Greyhawk on a CNN shameless cover-up
Pvt Joseph Foster is yet another soldier reporting that Nidal Hasan shouted “Allah Akbar” when he began firing last week – but Foster made the mistake of saying it on CNN
Roberts: So the first moments of Thursday afternoon, can you tell our viewers, you know, where you were, what happened, how it all unfolded?Foster: I was sitting in what they call station 13, it’s where we get, basically, our final outs of our RSP (ph) system and I was sitting in about the second row back when the assailant stood up, screamed and yelled Allah Akbar (ph) in Arabic and he opened fire.
Turns out the “C” stands for “cover-up”. CNN has deleted the story and replaced it with another one at the same url.
And then it occurred to me why they had to find some reason, any reason, other than Hasan’s decision to be a jihadi. If the liberal media were to acquiesce and report the facts-that he was enamoured of the teachings of radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, that he was described by other Muslims as being a “radical fundamentalist”, and that the FBI knew that Hasan had tried to contact Al Queda-then the public might rightly begin to associate his acts as being jihadist, or the acts of an Islamic extremist; in other words an act of terrorism. And that is an admission they are loathe to make, because of the possible repurcussions.
One reads and hears with increasing disbelief and anger that we don’t know the motive or motives of Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army major who fired over 100 shots at his fellow American soldiers in order to murder and maim as many as possible. Hasan ended up allegedly murdering 13 people, but government and Army spokesmen and the mainstream media claim they just can’t figure out why he did this. They are, however, certain that it was not an act of terrorism. [...]The deaths and maiming at Fort Hood are heartbreaking and angering. But ultimately far more injurious to America than the act of evil that caused those deaths and injuries is the massive self-deception American society engages in out of fear of being called bigoted, racist or “Islamaphobic.”
Any American who is not prepared to lie to himself has reason to believe that Hasan’s religious views were prominent, if not exclusive, factors for why he slaughtered fellow American soldiers. The motives appear as clear as any could be. [...]
It does the majority of Muslims no favor to deny the existence of the minority. And Muslim Americans do themselves no favor by denying it. [...]
Americans are worried by the fact that there are Muslim Americans whose beliefs compel them to murder non-Muslim Americans. But what is even more worrisome is that American Muslim groups (and their supporters on the left) deny this.
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Palate cleanser from Iowahawk
Comment by LTC John on 11/10 @ 2:05 pm #
Some folks just don’t want to admit that there are people motivated by their faith to destroy us and our way of life. Well, I better qualify that – besides Andrew Sullivan and Charles Johnson irrationally fearing Christianists…
Comment by The Sanity Inspector on 11/10 @ 2:07 pm #
It’s simple: Islam is a religion of peace, and terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. So, whenever a Muslim commits a terrorist act, he’s not a “real” Muslim, and Islam is innocent. Repeat until infidels are all subdued.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 2:10 pm #
If Hasan had walked into an NBC studio and meted out the same carnage, would the story be different?
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 2:13 pm #
How would it be reported if Hasan had done this in the Capital Building?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 2:34 pm #
Journalism has yet to have its 9/11 I think.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 2:37 pm #
I prefer the “nuke ‘em from orbit” concept but …
I condemn myself.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 2:40 pm #
I think you have to identify the different definitions of “destroy”, Colonel.
Comment by El Surfista on 11/10 @ 2:45 pm #
Hopefully this will open some necessary eyes: we need to round up all of the Muslims in the US and put them through the wringer – and then expel them if they don’t come through squeaky clean. Although I admit many Muslims have served our military courageously and honorably, we need to discharge all who remain – we simply cannot afford to take the case. Islam, at the moment, is like nitroglycerin – it’s highly unstable and liable to go off with no few warning signs and with the slightest jiggle. I’m not hard-hearted, but let’s face it: the world is far too populated, and the troublesome sectors are the ones growing at terrifying rates. In the future it’s going to come down, eventually and inevitably, to us-or-them, and they will have zero compunctions about showing the West no mercy whatsoever. So I say, let’s drug up a few localized atrocities to separate the centrists from the Democratic grip, take down every Islamic nation along the fault lines quickly and with utmost brutality, like removing a bandage. Ignore the outcries, start working closer and more in hand with China and Russia and ignore the rest, and make sure that the USA remains top dog for as long as possible.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 2:49 pm #
“…the world is far too populated…”
May I suggest you help out by removing yourself from it? Thanks.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 2:49 pm #
The “media” already got their orders back around 2001 when envelopes filled with white powder started showing up addressed to Tom Brokaw at NBC.
The message was: “Play on our side, or your building is next.”
Since the “media” was already predisposed to this position anyway, it was an easy sell.
Comment by JHo on 11/10 @ 2:50 pm #
It did on 9/11, actually. I remember it well. At NPR, it lasted all of six weeks.
The question I want answered is this: What is it about the spinal tap proggs must be attached to that has them so blatantly opposed to simple fact? What is this epidemic of denial? What purpose does it serve?
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 2:51 pm #
Uh, no. I’d like this to remain America for as long as possible. But what we can do is stop ignoring the bloody obvious for fear of violating asinine standards of political correctness.
