusual for Christians to adopt symbols from other traditions when the meanings seem to overlap. Evergreen trees at Christmas to symbolize Everlasting Life, Easter fertility symbols for resurrection and rebirth, etc.

    The All-Seeing Eye in this context means the omniscient God of Abraham.

    As for the misspellings, how old is the monument? Standardized spelling is a fairly recent phenomenon. Educated people deviated from our norm all the time.

    Or, they screwed up.

  89. We all know the All-Seeing Eye is Sauron taking a gander at us.

    Get real, people!

  90. i worry about the mason jar

  91. cranky-d is right.

    Changing my religion for the second time in one thread.

    #dizzying

  92. shorter steve: “the sons of Eli were sons of Belial ” (KJV)
    In modern versions these are usually read as a phrase:

    “the sons of Eli were worthless men ” (NRSV, NIV)
    In the Hebrew text the phrase is either “sons of Belial” or simply “sons of worthlessness.”[3][4] However “sons of” phrases are a common semitic idiom such as “sons of destruction” “sons of lawlessness”.[5]

  93. Standardized spelling is a fairly recent phenomenon.

    Just ask my cousins: McGehee, McGhee, Megehee, Magee, Megee…

    And that’s just on this side of the Atlantic. In some parts of Scotland the concept of a surname as we understand it was still a new import from England when my ancestor was shipped off to Virginia.

  94. “The All-Seeing Eye in this context means the omniscient God of Abraham”

    I have never seen that symbol in a Christian church before.

    It is a Masonic symbol, and as far as I know was put on the dollar by FDR, a 32nd Degree Freemason and a Knight of Pythias with ties Manly P. Hall.

    Read more at http://vigilantcitizen.com/hidden-knowledge/the-order-of-the-illuminati/#3oiUE15X5W90HmZV.99

  95. I have never seen that symbol in a Christian church before.

    And you’ve been to them all, looking into all the ceiling art to make sure it’s not there.

    Most of the Founders were Masons. It would appear that the person who designed that particular monument thought that the symbol was appropriate.

    It turns out that disparate groups can use the same symbol for different ends. It doesn’t connect the groups.

  96. “And you’ve been to them all, looking into all the ceiling art to make sure it’s not there.”

    Can you show me one where it IS there?

    Besides a Mormon church I mean…

  97. is there one for the vatican?

  98. a) That’s a temple, not a church. The difference matters to us.

    b) I’m wholly aware of those images on the outside of the temple.

    c) I’m wholly aware that those symbols are used by others to signify sinister things.

    d) You are not asserting on proteinwisdom that the Church’s detractors are the more valid interpreters of the symbols than those who put the symbols there.

  99. I’d also like to point out who retweeted this gem of mine from late last night.

  100. Masonic lodges are in every town, large and small, in Oklahoma. That is according to the Shriners that I know, so feel free to say it ain’t so. The populace is mainly Baptist (several different flavors), Methodists and Catholic with some Episcopalians and Presbyterians in the mix.

    Oklahoma City, were the ten commandments commands the lawn in front of the courthouse, is predominately Methodist and Baptist and a great many of the city fathers an persons who work at the State House and the like belong to the Masons. I don’t know who donated the statue, but I’ll bet he was a Mason.

    Re: the Satan statue, it is being cast as a freedom of speech issue. The statue is kind of a Santa Satan surrounded by children. If they are going to have a statue honoring Satan, it should be a more realistic representation, I think. Blood, suffering, human sacrifice and the like.

  101. I’m wholly aware that those symbols are used by others to signify sinister things.

    Let us please remember that the swastika was originally a Hindu tantric symbol of wealth, prosperity and auspiciousness…

  102. Wow.

    Nazism goes way back into India.

    Will the madness never end?

  103. The only assertion I’ve made is I’ve never seen the all seeing eye associated with Christianity before, and it is a Masonic symbol.

  104. The person who runs that linked blog is an ass.

    My undergrad was formerly a Catholic orphanage that had been built around the turn of the last century. It was rich in swastikas as architectural details. We had graven images all over the place too.

  105. In the era of the Founders of both this nation and the LDS church, most men were Masons. It was a sign of respectability in the community.

    “Masons” refers to the people who built Solomon’s temple. They claim to have learned its secrets from the inside and then passed them down through the millennia.

    If their claim is true, then it reinforces the historicity of the LDS temple ceremonies, not debunks it.

    You can still believe that the Mormons are not even wrong without believing lies about us.

  106. I’ve never seen the all seeing eye associated with Christianity before.

    And now you have. Mormons proclaim Christ as Savior. The Ten Commandments monument was designed by Christians.

    There are more things in heaven and earth, LBascom,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

  107. The only assertion I’ve made

    If you were trying to avoid ugly insinuations about my church, you could have linked a different site with those same photos.

  108. Five-pointed stars in Christianity: point up and point down

  109. Just wait until May, di. We dedicate the whole month to the Adoration of the Blessed Mother. Little children makes flower crowns for the graven images and we pray the rosary every day. The rosary was an invention of St. Dominic to help in counting one’s prayers. Sadly, he was also instrumental in much of the Inquisition.

  110. Little children makes flower crowns for the graven images

    FLOWER CROWNS!

    Aren’t those Wiccan fertility symbols, which of necessity harken back to Ashteroth, the fertility goddess after whom the Israelites frequently went a-whoring, and whom they paired with either Jehovah or Baal, depending on their degree of depravity?

    Proof positive that the Pope is the beast whose number is 666.

  111. “There are more things in heaven and earth, LBascom,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

    Back at ya sweetheart. Also, my parents are Mormons, so get off your high horse. You got all snotty first.

    And no, I still don’t believe the all seeing eye is a Christian symbol.

  112. “If they are going to have a statue honoring Satan, it should be a more realistic representation, I think. Blood, suffering, human sacrifice and the like. ”

    They aren’t the same satan. There satan is about keeping your nasty animal parts, your “scary” barbarian edge, sharp in case you need them and not being herded around by people who secretly regard you as slaves. It’s a “fuck you jerks” counter culture “free your mind” religion that dresses itself up as ancient occultism to intimidate people because staring people down and keeping them off balance is part of keeping them from keeping you down. It’s a retarded blend of ‘up with people’, hipsters,, rock and roll, R.E. Howard Weird fiction/Trekkie nerdism, a self promotional scam (buy our books and t-shirts), sex and drugs libertarianism, and hippy dippy counter culture.

    It tries to be scary like bikers but end s up in trench coat kids territory most of the time. Ironically it has led to a cult of personality structure within the movement that it is supposed to be a reaction to. Scientology runs rings around it. Finding out that someone is church of Satan is like finding out that they have a huge and expensive ‘Voltron and Spider-Man team-up tattoo’ on their back that means a lot to them or that they really enjoy Lil’ Abner porn comics that they draw themselves. It’s weird, and it’s not what I would do, but whatever.

    A realistic portrayal of The church of Satan satan would be a pot bellied anthropomorphic lonely blunt with a hard on saying “Leave me alone, I haven’t figured out what to do with my life yet. And you don’t get me. Because you’re a slave. And stuff. Would you like to buy a poster with some tits on it? Is that coffee you’re drinking any good? I might try some. I don’t know. It might rain today. See ya.”

    It’s not the pop culture supernatural supervillain satan nor the biblical satan really.

    It’s “a satan” like any other dumb waste of time and emotional energy and enabler of bad motives.

  113. There satan -> their satan

  114. It might be useful (for general purposes) to return to ‘to sumbolon‘ to see it in its early usage, prior to the term acquiring the trace of ‘concept’-figure dissociated from direct actions between individual men. Maybe.

  115. so get off your high horse. You got all snotty first

    Linking to a site that accuses me of covert satanism was a compliment? A neutral statement of fact?

    I still don’t believe the all seeing eye is a Christian symbol.

    “Is a Christian Symbol” != “Used by Christians to symbolize something Christian”

    So what do you say that the presence of the All-Seeing Eye on that monument means? That Christians are covert satanists? That they have no place objecting to a statue of Baphamet because tu quoque?

  116. Satanism has many flavors. One of them is about learning to control other people.

    Another is the counter-culture FU that adopts the symbols because FU.

    Another is more Wiccan New-Age stuff than anything.

  117. It might be useful (for general purposes) to return to ‘to sumbolon‘ to see it in its early usage

    Meh. That kind of thing is all Greek to me.

  118. Actually palaeomerus, I think their god is Lucifer, the “Light Bringer”, brother of Jesus and the one who was thrown out of heaven by the mean and jealous God that also threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden because Lucifer (as the serpent) showed them good and evil and God didn’t want man to become equal to Him.

    In their story, Lucifer (or Baphamet) is the good guy that wants mankind to be equal to God, and they believe they can achieve that, and so we have the earthly promise of Utopia.

    Or something like that.

  119. The ichthys means that Jesus was secretly a Neptune follower or worshipped the primeval Akkadian diety of the salt ocean Tiamat. No wait… too literal. See how the front “head” end of the fish symbol is pointy? Turn it vertical! Now it is a chevron reminiscent of the benben rising from the primeval marsh! Ptah making the first stone of the world from a mound of crocodile dung! And it is composed of two arcs of opposite vector that meet once and cross once, so it must represent a union of equal and opposite dualistic principles! It’s a stealth chao with direction! It’s Newton’s third law! AMIRITE?

    Symbol crunching is easily taken too far, is my point.

  120. Symbol crunching is easily taken too far, is my point.

    And what exactly do you mean by that?

    *runs away*

  121. “Or something like that.”

    There’s your problem. They make it very clear that they don’t actually believe their own story independently of its use toward pursuing their goals. The supernatural is a psychological matter to them. It’s psyching yourself up and others down to win you space to maneuver. Satan is the predator instinct. Jesus is the herd instinct inflicted up people by those who want sheep so they can play shepherd. It’s very Us vs. them.

    Luciferianism is the general and sloppy term for those people who think they are establishing an actual adversarial and manipulative relationship to a malevolent occult supernatural primordial demon entity who gifts power, knowledge, and favors to those who serve it or fool it. That stuff is all over the map.

  122. So, palaeo, your modern day Satanist is just a Goth? Man, that’s just lame. No wonder they have such half-assed arguments when they start in on we believers.

    They’re secretly afeared of us.

  123. the mason jar has cast it’s spell now

  124. Mason jar, Bell jar, Bell Curve.

    I see patterns.

  125. you missed jar jar binks i thinks

  126. Baphomet was a medieval French alchemy/philosophy thing that got popular with some monks as a symbol. It was used to condemn the nights Templar as demonologists or at least idolators. Church of satan picked it up when they founded, because they like horns and tits. That’s practically their brand along with slogans or “names” (like behemoth or leviathan) spelled out in hebrew letters and ye old pentegram.

    They are silly folks. Kind of sinister. I would not want a Church of satan member as my lawyer or financial adviser or real estate agent. Because I’m a bigot.

    But like I said Scientology runs serious rings around them on the evil scale. Chruch of Satan is a hobby. Scientology is an industry.

  127. Scientology is indeed an industry. They have their own navy.

  128. “So, palaeo, your modern day Satanist is just a Goth? Man, that’s just lame”

    I think Goths generally have an easier time getting laid and tend to grow out of their movement persona faster. But yeah. Satanists tend to be kind of a bit groomy from what I’ve seen. Older ‘mentors’ throw parties for dumb young angry kids and hope something cool and groovy happens eventually. If not they at least sell some t-shirts and hats.

  129. Scientology is indeed an industry.

    I wonder how many other religions were founded because of a bet?

