December 18, 2012

After debating with progressives for days now, I think I’ve got this gun control thing figured out

Essentially, the progressive argument — which tends to veer toward the predictable (we need to ban “assault weapons,” whatever those are; the Framers never anticipated high-powered weaponry; nobody “needs” a 30 round magazine; the Second Amendment gives power to the government to set up a militia; we need to close the gun show loophole, whatever that is! etc) — comes down to this:  “We’ll tell you what it is you need, we’ll tell you how much of it you need, and we’ll know that when we see it.  For the children.”

That’s a lot of power they wish to grant themselves over an erstwhile free people. So they’ll just have to forgive me if I decline to hand it over easily.

 

Posted by Jeff G. @ 9:07am
303 comments | Trackback

Comments (303)

  1. If guns are only for militia members, then by gum we’ll all be in a militia.

    Watch their heads explode THEN.

  2. I don’t bother arguing with progs anymore. It would make more sense- and be a more productive use of time- to repeatedly slam my head into a wall.
    They can argue all they want to abolish guns. They can ignore facts, reality, and intelligent discussion all they want, and replace all of them with the emotional rants , shrieks and soundbites of children. But the bottom line will always come to this.
    You will actually,’physically, need to come and take them.
    Good luck with that.

  3. technically, di, I think everyone already IS in a militia (at least under Federal definitions). Every “free able-bodied white male citizen” between 18 and 45, dating back as far as 1792, with subsequent amendments (in 1862, to allow blacks to serve, and 1903, which created the reserve militia or unorganized militia, which presently consist of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who are not members of the National Guard or Naval Militia). Add in the legal claims since then, and that would get rid of the gender and age limitations (since I know lots of guys older than 45 who can still shoot).

    That kinds of defeats the whole “militia is a government entity” argument, but only to those who are at all interested in facts and logic.

    Molon Labe!

  4. Don’t ever let them try to corner you with a hunting argument, or what you “need.” The guns I used to have before the boating accident were there to be used in the defense of my right to life, liberty, and property, which is a G-d given right. The Constitution merely recognizes its existence; it does not define it.

    The fact that I could have also used them to target shoot, which I find to be an enjoyable past-time, is an additional marker, but not the primary reason for them having been in my possession.

  5. Add in the legal claims since then, and that would get rid of the gender and age limitations (since I know lots of guys older than 45 who can still shoot).

    Over 45 and an still shoot? Golly. Don’t their walkers get in the way?

  6. Yeah, I usually reply to the “need” argument with “people driving cars kill more than twice as many people every year than do people wielding weapons, and no one NEEDS a car, so how soon do we ban automobiles?” or perhaps “no one NEEDS to travel more than 25 miles per hour, and what’s up with wanting all that gasoline? Two gallon gas tank, MAX.”

  7. LBascom, just mount them on the walkers.

    “Like a man once said, there are no problems, only solutions.”

  8. Drumwaster is quite correct. Many states also have this provision written into their Constitutions and/or statutes, as well.

    Example: Massachusetts General Law Chapter 33, ss. 2, 3, read, in full:

    Section 2. The militia of the commonwealth shall consist of all able-bodied male citizens and all other able-bodied males who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, between the ages of seventeen and forty-five, and who are residents of the commonwealth, and of such other persons, male and female, as may, upon their own application, be enlisted or commissioned therein pursuant to any provision of this chapter, subject, however, to such exemptions as are now, or may be hereafter, created by law.

    Section 3. The militia shall consist of two classes, namely, the organized militia, composed and organized as provided in this chapter, and the remainder, to be known as the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia shall not be subject to duty except in case of war, actual or threatened, invasion, the prevention of invasion, the suppression of riots, and the assisting of civil officers in the execution of the laws.

    http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleV/Chapter33

  9. “the Framers never anticipated high-powered weaponry” … with rifled barrelled long rifles shots of 500 yards where not uncommon during the Revolutionary War … I think the Framers had a pretty good idea about high powered weapons …

  10. “the Framers never anticipated high-powered weaponry”

    to repeat something I mentioned in another thread: “The Second Amendment means only flintlocks and muzzle loaders in exactly the same way that the First Amendment means only quill pens and hand-cranked printing presses.”

  11. Up until Heller, the relevant SCOTUS opinion was the 1939 decision in Miller, which held that Miller’s sawn-off shotgun was prohibited exactly because it was unlike a military weapon such as would be carried by the militia. In other words, the Second Amendment applies to armed citizens carrying military type weapons. You would think this was common knowledge amongst our betters.

  12. Over 45 and an still shoot? Golly. Don’t their walkers get in the way?

    Thanks, Lee. I wanted to say something, but I wasn’t feeling clever.

  13. I am busy explaining to people that armed with just the Glock and the Sig, you could put away more than 20 people. That I even have to point that out makes me uncomfortable with the notion that this topic is up for debate. It’s like debating people who haven’t bothered to research their topic at all.

    Or, he could have just had 10-round magazines! That would have saved some folks! Except changing mags is only reach, press, click, slide, fire. Even someone unpracticed in changing magazines could easily do so in the time it takes for people to stop running away from the awful guy with the gun and rush the awful guy with the gun.

    Scale it all the way back to 6-shooters, then. Those take a bit more concentration in the reloading. That’s what is next, I expect: then the perp would have to pack 4 or 5 pistols, and who wants to do that?

  14. Hey, I’m in the “over 45″ crowd, too, guys. I’ve got five grandkids I’ve taken to Vegas for their 21st birthday, and two of them are married…

    And I shoot. (Not as well as Da Missus, though.)

  15. The gun control folks are the same ones who think we are all incapable of regulating our soda intake or providing a decent meal to our kids. If they’re anything like the progressives in the UK, they’ll also go after knives and any other object that could possibly be used for self-defense. For our safety, of course.

  16. Oh. But he needed the Bushmaster to open up the door.

    Ok, then. That’s why high-capacity semiautomatic weapons should be banned: because they can open doors.

  17. so are crossbows regulated in the UK too? just curious.

  18. I am busy explaining to people that armed with just the Glock and the Sig, you could put away more than 20 people. That I even have to point that out makes me uncomfortable with the notion that this topic is up for debate. It’s like debating people who haven’t bothered to research their topic at all.

    Yup.

    Not only do they constantly confuse semi-auto with auto, but they don’t realize that their concession — of course I’m all for you being able to keep a pistol in your home for protection, it’s these “assault weapons that I’m against — allows for semi-automatic weapons, with most (or at the very least, a goodly number of) handguns these days being semi-automatics.

    I pointed out that my carry piece can hold 18 40 S&W rounds; My SCAR-17 holds 20 in the magazine. Both are semi-automatic.

    Here’s a fun one: ask these people if you should be allowed to own a “sniper rifle.”

  19. Oh. But he needed the Bushmaster to open up the door.

    Ok, then. That’s why high-capacity semiautomatic weapons should be banned: because they can open doors.

    Shooting .223 Remington. Whereas a “hunting rifle” chambered for 30 06? Wouldn’t have had a chance of opening a door.

  20. My fave is still when some lefty asks, “So I suppose you think the Second Amendment means that people should have cannons in their front yards, too?”

    To which the only logical response is, “Of course! The Constitution grants Congress the power ‘To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;’ which presupposes that civilians and private companies have artillery capable of capturing enemy ships and fortifications. Not to mention the fact that the Shot Heard ‘Round The World was fired by minutemen who were trying to keep the Crown from taking their artillery away.”

    Never, ever miss an opportunity to rub their noses in their own grinding ignorance. Especially when they pretend to be so much wiser and more knowledgeable than you.

  21. (Don’t keep your howitzer in the front yard, by the way. Put it in the garage. Way easier maintenance, and you don’t have to worry about the neighbor kid painting a penis on it.)

  22. I’m hoping for one of these:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vGobePvnTQ

  23. Except changing mags is only reach, press, click, slide, fire. Even someone unpracticed in changing magazines could easily do so in the time it takes for people to stop running away from the awful guy with the gun and rush the awful guy with the gun.

    You can also take “reach” out of the equation for very short money.

  24. Here’s a fun one: ask these people if you should be allowed to own a “sniper rifle.”

    Those hunters who are for “reasonable restrictions” on other people’s guns better remember that their scoped Remington 700s are “military sniper rifles.”

  25. Scale it all the way back to 6-shooters, then. Those take a bit more concentration in the reloading.

    Again, quick, easy and cheap. We’ll have to ban cargo pants and fanny packs.