Comment by JHo on 11/10 @ 2:54 pm #
Speaking of caricature, one pines for withheld. witheld was a master.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 2:55 pm #
I’m sorry but you’ve mistaken America for some other country … like Myanmar or North Korea or Venezuela or Saudi Arabia or Iran.
and what Pablo said.
Comment by A simple mind on 11/10 @ 2:56 pm #
“El Surfista” He is a she?
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 2:56 pm #
What sdferr and Pablo said. Good Allah.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 3:00 pm #
The crocodile eats them last.
Comment by Kzin on 11/10 @ 3:01 pm #
Here are some suggestions on what to do with Islam in our country.
Stop or at least reduce the inflow of more muslim immigrants. Stop allowing such large numbers of relatives via “family unification” immigration rules.
Make it more difficult for them here by not recognizing their holidays, by not changing public school lunch menu to be “halal”, by not teaching school kids in Arabic as some are here in Dearbornistan, etc.
Make the construction of mosques and Islamic “centers of learning” more difficult to construct. Declare Islam not merely a religion but a seditious political ideology (which it is).
If we did all of the above, many would self-deport on their own. The remaining would assimilate more to our American traditions, values, customs, etc. In other words, left the remaining small numbers “wither on the vine”.
Comment by Capt Blasto on 11/10 @ 3:07 pm #
Let me preface by saying I do not want to lose America by becoming those we hate and persecute Muslims out of fear. We lose that way because who would be next?
But.. someday an Islamic nuke will go off in an American city. It will. My question is- will that be enough to start the persecutions? No. How about a second nuke? A third?
These fanatics are at war with us because God tells them to be. We cannot fight this enemy with ideas. We have to use force until they decide enough is enough. It is us or them and I fear we will become the enemy to defeat them.
So the question is.. when do we start? Or is there some other way? I hope so.
Comment by John Bibb on 11/10 @ 3:09 pm #
***
The murdering Jihadi will get his day in court. And if he is found guilty a “long drop with a short rope” to pay for his crimes.
***
The American Pravda (not “MSM”) will be unable to spin this “final result”. No more than Baghdad Bob could spin Saddam Hussein’s final voyage sendoff. Although Saddam probably did a little spinning on his rope.
***
Rocketman
***
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 3:10 pm #
Unwittingly maybe, the legacy media and the nutroot blogs have painted themselves into a real tight corner here. To deny that Hasan was a jihadist, and by extension a terrorist regardless of him being a gang of one, means that instead they must either blame it on ineptitude or political correctness gone wild…
All of which are toxic revelations, simply of varying degree…
And really there are only two possibilities, because the excuse of ineptitude leads directly to an exposure of institutionalized political correctness; something that the great number if independant and low information voters will find only a but less maddening than if it becomes conventional wisdom that he was a jihadist bent on killing Americans here to save fellow Muslims “over there”…
So it is that we are in the odd position of looking to Joe Liebermann to try and make sure that the truth enters into the public consciousness.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 3:10 pm #
Hmm, actively denying that a terrorist attack occured on American soil because otherwise it would be detrimental to who?
Obfuscating to drown out the question of who failed to connect the dots, because otherwise it hurts who?
Relying of pop psychology for reasons to distract from the failings of the law enforcement model in fighting terrorism, otherwise would be bad for who?
Comment by Alec Leamas on 11/10 @ 3:12 pm #
I sure hope they’re not all sending fan mail to Al Qaeda.
Comment by JHo on 11/10 @ 3:13 pm #
What is the crocodile and how does the MSM know about it?
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:13 pm #
“…make sure that the truth enters into the public consciousness.”
Too late (for the deniers), it’s already gotten in there Bob, hence the outpouring of thoughts of alienation from people everywhere we look.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 3:13 pm #
Kzin, your ideas are intriguing, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 3:15 pm #
The MSM flushed the Arkansas jihadis down the memory hole, why not these?
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 3:19 pm #
“No faith justifies these murderous and craven acts; no just and loving God looks upon them with favor,”
Beg pardon Mr. President. One faith does. Read the 4th Sura (sp?) of the Quran. Its pretty much in black and white. Then go to the mosque at Falls Church, Va next Friday.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 3:19 pm #
The situation with Islam is unique, and I too like Capt Blasto wonder how to effectively combat ot without succumbing to totalitarian techniques, or engaging in wholesale societal segregation like with the Japanese in WWII; an answer I do not believe would be either effective or even right.
Part of the problem is that Islam seems to dictate what a “righteous” government is and is not, and instruct it’s adherents that the establishment of such “righteous” governments is serving the will of God. Unlike in the west Islam hasn’t undergone any sort of reformation; even the bitter struggles between Sunni and Shia have not led to a separation of the secular and the theological, as happened ultimately in the west.
It’s a tough nut to crack for sure…The price of freedom is eternal vigilience…
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 3:22 pm #
OTT
Answer: it’s all bad for Obama regardless of which way it’s spun…
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 3:22 pm #
Something tells me we got linked somewhere.