  130. I know/knew a few Satanists. They were web designers. I used to make jerky jokes about the crutch, er…I mean church of satan events they tried to hold. But one of them kindly lent me their Babylon 5 season VHS tapes in 1997, so I stopped doing that. As you can see, they used their superior, free thinking, mind to overcome my oppression by doing me a favor and using my own confused ethical standards against me. They made me feel like an asshole and got what they wanted. And I got to see the first season of Babylon 5. Then they moved on and found better stuff to do with their lives, like the World Wildlife Federation and anti-nuke “sort of” activism. Don’t nuke the animals.

  131. I have a friend who is a Pagan priest. Self-proclaimed, I guess, since I don’t know of any seminary they attend. He’s pretty harmless. Kind of a peace, love, pass the bong kind of guy.

    He sends me Solstice Greetings and generally isn’t a pain in the ass about the Pagan thing.

  132. When I see a picture of Baphomet I say “nice titty-goat you have there!” sometimes when I’m around a new-ager. Of course if they let me copy a few .mp3’s or bought me some french fries I’d probably stop doing that. (sort of like how the Muslim Brotherhood got our government to shut up about islamism since 2006 or so, only probably with way fewer zeroes behind it)

  133. Wiccans and druidical pagans are usually pretty nice folks unless they are into lefty politics. Then they accuse you of wanting to burn witches and bring up the inquisition a lot. But most of them leave other folks alone and try to get along.

  134. With the Nation of Islam you get bean pies.

  135. “Linking to a site that accuses me of covert satanism was a compliment?”>

    The site’s tag line is “Symbols rule the world, not words nor laws”, and he has a whole series, among others, called “sinister sites”, where the same symbols are seen over and over. Also in the entertainment industry.

    The article in question was prefaced with:

    This article’s intent is not to condemn Mormonism as a faith, but rather to analyze the symbols in Temple Square in an objective matter. A visitor of this religious area finds himself surrounded with symbols esoterically associated with Black Magic, evil or ancient paganism. Why are these symbols visible on supposedly Christian buildings, of all places? Many ex-Mormons have claimed that the LDS secretly leads followers to the worship of Lucifer. Are they right?

    He concludes with: “the scriptures warn the world against false prophets and, from what I’ve gathered, Joseph Smith is as false as it gets. “, but so what Everyone is entitles to their opinion. Like I said, my mom is a Mormon, but his opinion doesn’t hurt her a bit.

    I didn’t realize you were such a hot house flower.

  136. He calls himself a hippy. His wife is a lefty extreme, but I don’t know her other than on FB once in a while.

  137. “With the Nation of Islam you get bean pies.”

    Do they put sliced up hot dogs or sausage in? Or is this the sweet custardy kind of “dessert” bean pie?

  138. Damn HTML! Damn you to HELL!!

  139. “you missed jar jar binks i thinks”

    Everything poops. Even Starwars poops.

  140. The dessert kind. They don’t suck, but you never think “you know what would really hit the spot? Some bean pi” either.

  141. pi? there IS something to this symbol business!

  142. This article’s intent is not to condemn Mormonism as a faith, but rather to analyze the symbols in Temple Square in an objective matter.

    If objectivity were the intent, they’d have appealed to the intent of the people who put the symbols there. They did not.

    A visitor of this religious area finds himself surrounded with symbols esoterically associated with Black Magic, evil or ancient paganism. Why are these symbols visible on supposedly Christian buildings, of all places? Many ex-Mormons have claimed that the LDS secretly leads followers to the worship of Lucifer. Are they right?

    They’re just asking questions, not making accusations.

    I didn’t realize you were such a hot house flower.

    A hothouse flower is someone who is so protected she can’t imagine the evil outside her tiny little world.

    How does that apply to me?

  143. With the Nation of Islam you get bean pies.

    Or assassinated. One of the two.

  144. “So what do you say that the presence of the All-Seeing Eye on that monument means? That Christians are covert satanists?”

    Yes, of course that’s what I mean, ‘Cuz of I’m stupid and inferior to your mighty intellect, Right?

    No, I think the all seeing eye was a concession the powers that be insisted on for the project to happen, and the concession was granted because those wanting the plaque didn’t think it mattered same as you because they think those symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean.

    I disagree, but I’m stupid, so it don’t matter.

  145. “How does that apply to me?”

    A hot house flower is one that wilts when exposed to the natural elements. IE, delicate. At least that is my understanding of the phrase. Plus, your avatar.

    Also, for one so aggressive you take offense very easily.

  146. I think the all seeing eye was a concession the powers that be insisted on for the project to happen

    If you don’t want to be misunderstood, be explicit. Who are the “powers that be” and why did they want that symbol there?

  147. Well now we are back to ““There are more things in heaven and earth, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

    Also, Ephesians 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

  148. for one so aggressive you take offense very easily.

    What you see as “taking offense” is me having lost patience with puerile insinuations about the temple symbols being covert satanism, in express contradiction to the principles of intentionalism.

    I expect that kind of thing on Twitter, not on Protein Wisdom.

    Plus, your avatar.

    Dicentra spectabilis is a hardy perennial that can withstand quite a bit of cold, including being snowed on and frozen while emerging from dormancy in the spring. It does die back in the heat of the summer; however, few plants that can handle lots of heat can also handle lots of cold.

    It’s also able to withstand the allelopathic properties of Ailanthus altissima, which kills not a few plants. My dicentras thrive in the shade of two Ailanthus trees without suffering ill effect. Not even weeds grow there — just them.

    My getting pissy is not an admission of being insecure about my convictions so much as it is getting pissy after two days of arguing about semiotics and Biblical exegesis with a swarm of smug imbeciles.

    Your interpreting my reaction as “taking offense” looks like anger at being told.

  149. “Also, for one so aggressive you take offense very easily.”

    That seems dangerously close to “Why are you angry? Why are you freaking out?”

  150. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    How would you like me to interpret that — not the Scripture itself, but the fact that you quoted it in this context?

  151. The powers that be = Satan wanted the symbol on the 10 commandments monument?

    Be explicit or be misunderstood.

  152. Believe it or don’t, that’s on you. Personally I DO believe in Satan, who is busy convincing the world he doesn’t exist.

  153. “Or assassinated. One of the two.”

    Oh shit.

  154. Correct, just as there is an effort to make acceptance of SSM a Christian virtue.

    How do you suppose corruption works?

  155. Or assassinated.

    Touche, Pablo.

  156. i’m with the hot house flower for the win. regard the endorsement please.

  157. You’re saying that a covert satanist insisted that the symbol be there so that the Christians would be fooled into combining the Satan symbol with the 10 Commandments?

    To corrupt Christianity? By folding in Satanic ingredients?

    The way you corrupt Christianity is to corrupt the meaning of the existing Christian symbols. A satanist would gradually introduce corrupt interpretations of the cross or the sacraments until the original meaning was obscured, such that Christians think that the satanic idea belongs there.

    If Christians are interpreting the All-Seeing Eye of God as a representation of one’s accountability to God on Judgement Day, then the satanists failed to corrupt Christianity.

    They might have a good laugh at having fooled the Christians into putting the satanic symbols up, or they might have inserted a dog-whistle to other satanists, saying “I’m one of you,” but other than that, no.

    The world is not ruled by symbols but by ideas. Symbolic associations are too easily transferred from one idea to the other to exert control on anyone’s mind.

    Sorry, but that site has the association backwards.

  158. Santa is an emasculated Odin/Thor who eats too much. I’m down. Sort of. But playing Gideon tearing down baals gets dangerous and more than a little unfair or hateful really fast. A Web site is not really a court conviction and people do use symbols very differently.

    The red cross isn’t about Ares or crucifiction England or probably even Saint George when you see it on a van. It means medicine and aid. Where it comes from or what it is elsewhere is not the same as what is on that van.

  159. Atheists fear God cooties from the Ten Commandments. I say instead of going gaga over occult cooties in turn, we leave the primitive superstition to the atheists.

  160. Symbolism (words, art, monuments) only has the power that the beholder gives them. A piece of statuary, a book or a painting in itself has no power over anyone or anything. It’s part of the reason that modern art is such a bag of crap. It can mean anything to anyone who is viewing it and can have as many interpretations as it has viewers. A book in a foreign language means nothing to one not versed in that language.

    Biblical scripture and its interpretation has been the source of scholarship for millennia. Due to its longevity and its truth, it is enduring and speaks to each of us in different ways yet the intent of the authors is anchored in the same truth.

  161. next on “o’really”: the cross and mason jars.

  162. > Personally I DO believe in Satan, who is busy convincing the world he doesn’t exist. <

    well have you talked about al gore lately hmm?

  163. I say instead of going gaga over occult cooties in turn, we leave the primitive superstition to the atheists.

    Right you are. I’ve been saying the same.

  164. ” The Mason jar was invented and patented in 1858 by Philadelphia tinsmith John Landis Mason[1][2] (1832-1902). Among other common names for them are Ball jars,[3] after Ball Corporation, an early and prolific manufacturer of the jars; fruit jars for a common content; and simply glass canning jars reflecting their material. ”

    So yes, the Maltese Cross on a fireman’s helmet means that the fire department are Knights of St. Joh Hospitaller in disguise, or else that they work for the Kaiser.

  165. It’s part of the reason that modern art is such a bag of crap. It can mean anything to anyone who is viewing it and can have as many interpretations as it has viewers.

    If you appeal to the intent of the modern artist, the meaning is pretty clear: “SCREW YOU AND THE BOURGEOIS TASTES YOU RODE IN ON.”

  166. “It’s part of the reason that modern art is such a bag of crap.”

    I give you Pierro Manzoni:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist's_Shit

  167. That’s correct, di and the reason realism is sneered at. I mean which would you rather have? I landscape or a tumbleweed with tampons tied to it inside a barbed wire cage?

    Art shows are a scream, though. I love to walk through them and listen to the pretentious tug their chin beards while opining about symbolism.

  168. So, how about them Patriots?

  169. That’s charming, palaeo. Most artists today seem to be anally fixated. They are like toddlers being toilet-trained, what with their fixation on genitals and bodily wastes.

  170. >So, how about them Patriots?<

    do change the subject. i show
    and mason jars!!11!!

  171. Pats are killing it. What’s the spread?

  172. “If Christians are interpreting the All-Seeing Eye of God as a representation of one’s accountability to God on Judgement Day, then the satanists failed to corrupt Christianity”

    If Christians think one’s accountability to God on Judgement Day is about following the law of Moses, their religion has been corrupted. God is not watching to make sure we follow the law. We are saved by faith, not works. Good works are the natural response to believing in Christ.

    The all seeing eye with the ten commandments has Alinski’s 4th rule all over it. You know, in the book he dedicated to Lucifer.

  173. Most artists today seem to be anally fixated.

    Unless they’re feminists, in which case

  174. html fail

    Kaiser Permanente pats 43 ind 22 driving

  175. >We are saved by faith, not works.<

    that's so proggtarded "hi great society"

  176. Also, I might add, the book Hillary and Obama and a whole host of proggs are well versed on. Maybe even a Oklahoma City councilman.

  177. >We are saved by faith, not works<
    a "compassionate conservative" you go gwb clowns.

  178. Well, I figured it would be vaginal of some sort. Yuck.

    Who indemnifies the poor MFAs who must display this stuff from communicable disease? Of course, they may not be worried about that and consider it an honor to contract hepatitis B from Artiste l’femme.

  179. You know, in the book he dedicated to Lucifer.

    He dedicated it to the Romantic Ideal of Lucifer, who was the Ultimate Rebel Against the Man.

