Having covered the mechanics of the standing double wristlock, a throw from the position, and some counters to the move when applied improperly (as, say, an ordinary shoulder lock), we will now take a look at American catch wrestling’s double wristlock (or kimura) from the ground. Again, keys to remember: the twisting of the arm to take away the opponent’s strength; keeping the arm away from your opponent’s body, to stave off a grip up (a common counter — which will force you to chain into a key lock); and sliding pressure / weight over the shoulder under attack to act as a counterlever to that arm being raised.
Unlike the standing double wristlock, this move is less a forearm break than a shoulder attack. Still, applying bone to bone contact on the forearm is very painful, and often times will lead to a tap before you finish the frame up and begin attacking the shoulder.
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direct link to youtube.
Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 12:43 pm #
Obviously in real-time this happens extremely quickly, but I would imagine if your opponent was attempting something like this, but was not doing it well, a punch/grab of “the boys” might be a counter.
Comment by John Bradley on 12/19 @ 12:50 pm #
Jeff – please post direct (text) links to the videos, as well as the embeds. The emebedded videos don’t show up in IE7 or 8 for various excellent reasons, and it’s annoying to go nosing through the HTML source looking for the youtube URL.
Comment by LTC John on 12/19 @ 12:50 pm #
“bone to bone contact on the forearm is very painful”
Yes. Yes it is.
Ow.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 12:52 pm #
Well, Tony’s back was acting up here, cranky, so he is half on his knees, which he might not normally be. Generally, your opponent won’t be able to reach the crotch if you are pinning him correctly with your chest. More likely he’ll be trying to buck or shove you off.
The best counter, naturally, is to not let the lock get framed up, because once it’s on, you are pretty much fucked. What you’d want to do when your opponent begins to frame is try to slide your hips over the locked arm, so that the locked arm is underneath you, then use your leg and hip strength to push out and straighten the arm.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 12:53 pm #
Here you go, John.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:00 pm #
The pro-wrestling figure four and an actual hooking leg lock are different, and differently applied, with one being a show hold, and the other capable of inflicting serious damage. Mostly with leg locks, we’ll stick to heel hooks, toe holds, Achilles locks and shin locks. We also head scissor to control the head, or we can modify it to apply it as a choke.
When some people teach the Kimura on the ground, they advocate stepping over the head. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact, it can worsen the hook (we will more often than not simply circle toward the head if necessary). Unfortunately, most people who teach that step over move need it, because they don’t have the double wristlock on properly to begin with, and so the opponent is able to defend it with pure strength, or escape because of all the space created when the arm is lifted, before that leg ever comes over the head.
Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 1:02 pm #
Somewhere Patterico is yelling and stamping his feet.
Sorry sir.
“You don’t wait for a tap in a street fight”.
Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 1:09 pm #
Jeff @ #7,
The step over the head is chess/ not checkers is it not? I guess I’d have to hands on this wrist lock to be that self confident in it. I completely get your explanation, but the “step over” virtually guarantees an arm bar if the Kimura or wrist lock fails. Or am I wrong?
Comment by John Bradley on 12/19 @ 1:14 pm #
Thank you sir, you’re a gentleman and a scholar… or possibly a fraudulent race-baiting, pseudo-intellectual money grubber. Opinions vary.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:21 pm #
Well, if you blow the lock and step over the head, your opponent can conceivably merely end up underneath in the side mount (at which point you’re right back where you started, only mirrored now on the opposite side). Or, if he’s good and can break his arm free, he can roll quickly to referee position and potentially even get behind you as you try to come over and around, or maybe sit up and sit or heist out.
Me, if I can get take the arm at the proper place and take away his strength (we call it a “twist” here, but in actuality, the twist applies itself when you grab at the proper place on the wrist and then pin the arm down), I will take my time getting the hook, because I know I’ve got it. Most times, guys will try to grip up — but if you are serious, you’d jones him at that point, sliding the point of your elbow down the floating rib, at which point he’ll not want to grip up any longer, and will gladly give you the arm away from his body.
Catch is based off chaining, but it is also predicated on getting hooks quickly and doing them correctly so that you don’t spend a lot of time fumbling around.
That is to say, we try to grab these hooks in transition. So for instance, if you grab a high crotch take down, and you know that when your opponent hits the ground, he will generally have his arms up in a “freeze!” position, you will be half way through applying a top wrist lock before he’s able to gather himself from hitting the ground. If you are a bit behind, and the guy has some training and immediately works to get that arm down, you can be waiting with this lock — or (if your momentum on the takedown is not bringing you toward his head), you can already be in the heel hook entry.
There are very few 5 minute street fights. Don’t let people tell you otherwise.
Comment by Labatouche on 12/19 @ 1:22 pm #
“they advocate stepping over the head”
OK, I see now. So that’s like a modified Indian Deathlock?
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:25 pm #
Indian death lock.
Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 1:32 pm #
Thanks for answering.
Comment by John Bradley on 12/19 @ 1:33 pm #
This, of course, led ultimately to the figure four leglock–an evergreen perennial which continues to be innovated upon by such masters as Shawn Michaels.
Which recalls the name “Greg ‘The Hammer’ Valentine” from one of the dustier corners of my brain. Chief Jay Strongbow could not be reached for comment.
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:37 pm #
It’s funny, John, but all those moves — the show holds — have their referents in hooking. Chief Jay Strongbow’s “sleeper hold” was a rear-naked choke (never applied as such, naturally), and he was “showing” it long before most people had ever heard the term “rear naked choke.”
Comment by Labatouche on 12/19 @ 1:39 pm #
“Which recalls the name “Greg ‘The Hammer’ Valentine” from one of the dustier corners of my brain”
It was a dark and stormy night when “Greg ‘The Hammer’ Valentine” first entered my consciousness.
Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 1:39 pm #
Makes sense.
I started BJJ only six months ago. I’m being well taught, but the thought process is not natural to me yet. Not instinctual.
I grew up boxing. Golden Gloves and stuff.
Tough for me to be on the ground period, I guess.
Comment by Labatouche on 12/19 @ 1:51 pm #
“Chief Jay Strongbow’s “sleeper hold” was a rear-naked choke”
So? It was still an innovation.
What do you have against Native Americans?
Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:57 pm #
Lamont. Email me. Fast. Meantime, get off your back.
Boxing is a big part of what we do. The level changes in boxing and wrestling mesh perfectly together. We do modify things a bit (for instance, I might not step to the outside to go for a liver shot; more likely, I’d try to slip and land it as I stepped to the opposite side so I’d be in position for a single leg takedown), but boxing, wrestling, and catch (we think of it as one and the same) really to fit together seamlessly.
Comment by J."Trashman" Peden on 12/19 @ 2:24 pm #
Geesus! Looks like I’m going to have to work a lot harder on my ermm speed in ermm…hightailing it the hell right out of there.