June 1, 2012

War on Women (and potential women)

Just to gloss a bit on this particular leftwing meme, I’d like to note the following:

1) CNS: “The number of American women who are unemployed was 766,000 individuals greater in May 2012 than in January 2009, when President Barack Obama took office, according to data released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.”

and…

2) “Obama opposes ban on sex-selective abortions“; “Over 200 Million Girls ‘Aborted for the Sole Reason That They Were Girls’…”

The Parental Non-Discrimination Act is expected to come to the House floor Thursday, according to the office of Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa). The bill would make abortions based on a baby’s gender illegal by creating a penalty for those who knowingly have gender-selective abortions, coerce a woman into having one, or provide transportation to a woman so she can come to the U.S. to have a gender-selective abortion.

“There are more than two hundred million missing little girls who were aborted for the sole reason that they were girls,” King said in a statement.

“The three most dangerous words are ‘it’s a girl,’ but decision time does not happen when you find out the sex of your baby. PRENDA (the House bill) will protect unborn babies from being aborted because it’s about a child, not a choice. I will continue to defend the unborn. There should be no question where to stand because the choice is clear — every child deserves the right to a fulfilling life.”

“We are the only advanced country left in the world that still doesn’t restrict sex-selection abortion in any way,” said Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.), the bill’s sponsor. “This evil practice has now allowed thousands of little girls in America and millions of little girls across the world to be brutally dismembered.”

Franks and others say there is evidence of sex-selection abortions in the United States among certain ethnic groups from countries such as China and India, where there is a traditional preference for sons.

Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the nation’s largest abortion provider, issued a statement opposing the legislation.

Just thought I’d put this all into perspective for you.

But then, Sandra Fluke.  So, you know.  Checkmate, wingnuts!

Posted by Jeff G. @ 10:28am
530 comments | Trackback

Comments (530)

  1. The Parental Non-Discrimination Act

    so much for states’ rights huh

    but we knew Team R was highly selective about that already

  2. Getting your gay marriage on, a national right; killing girls, not so much.

    Federalism! Staunch!

  3. It’s illegal to fire, or refuse to hire, or pay less to, an employee who happens to be female. Killing ‘em before they ever submit an application, on the other hand, is perfectly okay!

    Thanks for clearing that up, happyfeet!

  4. States have powers. Not rights.

  5. while failmerica doubledips into another spectacular recession Team R is offering masturbatory non-solutions to non-problems I think

    even your most feeble urban public school products know to always say “to-go” at Starbucks

  6. It’s too bad we can’t put images in comments. An animated gif of an anvil landing on a pikachu would save my weary hands from so much typing.

  7. you are right excuse me… Team R seems to be suggesting that states do not have the power to opt out of silly masturbatory non-solutions to non-problems if nanny R in D.C. says they know better

  8. “while failmerica doubledips into another spectacular recession Team R is offering masturbatory non-solutions to non-problems I think”

    Some cultures are more important than others. Obviously, the “Sons First” cultures being more important than worrying about selectively culling the weaker sex. Hating women is obviously OK as long as you get them before they become, well, you know, people. Traditional conservative respect for all life isn’t all that ascendent, don’t you know? So why try to pretend it matters?

    Happyfeet is right; there’s no point about getting worked up about having a more boys in a culture than girls (which is the “read between the lines” part of this whole thing). Unless, of course, you read history. Then you know it’s a big f*cking problem.

  9. if this law has any impact at all it will be to spur innovation in gender-selection technology I think. Our friend nishi is probably rooting for this law. Hmmm. I wonder if any of the 50 businesses below are publicly-traded entities…

    The Ericsson method, first applied in a clinical setting in the 1970s by Dr. Ronald J. Ericsson, uses higher concentrations of sperm of the desired sex to increase the likelihood of conceiving that sex. The method has a 70-72% success rate for boys and a 69-75% success rate for girls.[4] Currently, approximately 50 gender selection centers in the United States use the Ericsson Method for artificial gender selection.[

  10. I happen to agree with happy that the bill wouldn’t have done dick. It would have been largely symbolic. People would simply learn not to admit that they are aborting based on gender and race. Doctors would require that you not tell them.

    Yet, sometimes symbolism is important. And here, the vote against the measure is symbolic. As is the way happyfeet reacted. Symbolic and telling.

  11. Mr. Kresh can you show me the data where sex-selective abortions are warping the male/female population skew in failmerica?

    This is a problem in America what only exists in Lila Rose’s skanky fever dreams.

  12. ok I am done with this subject … maybe it is important symbolism

    but I still question the timing

  13. This is a problem in America what only exists in Lila Rose’s skanky fever dreams.

    There. Now you see the purpose of this post.

    I love to drag them out into the light.

  14. This is a great bit of symbolism after they went all in on their “War on Women” gambit.

  15. I dance in the light Mr. jeff

    come on shake your body baby do the conga say I

  16. It’ll be a fun day for pikachus everywhere when the homo gene is found and peoples don’t want no gay assed babies.

  17. Exactly, bh.

    But it didn’t deal with the spendings so the stupid mouthbreathers need to shut up and kill Tim Tebow’s whore mother with stones.

  18. You pretend you’re Pee Wee Herman dancing. But really you are Paul Reubens slapping you meat puppet at some seedy porn theater.

  19. as a keen student of failmerican pop culture I would assert it’s just as likely that gay babies will become status symbols Mr. Abe

  20. It’ll be a fun day for pikachus everywhere when the homo gene is found and peoples don’t want no gay assed babies.

    Somewhere in the archives I made this very argument vs nishi and Andrew Sullivan, if I’m remembering correctly.

    The knots they twisted their arguments into trying to get their strings straight were amusing to behold.

  21. Mr. Kresh can you show me the data where sex-selective abortions are warping the male/female population skew in failmerica?

    “Read between the lines,” I believe I said. Go look up what happens in a society/ culture/ country where the males outnumber the females. That is my point.

  22. If a ladyfolk would ever deign to allow you inside of her, you might could test that theory for yourself. In the meantime, you best come to terms with the fact that gay assed babies come from everywhere, and everywhere ain’t Hollywood.

  23. This is a problem in America what only exists in Lila Rose’s skanky fever dreams.

    And at Planned Parenthood. Where she filmed it.

  24. nobody tell Mr. Pablo that Lila Rose didn’t actually capture anyone wanting to get a sex-selective abortion on film

  25. There. Now you see the purpose of this post.

    I love to drag them out into the light.

    Well done. True colors and all that.

    And this PC doctor and communications consultant (despite having, like the house electric rodent, a fanged hatred for pro-lifers) indicate sex-selection abortions are a big fuckin’ deal:

    However, as birth order rises, apparently so does selection — at least, in certain ethnic groups. With 2000 U.S. Census data, researchers investigating Korean, Chinese, and Indian communities found that, after having one girl, parents have as many as 1.17 boys per girl when their next child is born. With two girls at home, the ratio goes up to 1.51 boys per girl for the third child (meaning 151 boys are born for each 100 girls). These skewed ratios aren’t present among other ethnic groups in America.

    This intentional kid picking takes multiple forms. Today, Americans can learn — and thus select for sex — as early as seven weeks into a pregnancy, using a non-invasive blood test making big news in popular and obstetric circles. Far more reliable than urine-based guesses from Walgreen’s and far safer than other early use options, this new technique is meant to minimize sex-linked genetic diseases, which disproportionately plague boys. But this product enters a market where some parents-to-be pine not just for any healthy baby; some want what they see as a particular kind.

    Although alarmists hypothesize a rise in sex-selective abortions, more and more the interest (and well-marketed new product development) lies in meddling before implantation. Techniques like sperm sorting and IVF embryo selection are expensive. Even the most generous insurance package doesn’t cover these procedures when not medically necessary. Yet as of 2006, half of American fertility clinics that offer embryo screening allow would-be parents some form of sex-selective add-ons … and the market is growing. Never mind that the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology has come out harshly against non-medically necessary sex selection, and even the American Society for Reproductive Medicine has issued lukewarm cautions about it.

    These clinics advertise their sex-selective wares heavily in ethnic language media and enclaves where Asian Americans reside. Offering would-be parents soft focus images of white babies on pink and blue blankets, they couch their practices in the affirming language of “family balancing.” Doesn’t that sound much better than sexism, eugenics, or designer babies?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/sex-selection-in-america-why-it-persists-and-how-we-can-change-it/257864/

  26. nobody tell Mr. Pablo that Lila Rose didn’t actually capture anyone wanting to get a sex-selective abortion on film

    Right. She just got PP explaining how to do it to women who said they wanted to.

    O’Keefe and Giles? Never really had any child prostitutes. Which, Bertha Lewis can breathe easy, right? Dumbass.

  27. It’s weird because PP is forever letting people film abortions.

  28. Since I never lived in a society that has this male skew preference or “tradition”, I don’t know much about why it exists. But I have this vague idea it boils down to a sort of economic transaction rooted in marriage exchange customs. Is that correct? It originates as a matter of calculation for prospective gain?

  29. Males can do heavier farm work. And don’t require a dowry.

    Is my cliched guess.

  30. They keep the family name alive too.

  31. I must say it’s very suspicious that this Mitt Romney fellow never had any daughters I think

    verrrrrry suspicious indeed!

  32. Yet, sometimes symbolism is important.

    Symbols rule the world, not words nor laws -Confucius

  33. Breeder whore slut of his shoulda let herself be scraped out a time or two if they wanted to keep trying for a daughter eh?

    fucking idiot

  34. Jeff G. says June 1, 2012 at 11:08 am

    I’m glad you raised that parallel so I wouldn’t have to.

  35. Societies which have an excess of unattached young males, young men who will never have a marital relationship with a woman, are unstable and prone to making war on neighboring nations.

    There have been two ways traditionally that this imbalance occurs, the killing of female babies after birth because they are not wanted and polygamy where the most powerful males take multiple wives thus depriving lower status males of any hope of a wife.

    This is not a problem in the United States at this time but this symbolic move does send a message to nations where it is one that has growing implications for global stability. Hello China and India for this method, Islam works the polygamy side of the same street to instability.

  36. So we’re not simply transcendently better than the gashes? And for all that great gifted none-of-nothing get to die earlier too? Shucks.

  37. Since I never lived in a society that has this male skew preference or “tradition”, I don’t know much about why it exists. But I have this vague idea it boils down to a sort of economic transaction rooted in marriage exchange customs. Is that correct? It originates as a matter of calculation for prospective gain.

    Pretty much this, along with what Jeff said. Add in some religious/philosophical reinforcement for the cultures in question, and voila–a horrifying sex imbalance.

    Sons can work and earn, ensuring that there will be income support for parents as they age. Daughters cost money to marry out, and will be too busy caring for their own children even if the culture didn’t frown on them working. Plus, in shame cultures like those of East Asia, daughters can dishonor the family name by misbehavior more than sons. Thankfully, there is precious little honor killing in non-Muslim East Asia. It’s also fair to note that there is precious little female infanticide in Islam, as the Quran unequivocally condemns the practice.

    It’s so bad in India that an woman being interviewed for the “It’s a Girl” documentary admitted to infanticide on eight of her newborn daughters. The trailer’s available online, and is pretty harrowing.

    The British didn’t Napierize the place enough, that’s for sure.

  38. this symbolic move does send a message to nations where it is one that has growing implications for global stability

    sex-selective abortion is already outlawed in china Mr. geoff

  39. Oh, and yes–Pablo’s right, too. The sons are the name-bearers. In Japan, they have/had a custom of “adopting” a husband for a daughter so that the family name can be carried on. I can’t remember the term for the husband, but while an accepted institution, it was usually only grudgingly accepted by the groom’s family. A lot of ambivalence about it on both sides.

  40. Would it be possible to abort Goofus, and keep Gallant?

  41. sex-selective abortion is already outlawed in china Mr. geoff

    Instead they have indiscriminate abortion for other reasons, such as “you already have a child” and “your child challenged the political ruling class so we performed an extremely-late-term abortion on him; here’s the bill for the bullet.”

  42. morally troubling but I think we can swing it Mr. buttons

    do you have a promo code?

  43. Why does happyfeet hate baby girls?

  44. right you are Mr. McGehee but why do we think failmerica’s law will be any more successful than the Chineser law?

    Cause of we have Eric Holder at Justice?

    And do we really want our government to have the tools and powers to be crackerjack womb police?

    It’s a troubling idea.

    Fortunately this whole dealio is just pandery symbolism.

  45. The effect of the law has been to slightly lessen the imbalance but only in the more affluent cities. The ratios for those poor in the countryside remain very high and it is poor young males who are most destabilizing.

  46. And it is the symbolism, the taking of a position that this is wrong, morally wrong, which is the only hope for changing this situation for the better in an way which is itself morally acceptable.

  47. well the first thing to do I think is to translate Mr. Niebuhr’s prayer into several Chineser dialects

  48. and then after that maybe we could symbolically reaffirm that that government governs best which governs least

  49. and then after that we could stop at Ralph’s and pick up some tasty low-cal Arctic Zero frozen dessert (just not the coffee flavor cause they didn’t get that one quite right)

  50. Again, the yellow menace comes out with his “The government has no place standing in the way if people want to murder their daughters” argument.

    This thread is the most illuminating of any we’ve seen in some time. Seek help, happy. I mean that.

  51. Tell us, happy — since you’ve cemented your position as our foremost proponent of murdering little girls: is there a point at which you’d concede that little girls can expect the government to protect their lives? Third trimester? Kindergarten? Fiesta de Quinceañera? Carousel?

    Or is that “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” stuff just for guys with big swinging dicks like you?

  52. Mr. Squid it really hasn’t been shown that Americans want to kill wee baby girls to any significant degree whatsoever

    this is an ineffective feckless wholly symbolic solution in search of a problem

    This law won’t do a damn thing and to the degree it did anything, it would only serve to enhance the market for gender selection research.

    But no one ever accused Lila Rose of thinking with her brains.

  53. Looking at current America culture, I would think little boy fetus’s (fetii?) would be in more danger from sexually discriminating parents than little girl fetus’s.