    If Christians think one’s accountability to God on Judgement Day is about following the law of Moses, their religion has been corrupted.

    I doubt they made that connection. Presenting the Ten Commandments is an homage to the original lawgiver, who instead of being an arbitrary judge insisted that rule of law be in operation among the Israelites.

    God Is Watching applies to anyone who believes in Judgement Day.

  180. God is everywhere. He keeps His eye on the sparrow. Of course He’s watching us.

  181. colts going to the glue factory

  182. Ah, the romantic Lucifer. Not to be confused with the real Lucifer, rebel against God.

    I see.

  183. Ya gotta love Saul’s magnificent sense of humor though, don’tcha? It’s like every time a little sparrow chirps, Saul get’s his dedication giggles on. The man knew his marks, b0th in their coming and in their going, both in the cons and the pros.

  184. >Of course He’s watching us.<

    Oh Happy Day – The Edwin Hawkins Singers

  185. Maybe even an Oklahoma City councilman.

    Rules for Radicals isn’t about satanism, but it is satanic in its way.

    Alinsky was nearly sociopathic if not entirely so. He was interested only in the gamesmanship of taking power from the Haves and giving it to the Have Nots. He was in it for the thrill, not any kind of Leftist Utopia, which he didn’t believe in. He also didn’t believe in Satan or God or anything more supernatural than his own awesomeness. His dedication to Lucifer was a literary allusion to the Ur-Usurper.

    Hillary and Obama, however, find that Alinsky’s amoral teachings fit right into their nihilistic power-grabs.

    How old is that monument? Does it predate RfR?

  186. the arrival of the auto burrito in burpbank is “oh happy!!11!! days”

  187. Ah, the romantic Lucifer. Not to be confused with the real Lucifer, rebel against God.

    The Romantics used Lucifer as the archetypal rebel against authority, not against righteousness. They saw Lucifer as a tragic figure who chafed against the iron rule of The Man, because God had the first word and the last word and you couldn’t question him without being punished (the old egotist). All Lucifer wanted was to be his own man, to be free, to chart his own course. The French Revolution is rooted in this prizing of freedom against Authority.

    That said every last one of Alinsky’s references to anything outside of power-lust is a calculated lie. He frequently references scripture and then “interprets” it to its ends.

    Didn’t you see my series on Alinsky, back when the pub existed? I totally went over Alinsky’s disingenuous, twisted use of scripture.

  188. Romans 3:20
    For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

  189. No, Basc, not the “romantic” Lucifer, the Romantic Ideal. There IS a difference.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

    If you are going to deliberately misunderstand, you could be a little more subtle about it.

  190. >I totally went over Alinsky’s disingenuous, twisted use of scripture. <

    "he" farts in your general direction missey. ax rochester? or gas symphony.

  191. i see your Romans 3:20 and say heil baracky. oh nice axelrod you have!

  192. Howard Hanson, Symphony no. 2, Adagio — Allegro Moderato, The Romantic

  193. Increasingly I wonder why anyone feels compelled to parachute in here to troll…

  194. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight

    In the absence of the Atonement there is no salvation. In the shadow of the Law of Moses, it was important to make clear that obedience to the law was supposed to teach the Israelites, not to save them. The Jews of Jesus’ era figured that simply being the children of Abraham was enough to ensure them a place in heaven.

  195. “Ah, the romantic Lucifer. Not to be confused with the real Lucifer, rebel against God. I see. – ”

    Alinsky put that in there to scare the white Christian pussies he intended his movement and methods to eventually mug. He’d have put abracadabra if he thought it would get a similar amount of shock and outrage.

    I doubt the Pagans biker gang seriously believes that they are the earthly followers of an immprtal fire giant who dwells in muspellheim. But they do know who sets the world on fire after the gods lose Gotterdamerung 4:3 in a tie breaker overtime because Frey didn’t have his magic sword anymore. And they like how that scares people. They are saying “we work for the guy who burns the world down, now ARE YOU A COP!?” But they don’t believe in Surtr.

  196. I see your symphony and raise you a 24-hour video.

    Earworm alert!

  197. Ok, yeah, but Rochester! Gassy! Romance! Alien devil! To say nothing of a beautiful resolution.

  198. >the law comes knowledge of sin.<

    ax eric holder about "sin" or "white privilege"

  199. >Hanson Symphony No. 2 Romantic <

    meh

  200. The romantics linked Lucifer to Prometheus btw. And Prometheus ain’t just a bad movie with a stupid biologist, a penis snake with a vagina mouth, evil goop, and post squid removal abdominal staples in it.

    In the classical world, Prometheus was a satanic chaotic figure despite his intentions towards man being kind or at least motivated by his pity for them. He was a nice guy but he defied the gods and it caused more harm than good and endangered mankind.

    He saw man shivering in the cold night and so brought mankind fire and made him a tool user and a wall builder. This eased the toil and suffering of man but caused him to rise up in hubris and disrespect the authority of the gods(who having seen power pass from Uranus to the Titans under Cronus and then to them under Zeus, and who knew that Gaia conspired against them as well, suffered no rivals).

    Satan brought the knowledge of good and evil, temptation, and disobedience. Before Satan man knew no suffering and after him was cursed to toil and die and contend with serpents. Satan acted out of malice and spite and sought to degrade man as he had already degraded himself.

    With very different motives the two did much the same thing. They threatened the heavenly order and put mankind in contention with the divinity. To the romantics they both broke the equilibrium and so catalized the formation of our modern secular age, and forcing the divinity to respond in some way.

  201. >
    , gla’zoo-nof”, ALEXANDER.A
    composer, died in Paris, March 21. Born
    Petersburg, Aug. 10, 1865, he attended the
    nic Institute there until 1883. A love of
    was early instilled in him by his mother, and
    k lessons in pianoforte and elementary theory
    Elenovsky, when he soon showed special apfor
    composition. Following the’ advice of
    irev in 1879, he continued his general educaand
    in a year or two was placed ‘with Rimskyakov
    as a private pupil. His progress was rap-
    IDs musical memory phenomenal, and at the age
    6 he composed his first symphony, which was
    Inced by Balakirev at the Free School in 1882.
    – he rewrote five times before publishing it. At
    the same time, he wrote Quarte! it! D (op. 1)
    Pianoforte Sttite on the theme Sacha (op, 2).
    first overture, on Greek themes, was introby
    Rubinstein at the Russian, ‘Musical So-
    ~.
    His work began to be known outside of Russia
    rough his friendship with Liszt, who introduced
    – first symphony at Weimar in 1884<

  202. Drumwaster, I’m not deliberately misunderstanding, I am rejecting the idea Alinski dedicated his book to some Romantic idea of Lucifer. I think he was a true believer. As Are many of the worlds rich and powerful.

    Here, read this or don’t if you’re scared.

    And no, I’m not accusing New Yorkers of being Satanists.

  203. fyi wiki

    >Alexander Konstantinovich Glazunov[1] (10 August[2] 1865 – 21 March 1936) was a Russian composer of the late Russian Romantic period, music teacher and conductor. He served as director of the Saint Petersburg Conservatory between 1905 and 1928 and was also instrumental in the reorganization of the institute into the Petrograd Conservatory, then the Leningrad Conservatory, following the Bolshevik Revolution. He continued heading the Conservatory until 1930, though he had left the Soviet Union in 1928 and did not return.[3] The best known student under his tenure during the early Soviet years was Dmitri Shostakovich.
    Glazunov was significant in that he successfully reconciled nationalism and cosmopolitanism in Russian music. While he was the direct successor to Balakirev’s nationalism, he tended more towards Borodin’s epic grandeur while absorbing a number of other influences. These included Rimsky-Korsakov’s orchestral virtuosity, Tchaikovsky’s lyricism and Taneyev’s contrapuntal skill. His weaknesses were a streak of academicism which sometimes overpowered his inspiration and an eclecticism which could sap the ultimate stamp of originality from his music.[citation needed] Younger composers such as Prokofiev and Shostakovich eventually considered his music old-fashioned while also admitting he remained a composer with an imposing reputation and a stabilizing influence in a time of transition and turmoil.[4]<

  204. Rockefeller Center is replete with symbols that were important to early 20th-century Progressives.

    Given that they were up to no good, I’m cool with calling it all sinister.

    However.

    The proprietor of that site fundamentally misunderstands how symbolism works. Instead of appealing to the intent of those who put the symbols there, he looks at how other people used those symbols.

    You have to interpret the symbols at Rockefeller Plaza in terms of how the progressives understood them. That’s wicked enough without bringing in other stuff.

    I am rejecting the idea Alinsky dedicated his book to some Romantic idea of Lucifer. I think he was a true believer.

    In the real Lucifer, Prince of Darkness?

    It seems, rather, that Alinsky is one of those whom Satan persuaded he didn’t exist. That doesn’t mean Alinsky’s paths and ideas aren’t satanic and corrupt, just that Alinsky did not consciously pledge discipleship to Beelzebub. Alinsky’s only god was his own narcissism. (Being dead, he may already be disabused about whose paths he was treading, but in life he would not have believed that the devil existed.)

    Satan corrupts the world by concealing his hand, not by tipping it. Satan is God’s ape. He deals in counterfeits such as Liberation Theology and the War on Poverty. He appears as an angel of Light and quotes scripture. He points to the so-called Satanists and denounces them either as evil or as deluded fools—he’d never publicly associate himself with something so obviously evil.

    Using pentagrams and other satanic symbols would undermine his project of convincing the world that he doesn’t exist.

    As I said, the proprietor of that site has his causality backwards: symbols cannot rule the world. The “pentagrams” on the older LDS temples don’t imbue the structures with satanic influence, nor were my ancestors duped by Satan into putting them there.

    Not sure why a regular at Protein Wisdom would also frequent a site whose notions about semiotics are at 180° from intentionalism, but whatevs.

  205. >His work began to be known outside of Russia
    through his friendship with Lisat, who introduced
    .- first symphony at Weimar in 1884. He himself
    conducted his own works in Paris five years later,
    and also directed in London. With Rirnsky-Korsakov
    and Liadov, he conducted the Russian Symphony
    concerts at Petrograd (1896-97), and in
    1899 joined the staff of the Imperial Conservatory
    as a teacher of orchestration. His Fourth Symphony
    was played by the Philharmonic Society,
    London, in 1897, and his Fifth Symphony was heard
    at the Queen’s Hall Symphony concerts in the same
    year. In 1909, he was appointed director of the Conservatory,
    holding that office until 1912, when he
    resumed his classes in orchestration. Although not
    in sympathy with the revolutionary cause, he remained
    in Russia after 1917 and fought to maintain
    the high standard of the Leningrad Conservatory.
    He visited the United States in 1929 and made his
    < ew York debut on December 3 at the -Metropolitan
    Opera House, where he conducted an orchestral
    programme of his own works. During this visit he
    appeared also as a guest of the Detroit, Boston,
    Chicago, and Philadelphia orchestras.
    Before 1900, Glazunov was recognized as one of
    the more prominent of the Russian composers, and
    as early as 1882 he was invited by the Chicago Columbia
    Exposition to compose something for the
    Exposition. Unlike most of his countrymen, he was
    not attracted to opera or to individual songs, but
    to instrumental music, and his work was influenced
    by Western composers, particularly Brahms. Although
    a disciple of the new Russian school, his:
    work was colored by an adherence to classical
    forms, and while melodious, with distinct and original
    harmony, it' was characterized by melancholia.
    With Rimsky-Korsakov, he stood acknowledged a
    master of orchestration.
    <

    who?