Kzin (hindmost? How’s The Ring?) The problem with your program (beyond the obvious Constitutional issues)is that much of it mirrors what is done to Christians in Muslim countries. Egypt has a vibrant and very old Christian population (Orthodox, Coptic and Gnostic) and yet it is virtually impossible to get permission to build a church. In fact it’s almost impossible to get a permit to repair a church. Christians are regularly arrested and charged with both religious crimes (evangelizing Muslims, insulting Islam, etc.) and political ones (mostly treason) as a way to both sooth the savage fundamentalists and keep Christians in their place.
As far as schools and curriculum are concerned, I’m with you there. There is no reason to teach Muslim precepts beyond the bare history nor is there any reason to kow-tow to dietary needs. Orthodox Jews tend to work around dietary restrictions in public schools or attend Jewish schools. Those schools have to meet governmental standards. They still manage to achieve a level of assimilation.
Capt. Blasto: You can’t on the one hand argue that we shouldn’t oppress Muslims out of fear and then, on the other hand, present a maximum fear mongering scenario. I would argue, as Pablo did above, that we can achieve a reasonable measure of protection just by facing, without fear, the realities of radicalized Islam and its followers. There are laws on the books that can be used to combat these people (terroristic threats being one) that overrule religious freedom when some imam is calling for jihad against the U.S.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact but it does exist. Let’s be clear eyed and stalwart and unapologetic about our desire for security without becoming Egypt-lite.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 3:23 pm #
sdferr,
I hope you’re right brother, because there are forces pushing awfully hard to convince us all that we what we percieved is not what happened…
Let’s hope they’re pushing on the proverbial string.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:24 pm #
“The MSM flushed the Arkansas jihadis down the memory hole, why not these?”
You mean that people will forget Maj. Hasan JD, as opposed to understand that he acted as an enemy of the United States on behalf of his religious beliefs? Sure they will forget eventually, but Hasan’s story has a long road yet to stand before our attention, as he heals from his wounds, speaks his mind on his deeds (proudly, I’ll wager, though dissembling along the way as well), is tried for his murders accomplished and sentenced with punishment to follow. Forgetting though is a far cry from misunderstanding what the man was about. I doubt the political operators and their lap-dog media will be able to plant a false story strong enough to overcome the weight of ready to hand evidence available to anyone who cares to look.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 3:28 pm #
Bob Reed: Islam makes no provisions for separation of church and state. Muhammad was prophet, warrior and statesman. The very concept of the first amendment is an anathema to most believers, I think. The only way for a believer to accept this concept is to deny both the history of Islam and its scripture.
That in and of itself is a big problem, a problem not shared by fundamentalist Christians who know that they must render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:30 pm #
“We cannot fight this enemy with ideas.”
The hell we can’t. Ideas, after all, stand at the foundations of the conflict in the first place: ideas we promote got our jihadi enemies riled up to begin with. Ideas that the English speaking people develop and put to work in the world have remade that world in ways that undermine the comforts of our Wahabi enemies’ worldview and disrupt their societies to this day. Though shit, say we. We are changing our ideas to accommodate them but only to suit our own sense of our own interests.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 3:31 pm #
On that, I agree, sdferr. But this story will persist in spite of their efforts. It is unconscionable how they ignored the Arkansas shootings, and the ties to terrorism of the perps. And they are currently busy trying out different memes to form Teh Narrative for this one.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:32 pm #
“Though shit, say we. We are changing our ideas to accommodate them but only to suit our own sense of our own interests.”
Should read, had I written it properly: Tough shit, say we. We aren’t changing our ideas to accommodate them but only to suit our own sense of our own interests.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 3:34 pm #
In CNN’s case, I’d say the willful avoidance of jihadist constructs is less a sop to political correction and more a reflection of naked cowardice.
We have that example of CNN in Iraq during Saddam’s tenure. Perhaps others are also feeling the burn.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 3:34 pm #
BJ correctly points out the fundamental difficulty with Islam, in that there are no lines between religion and governance. Plus, splodeydopes.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 3:36 pm #
… and ugly headgear and beheadings … and, well, the entire modernized concept of Jihad.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:40 pm #
“…and ugly headgear and beheadings…”
Speaking of which, have you seen this? Interview with an executioner.
Comment by McGehee on 11/10 @ 3:45 pm #
I seem to recall smokeless powder started out as an idea.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 3:45 pm #
BJT,
You and I are in complete concurrence on the inherent theocatic nature of Islam; you just said it a lot less circuitously.
To put it in other terms, if less Muslims were “orhtodox” and instead adopted a more western “reformed” viewpoint vis-a-vis society and governance, this whole problem would be a lot easier to resolve.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 3:49 pm #
“…if less Muslims were “orhtodox” and instead adopted a more western “reformed” viewpoint vis-a-vis society and governance, this whole problem would be a lot easier to resolve.”
That sounds an awful lot like the suggested definition of bipartisanship I hear batted about these days: “Republicans cede to Democrat ideas, vote for Democrat proposals without bothering to offer their own and everyone gets along.”