  54. And no one has ever accused the feets of thinking with much of anything, have they?

  55. Americans don’t care if it’s a boy or a girl as long as it’s healthy is what they say and me I believe them Mr. Lee

  56. Mr. Squid it really hasn’t been shown that Americans want to kill wee baby girls to any significant degree whatsoever.

    How many dead little girls need to pile up before you’ll consider it “significant,” happy? Or to put it in terms your identity-politics-loving allies might appreciate: how heavily skewed does the ratio of dead girls to dead boy have to be before it’s “significant?” I mean, how ’bout I see your 78 cents on the dollar female earnings, and raise you 78 dead baby boys per 100 dead baby girls? You down with that?

  57. Mr. Squid if it is for reals significant than why aren’t the lifeydoodles trying to pass a law that would actually, you know, address the fucking problem?

  58. what’s funny is that the lifeydoodles have entire fleets of roaming lifeywagons dedicated to providing free ultrasounds where people can find out whether or not they have a wee small baby boy or a wee small baby girl, and bam then they can do whatever they want with that information

  59. Mr. Squid if it is for reals significant than why aren’t the lifeydoodles trying to pass a law that would actually, you know, address the fucking problem?

    Mostly, it’s because the murderdoodles got the Supremes to guarantee them the right to murder. Women and minorities hardest hit!

  60. You mean like a law that would outlaw abortion?

  61. Americans don’t care if it’s a boy or a girl as long as it’s healthy is what they say and me I believe them Mr. Lee.

    And Americans NEVER change their minds on social issues, so we’re safe there.

    It is true that a law outlawing sex-selective abortions would be useless. Also, as Harsanyi points out what’s the difference between aborting because you want to and aborting because it’s a girl? Or because it’s gay or Trisomy 21 or Trisomy anything?

    Abortion-on-demand is abortion-on-demand. The motive for the demand has not and cannot be bracketed off.

    So yes, symbolic, and also to point out that if sex-selective abortion is abhorrent, non-selective abortion probably is, too.

  62. what’s funny is that the lifeydoodles have entire fleets of roaming lifeywagons dedicated to providing free ultrasounds where people can find out whether or not they have a wee small baby boy or a wee small baby girl, and bam then they can do whatever they want with that information

    What’s funny is that these efforts are tailored to make prospective mothers face the fact that they’re deciding the fate of a human being. (Or a potential human being, if you’re unwilling to grant a genetically unique entity with human DNA the identity of “human being.”) It’s an effort that you and your fellow murderdoodles find completely abhorrent and unfair, and have gone out of your way to marginalize, belittle, and laugh off, because you simply cannot handle the cognitive dissonance involved. (But hey, you just keep telling yourself that the rest of us can’t hear the desperation in your condescending laughter.)

    It’s a big part of the reason why nobody here is surprised to see you out front and loud in your denunciation of the proposed Act. Any admission that your culture of casual abortion is having a horribly unbalanced effect — to the detriment of your sacrosanct women and minorities — might have effects similar to lifeywagons that you’ve worked so hard to brush aside. Heavens forfend that you have to defend your murderdoodle culture on another front! Can you imagine if women and minorities started asking why you’ve been advocating for their “culling” lo these many years?

  63. I think statistics should be kept in order to quantify the number of abortions for each state and the reason why the abortion was requested in order to ascertain the long term effects of abortion on the viability of the Social Security Plan. This for the greater good, don’t ya know.

  64. No the truth, sweet dumb Lila, is that we are all already living in an America where sex-selective abortions are as socially unacceptable as anywhere in the world

  65. { Insert gif of an anvil falling off the roof of Acme Corporation and crushing a pikachu}

  66. we are all already living in an America where sex-selective abortions are as socially unacceptable as anywhere in the world

    So why the objections?

    We are the only advanced country left in the world that still doesn’t restrict sex-selection abortion in any way,” said Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.), the bill’s sponsor.

  67. Which is to say that it is socially acceptable, as the Atlantic article points out in detail.

    And I love how happy (sic) gets pissed only at conservative women, even though they aren’t threatening liberty. Marcotte proposes regulating what he can put on his fork and he shrugs. Rose points out fraud on the part of a government-subsidized business, and she’s a “skank.” Makes me wonder what hf really thinks of the ladies who contribute here.

  68. I’d like to take this moment to remind our friend happyfeet that he is only here, free to spout off about murdering babies what are girls like it’s no big deal, because his own mother decided to give him the gift of life and not the kiss of death.

  69. why do we think failmerica’s law will be any more successful than the Chineser law?

    For the same reason I keep trying to respond to your idiotic spewings as if they were arguments. Thank you for reminding me that some things really are futile.

  70. Way back here, feets said:

    ok I am done with this subject

    And we see how long that lasted.

  71. Makes me wonder what hf really thinks of the ladies who contribute here.

    He’s made that pretty clear over the years, so there’s no need to wonder.

    Fortunately, there’s no need to care, either.

  72. You mean like a law that would outlaw abortion?

    not really Mr. Ernst the vast majority of abortions take place well before gender can even be determined, and by the time you can tell gender an abortion is just plain tacky anyway unless you have some really compelling reasons

  73. the vast majority of abortions take place well before gender can even be determined, and by the time you can tell gender an abortion is just plain tacky anyway unless you have some really compelling reasons

    Yet the dumbfuck has been clucking like a chicken for much of the day anyway.

  74. you are a very disdainful person Mr. Froman but that’s ok you gotta express

    I get that

  75. I think you mean the sex of the fetus. Gender refers to language, not reproductive organs.

  76. harvard disagrees leigh but sure I’ll go with it

  77. I’m just more to the point than you are happy. We sort of have to infer that you hate coherence, consistent rationality, women and Godly people from your vomitous musings.

  78. The shame reality that dare not speak it’s name .

  79. I disagree with Harvard, so we’ll call it even.

  80. the vast majority of abortions take place well before gender can even be determined

    I’d like to see actual stats on that. Anyway, the question is, how many abortions that take place after gender is known wouldn’t have been done if the gender was different? And how many would that have to be before you admitted it was something that needed to be addressed?

    I’m thinking the law should be no abortion after the point gender can be determined. That shouldn’t be a problem if the vast magority of abortions occur before then.

  81. here are statistics Mr. lee

    88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).

    In 2008, 7.3% of all abortions were performed at 14-20 weeks’ gestation; 1.3% were performed at ?21 weeks’ gestation (CDC).

  82. I’m thinking the law should be no abortion after the point gender can be determined.

    I’m cool with that for the most part if you’re gonna have an abortion you shouldn’t dawdle

    there may be a need for some flexibility in certain circumstances but still that would make a good bullet point for the best practices binder

  83. 13 weeks?

    Dale Price says June 1, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Today, Americans can learn — and thus select for sex — as early as seven weeks into a pregnancy

  84. I’m not finding a method to determine gender that early Mr. lee

    this says 4 months is about the earliest people know

  85. here we go you can do DNA analysis after 7 weeks

    so what are the stats on DNA analysis?

  86. Well, a matter of time I suppose. Still, I’m cool with limiting abortion to the first trimester, barring those special circumstances you mentioned.

    There, now we got that settled, how about them queer fellows going all square on us and wanting to do the Ozzie and Harriet shtick? I mean, how provincial can you get, am I right?

  87. DNA analysis was established as a means for couples who are at risk of genetic abnormalities to be forewarned about the special needs or possible death (in utero or shortly after birth) of the child, not as a means of sex selection for the snuffing out of baby girls.

  88. right Mr. lee gay marriage may indeed be one of those careful-what-you-ask-for things

    but no harm no foul I say

    DNA analysis was established as a means for couples who are at risk of genetic abnormalities

    yes leigh that’s where you can find some actual statistics…

    The limited available data suggest that rates of termination vary by genetic condition as well as the mother’s background. The rate of termination is around 85% for Down syndrome and lower for less severe conditions. Hispanic women are the least likely of all women to have abortions following prenatal testing. The California State Genetic Disease Branch, which keeps the best records on pregnancies diagnosed with a severe neural tube defect, suggest a large range, from less than 20% for Hispanics to more than 90% for all women beginning prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy.>

  89. So, I guess those unborn baby girls with Down Syndrome are right at the tippy-top of the kill list?

    I’m glad I had my boys back in the dark ages before all this testing.

  90. I don’t think that necessarily follows, leigh

    about the baby girls with Down Syndrome

    but yeah they didn’t exactly draw the long straw

  91. Happyfeet, you are so in denial. Americans are not superior human beings to the Chinese, or anyone else. If you have a culture that favors having only one child, as ours is doing, it’s natural human nature to desire a boy. It’s not rational to have abortion on demand, single child couples, and imagine gender wouldn’t be a consideration for the totally-free-to-choose family.

    It’s one of those “consequences” conservatives give consideration to.

  92. I don’t see any evidence of rampant sex-selective abortion in America Mr. Lee I see a pervasive attitude of boy or girl is fine we just want a healthy baby

    both models are very cute you know and within days they become amusingly interactive

  93. I see evidence that soon parents will be designing babies; gender, hair/eye color, any of the genetic options available.

    But then, there’s that difference in being able to choose the gender, and killing the baby because it’s not the gender you want. I think the bill was about the latter.

    Choosing the characteristics of your baby seems creepy and wrong to me, just on a visceral level , but I don’t know about passing a law…

  94. If I get to design a kid, I want one that will consider Pokemon to be the lamest thing EVAH!

  95. Here’s some polling. That tells me that once it’s cheap and easy enough, we’ll get an imbalance.

    Get ready for girl baby tax credits.

  96. that says if you can only have one child Mr. bh

    that is not a realistic premise in America

  97. Yeah, we probably won’t have even one child.

  98. you can have oodles of children Mr. bh especially if you’re a Republican politician but Pelosi had like a whole litter as well

  99. But, more seriously, there will be a bias against first child females and second or third females after a first female.

  100. Ask me what booze I’ll buy if I can only have one bottle and you’ll probably find that I buy more of that kind of booze in a year.

  101. I just can’t get excited about the American sex-selective abortion epidemic

  102. man that stock market sure looks pretty, uh, down.

    well maybe we should do something to cheer it up then!

    well what do you, um… suppose we should do?

    Does it like… butter tarts?

  103. Turning now to the “Warpaint on Woman” section

  104. that says if you can only have one child Mr. bh

    that is not a realistic premise in America

    I’m sure if you found a chart of family size through the years, there would be a evident decline. Most of the western world is below sustainable rates(less than 2 per couple), America is one of the few barely over. Mr. Steyn wrote a book about it.

    Middle America thinks having lots of kids is not a realistic premise. These days, I bet lots are wondering if they’ll ever be able to provide a home for even one baby.

    It’s not a rule, it just is.

  105. so we need more babies but we can also rely on immigrant babies in a pinch – they’re every bit as super-cute as the domestic ones plus they do the jobs the other babies won’t do –

    and for reals the idea that we need more babies to sustain “America” so we’re gonna outlaw abortion is really creepy, and that may not be what you’re suggesting exactly, but it’s not a very American way of thinking

  106. so we’re gonna outlaw abortion

    why not its an effin barbaric practice up there with eating a homeless peeps face

  107. Never fear, Lee. One of my friends has six daughters. Another has four and six sons. Catholics will help replenish the earth.

  108. eating faces is bad manners but it’s not something one could call a practice I don’t think

  109. That’s not what I’m suggesting even remotely.

  110. mormons are very fecund as well

    also the aforementioned immigrants do pretty well

  111. ok Mr. lee I didn’t think you were going there it’s just a logical progression of some of Steyn’s arguings

    he gets in quite a tizzy about birthrates and such

  112. Well leigh, that was kinda a side issue. I took the bait.

  113. but it’s not something one could call a practice I don’t think

    let’s just say eating peeps and killing babies is not good

    Maryland man charged with killing, eating man’s brain, heart

  114. it’s a fallen world Mr. newrouter

    but it’s rarely made better by the U.S. government getting all up in people’s shit

  115. and the gay guy shouldn’t eat the chinaman

    link

  116. but it’s rarely made better by the U.S. government getting all up in people’s shit

    that’s why roevwade is so wrong. i mean penumbras are a little pricey for a failshit country.

  117. these are extremely picayune issues set against the enormity of failshit America’s impending date with destiny I think Mr. newrouter

    nobody ever looks to a failshit little whorestate for moral leadership, and our one won’t be any different

  118. Little things mean a lot, happy.

    You aren’t spending enough time with Baby A.

  119. i love wazzles to death I just don’t want to live in a dorky womb policing country I think it’s antithetical to America… what needs to happen is the federal government needs to get the fuck out of everyone’s business or next thing you know we have faggot Bloombergs all up our ass

  120. Still going …

  121. what needs to happen is the federal government needs to get the fuck out of everyone’s business

    the fed gov’t shouldn’t find penumbras to take away state’s amend. 10 rights.

  122. It’s never been about womb policing … hf, now that you’ve give up your affair with Nishi, have you been meeting Mandy Marcotte in the linen closet? …

    it’s about the content of that womb … a separate individual … it its rights.

  123. …just don’t want to live in a dorky womb policing country I think it’s antithetical to America… what needs to happen is the federal government needs to get the fuck out of everyone’s business…

    Too late.

    It’s the reason the Church is suing the government for doing the fandango on the First Amendment.

  124. aw, abe, I just got here …

  125. by the way i’m just here for hf’s pastry recommendations

  126. Unbelievable. It’s like perpetually puerile motion.

  127. no pastries today but I might do some tamales

  128. Unbelievable.

    bosh and pickles that’s hyperbole Mr. Slart it’s entirely believable and I think you know that and I know for sure everyone else knows it

    you’re the only one pretending to be agog and you’re not selling it

  129. Tamales have carbs.

  130. I know… it’s a thing

    I’ll be good Saturday Sunday and Monday and Tuesday I promise

  131. There, now we got that settled, how about them queer fellows going all square on us and wanting to do the Ozzie and Harriet shtick? I mean, how provincial can you get, am I right?

    Marriage is slavery, what I hear. Everyone should have it however they want it!

  132. It’s just a piece of paper, Pablo. Real love doesn’t need a license to justify its love.

  133. No the truth, sweet dumb Lila, is that we are all already living in an America where sex-selective abortions are as socially unacceptable as anywhere in the world

    Unless you go into, say, Planned Parenthood looking for one. Though, they’re happy to take race-specific abortion donations so the what’s acceptable bar isn’t very high there.