  206. “The repetitive headdesks will eventually render me unconscious, and when I awaken,”

    …I will be the oft-concussed Eric Lindros.

  207. Or maybe even Mason Williams.

  208. Ya gotta love Saul’s magnificent sense of humor though, don’tcha?

    He was some salesman. I could have used him on my crew.

  209. Di, Republican Rep. Mike Ritze and his family paid nearly $10,000 to build and erect the 6-foot-tall granite monument authorized by the GOP-controlled Legislature in 2009 and signed into law by Democratic Gov. Brad Henry.

  210. Lee’s site author’s grudging bio:

    I’m a man in his early 30?s and happily married. I was born and raised in Canada, I love hockey, playing the guitar and old school video games. I was born into a Catholic family but, since I do not identify myself with the man-made institutions and dogmas surrounding religious denominations, I today simply consider myself as “Christian”.
    This website is however not about religion but about an objective analysis of the symbolism and messages found in popular culture. Since mass media pushes the same agenda and values across the world, the information on this site should be useful to all, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity or religion.

    The scare quotes on Christian? Sure, pal.

  211. I am a bit tired of people (not from here) sending me links to photoshops of giant Anunaki /Nephilim skeletons, Nibiru sightings, and crap about Olmec heads in North Africa and such.

    I’m sure that Lemuria is awesome and such but give me a break. A 16 foot tall human skeleton would be in a museum and I’d be standing in line to see it. Giant planets are easy to spot, and no, I don’t think the Berbers are descended from Olmecs or vice versa. I also don’t believe that Machu Picchu was built with sonic stone levitation or that there is a giant secret hole in Northern California or Oregaon that goes down to the earth’s core or another dimension.

    Yes the shadow people are watching us masturbate in the dark and sometimes they call out suggestions or hold up a score card. Their culture is very different than ours and they mean no offense. They live by stealing and eating socks gaining energy from producing the static electric mismatch of a broken entanglement. Long ago in the time of tribes and glaciers they taught our ancestors how to make tennis visors and coozies from slaughtered mega-deer. In 2012 all the shadow people moved out of New York because the rent was too damned high. They also drove the megalodon to extinction 10,000 years ago, because the shark was too damned big.

    Also shadow people is not a dog whistle. I know it sounds like one, but then a lot of people think Chef Boyardee is a dog whistle too, if and when instructed to by some snotty NPR puke looking to cause some trouble. Because fairness.

  212. I am rejecting the idea Alinski dedicated his book to some Romantic idea of Lucifer. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52421#comment-1050063

    You are now misquoting, while insisting that you are not misunderstanding, either through ignorance or deliberately.

    It was not some “romantic idea” it was the Romantic Ideal. Romanticism was the era wherein Man’s emotions were declared supreme, with no place for any overriding Authority, whether a Deity or ancient theologies. As Di pointed out, Lucifer was the Ideal, wherein Man can say, “Hey, this is the creature that told God to get stuffed, so why can’t we?”

    The Ideal is not the Reality, but what the Reality can become, and it is that being, not the incarnate personification of Evil, that Alinsky would have had in mind, specifically as a counter-balance to the religious beliefs of America at that time. But in his narcissism, he would not have actually thought — and probably specifically denied — that Lucifer could actually exist, because if Satan did, then so must God, and that simply wasn’t to be allowed in his “Me First” worldview.

    Do you honestly think that the Pastafarians actually think there is a Deity composed of squiggly carbohydrates? Or are they using it solely to denigrate the beliefs of those they see as “backwards”, clinging to their Gods and their guns, much as Alinsky recommends, and his compatriots do today?

  213. The ones that freak me out are the Jedi. You want to be a bunch of painfully gullible and dogma blinded, telekinetic, empathic, acrobatic, monastic, zen space-swordsmen, infected by some alien organism that gives them their powers, who failed to protect their quasi-republic thing and got shot in the back en masse by brainwashed warrior clones because the enemy they put in power got tired of them?

  214. And FWIW, it was planetary observations of Venus that gave rise to the five pointed star, not Christianity or its counterpart. (Minor errors lie in observational accuracy of ancient times.)

    http://www.lunarplanner.com/Images/Venus/pent%20drift.gif

    from here:

    http://www.lunarplanner.com/HCpages/Venus.html

  215. Small quibble:

    I’m not at all certain that Lucifer – mentioned only once ever in the Bible in Isaiah 14:12 – and Satan are synonymous. In context, it may well refer to an earthly ruler of Babylon, who was being referenced as early as verse 3 in the chapter.

    dicentra says January 11, 2014 at 11:48 pm

    It seems like my entire life I have encountered no shortage of people who elevate “satanic symbols” over evil behavior in priority of things to avoid.

    I agree that Satan’s typical MO is subversive and clandestine, but I don’t know that he would be immune to the pride of open action against God and creation were he to judge that a population was so perverse that such was possible.

  216. I still remember his AGW argument comparing the atmospheres of Venus and Earth. “We know CO2 causes warming because look at the atmosphere of Venus, and look how hot it is”

    Venus is only hot because of that painting.

    Seriously, Venus is as hot as it is because it has an enormously thick atmosphere, and because it’s closer to the sun. It would however be interesting to know how hot Venus would be if it had an atmosphere that dense that was composed mainly of e.g. nitrogen.

  217. Oh, and Bill Nye is not a very smart guy if he’s spouting stuff like that.

    Oh, he’s got a BSME. It just about perfectly balances with my BSEE, only he’s an idiot.

  218. “Not sure why a regular at Protein Wisdom would also frequent a site whose notions about semiotics are at 180° from intentionalism, but whatevs”

    You are right. I do not belong here.

  219. My kids used to watch Bill Nye the Science Guy back in the day.

    That’s his niche and he should stay there.

  220. And of course intent is always determined by what the author says it is, even when discussing the intent of “the father of lies”. Everyone at PW knows that.

  221. Oh, c’mon Lee. The author of that site claims he is being objective. He is using a very elastic definition of objective since his observations are all subjective.

  222. Or was that a dogwhistle?

  223. Dog whistles are for dogs.

  224. leigh says January 12, 2014 at 12:09 pm

    My kids used to watch Bill Nye the Science Guy back in the day.

    That’s his niche and he should stay there.

    I’d prefer to keep him away from my kids, or would if I had any.

    My first recollections of him are from a sketch comedy show called “Almost Live”.

    Interesting that the name he has been made reasonably famous for “the science guy” was merely a rather weak punchline.
    ” The host responded, ‘Who do you think you are—Bill Nye the Science Guy?’. “

  225. That was around 20 years ago that my older boys watched him. He did mainly harmless stuff that was helpful for young kids to understand distance and action/reaction.

    He also had a thing for bananas that was kind of creepy, now that I think about it.

  226. authorized by the GOP-controlled Legislature in 2009

    It’s contemporary?

    Ok, then, that changes the all-seeing eye thing (to what I don’t know), unless they were copying the design from an older monument.

    The spelling errors are therefore unacceptable.

  227. I’m not at all certain that Lucifer – mentioned only once ever in the Bible in Isaiah 14:12 – and Satan are synonymous.

    LDS scripture identifies them as the same being. YMMV.

    And of course intent is always determined by what the author says it is, even when discussing the intent of “the father of lies”.

    The intent is of the person who put the symbol on the building or the monument or whatever. That it was Satan’s intent for it to go there is yet to be shown.

    Satan’s stated intent is to deceive mankind. Whether his method is to spread his symbols abroad is yet to be shown. For my money, that guy’s website isn’t probative of jack.

    I’d keep kids away from BNSG if only because that establishes him as an authority on science, and it makes it harder to reject Global Insanity. I used to have a crush on BNSG back in the day, and I’m sorely disappointed to see that he is not an honest man.

  228. Mike Ritze represents Broken Arrow, which is a community close by and south of Tulsa. He is a doctor, according to his bio. I previously knew nothing about him and now I know this stuff. With these facts in hand, I’m willing to bet he’s a Mason and a Baptist and a cheapskate who commissioned the monument from the lowest bidder.

    That or he is a high profile public figure who is comfortable flaunting his satanic impulses on the courthouse lawn. Sticking it in the all seeing eye, as it were.

  229. “Satan’s stated intent is to deceive mankind.”

    Doubtful. Where did Satan state that?

    Satan is at war with God; mankind, the creation of God, is hated by Satan, and he intends to destroy us, not merely deceive us. The deceit is a tactic in the strategy toward an end.

    You can talk all you want about appealing to the authors intent, but if you go draping a Christian church with occult symbols, don’t be surprised people doubt your rstated agenda.

    Like if you insist on calling the black powder salt and the white powder pepper, people are going to think you’re not quite right, and will wonder what’s really in the stew.

  230. but if you go draping a Christian church with occult symbols

    I believe that is known as “begging the question” — it includes the unproven assumption that the symbols are intended to be “occult” (whatever that means) or whether that assertion comes after the fact by someone with an agenda of their own.

    (cv the origins of the swastika mentioned above)

  231. Whatevs (I believe is the current haughty dismissal in vogue).

    I guess symbols are but blank slates waiting for signification of whatever nature anyone wishes to impart at the moment.

    I just don’t get why all those scary movie use pentagrams and the like, why they could well mean anything! Why, I bet Ramirez used them to project world peace and brotherly love!

    Probably why companies copyright their logos, to stop people from using them for a completely different thing.

  232. The author of that blog doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

  233. Ramirez was a murderous meth head. Having been married to one non-murderous one, you should know they talk a lot of smack and believe it when they say and deny it when you confront them about it.

    Serial killers tend to be serial liars. The only thing he didn’t lie about was trying to be the worst (read: most prolific) serial killer in history.

    He failed.

  234. “(cv the origins of the swastika mentioned above)”

    What you should do is get a big red flag with a swastika on it an fly it proudly in front of your house.

    I’m sure your neighbors will understand. And if they don’t, it’s ‘cuz THEY are stupid and ignorant, screw’em.

  235. I just don’t get why all those scary movie use pentagrams and the like, why they could well mean anything!

    Are you attempting to claim that some symbols have an inherent meaning, utterly devoid of societal, military or religious attribution? How about numbers? Colors? I want to know how far this argument extends…

    I’ve already shown that the five-pointed star pre-dated Christianity and the swastika was around long before the Third Reich. Once the star was first applied to Christianity in some respect, its inversion was intended to imply the reverse of Christianity, which is where it holds its current connotation. Same with the swastika, as that symbol’s meaning has been entirely reversed by its more modern associations.

    BUT THAT WILL NOT HOLD. Some centuries or millennia from now, it will be used to mean something else entirely, solely depending on what the needs or desires of that era might be. There are words which mean exactly the opposite of what they used to mean. “Bad” means “good”, “awful” used to mean “awe-inspiring”, and there are many others. Words are, at their root, merely collections of spell-symbols and phonemes.

  236. What you should do is get a big red flag with a swastika on it an fly it proudly in front of your house.

    Yes, because every symbol was created with the intention that it be used solely as it is being used today. Lucky for your argument that nothing ever changes. Ever.

  237. Probably why companies copyright their logos

    Which effort would fail completely. Now if they wanted to trademark them, that would be a different story.

  238. My argument is the all seeing eye is not and has never been a symbol associated with Christianity. Neither has a pentagram or it’s twin an upside down star. If you want to argue it has been, fine, argue away.

  239. I admit a sketchy understanding of the nuances of copyright, trademark, patent and the like…or the difference. I doubt that fact really obscured my point into incomprehension though.