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 3:54 pm #
The crocodile that disappeared two large buildings in New York. (Actual total building count was 10 destroyed or badly damaged.)
Also what Old Texas Turkey said @22 with regard to political cover insofar as it relates to the media preferring to live in fantasy land.
It’s a two-fer: political cover for the 0ne! and prevents targets being painted on the backs of the media establishment by psychiatrists who have PTSD-by-proxy (terrorist).
Pingback by The needs of Obama outweigh the need for the truth! on 11/10 @ 3:55 pm #
[...] UPDATE: Darleen at Protein Wisdom weighs in on the media’s willful disregard for the facts in their l… [...]
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 4:01 pm #
You have a point sdferr,
But there is a world of difference between a Islamic theocracy and the enlightenment ideas codified in our Constitution that are supposed to direct governance in our society.
Anyway, as the progressive left is the more intransigent, my-way-or-the-highway faction, I’m tempted to say they are the analogue of the orthodox Muslims as opposed to the enlightened ideal I envision as being the “reformed”.
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 4:02 pm #
Islam seems to dictate what a “righteous” government is and is not, and instruct it’s adherents that the establishment of such “righteous” governments is serving the will of God.
Have the American taxpayers been funding the establishment of “righteous” Islamic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan?
If so, why?
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 4:04 pm #
Bob: Whatever “reformation” Islam needs to have in order to more fully align itself with liberal western governance, it will have to be an entirely different action than occured with Christian Reformation.
Unlike The Reformation, Islam will have to find a way to move further from quranic scripture and the concepts put forth by its founder. Christians ultimately embraced religious tolerance and the ending of theocracies that buttressed the whole Divine Right of Kings meme. Protestants argued that removing religion from government allowed religion to flourish in all of its forms without the heavy hand of big brother. Other than the ongoing quasi-experiment in Turkey with secularism there is simply no historical basis for m Islam to argue away from tradition and scripture.
They will have to make a clean break from over a thousand years of clearly defined tenets and established theocracies. Not an easy task. But that’s where the power of the ideas of Democracy might take root.
Comment by BJTexs on 11/10 @ 4:08 pm #
Alphie: See “the power of the ideas of Democracy” and try to see ahead ten or twenty years in the future where Muslims that this idea of representative government and freedom is a good thing. I know it doesn’t fit the ragged sandal of your narrative but try and expand your mind.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither will freedom in the Middle east. Great things require time, patience and sacrifice. You, on the other hand, could give a skinny rat’s ass ab out freedom and Democracy in West Asia.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 4:08 pm #
Hang on Bob, I think I may have misunderstood you. When you said “if less Muslims were orthodox and instead adopted…etc” I took you to be speaking about Muslims generally and Muslims of foreign lands specifically, where now I think you to have been referring more exclusively to American Muslims, whether citizen or resident? Did you have such a distinction in mind? And if so, I think I might agree with you that the more restricted category might reasonably be called to take a modified theological stance voluntarily in order to adhere to our political principles first. That, however, is still a matter of conscience, I guess, how I see it.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 4:13 pm #
Snowcone the answer to your question is the last line in #49
Not setting up wahabi-esque theocracies, but contitutional states in a former dictatorship and a former theocracy. Its not an easy task and will take time .
Comment by El Surfista on 11/10 @ 4:16 pm #
To put it in other terms, if less Muslims were “orhtodox” and instead adopted a more western “reformed” viewpoint vis-a-vis society and governance, this whole problem would be a lot easier to resolve.
That’s really the crux of the problem, though. With Islam, we have a religion that – although in the “Allah is love” vein typical to the semitic monotheistic beliefs – also incorporated conquest and conversion (and early antipathy to Jews) into its foundation myths, such that the two have been hopelessly intermingled every since. Furthermore, Mohammed was given his prophecy directly from the mouth of Allah via Gabriel; thus, we cannot “interpret” the Qu’ran in the same matter that modern liberal society was able to “interpret” the Bible, i.e. as a book of parables and allegory, divinely inspired, but not infallible. Islam is also more than a religion, a Sunday-service-then-back-to-work faith. A true Muslim cannot, by definition, separate his civil governance, judiciary and legislature from the strictures of Allah.
We are faced with the bizarre problem, then, that, in order to be fully integrated as a US citizen, one has to be a weak or tepid Muslim, with enough doubts about his faith to enable him/her to fully embrace the doctrine and structure of Western Liberal Society. The only democracy that can be internally consistent to a Muslim would, by definition, have to be an entirely Muslim democracy. Anglo-Saxon society will always be the infidel society.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 4:21 pm #
It oughtn’t to go unremarked that the theological/political struggle we are talking about, that is, severance of the godly religious aspects of human life from the political mundane aspects or contrariwise, unification of the two, is going on as we speak in Iran, due to the discredit brought on Khomeini’s theologico-political theory by the recent mistreatment of the people of Iran. Khomeini’s unification of the two was a real overturning of centuries of tradition and theological thought, much of which is still maintained in other centers of religious instruction by other equally esteemed religious thinkers in Shia Islam, such as in Najaf, among other places. The contest has been well underway for many years and the outcome is more uncertain today than it has been for quite some time.
Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 4:24 pm #
There is always hope.
Look where we are with regards to Germany and Japan. Could any one imagine back in 1945 that we would all end up being allies and trading partners?
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 4:28 pm #
…a former theocracy
The Iraqi Constitution starts with this:
Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation
No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
Looks to me like we done been working to set up a theocracy in Iraq, OTT.
Plus, I thought Saddam ran a fairly secular government.
Under him, Iraqi Sunnis and Shias dated and even married…now, thanks to the neocons, that’s a stoning offense in Iraq.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 4:29 pm #
We are faced with the bizarre problem ..
Not so for me. Perhaps for the person that wants and needs to maintain strict adherence to the tenets of his muslim faith, America is not for him. He should stay back in Pakistan or wherever and make it work there. What is not acceptable is to come here and try to carve out an exception to your laws that pretty much stand in direct contrast to many accepted tenets of a western, capitalist (waht remains of it), society. The misogyny and consideration for prayers/meals is not acceptable as a burden on the host.
So come to think of it, it really is not that bizarre a problem. Its just a problem and one localized to stringent muslims. Snickers/Starbucks/Strippers/Porn/IPhones or Riyadh/Amman/Kabul/Baku/Kano?
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 4:29 pm #
That Greyhawk link is stunning, I didn’t want to believe an outfit like CNN would stoop to that level of dishonesty.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 4:36 pm #
You’re an idiot, snotcone. STFU. Adults are talking.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 4:36 pm #
Iraqi was the former dictatorship I referred to, Afghanistan was the theocracy.
The Iraqi Constitution starts with this:
Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation
No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
Looks to me like we done been working to set up a theocracy in Iraq, OTT.
Disagree. Election of leaders, Parliament, constitution, womens suffrage, Judiciary, power sharing are not hallmarks of a theocracy (rule by mullah and oh yes Sharia). The Iraqi army did take out Al Sadr’s milita in Basra. Which one was the the theocracy advocate?
Plus, I thought Saddam ran a fairly secular government. with a side of dictatorship, secret police, torture, mainming, murder and suppression of political opponents and ethnic minorities, but secular, yes
Under him, Iraqi Sunnis and Shias dated and even married…now, thanks to the neocons, that’s a stoning offense in Iraq. cite evidence please
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 4:36 pm #
…again.
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 4:47 pm #
Afghanistan was the theocracy
Was?
Remember when they were gonna execute that guy for converting to Christianity?
Bet that cost American taxpayers a few million worth of “understanding” to prevent.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 4:48 pm #
Got evidence of that, snotcone? No, you don’t. Fuck off.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 4:49 pm #
Snotnose inadvertantly gave lie to the Leftist canard that we were an imperialist aggressor.
And, it is painfully stoopid.
Comment by Makewi on 11/10 @ 4:50 pm #
Alphie knows better, as it has been pointed out to him repeatedly that only pulling the parts that you want to read makes one an untruthful asshole.
The whole story, again.
Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.
C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.
Second: This Constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice such as Christians, Yazedis, and Mandi Sabeans.
But then we all know that in no way is alphie interested in truth and he is certainly an asshole.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 4:50 pm #
Oh, and wasn’t it you insisting that we need to abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban, an actual theocracy? You have nothing to contribute to this discussion. So don’t.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 4:51 pm #
This other Greyhawk article, while less disturbing in the sense that it describes a conversation rather than a news article, is no less a cause of headshaking wonder at the stupidity of our media betters, Sally Quinn and Joe Scarborough.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 4:53 pm #
Good catch, Makewi. It never takes long for alphie/snotnose/Neville/parsnip/sniffles/monkeyboy to get caught in a brazen and overt lie.
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 4:53 pm #
You have nothing to contribute to this discussion. So don’t.
Are we judging a billion Muslims based on the actions of a few individuals yet again?
Serious work for right-wing eunuchs.
’bout all y’all got to do these days.
Comment by JHo on 11/10 @ 4:56 pm #
I think that’s symptomatic: The fundamental philosophical drip the proggs are on has to do with both self and multiculturalism as their own, interlinked, self-evident virtues – if the progg can’t find trajectory and meaning, he’ll take every opportunity to deny you trajectory and meaning, which self-reinforces the notion that all are equal because all will be made equal, especially those projected into their redstate bigotry by this neobigotry. See Woody Allen’s latest blundering embarrassment for an example of this aimless fear masquerading as intelligence, and all of it based on a insulated, cloistered world where created myth passes as reality and snide outrage at the conservative Other as enlightenment.
In the progg mind, the traditional US defiles proper “lberalism”, meaning that it won’t hew to the emerging monotheism of State value and principle. See the academy, the media, and what they harken back to, which is a hatred of their own caricature of traditional principle. It’s this phenomenon that Jeff’s partly built the blog on.