    Pretty much, they kill for money and they’ll kill anything you want dead if your cash is green. Motivations aren’t their concern.

    BTW, if sex-selective abortions are so socially unacceptable, why did all the Democrats vote to keep them legal after sweet dumb Lila dumped the issue in their laps and forced them to take a position?

  134. leigh, you are clearly a tool of TEH PATRIARCHY™! Why do you hate wimmens? And bottoms?

  135. love is very pleasing in the sight of Mr. God you gotta figure

    even Mr. Catholic God I think and even Mr. Mormon God I think

    they’d all three get a kick out of gay marriage I bet – “hah! those rascals,” they’d chuckle, and then go back to doing God stuff

  136. God, through His surrogates tells us to “love the sinner; hate the sin”

    I’m down with that.

    Pablo, I’m all about the patriarchy. Oppress me, baby!

  137. Mr. Pablo this whole thing about the retarded symbolic bill has been beat to death

    skanky skanky Lila has had her fifteen minutes leading a dumb Arizona hick and various and sundry other hack politician whores around by their dicks and now we have to go back to talking about jobs and deficits and energy and trade and Iran and Syria other for reals actual problems

  138. Insult as argument. That never works.

  139. you didn’t see no Lila Rose law get passed now didja?

  140. I didn’t see you get no law passed either, skank.

  141. I didn’t want a law passed Mr. Pablo I just wanted these gay ass pandering squack Republicans to stop it with all the bullshit theatrics about their non-solution to a non-problem

    weirdos

    we’re in the middle of a campaign where we’re trying to get a mandate to do some awfully difficult things – it’s no time to indulge in fantasy bullshit about how America is becoming JUST LIKE GODLESS CHINA

  142. Isn’t it? Only with gay weddings on tap, so to speak?

  143. we’re in the middle of a campaign where we’re trying to get a mandate to do some awfully difficult things

    Like teh ghey marriagings! IMPORTANT!!!

  144. while we have all these horrific problems at hand I’m more than happy to slow walk the gay marriage thing leigh just so long as I get to squawk “BIGOT!” like a tourette’s patient every so often

    but but but

    the other side has to knock it off with the unconstitutional DOMA crap and the threats to scribble sacred definitions all over the constitution

  145. Another thread-jacking. Big sur-f’ing-prise.

  146. Happyfeet needs a few days in the woods with Phil and Si Robertson.

  147. googling

  148. How’s about we never talk about the gay marriage again? No one likes it. Not one state has passed an amendment that has stuck, that I’m aware of. Move to Canada where they like that sort of thing and you can go to jail for saying bad things about Allah.

    If it’s really about the fairness (which it isn’t) they wouldn’t be prancing around making a giant deal out of it and still having the Gay Pride parades where you have to shield your child’s eyes from all the swinging dicks on display.

  149. the other side has to knock it off with the unconstitutional DOMA crap and the threats to scribble sacred definitions all over the constitution

    Wait, weren’t you all about state’s rights right here?

  150. oh. I like ducks Mr. Abe we’re towards the end of baby duck season right now I saw bunches of them when I was up in Idaho last week – baby ducks and baby Canadian geese too

    really beautiful animals

    but a couple of months ago on my way to work we all had to stop while mama duck and her ducklings waddled across Lankershim at rush hour

    Universal has this wonderful duck pond round back of their headquarters a lot of people don’t know is there

    but even knowing where they’d come from it was still kinda surreal

  151. How’s about we never talk about the gay marriage again? No one likes it.

    Obama likes it. He just wants to slow walk it. Which…

  152. Obama is a big nancy fag. There, I said it.

  153. I’m about states’ rights when the federal government is passing stupid gay fascist laws about crap they have no business passing laws about.

    But I don’t think the gay marriage thing is a state’s rights thing anymore – I used to – but now I think it’s more just a plain old right what people should simply insist on cause of it’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it.

    Or very close to the right time to do it anyway.

  154. The black preachers who marched for real Civil Rights have announced that they didn’t march ONE STEP for gay marriage and he better take his endorsement and shove it sideways, I’m paraphrasing.

  155. Oh, ferchrissakes, I can’t hep mysef. HF, marriage = man/woman. You get to decide the definition of homosexual coupling. Whatever you want excepting one word already taken. And they can have every right of “married” couples. Now, how about we work on the fall of Western Civilization. A small part of which is the bastardization of language.

  156. but now I think it’s more just a plain old right what people should simply insist on cause of it’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it.

    yea i feel the same way about the metric system

  157. But I don’t think the gay marriage thing is a state’s rights thing anymore – I used to – but now I think it’s more just a plain old right what people should simply insist on cause of it’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it.

    Where not being murdered because you’re going to be a girl? Fiddle faddle. It’s just not the right time to stand against that while rump rangers are intent on pretending that one of them is just like a woman! Priorities!

    On the bright side, no abortions.

  158. kilometres and klondikes i say

  159. Oh, in case anyone hadn’t noticed, Obama just lost the War on Women to Lila Rose and Live Action.

  160. nr, you just may have hit upon it. Most leftist positions are just pretend.
    Either that or I should stop swilling red wine on a Friday night.

  161. kilometres and klondikes

    Heh. That’s good, nr.

  162. the algore of the french revolution with decimalized days and cupcakes or just cake.

  163. Happyfeet,

    Unless you are actually the President of the California chapter of team life and you’ve been practicing some strange form of reverse-persuasion, shouldn’t your marketing-spidey sense be causing you to break out into hives by now?

  164. i just make the comments Mr. Danger I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds

    I’d just feel remiss if I failed to share my point of view

    and that is that people what have an agenda for government apart from cutting its balls off are not really helpful in these waning days of America

    and to navigate the treacherous times ahead I think our countrymen should be allowed a maximal freedom to organize their affairs to their best advantage

    is a government what is quite proactive in womb policing really in any way a materially better one in which you can have faith? Fuck no I say. Our government is a fucking joke what is exponentially more deadly to people’s hopes dreams and ambitions than abortion and methamphetamine and face-eating cannibals all rolled up together.

    A whore what dances to Lila Rose’s tune still ain’t nothing but a dancing whore.

    so whether it means aborting something of which they are not fond or marrying someone of whom they are quite fond or drinking a goddamn slurpee

    have at it kids and don’t let your failshit whorish can’t even pass a budget government tell you dick

  165. A whore what dances to Lila Rose’s tune still ain’t nothing but a dancing whore.

    found the: the “no labels party” you go transgendered cannibal thang. more tamales please.

  166. tamales are a post-laundry reward Mr. newrouter

  167. I’d just feel remiss if I failed to share my point of view
    and that is that people what have an agenda for government apart from cutting its balls off are not really helpful in these waning days of America
    and to navigate the treacherous times ahead I think our countrymen should be allowed a maximal freedom to organize their affairs to their best advantage

    That’s bullshit.

  168. Something tells me that you suck more cock that Lila does.

  169. and that is that people what have an agenda for government apart from cutting its balls off are not really helpful in these waning days of America

    Unless they’re declaring the gay marriagings because:

    But I don’t think the gay marriage thing is a state’s rights thing anymore – I used to – but now I think it’s more just a plain old right what people should simply insist on cause of it’s the right thing to do and the right time to do it.

    Because of the consistency!

  170. Staunch.

  171. why do you suppose I think now is the right time to do it?

  172. Because now is when you want it! Certainly not because it might be a good time to normalize it while America is busy failing.

  173. what other people are doing is largely invisible to me, even though I click a lot of links

    and Mr. Pablo I don’t spend much energy worrying about what they’re getting up to, except for that thing where they buy scads of Stephenie Meyer books

    that’s kind of troubling

  174. Let’s all go to the lobby, let’s all go to the lobby, let’s all go to the lobby, and have ourselves an abortion ghey marriage!

  175. killing babies ain’t cool la types.

  176. Credit where credit’s due: the Stephanie Meyer joke was a hoot.-

  177. what other people are doing is largely invisible to me, even though I click a lot of links

    Then why don’t you tell us why you think now is the right time to do it from your largely disconnected perspective?

  178. I told you why because marriage is a tool what people may perchance use to their advantage, if only to lend a bit of security or cohesion or predictability to their luckless lives what they are living in our crumbling and forsaken America

    if it clicks for them and they can make it work more power to them I say

  179. Oh, in case anyone hadn’t noticed, Obama just lost the War on Women to Lila Rose and Live Action.

    Pretty much. She enrages all the right people, which is a sign she’s over the target.

  180. for the la freaktoids

    Steely Dan Showbiz Kids

  181. Anybody read any histories of the Spanish Civil War?

  182. I told you why because marriage is a tool what people may perchance use to their advantage

    no making babies involves man & woman. ax darwin for the “science”.

  183. That’s the most banal definition of marriage I’ve ever seen.

  184. We got each other and that’s enough?

    Living on a prayer?

    Jesus. H Christ on a popsicle stick!

  185. Anybody read any histories of the Spanish Civil War?

    Homage to Catalonia by Orwell is a great book, though more a first-hand account than a broad historical overview.

  186. no no no Mr. Ernst it’s not my definition of marriage – everyone has their own one of those

    you see, it’s not like most gay people aren’t raised with an innate understanding of whatever “sacred definition” it was that defined marriage (or the lacking of marriage) in the household they grew up in… it’s what they know – and if you teach a child in the ways of the Lord, when they are old they will not depart from it – that is a true fact – so of course there’s gay people what have the same desire to order their lives similarly to the other kids what grew up in their house

    for people to say – to their own fucking children no less – that no no no this way of life is for everyone but you – is really fucked up and extraordinarily hateful, abusive and very much antithetical to the teachings of Mr. Jesus I think

  187. Anybody read any histories of the Spanish Civil War?

    I’ve read a bit of Orwell on getting shot through the neck on almost assassinated by his commie allies. Does that count?

    I think I read For Whom the Bell tolls

    Or maybe it was The Sun Also Rises It all runs together

    Except for the Bogey–Bacall movie Hawkes directed.

  188. Hemingway’s best shit is his hunting shit, in my opinion.

    which ain’t worth shit

  189. “You Give Love a Bad Name” works here as well.

  190. Does this retarded woodpecker ever stop?

  191. it’s not like most gay people aren’t raised with an innate understanding of whatever “sacred definition” it was that defined marriage (or the lacking of marriage) in the household they grew up in… it’s what they know – and if you teach a child in the ways of the Lord, when they are old they will not depart from it – that is a true fact – so of course there’s gay people what have the same desire to order their lives similarly to the other kids what grew up in their house

    Unfortunately, homosexuality is inherently dis-ordered.

    Alas. But there it is.

  192. what’s retarded Mr. Abe is judging the value of gay marriage without any examination of what gay marriage looks like in real life

    is it productive is it promoting of order and peace is it felicitous is it depressing or enfeebling does it make for good neighbors does it help provide a safety net does it lead to the abuse of small animals does it encourage the production of baked goods are gay married people more likely to remember your birthday is it something Jesus would look at and say hey that’s pretty cool or would he send an army of rabid woodchucks to destroy their landscaping

    there’s a lot we just don’t know

  193. Has anyone ever tried to enter a cat in the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show?

  194. Holy shit, it’s not like we could just, I dunno, campaign for parity in civil unions, is it. California had to go all MARRIAGE FOR EVERYONE despite the fact we have the best legislation concerning domestic partnerships in the nation, pretty much.

    Just like we can’t address perinatal maternal mortality by working on standards of obstetric care. The best route is always using the government to enforce a policy the majority doesn’t actually agree with!

    No. Screw it. I am done with this horrific mess. Soft eugenics needs to be kept legal because outlawing it means clearly, medical care for women will explode in a hail of fire? No. A million times no.

    (BTW, finished Tyranny of Cliches today. Pretty amazing book. It made me happy about the world until I came here.)

  195. “Spilling the Spanish Beans”
    “response to Authors take sides in the Spanish War
    “Notes on the Spanish Militias?”
    “Review: The Civil War in Spain

    All by Orwell. (titles as given in the Everyman’s Library edition of George Orwell: Essays

    Great bit of nightstand reading, by the way.

  196. You assume that I’m actually reading all your comments, hf. I’ve learned to not bother because you’re such a pitiful communicator that it’s a certainty that I’ll disagree with you even if I don’t. You’re in so over your head trying to persuade people here that, as Danger noted, it’s as if you’re hapless on purpose.

  197. for people to say – to their own fucking children no less – that no no no this way of life is for everyone but you – is really fucked up and extraordinarily hateful, abusive and very much antithetical to the teachings of Mr. Jesus I think

    Yes. It’s really very terrible that people can think there’s such things as sacred ordinances that only operate one way. How hateful of them.

    there’s a lot we just don’t know

    Actually, we do know an awful lot, including “the rate of divorce will be identical or higher” and “the incidence of domestic abuse is just as bad or worse”. BUT YOU KNOW IT’S COOL, WE HAVEN’T STUDIED THIS KIND OF RELATIONSHIP THAT LONG. Clearly that’s a sign we should.

    Seriously, can we get the FDA signed up on this kind of logic? It makes more sense with the release of potentially life-saving drugs that might also end up killing peop–

    …oh. wait.

  198. Holy shit, it’s not like we could just, I dunno, campaign for parity in civil unions, is it.

    name a single republican of any note what has invested any energy whatsoever in a campaign for parity in civil unions

    if you look carefully in fact you’ll actually find that the Team R platform coward McCain ran on expressly took a big holy shit on civil unions:

    Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it.

    Team R dropped the ball on civil unions in a big way and they have no one to blame but their own bigotry cowardice and ridiculous fealty to antiquated religious dogma.

  199. marriage and civil unions don’t have much to do with each other.

  200. yes I think we agree on that Mr. Ernst

  201. I don’t see what GOP support has to do with the acceptability of going the civil union route in order to reap the benefits of what the government has bestowed upon heterosexual marriages.

    And come to think of it I’m not sure why Jesus would be brought up in what is in essence a secular argument centered upon the definition of the word marriage. It’s like the people of other faiths don’t have a say in the matter.