  240. “Never been.”

    Never ever.

    http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/symbols/5-point-star.htm

    Never not once.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_seeing_eye (aka “Eye of Providence”/”All-Seeing Eye of God” )

    Care to try again, or are you going to double down on ignorance?

  241. First link; that star ain’t upside down.

    Your Wiki link say’s the all seeing eye is associated with masonic influences and divine providence, so I’ll concede that.

    Not a fan of either myself…

  242. pink stars falling in lines

  243. First link; that star ain’t upside down.

    The inverted star was intended to mean the opposite of the right-side-up star, as was explained above. Deliberately so. Which is why the usage tends to imply Satanic associations, even today. (It would have been rather stupid to try and invert something that had nothing to do with religion, such as, say, a picture of a puppy.)

    Your Wiki link say’s the all seeing eye is associated with masonic influences and divine providence, so I’ll concede that.

    When it was used in the Great Seal, it had not yet been used by Masons (its first use was a decade after its adoption by the fledgling US). Its connotation PRIOR to that date was entirely religious, dating back to the Egyptians, and continues to be used that way in many venues. But even the Masons intended it to imply religious oversight (by the Great Architect).

    Nice of you to concede the obvious, though. It took me about 30 seconds to find those links.

  244. I will never claim lack of ignorance, or wallow in over educated arrogance.

    Like I said, I don’t belong here.

    Not that I’m above pointing out I was restricting my argument to Christianity, not ‘religion’.

    And that it was previously the ancient Egyptian Eye of Horus was kinda my point.

  245. Not that I’m above pointing out I was restricting my argument to Christianity, not ‘religion’. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52421#comment-1050244

    Please note that “religion” meant only one religion in Europe of that era, and minor variations thereof. Do you need me to pull up specific links to Christianity for those two symbols you argued that had “never been” associated with the believers of Jesus Christ? Or are you just going to continue to resort to snark when all else has failed?

    Fine, here you go.

    http://christianity.about.com/od/symbolspictures/ig/Christian-Symbols-Glossary/Christian-Stars.htm

    The five-pointed star is also a symbol of Christianity associated with the birth of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

    However, the association of an eye with the concept of Divine Providence did not emerge until the Christian era.

    In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity.

  246. The site’s tag line is “Symbols rule the world, not words nor laws”

    …and here is this guy’s first huge problem.

    This is the equivalent of the pop-tart “gun” incident.

    If symbols are so powerful and all, why did God waste his time trying to reach us with a book of words and laws? We really just needed a book of symbols, obviously.

  247. You kid, right? Gods law couldn’t rule the Garden of Eden, where things were perfect and the was only one law.

    God made the word flesh, which was promptly crucified.

    Let me give you a clue to what I think the guy is getting at. Know that green paper in your wallet? It’s actually a symbol for something. Something that actually rules the world.

    I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

  248. Is that “I don’t think so” the same level of certainty as your “argument” above? Because you need to explain a bit more (specifically, what symbol — the piece of paper? the images that appear on them? the drive to collect them? The idea behind “economics” in general?) before I start explaining exactly how you are wrong.

    ProTip: It isn’t “money” in and of itself that is the root of all evil, but the love of money. Look it up. A lot of people get that wrong. (1 Timothy 6:10) Jesus wasn’t pissed at the money changers because of what they were doing (making it possible for foreign travelers to donate to the Temple in the local currency), but where they were doing it.

    And God’s Law DID rule the Garden of Eden. It still would, if we knew where it was. Once that Law was broken (through an act of free will), Man was booted from the Garden.

    And that Flesh being crucified was kind of the point of being made flesh to begin with.

  249. And God’s Law DID rule the Garden of Eden. It still would, if we knew where it was. Once that Law was broken (through an act of free will), Man was booted from the Garden.

    And that Flesh being crucified was kind of the point of being made flesh to begin with.

    I’m glad I read all the comments since I was just going to say this.

    As previously stated, the fellow who runs that blog is a sophist. He needs to marshal his thinking into something that will allow him to express his opinions without making huge errors in logic. Simply stating, “Therefore X means Satan!” means jack when you are spit-balling. He has made several fundamental errors regarding the Mormon church’s use of architectural details and is coming dangerously
    close to a “Juden!” mentality as per the LDS. The LDS are very used to defending themselves against the “ignernt”, but I have a feeling this guy has stopped up his ears.

    I await his exegesis on Catholics next.

    His heart may be in his work, but his premise is false.

  250. I’m not a fan of symbols, symbolism, and suchlike. Don’t get me wrong, symbols can be important, but I generally see them as a bad thing. The Constitution has largely been reduced to a symbol of what it once stood for (as has the Bible), and that was done intentionally. The purpose? The symbol is malleable (living and breathing Constitution); the words, much less so.

    As for the symbolism directly in the Bible, there is quite a bit of it. Mostly type and anti-type stuff (Christ as both high-priest and King after the order of Melchizedek), that is useful as a proof for showing an overarching will driving the events of the plan of salvation throughout history. There is also a lot of symbolic imagery such as “the cross” invoked often in the writings of Paul as an image of the place of Christ’s sacrifice, and all that that entails.

    That said, I haven’t seen anything in the scriptures to explain or justify physical symbols, talismans, icons, and such, which is why I’m dubious of such symbols in general. I highly doubt any of the first century Christians would have worn a little cross around their neck, and in fact, I doubt the actual cross bore much resemblance to the lower-case “t” most people today attribute to the event. It was almost certainly a heavy lintel set atop a fixed post making an upper-case “T” that was used in crucifixions.

    Because of this, (and some other reasons), I’m a lot more concerned with attitudes and actions of people and groups, rather than symbols of “evil” and “good”.

  251. Simply stating, “Therefore X means Satan!” means jack when you are spit-balling.

    It means even less when the symbology has been perverted over the years to mean what it is alleged that it means today, rather than what it was intended to mean when it was first used. Claiming that the “all-seeing eye” “proves” that the US is controlled by the Masons is utter bullshit when the US was using it long before the Masons got the idea.

    I’ve always had a desire to know what holy symbol Christians would use if Christ were merely hung, rather than crucified… a little noose? a gallows? (Alternate histories can be amusing.)

  252. Beaten? Tiny clubs above the altar.

  253. I guess it’s a good thing they didn’t have lethal injections back then…

  254. As has been stated many times, the symbols themselves have no power.

    A true believer does not need any symbol of his faith (Crucifix, Bible, religious medals, sanctified oil, holy water, even the Host) to cast out a demon, regardless of what the movies love to show.

  255. I think you guys are confused over what rules the world these days Jesus is returning to rule the world, but He doesn’t yet. Is why we are told we are to be in the world but not of the world.

    I won’t get into what I think of the Mormon church, but for myself, I wouldn’t go to one displaying all seeing eyes and pentagram a. YMMV.

    Also, by Drums logic, since the inquisition was part of Christian practice centuries ago, it must be legit today.

    You guys made up your minds first, then argue to prove your position instead of having an honest conversation

    Except Mondamay. He at least is being thoughtful and not hostile. Thanks Mondamay!

  256. I wouldn’t go to one displaying all seeing eyes and pentagram

    I wouldn’t even work at a pentagram-shaped building, come to think of it. Five-sided things iz eeevul.

    Which is why soccer balls are covered with them.

    Everything with five apexes is a pentagram, yaknow.

    Hey, you know what else has pentagrams in it? Evilness confirmed!

  257. Also, by Drums logic, since the inquisition was part of Christian practice centuries ago, it must be legit today.

    Quite a lot of good, high-quality straw you just wasted there…

    (See, there is a difference between not only the symbol and its meaning, especially over time, but also between symbols and actions.)

    I’m still waiting for you to state your position, so it can be argued, rather than the half-baked, wholly-idiotic assertions you keep dropping, and then pretending, “Oh, that isn’t me saying those things, I’m JUST ASKING QUESTIONS.”

    I won’t get into what I think of the Mormon church

    Yeah, exposing your bigotry would tend to eliminate any chance of people taking you seriously. That’s okay, no one is taking you seriously anyway, so you might as well…

  258. You know what else is intrinsically evil? Eyeballs.

  259. I think you guys are confused over what rules the world these days

    To quote a very smart lady, “Be explicit or be misunderstood.” You have said that it is the little pieces of paper in my wallet (is it just the paper in my wallet? KEWL!) that rules the world, and have yet to explain that, but you are now doubling down on the statement, with no actual reasoning behind it.

  260. Also, by Drums logic, since the inquisition was part of Christian practice centuries ago, it must be legit today.

    Nonsense.

    I think God has a terrific sense of humor. The Romans, exercising free will, kill the Son of God. Where is Vatican City located? That’s right: Rome (although technically VC is its own city) is now home to the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. The Pope in turn is leader of 1.2 billion Catholics world-wide.

    The many statues carved by Michelangelo include one of Moses, cradling the ten commandments. Moses sports some devil’s horns.

    Thoughts?

  261. Wikipedia has some things to say on what inspired those horns.

    Which aren’t necessarily devilish, unless it had appeared in a Mormon Temple somewhere.

  262. And now I’m a hated enemy and object of ridicule because we have a difference of opinion.

    Whatevs. Carry on.

  263. It’s not the difference of opinion. It’s that your opinion is based on something laughably absurd.

    The self-pity isn’t going to help, either.

  264. Not hated enemy, but I’m still waiting for you to be specific about exactly what it is about the paper in my wallet that rules the world. How can we have a difference of opinion if you haven’t ever actually stated your own opinion?

    Take your time.

  265. My brothers belong to an organization that uses “occult” symbols.

    Closet Satanists, I imagine.

  266. Closet Satanists AND Muslims. Confusing.

  267. Drumwaster says January 13, 2014 at 10:24 am

    I’m still waiting for you to be specific about exactly what it is about the paper in my wallet that rules the world.

    Perhaps it’s the fiat money thing – money that is just a symbol for more abstract value.

    If it isn’t that, it may be the “mark” required for buying and selling, but that seems a little less likely to me. (Rev 13:17)

    LBascom says January 13, 2014 at 9:36 am – He at least is being thoughtful and not hostile. Thanks Mondamay!

    When I joined up here I told myself that one of the biggest problems with people is our propensity to be the harshest with people we have the most in common with; the old saw about the heretic being worse than the heathen comes to mind. I don’t want misunderstandings or my lack of patience to drive away or alienate anyone that I feel like I can learn from, and if I feel the need to be sharp, I’d rather it be with someone I have much less in common with, such as our resident cartoon rodent or the Legion of Steve.

  268. Perhaps it’s the fiat money thing – money that is just a symbol for more abstract value.

    Money is merely the symbol for ‘value received’, whether it’s salt blocks or brightly colored stones or stamped bits of metal or inked pieces of paper, and God is the one who created economy when He kicked Adam and Eve (and however many children they might have had at that point) out of the Garden (Gen 3: 17-19) — trading the “sweat of thy brow” for food, rather than the unending wealth of simply finding whatever they needed ready to hand.

    Its mere existence is not evil, nor does that existence “rule the world”.

    Nevertheless, I look forward to him actually explaining what he was getting at, rather than playing the martyr.

  269. I’m even less sanguine about modern money being the Mark of the Beast, given that the Revelations of John specifically states that it will be “receive{d} … in their right hand, or in their foreheads”, which implies a tattoo granting permission to trade, not the specie being traded…

  270. now I’m a hated enemy and object of ridicule because we have a difference of opinion. Whatevs. Carry on.

    Cripes, Lee. You’re a grown man. Stop getting your dress over your head.