9/11 wasn’t the crux of progg angst and rage; traditional American values were because they reacted not against themselves, which is the progg whim, but against the perpetrators. Those values conflicted the accepted dogma of progressive State, which is why I asked what it was about that State that’s imprisoned proggs in this thrall. Part of it may be the simple-minded diversion known as two-party politics when there’s one effective party, but there’s something more.
I think it’s the division between both God and man — between external principle or natural law on the one hand, and internal doubt and fear on the other — and too between the new god of politically-progressive State and the “man” of former legal and political American individuality. Or, we can invert the two and simply find that progressivism fancies itself employing the State to finally stamp out God.
The State either destroys God or replaces God. Same effect, same motive. Only the semantics remain to be teased out.
At it’s core, which is what interests me, progressivism has tapped a vein of rich denial. It is supremely offended, ironically, that any notion of a supreme principle or value might be superior to its relativist solipsism and ultimately that special progg nihilism that values immediate ends over dangerous means. There is a profound lack of vision there that denies the long term repercussions of violating natural law.
It gets more insidious when that law is ridiculed, as we see it ridiculed in Keynesian economics as much as in popular culture and thought. There’s not a troll around here that can do any more than prop up strawmen and ridicule what they just know must be ridiculed, damn the reality. Fact and reason they do not deal in.
Comment by Makewi on 11/10 @ 4:58 pm #
Are we judging a billion Muslims based on the actions of a few individuals yet again?
No, there’s a conversation going on in which ideas are being put forth on how to reconcile the dictates of Islam with the fundamental principles of human rights. By all means add something constructive, otherwise fuck off.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 5:01 pm #
Alphie – Do you admit that you were being fundamentally dishonest, as Makewi pointed out above?
Comment by JHo on 11/10 @ 5:02 pm #
alphie’s gleefully bounding around the room with its pants around its ankles. Again. Look, attention.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 5:07 pm #
I’d trade him for a Muslim in a minute.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 5:08 pm #
I don’t know JHo, looks more to me like progressivism has got hold of a cul-de-sacced, losing, broken idea, one particularly unfit for working in the world other than to make enemies of us all.
Comment by ACME GoalPost Movers Inc on 11/10 @ 5:09 pm #
Mr. Snowcone, where would you like these posts placed now?
Comment by Kresh on 11/10 @ 5:10 pm #
WHY ARE YOU RESPONDING TO SNOWCONE? YOU CANNOT UNMAKE THE RETARDED. STOP TRYING. HE LIKES THE HARD POUNDING YOU ARE GIVING HIM.
Yes, CNN is pathetic. Not surprising. If they’re not fellating O!, then they’re busy putting on their Burquas in order to not offend muslims.
Hard core, these cowards are.
Comment by Old Texas Turkey on 11/10 @ 5:16 pm #
C’mon Kresh. Sometimes stuffing the loudmouth in a locker is fun.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 5:22 pm #
Hasan’s Powerpoint presentation. A commentary on same.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 5:27 pm #
“Are we judging a billion Christians
Muslimsbased on the actions of a few individuals yet again?”Comment by ghost707 on 11/10 @ 5:30 pm #
Good post JHo,
That’s why I enjoy reading this blog, encourages me to think in more dimensions, for lack of a better word.
These statements stood out to me:
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 5:35 pm #
sdferr,
I was speaking generally of American Muslims, but as BJ pointed out Islamic societies have to undergo a substantial reformation and secularization of their governments in order to interact on par in the western forum of nations; otherwise we’ll have to keep resorting to formulating rules for all, and the special subsets for protected subcultures-ones that may be using our own rules and civility against us. We can’t hope for the multi-culti philosophy to be abandoned by the Europeans, nor stop being exploited by the Muslims. Old Europe will one day slip completely into dhimmitude…
On a simple level, the west chose to divorce religion from governance both so that Protestants wouldn’t contimue to be oppressed by the then prevailing majority, and as a reaction to the terrible bloodshed due to the warring between Protestants and Catholics for cultural dominance. Perhaps there is not as much of a difference between Sunni and Shia that they can’t both agree to the Quranic precept of a righteous theocratic governance.
That and the perhaps the oldest middle-eastern societal calculus; “The enemy of my enemy, is my friend…”
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 5:38 pm #
“On a simple level, the west chose to divorce religion from governance both so that Protestants wouldn’t contimue to be oppressed by the then prevailing majority, and as a reaction to the terrible bloodshed due to the warring between Protestants and Catholics for cultural dominance.”
Too simple, but that’s another story. A long long story.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 5:42 pm #
link
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 5:49 pm #
“…as BJ pointed out Islamic societies have to undergo a substantial reformation and secularization of their governments in order to interact on par in the western forum of nations; otherwise we’ll have to keep resorting to formulating rules for all, and the special subsets for protected subcultures-ones that may be using our own rules and civility against us.”
As far as necessity can take us, I can’t help but to think the usual human ways will hold in this kind of contest as have held throughout recorded history. It’s war turtles all the way down. Whoever wins has the better of the argument. If their vision of reality is the case they will win. If ours, we will win. Adapt or die kinda contest.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 5:51 pm #
What is this epidemic of denial? What purpose does it serve?