    But i do understand the sense of urgency for some advocates of gay marriage and that is if Romney is elected and if he rights the ship the pendulum will have swung strongly to the right and the socons will come a calling looking for their vigorish.

  202. Romney is a known unknown Mr. BT

  203. Thanks, Ernst. One can never have too much Orwell, that’s for sure.

    Any ideas on general histories? I have Hugh Thomas’ 1961 and 1975 editions, but am looking for something more recent.

  204. He certainly is not a blank slate upon which we cast our hopes.

    He has a track record.

    You know he bullied a presumably gay student back in 65.

  205. no he’s pretty much a blank slate upon which I cast my hope Mr. BT

    but mostly I hope his election is perceived as a repudiation of Obama’s economy-raping viciousness

  206. That’s what he is running on.

  207. You know the reason why the GOP is not strongly campaign for civil unions?

    Because, much like the people who could make the best use of them, they’re already here. They’re a non-issue. And any attempt to point and go “hey, you have essentially identical benefits already, what gives?” is met with people like you, hf, screaming that it’s not exactly equivalent. (Wait, what? You mean that the people campaigning for marriage-between-a-man-and-woman-only don’t want something JUST LIKE IT enacted? GOOD THING CIVIL UNIONS AREN’T EQUIVALENT.)

    A fantastic In-n-Out hamburger is certainly not equivalent to a Wagyu ribeye with all the fixings, but both are still delicious and get me fed. We may not call domestic partnerships marriage but they still result in all the benefits thereof.

  208. yes I’m so far much more pleased with this Mr. Governor Romney than I ever anticipated

    I don’t expect miracles from him – incremental economic improvements is all I hope for – an explicit acknowledging of the beneficence what ensues when economic freedom is enhanced would be gravy

    and if he paid mere lip service to goofy so-cons that would be really neat too

    but mostly I’m hoping for incremental economic improvements is all

  209. In-n-Out is so over-rated – Five Guys is way better and The Habit is better than both of them I think

    and The Counter is tasty too but mostly it’s useful if you want to do the carb-free burger bowl thing

  210. Any ideas on general histories?

    Sorry. Outside of my baliwick by about, oh, eight or nine centuries I’d say. At least.

    Now, if you’re ever interested in Visgothic Spain, I probably have a title or three.

  211. I certainly hope his election inspires confidence in wall street and on main street so we can get back to the business of america which is business.

  212. We may not call domestic partnerships marriage but they still result in all the benefits thereof.

    I’m not sure that’s true and it makes me wonder if it is true then why don’t we just call domestic partnerships marriage and go have tasty pancakes, providing we’ve finished our laundry.

  213. here’s hoping Mr. BT

  214. I’m not sure that’s true and it makes me wonder if it is true then why don’t we just call domestic partnerships marriage and go have tasty pancakes, providing we’ve finished our laundry.

    Because they’re not marriage. Marriage is not “any alliance between two consenting adults for mutual benefit (and possible sexual favors)”. It’s not even “any alliance between two consenting adults–who love each other!–for mutual benefit (and possible sexual favors)”. It’s “an alliance between two consenting adults of opposite biological sexes,” with a bunch of caveats about maximum genetic similarity, exact ages involved, and so on.

    Heck, there’s even advocates of gay rights who specifically REJECT the word “marriage” because it implies that the Heterosexual Ideal of Monogamous Love is the one to aspire to, i.e., the dreaded specter of heteronormativity, whereas gay relationships often value fluidity and non-exclusion.

    But then I’m getting the feeling I’ve actually studied this in way more detail than you have, so whatevs.

  215. Also, soft eugenics is always wrong, period, no matter what method we’re using to ensure it. I’m not saying that means outlawing sex selection or other technology, but killing the undesirables (or sterilizing them–did you know secular Team D advocates of WYMYNS and MINORITIES were totally down with sterilizing all the stupid people in the 1930s?) is, y’know, kind of hideously immoral.

    Unfortunately one can’t embrace SCIENCE-MANDATED PROGRESS(!!!!) without also taking eugenics on-board in a totally problematic fashion.

  216. you seem incredibly ignorant that gay marriage is an extant thing what exists in several states and foreign countries including canada, which isn’t particularly foreign really

    so, ergo, what marriage is, when gay people get married, is something we can look at and poke with a stick and make some descriptive observations about, and I must say your observations do not accord with what we see in the field

  217. so, ergo, what marriage is, when gay people get married, is something we can look at and poke with a stick and make some descriptive observations about, and I must say your observations do not accord with what we see in the field

    Which ones?

    The ones about violence and divorce being identical or higher? Here’s some statistics on violence. Here’s one on divorce rates. Keep in mind that’s exclusively in the United States, where gay couples are only just getting the chance to formalize themselves as “married”.

    Here’s more on the divorce rate. Apparently it’s both higher AND lower than that of opposite-sex couples, depending on where you look, and it causes ridiculous legal hurdles in divorce court. Or maybe it hasn’t been legal long enough for us to come to those kinds of conclusions! Gee, guys, decide whether or not there’s been a ground-breaking study about it.

    And here’s one of the most prominent sites of a gay person AGAINST gay marriage: Take it or leave it. Why, there’s even been an article in Salon about exactly this issue–the threat gay marriage poses to the gay identity. (Weirdly, it seems to have vanished into the ether. I WONDER WHY.)

  218. And now I wait for my link-heavy comment to get past the spam filters.

    Tl;dr version: No, actually, I’ve looked up all these assertions, hf. You’re the one who seems to be living in Cloudcuckooland over how we’re denying people a beautiful, necessary thing.

    Have fun arguing with these guys about it.

  219. it has nothing to do with gay marriage being a beautiful necessary thing

    it has to do with there being no reason not to extend marriage to gay people, and it has to do with there being a proven demand for it, which we have seen in places where it’s been introduced

    and it has to do with letting people live how they want to live – in a free country people should be free to marry their partner, and nobody should be free to tell them they can’t

    in some instances it may be beautiful, in some instances it may be necessary, in some instances it may be beautiful and necessary, in some instances it may be unsightly and odd, and et cetera

    but what we have is free people making a decision to marry or not marry for a multitude of different reasons and calculations, just like traditional marriage

    gay people what don’t want to get gay married are certainly free to not get married, just like not-gay people

    the parallels are many, really

    big nanny R may not like it, but the thing is, beyond rank appeals to bigotry, they’re wholly inept at articulating why gay marriage is super doubleplus bad, and I don’t think President Hugh Beaumont is gonna move that ball even a yard down field

  220. it has to do with there being no reason not to extend marriage to gay people, and it has to do with there being a proven demand for it, which we have seen in places where it’s been introduced

    Except all the reasons put forth for why not, that is, which you and other advocates of the practice have decided simply don’t exist.

  221. Oh wait, I get it now. Agitation for gay marriage gets in the way of agitating for more welfare, universal health care, and all those other demons. Are you stealthily torpedoing those by supporting gay marriage in the hopes people will settle down and shut up, as this blog implies?

  222. the trendline of rapid acceptance of gay marriage suggests that the “reasons put forth why not” are largely uncompelling

    they don’t exactly form much of a firewall do they

    I think it’s cause these arguments are rooted in bigotry and fear-mongering, and these appeals don’t really resonate with Americans what aspire to be people what are tolerant and open, which are a rather large percentage of the total, and a particularly large percentage of young people

  223. Ric Locke wrote a long time ago about laws like this. On the face of it, I agree with them. I think abortion is horribly barbaric and I wish people would stop doing it.

    However, as Ric pointed out (I’m paraphrasing from memory, so please blame all errors on me), to actually enforce such laws, or laws against abortion in general, would require incredibly draconian tactics that would completely violate the liberty of women. Such laws are essentially unworkable in a free society.

    And if you don’t intend to enforce the laws equally, then what do you plan to do? Will you create yet more laws that will be enforced arbitrarily? I submit that arbitrarily-enforced laws are legion already and need to be done away with because they are a cudgel to be used against political enemies, and are not in the best interests of liberty.

    So, I consider myself strongly pro-life, but I am not in favor of making abortion illegal. I would like it set up so that I don’t have to pay for them through my taxes, and I think persuading people via argument is a sound approach, but otherwise, I would leave it alone.

  224. but what about the powerful symbolism of enacting essentially unworkable laws

  225. the trendline of rapid acceptance of gay marriage suggests that the “reasons put forth why not” are largely uncompelling

    What trendline of rapid acceptance?

    The one where judicial activism is getting gay marriage enshrined as acceptable over the protests of the majority? I’ll agree–that does make the arguments difficult to put forth, because Someone In Government is just going to force the legislation through whether or not people want it.

    Or the one where every media outlet is pimping for it as being something “everyone is okay with”? Here’s a nice breakdown of that.

    But since you are an uncritical acceptor of received wisdom from wherever you get it, I don’t think you’ll read it.

  226. And with that I’mma declare myself actually done with this thread. Peace out.

  227. The growing support for same-sex marriage tracks growing ignorance about the prevalence of homosexuality. That is, the figures from Gallup indicate that the demographic groups most supportive of gay marriage also register the most erroneous estimations of homosexuality.

    whaaa? correlation is not causation Pellegri – this nobody psychologist fails to show that there’s any relation between willingness to support gay marriage and the perception of the prevalence of homosexuality – what he found out is that young people are more tolerant plus they also tend to think there are more gay people than studies show is the case

    most supportive of gay marriage is a very un-sciencey relative statement, you see

    what the careful reader will note is that the relatively greater gay tolerance of young people is just as likely to be because young people encounter more gay people than codgers do as it is cause they watch too much tv – note that he also utterly fails to show that the media is driving people’s perception of homosexual prevalence

    let’s look at this statement again…

    That is, the figures from Gallup indicate that the demographic groups most supportive of gay marriage also register the most erroneous estimations of homosexuality.

    well ok to test this hypothesis let’s recall that what we know is that black people watch tv like it’s going out of stock, yet, curiously, they are among the least supportive demographics of gay marriage

    this whole article is poorly reasoned crap I think – I’m a give you a pass on this one based on my past readings of your comments

  228. Abe Froman says June 1, 2012 at 11:05 am
    It’ll be a fun day for pikachus everywhere when the homo gene is found and peoples don’t want no gay assed babies.

    Yellow caricatures everywhere will be up in arms about that prospect when it presents itself.

  229. Abe Froman says June 1, 2012 at 10:52 am
    It’s too bad we can’t put images in comments. An animated gif of an anvil landing on a pikachu would save my weary hands from so much typing.

    If you have a bit of patience try this. While not animated it might still be satisfying.

  230. and it has to do with letting people live how they want to live – in a free country people should be free to marry their partner, and nobody should be free to tell them they can’t.

    Partners. And sister. And dog. And anyone should be able to get an abortion, including me.

  231. Ernst:

    Visigothic Spain? Actually, a good introductory title would be cool.

    I have something similar–an inordinate fascination with Byzantium. The Much Better Half has been extremely indulgent of that hobby.

    “At least it’s not gambling or strippers.”

  232. I think it’s cause these arguments are rooted in bigotry and fear-mongering,

    No you don’t. You just believe that characterizing opposing arguments that way is a rhetorical cudgel built on the very same shame reflex that ultimately gave us Obama.

    The only bigotry and fearmongering comes from your side: accept what we want — screw your tradition, or thousands of years of practice meant to protect the family unit — or you’re a square hoochie cumslut lifeydoodle hater bigot (or square hickish gunfetishizing homophobe hater bigot) what is bigoted and hateful, and probably a Christer biblehumping moose felcher who listens to classic rock stations and says “git-r-done” unironically.

    You should really concentrate on taking that message where it might actually sell. People here are way too smart to allow themselves to be shamed by a squeaky apparatchik who uses his positions on particular social issues as a status badge.

  233. in a free country … nobody should be free

    The idiot chipmunk is unclear on the concept of “free.”

  234. Another look at what Pellegri linked above at 1:55 am.

    The Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a gay and lesbian think tank, released a study in April 2011 estimating based on its research that just 1.7 percent of Americans between 18 and 44 identify as gay or lesbian, while another 1.8 percent — predominantly women — identify as bisexual. Far from underestimating the ranks of gay people because of homophobia, these figures included a substantial number of people who remained deeply closeted, such as a quarter of the bisexuals. A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey of women between 22 and 44 that questioned more than 13,500 respondents between 2006 and 2008 found very similar numbers: Only 1 percent of the women identified themselves as gay, while 4 percent identified as bisexual.

    And yet.

    In surveys conducted in 2002 and 2011, pollsters at Gallup found that members of the American public massively overestimated how many people are gay or lesbian. In 2002, a quarter of those surveyed guessed upwards of a quarter of Americans were gay or lesbian (or “homosexual,” the third option given). By 2011, that misperception had only grown, with more than a third of those surveyed now guessing that more than 25 percent of Americans are gay or lesbian. Women and young adults were most likely to provide high estimates, approximating that 30 percent of the population is gay. Overall, “U.S. adults, on average, estimate that 25 percent of Americans are gay or lesbian,” Gallup found. Only 4 percent of all those surveyed in 2011 and about 8 percent of those surveyed in 2002 correctly guessed that fewer than 5 percent of Americans identify as gay or lesbian.

  235. t has to do with there being no reason not to extend marriage to gay people,

    Or … since the only “rationale” that is offered is because who is anyone to deny a person the “right” to marry someone they LOVE!!1!1!, then there is no reason not to extend marriage to groups of people, even people who are already married to others and who already have blood family relationships.

    I mean, “marriage” means anything anyone wants to define it as on any given time and depending on the content of ones stomach.

  236. letting people live how they want to live

    Who is telling gay people they cannot LIVE with whoever they want? No one is banning gay relationships or anything they want to do.

    Marriage is a public institution that is Government sponsored analogous to the military. Every one has the right to join, but not everyone will qualify to join. And members that do qualify to join receive certain benefits as befits the contributions they give to all of society because they are part of that public institution.

  237. geoff, that explains why television programs are nearly unwatchable and the subsequent boom in “good ole boy” programming, I suppose. Every time I get invested in a show, they introduce a homosexual sub-plot which encroaches on the narrative arc, changing the entire trajectory of the show. It’s aggravating, it is.