  271. First link; that star ain’t upside down.

    When it is, the downward-facing point indicates the Star of Bethlehem, and the point indicates the place where Jesus was born. That’s another Christian use of the five-pointed star.

    The star with the point upward symbolizes the five wounds of Christ, so naturally the occult turns it upside-down, just as they use inverted crosses.

  272. Moses sports some devil’s horns.

    Michelangelo put them there to symbolize rays of light emanating from his visage. Scripture reports that when Moses descended with the tablets, his face shown. It’s hard to represent beams of light with stone, so that’s what Mike went with. We misinterpret them as “devil’s horns.”

    I won’t get into what I think of the Mormon church, but for myself, I wouldn’t go to one displaying all seeing eyes and pentagram.

    The chapels where we hold our Sunday meetings don’t have so much as a cross. They’re spectacularly unadorned. Now what?

    Look, you can think that we’re dead wrong and all wet and up in the night and not even wrong without imputing satanic impulses to us. Wouldja do me that small favor?

    And now I’m a hated enemy and object of ridicule because we have a difference of opinion.

    Intentionalism isn’t a matter of opinion: it’s how language works. You’re upset because we’re pointing out problems with your assumptions about how signification works and nobody here agrees with you.

    The Pennsylvania Dutch painted hexes on their barns to ward off evil. That’s the superstitious worldview, which holds that signifiers have intrinsic meaning and power. If you believe that a crucifix can ward off the evil eye, you’re participating in the superstitious worldview as well. (OTOH, if you use a crucifix to remind yourself of your Savior and exemplar, such that you turn your thoughts and actions to holiness, then you’re being religious.)

    So if you think that the LDS temple adornments imbue those structures with evil, then you’re a superstitious man, not a religious one. If you can acknowledge that my ancestors were not putting little shout-outs to the Prince of Darkness on temples ostensibly dedicated to the God of Israel, then you’re not.

  273. Thanks for making my point about Moses “devil’s horns” being misconstrued as horns instead of rays of light, di. The commoners of the 16th century were largely illiterate and the stories of the Bible were represented by the great statues, art and cathedrals. Catholic churches today continue to display representations of the Stations of the Cross that represent the Passion of Christ. The repetition of the prayers said when praying the rosary, have been shown to beneficial to regulating one’s heartbeat. Regularly confessing contrition for one’s sins keeps us on the straight and narrow. The fact that there have been unscrupulous Popes and crooked priests then and now, doesn’t detract from the glory and beauty of the faithful. It is merely a reminder that we are all sinners. All of us.

    Catholics keep statues of the Blessed Mother and their patron saints in the home displayed as one would pictures of loved ones who have passed on but are not forgotten. There are specific rules about such displays (not so strict today as in the past) such as the Crucifix may not be displayed on a wall with other art. Doing so detracts from the importance of the crucified Jesus and his suffering; the suffering that he did for us that we may have eternal life.

    All that said, I bought Hubs a hex sign for the barn since he grew up in Dutch Country and it’s a little bit of home.

  274. Since speaking of Satan seems to have a kind of currency here, I’ll mention that Insty has twice recently linked one of his favorite pieces of writing by Satan, a Memorandum, (from the Devil). It’s good stuff.

  275. PW; Come for the politics, stay for the theology banter.

  276. Wikipedia says this about the horn/beam thing:

    The statue has what are commonly accepted to be two horns on its head.[5][6][7][8][9]

    The depiction of a horned Moses stems from the description of Moses’ face as “cornuta” (“horned”) in the Latin Vulgate translation of the passage from Exodus in which Moses returns to the people after receiving the commandments for the second time.[10] The Douay-Rheims Bible translates the Vulgate as, “And when Moses came down from the mount Sinai, he held the two tables of the testimony, and he knew not that his face was horned from the conversation of the Lord.”[11] This was Jerome’s effort to faithfully translate the difficult, original Hebrew Masoretic text, which uses the term, karan (based on the root, keren, which often means “horn”); the term is now interpreted to mean “shining” or “emitting rays” (somewhat like a horn).[12][13] Although some historians believe that Jerome made an outright error,[14] Jerome himself appears to have seen keren as a metaphor for “glorified”, based on other commentaries he wrote, including one on Ezekiel, where he wrote that Moses’ face had “become ‘glorified’, or as it says in the Hebrew, ‘horned’.”[6]:77[9]:98–105 The Greek Septuagint, which Jerome also had available, translated the verse as “Moses knew not that the appearance of the skin of his face was glorified.”[15] In general medieval theologians and scholars understood that Jerome had intended to express a glorification of Moses’ face, by his use of the Latin word for “horned.”[6]:74–90 The understanding that the original Hebrew was difficult and was not likely to literally mean “horns” persisted into and through the Renaissance.[16]

    Sounds like a minor screwup in translation, rather than an attempt to depict rays of light.

  277. I look forward to a spirited debate along the lines of whether the original author of those verses intended “horned” (as in having literal horns), and suchlike.

  278. Sounds like it could be a halo, too Slarti.

    I had figured the horn dealio was because Moses was Jewish. My anti-Semitic grandparents insisted Jews had horns, after all.

  279. BTW these are nearly ubiquitous around where my dad lives in Indiana.

    Not sure if the Satan-worshipers turn theirs upside-down, though.

  280. You are in rare form today, leigh.

  281. Heh.

    All of the farm stores around here, Tractor Supply and the like sell those stars.

  282. My anti-Semitic grandparents insisted Jews had horns, after all.

    We remove ours at birth.

  283. Old masonry walls gettin’ bulgy? Here’s another.

  284. di, Protestant neighbors when I was a kid insisted Catholics had horns, as well.

  285. In upstate NY during the 1960s, a neighbor insisted that Mormons had built a transatlantic tunnel from England that emerged inside the Salt Lake Temple so that Mormon missionaries could steal young girls, drag them through the tunnel, and force them into polygamist marriages.

    Only reason people know about this crime is that some girls are able to leap from the temple windows and into the Great Salt Lake, where kindly fishermen rescue them from the surest of hells.

    She knew someone whose BiL was one of those fishermen, you liar!

  286. That’s funny. Pathetic, but funny.

  287. Damn, now I know how Frankenstein felt. What have I wrought?!

    Ok, first, mondamay says January 13, 2014 at 11:01 am;

    You Sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. Everyone would do well to heed your wise words.

    Drumwaster and Slarti, I have been a regular here for many years and have donated many hundreds of dollars to Jeff, yet you treat me like a common troll, debate in bad faith, and obviously have no interest in what I am actually saying, only reading my words with the intent of finding fault. I shall waste no more time on the likes of you. Don’t bother.

    Dicentra, I appreciate that you took heed of my attitude, and stopped treating me like just another twitter foe. Such displays of character are why you are held in high regard here, myself included. I don’t wish to debate my personal views on the LDS in public, if you are at all interested you may get my email from Jeff and you can have the opportunity to tell me where I am in error. Not that I imagine you give a rip what I think of your religion. In public I will only say I don’t consider you a minion of Lucifer, at least so far. ;-)

    For general consumption, I didn’t think I need say it, but I guess I do; any links I provide do not necessarily mean I agree with all or any of the views at that link. I will usually say what I am commenting on.

    The website in question I have linked at least half a dozen times before, usually prefaced with “Tinfoil Tuesday!” or such, and have explained before that it is a guilty pleasure, and while I don’t agree with everything the proprietor says (he’s a truther for example), I find much of what he writes very interesting, and the shear volume of examples of what he writes about is compelling.

    His Tag line (“symbols rule the world, not words nor laws”) are in quotes, so I think it’s from someone else, but I don’t know who or know of the context. As I said above, I think it is referring to money, as in fiat money being a symbol of wealth, having no intrinsic value on it’s own. As in the worldly “golden Rule”: He who has the gold, rules. I am not commenting on the evil of money, or the love of money, or the mark of the beast, or anything particularly religious. I’m just saying money rules this world. If you doubt me, try living without it. Also take a tally of how many impoverished people hold positions of power. This is our world, and words and laws can be bought.

    On top of that, I don’t think his interest in symbols is anti- intentionalist. It’s just that like words, symbols have meaning. In the same way that the ACA doesn’t make healthcare affordable, you can’t substitute £ for $ and double your portfolio. And symbols are everywhere. They work for business and money, ideas and mathematics (what does this = symbol mean?). A ring is a symbol of your love, and your neighborhood is a symbol of your success.

    To sum up, you are free to disagree with my opinion on the importance of symbols, but it is beyond me why you would get worked up at my belief they are important if you don’t. Kinda like an atheist getting worked up over what a believer thinks is sin. If you don’t believe in God, why do you care?

  288. debate in bad faith

    You have yet to actually explain, much less prove, your assertions above, and you accuse me of debating in bad faith? Good riddance, you lying piece of shit.

  289. Charming.

    Teach me more about Christianity!

  290. I’m not the one claiming that the symbols of Divine Providence on religious buildings are exactly the opposite, then running away without the stones to defend those bullshit claims. You want to debate honestly, get your panties pulled out of your ass and let’s debate. If not, go fuck yourself.

  291. Mr. Drumwaster for to call Mr. lee a “lying piece of shit” you should probably

    um

    well you should just rethink that

    cause of Mr. lee has been around forever and he’s a very consistent person with a very particular sort of integrity. He’s just kind of irascible is all. But if he went away it would not be “good riddance” it would be yet another sad departure of a long-time commenter.

    who says good riddance anyway

  292. Oh, and the claims about how much you have donated are of exactly the same level of evidentiary importance as helloI’malyingsackofshit‘s claims that he makes more than anyone else here.

    It is intended to suppress the opinions of others with the claim of “I’m more important than you are”. Which, again, go fuck yourself.

  293. well you should just rethink that

    If the shoe fits…

  294. oh my goodness that’s enough

    settle down

    I’ll make a nice plate of kippers

  295. Mondamay,

    You mentioned “Almost Live” earlier. I remember that show too. You from Seattle area too? (Go Hawks!)

  296. Teach me more about Christianity!

    The topic you introduced was symbolism. If you wish to learn more about Christianity, you can either go to Bible study, hit the Religion section of the bookstore or ask one of us in a less facetious tone of type.

    We’re here to help because we’re givers that way.

  297. Alternate Timeline

    LBascom links that site with the symbols.

    Dicentra protests.

    LBascom says: “Hey, any links I provide do not necessarily mean I agree with all or any of the views at that link.”

    Followed by a clarification on where the agreement is and is not.

    ***

    Why weren’t we in that universe to begin with? A sip of the sauce?

    if you are at all interested you may get my email from Jeff and you can have the opportunity to tell me where I am in error.

    aka Fruitless Conversation #15039

    The only opinion of my church that interests me is my own; it’s the only one that should, being based on my own experiences and observations. Not sure why someone else’s observations should have more weight than my own, especially since it’s my life I’m wagering, not yours or anyone else’s.

    I want your opinion on my church as much as you want my opinion of your mother — unless it’s a compliment, stuff it.

  298. Alternate Timeline […]

    “LBascom says: “Hey, any links I provide do not necessarily mean I agree with all or any of the views at that link.”

    Actually I said Relax, my mother is a Mormon. Which should have been a clue I don’t view Mormons as Satan worshipers, but you already had decided my intent was less important than defending your church even though you don’t care what I say about it, or believe what I am saying about symbols is true.