  26. Oh, do fuck off, slippy. At least until such time as you can apologize for calling us all illiterates and then slinking away after we called you on your shit.

    Maybe if you had a sunshiny Pokemon avatar, we’d be more willing to put up with your ill-disguised dislike for us. As it is, we already have one of those, and one is more than enough.

  27. Happy Winter Festivals to you.

  28. Blow it out your ass, space cowboy.

  29. so are crossbows regulated in the UK too? just curious.

    Yes – no one under the age of 18 may own one. They are also illegal for hunting.

  30. Revolvers with speedloaders aren’t quite as fast, I think. Or maybe I just lack practice.

    My wife’s revolver is still new enough that one shell casing inevitably gets left behind when hitting the eject rod. Hopefully that will change with time & use.

  31. Yes – no one under the age of 18 may own one. They are also illegal for hunting.

    wtf? why can’t you hunt with them? in Australia you’re only allowed to own a gun for hunting but you’re not “allowed to use it for self defense”… what are the allowable purposes for a crossbow in the UK?

  32. Point is, anything other than break-open action can be reloaded quickly. So we’ll have to ban them all. FOR FREEDOM!!

  33. Essentially, the progressive argument … comes down to this: “We’ll tell you what it is you need, we’ll tell you how much of it you need, and we’ll know that when we see it. For the children.”

    You left out “for your own good” and “because we’re better than you, that’s why.”

    Ask slippy. He’ll tell you.

  34. yes I was told that “someone could break into your house and steal your gun and murder people with it, then you’ll realize what an idiot you are” – followed by “only soldiers should have guns”

    lolz. It’s almost like he didn’t know any history.

  35. Oops. Posted this in the wrong thread before. Here:

    Uh oh. Got a progressive going with the “militia” = “National Guard” argument. Blast that shit out of the water, gun nuts! I double dog dare you!

  36. Point is, anything other than break-open action can be reloaded quickly.

    Break-opens can be reloaded quickly as well.

    At least rifles. Harder to fit shotgun shells between the fingers of your supporting hand.

  37. I always tell people that thieves are welcome to my guns, provided they can carry the 300-lb safe that’s wrapped around them.

  38. You forgot “racists” and homophobes too, Squid.

  39. Those hunters who are for “reasonable restrictions” on other people’s guns better remember that their scoped Remington 700s are “military sniper rifles.”

    Exactly my point, Alex.

    I’ve been watching their heads pop all morning.

  40. Yet SW (and cheers), they haven’t got around to restricting and licensing cricket bats to date have they? India hopes it’s coming soon, surely.

  41. “So I suppose you think the Second Amendment means that people should have cannons in their front yards, too?”

    Of course. Certainly not unheard of in that day.

    Hell, as you suggested by quoting the part of the Constitution about issuing Letters of Marque and Reprisal, it was fairly common for private citizens to buy, outfit, and crew fully-armed warships. You think an AR-15 gets their panties in a knot? Try a 74 gun ship of the line.

    Interestingly, the United States has never signed the international treaty banning letters of marque.

  42. Yet SW (and cheers), they haven’t got around to restricting and licensing cricket bats to date have they?

    I recall that during the London riots, baseball bat sales skyrocketed on Amazon.uk.

  43. At least rifles. Harder to fit shotgun shells between the fingers of your supporting hand.

    I can’t remember the specifics, but I saw a YouTube video of speedloading a shotgun using some sort of stacking method.

  44. I remember that, too, Pablo. It’s amazing how many Brits took a sudden interest in Yank sports.

  45. wtf? why can’t you hunt with them? in Australia you’re only allowed to own a gun for hunting but you’re not “allowed to use it for self defense”… what are the allowable purposes for a crossbow in the UK?

    Why? There are a great many things about the UK law regarding firearms, knives and hunting that, quite frankly, are just asspulls by some unelected quango or other.

  46. Cool, this looks like a great thread to boast about finally scoring a Ruger Gunsite Scout.

    Everyone should have a bolt action rifle with a 10 round detachable magaine.

    Too bad the Ruger Gunsite Scout wasn’t around during WW1. The Ruger would have been a great assault rifle to use in the trenches.

  47. Yet SW (and cheers), they haven’t got around to restricting and licensing cricket bats to date have they?

    Many offensive weapons are defined by statute under the Criminal Justice Act of 1988. I think a cricket bat would only become one if being used in that manner.

    I recall that during the London riots, baseball bat sales skyrocketed on Amazon.uk.

    And not a great fondness for baseball to explain it. I understand the metal ones are the best tool for the job.

  48. *magazine.

  49. Here you go. From a liberal friend’s facebook thread:

    Worth noting that the ruling in Heller said “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited … the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” p54.

    That is, under current SCOTUS interpretation, it is legitimate and within the reach of constitutional authority to try and parse out acceptable limits on private ownership of arms. Specifically “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws impos­ing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms”. p54-55

    The court also acknowledged that advances in technology have rendered the prefatory clause (“a well regulated militia”, etc) anachronistic: “Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have lim­ited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.” p56. I.e., the prefatory clause does not convey the right to weapons of unlimited power and lethality. This undercuts the argument regarding “armed citizens carrying military style weapons”.

    All that said, while I believe current understanding of the constitution allows for limits on the kinds of firearms that can be legally owned, I personally believe that definitional arguing over what makes an “assault weapon” will most likely end in an incomplete mess, like the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Instead, the conversation must be that the right to bear (and sell) arms necessarily comes with responsibilities to ensure public safety. I don’t know what form that might take, but it seems more productive than debating definitions.

  50. “Over 45 and an still shoot? Golly. Don’t their walkers get in the way?”

    Are you kidding? It’s better than a bipod!

  51. I can’t remember the specifics, but I saw a YouTube video of speedloading a shotgun using some sort of stacking method.

    Tecloader.

  52. Ask slippy. He’ll tell you

    I’m in favor of gun ownership. You’ve asked. I’ve said so.

    Try a 74 gun ship of the line.

    I suppose you’d like a hand grenade in every pot?

    Although restrictions on full-auto are counter productive. If the shooters had full-auto, they’d miss more and run out of ammo sooner.

  53. “I suppose you’d like a hand grenade in every pot?”

    I was just addressing the “Second Amendment only applies to muskets” idiocy, Slappy.

    At the time of its adoption, private citizens owned fully-armed warships. That’s a fact.

  54. I should note my response, namely (summarized), that what is practically anachronistic need not be declared legally so. I’m not a proponent of a living Constitution. In fact, I find the idea linguistically incoherent. Doesn’t matter which “side” engages in such interpretive chicanery.

    Too, the assertion that “I.e., the prefatory clause does not convey the right to weapons of unlimited power and lethality. This undercuts the argument regarding “armed citizens carrying military style weapons”” seems quite a reach when the examples given are modern-day bombers and tanks. We already have restrictions on the rate of fire, which is what makes the military-style weapons into military weapons.

  55. At the time of its adoption, private citizens owned fully-armed warships. That’s a fact.

    Goody. So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

  56. Does your question change his fact?

  57. Goody. So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

    As long as it is not a dull wit, a dishonest intellect and bad faith, then bring what you’ve got, slipperyloobrush.

  58. ” I can’t remember the specifics, but I saw a YouTube video of speedloading a shotgun using some sort of stacking method. ”

    http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/speedloaders-accessories/cylinder-speedloaders/shotgun-speed-loader-prod18303.aspx

  59. “So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?”

    It’s not a question of my “feelings”. My feelings are irrelevant. So are yours.

  60. As long as it is not a dull wit, a dishonest intellect and bad faith, then bring what you’ve got, slipperyloobrush.

    lol, at least we will get along well after the zombie apocalypse SW!

  61. Goody. So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

    Well, it’s not the weapons themselves that are a problem, per se — it’s the whole “killing people who didn’t need killing” part.

    So let’s just make murder illegal and call it a day.

  62. If you want to pass a Constitutional amendment prohibiting the private ownership of, say, nuclear weapons, be my guest.

    Of course, private nukes haven’t really been a problem, and the likelihood of anyone for whom it would be a problem paying any attention whatsoever to such a law is minuscule, but go right ahead. Everyone needs a hobby.

  63. “Although restrictions on full-auto are counter productive. If the shooters had full-auto, they’d miss more and run out of ammo sooner.”