  238. I was never invested in this one thankfully.

    This seems more in tune with me. Hopefully it stays that way.

  239. None of this homo talk (which is pretty gay) has anything to do with the tragic loss of life of female fetuses simply because they are female. Someone said it here or on another thread about the same topic: it truly shows the misogyny of the left. Especially when they trot out various and sundry already born women to insist that there is nothing wrong with killing baby girls in the womb–Dammit! It’s perfectly legitimate and any thinking person would do exactly the same thing when faced with the prospect of not having what they wanted, they say. “I’ve conceived a girl/a handicaped child/twins and that’s just not in my plans, so I’ll change it.”

    How selfish. How ghoulish.

  240. you seem incredibly ignorant that gay marriage is an extant thing what exists in several states and foreign countries

    Yes it does, ‘feets, and it turns out that the divorce rate is higher among gays than straights in Sweden, where you can’t exactly go around blaming biggits for the problem.

    And furthermore, lesbians have the highest divorce rate of all. That surprise you? Surprises me, because I thought wimmins would be the most stable but turns out wimmins are just the hardest to please in these relationship things.

    Even when they don’t have to deal with an uncivilized male.

  241. What’s more, I’d wager that feets is dead against letting blind people drive cars.

    On account of him h8ing them blind folks sumthin’ awful, because don’t blind people need to get around town? Don’t they have the physical ability to make a car go? Aren’t they smart enough or good enough to drive a car?

    Only a biggit would fixate on the eye thing, which isn’t even their fault. God made them that way for a reason, and who are we to say different?

    But no, feets keeps harping on about how Jesus went around healing the blind, which he thinks is an iron-clad statement against blindness.

  242. google is making a car for blind people dicentra

    you can’t fight the future

  243. here you go

  244. ohnoes they’re changing teh sacred definition of driving

  245. That self-driving car also steals passwords off your wireless LAN, so I can’t support it.

  246. In places where gay marriage has been legalized, only a small portion of the gay population takes advantage.

    So the demand for it has less to do with hordes of peeps wanting to get married and lots to do with changing the culture, especially if it gives peeps Yet Another Cudgel to beat back the evil Christers.

  247. That self-driving car also steals passwords off your wireless LAN, so I can’t support it.

    this is an argument rooted in fear-mongering I say

  248. In places where gay marriage has been legalized, only a small portion of the gay population takes advantage.

    sure. and this is what we call a baseline

  249. Oh, and about getting rid of those awful bourgeois institutions of marriage and family and monogamy and heteronormativity, which is what the sexual revolution was supposed to get rid of and in helped along greatly.

    Because the family and the church are the primary bulwarks against the State, and so the statists must of necessity wipe them off the face of the planet.

    So it’s really dumb to be all staunch against the statisms and also gung-ho for the project to get rid of the very thing that stops statism in its tracks.

  250. this is an argument rooted in fear-mongering I say

    If Google makes it, it steals your data.

    Are you new on this planet?

  251. I’m tired of the war on women.

    What about the war on cross eyed midgets…er…I mean um…The Kinetic Military Action against Little People with Strabismus ?

  252. For an analogy, I think gay marriage is like soccer. It’s very big in Europe and apparently the kids like it.

    But, it’s really sorta boring.

  253. soccer also has a huge identity politics angle

  254. “Abe Froman says June 1, 2012 at 2:50 pm
    I’m just more to the point than you are happy. We sort of have to infer that you hate coherence, consistent rationality, women and Godly people from your vomitous musings.”

    He’s kind of down on paying for the continued production of defective Christers by poor people too, as I recall. Which is a HUGE problem. Certainly a far hugerer problem than the abortination of all the girly babies and letting gayers getting hitched for reals all across our great failtopia.

  255. Gay marriage is like soccer because soccer is gay.

  256. Evil Catholics sing about why we are the awesome.

  257. He’s kind of down on paying for the continued production of defective Christers by poor people too, as I recall.

    That’s not correct.

    leigh made the point that gay people should be penalized cause they might get sick and need healthcares from doing the gay. So I said well sure then we should penalize other high-risk behaviors like having babies after 40. Ultimately we all agreed that probably we don’t want to go down the penalizing road.

  258. One ought to predict the War on Women will surely be won by women, being as they’re too gassy to suffer defeat.

    The alternative Warm on Women, on the other hand, will most likely be won by the Sun, ol’ Sol, being by far the bigger longest lasting gasbag in the neighborhood.

  259. Gay marriage is like soccer because soccer is gay.

    Beat me to it, Abe.

  260. Here’s a twist on the off topic that I’d like people to remember I’m asking, not ‘feets.

    I certainly think the breakdown of the family is a significant problem but I don’t see what gay activists have to do with it.

    If I had to list the things that have increased out of wedlock births and divorces and decreased overall marriage rates it’d be more like 1) increase in women’s legal equality, 2) no fault divorce, 3) women’s entry into the workplace, 4) birth control, 5) welfare and food stamps taking the role of a man’s paycheck, 6) decrease in social stigma, and 7) adults caring about personal fulfillment before children’s needs. (I’m not placing any real emphasis on the order or saying that all those things above are bad.)

    All that happened before anyone ever got gay married and most of it happened before all those zany gay people landed TV gigs.

  261. leigh made the point that gay people should be penalized cause they might get sick and need healthcares from doing the gay.

    Yes, I did. Defective babies can be born to women of any age, happy, not just those over forty. As I told you just the other day, one my son’s friends (she is 22) just gave birth to a son with Down Syndrome. Indeed, women over 40 are not necessarily more likely to have children who are disproportionately handicapped. Nor are the women themselves more prone to the ills of pregnancy such as pre-eclampsia, gestational diabetes and the like.

    That said, persons who have many sexual partners and engage in risky sexual behaviors are playing Russian Roulette. Many gays are also heavy drinkers and users of illegal drugs, as well. Any way you slice it, they are at risk for being a drag on public healthcare funds and hogging up hospice space, too.

  262. tag fail.

  263. ohnoes they’re changing teh sacred definition of driving

    To drive one must actively be a driver.

    In a “self-driving” car, the blind person is only a passenger.

    We don’t call taxi-cab passengers “drivers” when it is they that direct where the taxi goes.

  264. Defective babies can be born to women of any age, happy, not just those over forty.

    Babies born to over-40 women like Cohen are not only more likely to be born early but also more likely to have birth defects. One Columbia University study found that 2.9% of women older than 40 have babies with birth defects, compared with 1.7% of all women younger than 35. Of these, cardiac issues are the most common: Another study found that heart defects were four times more common in infants of women over 40, compared with those age 20 to 24.

    “It could have something to do with egg quality or with the fact that older women may have undiagnosed and untreated diabetes or hypertension, which could affect growth and contribute to birth defects,” explains Randy Fink, MD, a high-risk OB-GYN in Miami.

    ***

    Does the risk of Down syndrome increase with the mother’s age?

    Yes. The risk of Down syndrome increases with the mother’s age:

    At age 25, the risk of having a baby with Down syndrome is 1 in 1,250.
    At age 30, the risk is 1 in 1,000.
    At age 35, the risk is 1 in 400.
    At age 40, the risk is 1 in 100.
    At age 45, the risk is 1 in 30.

  265. Gay marriage is like soccer because soccer is gay.

    How did I miss this?

    Heh.

  266. Nor are the women themselves more prone to the ills of pregnancy such as pre-eclampsia

    While the incidence of preeclampsia among all moms-to-be is 3 to 4%, that risk increases to 5 to 10% if you’re older than 40 and jumps up to 35% if you’re past 50.

  267. Lauren B. Cohen, a New Jersey lawyer who is the second oldest woman in the United States to give birth to twins, at age 59…

    This woman is an outlier and obviously used IVF to conceive her twins. The women that I know who are over forty who have given birth to healthy children are many and also have not used extraordinary measures to conceive. They have also had more than one child after the age of forty. The only women I have known who had children with Down Syndrome were under the age of thirty, in fact, under twenty-five. Of course, this is anecdotal so take it for what it’s worth, which is my two cents.

  268. Address my stats about gay men and disease, happy. For the fairness.

  269. Gay men don’t spew out defective Christers though…

  270. True dat.

    Pregnant women over forty are more likely to have deep pockets and private health insurance and so are not expecting the general public to pick up the tab if they do indeed produce defective childrens.

  271. you didn’t bring stats leigh you brought assertions that gay people will overwhelm hospices

    but did you see that both geoff and pellegri have made the point that gay people are actually an infinitesimal minority what make up about the same percentage of the population as Elizabeth Warren’s tribemen

    and to add another twist, dicentra also makes the point that “in places where gay marriage has been legalized, only a small portion of the gay population takes advantage.”

    So the number of people what are going to get gay married are a fraction of a sliver.

    And yet in the same breath dicentra suggests that this fraction of a sliver stands to succeed in “getting rid of those awful bourgeois institutions of marriage and family and monogamy.”

    Which, yeah, strikes me as an argument based in fear-mongering.

  272. What a weird tangent.

  273. good point Mr. Abe we should revisit the comment at 12:46 and get back on track here…

    ****

    Here’s a twist on the off topic that I’d like people to remember I’m asking, not ‘feets.

    I certainly think the breakdown of the family is a significant problem but I don’t see what gay activists have to do with it.

    If I had to list the things that have increased out of wedlock births and divorces and decreased overall marriage rates it’d be more like 1) increase in women’s legal equality, 2) no fault divorce, 3) women’s entry into the workplace, 4) birth control, 5) welfare and food stamps taking the role of a man’s paycheck, 6) decrease in social stigma, and 7) adults caring about personal fulfillment before children’s needs. (I’m not placing any real emphasis on the order or saying that all those things above are bad.)

    All that happened before anyone ever got gay married and most of it happened before all those zany gay people landed TV gigs.

  274. I also brought assertions about pregnant women and that didn’t stop you from hotly googling to tell me how wrong, wrong, wrong I am.

    I’ll further assert that the percentages of women over forty bearing children and sucking down public healthcare dollars is smaller than the amount of disease-ridden gay men being sicker than sick and requiring endless expensive and some times experimental healthcare to keep their sick selves alive for another day or week or month as the Eternal Footman holds their coats and snickers.

    Getting gay “married” isn’t going to change the fact that gay men are whores who get it on with complete strangers at the drop of a hat. Or trou.

  275. I’d say the way gay marriage has become a problem larger than it should be is because of the way it’s being implemented.

    Rather than being mature Burkeans and getting some civil unions on while waiting for slower state by state acceptance through the legislature or plebiscites (the American way, we’ll call this) they’ve decided they’ll go through the courts.

    And when they can’t go through the state courts, they’ll try and take it national to overturn state amendments by pretending there’s some heretofore unknown Constitutional right.

    This is double plus ungood.

  276. This is double plus ungood.

    Very.

  277. they’ve decided they’ll go through the courts.

    rather than going through the legislature or plebiscites the Catholic church has decided to go through the courts to find an activist judge willing to overturn the orders of a duly elected presidential administration with respect to some hangup or another they have about rubbers

    I’m cool with that

  278. Getting gay “married” isn’t going to change the fact that gay men are whores who get it on with complete strangers at the drop of a hat. Or trou.

    That culture was spawned out of necessity, really. At least now it isn’t all married men slipping away from their wives so they can get their knob polished by an anonymous dude in Central Park at night.

  279. You don’t even believe that argument so why should I pretend you do?

    You really think all court cases are of equal merit and so it’s either all good or all bad?

    No, you don’t. Don’t waste time like this.

  280. That culture was spawned out of necessity, really.

    Back in the day, sure. Let’s pay it forward 40 years and it’s still there. But, I don’t need to tell you that since you live in NYC, so I won’t.

  281. Mr. bh I think America has a long and impressive history in which we can see her people going through our court system to secure civil and human rights and to correct various other injustices what arise when majorities oppress minorities.

    It’s part and parcel of constitutional law.

    Let’s revisit your comment…

    Rather than being mature Burkeans and getting some civil unions on while waiting for slower state by state acceptance through the legislature or plebiscites (the American way, we’ll call this) they’ve decided they’ll go through the courts.

    Gay marriage was indeed secured through the legislature in california. Then a group of h8rs led primarily by the Mormon and Catholic churches, with the enthusiastic support of jews and black people, stripped this newly-won right away from a wee small infinitesimal minority by insisting on a majority vote.

    So, in turn, the wee small infinitesimal minority asked and was granted a judicial review of this whole dealio.

    That’s just how things work in America.

  282. Make a comment that takes the opposing viewpoint seriously and I’ll return the favor.

    Sorry, that one above simply isn’t worth responding to.

  283. Back in the day, sure. Let’s pay it forward 40 years and it’s still there. But, I don’t need to tell you that since you live in NYC, so I won’t.

    Is that how culture works? 40 years later, a lot of conservatives still sound like everyone did when faggotry was considered a mental illness.

  284. You misunderstand me, Abe. I’m saying gays haven’t changed their habits of having multiple sexual partners, many of whom are strangers and defend it as a “culture.”

  285. Catholics haven’t changed their habits of telling 14 year old rape victims don’t you dare ask your rapist to put on a condom you little slut. Seamless garment of life, bitch.

  286. Wait… It’s sunny outside? Mid 70s?

    Later, folks.

  287. I understood what you meant, Leigh. I just find that it isn’t a sound – or even logical – argument against gay marriage. Probably the aspect of this that I find most irritating is that both sides have equally weak arguments. I just have more sympathy for people who have all of human history on their side than people who bring absolutely nothing to the table but irrationality, hatred, propaganda and stupid arguments. Happyfeet would be the poster boy for that.

  288. I’d say heterosexuals are moving towards hooking up as the mainstream option. Is that culturally necessary? If so does that make it less of a problem?

  289. here actually this (#36) suggests the wee small catholic girl could indeed ask her rapist to wear a condom, it’s just one of them has to buy it out-of-pocket cause under no circumstances should insurance pay for rape-defense condoms

    Compassionate and understanding care should be given to a person who is the victim of sexual assault. Health care providers should cooperate with law enforcement officials and offer the person psychological and spiritual support as well as accurate medical information. A female who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault. If, after appropriate testing, there is no evidence that conception has occurred already, she may be treated with medications that would prevent ovulation, sperm capacitation, or fertilization. It is not permissible, however, to initiate or to recommend treatments that have as their purpose or direct effect the removal, destruction, or interference with the implantation of a fertilized ovum.