    “aka Fruitless Conversation #15039″

    Indeed. Which makes me wonder why you didn’t read: “I don’t wish to debate my personal views on the LDS in public, if you are at all interested…” and the following sentence: “Not that I imagine you give a rip what I think of your religion”, and figure out it was not my desire to have that fruitless conversation. I don’t know, maybe it needed to be your observation.

    I have come to the conclusion Mondamay has it right about the right’s tendency to eat it’s own. This is the second time in the last year I have strayed from the consensus view (on small matters no less) of the regulars commenting at the time, and come under intense attack complete with mocking, accusations of having the worst possible intent, bad faith projection of my position, and being called a dick or a lying piece of shit.

    It happens on a larger scale too, as in how Jeff has been treated by his contemporaries, and how the TEA Party base is treated by the RNC. The left is always happy to stick a knife in your guts, which is bad enough without having to worry about the right sticking it in your back. It is why PW is shrinking, progressivism is in ascendancy, and the Republic has crumbled.

    It is why from now I will have allegiance only to myself and those I know and trust in person. The rest of you anonymous internet heroes can save the world without me. Because you’re givers that way.

    Congrats Drum, you won the argument!

  299. I never thought I’d see you cast yourself as a victim, Lee. I’ve seen you jump on posters with both feet and kick the crap out of them, so you are hardly an innocent babe in the woods.

    Politics and religion are volatile topics. Someone is going to get their toes stepped on. Every time.

  300. Which should have been a clue I don’t view Mormons as Satan worshipers

    That doesn’t obtain at all. Your mother may have been bat-spittle crazy or cruel or sinful, thus poisoning your view of the LDS. Nobody hates Mormons like an ex-Mormon, except maybe those whose parents were and set a horrible example.

    but you already had decided my intent was less important than defending your church

    You made all kinds of dark comments about “I wouldn’t go into some church with Satan symbols on it. Just sayin” and about battling powers and principalities and how maybe JUST MAYBE the all-seeing eye on the 10 commandments monument was put there by the Powers That Be to mean SATAN right under the noses of the gullible Christians who thought they were signifying something else.

    If your intent was NOT to insinuate that Mormons were — at best, duped into putting the Mark of the Beast all over their temples, and at worst, did it on purpose, you did a piss-poor job of it.

    Furthermore, your comments about signification — quite apart from what you insinuated about the LDS — were completely orthogonal to what this blog is ALL ABOUT, and you’re surprised it caused a frenzy?

    That’s like going to a Firefly forum and arguing that Fox was right to cancel it.

    Difference of opinion, my eye. You poured vinegar into a box of baking soda. What did you expect?

  301. I didn’t win. You lost.

  302. Today while I was watching C-SPAN, I noticed a preponderance of stars in the House chamber. The six pointed kind.

    You all know what that means.

  303. Furthermore, your comments about signification — quite apart from what you insinuated about the LDS — were completely orthogonal to what this blog is ALL ABOUT, and you’re surprised it caused a frenzy?

    That’s like going to a Firefly forum and arguing that Fox was right to cancel it.

    Yeah right. That’s what you are butt hurt over.

    You haven’t addressed one of my arguments dealing with that, like calling the dollar symbol a (English) pound symbol and being able to call them the same. You are just mad because you think I dissed your church.

    A six pointed star is usually taken as a star of David, which is why you won’t see many on a Mosque.

    Now I will just stipulate; I lost. I’m wrong about it all. Those I have driven into a frothy frenzy are right, always have been right, always will be right, and anyone with a differing point of view from all that rightness should be driven from the rightous, amen.

    Bye

  304. Good grief. You argue like a girl.

  305. OK, LBascom: have ya the last word. I’m done responding.

  306. I think if LBascom is making arguments relative to symbolism, he should first look into what things symbolized at the time when said symbols were, literally, cast in stone.

    Because if he’s not arguing some occultism on the part of either Mormons or those who built the temple in question, I am absolutely fucked if I can understand just what point he’s trying to make, or even if there is some point that he’s making.

    It may be too late for him to unpack what ought to have been unpacked a couple of hundred comments ago, given his current wounded-ness. But I am all ears.

    See, that’s just about as neutral of a comment as you could expect. Maybe it will be taken in that spirit.

  307. Yackums says January 14, 2014 at 7:00 am

    Mondamay,

    You mentioned “Almost Live” earlier. I remember that show too. You from Seattle area too? (Go Hawks!)

    No. I saw the show on Comedy Central around ’93 or ’94. I think it is one of the best sketch comedy shows I’ve seen. I’m not sure why it never got a wider audience.

    I’ve never even been to Washington, let alone lived there, but of the remaining NFL teams, I’d rather see the Seahawks win (for reasons probably too involved and petty to be of much worth in this forum).

  308. Alright Slartibartfast, if you are really interested in the free exchange of ideas and not just in convincing me how wrong and stupid I am, I’ll try to refocus and attemp it again.

    Just not right now. Right now I have to go spend the day drilling 5 ‘ diameter holes in a road with a 90 lb jackhammer. It will have to wait for this evening.

  309. That sounds like the easier of the two things, Lee.

    I’ll come back and see what you’ve had to say. I appreciate you considering giving that a try.

  310. Damn, I’m getting too old for that shit. Here I am, a highly skilled operating engineer, able to finish with just about anything Caterpillar makes, reduced to riding a jackhammer like I did at 19. And grateful that for the first time in four years I made as much money doing it as I did in 1990.

    Oh well, such is the California economy with Obama leading the country.

    As for this mess, first I gotta say I have (a little) new found respect for Dog Vomit; it ain’t easy keeping your cool and staying focused in a hostile forum with multiple people coming at you from multiple directions. I’m not real good at communicating anyway, having a tendency to be easily lead on a tangent and losing my focus. I’ll try to do better.

    Back the top: I linked a story about a statue being erected in a public place by a Satanist group, proposed in response to a plaque of the 10 commandments being recently placed there.

    Almost as an aside to that story, was the fact that there were two spelling errors on the 10 commandments plaque (TWO!, literally chiseled in stone!), as well as a symbol (the all seeing eye) that I asserted (and still do BTW) is not commonly associated with Christianity. It is, in my experience, a symbol associated with Masonry.

    From there the discussion exploded into various concepts surrounding Satan vs. Lucifer vs. Baphemat vs. Belial, the site authors tag line (which I don’t endorse, I just noted it, and took a stab at what it might mean), and a whole load of misunderstandings, accusations, belittling, confusion.

    Now I admit I made some tactical errors, like getting flustered and connecting the all seeing eye to Satanists instead of Masons like I was originally thinking, and moving from my antidotal position of never seeing that symbol on a Christian church (and asking for an example of it) to asserting it never had been.

    In my defense, the only example I got was a wiki cite for a the church in 18th century Europe using it to symbolize divine providence, and I’m a 2oth century American protestant that doesn’t really subscribe to divine providence. I’ve never seen it in any of the several different protestant churches I’ve attended. I admit freely this is purely antidotal.

    As for symbolism and intentionalism, I do not deny the latter, but will argue symbolism in comparison to language is at the same time more able to clarify and expand intent, as well as lend itself to confusing and making intent purposefully more difficult or complex.

    The golden arches of Mickey D’s is recognized by a highly educated Maderine speaking godless commie in China the same as a Spanish speaking illiterate Mexican national fieldworker in Kansas.

    An Army officer can pretty much read another’s entire career just by looking at the various symbols on his shoulders, sleeves, and chest.

    A gangbanger can paint a design on a fence that is at the same time meaningless to anyone not in a gang, a challenge to a rival, and an instruction to a brother.

    Anyway, I think the all seeing eye on the plaque in question was put there to announce that “this plaque is brought to you by your local Masonic lodge”.

    As for Freemasonry, being a secret society, all I can do is give my personal experience with them.

    At 20 years old, a mentor of mine extended an invitation to join. He explained the only restrictions are you have to be introduced by an existing member, and you have to believe in a higher power. Not any particular god, but a higher power. Before I made a decision, the dude died. At his funeral, after his Episcopalian priest had his say at the graveside, as the people were filing away, a couple of fellows from the lodge showed up in black robes, masks and staffs festooned with strange symbols, moved forward and did a strange dance around the grave like a pagan ritual. Made the hairs on my neck stand up, it did. Thinking about it later, it occurs to me a Satanist can be a mason as well as a Catholic, a Muslim, or a Hindu. It also occurs to me while I’m sure there are many Masons that consider themselves Christian, Christians are taught the only way to the father is through Jesus, and I wonder how they reconcile that with their brotherhood in the Masons.

    I don’t know, but I do know I don’t want to put myself in that dilemma, so like I said, I wouldn’t go to a church displaying that symbol any more than I would one displaying a pentagram, IE, one of those upside down five pointed stars in a circle.

    You may think differently, many do. Some religious people think homosexuality is not a sin too, but I do. Mock me if you must…

  311. As for symbolism and intentionalism, I do not deny the latter, but will argue symbolism in comparison to language is at the same time more able to clarify and expand intent, as well as lend itself to confusing and making intent purposefully more difficult or complex.

    That’s difficult business enough right there.

    It looks like the two aims are at direct loggerheads, on the one hand clarifying and on the other making confused, more difficult, more complex.

    But language theory, I’d thought, had been reduced to a kind of unity with symbol anyhow, since, I don’t know, about roughly a hundred years ago or so. Symbol, too, on its own hook, seems to have taken over mathematics 4.5 to 5 or so centuries earlier; much to the good, so far as the success of abstraction at universalization goes.

    But as Plato notes in the Phaedrus, some 17 hundred years prior to that, language as written symbol stuff — as contrasted with language in the mouth and ears of living men — can’t talk back, can’t explain itself when questioned, and so always seems to run a sort of ‘second best’ so far as intelligibility goes. It can get to be very dark and not so illuminating, at least without a great deal of help from the living, if even decent interpreters happen to be alive to the writings and capable of helping it out.

  312. as well as a symbol (the all seeing eye) that I asserted (and still do BTW) is not commonly associated with Christianity. It is, in my experience, a symbol associated with Masonry.

    I won’t waste time bringing the links back up, given that you clearly ignored them the first time. But they are still there, if you can scrape together the intellectual honesty to see exactly how you are wrong in this belief.

    That having been said, no one can force you to admit the truth, but you, in turn, cannot keep insisting that only your beliefs are true, when they have already been shown to be entirely false.

    There is a reason that the All-Seeing Eye was used by the Masons (they were trying to display that the Great Architect is watching all that they do), but that does not erase the entire history of the symbol and its usage up until the Masons first started using it, some time after the US was founded.

    You cannot point to how a symbol is being used today and insist that it has never been used in any other way, and that all of the times you see it must be seen through that distorted filter, when the facts are clearly and demonstrably otherwise.

    I won’t bother trying to express all the ways that your misapprehensions about Masons are similarly wrong, because there is no way you can teach those that refuse to learn.

    But by all means, please tell us again how your personal experience is TRUTH and that the rest of us are wrong, because you’ve never seen anything to the contrary.

  313. Anyway, I think the all seeing eye on the plaque in question was put there to announce that “this plaque is brought to you by your local Masonic lodge”.

    If you’d said that originally, and if that was all you’d said, I think the potential for verbally expressed upset might have been decreased.

    It’s a plausible idea, but its veracity cannot be known, says I.

    Thanks for coming back to explicate, Lee. I don’t think I agree with you on this, but I don’t disagree enough to spend some energy arguing more.

    BTW I hope you took some anticipatory NSAIDs and liberally applied the Tiger Balm/Aspercreme/whatevs. That kind of work has a way of making itself felt for days after.