    ‘They?’ They’d keep your head down behind cover while their buddies rushed you from a different direction, maybe two, with pistols, shotguns, grenades(quite possibly improvised), carbines, smg’s, and or knives. That is known as assaulting a position. Mostly likely it would be the SAW/LMG and a few helpers with AR’s (now purchased mainly with burst-fire)would be the ones keeping you pinned. And they might even have a sniper to pick you off when you tried to break and run, or call in serious fire support from a a helicopter, armored vehicle, drone, AC-130, artillery battery, offshore ship, or mortar team (rapid fire grenade launchers, 50 caliber machine guns, gatling guns, rockets, 20mm chain guns, auto-cannons, hellfire missiles, a flame thrower if you are hiding behind an armored vehicle, etc.) to kill you where you crouch.

  64. Cool, this looks like a great thread to boast about finally scoring a Ruger Gunsite Scout.

    Everyone should have a bolt action rifle with a 10 round detachable magaine.

    You dirty bastard!

  65. ““So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?””

    Well we were forcing gun shops to sell them to straw buyers for some shady non-citizens that we knew would take them across the border with no attempt at tracking them whatsoever… got 200 + people killed and was blamed on Bush because Bush had approved and had stopped a vaguely similar program that DID attempt to track them that shut down because the attempts failed, then when THAT started to stink it got hushed up under Executive Privilege so that the president was defending his office from Congressional document subpoenas for a program that he claimed he knew nothing about and that his office was never doing and that holder supposedly heroically put a stop to, once it blew up the wrong way, but somehow was supposed by the press to have created itself ex nihilo possibly due to evil spirits left behind by Bush or something.

  66. should note my response, namely (summarized), that what is practically anachronistic need not be declared legally so. I’m not a proponent of a living Constitution. In fact, I find the idea linguistically incoherent. Doesn’t matter which “side” engages in such interpretive chicanery.

    I like to reply with the analogy that the Constitution is indeed dead, but the American people are ever living. Therefore, they can amend the text as they see fit consistent with its requisites if faithful application of the document yields undesirable results.

  67. Does your question change his fact?

    Nope. Now can you answer the question?

    Should citizens be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

  68. heh, the trolling anonymous timewaster has a hobby — it just happens to be the same as his profession: timewasting.

  69. I’m in favor of gun ownership. You’ve asked. I’ve said so.

    You’re in favor of gun ownership for yourself and people like you.
    You were very clear about distrusting anyone not like you with the same rights.

    And here as well.

    Oikophobe.

  70. Should citizens’ ownership of weapons be limited such that they are completely unable to resist the excesses of a tyrannical government?

  71. well. if the government rolls into town with tanks, we the people are going to need firearms at the very least.
    we don’t need nukes for that sort of thing. However, what do people do when their government releases biological weapons on them (Iraq anyone?)

  72. Should citizens be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

    Yes. A man owning a main battle tank does not affect my rights in the least. My life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are completely unaffected by which toys another man has in his garage.

    If the State or the County who maintain the roads feel that this tank would cause undue wear and tear to them, they should prohibit its use on those roads, or calculate those costs and recover them through appropriate fees. If those same authorities feel the giant vehicle is a hazard to safe driving for others, they should similarly prohibit its use on public thoroughfares. These are legitimate public concerns well within the limits of these bodies’ authority.

    As to the main gun, so long as the owner isn’t blowing up my stuff, or storing his ammo in a fashion likely to cause damage to my stuff, then I really couldn’t give a pair of fetid dingo’s kidneys what he does.

    I recognize limits to the Second Amendment only so far as they conform to limits on the First. Hurt feelings, discomfort, strong disagreement, and offense are not good reasons to limit either.

  73. The only tyrannize you for your own good, you know.

  74. Now, slippy, will you tell us the reasons why you believe our Second Amendment rights should be limited? You’re very fond of asking questions and demanding answers, but I’ve noticed that you seldom measure up when the tables are turned.

    By the way, I must have missed your apologies for the baseless insults you’ve leveled at us. Kindly point me to your retractions.

  75. “The only tyrannize you for your own good, you know.”

    Sure, just ask the Khmer Rouge. Or their less successful Shining Path brothers. Or the Taliban. The real ones with all the sweet ‘Three Cups of Tea’ cred, not those bastard Baptist ones in the US.

  76. What’s an M1A MBT cost these days?

  77. If someone wants to waive their right to self defense, for whatever reason, that is their prerogative. When someone wants to remove any choice I might have to waive or exercise my right to self defense because they will feel better, then we have a problem. Of course, hurt feelings motivates the attacks on the First Amendment as well.

    There’s a small free rider problem, but I can carry that weight.

  78. What’s 500 gallons of JP8 run these days?

  79. Should citizens’ ownership of weapons be limited such that they are completely unable to resist the excesses of a tyrannical government?

    Bueller?

  80. Verbatim headline: President Obama to push assault weapons ban in second term.

    Ain’t no cure for willful lying, is there?

  81. I was told that “someone could break into your house and steal your gun and murder people with it, then you’ll realize what an idiot you are” – followed by “only soldiers should have guns”

    lolz. It’s almost like he didn’t know any history.

    The proper retort to the latter is “only slaves shouldn’t have guns,” missfixit.

  82. Given his lavish wealth, I’m guessing slipperybuttplug fancies buying a Klingon Bird of Prey, just to make the other guys on Millionaire’s Row jealous.

  83. lol, at least we will get along well after the zombie apocalypse SW!

    Judging by slipperywotsit, the drooling brain dead are stalking the land. Best pack a bag, missfixit.

  84. but I can’t bring my guns! oh well. I’ll wittle myself a bow and arrow when I arrive.

  85. Ladies, any recommendations for little old lady handguns, emphasis on little?

  86. Wouldn’t it be great to sneak Eric Idle into the next press conference to yell out, “What if he’s got a pointed stick?” Of course, I doubt Eric Idle is much of a Second Amendment man himself.

  87. You’re in favor of gun ownership for yourself and people like you.
    You were very clear about distrusting anyone not like you with the same rights.
    And here as well.

    I’m in favor of gun ownership. I think having them in schools is a bad idea, but let’s try it and see..

    I know, nuance. So hard for you one dimensional types.

    Now, slippy, will you tell us the reasons why you believe our Second Amendment rights should be limited? You’re very fond of asking questions and demanding answers, but I’ve noticed that you seldom measure up when the tables are turned.

    Because I disagree with the notion that the world would be a better place if 18 year olds could buy hand grenades.

    Given his lavish wealth, I’m guessing slipperybuttplug fancies buying a Klingon Bird of Prey, just to make the other guys on Millionaire’s Row jealous.

    Actually, I just felt blessed to be able to pay cash for my Prius.

  88. me and my dad are going gun shopping on Friday, he said he heard about this paper thin (ok exaggeration) handgun for concealed carry. I can’t even remember the name of it but I was trying to google it. Maybe Leigh knows. Apparently it’s thin enough to wear I could fit it in my waistband or ankle holster comfortably.

  89. this one is for slippey

    Shut up, you ape..! My shoe and my urine are more dignified than you… We will crush you like cockroaches!

    link

  90. Back from setting up to receive my new assault rifle. Whoo hoo!!

    And thanks, Ernst. Nice to know you care. Bring a tear to my eye, it does.

  91. “Here’s a fun one: ask these people if you should be allowed to own a “sniper rifle.”

    Then show them a picture of a .50 BMG ‘style’ anti-material rifle or even an AT-rifle from WW2.

    Then a .22 LR with a cheap scope on it and an improvised silencer.

    Then a White Guard M/28-30 with a rag tied around the muzzle and simple iron-sights.

    Ask which ones the Russian Federation worried about most in the early 2000’s and why. Ask them which one was used by the most feared sniper of history. Ask them which shoots the biggest bullet.

    It should be fun.

  92. I’m not sure I can fit a CVN in an inside the waistband holster…

    Outlandish examples aside, small arms in the hands of infantry are still what determine the outcome of any conflict. If that wasn’t true, our entire military would consist of a few squids to run the boats and a handful or airedales to fly the planes.

  93. palaeomerus, hard to believe that Finish sniper survived taking round to the jaw like that.

  94. *Finnish

  95. … and an RPG would really add a lot more “bang” to that whole gang banger thing.

  96. me and my dad are going gun shopping on Friday, he said he heard about this paper thin (ok exaggeration) handgun for concealed carry. I can’t even remember the name of it but I was trying to google it.