  290. I just find that it isn’t a sound – or even logical – argument

    Gotcha. I wasn’t making an argument re the benefits or deficits of gay marriage, but more to the point that married or not, the “culture” marches on and while it’s marching costs us all a pretty penny. I wanted to talk about the war on wimmin and viola! like clockwork, happy changes the subject to gay marriage, a subject that I am oh so tired of talking about here.

    Nailing jello to the wall would probably be easier than trying to get happy to stick to the point.

  291. I already talked about the war on women leigh I did a lot of commentings about that

    it’s kind of a rehash at this point

    I think it’s a non-solution to a non-problem, and that it’s a stupid issue at a stupid time, coming right as Mr. Governor Romney was trying to have a spirited conversation about Obama’s public equity disasters as typified by Solundra

  292. yndra

  293. Cheap shots and non-sequitors are loser approaches.

    happyfeet says June 1, 2012 at 10:17 pm
    i just make the comments Mr. Danger I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds

    Of course; if insulting others is your goal, you’re on track for a gold medal.

  294. Mr. danger you don’t think there’s something deeply disturbing about a religion what tells a girl the only time she can ask someone to wear a condom is if she’s being raped?

    I think it’s very troubling.

    We should hold a vote about this.

  295. So bring up the shitty state of the economy then, happy. Be honest about it and stop taking cheap shots at Christians, and especially Catholics.

    You have a mean streak, my friend. One day you’ll be an old man. All alone with your latest turtles in a bowl and nothing else if you don’t stop it.

  296. you kinda have a mean mean streak as well but please forgive my insouciant rudeness leigh I think I went a wee bit too far this time

  297. Yes, I do have a mean streak. And you are forgiven.

  298. thank you leigh

    I’m troubled though by this idea that it’s Right and Proper for the majority to vote on the rights of a minority. And I don’t understand why judicial remedies are scorned in these matters. I can understand how this might be a bit frustrating. But it’s all part and parcel of the same system of checks and balances.

    also it’s always gonna be the same turtles these red sliders can live 50-70 years but someday i hope to just have a place where i can put in a pond for them but I’ll have to build it to where there’s no mud on the bottom to where they can hibernate and if necessary then I’ll also need to be able to heat the water, depending on where I’m living at the time

    the sum total of turtles what hibernate each year never equals the sum total of turtles what come out of hibernation is my understanding

  299. Well, I see hf is getting his mackerel snapper hate on … why we have our own little Plutarco Elías Calles here …

  300. HappyCalles still insists that marriage is a “right” but the 1st amendment right of the Catholic church to remain, you know, Catholic doesn’t exist.

  301. I have a box turtle that lives in my vegetable garden. He’s about the size of a hand grenade and eats a lot of pesky bugs and basks in the sun during the day. I only see him two or three times a summer when he’s munching on some plants. I don’t know where he goes in the winter or if it’s even the same turtle.

    Last night I heard birds cheeping in the house and tried to track down where the sound was coming from. It turned out that I had fledgling chimney swifts in the firebox of the fireplace. They must have tumbled out of the nest and down the chimney. I opened the fireplace doors to see if they were where I could reach them and three birds exploded out of the fireplace and fly around the living room and up two flew up the stairs. I managed to catch them all in a towel and set them free before the dogs caught on that there were scared birds in the house.

  302. No Darleen I fully support the Catholic church’s petitioning of the courts and I hope they get the relief they seek. I just fear if they get the relief they seek they’ll go back to playing the role of dutiful cheerleaders for the fascist monstrosity of obamacare.

  303. So dems in Massachusetts are down with having another pathological liar as a Senator? I guess it’s tradition after all those years with Ted.

  304. box turtles are awesome pets but a little more high maintenance than sliders here’s is a wonderful picture of those giant tortoises from the galapagos

  305. i wonder if giant tortoises are social at all

    i bet not that’s probably just part of an enclosure for them

  306. but yes Darleen i insist that marriage is a right

    a right what transcends the purviews of individual states

    but that’s a relatively new thing for me

    I evolved!

  307. marriage can’t be a right, definitionally, hf

    not unless you are rapey-raping the language

    obviously you’re missing the main point of our host

    you’ve evolved into a left-emo

  308. You guys ever think about planking some trout with shallots and cilantro but then hesitated because it sounds kinda faddishly southwestern and something Bobby Flay might approve of?

    I’m asking for a friend.

  309. bh

    actually it sounds more like Alton Brown and absolutely delicious!

  310. that is very sensible Mr. bh what you can also do is use your juicer to juice an orange and a lime and take a bit of the juice of each and add a splash of cream for a tasty drizzle

  311. It sounds good to me, bh. I love Bobby Flay and despise Alton Brown, so I’ll go with your analogy.

  312. no Darleen you are wrong marriage is a right

    you’ll see someday and then there will be peace and hugs and cake

  313. Thanks.

    Wait, I mean I’ll pass this along to my friend.

  314. If marriage is a right, then I want the state to provide me with a wife.

    Because it’s my right.

  315. I used to eat at Bobby Flay’s Mesa Grill a couple times a week until he went Hollywood and the food started to suffer. Most of the Food Network people are hacks, but before his food was widely imitated, Flay was a fricken revolutionary.

  316. cranky,

    why stop with one? ‘rights’ can’t be limited by an arbitrary number.

  317. careful what you ask for Mr. cranky

  318. leigh

    we are going to have to agree to disagree on Alton Brown. I’ve picked up tons of great cooking methods from him. Including a 2 hour cider vinegar brine for pork chops that elevates those humble (and often tough) bits of pig.

  319. Since I don’t agree that marriage is a right, I have no worries.

  320. Anything that requires someone else to participate or provide a portion of their life (as income or whatever) is not a right.

  321. it is indeed a right for gay people to marry each other Mr. cranky I’m sorry you had to find out this way but at least you got to find out how to make tasty pork chops

  322. Assertion monkey asserts. Assert, assertion monkey, assert.

  323. I’m asserting like a banshee already Mr. cranky! Rights that aren’t asserted are lost, you see.

  324. maybe HappyCalles can tell us where they same-sex rights to marriage existed in history before they were stripped away by nasty Jews & Christians

  325. rights don’t all have to have slithered out of the primordial ooze it simply follows that as a society evolves to value the contributions of the gay people in that society they’ll actualize that valuation by treating gay people like equals

    gay people couldn’t have rights back in the day because it was society’s policy to treat them like shit

    that’s not how America really rolls anymore, not even in Mississippi

    we’ve seen this evolution happen in several countries and states already, to no discernible ill-effect I might add

  326. “You guys ever think about planking some trout with shallots and cilantro but then hesitated because it sounds kinda faddishly southwestern and something Bobby Flay might approve of?”

    Trout’s kind of bony. I usually prefer flounder, cod, tuna, or shark (the pork of the sea). Or shrimp but that’s more like a bug than a fish.

  327. Trout worked out pretty well. And I did add a citrusy vinaigrette element to the salad.

    I work with what you can get halfway between the coasts, palaeo. On the plus side, I can catch fish here between comments. Literally.

    Is this so, Abe? Other people have said good things to me but I never felt the desire to check him out. Which is well enough, I guess, because I probably would have been too late apparently.

  328. We are going to have to agree to disagree on Alton Brown.

    That’s okay. I like Ina Garten and she drives a lot of people crazy.

    My problem with Alton is that he is often wrong while presenting himself as a cooking Bill Nye the Science Guy. For instance, his episode about home-brewing (something I know little about, but made a home-brewer I know go berserk) is full of misinformation.

    Bobby Flay is a wise-ass Irishman and native New Yorker who is a whiz kid in the kitchen. Plus he’s cute for a redhead.

  329. good lord HappyCalles, you’re so invested in making a contract a “right” you ignore “inherent rights” and make risible historical claims about “gays”.

    “Gay” is an entirely modern concept. Even as homosexual behavior was both accepted and celebrated in historical Greek & Roman societies, if you were to try to present the idea to them of “gay orientation” they wouldn’t have a clue to what you were talking about.

    And even in those societies, there was never, ever ever any same-sex marriage.

    #fail

  330. I might be that very home brewer, leigh. He really did say some silly things in that segment.

    On the other hand, brewing beer is its own thing entirely and my little sister has handed me some very, very tasty food she says she’s gotten from him.

  331. There was a brisket, for instance. It was outstanding brisket.

  332. I might be that very home brewer

    Heh. I actually thought of you when I was typing that. The home brewer in my comment lives in Las Vegas and he was all “Dude! WTF!!?!!”

    I have made his cinnamon rolls a few times and they are the best, like home-made Cinnabon. I make them about once a year since I love sweets and I don’t want to be as big as a barn.

  333. “Gay” is an entirely modern concept.

    As such it is long past obsolete. I nominate “faaaaabulbous!!!!!” as a replacement.

  334. By the way, I think people should use more historical references. Plutarco Elías Calles? I now know who that is.

    It’s a nice thing we have going at pw.

  335. I’m bookmarking this thread for my oldest daughter. It’s essential for her to understand what people who claim to be big on tolerance really think of her faith in general, and determined Catholic women in particular.

  336. HappyAzana works, too. Manuel Azana said some similarly pikachuish things about RCs before Espana blew up.

  337. Note to self: google Manuel Azana.

  338. Dale, my youngest son and I often have conversations in the car as I am ferrying him to and from his various activities and many times they are about the challenges we face as people of faith.

    He just made his Confirmation last month and from reading and talking to his CCD teachers and our priest, he is much more capable of defending himself when people make cruel remarks. We are right in the middle of the Bible Belt (Oral Roberts University is in Tulsa) and many times the Baptist kids he goes to school with make remarks about his wearing a St. Christopher’s medal, making the sign of the cross when there are prayers said over meals and abstaining from meat on fridays during Lent. Only 13% of the population of Oklahoma is Catholic, so I tell him to look at it as a challenge.

    Read Ecclesiastes together for your Bible lesson when you are studying the OT, if you haven’t already. Fortunately, we have a very involved parish with a lot of kids his age and younger. He has allies at school in some of them. He is has a strong personality without being overbearing and that has helped him gain the respect of others. That and he has a diverse set of friends since he’s an athlete as well as an honor student.

    Good luck!

  339. Final thoughts, hf, since you haven’t responded to my last two offers. By definition, “marriage” is the union of one man and one woman. The union of two homosexuals, male/male or female/female shall now be known as “garriage”. Garriage has each and every one of the rights given to marriage by society.
    Satisfied?

  340. Is this so, Abe? Other people have said good things to me but I never felt the desire to check him out. Which is well enough, I guess, because I probably would have been too late apparently.

    Nah. You’re probably just in time. In the 90’s it was a pain in the ass to find a lot of the ingredients he calls for in New York, but they’ve probably reached Wisconsin by now. This is one of his relatively easy grilling recipes that I really like.

  341. I watch Alton and sometimes find some useful tips. However I get more out of the Christopher Kimball show and the magazine Cooks Illustrated whose recipes I use and modify all the time.

  342. The point is to destroy our society, not to promote stable relationships. So, no, garriage is NOT an acceptable substitute for marriage.

  343. That’s what I thought, cranky. I just want to hear hf dissemble.

  344. I like Cook’s Illustrated, too. I have quit buying it though since they tend to repeat a lot of their recipes without a lot of new technique. I have their annuals for most of the 90s and refer to them quite a bit.

    I think it is Alton’s demeanor that just works on my nerves. He just doesn’t seem like a very likeable guy.

  345. but yes Darleen i insist that marriage is a right

    I insist that abortion is a right and I’m gonna go get me one!

  346. I never really thought of Alton Brown as a chef so much as a food nerd. Kind of their complete idiots guide to cooking guy, only, a little more esoteric and helpful than that.

  347. FOR FREEDOM!!!

  348. Alton is a mad kitchen scientist. Dude has crazy skills.

  349. He’s no Harold Magee. There’s a guy who knows everything. His book is a must have.

  350. I finally got my robot vacuum

  351. I think that’s smart how Romney is picking a running mate early they have a lot to do to get ready for the transition

  352. Alton entertains and that is all i really expect from the Food Network.

    As far as Flay goes, he entertains also, but i’m not a big fan of peppers in all my food choices.

  353. Bobby Flay is an Iron Chef.

  354. Yeah i know who he is.

  355. He uses peppers for depth of flavor more so than for heat, but he sure does use them a lot.

  356. Only comments using the letter “K” have been on topic.

  357. The show i like is Diners,Drive-Ins and Dives.

    Love those kind of restaurants.

  358. now for sure he is a bobby Mr. BT knows

  359. [bh note: wasn't intended to be posted as a comment so it was shit-canned.]

  360. oops. misfire. thought that was a chat window.

  361. Want me to delete it?

  362. yeah if you want.

  363. In case people missed it we just learned that BT killed Michael Jackson.

    Yes, it was shocking.

  364. lol

    must have been the bath salts

  365. That’s what I thought, cranky. I just want to hear hf dissemble.

    He ignores reasonable stuff like your proposal.

  366. anonymous (anononandon) wrote:

    My Next Job Interview…

    Conservative Business Person~ “So, Tell me about yourself..”
    Me ~”Are you a Republican?”
    Conservative Business Person~ “Yes.”
    Me ~ (Stand Up and Walk Out)

    Saturday, June 02, 2012 4:18:40 PM

  367. Sounds like a good interview. Win Win for everyone.

  368. those people don’t think shit through Mr. BT

  369. hmmm. someone’s moving up in the world

  370. Me ~ (Stand Up and Walk Out)

    the stupid just oozes out

  371. Is there a Society to Prevent Cruelty to Dead Horses?

    If there is, all y’all in some deep shit…

  372. yeah y’all

  373. What do you think BMoe? Should there be a rule about aborting a child when the motivating factor is the babies gender?