  314. “It looks like the two aims are at direct loggerheads, on the one hand clarifying and on the other making confused, more difficult, more complex”

    I wouldn’t say that is their aims, it’s just the nature of the beast (if I may kid). On one hand you can come up with simple symbols for the bathroom doors so any one speaking any language doesn’t get confused, on the other a group can come up with a set of symbols so they can order certain actions right out in the open and no one else will know what they mean. And yes, it doesn’t escape me symbols are what actually constitute written language.

    “if that was all you’d said, I think the potential for verbally expressed upset might have been decreased.”

    Undoubtedly. I’ve learned from this. Mostly that despite my own illusions, I have no more capitol around here than hellomynameissteve. What a colossal waste of time.

  315. Did you check out the etymological origin of the term in the link above, Lee? The idea was (in practice) to create a token which couldn’t be falsified, like two halves of an irregularly torn dollar bill, say, which have to be brought back together to make a whole, matching perfectly in order to sign a bona fide.

  316. You are speaking of Memorandum From the Devil? No, I haven’t had time. I will now though.

    But first, I missed this. I tell dicentra my mother is a Mormon, and she says: “Your mother may have been bat-spittle crazy or cruel or sinful, thus poisoning your view of the LDS”

    Way to interpret oh wizard of intentionalism! Unless you mean to convey a Mormon lady is as apt to be bat-spittle crazy or cruel or sinful as not. In which case, where the hell do you go to church. Every, and I mean every Mormon lady I ever met has been unfailingly sweet, humble and loving.

    You aren’t doing a bad job poisoning my view though. Of course I don’t enjoy being talked down to by someone acting like there’s nothing left under the sun she don’t know, so maybe it’s just me.

  317. You are speaking of Memorandum From the Devil?

    No, sorry, my bad: I meant the link to “to sumbolon”.

  318. That is not the entirety of dicentra’s comment, Lee. It is but a piece of a long exchange of comments between you and she.

    Be honest about the subject matter. We all know that dicentra has very strong feelings about her faith and she was offended by your portrayal of the Temple Square as evil. Intentional or not, that was the conclusion drawn and not just by her.

  319. You know leigh, being shut of you is reason enough to give up on PW comment sections. I’ve tried ignoring your ingratiating ass, I’ve asked nicely for you to stop addressing me, but I can’t fart without you chiming in to tell me whats what.

    It’s very telling all the uproar over my personal beliefs about certain symbols, but the only one even mildly critical of Drumwasters coming right out and calling me names and telling me to fuck off and good riddance is happyfeet, the person I’ve probably argued with the most around here. And I don’t think I ever called happyfeet a lying piece of shit, and I know he’s never called me one. I did once tell dicentra once she shouldn’t out happyfeets real identity because she was mad at him.

    In short, I will say again, one big reason the left is winning in this country is because of the loyalty they have to each other, while our side turns on you like a pack of rabid dogs if anyone is perceived to be saying something unhelpful.

    I say a pox on both your houses. I’ll just sit over here quietly and mind my own business.

  320. Lee, you remind me of the proverbial low-EQ (that’s what they call social IQ, isn’t it?) cubicle rat in sensitivity training hell because you incorrectly assessed a female co-worker’s comfort level and joked “you’re kind of slutty. I like that.” in the break room. And when she took offense, you followed up with, “I didn’t call you a slut. Why are you getting bitchy with me?” And now that your job is on the line, you want to argue with HR over the finer points of the distinction between “sluts” and “bitches.” And after they fire you, you’ll blame it on the “man-haters.”

  321. It isn’t that you were saying “unhelpful” things, but that you were saying UNTRUTHFUL things, and then doubling down on your ignorance even after you have been shown to be in error. Repeating things that you already know to be false is not merely asking questions, it is LYING.

    It was the deliberately insulting things that you were saying, and then claiming “Hey, I’m JUST ASKING QUESTIONS/That’s just that guy’s website, because I couldn’t find any other examples of what I am asserting as fact” (in short, denying that you are responsible for saying what you were saying) is what makes you a piece of shit, in my eyes.

    And if happyfeet is the only one you have on your side, isn’t that enough of a clue that you might actually be in the wrong?

    Leave, don’t leave, what difference does it make? Your choice, your consequences. But to stick around and refuse to admit reality on a site which is almost entirely about language and symbols, and how they are used? Don’t be surprised when you get called out over your lies.

    Everyone makes errors. Sometimes those will get pointed out. Grown-ups accept the correction, learn from it and move on. You should give that a try.

  322. Wow, there sure are a lot of Christians in the entertainment industry. It’s like they ALL pay homage to Jesus with the eye thing. Inverted crosses, pentagrams, horns and whatnot excepted. You should see them all!

    I also happened to find the authors explanation of the tag line in the 6/13 batch of pictures:

    The saying “Symbols rule the world not words nor laws” means that you shouldn’t listen to what “officials” or the media says about power and governance. Just look at the symbolism and imagery that’s around you – it silently tells the truth.

    So, I admit to being socially retarded and wrong about that as well as everything else.

  323. I hate to be the one to break it to you, Lee, but you don’t get to tell me what to do. Save that for Mrs. Bascom.

  324. I didn’t tell you, I asked you. I even said please.

    But then you have never been real accurate reporting what I’ve said.

    I think this is the part where you summon your catholic upbringing and call me a dick. Again.

  325. Any chance you good folks would just step away from the keyboards for a while and do other things? Relax and not get so worked up about the discussion at hand?

    There are few enough regular commenters here to lose any in anger or disgust.

  326. I think this will be a good season for hair shirts and curses.

  327. “Leave, don’t leave, what difference does it make? Your choice, your consequences. “

    Since you ask, my consequences? People won’t be calling me names, I’ll have more time to do more productive things that I probably should be doing anyway, and I’ll have more money in my pocket.

    SOLD!

  328. I’ve only referred to you as a dick once when I was talking to Blitz about how frustrating it was to try to talk to you about anything; anything at all. The weather, even. You have told me to “never address me again” once and then went on to say some Judge Dread-like crap about me another time.

    Catholic is capitalized when referring to the church. It is lower case when referring to catholic as a synonym for universal.

  329. Catholic is capitalized when referring to the church

    Churches, to be pedantic.

  330. And both ways, capitalized or not, mean universal.

  331. Sorry, geoffb. I didn’t mean to omit the Orthodox and you are correct that both mean universal.

    Merry Christmas to you and the missus. Better late than never.

  332. Thank you.

  333. Is bearing false witness one of the big ten in the Catholic church?

    Maybe display the Eye of Horus and claim divine providence in confession while claiming the devil (that would be me, being so darn frustrating) made you do it. It might help.

  334. This meltdown has developed surprisingly like the homophobia “issue” so far. Not begging someone to stay, who claims to not want to stay, is somehow the same as kicking them out. Well, SOMEBODY has to bear the guilt that someone wants to leave, right?

    Tolerance? Tolerance is hate and the new KKK.

    Cheerleading and conspicuous side taking is the only acceptable response.

    The only question I suppose is who is being Gideonish and who is being Baal-y and who if anyone is getting pulled down, or not.I supposed arguing whether anyone was sent by God is going to get a bit tendentious barring a convenient tie-breaking revelation.

    The world certainly looks very different with a bucket of Kentucky Fried Drama in the belly.

  335. the sound screaming teenage grrl

  336. Graven images. We’re big on the graven images. Statues and icons are us.

  337. Just look at the symbolism and imagery that’s around you – it silently tells the truth. – See more at: http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=52421#comment-1051153

    Such as the “truth” that those images have NEVER NOT ONCE been used for religious purposes, or perhaps the “truth” that the little pieces of paper actually rule the world because of … well, you never did explain that bit, so we’ll just assume it’s the color green. (Except that the ink actually changes color these days.)

    Ignore also what the actual intent of the person or group who puts the symbol on display in the first place might be, because what do THEY know, amIrite? It’s all about YOU.

    If you’re going to go, quit acting like a 4yo girl who has just been told that her tea party gusts are actually only stuffed animals and go. Or stay, and try and learn something, rather than insisting that only you have the “truth”. Either way, it’s “fish or cut bait” time…

  338. i ordered some diet blenheim ginger ale

    the diet was the only kind you could get with prime – for the others the shipping is super-expensive

    i had it shipped to the office so my team can try then i’ll bring it home for to make cocktails

    i think it’s a good thing, on balance, that diet was the only kind available cause of I am back on the program anyway, so it’s nice that I won’t be adding extra calories

    plus i never tried the diet before i didn’t even know they made diet

    anyway when I gets my tasty ginger ales I’m a make some cocktails and I will toast Mr. B Moe is what I will do

    I have a game plan you see and it is robust and fault tolerant

  339. the rule of ginger

  340. Cocktails will make you fat, happy. Especially if taken with tasty snacks.

  341. snacks are not on the agenda lately except for protein bars

    sometimes in the evening I’ll set out a plate of kippers and chopped celery for to enjoy with that rosemary crispbread

    on the celery i splash a lil balsamic and toss in some minced basil, then mix it in with the kippers

    this is a very high-protein and low carb snack

    another thing i do sometimes is I take a veggie burger patty and top it with this turkey bolognese sauce from trader joe’s, which is healthy and substantive – you do the whole thing in the microwave

    otherwise i just make eggses

    it gets dreary but nothing tastes as good as skinny feels

  342. ECHO CHAMBER!!!!!1!!!!!!!

  343. Tuna fish and cannellini beans tossed with vinaigrette make a tasty salad. You can add roasted peppers and cracked pepper, too.

  344. “otherwise i just make eggses”

    Wow, you have a cloaca?

  345. I ate shitty cheap salmon for dinner by the way. Which I suspect was dyed haddock. Tomorrow is mightily braised shoulder roast. Thanks Obama.

  346. i’ll get some cannellini beans next time I go do shoppings, which will be at the jewish mart

    Gelson’s is retarded expensive and they did that cheesy bullshit on me where they make you buy paper bags if you don’t bring reusable ones, so i just go there for cake now

    Fresh & Easy moved everything around and now it’s retarded too – that place was always a pain in the ass and now it’s just a waste of time

    so mostly this year I’m going to ethnic markets and Vallarta and Smart n Final

    the jewish place has the stuffed bbq chicken breasts I been hungry for plus I can get some taramasalata – which I like plus my friend F likes it too

    they also have this frozen pizza I’m a take up to the office

    you get like 8 slices in a box and it’s made in manhattan and you can sprinkle a lil arugula on top and it’s perfect for the toaster oven

  347. the armenian jewish mart has pre-seasoned salmon steaks I really like – that’s different than the other jewish mart

    I usually go there on Sundays if I go

    that’s the place where they have the tasty hungarian plum brandy

  348. >I’ll get some cannellini beans next time I go do shoppings, <

    the giant eagle says nay to cannelli here. oh bitter clingers

  349. So how much longer do we have until Tom Sawyer goes from being an anachronistic caricature to a demon to be banished and/or bound?

  350. Tom Sawyer is a modern day warrior with a mean, mean stride…

  351. Make sure you drain and rinse the cannellini beans. The canned beans always have that gloopy water in them that ruins your tasty salad.

  352. ok i will for sure

    and for the vinaigrette is balsamic ok?

  353. If you like it. I don’t care for it and think it’s overrated. But, that just me.

  354. The balsams were a degenerate people. Oh wait, it’s a scented plant oil? Never mind ye then, (zut) alors!

  355. They call them cannelini because of the explosive nature of the ensuing flatulence.

    Oh. Too late?

    Apropos of nothing: master-class Amazon review.

Leave a Reply