    M&P Shield?

  97. “missfixit says December 18, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    me and my dad are going gun shopping on Friday, he said he heard about this paper thin (ok exaggeration) handgun for concealed carry. I can’t even remember the name of it but I was trying to google it. Maybe Leigh knows. Apparently it’s thin enough to wear I could fit it in my waistband or ankle holster comfortably.”

    Walther PPS Concealed Carry Handgun?

    Kahr PM45 Black w/ Night Sights ?

    Kel Tec PF9 ?

    ASP 2000 9mm ?

    Karr makesa thin 9mm.

  98. I wonder what hand grenades and RPGs would cost on the open market.

    I also wonder if your average gang banger could pass the background check.

  99. I’m in favor of gun ownership. I think having them in schools is a bad idea, but let’s try it and see..

    I know, nuance. So hard for you one dimensional types.

    You think it’s a bad idea because the “most people are fucking idiots.”

    You’re so subtle a thinker that you spend all your time arguing with yourself.

  100. I wonder what hand grenades and RPGs would cost on the open market.
    I also wonder if your average gang banger could pass the background check.

    I think the military pays $27 for an M61, so I would think they’d be less than $100 – and if you wanted a shitty one, probably a lot less.

    And, can a gang banger pass the background check to get a 9mm? ’cause that doesn’t seem to stop them.

  101. “Because I disagree with the notion that the world would be a better place if 18 year olds could buy hand grenades.”

    Making improvised grenades is easy, Slappy. It hasn’t been a real problem, though.

  102. By the way, ever figure out who your argument was with here?

  103. Making improvised grenades is easy, Slappy. It hasn’t been a real problem, though.

    And why do you think that is?

  104. “And, can a gang banger pass the background check to get a 9mm? ’cause that doesn’t seem to stop them.”

    Oh, really?

    So “gun control” laws don’t work? The dickens you say.

  105. Ruger LCP-9 is just about the most ridiculously tiny 9mm I have ever seen. Weighs just over half a pound, 0.82″ thick.

  106. Just over a full pound, I mean. 0.9″ thick. That first set of dimensions: different gun.

  107. “And why do you think that is?”

    It certainly isn’t because it’s against the law, dipshit.

    “Herpderp…. I was gonna blow up a bunch of people with grenades, but the grenades are illegal. Guess I’ll just watch TV instead.”

    Is that how it works in your mind?

  108. And cheers to you too, sdferr. I’m very surprised to see you’ve been following our first series victory in India in over a quarter century. That was so long ago I had hair.

  109. The LC-9 is a pound and just under an inch thick. The LCP is a .380 auto pistol that is about half that weight and a bit thinner. I got the two mixed.

  110. By the way, Slappy: you can buy ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel with no background check of any kind. You don’t even have to be 18.

  111. “I think having them in schools is a bad idea, but let’s try it and see..”

    Connecticut has a law on the books prohibiting guns in schools.

    How did that work out?

  112. —>”Oops. Posted this in the wrong thread before. Here:

    Uh oh. Got a progressive going with the “militia” = “National Guard” argument. Blast that shit out of the water, gun nuts! I double dog dare you!”<—

    Jeff I can answer that for ya!!

    A little background first:

    (U.S. v. Emerson, 46 F.Supp.2d 598 (N.D.Tex. 1999))
    "Collective rights theorists argue that addition of the subordinate clause qualifies the rest of the amendment by placing a limitation on the people's right to bear arms. However, if the amendment truly meant what collective rights advocates propose, then the text would read "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the States to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." However, that is not what the framers of the amendment drafted. The plain language of the amendment, without attenuate inferences therefrom, shows that the function of the subordinate clause was not to qualify the right, but instead to show why it must be protected. The right exists independent of the existence of the militia. If this right were not protected, the existence of the militia, and consequently the security of the state, would be jeopardized."

    Ok, so the 2nd amendment states the need for a militia, However, membership in any militia, let alone a "well-regulated" one, was not intended by the Founders as a prerequisite for exercising your right to keep arms under the 2nd Amendment.

    "The People" were considered freemen as individuals, not "militia members".

    Ok so about the National Guard…

    The National Guard is PART of the militia (there is the "organized" militia – which it is a part and the "unorganized militia" which we ALL are a part). When Congress created the National Guard it did so under its authority to "raise armies", not under its authority to "organize, arm and discipline" the militia (notice the latter there is no "create" because the unorganized militia is already created).

  113. Ladies, any recommendations for little old lady handguns, emphasis on little?

    A two-shot Derringer should do it, Pablo. They even look cute.

  114. ok it might be the LC-9 because we were talking about 9 mm. I told him that’s what i wanted. But I have to ask now because I can’t remember which one he was talking about.

  115. BTW Jeff. In The District of Columbia v. Heller, the SCOTUS held, in part, the following:

    —>The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm UNCONNECTED WITH SERVICE INA MILITIA, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home<—

    Hope this helps…

  116. I think we should all ignore slappy and his ignorant questions until he ‘fesses up about being dead-ass fucking wrong about AGW.

    And then we can ignore him again when he makes some other outlandish claims.

  117. By the way, Slappy: you can buy ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel with no background check of any kind. You don’t even have to be 18.

    So again, I ask, why is it that incidents involving grenades or RPGs are very rare in this US?

  118. I saw a Derringer that took a .410 shotgun shell (loaded with 000) a long time ago. No idea if they’re still on the market.

  119. yeah when I’m a little old lady I probably won’t even want a 9 mm. A little Derringer would be nice..

  120. “So again, I ask, why is it that incidents involving grenades or RPGs are very rare in this US?”

    What’s your take, Slappy?

  121. I’m not so old, missfixit, and it’s hard for me to handle a 9mm since my hands are very small. I wear a 4 1/2 ring, so you can do the math.

    Also a .357 kicks too hard for me with magnum loads. A .38 round I can handle and I love my .380. .22s feel like plinkers after using heavier guns for an hour or so.

  122. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

    Yes, bomb attacks are “very rare”, Slappy. Never happens.

  123. What’s your take, Slappy?

    Because the requirements to own one are so onerous that very few people bother. As a result, there’s very little supply. And the penalty for owning such things is relatively severe.

    It’s actually much easier to make your own improvised explosive than to try to buy and RPG. But even here, making an explosive that works isn’t trivial. The Columbine guys failed. And there’s a risk you’ll blow yourself up. And the penalty for even making or possessing a bomb is also relatively severe.

    So, if citizens were freely able to buy grenades and RPGs, and there were 500 million grenades floating around the US, it stands to reason they’d be used a lot more.

  124. ruh roh. I wear a 4 1/2 ring too. I told my dad I know I can’t handle a .45. He said 9 mm….because I also didn’t want a revolver…
    we shall see. We’ve been inspired to go shopping again this week.

  125. and Leigh! I wasn’t implying you were a little old lady (ha!) that was in reference to Pablo’s initial question ;)

  126. Because I disagree with the notion that the world would be a better place if 18 year olds could buy hand grenades.

    That has to be the flimsiest excuse I’ve ever seen given for squashing somebody’s civil rights. You’ve outdone yourself, slippy.

    By the by — could you link that apology? I’d really love to believe that you’re a decent guy arguing in good faith, but it’s terribly difficult for me to overcome my natural aversion to trollish behavior. Set me straight, buddy! Link that retraction/apology!

  127. “Because the requirements to own one are so onerous that very few people bother.”

    Yep. That sure stopped Obama’s buddy Bill Ayers.

    “So, if citizens were freely able to buy grenades and RPGs, and there were 500 million grenades floating around the US”

    Yes, everybody would run right out and buy a grenade if they were legal, I’m sure.

    You’re not even trying any more.

  128. Yes, bomb attacks are “very rare”, Slappy. Never happens.

    What’s the ratio of bombings to shootings? Think it has anything to do with the fact that you can’t buy C4 aw Walmart?

    Math!

  129. “it stands to reason they’d be used a lot more.”

    That would be the same “reason” that led you to equate schoolteachers with gangbangers in terms of gun deaths, right?

  130. “What’s the ratio of bombings to shootings?”

    In terms of death toll? The most deadly attacks in recent U.S. history were carried out with 1) box cutters 2) gasoline and 3) fertilizer.

    MATH!