    It’s a thinker. It has the feel of a criminal act, and history has shown us there is a destabilizing effect on society and and the world at large when it becomes a widespread phenomenon, but yet there is a natural aversion to passing laws against anything but behavior (rather than, as in this case, motivation), and lawyers getting into damned intimate parts of peoples lives.

    Me, I find this bill to be small beans compared to California making abortion available to 13 year olds without their parents knowledge.

    happyfeet, should that become federal law, or remain a state issue? Remember, we’re talking “rights” here.

  374. making abortion available to kids without their parents’ consent is a stupid stupid thing to do if your goal is to maintain the access to abortion that we have in this country

    life isn’t fair and yes some of these kids will get the short end of the stick, but you can’t just up and do abortions on other people’s kids

  375. Sooo, there are limits. Good to know.

  376. I’ve never said there weren’t limits

    I’ve never said it’s not ok to have a reasonable number of weeks to get your abortion done – I think within the first trimester or so – with maybe a few exceptions for abnormalities and health issues what crop up after that and what have you

    also I’m a lot down with outlawing partial birth abortion

    I can’t think of anything else right now but I think I’m getting a cold

    which sucks cause of I’m supposed to go to jersey for all next week

  377. I have made my opinion on abortion clear before.

    Motivation doesn’t matter, what matters is how one defines a human being and when does a fetus become one. Before that abortion for any reason is a personal matter, after that it is murder.

  378. motivation matters a little you can’t have an abortion just cause you want to get out of going to your stupid company retreat in jersey

  379. is what they tell me

  380. B Moe, OK, I’m guessing then that we are indeed talking about a human being if the abortion is done because the baby is a girl, does that sound right?

    I mean, how can you describe a fetus with individual characteristics like gender, and not be describing a human being?

    I’m not breaking your balls, you’re just a likely fellow to actually have an intellectually honest discussion on the subject, instead of spewing circular logic, bald assertions, insults, and enough rabbit holes to drive anyone to distraction… what the happyfeet delivers.

  381. No way I’m letting bh beat me to this: A company retreat in New Jersey? Your company is gay and stupid and embarrassing and embarrassingstupidgay.

  382. Good times.

  383. yeah we’re feeling that too Mr. Abe

    apparently they really “tried” to book Montauk to mix it up but for whatever reason we have to do the jersey shore thing

    again

  384. don’t you remember that year I said we were gonna do the retreat in Lake Geneva and I was so excited

    but no at the last minute they made us go back to fucking jersey

    it’s cause the entire executive committee except for one lives there plus a lot of the monkeys

  385. What town do they have you staying in?

  386. it’s a new one this time… let me see if I can find out

  387. Long Branch

  388. green fees are NOT sponsored by the company; you have to pay for yourself

  389. Hahahahahahahaha!

  390. President Garfield was brought to Long Branch in the hope that the fresh air and quiet might aid his recovery after being shot on July 2, 1881, an incident that left the assassin’s bullet lodged in his spine. He died here on September 19, 1881, exactly two months before his 50th birthday.

  391. apparently Mr. Norman Mailer used to live there

    but he died

  392. Dorothy Parker was born there

    we went to the Algonquin once and I made everyone gawk at the cat

    which faggot Bloomberg has since banned I think

  393. oh. Bruce Springsteen was born there too.

    He sang several songs that were popular in the 80’s.

  394. oh. okeydoke

    After taking some heat from the city Health Department, the hotel has installed an electronic fence to keep Matilda away from areas where food is served.

    fuck me

  395. The Windmill has hot dogs what are tasty.

    Aside from that, I’m kind of befuddled as to why any douchebag company would force people to fly across the country for to visit a place that is kind of run down and making feeble attempts at putting lipstick on its pigness. It borders on evil to do that to people.

    The town North of it – Red Bank – is kind of cool. As long as you can get past the fact that Bon Jovi has a “pay what you want to” restaurant there and the bloated fag Kevin Smith has a comic book store and his production company orafices.

    A couple of towns South is Asbury Park, which is kind of a cross between hipsterville, homoville, and ghetto people who are getting shoved out as fast as the hipsters and homos can shove them. Lots of good bars, restaurants and music clubs.

  396. it’s not that befuddling – 95% of our company is based in NY, headcount-wise

    and a lot of them live in jersey

    I guess cause they like to mow on the weekends

  397. that’s good to know thank you Mr. Abe I think so far our only free time plans involve heading to a “peninsula” north of LB where my friend D read there was a great sunset to be seen from some restaurant

    lame yes but NG and “the gals” are just gonna go to a movie in LB, and, “maybe check out some outlets”

    but Asbury Park sounds like way more fun

  398. It isn’t New Jersey that I find befuddling so much as where and when. Then again, I suppose that an undesirable community at an off-peak time is pretty cost effective.

  399. I would say yeah it’s a cost-effective thing but it’s always been Jersey with these people

    the founder has a yacht there what he used to take people out on…

    and then, before I started, they were all about the Atlantic City thing – which, I never been to Atlantic City myself outside of reading various and sundry short stories (which pale against the glories of math and engineering) and I would really really love to have a chance to go

    so… I dunno… maybe they’d really rather go back to Atlantic City but these random beach cities *are* more cost effective and we can bring more people

    no one tells me anything

    but yeah this is gay

  400. If only they had lived in a country that allowed them to marry and celebrated their love this could have all been avoided.

  401. Nope. Canada has gay marriage.

    But only in England could you get a headline like that.

  402. B Moe, OK, I’m guessing then that we are indeed talking about a human being if the abortion is done because the baby is a girl, does that sound right?

    I mean, how can you describe a fetus with individual characteristics like gender, and not be describing a human being?

    I’m not breaking your balls, you’re just a likely fellow to actually have an intellectually honest discussion on the subject, instead of spewing circular logic, bald assertions, insults, and enough rabbit holes to drive anyone to distraction… what the happyfeet delivers.

    I don’t think sex is the determining factor, non-humans have gender also.

    Personally I think brain activity is what makes humans human. When the brain kicks in fully it becomes a human being.

  403. sometimes when people grow up and they didn’t never have a mommy or daddy what sang to them you are my sunshine my only sunshine you make me happy when skies are grey they get really mad and stabby

  404. I needed a sarc tag? Damn.

  405. b moe

    When the brain kicks in fully it becomes a human being.

    Not to be provocative – because I’ve always described myself as someone who doesn’t want abortion criminalized or banned up to about 8 weeks, longer in for enumerated exceptions – but just what do you mean “kicks in fully”?

    I think brain activity is a good measure, since we tend to use it as measure of the end of life – but the brain continues to grow and develop even after birth. There is little difference between a newborn’s brain and the unborn brain at 20 weeks.

  406. We used to have a house in Stone Harbor, Abe. It was nice, pretty upscale and beachy. There was a nice shopping district in town and all the homos were further south in crappy Wildwood near the amusement park and shitty t-shirt shops.

    New Jersey sends out beachcombers in the morning before anyone is done with breakfast and rakes up all the cigarette butts and left behind sand toys every day. We used to buy beach tags for the whole season and leave them at the house in case we let anyone else use it when we weren’t.

    Good times.

  407. J’ever go to the Wetlands Institute on the causeway leigh?

  408. I believe so, sdferr. Is it the one with the turtle sanctuary? I really like southern New Jersey. All the different animal life, the drawbridges, the boats, the produce stands. It’s a lot like southern California was when I was a kid.

  409. Yep. They’re all about the turckles. Wifey painted and I installed the mural referenced in the tower.

  410. How cool! Dammit, I just know that I had to have run across you either in New Jersey, Philly or DC.

    Your wife is very talented, btw.

  411. I think brain activity is a good measure, since we tend to use it as measure of the end of life –

    This. Use the same metric for removal of life support at the beginning of life that we use for the end.

  412. Use the same metric for removal of life support at the beginning of life that we use for the end.

    That would mean banning abortion after 6-8 weeks gestation – the earliest that brain activity is detected.

    Fine by me.

  413. Use the same metric for removal of life support at the beginning of life that we use for the end.

    I will point out though, that the standard comes terribly close to WF Buckley’s example of how morally different a singular act can by when looking at context …

    There’s a difference between pushing grandma out of the way of a bus, and pushing grandma into the bus’s path.

  414. Not just any brain activity, the alpha waves or whatever they are called that happen typically toward the end of the second trimester. The ones that indicate actual thought is likely taking placd at some level.

    I try to avoid the morality of it and look at it from a purely logical sense, which I know is impossible, but I don’t care. What defines a human being specifically, and when does one become a human being, in my view those are the key issues.

    Cogito Ergo Sum.

  415. Ability to spell should not be used as an indicator of brain activity.

  416. That would mean banning abortion after 6-8 weeks gestation

    that’s enough time to decide. time to push the responsibility back to the individual.

  417. The ones that indicate actual thought is likely taking place at some level.

    so if you are in a coma you cease being human?

  418. coma baby lives!

  419. so if you are in a coma you cease being human?

    No. Depending on the state of coma, you cease “living”. See: Terri Schiavo and Sunny Von Bulow, sfor instance. They could breathe unaided but whatever it is that makes you newrouter, isn’t in the husk of coma newrouter.

  420. B Moe is right about that ability to spell thing, too.

  421. so if you are in a coma you cease being human?

    You don’t cease being human, but depending on the level of the coma you may have ceased being a human being.

  422. I doubt 6-8 weeks is even enough time to know for certain you are pregnant.

  423. Yes it is, BT. If one is the sort of gal who keeps track of that sort of thing, there are pregnancy tests than can be done as early as the day before the period is due. That is a presumptive test, though and blood work will tell for a certainty.

  424. I doubt 6-8 weeks is even enough time to know for certain you are pregnant.

    oh please. well missing in all of this the is real biological(science!!!) reason that people engage in sex is to make babies. but that points back to personal responsibility and no legalized mulligans .

  425. Just going on personal experience. 6-8 weeks is cutting it pretty tight. And yes, the decision was made against abortion.

  426. b moe/leigh

    Sorry, but legal brain death is “whole brain” not “higher function.”

    See “Uniform Determination of Death Act”

    The Shiavo case rested on whether or not Terry intended to have a living will. Her parents argued “no” her so-called husband argued “yes.”

    Also to be considered, one other specific and telling piece of criteria is the irreversibility of the state of the brain. Something that obviously not in play when dealing with a fetus. The whole point of convenience abortions is “beat the clock” to kill the fetus before its had time to naturally progress toward viability.

    The whole “higher function” thing smacks of Singer and other death-advocates who believe any person not living to full human potential should be stripped of their human rights and be euthanized.

  427. I was answering a question about coma, not abortion. I have no desire to re-fight the Schiavo Wars here.

    BT, back in the day even Free Clinics wanted you to wait until you were at least two weeks late to have a presumptive (urine) test. If the test was positive, you got sent to your doctor for blood work. Home pregnancy tests are much more sensitive than they were even sixteen years ago which was the last time I was pregnant.

  428. 6-8 weeks is too little time we don’t want people rushing this sort of decision cause of they might abort a wee small baby and then figure out how they could’ve made the whole situation work on week 9

  429. 6-8 weeks is cutting it pretty tight.

    for a human trying to be born for sure. sex has been reduced to taking a shit in this leftoid culture.

  430. ur doing it wrong

  431. The whole “higher function” thing smacks of Singer and other death-advocates who believe any person not living to full human potential should be stripped of their human rights and be euthanized.

    Fine. If you are going to go there I am done.

  432. “Uniform Determination of Death Act”

    It appears that this is an act that hasn’t been ratified as a bill. I’m no lawyer, but I don’t see anything that says it was enacted.

  433. Law, not bill. Or something. I know what I mean but, I’m not phrasing it right.

  434. The whole “higher function” thing smacks of Singer and other death-advocates who believe any person not living to full human potential should be stripped of their human rights and be euthanized.

    That’s way harsh, Darleen and not what anyone here is talking about. At. All.

  435. ur doing it wrong

    nah leftoids are fuck ups with everything their tiny progg minds latch on too. see dead birds/windmills.

  436. That’s way harsh

    is it the truth?

  437. No, it isn’t. And I am talking about coma, not abortion.

  438. Just finished eating the best carmel sundae evah! It had the perfect proportion of vanilla ice cream whip cream and carmel on every bite.

    Now let me ax youz guys if you see the same thing as me on this site.

    1. Are all the comments still numbered 1?
    2. When you return from clicking a fellow outlaw’s link does the page go briefly back to where you left for a second and then refresh to the top of the page?
    3. Is it no longer happy hour at the pub (broken link)?

  439. I think “smacks of” is accurate. It’s not an accusation against those innocently using the phrase or the concept it applies to in their own arguments, but they might want to be aware of the history of that concept and make sure they only go down that musty corridor with a heavy flashlight in one hand and a loaded gun in the other, lest they run into some guy in a hockey mask.

  440. 1. Are all the comments still numbered 1?

    I don’t see numbers on the comments at all. It was hard getting used to the numbers being gone but I think it works better this way — the numbering can change, but a quote or a timestamp reference won’t.

    3. Is it no longer happy hour at the pub (broken link)?

    The Pub went down in the hacking that resulted in the complete rebuilding of the site, and hasn’t been resurrected. I would say if it’s not coming back the link in the sidebar should be removed. Even if it is coming back the link can be commented out until then.

  441. Say, cranky, have you noticed that the electric hamster has said not word one about “garriage”?

  442. No, it isn’t. And I am talking about coma, not abortion.

    that’s funny. sometimes peeps take a long time to recover from a coma. you don’t recover from an abortion.

  443. I think it smacks of bullshit on a blog founded on the ideas of intentionalism.

  444. 6-8 weeks is too little time we don’t want people rushing this sort of decision cause of they might abort a wee small baby and then figure out how they could’ve made the whole situation work on week 9

    It’s pretty fucking easy to figure that out on week 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. Choose life.

    Of course, if you’re of a mind to wholly erase the evidence of your irresponsibility, YMMV. It’s only a kid, after all.

  445. Exactly, B Moe.

  446. You don’t cease being human, but depending on the level of the coma you may have ceased being a human being.

    So, does everyone know that Ariel Sharon is still alive?

  447. I think it smacks of bullshit on a blog founded on the ideas of intentionalism.

    tomato seeds don’t grow up to be tomato plants? god i hate darwinists.