They don’t get called racists or Islamophobes by their little friends. Being shunned is the crocodile.
Look, Maj. Hasan saw the U.S. military as The Enemy. Anyone who thinks that the U.S. Military is The Enemy should not be IN the U.S. military, regardless of how he arrived at that conclusion. If you’re a pacifist who believes in fragging your officers, you should not be in the military. If you’re a white supremacist who believes that the military’s desegregation is a threat to the country, you should not be in the military.
If you’re a Muslim who does NOT believe that the U.S. military is The Enemy, go ahead and serve with our blessing.
It’s that simple. This is not about going on a witch-hunt to root out all Muslims; it’s about detecting and expelling those whose personal beliefs compel them to see the U.S. military as The Enemy.
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY SEEM TO BE DISPOSED TO VIOLENCE!
How hard can that be, Skippy?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 5:55 pm #
unleash not the turtles of war
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 5:56 pm #
this is my favorite blog ever
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 5:59 pm #
“…unleash not the turtles of war”
Oh, they’re leashed alright, but leashed to one another. Once some idiot like Bin Laden jerks on the chain we’re all bound to follow the wave to someone’s end.
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 6:04 pm #
…ideas are being put forth on how to reconcile the dictates of Islam with the fundamental principles of human rights
I didn’t realize you guys were all Muslims.
My apologies.
Comment by greginsewa on 11/10 @ 6:07 pm #
This bullshit is truly amazing. I don’t think the fucker had stopped shooting before the douches at the FBI werre hollering that “This wasn’t an act of terrorism!”
By their warped definition, apparently even 9/11 wasn’t an act of terrorism. Stupid fucks.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 6:07 pm #
which self-reinforces the notion that all are equal because all will be made equal
You could define modern leftism as an attempt to obliterate all lines, erase all boundaries, conflate all concepts, and convert everything into an amorphous goo where they can work their will without hindrance. Ergo, anyone who draws a line, recognizes a boundary, insists on TRVTH over ideology, or merely says “no” is an enemy.
To wit: one of my Twitter encounters today featured a lefty who maintained that Glenn Beck made a RACIST attack on Obama. To which I responded: “Enough already. Resorting to the racist smear only reveals you as a malicious liar who’s got nuthin”
We’re all familiar with the left’s inability to use language properly; much of it has to do with their inability/refusal to recognize any boundaries whatsoever.
You’ll notice that lefties are terrified of creating (unable to create?) two subcategories out of “Muslim”: peaceable and The Enemy. They project this inability onto the mythical gun-crazed wingers, whom they think will see only one category, too — The Enemy — without being able to separate out the peaceable ones.
Will we never be rid of this faulty reasoning?
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 6:08 pm #
War turtles sound awesome. Are they like those sharks with lasers on their heads?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 6:11 pm #
did y’all see this I thought it was unflinchingly correct and very unpleasant to read and think about.
He says some stuff I’m not sure about but this seems bang on to me.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 6:13 pm #
Much sneakier than the sharks JD. Everybody takes them for pals, then they get you.
Comment by JD on 11/10 @ 6:18 pm #
Dicentra – Given the leftists ability to scream RACISM over anything and everything, that exchange was priceless.
War hermit crabs and war gerbils would be good, though that might cause some problems for snotnose.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 6:19 pm #
That’s a good article happyfeet. Obama for sure today and I think Gen. Casey with him, referred to Hasan’s killings as unimaginable. That is to say, referred to them as precisely what they are not, for they were imagined long ago without much difficulty at all. That these important men can be so wrong about the world spells nothing but trouble to come.
Comment by El Surfista on 11/10 @ 6:23 pm #
The way I see it, the Left tends to divide the Muslim world into two separate (and unrealistic) working points:
A: The Muslim world was toiling along just fine, thank-you, with their one hundred percent valid cultural structure, before the West, lusting for their resources and hungry for global domination, humiliated the Islamic world and attempted to force the exploitative liberal capitalistic structure onto the pious and fractured remnants of the Ottoman Empire. The Muslim world is completely justified in their seething anger against endless Western aggression and disrespect, and until these legitimate grievances have been redressed, fully, we can only rightfully expect further acts of violence from an otherwise powerless and alienated culture.
B: Muslim violence is abhorrent and cannot be excused, but the simple fact of the matter is that Western countries have inflicted far more violence upon the Islamic nations than they have ever received back, and this imbalance – combined with the fact the the West continues to ruthlessly occupy Muslim nations – has led a small minority to push back with terrorism. Nevertheless, we cannot judge all Muslims by this small core, as the majority are followers of a peaceful religion, from countries with peaceful traditions, and an attitude toward infidels that has always been peaceful and tolerant. Due to the fact that the Muslim world senses our mistrust of their entire community based upon the acts of a handful of madmen, they are wholly justified is endlessly decrying every Western act perceived as being disrespectful to the Muslim world and, furthermore, we have no one to blame but ourselves when our occupation, and said disrespect, causes an otherwise peaceful Muslim to snap and start wiping our innocent and unsuspecting fellow workers, citizens, soldiers, etc.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 6:23 pm #
Well, here’s your blowback.