  131. If you don’t mind a .38, Smith & Wesson makes what they call an Lady Smith .38, double action, recessed hammer, five shots that comes in at 14.5 ounces. I have something similar called an airweight. Small and light, kicks hard though. The barrel on the Lady Smith is a little under 2″, whereas I think the barrel on the airwieght is less than 1.5″. Just don’t plan on hitting anything more than 20 feet away.

  132. and Leigh! I wasn’t implying you were a little old lady (ha!) that was in reference to Pablo’s initial question ;)

    I know you weren”t. I was just ribbing you. ; )

  133. I have a degree in math. Math is a freind of mine. You sir, don’t know math.

  134. Uh yeah, because effective bombs can only be made with composition 4. CHEMISTRY!(TM)

  135. You might consider getting the laser sight for the LC9.

    Oh, holy crap. I just saw this on cheaperthandirt.com:

    “Cheaper Than Dirt does not sell firearms.”

    No shit.

  136. Because I disagree with the notion that the world would be a better place if 18 year olds could buy hand grenades.
    That has to be the flimsiest excuse I’ve ever seen given for squashing somebody’s civil rights. You’ve outdone yourself, slippy.

    Right, 18 year olds who can buy hand grenades is a flimsy reason not to let 18 year olds buy hand grenades.

    Yes, everybody would run right out and buy a grenade if they were legal, I’m sure.

    You’re right, no one would buy one, which is why it’s so important for everyone to have the right to buy one.

  137. “it stands to reason they’d be used a lot more.”
    That would be the same “reason” that led you to equate schoolteachers with gangbangers in terms of gun deaths, right?

    You’re right. If you could walk into Walmart and buy a box of hand grenades, they’d be used less.

  138. Hand grenades degrade if not properly stored.

  139. You all know the progressive left isn’t most fearful of arms, right? It’s what they don’t talk about that scares the bejeezus out of ‘em. Y’know, stuff like decent educations that enable people to see through their tyrannic ‘will to power’ ways. Look to what they don’t teach to find what they can’t abide. The eliminationists: “Hey hey, ho ho, Western Civ has got to go.”

  140. Uh oh. Got a progressive going with the “militia” = “National Guard” argument. Blast that shit out of the water, gun nuts! I double dog dare you!

    Please see District of Columbia v. Heller, viz.

    Held:

    1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

    I promise I didn’t make it up.

  141. “But even here, making an explosive that works isn’t trivial.”

    Bill Ayers hung out with people who pulled it off for a while. Actually with a lathe and some stock making a working effective gun approaches trivial. If you get into the fabulous finger-loss adorned word of zip-guns… it gets even more trivial.

  142. ” If you could walk into Walmart and buy a box of hand grenades,”

    You can buy fertilizer and diesel fuel there, Slappy.

  143. I’ll wager the people who shop at Wal-Mart are a lot more firearms savvy than your average city dweller.

  144. I actually own the Ruger version of that; it’s called the LCR. It shoots .38 and .38+P, has a 2-inch barrel, 5 in the cylinder, and weighs in at 13.5 oz.

    Trigger pull is way smoother than the Smith. I’ve shot both.

    Both kick rather a lot more than you’d expect from a .38, but I expect that if you load ‘em up with Glaser Safety Slugs, the kick won’t be as severe.

    If you want a lighter kick, go with a semiautomatic, or with a heavier gun. I know: contrary to the CCW notion.

    Man, I hate that Rupert Murdoch is making it necessary to say it out long like that.

  145. I believe all available stocks of hand grenades have been snatched up by wifebeater-clad rednecks looking to do some fishing.

  146. ” You’re right. If you could walk into Walmart and buy a box of hand grenades, they’d be used less.”

    Wow!… Just like birth control, AM-I-RIGHT?

    No wait, I forgot. Having birth control for sale cheap at Walmart constituted a ‘war on women’ via denying them access to birth control, while they going to law school at Georgetown, at age 30, and that like totally grants the democrats a lock on 2016 n’ shit.

  147. [C]an a gang banger pass the background check to get a 9mm? ’cause that doesn’t seem to stop them.

    [I]f citizens were freely able to buy grenades and RPGs, and there were 500 million grenades floating around the US, it stands to reason they’d be used a lot more.

    You mean like how more guns lead to more crime?

    For someone who claims to be in favor of gun ownership, you spend an inordinate amount of time arguing the case for restricting the rights of gun owners.

    I guess it’s gun use you’re against.

  148. “MATH!”

    Math based on bad assumptions and bad models has no use in real world problem solving. Like Science. Or logic.

  149. Cripes, Slart. Get up to speed, dude. Fishing is done at night by throwing an electrical charge on the fishies to stun them and then scoop them out with a net.

    It’s kind of like deer spotting when you can’t afford tags and beer.

  150. You can buy fertilizer and diesel fuel there, Slappy.

    And if someone notices you making a bomb with it, you can go to jail. That’s called a deterrent.

  151. Thanks, JerryS. I actually knew that, but I wanted to get you guys fired up.

    There are part of Heller I find dead wrong, but they at least got the individual right part correct. Until Obama stacks the bench. Then it will magically be found to mean the exact opposite of how it was intended.

  152. When did Cheaper than Dirt get out of the gun selling business? Friday?

  153. For someone who claims to be in favor of gun ownership, you spend an inordinate amount of time arguing the case for restricting the rights of gun owners.

    Yeah, I don’t think it’s a good idea to let 18 year olds buy hand grenades. What a prude I am.

    Math based on bad assumptions

    Because the assumption that if you could buy a box of grenades at Walmart we’d see more incidents involving grenades – that’s a bad assumption.

    We’d see less, obviously.

  154. palaeomerus —

    I’ve been telling them all day that Chechen snipers with Liter Coke bottles and .22LR cartridges the size of my fingernail were some of the deadliest urban combat snipers in history. And that my 8-year-old son shoots the same rifle, only without the makeshift silencer.

    The conversation usually goes quiet after that.

  155. Good news! Apparently, Obama has decided to let Joe Biden lead the push for more gun control!

    Well, that’s one threat to individual liberty that will be in the ditch spinning its wheels in five minutes.

  156. “Because the assumption that if you could buy a box of grenades at Walmart we’d see more incidents involving grenades – that’s a bad assumption.”

    Yes. Assumptions that feel good are right and ones you don’t like are wrong. And extremes ones are so useful too. That’s how math works.

  157. When I lived in Alaska I had underground storage for fertilizer and diesel fuel. Silly me, I wasted the latter on heating the house, while the former got pumped out when we sold the place because of state septic system regulations.

    On the bright side, I’m sure the new owners refilled it forthwith.

  158. I’m finding these slanders on the good people of Wal-Mart to be in bad taste.

  159. I just did a crossword puzzle that had “Blockhead” as the clue for a five-letter word. Unaccountably, “Biden” wasn’t right.

  160. “And if someone notices you making a bomb with it, you can go to jail. That’s called a deterrent.”

    Oh like making a youtube movie that pisses the president off! I see!

  161. I wonder what the minimum age for buying black powder is?

    No I don’t. Just kidding.

  162. “I just did a crossword puzzle that had “Blockhead” as the clue for a five-letter word. Unaccountably, “Biden” wasn’t right.”

    Did you try Obama ? How about Carny?

  163. Yeah, I don’t think it’s a good idea to let 18 year olds buy hand grenades. What a prude I am.

    Because the assumption that if you could buy a box of grenades at Walmart we’d see more incidents involving grenades – that’s a bad assumption.
    We’d see less, obviously.

    The supercilious air with which you wear sanctimony suits you

  164. Hoyer would work, too.

  165. I’m 40, can I buy grenades? What if I go to target instead of Walmart? Or this guy I know in Tijuana?

  166. I don’t really know anyone in Tijuana BTW. Never been there.

    I went to Boquillas del Carmen and Puebla in 1988 though, when the Peso was in the toilet like the dollar will be soon.

  167. “And if someone notices you making a bomb with it, you can go to jail. That’s called a deterrent.”
    Oh like making a youtube movie that pisses the president off! I see!

    Always his mind on a different conversation this one is. Never his mind on where we are at, what we are talking about.

  168. And I got to Puebla at the Laredo crossing. Boquillas was during a Big Bend Trip.

  169. “Because the assumption that if you could buy a box of grenades at Walmart we’d see more incidents involving grenades”

    You tried this same argument against arming teachers and got your ass handed to you.

    You’re an intellectual one-trick pony.

    Let’s try it on other things:

    If you could buy a car at the local car lot, obviously there are going to be more road rage incidents.

