“Groundhog Day: This Time, It’s Structural”: a dicentra guest post

	Return to Protein Wisdom homepage « Things to do in Denver when you’re dead, #13 \| Home \| Saturday self defense: the double wristlock (on the ground) » December 18, 2009 “Groundhog Day: This Time, It’s Structural”: a dicentra guest post All right evabody — morons, sexists, sycophants, cretins, malcontents, misanthropes, racists, rednecks, homos, homophobes, hobos, lawyers, and assorted freaks — listen up. I was away from the Internet for about 24 hours (enjoying a 6-hour meeting in Oakland, CA), and I came back to see that you yobs are still at it, making the same arguments and accusations, spinning in the same circles, hurling the same invective. (By the way, did you know that after a long flight [chilling the fuel in the wings], when the plane descends into more humid air, ice forms on the wings? And furthermore, that California prohibits the use of de-icing fluid? That’s an hour on the tarmac I’m not getting back, CA, thanks a LOT!) This is why you’re getting nowhere: There are two types of arguments being made — some about structure and others about content. If you respond to one type of argument with the other kind, you get the current situation: a nihilistic version of Groundhog Day where Bill Murray never stops driving the car into the wall, never gets to February 3rd, never gets Andie MacDowell. Like it much? Then keep at it. Otherwise, smarten up and learn to distinguish between the two types. Structure argument — One that addresses the way things are put together. Content argument — One that makes a value judgment. (I left out gratuitous flaming, which not really argument but is as endemic to blog threads as candiru to the Amazon.) Example: Structure: The building has been built to spec and will withstand an earthquake of 5.0 on the Richter scale. Content: The building is ugly. What an eyesore! Who approved that abortion of a design? Example 2: Structure: When you make a value judgment about someone’s statement, you are also making a value judgment about what motivated the statement. Content: That statement is offensive. Example 3: Structure: To determine whether Willow or Bristol was the butt of Letterman’s joke, we must look at what we know about Letterman, what we know about his audience, and what we know about how political comedy works. Even then, we would still have to X-ray his soul to get the exact answer, because he can lie about what he meant. Content: Letterman’s joke was despicable, insensitive, and disgusting. He needs to be called on it loudly and ardently until he apologizes. Got it? Of course you do. All of you do. This isn’t a question of who is smart enough to get it. This is a question of which type of argument you want to make. Jeff wants to argue structure. He has always wanted to argue structure. The Protein Wisdom archives contain post after post about the structure of language. The intentionalist argument is about structure and structure only. Applying the intentionalist argument to situations various and sundry is what Protein Wisdom is FOR. Pat, on the other hand, wants to argue content. He wants to say whether a statement is despicable, racist, inappropriate, violent, actionable, or otherwise. Here’s the thing: When you’re trying to make content arguments, structure arguments don’t mesh up with content arguments. They’re a tangent that may or may not illuminate content arguments, but they definitely don’t refute them. The reverse is also true: When making structure arguments, content arguments at best serve as distractions. They might be of interest, but they don’t further or refute structure arguments in the least. So when Pat said that RSM’s statement was racist but that RSM may or may not be, Jeff did not respond to the content of Pat’s argument (the question of whether RSM actually is racist) but to the structure of Pat’s argument, which contained a logical inconsistency. If Pat had rephrased his argument as “RSM’s statement sounds racist, but we don’t yet know if racism motivated it,” then that would have been the end of it: structure shored up, content left to march on. But no. And why? Because structure arguments are harder to use to make value judgments, harder to use to discredit the arguer, harder to use to gin up outrageous outrage. Content arguments, on the other hand, are deliciously utile in that regard. Which leads us to this: Jeff (or proxy): If you say that a statement is racist, you also say that the statement was motivated by racism. Pat (or proxy): ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY?!?!?!?!! Jeff (or proxy): By which I mean to say … Pat (or proxy): I HAVE PROOF! Jeff (or proxy): … that the true meaning of a statement can only be derived from the stater’s intent, because words don’t have meaning without someone intending to mean something. Pat (or proxy): JEFF DID NOT REPLY TO MY CONTENT ARGUMENT WITH ANOTHER CONTENT ARGUMENT; THEREFORE, HE IS A LYING HYPOCRITE!?!!?!?! Jeff (or proxy): I’m not being heard, here. Do you get what I’m saying? At all? In any way? Pat (or proxy): NOT ONLY THAT, I HAVE PROOF THAT JEFF DELETED A POST 7 MONTHS AGO, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THAT THE CONVERSION TO WORDPRESS BROKE A LOT OF THE OLDER LINKS. Jeff (the real one): NOT ONLY THAT, I HAVE PROOF THAT PAT DELETED HALF HIS BRAIN IN A SELF-INFLICTED LOBOTOMY 7 MONTHS AGO, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT LOBOTOMY PATIENTS CAN’T OPERATE A KEYBOARD. dicentra: Superman, Chuck Norris, and Jack Bauer all wear Jeff Goldstein pajamas. Pat (or proxy): THAT’S NOT FUNNY. YOU JUST THREATENED ME WITH A LOBOTOMY! Jeff (the real one): That wasn’t a threat. THIS is a threat: In the extremely small likelihood that I run into you or your minions in the meatworld, I will put into practice the catch-wrestling techniques I’ve been honing lo these many months. You won’t like it. Pat (or proxy): JEFF GOLDSTEIN IS A VIOLENT, VICIOUS, STATUTORY-RAPING, RACIST-ENABLING, LYING HYPOCRITE WHO ALSO GRUBS MONEY. Jeff (the real one): You forgot to add that I grub money because I have a Jewish-sounding surname. (LOL!) Pat (the real one): JEFF GOLDSTEIN JUST CALLED ME ANTI-SEMITIC! HE’S A FILTHY JEW-LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE! Jeff (the real one): #^$(@ $(&) @!)%!!!!!! &c. (Disclaimer:* I may have exaggerated the Pat parts somewhat.) I have seen Jeff stick to his structure arguments throughout, knowing full well that he was making structure arguments as opposed to content arguments, and only deviating from those structure arguments to mock Pat, threaten to beat various of Pat’s sycophants to a bloody pulp (the threats being made in the knowledge that there was a 0.00000002% chance of them being carried out, which makes them … wait for it … empty threats), and expressing frustration when his structure arguments were met almost exclusively with content arguments. How many more times does he need to make the structure argument before Pat responds in kind? I say none. Not because Pat or his proxies are too stupid to understand the structure arguments. Not because Jeff is a lying hypocrite. But because Pat, having touched on the structure argument some time back, is more interested in the content argument. Period. Full stop. Why he is interested in the content argument? Because it better suits his purposes, whereas structure arguments do not. His purposes could range from a desire to coolly analyze content, to a failure to take his lithium during a manic phase, to a malicious desire to discredit and destroy a hated rival for all time, to a pathological inability to Just. Let. Something. Go. Or something else entirely. I don’t care at this point. It’s also apparent that Pat’s supporters (and a few of Jeff’s) also prefer the content argument because it’s the shortest road to ad hominem and other bludgeons. My advice to Jeff is to close the comment sections to the Frey fray posts and just start posting again about other things, deleting all new comments that reintroduce the Frey fray (regardless of author), and leaving the whole issue behind as an exercise in utter futility. But that’s just me. I’m not the one being publicly characterized as the Worst Person in the World. In the event that you would like to smear my name, though, here are some suggestions: 1. dicentra, like Jeff, is a FAILED ACADEMIC. She did all the coursework and exams for a Ph.D. but left Cornell without finishing her dissertation. Which was about the concept of language in 16th-century Spanish mysticism. Hence her interest in Protein Wisdom. 2. dicentra is 46 and single BECAUSE NO MAN WILL HAVE HER. 3. The perennials in dicentra’s garden have a better than 50% chance of dying before their time. 4. dicentra is Jeff’s most pathetic sycophant, having composed no fewer than 80 little-known facts about Jeff to flatter him most shamelessly, in an attempt to cadge a free subscription to the future site. 5. dicentra is a filthy Mormon and therefore [not a Christian and will go to hell right alongside atheists and Unitarians \| a gullible, brainwashed, superstitious, closed-minded imbecile]. 6. dicentra is an overweight, near-sighted, graying-around-the-temples, left-handed, flat-footed, hypothyroid luuuuuuser. 7. The birds won’t come to dicentra’s feeders this winter because she splashes around in the Protein Wisdom cesspool and they can tell. That should get you started. Me? I’m done. [this post was written by dicentra, a regular here at protein wisdom] Posted by Jeff G. @ 3:38 pm Comments (572) \| Trackback 572 Comments ::: Post a comment » Comment by David R. Block on 12/18 @ 3:51 pm # That summarizes things quite well. Comment by DarthRove on 12/18 @ 3:51 pm # 8. dicentra is unaware that “luuuuuser” only has 5 “u”s. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 3:53 pm # Hmmmm. I’m still feeling a mite suspicious. About the bifurcation. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/18 @ 4:00 pm # I think I should go back to having these kinds of conversations with Dim Sum dumplings. They manage to channel all their outrages into a hatred for low sodium soy sauce. Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 4:08 pm # This is why dicentra starts on the pw varsity team. Speaking of which, dicentra can make a boulder so big even she can’t lift it. And she can also lift it. Comment by mojo on 12/18 @ 4:09 pm # …rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, horn-swogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists! Comment by psycho... on 12/18 @ 4:09 pm # I will hunt you down and have you, lefty! Because you make some solid points, if in fact there was formerly an argument happening that degenerated into something else. But I didn’t see one. Jeff’s half of it was long over already — because it’s a small and simple set of undubious assertions that all he can do anymore (I think) is repeat or expand or narrow or etc. by testing them in application, or move past as given — and the other supposed half-argument was several something elses entirely, with not an argument-cule in sight. You knew I’d say that. And also but, unstably ironic weird flames is what’s cool here. I think. Comment by LBascom on 12/18 @ 4:15 pm # If Pat had rephrased his argument as “RSM’s statement sounds racist, but we don’t yet know if racism motivated it,” then that would have been the end of it: structure shored up, content left to march on. Did someone say irony? Was that you Rush? Comment by Kresh on 12/18 @ 4:17 pm # I think I should go back to having these kinds of conversations with Dim Sum dumplings. They manage to channel all their outrages into a hatred for low sodium soy sauce. I’d call them sodiumists, but I agree with them. It’s like light beer or low-calorie ice cream. What’s the point of the exercise then? Flavor is dangerous. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 4:34 pm # dicentra is made of incisive Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 4:34 pm # I wish everybody could just be friends like before. Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/18 @ 4:38 pm # Sometimes it takes a woman’s touch. dicentra deserves a guest bloggership on the main page. Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/18 @ 4:39 pm # #11 happyfeet Just keep shining your li’l light, is all you can do. Comment by guinsPen on 12/18 @ 4:41 pm # Ok, dice’, but I didn’t expect a kind of Spanish Mysticism… Comment by Adriane on 12/18 @ 4:41 pm # This post contained absolutely no reference to pie. Until now. Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 4:46 pm # to a malicious desire to discredit and destroy a hated rival for all time, to a pathological inability to Just. Let. Something. Go. I vote for a combo of those two. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 4:46 pm # NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH MYSTICISM! Our three greatest weapons are interpretations literal, moral, allegorical, and anagogical… FOUR! Our four greatest weapons… Comment by SporkLift Driver on 12/18 @ 4:48 pm # Beautiful post dicentra, beautiful comment psycho. 1. SporkLift Driver is a failed human being who’s never held any job worth having because he lacks the confidence to lie on a resume. He just doesn’t get away with those kinds of things. He knows the interviewer will ASK and he won’t be able to lie convincingly. 2. He is a looser who hardly comments because he doesn’t like his writing which never quite conveys what he intends. Comment by Lost My Cookies on 12/18 @ 4:49 pm # This would make more sense if you weren’t all pedophile-rape enabling racists. In a good way, I think I mean. Comment by Adriane on 12/18 @ 4:49 pm # In continuing the theme of seeing others joined in marital bliss, may I suggest, “Hello, my name is dicentra and I keep gullible, overweight, Mormons locked in a bird cesspool with Spanish mystics…” as a simple yet straight-forward approach to introduce yourself to prospective mates … Comment by Lost My Cookies on 12/18 @ 4:51 pm # Not that there’s much bad to say about raping pedophiles, if you have one handy. I usually use a set of kitchen shears to remove the seeds, blanch, then wrap in bacon, sprinkle with brown sugar and rape away. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 4:51 pm # Structure: The data from the sCRUtape leakage shows that the datasets are an unfathomable mess. Content: But what’s wrong with wanting clean air? Aren’t there some policy positions that we can all agree on? (Actually seen on CNN, with Steve McIntyre in the Jeff position and Campbell Brown in Pat’s) Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 4:53 pm # 8. During the last 6 years, dicentra has been unemployed more than employed, and yet she was still able to keep paying her mortgage. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW WHY! Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 4:54 pm # 7. The birds won’t come to dicentra’s feeders this winter because she splashes around in the Protein Wisdom cesspool and they can tell. Even the blue jays? Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 4:55 pm # The birds are still avoiding your feeders, di? maybe hanging a few of those pinetree carfreshners from your glassframes might help. Comment by Bruce NV on 12/18 @ 4:56 pm # I’m afraid to post here. You guys are too smart. Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 4:56 pm # dicentra, are you in Utah? The only person I know from Utah is Jewish. Comment by Mr. W on 12/18 @ 4:59 pm # Sometimes I notice the stream of consciousness that imbues this site with whatever odd pull that it has on a certain stripe of person. I went back to the top of the thread and read down. Then I figured that the dinner conversation on Jeff’s booze cruise would sound just like this thread once everyone had a few snifters. I imagined it would be like supper would be if your daughter was Virginia Woolf and she brought home Hunter S. Thompson in Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner. In short, a delight. Pretty much right up until the target practice with the navigation buoys alerts the Coast Guard that there is drunken tomfoolery afoot. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:04 pm # No blue jays here in Utah, John, nor cardinals, to my grand sorrow. If I lived closer to the mountains, I could score pinyon jays and maybe scrub-jays, but those are the only blue corvids that live around here. Most of my visitors are house finches and Oregon juncos, and I sometimes score American goldfinches (in their olive-drab winter coats), pine siskins, black-capped chickadees, mourning doves, common redpolls, house sparrows, spotted towhees, and even a male ring-necked pheasant once. But no glorious blue jays. They just don’t make it west of the Rockies. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:06 pm # Darleen: I’m seeing evidence that they dig into the tray of sunflower seeds (missing seeds, cute little tracks, but since I leave early and come home after dark, I rarely see them. Even then, the volume of birdage is greatly diminished. On the weekends, I almost never see them. Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 5:09 pm # That’s too bad. I give blue jays whole peanuts here. When one sees the feeder’s refilled, he calls all his buddies and it’s empty in a few hours. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:12 pm # However, I did purchase “Video Catnip,” a self-repeating DVD that is supposed to taunt kittehs with footage of birdses and squirrelses hopping about. I end up watching it alone for the close-ups of the blue jays eating whole peanuts. Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 5:15 pm # Hm. My cat actually rant to the TV to swat it when colorful birds were flitting about on the screen (PBS “Nature”). Right as he was about to swat, the scene changed, with the birds disappearing. He spent the next few minutes being very confused and disappointed. Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 5:16 pm # di I feel for you. I have a couple of feeders… not to many hummers left around (I’m always torn on whether to leave it up during the winter to feed any strays or taking it down to force ‘em to migrate to Mexico) Mostly sparrows swarm the regular feeder, finches the thistle one. In the late spring I’ll get a couple of passing Western Tanagers. We are plagued with pigeons around here, but hey, I woke one Saturday and looked out my kitchen window to see a red-tail hawk dining on breast of pigeon on my patio (got a couple satisfyingly gruesome pics) Comment by Jim in KC on 12/18 @ 5:17 pm # There’s been a blue jay, along with what looks like about 300 other assorted birds, in one of my neighbor’s trees for about two weeks off and on now. Drawn by the trash cans from the apartment building just to the west of the tree, I suspect. We also occasionally see cardinals hanging around. Ant then I had a pigeon nest up inside my porch one time. I shot it dead with an air pistol and left its carcass there as a warning. Worked like a charm. Comment by JohnAnnArbor on 12/18 @ 5:18 pm # “ran” to the TV. Comment by Benedick on 12/18 @ 5:21 pm # John, I’ve totally done that too. Comment by RTO Trainer on 12/18 @ 5:25 pm # I think I should go back to having these kinds of conversations with Dim Sum dumplings. They manage to channel all their outrages into a hatred for low sodium soy sauce. Well, yes. Plus, have you ever met a long-winded Dim Sum dumpling? Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:27 pm # In other news, an exercise in compare and contrast. Comment by RTO Trainer on 12/18 @ 5:28 pm # I vote for a combo of those two. CONSTRUCTIONIST! (or, that wasn’t what you had in mind, dicentra?) Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:28 pm # I also vote for more Dim Sum dumplings. Oh, and for the posts where they talk. Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 5:31 pm # dicentra who the hell puts “liberty” and a Jefferson quote on a poster advocating nationalized medicine??? Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:34 pm # who the hell puts “liberty” and a Jefferson quote on a poster advocating nationalized medicine??? Who do you think? that wasn’t what you had in mind, dicentra I can’t comment on the speakers intent, even if it’s my own in there somewhere. I took a nap right after sending Jeff the post (hence it’s lack of title for awhile), which erased my flash memory, RAM, ROM, and other data stores. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 5:36 pm # erased my flash memory, RAM, ROM, and other data stores Exhibit A: the speakers intent should be the speaker’s intent or the speakers’ intent. hence it’s lack should be hence its lack Comment by Jim in KC on 12/18 @ 5:36 pm # I think I might have envisioned Washington DC more as the coccyx than the heart. Comment by Makewi on 12/18 @ 5:36 pm # Your cat needs this. Comment by Bruce NV on 12/18 @ 5:38 pm # In fact, I fell dim, in sum. Comment by Bruce NV on 12/18 @ 5:39 pm # feel dim, feel dim. arrrgh Comment by Mikey NTH on 12/18 @ 5:40 pm # If we are to argue structure versus content… Damn, that is going to require more work than finding a pitchfork (if I bend the tines on this garden rake just so…) and lighting it up a torch. You want me to think? What has happened to the innertubes? ahem I’ll be good… Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 6:02 pm # You want me to think? What has happened to the innertubes? This is Protein Wisdom buddy; we don’t tolerate no shenanigans, japery, jocularity, or horseplay. Comment by Carin on 12/18 @ 6:02 pm # I think dicentra has summarized why this debate reminds me of this 80’s hit. Comment by stuiec on 12/18 @ 6:04 pm # “There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim sum….” Comment by stuiec on 12/18 @ 6:05 pm # “Plus, have you ever met a long-winded Dim Sum dumpling?” If by long-winded you intend to mean a Dim Sum dumpling that gives one wind for a long time, then yes, yes I have. Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/18 @ 6:06 pm # Well done, dicentra! Well done. As Jeff’s dumb sycophant, even I understood it. You got mad skeeeiiilllzz… Comment by stuiec on 12/18 @ 6:06 pm # “Hm. My cat actually rant to the TV to swat it when colorful birds were flitting about on the screen (PBS “Nature”). Right as he was about to swat, the scene changed, with the birds disappearing. He spent the next few minutes being very confused and disappointed.” One of my cats runs behind the TV to see where the squirrel went. Comment by Mikey NTH on 12/18 @ 6:09 pm # This is Protein Wisdom buddy; we don’t tolerate no shenanigans, japery, jocularity, or horseplay. Oh crap! And I just got those ponies taught euchre! Comment by LBascom on 12/18 @ 6:10 pm # Oh no, Chavez smells sulfur around Obama too. That can’t be good. Makes me giggle though… Comment by SDN on 12/18 @ 6:30 pm # Friend of mine had 2 cats and one African Gray Parrot. The parrot drove those cats crazy once it learned to meow back at them…. 8-) Comment by geoffb on 12/18 @ 6:46 pm # This is Protein Wisdom buddy; we don’t tolerate no shenanigans, japery, jocularity, or horseplay. Then why is it that dicentra always makes me smile? Comment by Uh-huh on 12/18 @ 6:52 pm # Nice post, a good breakdown of the situation. Oh, and my cat used to swat the foul Night Elves on my computer screen as I played World of Warcraft. He realized that wasn’t working and tried reaching underneath and behind after a while. The little pest once unhooked the screen in the middle of battle. I no longer let him up to watch me kill Night Elves. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 7:09 pm # dicentra, you are a national treasure. Hilarious and spot on. Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 7:30 pm # Dicentra, A luuuuuuuuser?!? Hardly…This post is evidence to the contrary, in terms of both structure and content… I’ve always said you were something special; a smart cookie indeed. And I certainly don’t know what’s wrong with the fellas out in your neck of the woods… I especially liked the Monty Pyton-esque, “NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH MYSTICISM!” All the best Comment by Patrick S (not that other Patrick who may or may not be anti-semitic) on 12/18 @ 7:35 pm # We serve hard drinks in here for men who want to get drunk fast, and we don’t need any characters around to give the joint “atmosphere”. Because it’s a Wonderful Life! Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 7:36 pm # And I certainly don’t know what’s wrong with the fellas out in your neck of the woods… Probably nothing. You forgot to take into account what’s wrong with me. Comment by ducktrapper on 12/18 @ 7:37 pm # That’s how it goes alright. In the end, I normally want to punch them out. How’s that for content? Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 7:38 pm # OT but important: Sign the MOVEON.Org petotion to kill the healthcare bill! http://pol.moveon.org/block/index.html Help to ensure that OPERATION WATERLOO is a success! http://tiny.cc/Hz75u But, you know, use protection… We now return to your regulary scheduled post discussion thread. Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 7:40 pm # “Probably nothing. You forgot to take into account what’s wrong with me.” You mean the part about killing half of the flowers in your garden? Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 7:53 pm # Then I figured that the dinner conversation on Jeff’s booze cruise would sound just like this thread once everyone had a few snifters. … In short, a delight. This is where it all falls apart, though: I don’t drink at all, for religious reasons, which serves as a colossal wet blanket to any and all festivities, as people wonder if they’re being judged. Then when people get tipsy enough to start laughing at things that the sober don’t find funny, I become bored out of my skull. And it never goes beyond that point. Nobody starts dancing on the table tops or wearing lampshades or pulling any of the other hijinks of inebriation that I figure I’m owed if I’m to be the designated ~~buzzkill~~ driver of all time. Furthermore, just because someone is able to crack wise on a blog thread — where you can sit and think a bit before responding — it doesn’t mean you’re anything approaching a hoot in real life. Were we all to meet in the meatworld, I fear we’d sit around waiting for others to Be Devastatingly Clever while we sat there with dumb grins on our faces. Or, failing that, our obvious lack of social skills (c’mon, who else spends this much time on the Internet?) would compel us to fall all over each other, trying to out-quip each other, but our lack of real-life familiarity would mean we didn’t have a rhythm that works. What I mean to say is that you never have as much fun with your online friends in real life as you do online, because the online fun consists of written texts sans our ugly mugs, nasal voices, annoying laughs, body language, and all those other non-verbal communication elements that supposedly compose 97% of communication. And which, I don’t know about the rest of you, I lack in spades (raaaaacist!). That said, if there really were a Protein Wisdom Amtrak cruise (Dover to D.C., in honor of the veep), I would jump at the chance to attend. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 7:55 pm # You mean the part about killing half of the flowers in your garden? No, the part about how all the men I’ve thus far attracted have been some combination of the following: mama’s boy, narcissist, homosexual (and one was all three). I could say that constitutes something wrong with them, but who is the common denominator? Comment by JHo on 12/18 @ 7:57 pm # dicentra deserves a guest bloggership on the main page. It’s JG’s site but FWIW I’ve thought this for some time. Great stuff, dicentra. Not to diminish it, but what amazes me is that it’s not more intuitive. Of course personal liberty should be intuitive and look what we’ve done to that sorry bastard. And in what name we’ve done it. Welcome to Mad Planet. Comment by JHo on 12/18 @ 7:58 pm # but who is the common denominator? Humanity. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:02 pm # Of course personal liberty should be intuitive and look what we’ve done to that sorry bastard. Personal liberty is intuitive only to those who don’t believe that populations need to be controlled by an iron hand. If you don’t like the scary chaos and uncertainty of democracy and the free market, personal liberty is a small price to pay for stability, predictability, and the comforting weight of a glorious leader, be he dictator, monarch, or enthroned god. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:04 pm # You just need to meet more better guys. You can use the Internet. My friend what used to do phone sex met her husband in a bondage chat room. She teaches elementary school now. I love that story. Comment by Big D on 12/18 @ 8:05 pm # A woman who gets Monty Python is single? Just as I suspected, there is no justice In this world. Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 8:10 pm # Well, I can understand how being the designated buzzkill would lessen the fun for you, dicentra, but someone has to explain to me how I got those weird bruises or why I woke up in the Burger King bathroom. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 8:11 pm # And it never goes beyond that point. Nobody starts dancing on the table tops or wearing lampshades or pulling any of the other hijinks of inebriation that I figure I’m owed if I’m to be the designated buzzkill driver of all time. Oh, I don’t think that would be a problem with this crew. Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 8:12 pm # You wouldn’t even have to stick around, you could just put a few explanatory post it notes on my forehead. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:12 pm # 1. I’m the World’s Worst First Date. Too nervous to relax and have fun, I try to establish my credentials by showing off erudition and mad skillz. Which only impresses the mama’s boys who want me to run their lives for them in their mothers’ stead. The rest run for the hills. 2. For the past 8 years, I’ve been too tired to clean the house, let alone date. 3. Single women far outnumber single men in the LDS church (and probably all of the others). What else do you think that polygamy thing was about? I’m hardly alone in this — the country is chock-full of single women who can’t find someone unattached who is also straight, not screwed up from a bad divorce (and the bad marriage), or living in his parents’ basement while he plays video games, collects Farscape action figures, and eats himself into morbid obesity. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 8:12 pm # I always appreciate someone who knows where my pants are. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:16 pm # Then there’s the Groucho Marx thing, where I’d never join a club who’d have me as a member, and the corollary, where I’d never foist myself on someone I cared about. I’ve got some Issues that I’m not going to air on a blog, and until that’s resolved, there’s not much point looking around. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:17 pm # I think you don’t have to set the whole enchilada as your goal. Comment by JHo on 12/18 @ 8:18 pm # Personal liberty is intuitive only to those who don’t believe that populations need to be controlled by an iron hand. That is a chilling statement. Consider the derangement it takes to pine to consolidate power elsewhere at the expense of your own liberty at home: Hoping to go through the only life you have handcuffed by mere ex-peers — generally the dysfunctional from what we surely know about the nature of power — who you’ve never met and who reject any of nature’s checks and balances until it’s too late. No, really its embracing that one benevolent service that sips from the great gushing faucet of free stuff and to which you attach your feeding tube. Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 8:19 pm # Heh, not finding your pants almost always correlates to The Awkward Breakfast. Well, I’m convinced. I need to stop drinking. Was this all a clever ploy to hide the eventual intervention? Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:20 pm # You might could have Issues but people are like that, dicentra. Just don’t internalize your singleness. I used to live with a therapist. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 8:27 pm # Can we talk about oxycodone instead, maybe? Or for a serious buzz-kill, does anyone care to re-read the Ed Morrissey thread? Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:28 pm # In other news, here are two interesting stories about my co-workers. One saved up her money and is going to buy kitteh number five today, an F3 Savannah. She’s already got a Bengal and a few “mutts.” I would love to have my own personal leopard, but Savannahs sound like they need more attention than I’d want to give a pet. Sounds like the kind of cat you’d get if you were a dog person. The other has been missing for almost two weeks, and it doesn’t look good. She worked on my floor, spitting distance from my cube, though I never actually met her. I’m sure I walked past her, though, without registering her face. My PM in Oakland is freaked out totally and insists that she know our work schedules all the time, the team being in three locations. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:29 pm # I thought it was a nice holiday topic, sdferr. I don’t know why I thought that… it’s just the time of year when you talk about this stuff. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:31 pm # I think you don’t have to set the whole enchilada as your goal. I’m not particularly interested in the side dishes, ‘feets. Part of it is religious, part of it is because Having A Boyfriend is kind of tiresome after awhile. I’m too old to play the field and I’m settled enough in living alone that I don’t want a roommate who isn’t bound to me by covenant and law. Comment by B Moe on 12/18 @ 8:35 pm # Or, failing that, our obvious lack of social skills (c’mon, who else spends this much time on the Internet?) I spend a lot of time on the internet because I tend to be a little too entertaining when I go out. Pat Frey isn’t the only humorless prick with a badge, believe it or not. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:38 pm # You definitely shouldn’t compromise anything for an enchilada. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 8:41 pm # No, really it’s embracing that one benevolent service that sips from the great gushing faucet of free stuff and to which you attach your feeding tube. I’m not talking only about the West’s gentle decline into stifling bureaucracy, I’m also thinking of humanity as a whole, with the monarchs and emperors and pharaohs and the desire that people had to have a leader they could fairly worship, upon whom they could heap praise and adulation, whom they needed to see living in Ultimate Grandeur with wealth untold. Those cultures’ mythologies established the monarchs as rulers by divine decree, which frees the populace from having to decide who ought to be in charge today. Furthermore, the rulers were thought to be qualitatively better at ruling, so there’s no reason for people to think, “hey, why doesn’t the king do this?” And that is the essence of American Exceptionalism: we’re founded on an utter rejection of divine monarchs and superhuman royalty, saying instead that the old hierarchies were a load of rot, and that your bloodlines mattered not a whit when it came to your dignity or your ability to make decisions for yourself or for your municipality. And yeah, we could lose that exceptional formulation if we allow this decay to continue unabated. Desiring a strong, superhuman hand to rule over you is humanity’s default, and I fear that human entropy may overwhelm us yet, as it already took Europe and most of Canada. Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 8:41 pm # dicentra sister, keep running yourself down and I’m going to have to take some vacation time and drive out there and ttthhhwwaaaapppp across the back of the head, Gibbs style. Not only is there someone for someone else…there are usually several someones for someone. Trust me. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 8:42 pm # Well, I’m convinced. I need to stop drinking. Was this all a clever ploy to hide the eventual intervention? That’s diabolical. Despicable, even. AN ATROCITY!!! Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:45 pm # I think he killed her. Cause of the fans and the mysterious wet spot. Them kids aren’t gonna have them no mommy or no daddy. That’s not very festive. Comment by TmjUtah on 12/18 @ 8:45 pm # Dicentra - You might try the Code Red or 9/12 meetups here. Not all the guys who show up are looking for hot protest babes. Some are there looking for free people who understand what free is. Seriously. Anyhoo, I would be happy to joust over coffee or cider or chocolate should I run into you in the city. Mrs. Utah kiboshed my suggestion we get more wives (I’m always willing to meet another culture halfway) way back in ‘91, but I’m all over that “howdy, how’s things” social thing. Beautiful post, ma’am. Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 8:45 pm # Damn you, Pablo! You’re a lying liar, so very given unto lies that sometimes you lie about lies, accidentally speaking truth, which is the most dastardly abomination of them all! Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:46 pm # It had to have been a crime of passion cause he can’t have planned to look so damn guilty. Comment by royf on 12/18 @ 8:48 pm # Global warming is a “new religion,” not a science, he said in an interview with FoxNews.com. Czech President Klaus: Global Warming Not Science, but a ‘New Religion’ “I’m convinced that after years of studying the phenomenon, global warming is not the real issue of temperature,” said Klaus, an economist by training. “That is the issue of a new ideology or a new religion. A religion of climate change or a religion of global warming. This is a religion which tells us that the people are responsible for the current, very small increase in temperatures. And they should be punished.” Do you think the Czech’s would trade straight up for Zero? Nah not a chance, at least I’m half Czech if worse come to worse maybe I can claim political asylum. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/18 @ 8:49 pm # If you can’t get enough of the personal attacks, be sure to visit the Pub, where “livelihood” gets the scare quotes! Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 8:53 pm # dicentra and hf I read that story earlier and had that sinking feeling that husband is the culprit. If he hasn’t offered to take a lie detector that kinda seals it for me. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:54 pm # I hate a lot of the things they say. I hope it’s over. The ugly part. I can’t read those letters though cause of I bet you can’t unread them. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 8:56 pm # His choice of attorney is also sort of a grim sign I thought Darleen. Comment by Joan of Argghh! on 12/18 @ 9:03 pm # A great post, Dicentra. I wrote three different responses in the Pub today and erased them all. They pretty much amounted to me positing that Patterico is used to a jury he can lead, not one that can read. Which would explain his proclivity for content, since structure is a tedious taskmaster and juries have no patience for it. Even friendly ones. Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 9:04 pm # Joan Patterico is used to a jury he can lead, not one that can read. BRAVA!!! Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 9:04 pm # More a crime of “Fuck You, you lying liar!” If such things were a crime. I’m told that prosecutors love them some turncoats. I may have been misinformed. Comment by Blake on 12/18 @ 9:11 pm # Yeah, that guy more than likely offed his wife. You don’t normally get the lawyer until after you’ve been hounded and badgered by the police for a while. This guy had his lawyer in what, 10 days or so? Sad. Comment by Joan of Argghh! on 12/18 @ 9:13 pm # Saying that, and understanding how juries are picked, I would never hesitate to have Patterico as my lawyer if I ever found myself in the dock. He knows his audience, the game, and the strategies of shifting the ground and redirecting in order to cast doubt and confusion into an issue. Useful stuff in an uncertain legal arena of “peers.” Comment by bh on 12/18 @ 9:15 pm # I did get a kick out it, Pablo, when he asked that Some Guy From Chicago what he thought about it last night. He kinda forgot to give any of the relevant details. Namely that you hadn’t done what he said. And that he was publicly accusing you of something false. And that he publicly excerpted what he wanted from the email himself. All before you did anything. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 9:24 pm # Such is dealing with ….(No, Pablo…don’t say weaselly teenage psychotic douchebags) lawyers. That said, Col. John is tops. It’s the 99% of them that give the rest a bad name. Comment by Mikee on 12/18 @ 9:26 pm # I come each friday looking for the armadillo, and end up in this sort of stuff. Amazing. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 9:32 pm # j’all catch comrade thor’s ankle snapping jibe? Wonder if Patterico did and found it threatening but passable? Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 9:39 pm # Not only is there someone for someone else… there are usually several someones for someone. There may be. But you have to meet them first, and you have to be up to meeting them, and you have to be willing to do fun things after you meet them, and you have to have the ability to warm up to people shortly after meeting them and not need several weeks of benign contact before you’re not terrified of being nice to someone who could be a stalker or worse, or of getting into a situation where you have to tell them thanks but no thanks and you don’t want to say that it’s because he has the personality of dishwater. And then you cry for days because you had to do it. Not worth it to me right now. Maybe after I get my health back for an extended period (the large vitamin D doses seem to be helping, but who knows how long that will last). Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 9:40 pm # Yeah, that guy more than likely offed his wife. She stayed home and let him take her two young boys out for a camping trip in the middle of the night, during a blizzard. Right. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 9:43 pm # here is a song what came to my head. I link it a lot cause that’s how many times it comes to my head. Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 9:43 pm # Did he-who-shall-not-be-named post here sdferr, or at Patterico’s… “Cuz he SWORE! that his “nick” was being sock-puppeted by someone else and that he hadn’t posted at PW since being banned. Comment by Pablo on 12/18 @ 9:45 pm # Yeah, he’s going down, eventually. Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 9:46 pm # Well, good luck to you Dicentra, I hope you feel really good and soon! Because you should at least have as high an opinion of yourself as we in the PW commentariat have of you… And, what is “Farscape” anyway? A movie, TV show, or series of novels? Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 9:48 pm # Farscape you can get the whole series at Amazon on dvd. It just came out. It’s brilliant and I think you can credit it with turning sci fi to a more dark place and away from the dirty socialist pansies in space Star Trek kind of place. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 9:48 pm # oh, he’s not posting at PP under thor. He’s using phi slamma jamma. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 9:49 pm # It’s not very expensive either. Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/18 @ 9:54 pm # Funny thing, sdferr, is that thor, not in a million years, would say that to Jeff’s face. The part about breaking just his ankle. Thor’s a loon, so I guess he is one of patterico’s target market. Comment by B Moe on 12/18 @ 9:55 pm # Such is dealing with ….(No, Pablo…don’t say weaselly teenage psychotic douchebags) lawyers. That said, Col. John is tops. It’s the 99% of them that give the rest a bad name. The more lawyers I discuss intentionalism with the more I realize how little our legal system is based on honesty. What’s worse is I don’t know how else one could be. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 9:58 pm # Farscape is also available on Netflix for instant playing. Just added it to my queue. Didn’t see it because it was originally aired on cable. Comment by B Moe on 12/18 @ 9:59 pm # Funny thing, sdferr, is that thor, not in a million years, would say that to Jeff’s face. He might, he is extremely proud of his ability to take a punch. He bragged about being punched in the face thousands of times. Very strange little dude. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:02 pm # I didn’t know it was on Netflix. I might re-watch it. I just watched The Riches on Hulu. It was the best tv I’d seen in forever and ever. It was America. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:03 pm # I like thor I just wish he wouldn’t be so mean. Comment by Bob Reed on 12/18 @ 10:06 pm # Thankx for the sci-fi tip y’all. But now i have to call it a night, since part of having a large family nearby is all of the social obligations on and around holidays… Oh-Dark-Thiry I’m headin’ for New Jersey for the day…Not sure whether I can hold my breath that long though… All the best, and talk to you fine folks over the weekend… Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:08 pm # Aren’t you headed into a snowstorm or somesuch Bob? Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/18 @ 10:11 pm # B Moe, no, he wouldn’t. First off, I remember the 1,000 punches to the face thing. Bullshit. Unless he’s counting his niece’s and nephew’s slaps. Nobody, but the biggest pussy on this planet would take even a fraction of that many punches to the face. He was trying to establish some kind of tough guy persona, but he came out looking like a lying fool. I’ve lost fights and that made me tougher, but not that way. Thor’s whole existence is fantasy. “Very strange little dude” indeed. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:12 pm # Manhattan is to be getting 4-5 inches unless it goes out to sea. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:14 pm # Good night Bob. Farscape also has space girls. Cause of they’re essential to the plot. Comment by geoffb on 12/18 @ 10:14 pm # OT for Bob Reed. You may find this interesting. The sinking of the IJN battlecruiser Kirishima during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:16 pm # It certainly looks like something in this picture hf, something I’d seen many times when I lived up there. We got quite a bit of rain off this system last night, but outside residual wind it left outta here around mid-day. Comment by geoffb on 12/18 @ 10:18 pm # There is another good lawyer around here and that is MikeyNTH. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:22 pm # oh… I’m just repeating what my Manhattan IM buddy said today. That’s the limit of my knowledge there. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 10:22 pm # A few favorite Christmas numbers, those I could find on YouTube. The Sussex Carol by the MoTabs and the King’s Singers. Arranged by Mac Wilburg, the choir’s director and currently the best choral arranger in the country. Angels from the Realms of Glory (tune of Angels We Have Heard on High) by the MoTabs and Norweigan soprano Sissel. Also arranged by Wilburg. And I love the Nigerian carol Betelehemu, but all I could find was a MoTab version to show Wilburg’s choreograhy. The BYU Men’s choir (which he used to direct) does a much better job of it, but I couldn’t find a video of them. The percussionists and solo were drawn from the BYU choir, however. Not bad for a bunch of white people (and one brother) who are kinda stodgy and classically trained. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:30 pm # I will give you a not-really Christmas song but I like it at Christmas. brb Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:31 pm # here… she’s a neat lady Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:32 pm # The Gloria in Daniel Pinkham’s Christmas Cantata has always had my favor dicentra. Drag the slider over to 3:03 if you wanna skip the O Magnum Mysterium that leads this off. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:32 pm # Huh, thought I had the link in there. sorry. Comment by SBP on 12/18 @ 10:33 pm # Outstanding work in the original post, dicentra. I’d have more to say but my brain is still limp from Grading Hell (finished now, thank all that is good and holy in the universe). I do have to disagree with you about the potential for transitioning online relationships into real-life ones. I met my wife online, long before this web thingie existed, and that worked out okay. I refuse to believe someone as brilliant and decent as you doesn’t have a match. Yeah, dating sucks. The payoff when you find the real thing is worth it, though. Worth more than anything else in the world. Bob (if you’re still around) you might want to take plenty of supplies with you. A friend in Jersey just posted something about the local stores being sold out of many items due to panic buying. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 10:39 pm # Via Cake Wrecks, a wonderful Flickr set of snowflake close-ups. Thanks, SBP. I remember Grading Hell and am happy to be quit of it. It killed me to put tons of work into suggestions in a first draft paper and have the student spend exactly no time following my suggestions or instructions. Too much time going to parties and hooking up to think straight. Cream of the crop, yup. Comment by SBP on 12/18 @ 10:41 pm # This Christmasy performance (well, Jesusy, anyway) has been around for a while. I’ll bet it brings a smile even if you’ve seen it before. Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:45 pm # Looking at this randomly chosen snowflake among dicentra’s linked set nudged me to wonder, have any of you all heard any halfway decent explanation of the hexagonal circulation discovered spinning about Saturn’s North Pole? Cause that shit is seriously weirding me out, yo. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:46 pm # bookmarked… i’ve never seen that before spies Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 10:52 pm # ‘feets, I have McKenna’s Christmas album. It’s not as good as her usual, because there seems to be something wrong with her voice. Too over-wrought, IMO. And then they provide instrumental versions of songs where they tried to wipe the vocal track but you can still hear it. sdferr. Thanks for that. I always like to find new Christmas music in a classical or new-age style. Recommendations: The King’s Singers Christmas. Ancient songs done in their marvelous harmonies. The Manhattan Transfer’s An A Capella Christmas. Nice jazzy arrangements without obnoxious embellishments. Only version of “Toyland” I can stand. iTunes Essentials Celtic Christmas. Nice assortment, especially “Wexford Carol” by Dourdán. The MoTab Christmas albums with Sissel (Spirit of the Season) and the King’s Singers (Rejoice and Be Merry!). Positively sublime. Silverwood Quartet, To Drive the Cold Winter Away. All instrumental. Windham Hill Holiday Guitar Collection, various artists on acoustic guitar. All of the Winter’s Solstice albums from Windham Hill, especially II, IV, and V. Comment by Merovign on 12/18 @ 10:55 pm # Happy’s a Scaper? That makes me happy. Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 10:57 pm # SBP, heh on the monks. And as for the thinger in the sky, no I haven’t kept up with the explanations. So I’ll just go with “wormhole” and leave it at that. (LARGE HADRON COLLIDER! THEY DID IT! THOSE SUNZABITCHES REALLY DID IT! /Heston) Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 10:57 pm # i was miserable when the canceled it thanks for telling me about the Christmas album cause it was on my list I found this googling about Saturn and it’s too gorgeously nuts not too share. Comment by Merovign on 12/18 @ 11:01 pm # The target of that link, Happs, is the canonical example of what S.I. Hiyakawa meant when he said “Who you are speaks so loudly to me that I cannot hear what you are saying,” and in a way that’s at least 75% more creepy. So how ya doin? Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 11:07 pm # Give this a look see dicentra. These may be hard to find today, I do not know. But I can pretty much guarantee them to be worth the search. This one in particular may interest you maybe? Comment by geoffb on 12/18 @ 11:10 pm # My Maternal Grandmother’s where we, when I was young, gathered for Christmas day always had a complete Handel’s Messiah directed by Leopold Stokowski on multi- records playing continuously. I have the set by haven’t played in quite a while as the record turntable is not in an easy location to use and 6 discs with 12 sides is a lot. With the purchase of a usb turntable I mentioned on another thread I hope to have it all put into a digital form so I can once again here it play this year. That’s my favorite Christmas music. Comment by happyfeet on 12/18 @ 11:13 pm # Me I’m good. I started my holidays today. The last two weeks have been brutal. It’s good to see yo back around. You went away forever. I have to go to dinner now. Comment by geoffb on 12/18 @ 11:18 pm # Re: Saturn’s North Pole. A quote. I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe…that we have not yet explained everything. G’Kar Comment by Patterico on 12/18 @ 11:40 pm # Pablo suggested I post this again: Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: I READILY ADMIT TO THREATENING TO BEAT CERTAIN PEOPLE’S ASSES. And you know what? I’d still do it to most of them if we ever met up. So? Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: Scott Jacobs is one of those guys I mentioned that if I ever met him in person, I’d leave him in a heap, mewling like a baby pussy. Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: Hey, listen: Doc Weasel is a cover band. The guy who runs their site, Kenny, is a 140lb unpaid roadie and all around lackey living at home with mom, posting amateur porn and tugging at his own little doc weasel. If I ever run into him, I’ll break him like a toothpick. Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: Note that I said if I ever ran across some of these people, I’d have no problem — and feel no guilt — about snapping their ACL. Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: As I said earlier, why the fuck should I be embarrassed about telling people who’ve said some vile things to me that I’d be happy to meet up with them in person, where I’d give them the opportunity to say those same vile things directly to my face. Just before I broke their fucking ankles? Jeff Goldstein’s threat of violence: I’ve probably gotten into it with about a half dozen people over the years, some of whom if I ran into them in the street I would beat their ass without hesitation. From: Jeff Goldstein: Arguing “On Point” — With Threats of Violence. Thanks to Pablo for the suggestion. It’s a good one. Sorta makes it clear who wrote this post. Comment by DarthRove on 12/18 @ 11:41 pm # dicentra: Have you considered eHarmony? Mrs. Darth and I found each other that way, and we were both very pleased with how they do their thing. If you want to ask me anything about it, ask Jeff for my email, I’ll be glad to share with you. Oh. And your post rocks. And the Saturn thing is freaky. And I prefer my Christmas music in a jazz or Celtic genre, although Bruce Cockburn has a really good Christmas album IMHO. It’s bedtime for Bonzo now. G’nite, all. Comment by Merovign on 12/18 @ 11:41 pm # Well, Happ’s, I hope your food’s not problematic, to round out the hat trick of sci-fi refs in the last few posts. I spent about 5 months working my khatousis off, little time for anything else. We’ll see what happens after Christmas. With any luck I’ll hang around a bit. Good to see y’all too, except the idiot trolls, who are what they have always been. Comment by wow on 12/18 @ 11:42 pm # Yes, spamming the blog with your cut and paste comments across multiple posts won’t strike anyone as slightly crazy. Been drinking tonight, Patrick? Comment by DarthRove on 12/18 @ 11:43 pm # But before I go, will somebody please tell Patterico where his fucking strawberries are?!??!? Comment by Merovign on 12/18 @ 11:46 pm # Ultimately, without context, everything is sinister. Also, not so much with the tree example, in fair Verona, where our scene was laid. Which is more than I can say for myself. Shit, that was my outside voice again, wasn’t it? Comment by Merovign on 12/18 @ 11:47 pm # Pat, your fucking strawberries are at the Super Wal-Mart. But they’re open 24 hours. Burma-shave. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/18 @ 11:55 pm # Oh, thor has been banned from Patterico’s, apparently. That’s got to be a low point in thor’s career. Also: Patterico has done a front-page post on how racisty RSM is for having made that bumper sticker comment. He has absolutely no idea how silly all of this is making him look. Comment by Patterico on 12/18 @ 11:57 pm # “Also: Patterico has done a front-page post on how racisty RSM is for having made that bumper sticker comment.” Protein Wisdom commenters reed gud. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:00 am # “He has absolutely no idea how silly all of this is making him look.” I have an idea how silly this makes YOU look, claiming my intent is the opposite of what the post says. Oh well, you said it already. No choice but to double down. GO! Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 12:02 am # Been drinking tonight, Patrick? Serious question. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:04 am # Protein Wisdom commenters reed gud. Your intent is mine to determine, Patterico. What you say is not nearly so important as what you meant by that. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 12:08 am # Again with the violence shtick? For a supposed “bad ass DDA” you’re kind of a sissy. Why don’t you go back to your own site and hide behind mama’s skirt. Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 12:09 am # From the post: “His purposes could range from a desire to coolly analyze content, to a failure to take his lithium during a manic phase, to a malicious desire to discredit and destroy a hated rival for all time, to a pathological inability to Just. Let. Something. Go. Or something else entirely.” Something else entirely could just be that he starts commenting sober and the bad craziness builds up along with his blood alcohol content. If that’s the case, he can get help. And, frankly, we’d all appreciate it if he did. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:11 am # Them intentionalists at Protein Wisdom reed reel gud. I’m not an intentionalist, Patterico. I’m just an engineering type who gets this a whole lot better than you do. It’s only fair to note that you don’t get this intentionalism stuff very well, so my absolute level of proficiency doesn’t have to be all that high. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:14 am # If you get it, Slart, then you’re a liar. My post defends McCain. Liar, or idiot? Which is it? Comment by Tommy the Cat on 12/19 @ 12:16 am # Thanks for all the material, scary smart lawyer dude. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:19 am # If you get it, Slart, then you’re a liar If you get it, Patterico, then you’re a liar. If you truly get it, the endless posting about Letterman’s comments are bad faith arguments, and their content is inconsistent with your purported knowledge. I mean, I’m not saying you’re drunk, making comments like these, but if you’re not, it’s reckless and irresponsible for you to be behaving in a way that leads us to conclude that you are. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 12:19 am # Getting this better than Pat ain’t a real high bar to clear. I concur with you Slart. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:22 am # Slart: “Also: Patterico has done a front-page post on how racisty RSM is for having made that bumper sticker comment.” From my post: My view of the “bumper sticker” is informed by my reading through these threads, and my conclusion is that [Charles] Johnson’s cartoonish characterizations aren’t on the mark. In context, McCain’s proposed bumper sticker appears to be a joke . . . Lie much? Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:24 am # This man has absolutely no sense of irony. This is a deeply, deeply clueless person we’re dealing with. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:24 am # “Thanks for all the material, scary smart lawyer dude.” That’s funny. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 12:26 am # You jest Slart. Whereas, TommytheCat is just a murderer. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:26 am # “This man has absolutely no sense of irony. This is a deeply, deeply clueless person we’re dealing with.” You were being ironic when you claimed my post meant the opposite of what it means. You have learned well. When you fuck up, call it irony. Every time someone lies about me here, I’ll post the violence comment on another thread here. Should have the whole site covered by morning. Comment by Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace on 12/19 @ 12:26 am # I adore ham. Simply adore it! Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:28 am # I mean, I might as well be talking to something inorganic, but possessed of some decent amount of momentum. Ceres, for example. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:28 am # There we go. Another lie, please? Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 12:30 am # Hmmmm let’s see: Lives in LA Uptight Dislikes violence A bit off You’re Dennis from All American Burger aren’t you? You shouldn’t have fired Brad. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 12:31 am # Oh, and we’re now all the way back to Phoebe Cates. IBIMB. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 12:33 am # Hi Thor. How have you been? Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 12:34 am # “Every time someone lies about me here, I’ll post the violence comment on another thread here.” Stop drinking! Please! Comment by Ishmael on 12/19 @ 12:36 am # Captain Frey-hab continues his pursuit of the Great White Racist and the Great Jew Whale. Comment by SBP on 12/19 @ 12:40 am # I’m seeing a lot of (Trollhammered) in this thread. Too bad; there was an interesting conversation going on earlier. Oh, well. Back to rereading I, Claudius in preparation for Christmas with the relatives… Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 12:40 am # Slart wins the prize! Try picturing Dennis’ face while reading Pat’s posts. “Did you threaten this man with violence in any way? You’re fired.” Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 12:41 am # You guys are right. I can’t possibly keep up. All I can do is try. It’ll all get nuked, eventually. “I banned Jeff Goldstein for physically threatening my readers. Jeff Goldstein banned me for telling his readers about it.” I’ll be saying that soon enough. You guys are just speeding the process is all. Comment by Ishmael on 12/19 @ 12:47 am # The White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some deep men feel eating in them, till they are left living on with half a heart and half a lung. That intangible malignity which has been from the beginning; to whose dominion even the modern Christians ascribe one-half of the worlds; which the ancient Ophites of the east reverenced in their statue devil; — Ahab did not fall down and worship it like them; but deliriously transferring its idea to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it. All that most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the lees of things; all truth with malice in it; all that cracks the sinews and cakes the brain; all the subtle demonisms of life and thought; all evil, to crazy Ahab, were visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Moby-Dick. He piled upon the whale’s white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart’s shell upon it. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 12:55 am # “Let all the poisons that live in the mud hatch out”, and then have a Happy New Year as they writhe and wither in the glare. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 1:04 am # Yeah, Jeff will ban you. Let’s start a pool. My Money’s on the 12th of never. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 1:07 am # Oh look. It’s Pat. If I had control of this post, I’d be deleting every “LIAR!” accusation that shows up. The way the word is being used is entirely specious, its emotive value being prized above its denotative power. Jeff Goldstein banned me for telling his readers about it. You only wish. Jeff doesn’t give a rat’s back porch whether you are able to compile links to his “threats of violence” and show them to us. And besides, I asked you to post my threats of violence hither and yon as well, but thus far you have not. You’re letting me down, Pat. I must insist that in this thread you respond first to my arguments before deviating into ad hominem and recommended Christmas albums. So tell me in your own words, Pat: What is the difference between a content argument and a structure argument? And why, when Jeff presents a structure argument, do you persist in answering with content arguments? And when Jeff maintains that your content argument does not address his structure argument, do you classify that as a lie? Three easy questions. Answer them or get off my thread. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 1:10 am # geoffb: I think I’ll inscribe that in all my Christmas cards. Thanks! Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 1:11 am # Banning here is done at the individual level thanks to SBP. And thanks too, to SBP. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 1:13 am # Thank SBP he mentioned I Claudius which triggered that from memory of the TV series. Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 1:15 am # Jeff, A little note to abuse@mediatemple.net is probably in order here. Cut and paste the contents of comment 178 above and include it in your note. Depending on how peppy you’re feeling, there are some other potential remedies available. Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 1:16 am # “You guys are right. I can’t possibly keep up. All I can do is try.” That’s a hint. “It’ll all get nuked, eventually. “I banned Jeff Goldstein for physically threatening my readers. Jeff Goldstein banned me for telling his readers about it.” I’ll be saying that soon enough.” That’s another. “You guys are just speeding the process is all.” And another. So, threat of a lawsuit, coupled with a proposed remedy. I could be entirely wrong. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 1:21 am # You don’t get it, do you Pat? The threats of violence that Jeff levels at his enemies don’t make us think less of him. THEY MAKE US REALLY HOT. Well, all of the desperate single females that haunt his blog. Which I guess comes down to me, now that I think of it. The rest of Jeff’s sycophantic cesspool-dwellers likewise think that it’s tewtally kewl that our host is a Real Live Tough Guy. Whose side do you think we want to be on: the side of the guy who can beat the tar out of us you, or the one who thinks that Internet threats of violence are an actual problem? So much so that he posts them all over the Tough Guy’s blog in the hopes of shaming him in front of God and everyone but instead raising the Tough Guy’s esteem in the eyes of his fans? Surely, you jest. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 1:21 am # Then I just did him a favor with the last two comments. More HOTNESS! Comment by RIP Ford on 12/19 @ 1:24 am # Are you drunk Patterico? Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 1:24 am # Yes, Pat. Please stop. I’m about to burst into flames. I can’t take it any more. Again, answer my questions three or get off my thread. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 1:26 am # The other threads are better places to go anyway. I already left the comment on this one. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 1:40 am # Such a cheerful time of year. The jolly elf so busy placing presents under each and every tree of heaven. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 1:43 am # Pat is intimidated by a girl. A scary smart girl, but a girl nonetheless. Comment by happyfeet on 12/19 @ 1:50 am # you back around I mean… hah that little correction never got sent before I left… looks like I missed some stuff Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 1:52 am # Isn’t it about time to start ignoring Pattrollico and let him go back to his little bridge? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:55 am # I counted about 25 cut and pastes. A meltdown of epic proportions. One for the ages. Goldstein, you magnificent bastard Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 1:58 am # Okay. Alternate reading is that PF is simply saying that he’s going to keep spamming this blog when we give him a hard time. I initially didn’t think that was the correct interpretation because it is so fucking stupid. His end game is to be banned from this site? Seriously, if anyone has any strawberries, please hand them over. I’m now worried about him and I don’t even particularly like the guy. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:02 am # Isn’t it about time to start ignoring Pattrollico and let him go back to his little bridge? You mean by being offline all night, having pizza with my family and then watching a movie with my wife? Can’t really ignore the obsessive loon much moreso than that. Then I check my email and find messages about how some Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney (Patrick Frey) is literally spamming my site. To punish me. Because of slights he feels my commenters have visited on His Majesty. Pay attention, people: THIS GUY SENDS CALIFORNIANS TO JAIL! And their mothers, if they don’t just shut up and take it. Two words, Frey: Betty Fucking Ford. Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 2:06 am # Jeff, abuse@mediatemple.com is the owner of an IP address that is pertinent here — the IP address of patterico.com. I’d suggest that you ask for their advice on how to deal with harassing activity originating from that domain. I’d be really surprised if they didn’t have an item in their terms of service. And, best of all, it’s based onshore, in beautiful southern California. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 2:10 am # Truth = harassment War = peace Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 2:13 am # Seriously, if anyone has any strawberries, please hand them over. I’m now worried about him and I don’t even particularly like the guy. Strawberries are appropriate. The constant “he threatens physical violence” bullshit leads me to believe his drink is the daiquiri. He’ll need them. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 2:13 am # “Pay attention, people: THIS GUY SENDS CALIFORNIANS TO JAIL!” Happened again today. Poor guy. All he did was shoot at a cop. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:18 am # Kudos to you for keeping the realm safe from such marauders, good Knight! And if it buys you an ocean view and fat state pension? So much the better! Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 2:20 am # So you did your job today. So did I. Has nothing to do with this thread. Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 2:23 am # In the cyberworld, even the truth, if told too many times, in inappropriate places, or by inappropriate means can be considered harassment. It doesn’t have to break laws — it only has to violate terms of service. And ISP lawyers tend to write their terms of service to discourage such behavior, whether on the side of the angels or not. You might want to call it a night, counselor, unless you really want to go hunting for a new webhost on Monday. ISP lawyers and sysadmins would much rather refund your money than get caught in the middle of legal action. Bad publicity, don’t you know. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 2:25 am # trfogey, Ah, the thuggery! Here is a way to combat the truth by causing harmful consequences to the man who tells it. Truly you have learned well at the feet of the ass-sitter. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 2:26 am # Any other thuggish ways to combat the truth? Come on! SOMEONE must have an idea!! Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 2:28 am # trfogey, Your ass-sitting hero has chosen to seed Google with references to me. I must defend myself. Which I am doing. He has made a show of not banning me. That allows me to defend myself. Which I appreciate. However, I suspect we are headed somewhere . . . “I banned Jeff Goldstein for physically threatening my readers. Jeff Goldstein banned me for telling his readers about it.” That would be a good line. If it happened. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:30 am # Shhh. He’s busy spamming the archives now. Making a “Jeff Goldstein Google Bomb!” Because this is what Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorneys do on their weekend evenings. Only problem is, I’m cool with it. I’ve dealt with four or five guys over the years who I wouldn’t mind giving the chance to repeat to my face what they’ve said about me or my family from behind their keyboards. Simple as that. I blame ABC After School Specials. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 2:30 am # Come on! SOMEONE must have an idea!! I have one. You should start your own blog. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:31 am # This guy can convince himself he’s right about everything. It’s marvelous to watch. Comment by Merovign on 12/19 @ 2:33 am # Has to be gin drinks. Vodka may make you mean, but only Gin can make you a cartoon character. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:34 am # Worse still. It’s wine. Which, hey, at least it’s not Zima, I guess. Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 2:36 am # That’s your deal, counselor. I’m just a sysadmin who does his part to fill the potholes on the information superhighway. If you want to rant against Jeff on your bandwidth and your dime, have at it. Doing it on his bandwidth and his dime is abuse of the system, and, having had to deal with pompous pricks like you in situations like this, I’m happy to offer Jeff a tip or two to get you to stop freeloading on the system. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 2:36 am # I must defend myself. Which I am doing. No, you are embarrassing yourself. He has made a show of not banning me. It is a show. That laughing you hear? We’re not laughing with you. “I banned Jeff Goldstein for physically threatening my readers. Jeff Goldstein banned me for telling his readers about it.” That would be a good line. If it happened. But it won’t. You should hang it up for the night. I expected more from a DDA. Maybe I’ve been watching too much TV. You guys always win on TV. Comment by Duke Lowell on 12/19 @ 2:40 am # Has to be gin drinks. Vodka may make you mean, but only Gin can make you a cartoon character. Tequila. After all, it is Friday. Comment by wow on 12/19 @ 2:44 am # Patrick, just call it a night and go to sleep. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:45 am # I count 4 posts of mine in the last 5 months that have “Patrick Frey” or “Patterico” in the title — 2 of which were in direct response to Frey’s post about my having had the audacity to bring up his (possible) anti-semitic slur. Go to Frey’s site. My name appears in the title of 10 posts in the last week. Couple that with the 30 or so cut-and-past comments he’s added this evening, and the hundreds of comments he’s left in the last several days (I am not permitted to comment on his site), and I think we can begin to establish a pattern. But hey, it’s me who is “seeding Google.” Yup. Betty. Ford. Clinic. Comment by trfogey on 12/19 @ 2:55 am # Best of all, he’s contributing to the further seeding of the information he objects to. Of course, he doesn’t know how Google really works, so he’s clumsily trying to replicate the unknown advantage you have. And every time he bellows for an answering post from you, Google clicks up a few more references to your stuff and he undoes what he had accomplished. Living proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, nd that the biggest problem with most computers is the loose connection in front of the keyboard Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 3:06 am # A Harlequin with your jelly beans so colorful and bright. Me, I’m more Flounder with the marbles, waiting to become Abrahamo Lincolni. Comment by Molon Labe on 12/19 @ 3:55 am # ‘Intentionally naked’ Fairfax County man appealing his conviction [...] He said he made coffee, did some cleaning, made breakfast, packed some more. He said he never stood in front of either the open doorway or the front window, was merely going about his morning business and didn’t intend to expose himself. [...] Prosecutor Frey then asked for jail time for Williamson. Comment by Merovign on 12/19 @ 4:08 am # Hey Jeff, you figure it’s the same cheap wine Cynn used to drink on “bad days?” Good times, good times. Wait, bad times. The fact that I mix those up explains a LOT. Comment by B Moe on 12/19 @ 5:04 am # Any other thuggish ways to combat the truth? Come on! SOMEONE must have an idea!! You could spam up a blog with passive/aggressive nonsense rather than responding on point to a very good argument. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 5:16 am # Wow…. what a bunch of delusionals…. As far as threatening Mr Frey’s ISP, good liuck with that And Jeff, asking people to repeat to your face mwant exactly what? What are you going to do EXACTLY? Comment by B Moe on 12/19 @ 5:27 am # Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 1:46 am Also, you’re a poopyhead! That’s about the level we’re both at. Aren’t we supposed to be grown adults? Sorry, I know I’m supposed to keep up the anger. But I had a good day. And this all seems kind of funny right now. Considering how he spent the next few hours of his happy fun time, who are you calling delusional? Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 5:59 am # B Moe Sure – misquoting people, not reading posts, jumping in with both feet – writing a post about structural vs content? (I think he must have meant Intent?) Then using bizarre made up entries of structure (which he must of meant content – structure refers to the construction of the sentence not what was actually in it – thats what content means – I know its confusing but intent is what should have followed not content) sigh Comment by B Moe on 12/19 @ 6:10 am # Thanks Eric. That makes it so much clearer. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 7:00 am # #238 is right up there with meya and cleo for unconscious humor. Priceless. Comment by JHo on 12/19 @ 7:08 am # I can’t possibly keep up. All I can do is try. There’s a name for that and it’s got to be “publicly maintaining the honor of the position”. Comment by No One You Know on 12/19 @ 7:28 am # Patterico has taken to spamming near dead comment threads? Can the guy be a bigger schmuck? I figured I’d use the yiddish since, anti-semite that he is, that’s got to sting just a little more. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 7:29 am # And Jeff, asking people to repeat to your face mwant exactly what? What are you going to do EXACTLY? ATROCITY!! Comment by Rusty on 12/19 @ 7:39 am # 69.Comment by dicentra on 12/18 @ 7:55 pm # You mean the part about killing half of the flowers in your garden? No, the part about how all the men I’ve thus far attracted have been some combination of the following: mama’s boy, narcissist, homosexual (and one was all three). I could say that constitutes something wrong with them, but who is the common denominator? You meet those kind of guys at church. You need to hang out at the stock car races. Comment by DarthRove on 12/19 @ 7:41 am # Patrick Frey is becoming the Left Coast’s Keef Olbermann. But less pleasant. Comment by Rusty on 12/19 @ 7:44 am # 92.Comment by Darleen on 12/18 @ 8:41 pm # dicentra sister, keep running yourself down and I’m going to have to take some vacation time and drive out there and ttthhhwwaaaapppp across the back of the head, Gibbs style. Not only is there someone for someone else…there are usually several someones for someone. Trust me. Yep. There’s a lid for every pot. My grandma used to say that. Then she said,” But don’t put an aluminum one on a cast iron pot because then there’ll be galvanic corrosion. Stinless steel or even another iron lid is OK though.” Grandma was pretty smart. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 7:46 am # dicentra, you make way too much sense! Comment by Carin on 12/19 @ 7:48 am # I think Rusty is on to something at 244. They always say church is a good place to met folks, but you gotta go with what experience has shown you. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 7:49 am # So what exactly does Jeff mean when he wants some people to talk to his face What is Jeff’s “content” – I mean intent? Comment by SBP on 12/19 @ 7:55 am # You guys always win on TV. I think he’s well on his way to becoming the Hamilton Burger of the blogosphere, actually. Comment by Rusty on 12/19 @ 7:56 am # 144.Comment by sdferr on 12/18 @ 10:45 pm # Looking at this randomly chosen snowflake among dicentra’s linked set nudged me to wonder, have any of you all heard any halfway decent explanation of the hexagonal circulation discovered spinning about Saturn’s North Pole? Cause that shit is seriously weirding me out, yo. Hexagons appear in nature all the time. Think beehive or plant cell structure. It would be very wierd if it were square or triangular. It probably has something to do with the occilation of the poles. Precession. Comment by Rusty on 12/19 @ 8:15 am # This is a great post, dicentra. You can learn a lot here and I have. Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/19 @ 8:16 am # #64 dicentra: Probably nothing. You forgot to take into account what’s wrong with me. When I was involved in a nationally-known charity years ago, I once knew a woman in her forties, an ordained pastor, who was bummed about her spinsterhood. I left and then ten years later a bunch of us met up for a reunion of sorts. She was happily married. So, don’t write yourself off. We come to every stage of our lives as apprentices; life surely has some hidden goodies in store for you. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 8:26 am # Erm .. one doesn’t have to be “married” to be happy and self-evident. Dicentra’s one of my heroines (smart, funny, and in control of her own words.) I just happen to admire that. It’s important, only, in that y’all see the same. Comment by Lazarus Long on 12/19 @ 8:30 am # “What is Jeff’s “content” – I mean intent?” To make Pat look like a fool. And doing a fine job he is. Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/19 @ 8:32 am # #254 Diana Just in case that’s one of her heart’s desires, is why I mention it. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 8:36 am # #256 TSI I know. I just thought I’d mention that some of us enjoy our own company … and of course, yours :) Comment by Lazarus Long on 12/19 @ 8:36 am # Hey, Pat, why don’t you use the Grayson solution? After all, you are a DDA, right? Oh. Link: http://hotair.com/archives/2009/12/19/grayson-imprison-my-critic-for-five-years/ Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/19 @ 8:46 am # #230 Jeff G But hey, it’s me who is “seeding Google.” “This is an old saying, Atula, it is not a saying of today. ‘They blame the man who is silent, they blame the man who speaks too much, and they blame the man who speaks too little.’ No man can escape blame in the world.” –The Dhammapada, c 3rdC BC Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 8:49 am # So what is Jeff meaning when he said he wants certain people to say things to his face? Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/19 @ 8:51 am # Have some Korean Christmas lights, y’all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCa3SVpLKEQ Click the HD button and embiggen the screen Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 12/19 @ 8:58 am # #260 EricPWJohnson People have used the distance and anonymity of the internet to verbally abuse him & his family over the years. If they were deprived of the distance and anonymity, they’d swiftly regret said abuse. At least that’s how I understand the content of the structure of his discourse on that subject… Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 9:10 am # The intent of PeeWee’s question in #260 may not have been to illustrate how unintelligent he is, but that’s the result. Comment by Mr. W on 12/19 @ 9:13 am # That is what is wonderful about the internet. For better or worse, you get a window into people’s inner selves with none of the usual civilizational filters. It also shows that a few people are in desperate need of a first-class ass whipping. Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 9:26 am # WTF? I go to bed, thinking a thread is kind of slowing down, and the obsessive Mr. Frey jumps all over it? We have a pattern and it isn’t looking good for DDA Frey. We’re I his boss, I’d have him taking a drug test. This is not normal behavior. Comment by Ishmael on 12/19 @ 9:31 am # I must defend myself. Which I am doing. “… to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee.“ Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 9:53 am # “Hey, Pat, why don’t you use the Grayson solution?” I believe the answer to speech is more speech. Which reminds me. Since people are continuing the speech, so shall I. Be right back. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 9:56 am # oh … fuck. Really?!? Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 9:56 am # Pat, If you keep going like this, we’re going to start charging for all the rope you use. We can’t keep giving it away free. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 9:56 am # Blake, Thanks for the excuse. Be right back. Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 10:04 am # Pat, I will sit here impatiently on the edge of my seat in breathless anticipation of your next installment in the “I’m obsessed with Jeff Goldstein” comedy. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:05 am # OK. Be right back. Comment by H. Melville on 12/19 @ 10:06 am # Is he mad? Anyway there’s something on his mind, as sure as there must be something on a deck when it cracks. Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 10:09 am # H Mel, Nah, Frey is just baiting us right now. He sees a comment directed at him, drops a brief line then runs away, giggling, thinking we’ve fallen for it and will respond with another lengthy post. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:09 am # He’s now spamming seven-month-old posts with his cut-and-paste. I wonder if his boss has been notified of this behavior? Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:13 am # McGehee: OHNOES! Someone is commenting on a blog and posting links! Let’s try to harm him at work for this behavior! Or maybe just try to make him think we will, in a thuggish attempt to squelch speech! When did this turn into a leftist site? More excuses. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:15 am # Your quote is a keeper, McGehee. So, you know, I’ll keep it. Comment by cesspoolian on 12/19 @ 10:21 am # Remember back when thor was considered the nuttiest troll on this site? Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 10:25 am # Internet verb …. (ed. not standard, but appropriate and updated and edited for your amusement only) frey 1. “to wear” out, to lose, unraveled threads or filibusters at the edge or end; cause to ravel out. [or just laugh] Wrap it up, Frey. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:26 am # The stuff I’m posting is all Jeff’s own words. Pablo suggested I do it. If Jeff feels that it’s a worrisome thing for his words to appear on his site, he can delete them and ban me. I banned him for threatening my commenters. Perhaps he will ban me for telling the world about it. Or, he can stand by his speech. In which case, SPREAD THE WORD! See, McGehee, I don’t respond to threats like yours. When I stop, it will be on my own, for my own reasons. Because I have decided to. I don’t take kindly to thuggery — but I do collect it and remember it. Comment by LTC John on 12/19 @ 10:26 am # Mr. Frey is acting all stalk-y again. This is turning from sad to sadder. Mr. F, look at what you are doing – you spending your very late night/early morning hours insulting blog commenters. Have you nothing less, um, angry to do? I have been following this whole…situation…and if you exhibited this type of behavior in the field, you would be visiting the chaplain or the combat stress team. Stand back and look at how you have been behaving lately. Jabbing the crap out a dishonest newspaper is one thing, becoming a fixated polemicist and not getting enough sleep in order to flame a blog’s comment sections is quite another. I would ask you to step back and take a long look at this past few days. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:26 am # Wrap it up, Frey. Oh. I was done for the day. But, since you told me to stop, I won’t. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 10:27 am # Hey! “House paint” is here. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:28 am # LTC John, I know that everyone here just has my own best interests at heart. You’re all so sweet. Let’s tell the truth one more time. Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 10:28 am # Wow. Just wow. Comment by Ishmael on 12/19 @ 10:28 am # When I stop, it will be on my own, for my own reasons. Because I have decided to. My guess is that a restraining order will be involved. You should start signing your comments as “word warrior”. Comment by jacitelli on 12/19 @ 10:29 am # Are you kidding me?? Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:30 am # “…commenters…” Oh, really? Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:30 am # Anyone else have some thuggery? I’m collecting it. Comment by LTC John on 12/19 @ 10:32 am # Mr. Frey, you have been a very useful person in the efforts to combat bias and misinformation from the likes of the LA Times. Turning into someone dumping cut and paste links into 7 month old threads or chasing down Balko’s twitter feed and the like does not speak well of your stability the past few months. I’d rather think of you as the guy that beats the crap out of the LAT when they show their @$$ than someone who developed a set of strange obsessions and sucumbed to them. But that is fully your choice. Comment by JHo on 12/19 @ 10:33 am # Let’s tell the truth one more time. You’re kinda making a fool of yourself, public servant. Actually what I intend to say is you’re kinda making a fool of yourself. Comment by JHo on 12/19 @ 10:34 am # That could be interpreted as thuggish, LTC John. TRUTH! Comment by LTC John on 12/19 @ 10:34 am # I’m going to go take a break from the Intertubes angriness and see what the kids are up to. ALCON: keep perspective, please. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:34 am # “My guess is that a restraining order will be involved.” Hahahahahahahaha. Look. If Goldstein doesn’t want me repeating his violent threats on his blog, he does not have to: 1) contact my IP host; 2) contact my bosses; 3) get a restraining order; or 4) whatever other stupid ideas you people come up with. All he has to do is ban me. He should have just banned Frisch, too. If he had, he could have saved himself years of grief. But if he bans ME, it will be for telling the truth about his violent threats. Which is ALL I have been doing. Linking his threats of violence, to make it clear who this guy is. Since he’s been seeding Google with crap about me, I have to defend myself. Comment by No One You Know on 12/19 @ 10:35 am # This is too funny. Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 10:36 am # Pat, Just so you know, I don’t give a damn about your “best interests.” Rather, I think you’re batshit crazy. Reader poll: Is Frey batshit crazy? Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:36 am # Indeed it is. Comment by Lazarus Long on 12/19 @ 10:37 am # Um, dude, there are medications that can treat OCD. Just sayin’, is all. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:37 am # “Just so you know, I don’t give a damn about your “best interests.”” Yeah. You sorta have a hard time recognizing irony, huh? I’ll stack up the crazee of Jeff’s threats against the crazee of my publicizing them, any day. Comment by Lazarus Long on 12/19 @ 10:38 am # “I’ll stack up the crazee of Jeff’s threats against the crazee of my publicizing them, any day.” You’d lose. Again. Comment by cesspoolian on 12/19 @ 10:39 am # “All he has to do is ban me. He should have just banned Frsch, too.” Comment by JHo on 12/19 @ 10:39 am # Would you like the last word, Frey? Comment by Lazarus Long on 12/19 @ 10:40 am # I think I got it. Pat is sounding like a Truther, an insane believer in conspiracy theories. Check out some of the crazies here: http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/ And see if I don’t have a point. Comment by Fritz on 12/19 @ 10:41 am # What makes Goldstein’s violent threats so pathetic is that they’re empty, he knows they’re empty, and they’ll always remain empty. The only way that he can justify making them at all is based on their emptiness. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 10:41 am # ahem….and I was saying……. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:43 am # BBH, where ya been man? Good to see yer moniker again. Comment by ThomasD on 12/19 @ 10:43 am # Oh. I was done for the day.* But, since you told me to stop, I won’t. Could somebody verify the IP for these posts? Just to make it official. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 10:43 am # I banned him for threatening my commenters. Despite that being complete horse shit, congratulations. You are now the savior of all 16 of your readers. When I stop, it will be on my own, for my own reasons. Because I* have decided to.* Like when I was 5 and my brother was 8, he jumps on me, hits me with my own hand yelling, “Why are you punching yourself?” We thank you for the insight though, Mr. Patterico. We’ve all heard of the deck chairs on the Titanic. But, up until now, we’d never actually seen one. Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 10:46 am # If you ignore him, he might go away. Or not. I don’t care either way. I haven’t decided yet whether he’s more interesting than the other trolls around here in our little cesspool. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 10:47 am # ps: you left out thespians and xenophobes from your rant-o-gram….and Pelosians, who like the nimble brained, all-organic earthers first followers of St. Sheehan, deserve a demographic category all their own….. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 10:47 am # I have to defend myself. Well, you suck at it. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:51 am # Let’s not steal Frey’s intent. He obviously intends to be obnoxious. Mission accomplished there, counselor. Comment by Patterico on 12/19 @ 10:52 am # “Well, you suck at it.” I may have to step it up later. I have other things going on right now. Sorry. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 10:53 am # Yo sdferr. Nice to see the old gang again. Happy holidays to all you nice people, and you to Goldfarb (Happy Hannakha) Comment by windrider95 on 12/19 @ 10:53 am # How old is Patterico? Anyone know? Comment by cesspoolian on 12/19 @ 10:54 am # “All he has to do is ban me. He should have just banned Frisch, too.” The guy actually drew a parallel (“too”) between himself and Frsch. In his own defense. Wow. Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 10:54 am # I’m guessing about 10. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:55 am # How old is Patterico?* Chronologically or emotionally? Comment by No One You Know on 12/19 @ 10:56 am # Let’s not steal Frey’s intent. He obviously intends to be obnoxious. Mission accomplished there, counselor. Thug. Careful, McGehee, he may collect and remember. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:56 am # Hey BBH, you know what you call a Pelosian whose head has burst open all over the place? An ex-Pelosian! Comment by windrider95 on 12/19 @ 10:56 am # Chronologically…the emotional aspects are evident. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:57 am # Careful, McGehee, he may collect and remember. Egad! You mean he might accuse me of being <gasp> snide? Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 10:58 am # #313 “Some Battles you fight; Some Battles fight you.” Which is it for you? Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:59 am # Gulermo, I think he’s choosing “…and some battles mop the floor with you while you’re screaming for your mommy.” Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 11:00 am # I was just wondering McGehee, you weren’t ~~threatening~~ implying that the boss might look upon these works approvingly, were you? You know, it being Christmas season and all? ;-) Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 11:02 am # I was just wondering McGehee, you weren’t threatening implying that the boss might look upon these works approvingly, were you? Let’s just say that if Frey were to find himself relegated to prosecuting people who steal coins from the Salvation Army bucket in front of Walmart, I might not be surprised. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 11:02 am # Paterrico is a master at hiding his bigotries. I don’t know what any of them are because he hides them so well, but I’m sure he has some because hes right at the top of my thought police list, right after McGehee…. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 11:05 am # But I’m a good man. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 11:06 am # Hokay, coffee break’s over. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 11:08 am # #313 I asked you a simple question. I would appreciate an answer, sans the vitriol, please. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 11:09 am # I may have to step it up later. Well…you let us know when that is (maybe include an asterisk or something) so we’re sure not to miss it. Bated breath on our end and all. I have other things going on right now. Sorry. Of course, of course. As opposed to us stupid Goldstein reading mouth breathers. When you get done Christmas shopping or fucking the prom queen or whatever, you go on and “step it up”. Can’t wait. Comment by Annie Nakkie on 12/19 @ 11:11 am # Patrick Frey, STOP DRINKING! It is obvious you need an intervention. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 11:12 am # Well that settles it then McGehee…..In 2012, when the rapture comes and the end is nih, just before they send me into the bowels of hell I will vouch for you….and Leif Garret of course Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 11:21 am # I’d jump into the Frey frying fray, but I’m aware the dude lives in that cesspool just North of me, and I figure that’s enough misery for anyone to have to endure….. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 11:25 am # …”and Leif Garret of course”. You gotta make him take the bandanna off as a condition for you vouching for him. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 11:27 am # Patterico shows Jeff how to really work out. Comment by John Bradley on 12/19 @ 11:30 am # So Jeff, I’m thinking once you’ve put up the paywall, maybe you should institute some sort of per-comment surcharge. ‘Cause given your curse/gift for attracting obsessive lunatics, you could be rolling in the phat internet moneys, particularly if the aforementioned lunatics have lucrative lawyer-type jobs and plenty of free time. Think of it as a tax on the deranged. A public service, if you will. Comment by John Bradley on 12/19 @ 11:36 am # Joe @ 336 – I’d accuse you of stirring the shit, but this shit has been set on frappe for weeks now… so it’s probably a moot (or “mute” according to some) point. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 11:39 am # ….Since it was your idea, I’d elect you to go as my emissary and make him take it off, which is to say, you have about as much chance of success as the entire male cast of the “Worlds Dumbest Criminals” TV show have of getting in Tonya Harding’s pants, which, come to think of it, is a slam dunk in a heartbeat, so forget that – bad analogy… Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 11:44 am # Pablo suggested I post this again: Jeff’s threat of violence against everybody on Earth. Nipple, nipple. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 11:46 am # BBH, Our TV remotes would definitely like each other. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 11:47 am # #324 I asked because I believe his answer will give more information wrt his intent and motivation. I am often confronted by situations, in which, I have no good resolution afford to me and must choose a course of action that has a less than advantageous outcome, (and a lowered probability of success). I was reading about Dicentra’s intra-personal relationship problems and trying to formulate something cogent to add to the conversation. Someone else wants my attention and now he has it. Don Frey, why do choose to fight this battle here and now? Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 11:57 am # ….and when I have to go out I also pull the batteries out of my remote. I’m not giving that little sob any more opportunities to go on a pay-for-view rampage while I’m out of the house. (Its doubtful that Goldburg’s nipples will cut glass any more. Middle age makes cowards of us all.) Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 11:59 am # Pablo suggested I post this again: Jeff’s violent threats against midgets, sushi chefs, petting zoo creatures, and his accountant from 1997. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 12:05 pm # Frey’s cut and paste comment now appears in 38 threads, many under posts written by others. In case you are keeping a tally. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 12:10 pm # #345 Why? Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 12:11 pm # Today’s word up is sockpuppet – Can you say sockpuppet and use it in a sentence kids? (but can he play the banjo?) Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:12 pm # Pablo suggested I post this again: Jeff’s violent threat against furries and Western Sizzilin’ type buffets. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 12:12 pm # Tally-Ho! Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 12:14 pm # Do Tally-Ho’s get paid by the head count? Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 12:16 pm # Only if you count down. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 12:17 pm # I’m going to the lake. It’s much more quieter there. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:19 pm # Frey’s cut and paste comment now appears in 38 threads… So at any moment the comment itself could become self aware and die of shame. Or change its name to “SkyNet” and nuke us all. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 12:20 pm # Must be a tough job to swallow. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 12:20 pm # And Jeff, asking people to repeat to your face mwant exactly what? What are you going to do EXACTLY? More hypotheticals? Well, first I’d give them the opportunity to repeat the things they’ve said about me or my family directly to me. When they fail to do so, I’ll laugh and call them pussies, or say something like, “yeah, that’s what I figured,” etc. If they wish to do so, we figure out how to proceed from there. Really. Are people so fucking Oprah-fied these days that they wouldn’t actively stand up for themselves or their families without the intercession of police and/or prosecutors? Have we really turned the protection of our names and families entirely over to the state and its employees? No wonder we’re moving ever closer to a permanent nannystate. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:22 pm # I’m going to the lake. It’s much more quieter there. Guess there’s no beer on your boat. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 12:24 pm # Don’t step over the line, BBH. I gotta fly. Comment by Carin on 12/19 @ 12:25 pm # So at any moment the comment itself could become self aware and die of shame. Or change its name to “SkyNet” and nuke us all. Baa haaa haaa… Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 12:26 pm # @356 … the boat’s in storage. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 12:28 pm # An interesting exchange in an interesting thread. All emphases in original. 119. It’s an arbitrary truncation of my opinion, which would be a variant of “misrepresent[ation]“, which was the complaint that you lodged. There are crucial aspects of your arbitrary misrepresentation of my conviction, sir (different from “opinion” because of its reference to facts), that you don’t face. This is exactly why, when you first used the word “context”, I asked you if you know what a context is. It was instructive to note that you had no answer. Comment by Billy Beck — 11/24/2006 @ 2:33 am 122. I love the way Billy Beck uses the word “sir.” It’s the way a lot of people use it nowadays — in other words, as a substitute for “you asshole.” Billy Beck, if that’s the best you can do for dishonesty on my part, sir — that I am making an argument and characterized your position in a way you don’t like — that’s weak, sir. But why don’t I just let you state it yourself? Under what circumstances do you support armed men enforcing the drug laws? Or put more precisely: as to the statement Don’t send armed men to enforce drug laws because people get hurt. What part do you disagree with? Comment by Patterico — 11/24/2006 @ 7:46 am 127. Frey: When “asshole” is what I have in mind, you can take every confidence that that’s what I’ll type, and I will not even consider the snide fakery that you just posted in announcing that when you spell “sir”, you actually mean “asshole” and tried to attribute the transposition to me. Now, then. Whether I “like” your characterization has nothing to do with it. The fact is exactly as I stated earlier. “What part do you disagree with?” The parts that you’re ignoring, just like I said. Comment by Billy Beck — 11/24/2006 @ 11:21 am Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:29 pm # Pablo suggested I post this again: Jeff’s threat against any ham sandwich without cheese. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 12:30 pm # #352 How much is “much”? Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:32 pm # Have fun at the lake Wonder Woman. I love that name. Diana. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 12:33 pm # #352 Sounds relaxing. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 12:33 pm # Pablo suggested Diana get her boat out of storage (backyard would be fine), and load it to the gunnels with beer – I like the way Pablo thinks….. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:35 pm # Frey: JEFF GOLDSTEIN THREATENED OPRAH !!!eleventy!! Comment by serr8d on 12/19 @ 12:36 pm # Anybody have a pic of Patrick? I feel an epic photoshop coming on. serr8d at hotmail dot com. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 12:37 pm # Dicentra: Something for you. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89VnuQgmb7g&NR=1] Comment by Blake on 12/19 @ 12:37 pm # Who knew “willfully obtuse” was part of the job description for an LA DDA. The things you learn on the internet. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 12:41 pm # This time it’s Structural” STRUCTURALISM! Darn you to heck dicentra! Now I need to review my Levi-Strauss. (I suppose I could go straight to Saussure, but I’m an historian so Levi-Strauss Strauss it is! Comment by LBascom on 12/19 @ 12:43 pm # Really. Are people so fucking Oprah-fied these days that they wouldn’t actively stand up for themselves or their families without the interceding of police and prosecutors? No wonder we’re moving ever closer to a permanent nannystate. I was thinking the same thing. Patterico makes me sad for what has happened to the male gender these days. There was I time when people who said the things that prompted Jeffs “threats” had better have an apology ready, or a second picked, because they were about to take a ball of lead, or a foot or two of steel to the guts. Now days, DDA’s see the portrait on the $20 bill, and wet themselves at the violent psychopath pictured. Comment by cranky-d on 12/19 @ 12:46 pm # I’m trying to figure out how jeans figure into structuralism. Perhaps I should ask them. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 12:48 pm # They always say church is a good place to met folks, but you gotta go with what experience has shown you. School and work is where I’ve met them, actually. Comment by Big Bang Hunter on 12/19 @ 12:50 pm # I generally meet them half way…..That’s about all of me they can stand in one shot….. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/19 @ 12:55 pm # Somebody call the National Geographic Channel and let them know they can now film episodes of “Gangland” exclusively in Los Angeles, as the District Attorney is decidedly busy on the intertube and can’t be busied to try anybody right now. The LA gangs are scott free to rape, murder, pillage, and deal drugs while Frey drowns in a pool of his own personal narcissistic shit. Unless you’re a Jew gang in LA. Or a Jew in general. He’ll make time for you guys. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 12:57 pm # Gulermo. Gracias por la música de guitarra. Siempre me gusta una buena pieza de ese tipo de música. Unless you don’t speak Spanish. In which case, thanks for the guitar music. I dig it. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 1:00 pm # Now I need to review my Levi-Strauss. Don’t bother. I’m using the term in my own special way, just to make sure Pat can’t understand. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 1:06 pm # De nada es una gran placer. Mi vida es su vida . Digame. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 1:08 pm # My structuralist training is in narratology, and I have of course studied semiotic, mostly of the CS Peirce / Eco variety. I often use it to map the way narrative works in stories with multiple “embedded” authorships or (potentially) unreliable narrators, like, eg., Garp, or The Time Machine, or My Life as a Man, Gatsby, etc. As a fiction writer, I have always been far more interested in how the author is achieving the effects of the work than I have been with whether I could, say, view Kate Chopin through the lens of certain laws applicable to Cajuns (unless the story contained cues instructing me to look in that direction). Many critical stances can illuminate a complex text; but sadly, too many have become cookie-cutter exercises in turning everything into a critique of capitalism or individual freedom. For those interested, I’d recommend Prince or Bal, or maybe Chatman. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 1:21 pm # Dicentra: I was going to suggest to just keep an open mind and wait, (abide). I met my best friend in a dentists office waiting on an appointment. Love will hunt you down and drop you dead in your tracks when you least expect it. You are at least bi-lingual; could be the one for you is not where you are? Comment by Another Bob on 12/19 @ 1:23 pm # I wonder if some of Frey’s “friends” at the LA Times are keeping track of this soap opera? Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 1:29 pm # #376 Un otra. http://www.sitehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4QqMKe3rwY&feature=fvst Comment by serr8d on 12/19 @ 1:32 pm # Here’s an op ed, written by a previously sane Patrick Frey, writing in the LA Times… Has anyone ever said something about you that wasn’t true? Something that, if people believed it, would significantly damage your reputation? How would you feel if you saw that falsehood printed on the front page of the Los Angeles Times? What about when slanderous and hurtful false and leading questions appear in the blog of a Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney? Maybe the LA Times should ask Robert Stacey McCain or Jeff Goldstein if they enjoy Frey’s irrational attacks (attacks that now include spamming comment threads: a whole new and exciting level of lucid). Frey’s article is entitled “The Correct Way to Fix Mistakes”. Frey should update that op ed to reflect his new way of correcting ‘mistakes’…repeated and ill-advised slanders and libels on his own blog, and spammed comments everywhere he can get away with posting ‘em. All to the tune of ‘pass me another bottle’. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 1:35 pm # Any attempt to look at the “how” of people falling in love would involve a very complex multivariate analysis and bring the wrath of bh down on my head. All I can say is a broken duplex receptacle behind a jukebox led to my first marriage. My present marriage is a study in meeting someone over 30 years ago and then finding each other again through a series of singular events. Life has a random component that stirs all things, designed in by God to my way of thinking. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 1:38 pm # Patterico was excited about his new rifle. So, he went bear hunting. He spotted a small brown bear and shot it. There was then a tap on his shoulder, and he turned around to see a big black bear. The black bear said: “You’ve got two choices. I either maul you to death or we have rough sex.” Patterico decided to bend over. Even though he felt sore for two weeks, Patterico soon recovered and vowed revenge. He headed out on another trip where he found the black bear and shot it. There was another tap on his shoulder. This time a huge grizzly bear stood right next to him. The grizzly says: “That was a huge mistake, Patterico. You’ve got two choices. Either I maul you to death or we have REALLY rough sex. “Again, Patterico thought it was better to comply. Although he survived, it would take several months before Patterico finally recovered. Outraged he headed back to the woods, managed to track down the grizzly and shot it. He felt sweet revenge, but then there was a tap on his shoulder. He turned around to find a giant polar bear standing there. The polar bear says:”Admit it, Patterico, you don’t come here for the hunting, do you?” Comment by Silver Whistle on 12/19 @ 2:15 pm # I answered that Mr Frey’s hypothetical – right here. He never got back to me. In return, I set him a hypothetical. He never answered it. Can I deduce something about the character of this man? Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 2:15 pm # OHNOES! Someone is commenting on a blog and posting links! Let’s try to harm him at work for this behavior! Or maybe just try to make him think we will, in a thuggish attempt to squelch speech! Like this? I’m going to draw out this punishment. Linger over it. Try to bring the maximum pain. I know people, you see. Goldstein thinks he’ll ever be able to publish a book? We’ll see about that. I’ll call in favors to keep that from happening. I’ll blacken his name so that he’s untouchable. You know you’re a hypocrite, right Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 2:16 pm # The stuff I’m posting is all Jeff’s own words. Pablo suggested I do it. Add sarcasm to the list of things lost on dear Patrick. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 2:17 pm # http://patterico.com/2009/12/18/robert-stacy-mccains-suggested-bumper-sticker-about-whipping-slaves-just-a-joke/comment-page-2/#comment-599708 I posted 385 at PP, but I am pretty sure he cannot take a joke about him. Comment by Silver Whistle on 12/19 @ 2:19 pm # I’m starting to feel studiously ignored by Mr Frey – what’s the matter with me? Is there no room in his busy schedule for the little guy? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 2:41 pm # I fear the modern “conservative” base is filled with more EricPWJohnson’s than Silver Whistles, Silver Whistle. So much more’s the pity. Comment by Merovign on 12/19 @ 2:45 pm # Is Eric Patrick’s Mini-me? Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 2:48 pm # OHNOES! Someone is spamming a blog with cut-and-paste link lists on dozens and dozens and dozens of posts, including old, inactive ones almost a year old! FTFY, Frey. Let’s try to harm him at work for this behavior! Or maybe just try to make him think we will, in a thuggish attempt to squelch speech! So, you admit that if your boss knew what you’re doing here, it would be harmful to your position at work? Thank you! No further questions, your honor. Comment by Silver Whistle on 12/19 @ 2:51 pm # Sigh. All morality, no liberty. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 2:55 pm # As predicted, Pussy Patterico scrubbed #385 away from his own site (his latest “defense” of RSM). Dissent will not be allowed. But Pat and his minions will run hogwild over PW posting all kinds of nonsense. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/19 @ 3:03 pm # I feel bad about my earlier comments. This is just not who I am, so I’m going to step away from this discussion for a while. It’s not because Frey has earned better behavior, because he hasn’t. It’s because interacting with him has caused me to behave in a way that I’m not proud of. And because there’s just something wrong with making fun of the mentally disturbed. Ta, all. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 3:03 pm # But Pat and his minions will run hogwild over PW posting all kinds of nonsense. Let them. Each time they do it, they have to rationalize the disconnect, which creates a tiny tear in their “subconscious”. They know they’ve descended into a kind of ill-conceived mob, but they have each other to prop themselves up and rationalize away their behavior. Except during their quiet alone moments. When they recognize what it is they’ve become. And while we’re on the subject of what they’ve become, let me pass along this reminder: Frey has taken to posting out of context blurbs wherever he can to suggest that I am violent and dangerous as a rule, despite their being no record of such violence having been made manifest. To do this, he’s had to make certain that the larger context for the things I’ve written as “threats” be carefully excluded. He is hoping to tarnish by repetition, and he is relying on what he hopes to be a combination of laziness and knee-jerk moral outrage from readers to taint my character. How all that applies to my original arguments vis-a-vis Bill Bennett, Tony Snow, Rush Limbaugh, Stacy McCain, and the (pointed) notion of Freys (potential) anti-semitism, I leave it to you all to figure out. Not saying I planned an overarching lesson on all this and let Frey supply the particulars. Just that, well, it seems to have worked out that way whether I intended for it to do so or not… Enjoy the situational irony! Comment by Will on 12/19 @ 3:12 pm # I love irony. It’s, like, pretty much my most favorite thing. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 3:12 pm # Dicentra tells me not to bother w/ Levi-Strauss. To which I have to say: Nope. Gotta stick to what I know (or, more precisely, what I think I know), which is Claude SanFranciscoBlueJeans. Then, if I should happen to step in it while trying to impress a bunch of people I don’t know and am unlikely to ever meet by showing off my smarty-smart smartness, and Jeff or Dicentra should then decide to have a little fun illustrating a point about Intentionalism at my expense, I can get all huffy and argumentative, fall back on my insufficient epistemological foundations (all the while insisting the I get what Jeff and/or Dicentra are saying), and demand that my off-point irrelevancies be addressed to my satisfaction lest I get all annoying and stalkery. That’s the way we roll around here, isn’t it? Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 3:31 pm # I would be curious what Levi-Strauss would say about certain blogging cultures. Comment by Diana on 12/19 @ 4:05 pm # Ohnoes! The lake froze over … so did the beer. Algore is gonna be pissed. Comment by LTC John on 12/19 @ 4:35 pm # What is it that happens to these people? Cole, Sullivan, Johnson, and now, seemingly, Frey. I do not like this one bit. Comment by happyfeet on 12/19 @ 4:46 pm # Mr. Frey isn’t in that group. He’s just not. I’m not sure what I can adduce to prove that but it’s just my feel. My feel which is just based on my feel is that Mr. McCain’s contributions to the Green Room at Hot Air put him at a proximity to Mr. Frey that Mr. Frey thought or felt was uncomfortable. I’m not sure Mr. Frey even realized he thought or felt that. Yes I’m aware of the irony. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 4:49 pm # Happy, that may explain his antagonism toward Stacy. But what about Jeff? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 4:51 pm # That’s right. We shouldn’t be too hard on Frey. He’s just terribly misunderstood, LTC John. Please ignore how he’s acted here. Ignore the spamming. The personal attacks. The behind the scenes machinations designed to get me off the internet and make sure I can’t get published. It’s just stress, is what it is, and he’s not responsible. Besides, I’m not an important state figure — I don’t have a job with the right gravitas — so I have no reputation worth protecting anyway, at least, not if means throwing suspicion on a really important and respected person like Mr Frey. So it’s all good as is, right happyfeet? Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 4:53 pm # But what about Jeff? Jeff insulted his honor and made him feel threatened (not necessarily by physical violence). In Pat’s mind, his efforts to destroy Jeff are actually legitimate steps taken to protect himself from harm. That’s what makes Pat different from Cole, Sullivan, and Johnson, who have changed ideologies (or appeared to). Pat isn’t fighting against conservatives or conservatism, he’s fighting against his enemies. Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/19 @ 4:56 pm # They were never classical liberals to begin with, LTC John. Simply moral preeners on the right side. They’re facile thinkers and frauds. The whole lot. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 4:56 pm # I’m not so sure Frey hasn’t changed ideologies too, but is fighting these idiotic personal-looking battles to keep from admitting it to himself, let alone the rest of the world. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 4:57 pm # I insulted his “honor” how, dicentra? By arguing that he’s wrong? Apologies. I’d forgotten that nowadays, such a move is considered an “attack” — not an intellectual endeavor, but a means toward personal destruction. An atrocity. I hereby apologize for not just pointing out that everyone is entitled to his opinion, and that all opinions are equal. In the name of tolerance. CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 5:01 pm # I’m not so sure Frey hasn’t changed ideologies too. Have his non-Jeff posts (few though they may be of late) been drifting leftward? Pat’s behavior shows some seriously distorted thinking not about conservatism but about interpersonal dynamics: he’s wholly righteous whereas Jeff is a lying hypocrite; his seeding the Internet with “the truth about Jeff” is done as a measure of self-protection, though it’s clear to any sane person that stopping the argument would have worked far better; he has lost all perspective on when enough is enough; he feels the need to collect evidence (see up-thread) to protect himself. Who do you know that acts like this? It’s not normal. Something’s wrong, and it ain’t Jeff. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 5:02 pm # I insulted his “honor” how, dicentra? By arguing that he’s wrong? Yes, you fiend. How dare you? How dare you throw a wrench into Pat’s righteous trajectory in rooting out the racists among us? Who the hell does that? Hanging offense, Jeff. Hanging offense. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 5:04 pm # Well, Larry Craig never offered legislation to legalize illicit men’s-room sex, did he? I kid, I kid. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 5:07 pm # dicentra, not exactly. I will give you Patterico is still nominally conservative. But he is not a classical liberal (never was) and is authoritarian (which I do not want to stereotype, but is common for career prosecutors). Patterico is defensive about his ego, not his honor (he cannot separate the two which is evident by his latest spam attacks). And he brought that on himself for banning Jeff over nk’s abuses. Jeff taunted him and Patterico plotted his revenge…for nine months. I thought you nailed it when you discribed the disconnect between the structural vs. context arguments in this post. But that Patterico has not only confused that, but has personalized it to Jeff is pathological. He courted and groomed Pablo like a child molester grooms a potential victim. It is beyond creepy. And it seems pretty clear (although I have to infer the intent) that Patterico’s recent RSM attack was some payback related to Jeff. Pussy Patterico, aka, Patrick “Spamming Macht Frey” Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 5:08 pm # Anyway, the main point was fighting these idiotic personal-looking battles to keep from admitting it to himself If his escalating inability to get along with people more to “the right” than he, leads eventually to his non-Jeff posts drifting leftward until he finally has his (psychotic) break with “the right,” I know I won’t be at all surprised. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 5:15 pm # And by nominal conservative, I will conceed that Patterico has drifted left a bit on some things. And is…shall I say, overly deferential to government police authorities. I do not think he is very principalled or very deep about what being a conservative is all about. That is why Patterico freaks out about Balko, because he gets emotional about those law and order issues. Patterico treats each one like a personal challenge to him (honor, ego, whatever). I am not so paranoid to think every cop and prosecutor is corrupt, but recognize human beings in all fields can be corrupt or incompetent. It is relatively rare in law enforcement, but it definitely happens. Patterico’s reactions when something comes up alleging that are pretty predictable. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 5:17 pm # McGee, does Patterico troll for sex in men’s rooms? Just kidding! Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 5:17 pm # Me, PAts Mini Me? Well probably not Still wondering what Jeff meant…. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 5:22 pm # does Patterico troll for sex in men’s rooms? I’m not saying he does, but I’m not saying he doesn’t. I just don’t know. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 5:22 pm # No you’re not, EPWJ. You’re just trying to stir it up some more. We’re tired of it. Consider your contribution to the issue over and done with. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 5:24 pm # And for the record, I don’t want to know. Comment by Obstreperous Infidel on 12/19 @ 5:49 pm # No, Eric, you may indeed be an even bigger pussy than Patterico. Maybe, he’s a miniyou? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 6:06 pm # Still wondering what Jeff meant…. Of course you are. Because you’re too fucking stupid to read through a thread you’re commenting on, and you’ve learned the rhetorical trick of repeating a question over and over in an effort to suggest it hasn’t already been answered directly. Transparent moron. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 6:23 pm # DRJ complains about Lindsay Graham on climate change ambiguity (no disagreement with DRJ on that subject) and notes this: As he has done on so many issues, Graham seems to be trying to find a middle ground with people who don’t believe there is a middle ground. – DRJ Wait a second, doesn’t that comment also apply to DRJ’s Blogboss Paterick “Spamming macht Frey”? Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 6:25 pm # Good post, dicentra. I’m sorry I didn’t see it sooner. I hope it’s not too late to post this. I thought awhile about your distinction between structural and content-driven views on communication. I have obliquely followed this latest dustup and after reading both Jeff and Pat’s explication, I found I could agree with either view. Are you saying that structure and content are inconsistent? Somehow, I don’t find them incompatible. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 6:28 pm # #417 I have learned something at this site. I am encouraged to express myself. My suggestion to you is to try it; it can be quite enervating. Have something to say? Have at it, this is not mors et vita . Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 6:45 pm # Dicentra: Any new birds at your feeder? Email me and I will send you a few photos from here. Jeff has my email address. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 7:11 pm # Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 3:31 pm # “I would be curious what Levi-Strauss would say about certain blogging cultures.” Maybe something about how flame wars are good for seperating the emic from the etic? Just speculatin’ ona hypotisis. I know I don’t know nottin’. BTW Joe, you owe me a new keyboard for 385, above. Best laugh I’ve had in ages. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:08 pm # Are you saying that structure and content are inconsistent? Somehow, I don’t find them incompatible. They’re not. But if you’re arguing from one approach, a rebuttal from the other approach doesn’t rebut the original argument. Take the building example from the main post: the building can be both well-constructed AND ugly, but if you yell at the architect for creating an ugly building and he responds by insisting that it’s up to code, you’re talking past each other. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 8:12 pm # Jeff No really what did you mean – and be specific – first – what did anyone say about your family? Ginning up outrage over nothing Quote specifics I REALLY want to know – what you meant – you keep on making these not so veiled threats BE SPECIFIC - Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:14 pm # Take the building example from the main post: the building can be both well-constructed AND ugly, but if you yell at the architect for creating an ugly building and he responds by insisting that it’s up to code, you’re talking past each other. And it’s even worse when the architect can then turn around and deny that the building is objectively “ugly” — though he’ll usually grant that it may be ugly to you. Critics and nannystate scolds from both political parties hate when what they fancy glorified carpenters take away their right to own moral aesthetics. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:16 pm # Do your own digging if you REALLY want to KNOW SPECIFICS, Eric. I don’t answer to you. If you can’t be bothered to do the research necessary to understand the contexts, you probably shouldn’t be making accusations in the first place. Now scamper back to your hole. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 8:17 pm # I am not — very bright — SPECIFICALLY — I am not very. BRIGHT –* Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:18 pm # Gulermo, me puedes mandar un mensaje así: mi nombre mas xmission punto com. Y para que sepas, el verbo enervate quiere decir debilitar, como el cognado en cristiano. Es un error muy común para nosotros y parece que para Uds también. Quieres la palabra energizing o algo por el estilo. Gulermo. No conozco ese nombre, sólo Guillermo. ¿De dónde eres, mijo? Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 8:19 pm # Why don’t you ask Patrick, Eric? He seems to be some sort of authority on the subject. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 8:19 pm # Jeff Yes or no. Have you — now or have — you ever been a — member of the COMMUNIST party SPECIFICS –* Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:21 pm # Oh, Gulermo, I was also going to offer this resource, http://wordreference.com/ which has dictionaries from English to the Romance languages and back. I also has lots of forums where translators ask how to say this and that in another language. It was a godsend for me when I was translating a user manual from English into Spanish. I needed to know accounting terminology as well as computer interface stuff. Comment by EricPWJohnson on 12/19 @ 8:22 pm # ANSWER YOUR MASTERS You stand accused — and in — America it is up to you — once accused to PROVE your innocence! SPECIFICS! — !?* Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:25 pm # Not going away – not researching it – YOU are the one making assertions – you are the one threatening violence – which is a crime in several states. Actually, Eric, it isn’t. I had to deal with a raging maniac who was hell-bent on showing how awful me and some of my friends were, because we had wronged her, you see. When we looked into the legal implications, we discovered that because the harassment had been sent to a collective rather than an individual e-mail address, it wasn’t actionable. I imagine that the same goes for public forums such as the Internet, where “I’ma gonna bust you up!” isn’t in the least credible and rather counts as ordinary trash talk. Unless and until Jeff stands on someone’s front porch and pounds on the door, shouting threats and expletives, I doubt there’s anything remotely actionable in what he’s said. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 8:26 pm # You stand accused — and in — America it is up to you — once accused to PROVE your innocence! What America do you live in? Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 8:27 pm # Oh, sockpuppet. Got it. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:28 pm # And given that Jeff has the training to mess someone up but there’s no record of him (official or anecdotal) of him every hunting someone down and busting them up, it’s stupid and futile for you to keep banging the “Jeff Threatened Violence” drum. Notice how he is having fun at your expense, using nothing more than a keyboard? Pat’s a lawyer; if there were some kind of legal action he could take against Jeff, he’d have already taken it. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 8:29 pm # On not. Eh. I give up. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:29 pm # Oh, sockpuppet. Got it. No, Edit button. If you’re fast enough, you can see the original. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:31 pm # That’s just me changing his comments, Pablo. Asked and answered. The rest is just his asking again and again as if I hadn’t already answered — with a lot of stray punctuation and poor grammar thrown in. Why EricPWJohnson believes he has the right to interrogate anyone is lost on me. I guess he thinks because he reads the blog of a self-appointed Inquisitor, he’s like some minor functionary of the Church of Potential Outrage, and so he can act in the Grand Inquistor’s stead during times when the big guy is busy getting his drink on. [note: comments 432, 435, and 437 have been altered thus far. Any more unfounded accusations, and I'll do the same] Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 8:31 pm # And the originals aren’t all that (original). Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:33 pm # I’ll have to “quote” him in my rebuttals in the same vein. Don’t know why I didn’t think of that. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 8:36 pm # Frakkin Cowgirls managed to jump out to a lead but their offense appears to be sputtering back into status quo ante and Brees is starting to carve ‘em up, soooo, I ain’t holdin my breathe hoping for a ‘Boys win. uh oh, Reggie B. just hobbled off. (knee?) Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 8:40 pm # Sorry, I’m still trying to get this. So if an utterance (written or spoken) is structurally tethered to an intent, then that intent is permanently hauled along with the statement through the ages. It’s even helplessly tossed in the sea of interpretation, and ultimately winds up on the same rocky shoal where the original statement rests. Just doesn’t add up. Somewhere along the line, the two must become separated, and the barnacles take hold. Or I wouldn’t have gotten my masters degree. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:44 pm # From my sister’s Christmas letter: [name of 14-yr-old son] “Mom, I’m cutting the hole in my bedroom floor this weekend.” Not quite catching on to working your way up to informing your mom you need a hole in your floor to install the seismograph that some “well-meaning” friend gave you. He’s also saving up to buy a 1000-dollar camera, which may explain why I dreamed last week that Jeff wanted me to lend him money for a camera. This same kid asked his parents for a blowtorch one Christmas and was genuinely surprised when they said no, no, no, a thousand times no. He’ll prolly grow up to be the next Edison, but what a handful as a kid. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:44 pm # Argh. Failed to close the blockquote after “friend gave you.” The rest is my words. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 8:46 pm # Why isn’t the question reducible to “can you change the past”? Seems to me that the fixing of the intent, such as it is, is tied directly to the pastness of the utterance. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:48 pm # The two don’t become separated, cynn. It is the joining together of intent and the signifier that turn what looks like language into language to begin with. Because language is symbolic, and because we can attach ANYTHING WE WISH to a signifier (say, “cat”) to turn it into a sign (“cat” + Beatnik Jazz musician = “cat” signified as a Beatnik jazz musician), convention or context won’t always help us determine meaning. Only intent determines meaning. That’s how language grows, how words take on new meanings. Things like conventions, code, context, etc — these are the trappings we’ve built around language to help us interpret, to point us to intent. The cloud example I often use is the best I can come up with, but since it’s not working, let me try something else. If a flock of birds land on some wet sand, and when they take flight again leave behind something that looks like “Kilroy was here” in the sand, made out of bird footsteps, is that language? If so, how? Why? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:50 pm # That’s about the size of it, sdferr, yes. The utterance is what it is at the moment of signification and entry into the communication chain. You can’t retrospectively change the intent. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:51 pm # Or I wouldn’t have gotten my masters degree. Well, there’s your problem: you’re educated. Somewhere along the line, the two must become separated, and the barnacles take hold Do you meant by this that after a long time, the intent of the author is no longer available to the listener, context or not? An extreme example of this would be finding a clay tablet in the jungle, inscribed with a heretofore unknown writing system. When the tablet was inscribed, it was inscribed for the purpose of meaning something, even if that meaning was “this year we grew lots of corn but the bean crop failed.” The scholars would take such a tablet and do what they can to find out what the writings mean. They try as hard as they can to discover what the writer meant when he inscribed the tablet. Even if today’s scholars fail to decipher the writing, the intent of the writer in making the inscriptions has not changed: it’s just impossible for us to even guess what it was. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:51 pm # Off to watch the end of the game, and maybe Inglourious Basterds. Will check in periodically. What time is drinking time on the west coast again? Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:53 pm # You can’t retrospectively change the intent. Unless you’re a judge interpreting the law, in which case knock yourself out. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 8:54 pm # There, you are creating a new text and pretending that you are “adding on” to the meaning of the same text. Which you aren’t. Fucking Gadamer. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 8:54 pm # Thanks for fixing my 449, Jeff. You may delete 450 and this one, too. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 8:54 pm # Two turnovers, 1 int, 1 fumble and time-killed the ‘Girls come away with a 14pt lead. Not bad vs my expectation anyhow. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 8:55 pm # #437 What color is that sky? Ask your Don Frey to whom falls the weight of “proof”. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 8:59 pm # That’s just me changing his comments, Pablo. Yeah, I’m just a little slow on the uptake. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 9:01 pm # Here’s another example: I contract with you to perform a task for me. In exchange, I give you $50,000.00. We write this into a contract and both of us sign. You perform the task and come to collect. I hand you one of these. WTF, you say. This isn’t fifty grand. Well, I say, see this comma? In most Western countries, that’s decimal point, so really the amount on the contract is 50. Furthermore, that squiggly thing before the 5 can mean “Colombian peso,” so here are your 50 Colombian pesos. Have I screwed you over but good? You bet I have, because these days COL$50 isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. (In 1985 when I was there, you could buy two bus fares, a couple of sodas, and a cheese roll.) This is what judges do when they decide that we’ve got a “living Constitution.” They change the terms of the agreement by deviating from what the words meant at the time of their ratification. This is why Jeff is so adamant that intentionalism replace the corrupt paradigms that infect our culture. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 9:10 pm # Take the building example from the main post: the building can be both well-constructed AND ugly, but if you yell at the architect for creating an ugly building and he responds by insisting that it’s up to code, you’re talking past each other. Forgive me but this resonating with me by bringing up memories of passages in “Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance”. The Classical vs Romantic split. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 9:15 pm # Things like conventions, code, context, etc — these are the trappings we’ve built around language to help us interpret, to point us to intent. Could it be said that these are views of where intent was in the past, helpful as historical records but that intent is of the present and aims at the future. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 9:23 pm # None of this is helpful to me. I still maintain that meaning is seated in whoever receives a message. Maybe I’m misinterpreting. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 9:26 pm # I think we just disagree; it’s not your responsibility to respond. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 9:29 pm # “I still maintain that meaning is seated in whoever receives a message.” So you completely agree with what Jeff wrote in 452 then, right cynn? At least that’s what I got out of what you wrote in 465. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 9:30 pm # The person who receives and decodes / re-encodes the message discovers the meaning through the act of interpretation. But the meaning was in the message, and the message is a symbolic representation of the intent of the sender. Which is why to discover the meaning, one must try to recover intent. Look at the bird example again and try to answer the questions. If little bird feet leave behind “Kilroy was here,” what would you make of that? Is it language? If so, why? How? If not, why not? Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 9:34 pm # Sorry, Jeff, but I’m as dumb as dirt here. If a bunch of birds left an actual message in the snow, I would hide under the covers. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 9:36 pm # I still maintain that meaning is seated in whoever receives a message. I reiterate another example: Martina is living in the U.S. and is still learning English. At the bus stop, she asks a young black man, “Boy, what time is it?” In her country, it’s OK to address a young man as “muchacho,” but the young man hears an old racist manner of speech. Did she say something racist or did she say something that sounded racist? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 9:36 pm # Sorry, Jeff, but I’m as dumb as dirt here. If a bunch of birds left an actual message in the snow, I would hide under the covers. Not unreasonable, given what I think your hermeneutical ideas might be. But ask yourself, seriously: why would you hide? What is frightening you? Once you answer that, you are well on your way to understanding this, I think. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 9:40 pm # I still think that if cynn would take 467 seriously she’d have it entire. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 9:44 pm # Say that the bird tracks formed the shape of a pickup truck. Are they trying to tell you something or is that just what you’re seeing? If it’s just what you’re seeing, all that’s happening is that you are recognizing a pattern; the birds didn’t “mean” to draw a truck. So there’s no intent, no message, no communication. Just your imagination recognizing a familiar shape. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 9:45 pm # No, seriously. I don’t think random acts of clouds constitute language. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 9:47 pm # Dicentra: I speak in English. Citizen of the U.S. I live out of the U.S. part the year. I have a family here in C.R. I am accustomed to speaking en Espanol. It slows my thinking and allows me to deliberate about how I wish to flesh out and form the content of an idea. Gulermo was a friends name. There is a joke that he told to you when he introduced himself. Hola. Mi nombre es Gulermo. LLaman mi Gulermo, o Memo, pero dicen Mamo una tiempo ustedes un hombre muerto. En serio, serio. Absolutely fierce and fearless. A yard wide and two tall. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 9:50 pm # No, seriously. I don’t think random acts of clouds constitute language. …And that’s because you don’t believe that clouds or birds are intending to mean using the codes we use to communicate. You have just recognized that you can’t have language without assuming intent. It may look like language — and we may be able to see the shapes and ascribe to them a meaning — but that is because, as dicentra notes, we have learned a code, and when we see it, we assume (from convention) that what we are looking at must be language. But here it isn’t. It’s accident. To make it back into language, we’d have to supply the intent. But then what? Do we attribute the message to the birds? Or ourselves? According to some, it doesn’t matter if the birds intended to “say” anything at all. They just did. Which is odd, because, well, they’re fucking birds. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 9:58 pm # I still don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The accident part throws me. Like the whole thing’s a joke. Comment by Gulermo on 12/19 @ 10:02 pm # #476 Depends on to whom it is addressed and the content. ;) Comment by Jeff G. on 12/19 @ 10:03 pm # Are you interested, or are you just trying to waste my time here, cynn? Accident. Not intended. Bird tracks that resemble a message in English, but which are bird tracks. Birds don’t speak English. They don’t intend to communicate with us using their foot prints. So it makes no sense to call what they’ve left behind language. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 10:05 pm # You need to know what Jeff’s fighting against to know why he produced the example of the birds. Now look at my 470. Did Martina say something that is racist or something that sounds racist? Contemporary theories hold that it is racist, because the young man thought it was; ergo, she can be accused of racism even if she totally didn’t mean anything racist by it. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:07 pm # The accident part throws me. Like the whole thing’s a joke. Try coincidence. The birdie tracks just happen to look like a message, nut they’re not. Or consider the million monkeys banging on a million keyboards and how eventually they’ll reproduce Shakespeare. They won’t mean to do it, but they might well do it anyway. They’re just banging on the keys, but you see Othello somewhere among the zillion tons of gobbldeygook they produce. It’s an accident, a coincidence. It’s not language, though it looks like it. There’s no intent, therefore no message being conveyed. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:07 pm # but they’re not. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 10:08 pm # Cool. No language involved. What was your point? Something about an accident… But skip your response; I’m off to a party. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:10 pm # cynn’s just been funnin’ ya’ll. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:17 pm # Nick Folk not so funny. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:21 pm # Clang! Should be an interesting 2 minutes. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 10:22 pm # The human mind is always searching for meaningful patterns. Built in to the survival of us. We can even project our own meaning onto random signal noise, because we expect there to be something there. It’s one reason in science there must be replication of results by others, ones not looking for that certain pattern in the noise background. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:23 pm # 0:44 Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 10:23 pm # Sorry, Pablo, but I tried to envision that crap and no dice. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:23 pm # Nice 4th down conversion. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:24 pm # “We can even project our own meaning onto random signal noise…” Which is exactly what I tend to do with cynn. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 10:25 pm # cynn’s just been funnin’ ya’ll. But the lesson is still there for anyone. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:25 pm # 0:18 at 42ydline Comment by Ric Locke on 12/19 @ 10:28 pm # cynn, Visualize a man sitting at a desk making marks on paper. Why is he doing that? What is his reason for putting ink on a blank sheet? He’s writing, you say. Yes, that’s the term for it. More precisely, he’s selecting particular marks out of all the possible shapes he might draw, and putting them in a particular order. What is his reason for selecting certain marks and not others, and stringing them together in a particular order rather than one of the other n-factorial possible orders? For this analysis we don’t need to know what his reason was, we only need to know that he has a reason; a reason for selecting those marks and putting them in that order; that is, he has an intent. He intends that those marks in that order serve a particular purpose which he has decided on. Once he has accomplished his purpose — satisfied his intent — by assembling those marks in that order, nobody can change that including him. As geoffb notes, the past can’t be changed. His purpose, his reason, his intent was as it was, and was satisfied, in a way used up, by making those marks in that order. Looked at that way, stripping all the “meaning” and “signs” and “signifiers” out of it, it’s obvious, isn’t it? If it is, there’s more; not different, but more complicated. Regards, Ric Comment by Ludwig on 12/19 @ 10:30 pm # Regarding intent, how do I know that when you describe the beetle in your box you’re using the same signs that I would use to describe the beetle in my box? Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:33 pm # Cynn, a few questions that might help. I still maintain that meaning is seated in whoever receives a message. If so, how does it get there? If the meaning doesn’t become seated until it’s received, and is seated in the receiver, what role does the sender play? Why does a message even need a sender? Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:34 pm # Regarding intent, how do I know that when you describe the beetle in your box you’re using the same signs that I would use to describe the beetle in my box? You don’t, with certainty. But convention should help you to divine the intent behind the description. If the describer is using standard definitions, you should be able to use those definitions to decode the description. But maybe the describer just really likes the movie. And reef seals. Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:35 pm # Why does a message even need a sender? How else would you brand him a racist? Comment by RTO Trainer on 12/19 @ 10:37 pm # I still maintain that meaning is seated in whoever receives a message. As the receiver of this message, I understand it to mean that you hate cucumber sandwiches unless the crusts are cut off. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:38 pm # Well, even with the win, Folk has got to go. Adios shitty kicker dude. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 10:41 pm # If a sender sends a message in a forest and there’s no one around to hear it… Wait, I think I posted this comment before. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 10:48 pm # Well, even with the win, Folk has got to go. Adios shitty kicker dude. And now your 485 just flipped it’s meaning to me as before I had assumed it was aimed as a response to cynn not about a football game. My interpretation just got closer to your intent which never changed. Comment by SBP on 12/19 @ 10:51 pm # I think I tried this argument once before without much success, but let’s try it again. Consider the string of binary digits “01000001″. What does it mean? Does it mean: The letter capital A in ASCII code? The integer 65? The 65th color in an indexed color palette? A small portion of an IEEE floating point number? A (very) short sample of digital audio or video? Could be any of them. I’d bet that everyone on this site has been exposed to ALL of these meanings of 01000001 within the last 24 hours. The meaning of that bit string is ABSOLUTELY determined by the person (or software) which produced it. The receiver doesn’t enter into it, except to the extent that it is able to derive the SAME semantic content that the sender intended. The SAME content. Not some fucktarded personalized interpretation. The SAME. 100% the same. Anything less is a failure in communication. If the sender (or the sender’s computer) intended the letter A, and I (or my computer) interpret it as audio, I’m just WRONG. There’s no possible argument about it. It’s not “creative”, “subversive” or any of the other buzzwords. It’s simply WRONG. Now, certainly, you could argue that the sender could be more clear about his meaning (providing documentation, using file names which indicate what kind of content is contained in the file), but that’s an ENTIRELY separate issue. The wrong interpretation is still WRONG. How anyone could fail to see this boggles the imagination. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 10:52 pm # Sorry, but none of this counts, because we live in a world of apprehension, not comprehension. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:53 pm # “And now your 485 just flipped it’s meaning to me as before I had assumed it was aimed as a response to cynn not about a football game. My interpretation just got closer to your intent which never changed.” Heh, that’s the ole utterer doing a crappy job of contextualizing his message I think, geoffb. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 10:55 pm # I appreciate Jeff’s and Dicentra’s efforts to answer Cynn’s questions, even if the whole exchange was a joke to her. Comment by RTO Trainer on 12/19 @ 10:56 pm # SPB, Excellent point. If langauge worked the way Progressives think it does and push on others, they’d never have been able to produce any advancement or innovation in IT. The only way a computer can function is of the intent of the sender (BIOS, OS, program) to be fixed and for the receiver (PC, Server, appliance) to have the proper frame of reference in which to grasp that intent. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 10:57 pm # Perhaps the question remains whether cynn intended to present an opportunity for explanations which though useless to herself would nevertheless be found useful for other folks? (And Nick Folk still stinks.) Comment by Pablo on 12/19 @ 10:57 pm # Also, ponies! Fucking genius, cynn. Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 10:59 pm # SBP wins. If one computer sends a string of bits that are intended to signify ASCII text and the receiving computer tries to read them as a JPG file, you get no picture and no text. When there is a miscommunication like that, it’s the receiving computer that has to be adjusted, not the sender. Comment by RTO Trainer on 12/19 @ 11:03 pm # The ultimate truth of GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Comment by McGehee on 12/19 @ 11:06 pm # we live in a world of apprehension, not comprehension. Speak for yourself. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 11:06 pm # “We live in a world of apprehension, not comprehension” Then I guess hell really is other people Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 11:07 pm # Birds don’t speak English. They don’t intend to communicate with us using their foot prints. So it makes no sense to call what they’ve left behind language. Unless of course you are really really high. Comment by Joe on 12/19 @ 11:09 pm # I guess Romo is hoping the snow really fucks Philly up tomorrow. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 11:09 pm # Nobody has adequately squared this structure vis a vis content deal. I was robbed of a satisfactory conclusion. What a lame website. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 11:12 pm # “I was robbed of a satisfactory conclusion.” How does one get robbed of something they never possessed? Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 11:12 pm # At least now we know why Cynn’s would be hiding under her covers were she to come across “Kilroy was here” in bird tracks. Because she’s Tippi Hedren, and they’re coming for her eyes! Comment by dicentra on 12/19 @ 11:13 pm # I was robbed of a satisfactory conclusion. What a lame website. Life is full of disappointments, innit? Weren’t you supposed to be out partying? Comment by LBascom on 12/19 @ 11:13 pm # “What a lame website.” You don’t mean that… Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 11:18 pm # An example of the mind finding meaning put there by intent that used symbols not used before in that way. But still a message shines. Comment by cynn on 12/19 @ 11:37 pm # I expect you people to resolve a binary: Is it stuffy (structural) or fluffy (content)? OK, going now. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/19 @ 11:39 pm # “We live in a world of apprehension” We most certainly do when we allow others to superimpose their meaning on our words. Former Sen. George Allen could tell you all about that. Likewise when we, consciously at first then by force of habit curtail and circumscribe our language so as not to risk interpretive jeopardy and the social consequences that might follow. A world of apprehension is a world chock full of bullies and cowards. Which one are you Cynn? Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 11:46 pm # The intent that drives a mind to produce an utterance and attaches meaning to the symbols used is to invoke thoughts, imsges, emotions in a mind separated fromit by time and/or space. Jabberwocky does this quite well. Comment by geoffb on 12/19 @ 11:47 pm # Though I’m tired and can’t write well myself. Comment by sdferr on 12/19 @ 11:54 pm # “Which one are you Cynn?” can’t say yet won’t not say neither already been saying unless read downward into saying toodles Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 12:07 am # #526, :-) Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/20 @ 12:10 am # In a world where you can only communicate what the reciever chooses to believe, your only recourse (other than communicating only what you know to be pre-approved or just shutting the hell up) is to physically defend your right to say what you and mean what you say. And by that, I mean, snapping ACLs, breaking ankles, beating asses, and generally breaking people like toothpicks and leaving them in heaps, mewling like baby pussies. I know I’m not saying anything that hasn’t already been said here before, but some of the people who have their knickers in a twist over the aforementioned might want to think about that. Unless of course you’re okay with 2+2=5. Because Big Brother said so. And he doesn’t give a shit for your self-esteem. Comment by Ernst Schreiber on 12/20 @ 12:18 am # “say what you mean and mean what you say” damnit! This typing would be easier if I had opposable thumbs! Comment by guinsPen on 12/20 @ 12:36 am # I was robbed of a satisfactory conclusion. It’s like the All-American Out all over again. In a July 6, 1946 interview with Red Barber, Durocher had been commenting on the common belief at the time that if a team’s players got along well, they would naturally play better than teams with difficult or irascible players; noting some of the players on the Giants who had reputations as personable individuals, notably Mel Ott, he observed that they were all “nice guys”, but would nonetheless finish last (while his Dodgers were in first place), summing up his argument with, “Nice guys; finish last.” Durocher later noted that the remark was quoted accurately in the published interview, but came to take on a different meaning when some incorrectly thought he meant that such a team would finish last because it included “nice guys”, when in fact he had meant that there was no correlation (and in fact, saw it more as an ironic situation) between the personalities on a team and their level of play. (See 1966 Chicago Cubs, below.) Thus the quote “Nice guys finish last” has long been attributed to Durocher, including an entry in Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations. Many historians assert, however, that the famous four words never were actually uttered by Durocher; the quotation as it is remembered actually came from headline writers distilling Durocher’s quote that “The nice guys are all over there, in seventh place, not in this dugout, no, over here we unsatisfactorily stuffy the fluffy” into a pithy soundbite. Comment by Joe on 12/20 @ 1:39 am # Patterico’s problem. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but Patterico has his inner deamons. Comment by serr8d on 12/20 @ 2:33 am # Patterico is on “vacation”. I left a comment there just minutes ago… Patterico, you’ve become a crazy out-of-control blogger. How long before you become a crazy out-of-control Deputy District Attorney? How soon before your bloggy madness spills over into your personal and professional life? This is what happens when a stressful job causes mental overload. You’ve blown a breaker, it’s obvious to anyone who knows you. Do a poll, ask your readers (and co-bloggers) “Am I out of line here? Do I seem crazy? Should I continue this?” Where’s Karl’s opinion? I haven’t seen him weigh in. You respect him; ask him if he thinks you’re losing your grip. I’ll bet he’ll answer honestly. Personally, I give you six months until you completely melt down to complete unsustainability. You need some help, man. Stop the MADNESS! [serr8d: Patterico is on vacation and he isn't able to watch his blog as closely during those times. That leaves me in charge and I don't tolerate comments that attack him in his day job. Thus, your comments will go into moderation until I can review and decide whether to release them, or until I'm convinced you can comment appropriately, or until Patterico returns. -- DRJ] Comment by serr8d — 12/19/2009 @ 10:57 pm Vacation didn’t stop him from spamming PW today. But a vacation! I heartily approve. I wonder if it was forced on him? An intervention by family or coworkers? About damned time. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/20 @ 8:41 am # It’s all about appearances to some people. Has been. Always will be. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/20 @ 9:16 am # Where do you see anything about a vaction, serr8d? Comment by Ric Locke on 12/20 @ 9:19 am # A man is making marks on paper. What is his purpose in doing so? We need to take a little side trip. Among us we have a commonly held set of rules, a convention, that associates certain marks with certain things. We also have a convention that certain marks can be combined in certain orders, creating new, more complex marks that are associated with other, generally more complex things. When a mark is associated with something, we have a sign consisting of the mark and its association. An open oval with the opening to the right is associated with an alveolar fricative — that is, it “is” “the letter C”. We can combine it with other marks to produce the more complex mark C A T which is associated with certain furry mammals of the genus felis. Those rules of selection and combination are collectively called “language”, and the associations are called “meaning”. The function of language is communication. Communication is a process involving a sender, a channel, and a receiver. Ignoring the channel for the moment, the function of the process of communication is to allow the sender to modify some aspect of the receiver to make that aspect more similar to the sender’s. When communication involves people, the aspect in question is mental state — the sender seeks to modify the mental state of the receiver so as to make them more similar. In the canonical case, the sender “knows” something — that is, his mental state includes certain patterns — and uses communication to modify the receiver’s mental state to include the same or similar patterns. (The process is necessarily imperfect; the received pattern is seldom or never identical to the one sent. That doesn’t change its function.) At the end of the process of communication, sender and receiver have the pattern in common. The channel is not dispensible, but it can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion. Its main effect on the process of communication is to constrain the selection of marks that can be used. One of the reasons for using “mark” instead of “symbol” is that the former is (in this context) more general. Modifying the local air pressure in a regular pattern (that is, “making a sound”) is just as much a “mark”, as the word is used here, as ink on paper is — a transient mark, perhaps, but a mark none the less. So to engage in communication, the sender selects marks from those thechannel can carry, and which are associated (by the conventions ofselection and combination the sender and receiver agree upon, that is,by the language) with the pattern within his mental state that he wishes to induce a copy of in the receiver. The channel carries the marks to the receiver, who employs the conventions to adduce the pattern in the sender’s mental state and modify his own to match. At that point, communication has occurred. The sender chose those marks in that combination to represent — signify — the pattern in his mental state that he wishes to induce in the receiver, so that they will have that pattern in common. If the receiver does not use the same conventions as the sender, for instance associating the marks C A T with a small placental mammal having a leathery armor shell, he has chosen a different set of associations of marks to things, a different set of signs, exactly as if he had made a new set of marks with different associations. In Jeff’s terms, a receiver who does that has produced a new text — the marks are the same, but the associations (“meanings”) are different. So the only way the process of communication can occur is for the receiver to employ convention (“language”) to determine why the sender chose those marks in that combination — the sender’s intent — and infer from that the pattern in the sender’s mental state that is to be copied. If that doesn’t happen, communication has not occurred and the function of language has not been served. Regards, Ric Comment by serr8d on 12/20 @ 9:46 am # Jeff, in the “You are in MODERATION!” italicized comment from DRJ to me, at the bottom of my in-limbo comment. Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 10:16 am # “The function of language is communication.” So, ought we to deal with the interesting particular instance where the sender of a communication intends to deceive the receiver of a communication and so sort out for ourselves the import of intent in that particular? The sender intends the receiver to be possessed of a falsehood. Will the receiver fail to understand the sender’s intent when the receiver fails to be possessed of the falsehood (isn’t gulled)? Or will the receiver have failed to understand the sender’s intent when the receiver is possessed of the falsehood (is gulled)? For the sender’s intent, surely, isn’t to be discovered in his duplicity? Comment by Joe on 12/20 @ 10:29 am # serr8d, you are pushing Pat over the edge. Or rather, Pat is charging over the edge all on his own. I have noticed Karl is staying out of it. Dan C. is not saying much either. But of course there will be a fair jury with nk and the boys chiming in. Reader poll is in order just to show the Patterico crew for what they are. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/20 @ 10:31 am # Any statement can be intended ironically. That’s just the nature of a symbolic medium. In such an instance you can be possessed of the sender’s falsehood by interpreting his signs incorrectly based on convention. You won’t have his meaning; but you will have what he wanted you to have, which is his falsehood. One can also intend not to “mean” at all, in the traditional sense. That is, I can intend to transmit what at first blush seem to be signifiers only (Paul De Man notes this, but draws from it the wrong conclusions, in my estimation). And that’s because to do so doesn’t mean I haven’t intended, or that I haven’t meant. Instead, I intend not to mean. The signifier is still signified, only the signification is something on the order of, “I refuse to assign to this signifier any specific referent or significance.” What it’s not is an “empty” or free-floating signifier. Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 11:01 am # I wrote “For the sender’s intent, surely, isn’t to be discovered in his duplicity?” but thinking on it a bit, I realized that I have long believed that sometimes “to be discovered in his duplicity” is precisely what the sender hopes for (or intends) and is the means of his sorting of his receivers (who he cannot otherwise choose), though this is a much rarer occurrence than a common one. Comment by Joe on 12/20 @ 11:15 am # nk making friends and influencing people at Patterico Pontifications: I usually lurk here but a certain poster has me creeped out. Having given birth to 2 healthy 8 pounders without the benefit of medication, I find his descriptions of childbirth, C-sections and his own experiences juvenile, disgusting, and inappropriate to the argument at hand. Team Dana, all the way. Comment by Crabby — 12/20/2009 @ 7:38 am Won’t you give me the benefit of being someone who finds it hard to hurt women, Crabby? Comment by nk — 12/20/2009 @ 8:28 am Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 12:51 pm # Austin Knuppe on the Iranian missile tested the other day: In “Surat al-Fil” (“The Elephant”)–one of the Holy Qur’an’s shortest chapters–God sends a flock of birds to destroy the followers of Sultan Abraha, because of their plot to destroy the Kaaba, a holy monument in the center of Mecca that was built by Father Abraham himself. God equips the birds with baked clay stones, which they hurled at the Elephants of Sultan Abraha, stopping his advance toward the city. On Wednesday the Iranian Defense Ministry successfully conducted a third test of Iran’s solid-state, medium-range, ballistic missile called the Sajjil-2. In Persian, Sajji is translated as “baked clay,” serving as a powerful allusion to Surat al-Fil. With a range of 2,000 km (almost 1,200 miles), the state of Israel, US bases in the Persian Gulf, and parts of southern Europe are within range of an Iranian strike. Something about translation treads here. We would say “brick” for “baked clay” but in so doing transmit a set of allusions (“He threw up a brick”, “That was a real brick, klutz!”, etc.) unfit to the Iranian’s intent. Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 12:58 pm # The intent is to cause a change in the state of a mind, that mind is the intended audience. Whether this change is in accord with reality or not is separate. The channel as Ric Locke calls it above could be music or art as well as language. It is a mind attempting to have a particular effect on a mind displaced in space and/or time. I used that and/or because you could be leaving a note to yourself or writing in private diary. Comment by SBP on 12/20 @ 12:59 pm # #507: Right, RTO. When that happens in a computer network, the network techs get a repair order. When it happens in academia, you apparently get tenure. Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 1:07 pm # So academia is in need of a repair order, perhaps? Comment by Jeff G. on 12/20 @ 1:11 pm # Yes, but all that computer stuff is so structurey. It doesn’t give us the opportunity to seize control over it and pretend that it’s all about us. And that’s just unfair. And should be stamped out. And me and lots of my friends agree that we are SO much better than the computer anyway. So we vote it doesn’t get to mean what it means. There. That should settle it. WHO’S WITH US! LET’S DEMOCRATIZE MEANING AND THROW OFF THE SHACKLES OF TOTALITARIAN CONTROL ! Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 1:14 pm # dicentra gave me a stern lecture when I suggested that communication is always and everywhere a matter of control (control meant here in the weakest of all possible senses though). Control, said she, I think, is too perjorativy a term. But I insist! Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 1:16 pm # Is this the Bill Gates is evil thread now? Or Steve Jobs? Somebody has to be blamed. Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 1:19 pm # Can’t we go after Claude Shannon? Or Alan Turing or someone less proximate? Turing, after all, was a queer and we’re all supposed to live in utter fear and loathing of queers. Comment by Pablo on 12/20 @ 1:31 pm # The sender intends the receiver to be possessed of a falsehood. Will the receiver fail to understand the sender’s intent when the receiver fails to be possessed of the falsehood (isn’t gulled)? Or will the receiver have failed to understand the sender’s intent when the receiver is possessed of the falsehood (is gulled)? For the sender’s intent, surely, isn’t to be discovered in his duplicity? The sender’s intent is to deceive. If the receiver picks up on that and refuses to be gulled, then he may have divined the intent quite precisely, despite the sender hoping he wouldn’t. Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 1:32 pm # Correction: It was nefarious, not perjorativy. Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 1:41 pm # I have been informed that I need to go out and “bring home the tree”. I shall pray this is not considered a “death threat” when I actually do so. But you never know nowadays. Comment by Lamontyoubigdummy on 12/20 @ 2:18 pm # After reading this thread I’m pretty sure a PhD doesn’t mean anything, and there was no intent in the creation of Stonehenge. Some OCD Celt got into the moonshine, and went overboard on his rock garden. Comment by Ric Locke on 12/20 @ 4:33 pm # sdferr, the starting point of (human) communication is a pattern within the mental state of the sender, which the sender wants (“intends”) to induce (a copy of) in the mental state of the receiver. That pattern is not the total mental state of the sender; it is a subset. It is irrelevant to that part of the analysis whether that pattern represents something in the real world (“is true”) or not; it is equally irrelevant whether or not the other patterns in the sender’s mental state contain a correct evaluation of the pattern (“the sender knows it’s true or false”). What is relevant is that the sender chose the marks and their order of presentation with the intent that the receiver acquire (a copy of) the pattern. It’s easier (at least for me) to understand if you strip out the value judgements and use neutral terms — “pattern”, “set of conventions”, and the like. (Part of that is because I don’t have easy familiarity with the technical terms Jeff uses.) The trouble is, you can only do that for a little while. As the discussion continues, the “neutral” terms take on connotations ( = acquire new associations, = come to signify other or additional things) such that they are no longer neutral, and it’s necessary to back off and pick another set of “neutral” signs. That’s already happened. The people who picked “mark”, “sign”, “signifier”, “text”, and the other terms Jeff uses intended them to be technical and value-neutral, but as more and more people joined the discussion the terms became loaded. It’s something that always happens. Language is hard. Once you start looking at the details of how it works, the amazing thing is that any communication occurs, not that the process sometimes fails partially or completely (cf. the kids’ discussion of baseball at the opening of Heinlein’s The Rolling Stones). Regards, Ric Comment by dicentra on 12/20 @ 4:50 pm # dicentra gave me a stern lecture when I suggested that communication is always and everywhere a matter of control I did? I don’t remember that. Of course, if it were more than two weeks ago, I’ll have no memory of it. I do remember insisting that all liars intend to deceive, no more and no less, but that was pretty recent. A lie works the same way on a linguistic level as the truth, because how else could we write fiction and have it understood? Take these two phrases: The sky is blue. The sky is green. From a linguistic standpoint, they’re identical: article, noun, linking verb, adjective. And from the standpoint of linguistic analysis, there’s no way to determine which phrase, if any, is true. Which is why linguists and literary theorists decided to forgo the whole question of “what is truth?” because the means to determine it is not in their toolkit. Well, that and the fact that “truth” is such a nasty value judgment, and We Can’t Have That. The question of intent when it comes to deception is not linguistic, it’s moral, because the linguistic conventions you use to tell the truth, tell a lie, tell a joke, or tell a story are identical. In fact, the whole New Historicism movement is based on the fact that when you recount historical facts, you necessarily have to resort to the same tropes and techniques that you do when recounting pure fiction. They then go through written histories and suss out the “plot” and other “fiction-like” characteristics of a history to reconstitute the writer’s point of view. Which, as far as it goes, is legitimate, given that Real Life cannot be recorded in a linguistic form without using linguistic conventions. Comment by dicentra on 12/20 @ 4:56 pm # And then there’s the question of forensic science. Detectives look for “signs” to tell them what really happened in a given situation, but these signs are almost always unintentionally left behind. No murderer intends to leave behind his fingerprints or DNA, and yet there they are, and the detective can use those signs as the message, “Joe Murderer was here.” And no, I’m not the first to consider detective fiction (or reality) as a semiotic system. Umberto Eco in The Name of the Rose quite explicitly explores how clues serve as linguistic signs, but in his story, the signs all communicate something quite different from what actually happened. The medieval detective quite expertly decodes the clues, but then when they find out the truth behind the events, the truth turns out to be so bizarre that no one could possibly have arrived there just through the clues. Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 5:01 pm # Language is indeed hard. No question on that score from me. Whether there is something, anything, actually “value neutral” though, remains an open question, I think. Even the possibility of severing a neutral “something” in a mind interested in communication from that same agent’s decidedly non-neutral interest in communicating “anything” strikes me as problematic, at the least. I’ve no doubt that there is also a sort of “taken twice-ness” to the use of intent in a description of an intending deceiver, where his intent is two-fold, 1) communicating a falsehood and 2) remaining hidden in his intent to communicate a falsehood. But that twice taking was (is?) what needed (needs?) sorting out. The Fakery and straight/true intention encoding devices co-evolved (and with them, the decoding devices) I’m thinking and will therefore always want the teasing apart. But then, that’s my “value” judgment. There was no Garden of Eden in which never a lie was told. Comment by dicentra on 12/20 @ 5:28 pm # The fact that in a linguistic sense, a lie is identical to the truth is what makes lies possible. If lying forced you to use different conventions than telling the truth, it wouldn’t be possible to lie. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/20 @ 5:33 pm # “I was robbed of a satisfactory conclusion” There’s always vibrators, I suppose. Comment by redc1c4 on 12/20 @ 5:35 pm # just out of curiosity, which of the above comments have been edited without the original author’s permission, all of them, or just the ones that read like a fool wrote them? Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 5:37 pm # I think the ones that look like a fool wrote them are the originals. Comment by wow on 12/20 @ 5:40 pm # “just out of curiosity, which of the above comments have been edited without the original author’s permission, all of them, or just the ones that read like a fool wrote them?” Ask around. There is nothing novel about changing people’s comments when they’re spamming your blog around the clock. For example, see how Palin Steele (dum dum) is handled over at AoSHQ. Comment by dicentra on 12/20 @ 5:43 pm # 444 identifies the comments that were edited. The rest have been left alone. Comment by geoffb on 12/20 @ 5:50 pm # I have never had any comment of mine edited after I made it here. There are many times I wished I could go back and change some error myself but I can’t and no one with the power to do so has ever done so. Comment by redc1c4 on 12/20 @ 6:01 pm # # Comment by sdferr on 12/20 @ 5:37 pm # “I think the ones that look like a fool wrote them are the originals.” well, i wasn’t actually discussing Jeff’s posts, but i’d say you have a point there. %-) Comment by cesspoolian on 12/20 @ 6:06 pm # Are you asking about this, redc1c4?: “All he has to do is ban me. He should have just banned Fr[]sch, too.” Yes, Frey actually did draw a parallel between himself and Frsch after spamming the blog like a nutjob. I saw it moments after it appeared and it’s never been changed since. Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/20 @ 7:20 pm # Over at Patterico’s, by EricPWJohnson: He completely changed my comments – wrote things I didnt write at all And On more than one comment and in the latter ones they changed – I was ASKED to RESPOND by HIM and his people only to have them completely change them where my Father, my mother, my daughter, her commanders and classmates at West Point, my business associates can all see these comments forever on the internet Hey, the comments that went unchanged were something that his relatives and their friends (as well as me; where’s the brain-brillo?) can see forever on the internets. I think those were more harmful to him than the stuff that Jeff edited. If he’s looking for credibility, I mean. Vanilla is better than chocolate, YES OR NO? Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/20 @ 7:21 pm # Oh, and Patterico, in the same thread: It is my current plan to let this post be the last one concerning Goldstein Until the next re-plan, which could be any second, now. Pingback by Now I hear I’m being accused of altering a Patrick Frey comment on 12/20 @ 8:17 pm # [...] Re: altering comments. I altered 3 comments from EricPWJohnson, which I noted in the thread. The alterations are obvious. Having already answered the question he kept asking, I grew tired of having him repeat it over and over. I also altered the comments of “Leo Tolstoy” — who shouldn’t really mind, his being long dead. After Mr Tolstoy tried chewing up my bandwith by posting chapters from Ana Karenina, I didn’t much care what he had to say. I replaced long comments with things such as, “I adore ham.” [...] Comment by Slartibartfast on 12/21 @ 9:44 am # Until the next re-plan, which could be any second, now. I’d call that fucking prophetic, but that would be dishonest. Let’s just say that Mr. Frey is rather predictably obsessive. Comment by Jeff G. on 12/22 @ 11:55 am # Reply to Patterico re: “violence” charges here. Pingback by Record setting [updated] on 12/24 @ 10:26 am # [...] update: In addition to leaving the first instance of Frey’s comment spam intact, I likewise allowed links back to his own post on the subject that some of the writers from his site came by to leave in [...] RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI: http://proteinwisdom.com/wp-trackback.php?p=15635 Leave a comment If you want to leave a feedback to this post or to some other user´s comment, simply fill out the form below. Name (required) E-mail (required) URI Your Comment « Things to do in Denver when you’re dead, #13 \| Home \| Saturday self defense: the double wristlock (on the ground) »
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