  448. b moe/leigh

    I am not trying to insult anyone, I’m only trying to clarify what the legal definition of death when it deals with the brain.

    It goes back to the Quinlan case (my ex/late MIL was one of Karen’s nurses in her later years in the nursing home) when dealing with brain function and death. It was decided that if one withdrew artificial life support and someone died, that demonstrated there was not enough brain function to be considered alive.

    Surprisingly, Karen did not die when her life support was withdrawn.

    So the next thing, was for people horrified at the thought of being in a persistent vegetative state, was to make sure living wills were set up.

    I only cited the Schiavo case because it was not about brain death but whether or not there was a living will covering her vegetative state. Included in the testimony was a doctor who, like Pete Singer, was an advocate of euthanizing people who weren’t up to living at a level of self-consciousness. This isn’t a slam or an insult, this is just the facts of the case and testimony.

    Naomi Wolf has recently written that our kind of dehumanizing of unborn children in order to advocate for abortion on demand (and without guilt) has had some unfortunate consequences – such as the cruel way in which parents who have suffered miscarriages are treated, by both individuals and the system.

    I remain committed to attempting to find some grounds … and the absence of whole brain function is one I am willing to embrace … that defines basic human life. But I want to point out the consequences of going down the path of “higher function” definitions of humanness.

  449. Thanks for the reply, Darleen.

    Sunny Von Bulow lived for 28 years in a Persistant Vegetative State. Karen Ann Quinlan for eleven, I believe. Terri Schiavo, I’m not certain how long. My point is that they are not going to recover—ever. There are few persons who suffer traumatic brain injury and coma followed by PVS. This muddys the waters for persons who have irreversible brain death and will die when removed from life-support, those in medically induced comas, and those in coma for longer periods of time than usual.

    Persons in the later two types of coma, many times will recover. Other times not. PVS is its own terrrible burden for the families, but to suggest that all persons in coma are going to be victimized by plug-kicking nurses and docs is not in the realm of reality. (I am not suggesting that you are saying this, but I have heard patients agonizing about Staff before.)

    Part of my work is in helping the bereaved and I work with doctors and staff. Medicine makes tremendous advances all of the time. Things that killed people 40-50 years ago; childhood and other leukemias, infected wounds, heart attack, for instance, are mainly survivable due to science and dedicated staff and doctors.

    Extraordinary measures are left up to the families in the case of those who may recover. Organ donation is urged if function is failing due to brain death. If organ donation is against the families beliefs, that is respected. However if a patient is only being kept alive by machine (this is measurable, but I won’t go into it here), there must come an end. Both for the dignity of the patient and for the family to move forward in the grieving process.

  450. . However if a patient is only being kept alive by machine (this is measurable, but I won’t go into it here), there must come an end.

    thanks god for checking in that pos in aisle 9 needs a vacuum.

  451. So many remakes out there, why remake “Coma” now?

  452. I noticed, RI Red.

  453. Darleen,

    We are cool then, I just didn’t appreciate being implicated as a closet Eugenist.

    I also consider “legal definition” to be something of an oxymoron, the modern legal profession seems much more interested in blurring than defining. I am looking for a consistent rational medical definition, key word being consistent, that can be applied at the front and the back end of life.

  454. Leigh

    My point is that they are not going to recover—ever.

    I understand your point; however, my point is that even in PVS it is not up to the state, should never be up to the state, to decide whether or not that life is worth living. The bright line should be a living will. And in the absence of a LW, it should be up to family members. In a dispute, the law should always opt for life. (which is where I found the Schiavo thing a tragic miscarriage of justice … but I wont rehash. But for clarification again, only, Terry didn’t die, she was killed. Note I did NOT say ‘murdered’. Her death was ‘legal’ but it was induced)

  455. B Moe

    Just a point in fact, but the UDDA was not just a legal endeavor, but included the medical profession. It really was a response to situations like Quinlan and the ethical issues involved with organ harvesting.

  456. I think it smacks of bullshit on a blog founded on the ideas of intentionalism.

    If it were an accusation it wouldn’t smack of bullshit, it would be bullshit. The point is to inform people so their intent can help keep them out of musty corridors inhabited by guys in hockey masks.

  457. …unless that’s where they actually intend to go (looks at an idiot chipmunk), in which case…

  458. mostly I would like to hear more about this caramel sundae

  459. here is a picture of a Nigerian soldier asking some people to please not stand so close to the plane crash

  460. I don’t think sex is the determining factor, non-humans have gender also.

    No shit!

    My point wasn’t gender as the determining factor, it was that by the time you can determine gender, the fetus has developed enough individual characteristics to be considered a human being. Like, you know enough to name the child. To me, it’s a hard sell to say a fetus isn’t a human being at that point.

  461. by the time you can determine gender

    we found out using the googles that you can pay for a DNA test as early as 7 weeks to find out the gender

  462. I’m not trying to change anyone’s minds

    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

  463. So, we all agree then? Good.

  464. this says you should be able to find out the sex at 7 weeks for less than $500

  465. i hate darwinists

    You have said bad things about “Darwinists” before, nr. Why do you hate science?

  466. Like, you know enough to name the child. To me, it’s a hard sell to say a fetus isn’t a human being at that point.

    Has one of those clumps of cells ever turned out to be a lemur or a tomato? ‘Nuff said.

  467. Persons like Mr. Obama who look at children as a punishment, should thank their stars that they were able to have children. As much as PP would have us all believe that it is incredibly easy to become pregnant and then to carry a child to term; it isn’t. The idea that if you find a particular pregnancy to be inconvenient and just decide to terminate it and get pregnant later when it better suits your schedule, well it doesn’t always work that way.

    Abortion advocates discount the enormous psychological impact of having an abortion, as well. PP fails its clients in this area the most. The women who come to PP for abortion “counseling” are not offered other alternatives. There is no outreach between PP and adoption agencies. Confused young women, perhaps feeling trapped by their circumstance are dealt the cruelest blow by PP who assure them that abortion is safer than getting a tonsilectomy. You may not need your tonsils, but you may wish to have a child in the future. There is no way around it: Abortion is the taking of a human life. That is a burden the woman will carry for the rest of her life, most especially if she has difficulty conceiving a child a later date or is unable to conceive again.

    If we could find a way to turn down the volume on the strident postures of both sides of the abortion debate (unlikely), we may actually be able to come to a truce. Most likely an armed truce, but it would be better than what we have now.

  468. Steven Chu called. He says the Department of Energy is intrigued by the renewable energy potential from this thread.

    It’s looking way, way better than algae.

  469. I like algae in a post-apocalyptic sense. It’s a lot less technology intensive than drilling for oil.

    I’m not sure what it takes to extract the fuel from the algae, though.

  470. I’m not sure what it takes to extract the fuel from the algae, though.

    heh, whaddya bet it takes more fuel to extract the lesser fuel extracted? Seems like that’s the way these utopian economic schemes usually go.

  471. Whatever it costs, you know there are people out there writing grant proposals explaining how they can make it cost effective.

  472. Has one of those clumps of cells ever turned out to be a lemur or a tomato? ‘Nuff said.

    I hear you Pablo…I’m trying to be compromisey. Baby steps.

  473. I don’t think that’s the case, sdferr. I think the problem with algae is in the growing of the algae, which requires a lot of water and lots of acreage for the water to spread out on (though at least the land need not be arable). I believe the fuel can be directly squeezed out of the little buggers and filtered and there you are. I don’t know how the squeezing is done, though.

    Now, in the case of ethanol, you definitely have a negative energy problem. If you treat it as a fuel additive in limited amounts (like less than we’re using now) you can almost justify it (if it actually does some good emissions-wise, of course), but it cannot replace gasoline.

  474. Of course, algae could still have a negative energy issue.

  475. Suppose me to subsume in the general sense of fuel all the energy inputs — start to finish — of the production of whatever algaefuels we might produce in the quantities required to make such algaefuels actually useful or economically interesting (to sketch more broadly — not putting an absolute use attainment upon the stuff). I imagine that’s what you’d suggest as the meaning of negative energy issue, but I’m merely guessing there cranky-d.

  476. Yeah, basically I’m saying “negative energy issue” rather than saying that the energy contained in the resultant fuel is less than the energy input used to create it. For ethanol that’s a given. I don’t know about algae. I know it’s very expensive to produce right now, but I’m not sure how much of that is due to costs other than energy, which could perhaps be solved via production on a larger scale.

    Now, if one had a cheap, abundant source of one form of energy (say, electricity from some form of nuclear power), but wanted another energy source that is energy dense and easily transportable (say, diesel fuel), then one might be willing to live with a loss in the conversion process for the sake of convenience. I think that’s a viable tradeoff in some circumstances.

    The thing is, bio-fuels are mostly a distraction. I like the idea of making algae fuel from a scientific standpoint, but I doubt it will be practical any time soon, and it need not be. We have enough resources in this country to last us a long time. We can produce the fuel we need from any of the sources of coal, shale oil, etc. In every case, the energy required for production is a fraction of the energy of the resulting fuel. It’s not as cheap as dealing directly with lite sweet crude, but it’s still do-able.

    Our energy problems are purely political.

  477. this says you should be able to find out the sex at 7 weeks for less than $500

    I’m sure all of the well-to-do boychildwanting Chinese will be all over that.

  478. I like the idea of making algae fuel from a scientific standpoint

    Me too, but I keep remembering that no-free-lunch clause to thermodynamics, and realize that really, you’re not going to get something for nothing.

  479. i believe that sort of thing is illegal in China Mr. Slart

    The new law puts in place fines and a three-year prison term for helping detect the sex of the baby before birth. *

    good job Lila

  480. Who is Lila, and why pretend pro-life people are all embodied by this Lila?

    Is that one of those Alinsky thangs?

  481. Liiiiiiiiiila

    you don’t have to wear that dress tonight

  482. The algae is produced by Mr. Sun. That isn’t something for nothing.

  483. Or, I should say, the energy that the algae eventually contain is sourced from Mr. Sun.

  484. Who is Lila, and why pretend pro-life people are all embodied by this Lila?

    She’s the girl that has Planned Parenthood pissing their tax-sucking, baby-killing britches. She’s also the object of feets’ most recent unhinged obsession. Rawr.

  485. She looks dangerous, no wonder she commands so much fear from her detractors.

  486. I would not hit that on a train
    I would not hit that in the rain

    I would not hit that in a house
    I would not hit that with a mouse

    I would not do it for a ruble
    I’d never hit that lifeydoodle!

  487. She’s devastated, I’m sure.

  488. She’s darling.

  489. Yeah, I make a point of playing ” I would not hit that” with people that are way out of my league too.

  490. Lillaaaa…you don’t have to spew out defective Christers (like Palin).
    Lilaaaa…you don’t have to sell your body to the “ultrasound is legalized rape “right.

    Hmmm. Naw.

    This just isn’t working.

  491. Hmmmm. Whadda ya think of that?

  492. Canadians aren’t usually like that

  493. Garriage, happy?

  494. no garriage thank you I think it would be more better just to say it’s all marriage

    the important thing is that everybody is treated equally cause it’s all self-evident and shit that’s that how God created people

  495. Jesus disagrees. See Matthew 19.

  496. Jesus has nothing to do with the god of the electric hamster.

  497. Happy has told us many, many times that he is a Lutheran of staunchest stripe.

    Lutherans have Luther League for their yoots which includes bible study and also fun stuff like sandlot baseball.

    He needs to bone up on the New Testament part of the bible if he’s going to selectively toss out “quotes” which are not quotes.

  498. I sense some anti-Lutheran from you. You certainly have a distorted view of them. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, though I don’t ascribe to their entire doctrine any more.

    In any case, happyfeet’s god conforms to happyfeet’s doctrine, not the other way around.

  499. “that’s that how God created people”

    God’s a shitty engineer.

    After all, he made the folks that were shoveling other folks into ovens during the early 1940’s. As well as all the murdering folks that have walked this earth since the beginning of time.

  500. I’m cool with Lutherans. No worries there.

  501. Happy uses staunch the same way Mitt Romney uses severe.

  502. Incorrectly, Ernst?

  503. Disingenuously, leigh.

  504. Matthew 19… that’s the one that says no divorce except in cases of adultery and that you should give away all your worldly possessions if you want to get right with God, right?

  505. He needs to bone up on the New Testament part of the bible if he’s going to selectively toss out “quotes”

    i think maybe you need to bone up on the declaration of the independence leigh it’s on the internet somewheres

  506. Isn’t the Declaration the one that says we’re endowed by our Creator? Is that the same Creator that Matthew 19 speaks of?

  507. When happyfeet is in Jersey, he needs to head about 5 miles south of Long Branch and learn him some Jesus.

  508. Just gimme gas for my ford keep me trucking for the lord gimme gas for my ford I pray

    Hallelujer brother abe!

  509. This is the ion thruster of internet threads.

  510. There’s a Nuns Beach in Stone Harbor. Watch out for the Sisters when they are riding their bikes, they have the right of way—or else.

  511. Relax, happy.

    Jesus loves the little children
    All the children of the World.
    Red and yellow, black and white,
    They are precious in His sight.
    Jesus loves the little children of the World.

  512. Can we do a round ok I will start

  513. Is lax having a terrorism the cops have blocked off a terminal here I cannot get to my big metal bird

  514. Is Obama in the hood for another fund-raiser?

  515. That’s possible I guess, but why can’t we have air conditioning? … Ok they just announced they are holding flights in my terminal

  516. I usually have good luck in LAX. Denver is the airport that hates me. I’ve been delayed there at least six times.

    AC? Head for the bar.

  517. I got an iced tea and the air is back on but so far we have not resolved the issue

  518. Or, I should say, the energy that the algae eventually contain is sourced from Mr. Sun.

    Sure. Which means you need to have square mile after square mile of algae farms, just like you’d need square mile after square mile of solar panels.

  519. To this point: 529 comments, 147 of which were babbled by the electric hamster.

    By my count, anyway.

  520. no garriage thank you I think it would be more better just to say it’s all marriage
    No reasoned intellectual discourse, just ignoring the definition of words. Sorry, happy. Your colors are showing.

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