    If you let 18 year olds drive, obviously there are going to be more accidents.

    So your position is, what, we shouldn’t let people buy cars? Or just 18 year olds?

  170. Yoda got his ass whipped by a badly burned cackling old man.

  171. Luminous beings are we! Not this crude matter. Hmmmmmph! Math!

  172. Raising taxes and regulation doesn’t deter employment or the economy though.

  173. I’ve been telling them all day that Chechen snipers with Liter Coke bottles and .22LR cartridges the size of my fingernail were some of the deadliest urban combat snipers in history.

    .22LR is pretty freaking accurate out to 300m or so. Also: it kills out to that same distance.

    I have a Marlin XT-22 that I am going to get scoped and do some shooting from bench rest to see where it is, repeatability-wise. It’s pretty danged cheap to buy, and from what I’ve read it shoots accurately all day long. But the stock iron sights suck; the ones on the Ruger 10/22 are better. I am seriously considering getting some better sights before I try out the scope.

    Not really interested in suppressors at this point. Maybe not ever.

  174. We let 18 year olds fire automatic (or fully automatic if you are a dumb shit) greande launchers in the Army and marines. Or call in air strikes. Pretty cool! And some of them left MS-13 to join up and do a tour too!

  175. If you could buy a car at the local car lot, obviously there are going to be more road rage incidents.
    If you let 18 year olds drive, obviously there are going to be more accidents.
    So your position is, what, we shouldn’t let people buy cars? Or just 18 year olds?

    In your la, la, land, would 18 year olds have to carry grenade insurance to buy a grenade?

  176. Hand grenades might be an entertaining, if messy, way to approach the rabbit overpopulation problem in my back yard.

  177. Oh, holy crap. I just saw this on cheaperthandirt.com:

    “Cheaper Than Dirt does not sell firearms.”

    Holy shit.

  178. Slipshod seriously bores the fuck out of me.

  179. No more than an 18 year old “has” to buy car insurance to buy a car (you know, like the uninsured teen that smacked into a relative of mine earlier this year).

    You’re still stuck on stupid, Slappy.

  180. Suppressors are for hunting or range firing too, not just stealth firing from longer ranges. (or closer with .22 LR and even .22 WMR.

    They just make a lot of sense in terms of comfort for the shooter and people nearby unless you want a shorter weapon.

    And they don’t really totally silence the sound so much as muffle it to a reduced level that might not be heard distinctly past 100 yards or so.

    They even make sense in theory on shotguns though they are pretty bulky looking.

  181. Hand grenades might be an entertaining, if messy, way to approach the rabbit overpopulation problem in my back yard.

    I let my rabbit-hating dogs take care of that, Jim.

  182. Slipshod seriously bores the fuck out of me.

    Same here, cranky.

  183. If you have to shoot an intruder in your house with your 45, it helps to have a suppressor.

  184. There is no real reason for suppressors to be illegal, and every reason for them being legal. The reason they are illegal is that lawmakers are fucking idiots. That, and because of idiots who have been influenced by television and movies depicting guns that go pfft when a suppressor is attached, which is bullshit.

  185. “In your la, la, land, would 18 year olds have to carry grenade insurance to buy a grenade?”

    You’d need real actuarials to calculate an insurance rate. Slippy’s home made 1/493 gun accident factor probably wouldn’t really cut it.

    Just like holding a ’18 year old buying grenade at Walmart = bad’ assumption doesn’t really cut it as math, though it might cut it as MATH!(TM).

    Wouldn’t the deterrent of having laws against using grenades in public place or to kill someone DETER their use? Y’know, like it does with making ammonium nitrate fertilizer and diesel bombs? And using guns to kill or threaten people? And all other crimes?

    I mean, it’s a DETERRENT!

  186. In your la, la, land, would 18 year olds have to carry grenade insurance to buy a grenade?

    Not one more fucking answer to one more of your fucking stupid questions ’til we get a fucking apology for your fucking baseless insults, you fucking waste of skin and hair. Be a man. Or at least pretend to be one on the Internet.

  187. We mostly varmint hunt with suppressors – it’s rare to see varmint guns without. Quite a few deer rifles suppressed too. They can even make a .270 almost pleasant to shoot.

  188. Honestly I think at this point just ignoring him works.

    Or just replying to every fallacious argument with a link back to a previous comment where it’s already been answered.

  189. Law-abiding citizens can get suppressors, depending on if the state you live in allows you to have one. The process is just as onerous as the transfer of a fully automatic weapon to your possession, which is silly.

  190. I’m getting there myself, cranky-d, and I’ve only been back here a few days.

    He’s thor with an IQ about 40 points lower.

  191. I believe there are some European countries that actually REQUIRE the use of silencers while hunting. Noise pollution, you know.

  192. Jeff, you mentioned your .40 Cal carry piece above.. What kind did you finally decide on?

  193. Yes, it’s very easy even in the UK, Spies, just a minor alteration fee on the certificate.

  194. Pistol Grips, Supressors and barrel shrouds! Oh My!

    Will no one stop the inanity?

  195. “Actually with a lathe and some stock making a working effective gun approaches trivial. ”

    Well I might want a mig welder, a drill/vertical mill, a grinder, and a stock bender/cutter too.

  196. “I was going to kill a bunch of people and then off myself, but decided that since I couldn’t get a barrel shroud it just wasn’t worth the risk of burning my hand.” — psycho over in Slappy’s alternate universe.

  197. Went with the Beretta PX4 Storm subcompact. It can hold full-size magazines, so it’s 17+1 rounds of 40, green light/laser combo with an autolocking ECW holster.

  198. Gee Enrst I guess they’ll try to outlaw any furniture that extends beyond the trigger guard next…

    We’ll have to wear welder gloves until we can modify something better.

  199. Yeah that’s kind of the thing if you are planning to off yourself after your massacre then why would you care about the legality of buying grenades or feel deterred from mixing fertilizer and diesel bombs? Whys is this next law going to be unbreakable. And if this argument is about gun accidents instead of massacres then why is it being hung on the Newton massacre?

  200. Latest bit of silliness: UK instituted firearms restrictions after a school shootemup in 1996, and guess what? No school shootings in Scotland since. Cool, eh?

    But there were no priors, either.

    This is the kind of silliness we’re getting bombarded with.

  201. Sweet looking peice, brother.. I’ll have to check one out at the range.. I’d like a subcompact .40 to carry but the Glock doesnt feel right in my hand and and Sig doesnt make one that small (I dont think..). I considered a .357 Mag revolver like the S&W 60, but when I went to look at it at the local shop all they had was a pink ‘LadySmith’.. and pink just doesnt go with any of my outfits..

  202. Yes, I know I spelled ‘piece’ as ‘peice’ in the post above. I meant to do that.

  203. Would you like a peice of pei? Blech!

  204. Wouldn’t the deterrent of having laws against using grenades in public place or to kill someone DETER their use? Y’know, like it does with making ammonium nitrate fertilizer and diesel bombs? And using guns to kill or threaten people? And all other crimes?

    You’re really asking this out loud? Does a law against murder deter murder? Duh. Of course. You think rates of murder and theft would be exactly the same if there were no laws against them? No prosecution?

    Maybe you’re confused about what deter means. You might want to look it up before you answer.

  205. No I’m confused about how you thought it was going to prevent people making bombs or shooting a lot of people with a legal or illegal gun, and then killing themselves but somehow not work in the use of legal grenades.

  206. Your latest incarnation is played out, ss.

    Start thinking up a new handle and back story. Or, alternately, get a real and fulfilling life and then try to forget this sorry stretch of your existence.

  207. A simple desire not to hurt anybody ‘deters’ MOST violence.

  208. Start thinking up a new handle and back story. Or, alternately, get a real and fulfilling life and then try to forget this sorry stretch of your existence.

    Or, don’t get a real life, and just fuck off.

  209. A simple desire not to hurt anybody ‘deters’ MOST violence.

    So laws against murder are completely unnecessary. God was a dipshit for listing it as a commandment too. Waste of granite.

  210. Yes you stupid fuck. That’s what I’m advocating. Sure.

  211. And I want to arm all the teachers at public expense, and forbid all contraception, teach women to fear their own evil genitalia, and kick all black people out of their homes too. Because Science!(TM)

  212. And I want a howitzer in my yard too and nukes.

  213. well i know this is ancient history upthread, but i figured out which handgun we are looking at , the Kel Tec Pf9
    but I’m not buying a $300 purse to hide it in Leigh, I gotta stick with a holster for now ;)

  214. You can’t begin to figure out what I am so just paint over me and stupidly assume that defeating your painting is defeating anything at all.

    You are a loop.

  215. Not you missfixit.

  216. And I want to arm all the teachers at public expense, and forbid all contraception, teach women to fear their own evil genitalia, and kick all black people out of their homes too. Because Science!(TM)

    And have grenades and RPGs on sale at Walmart. Made in China.

  217. So laws against murder are completely unnecessary. God was a dipshit for listing it as a commandment too. Waste of granite.

    I know you’re not a theologian (har har), but I thought I would throw this out there.. The purpose of God giving those laws was not because He knew we could follow them if he just wrote it down. The purpose of the law was to hold a mirror up to the people so that they would be made aware of how depraved they truly were. It pointed to the fact that they need God’s grace, and it pointed to a messiah.

  218. No, rpg’s turn kids into nerds. We need to outlaw rpg’s and expensive table top war games too. And collectable card games. Kid’s need to find out early that they will never ever be able to become an elf.

    Except Justin Beiber. He actually did it somehow.

    But other than that: nope.

  219. The commandments – might be a mirror to make people aware, but the penalties were there to make damn sure you didn’t break the commandments:

    Exodus 21:15
    And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

  220. I think Taylor Swift’s an elf too.

  221. How about he who boreth me to tears? What’s his punishment?

  222. yes. and all the penalties in the world have never stopped murder. Because it’s who we are. There is no stopping massacres, no matter what guns you ban. This whole discussion is tiresome.

    My dad thinks we’ll get some new assault weapons ban, maybe a limit on magazines etc, and that it will have no effect on anything. He thinks the Left will never rescind the “gun free school zones”, and so they will continue to be sitting ducks,
    so I was back to my first instinct, which is that we need armed security at the gates.

  223. Erin Burnett is going out front with her boobies for to ask why

    WHY

    plus bonus funeral action, comfort dogs, intriguing speculation, a musical tribute, and much much more

    back after the break

  224. Show of hands? Who wants slippy gone and who wants him to stay. He’s using up quite a bit of my bandwidth and he doesn’t add anything of use to the conversation. He fancies himself some sort of Socrates, but we know him for the sophist he is.

    Your call. But I’m bored with him.

  225. I am bored with him too. is he the same as that other recent poster who claims to be “enjoying these discussions” or is it the same guy?

  226. plus bonus funeral action, comfort dogs, intriguing speculation, a musical tribute, and much much more

    back after the break

    I had my cable shut off and I refuse to listen to this disgusting media display. They are shameless vultures.

  227. I want slipshod gone. The fact that it will make him feel extra good, because he’s been wanting to be banned since he showed up, is unfortunate, but I can live with it.

  228. nicely done missfixit there’s a zombie movie on syfy I switched to for now

  229. Jeff, until slippy came around, I had no idea it was possible to create straw goalposts. Although it is easier to move goalposts of straw, beyond a certain point, the novelty wears off.

  230. I’m not buying a $300 purse to hide it in Leigh, I gotta stick with a holster for now ;)

    The thought of someone trying to steal your $300 purse and your new weapon will make you ever vigilant. Plus they look really sharp and come with two holsters: one for your nightstand and one for the (locking) zipper pocket on your spiffy purse.

  231. It’s your site Jeff. You know best where the thunder needs to fall.

  232. It’s almost like Slippery Slope saw people making arguments once and came up with his own cargo cult replica of that process that misses the whole point.

  233. I’m sick of him. He adds nothing but a lot of blather.

  234. leigh, don’t forget the ever important: “Hmm, does this gun accessorize with my purse?” Followed by: “Dear, I bought a new purse and I just don’t have a gun to go with it. I need to hit the gun shop to pick something up that I’m willing to be seen with. Care to come along?”

    At which point, the husband, for once, happily goes shopping with the little lady.

    The End.

  235. Tell you what I’m going to ignore Slips from now on. I’m not looking to post Jeff’s blog to death with nitter natter.

  236. I’m scurrying about, looking for things to sell, so I can come up with the money for a 5.56.

    Saw a SCAR-16 — the 5.56 baby brother to my 17 — sell for over $4300 on Gunbroker today. Two months ago you could have had one for $2300.

  237. That’s a thought, Blake. I sure can’t get him to go shoe shopping with me.

  238. Looks good, palaeomerus. I was looking at the S&W M&P because I already have one in .22LR and am familiar with shooting it. My first choice would have been the SCAR-16 because I really like the platform. Super easy to break down, to clean, etc.

  239. Jeff, you’re putting food ahead of firepower? For a Visigoth, you’re awfully reponsible.

  240. I was thinking that the AR magazine compatibility, poor-man’s bipod/shroud, built in mounting rail, and foldability into a quasi-pistol form would come in handy. On the other hand it’s light weight and I rather doubt I could properly split a wig with that plastic hinged folding stock if I had to.

    And it might be soon declared illegal with the only repeal possible coming from the whims of Prince of Chaos Roberts. I’m not sure if that’s going to be considered a ‘pistol-grip’ in legal terms or not. It sure looks like a hunting grip until your fold the gun.

  241. This is my question: the ban can be retroactive, right? I mean, weapons are grandfathered in, are they not?

  242. The last time there was a ban it applied to new sales only. So, one could sell high-capacity magazines manufactured at an earlier date, but not new ones.

    California once tried a retroactive ban on the sks, and compliance was so low that they repealed it.

  243. Weapons have always been grandfathered before but they say that the emperor Heliogabulus once filled the hippodrome with wine and drive his chariot across it so…it really all depends on what B thinks he can get away with and what everyone lets him get away with.

  244. Jeff, nomally, ex post facto laws are unconstitutional, if I remember correctly.

    These days, who knows? Probably depends on your local cops and judges.

  245. nomally? sigh. normally.

  246. Barracky sez: L’constitucion , c’est moi. Allons-y!

  247. I don’t comment much, so maybe I shouldn’t have a say, but I like having slippy around because I enjoy everyone’s replies to him.

  248. like when SW called him Slipperyloobrush. ? ;) that was my favorite today.

  249. Jeff, the kel-tec 5,56 rifle I showed you comes with a muzzle of the barrel threaded 1/2×28 to accept standard flash suppressors, muzzle brakes, or sound suppressors, and comes with a thread protector on them.

  250. slippey is fun to ignore or slap about depending on your mood

  251. I liked SBP’s comment:

    “I was going to kill a bunch of people and then off myself, but decided that since I couldn’t get a barrel shroud it just wasn’t worth the risk of burning my hand.” — psycho over in Slappy’s alternate universe.

  252. I was looking at the S&W M&P because I already have one in .22LR and am familiar with shooting it.

    I’m picking mine up tomorrow.

    well i know this is ancient history upthread, but i figured out which handgun we are looking at , the Kel Tec Pf9

    Just pulled the trigger on that for Mom. I’ll pick that up next week. I think I’m gonna declare my gun dealer as a dependent.

    As for slope, the only points in talking to him is demolishing his fallacies for the benefit of readers who are not him, and the very meager entertainment value of swatting the weary little mouse one more time. Perhaps we’ll get a fresh mouse.

  253. we need another amanda marcotte-type mouse. those are more fun.

  254. He is pretty boring, but I’ve changed my mind. If Jeff wants to let the tiresome little nimrod stick around, who am I to say anything?

    He does need to invent a new whopper of a lie of some kind. Maybe he can tell us all about his boat, which naturally he doesn’t have, and get all of the terms wrong on that score, too.

  255. I’m not buying a $300 purse to hide it in Leigh, I gotta stick with a holster for now ;)

    Somebody here linked to a holster that either built into or attaches to a bra.

    Y’know, I’d be happy to help you with the fit….

  256. [puts on red floppy-brimmed mac daddy hat w/ the big chrome ruger medallion]

    The ruger ranch rifle comes urban camouflaged for your shooting protection, and there’s a decent assortment of after-market folding stocks. One overpriced one will even make it look like a SCAR sorta. Kind of messes with the continuity of your manual of arms, though.

    (mac daddy hat –is there such a thing, or did I just make that up)

  257. ha ha i think i’ll be okay. Hey! new idea to drive traffic to my blog? Post pictures on fittings for CC hoslters?
    (I don’t have a prayer of hiding a gun in a bra – that’s for more busty women i think)

  258. I’m late to it but I think SS should stay. I have not paid anywhere close to the attention to him that you guys have, but on first pass, his responses seem rational….granted he sees things very differently than many here. I’ll concede that haven’t followed any political/policy arguments hes made, and he is not a 2nd amendment absolutist.

    For the record, Its JGs place and bills, so that holds, and I write that knowing that JGs sorest treatment has been at the hands of the right (save for Oregon batshit woman.)

  259. Rip off Gordon Liddy’s “Stacked and Packed” calendar idea, missfixit. Have girls submit photos of themselves in skimpy outfits with firearms. The best thirteen (a bonus month) make it to the calendar.

  260. oh GAWD my grandpa used to have that stacked and packed calendar, back before I really understood that concept. when he got old and dirty and the filters started coming off, he’d take out the calendar to show to the younger grandsons lol

  261. I could use a bonus month. I’d just sleep late and think about nothing for a whole month between Dec.31 and January1.

  262. Maybe if you had a sunshiny Pokemon avatar, we’d be more willing to put up with your ill-disguised dislike for us. As it is, we already have one of those, and one is more than enough.

    Hm. I’d be tempted if he chose Psyduck… but no, one griefer is enough.

  263. Is it just my computer or a bunch of avatars missing? I see circles and slashes.

  264. Is it even worth the gesture of banning the little shit? We all know he’ll be back.

  265. “Is it just my computer or a bunch of avatars missing? I see circles and slashes.”

    I’m getting it too, only I’m getting the little blue box with a question mark in the middle.

  266. That’s just weird, paleao.

  267. I have windows and I’m using Safari. I guess that’s how that combo handles “failed to load image” or something.

  268. Okay now I see them.

    Hey! You, whoever is playing with the dashboard! Stop it!

  269. missfixit, RoddyBoyd, Blake, and Church have seemingly lost their avatars.

  270. That’s crazy. They went away (Windows and running Firefox), but if I back click: there they are.

  271. Missfixit, church and Roddy don’t have avatars. Yours is gone, mine, Ernst.

    Pretty much everyone but Jeff (understandable), Pablo, happyfeet are about it.

    Hmmm.

  272. Slip’s various blathering:

    Goody. So today, do you feel that citizens should be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

    Doubling down:

    Nope. Now can you answer the question?

    Should citizens be able to own any type of weaponry they so desire?

    Ah, the disingenuous fool thinks this fallacy hasn’t been tried before and he’s come up with a brilliant strategy. If the person answers expressing a desire for limits, you’ll use that as an excuse for “reasonable” restriction on whatever firearm model is deemed doubleplus ungood. If they don’t go for restrictions you’ll use the usual progressive “So…” and pretend it means your opponent is a maniac who “wants” people to have some ridiculously overpowered weapon as a sidearm or something.

    Though I do find it interesting that you use the word “feel” as a qualifier further up. As if that should be a valid reason for restricting people’s rights. I don’t “feel” that silly Gangnam Style rap is worth much. Doesn’t mean I’ll want it off the airwaves.

    (Oddly, I do like a parody called “Gundam Style” though that’s probably because I’m an anime fan.)

  273. Yep.. Slip did exactly as I expected: Seized upon something ridiculous to wail about.

    “18-year-olds with HAND GRENADES!!1!!”

  274. Next thing you know, kids will be running around the pool! With scissors! Or pointy sticks!

  275. “Artifical newtypes
    Going mad
    Switching sides
    Getting blown up
    It’s so sa-a-a-a-a-ad!

    I just want peace
    In my mobile suit
    cutting up a mobile armor
    with my beam
    s-a-a-a-aber “

  276. Or fresh fruit…

    @palaeomerus: The parody I saw didn’t alter the lyrics, just painstakingly added a mobile suit head to pretty much every human character in the video.

    The GMs and Zakus failed to explode so that affected suspension of disbelief, but otherwise it was amusing.

  277. Though I don’t know why Slip is so worried about mere hand grenades, when people like me want a BH-209 plasgun or something like Kevyn Andreyasyn’s epaulets… ;-D

    (The former, because of the soothing noises… the latter, well, fullerened antimatter.)

    Hm. The new comic is up already. Howard Tayler is a machine…

  278. Jeff – My vote:

    If the asshole admits that he wants the citizenry to be outgunned by the government to such a degree that it is impossible to resist tyranny, he can stay.

    Because that is what he believes – and if he won’t own it, it demonstrates that he is fundamentally unserious – here to annoy, not to debate.

  279. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335848/gun-control-ignorance-thomas-sowell

    Magazine kind of sucks but Steyn and Sowell are usually on track.

  280. I really, really do believe grenades and RPG’s should be available for 18 year old’s to buy. Honest. Hell, I’d even say let 14 year old’s buy them with their parents consent.

    Just not those assault grenades. That would be wrong.

  281. It’s been my opinion that trolls that can keep from stepping over the line shouldn’t be banned. They act like a wet stone for sharpening the argument.

    In this instance, the quality of the stone is so poor, it’s hard to know if the effort is worth it, and maybe even dulling us all by being too soft.

    I’ll leave it to you Jeff, I think maybe the bastard consumed some of my IQ..

  282. Lord knows he needs every bit he can get, Lee.

  283. Crap, the vote on SS seems to be going against me.

  284. I voted the other day. What? Are we to have double-ups?

  285. Stupid Party cranky! :)

  286. Oh, I didn’t vote. Toss the moron.

    He’ll be back later under a different name but I sorta enjoy knowing that for one more brief moment he’ll be forced once again to acknowledge his chosen role in life as he creates yet another email address to… troll a blog.

    Like a winner.

  287. but maybe next time he could come back as a Navy SEAL. wouldn’t that be some shit?

  288. Keel haul the scalawag!

    And I think any weapon a criminal can get hold of and use against me, I should have the right to use back.

  289. There were so many things he wanted to be as a young boy, missfixit. Navy SEAL, wealthy businessman, heroic fireman, sharp-shooting soldier, tweedy professor…

    …but, lowly internet troll it is.

  290. Agree with SmokeVanThorn. Also, he ought either own his earlier comments about a second Obama term not being a threat to Second Amendment rights, or be gone.

  291. As far as slippy goes, machts nichts. He hasn’t gotten as gratuitously rude as hammer-boi, so I haven’t made similar efforts to uncover his meatspace location. I just assume he’s a default Leftist and therefore dishonest and untrustworthy.

  292. What the Left hasn’t figured out is that when they say “compromise” the automatic default questions are:

    How long will this “compromise” last before you take the new laws as a baseline to push for more when those new laws don’t work?

    And for the Obama administration, especially: How long will it be before you use the new laws or any unrelated law to creatively implement something like the EPA’s proposed lead ammunition ban that will get you what you really want, without the hassle of any actual votes?

    The bottom line is that the gun banners track record leads those of us who want the civil right of self-defense to treat any of their proposals as a hudna, the truce Muslims propose with infidels to allow them to build up enough strength to win by outright force. Better not to play at all.

  293. I’ll change my advisory vote to kick. I don’t want Cranky to become Cranky and Sad.

  294. I voted (on the 14th) just after the troll wrote this: “If just one of those 5 year olds had a good ’60, this whole thing could have been stopped before it got started.

    Now if a clearer demonstration of “fundamentally unserious – here to annoy”, [not to discuss] were required, I’ve no idea what it would look like.

  295. If he’s gonna be a Navy SEAL, he better know what he’s talking about. I’m waiting for him to let slip that he was a fighter pilot.

    That’ll be big fun.

  296. Was that the same troll sdferr? I thought that guy was someone different.

  297. My late vote is kick.

    I find replies to him hilarious but it is actually painful to read him regurgitating the same argument over and over, and actually trying to invite others in to swallow it and then regurgitate it again.

    It’s a textual version of 2girls1cup without the really nice music.

  298. Was that the same troll ?

    See for yourself.

  299. I dunno, I think SS sounds more like a retired fake Sub Captain who was so amazingly good at running his boat that he was forced to retire by an arms treaty with the Russians who were terrified of facing him in battle and considered him worth three aircraft carriers.

  300. Ah, I shouldn’t have asked. Yep, I back to ‘be gone, troll.’

  301. Slipshod is a tiny brained wiper of other peoples bottoms.

    I wouldn’t miss him.

  302. So is this what they call a ‘preference cascade’ in action?

Leave a Reply