LefTweeters say it’s Malkin and Beck’s fault. Again with the logic.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 6:30 pm #
No good ever comes of spelling Jason with an e.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 6:35 pm #
link
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 6:40 pm #
its greek to me
Comment by mcgruder on 11/10 @ 6:45 pm #
I understand the anger of those who would lash out at Muslims, beleive you me. Just lets fight back the lesser angels.
In addition to the utter heinousness of the crime–crime feels like the wrong sort of word, please let me know if a better one exists–the pain is made worse by the refusal of the MSM to address a key subplot: his indoctrination.
Awful.
Comment by SDN on 11/10 @ 6:56 pm #
Do we have any confirmation that the police actually wrote the incident up that way? Let’s just say that in dealing with a religion that practices taqqiya, a writer named Jamal Thalji raises my eyebrows….
Comment by guinsPen on 11/10 @ 6:59 pm #
I believe “attack” fits.
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 7:00 pm #
Another terrorist attack in America today:
A Marine reservist beat a Greek Orthodox priest with a tire iron.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1050707.ece
Where did he learn such hate I wonder?
Comment by Funnelcake on 11/10 @ 7:07 pm #
Eat me.
Comment by Abe Froman on 11/10 @ 7:10 pm #
LOL at Slowcone.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 7:11 pm #
Where did he learn such hate I wonder?
From watching his fellow servicemen die at the hands of a Jihadist?
Naw, couldn’t be it.
Comment by Mark A. Flacy on 11/10 @ 7:15 pm #
Snowcone, make the world a better place and go kill yourself.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 7:18 pm #
“Another terrorist attack in America today:”
you post everyday so what
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 7:18 pm #
That’s a pretty good trick, given that Beck hasn’t been on the air since the shooting.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 7:21 pm #
That’s a pretty good trick, given that Beck hasn’t been on the air since the shooting.
Beck has his ways…
Comment by Snowcone on 11/10 @ 7:57 pm #
From watching his fellow servicemen die at the hands of a Jihadist?
So this hero goes and beats on a dusky Christian?
Comment by Hvy Mtl Hntr on 11/10 @ 8:03 pm #
Nothing new here with the way the progs in the MSM are spinning this terror attack- they will ALWAYS provide cover for these assholes. They secretly cheer these kind of appalling acts against the America of the Founding Fathers; they just don’t have the stones to actually come out and SAY it. Cowardly to the core.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:05 pm #
“So this Hasan
herogoes and beats on a dusky Christian?”Comment by Abe Froman on 11/10 @ 8:07 pm #
Who called him a hero snowloon? He’s a bonehead, just like you are. And he’s going to pay a price for his foolishness.
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:07 pm #
some guy named mohammad is put to death right now. death to mohammads.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 8:18 pm #
Allahu akbar.
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 8:22 pm #
Oh, it has to be PTSD. That’s the right and proper conclusion to jump to.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 8:26 pm #
there’s a picture of the tire ironed guy there now. He does look not unlike a terrorist I think.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 8:28 pm #
sdferr,
You commented that the short explanation I put forth earlier for the development in the west of the separation of religion and governance was too simple. While I understand that it was in fact a more involved societal process, when talking to folks outside of the PW commentariat, it is often handy to have short and sweet explanations they can wrap their minds around easily; such as my description of the advent of that separation in the west, that has not occurred in Islam-with the exception of modern Turkey and Iran under the Shah.
I’m curious as to just what important detail(s) you thought I left out? If there a few more you think I should add into that “laundry list” for use in “meatworld” conversations I’d be much obliged if you’d point them out.
I’m not saying everyone in society is stupid, but being out and about on Long Island is not quite the same as interacting among the sophisticated PW crew!
Comment by Makewi on 11/10 @ 8:32 pm #
I didn’t realize you guys were all Muslims.
My apologies.
Keep fucking that chicken alphie. It don’t mind, much.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 8:33 pm #
the dirty socialist AP says the priest tried to make the marine his bitch or something
Comment by cynn on 11/10 @ 8:34 pm #
Dicentra has a good point. I was thinking along these lines yesterday. I suppose that Islam forbids a believer to place him/herself in a position to kill other believers. That would surely cause angst and agitation. So as a rational Muslim, I would not put myself in such a position. We have a volunteer military. Therefore, it would follow that rational Muslims would self-select and not volunteer, because it might pit them against their beliefs.
It is a given that the military cannot cater to personal preferences and deploy people to places where they won’t encounter existential dilemmas. The whole point of the military is to act on command.
So maybe Hasan should have opened a 7-11 franchise, or something.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 8:36 pm #
whatever the deal is… I want the name and number of this guy’s attorney. He’s very, very good at this business.
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 8:38 pm #
Maybe a little Greek unOrthodox, huh ‘feets?
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:40 pm #
“it would follow that rational Muslims”
only if you think islam is “rational”. there is a rationality to the judeo-christian world view.
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 8:42 pm #
Although they don’t really seem to have a whole lot of trouble killing one another if you really think about it.
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 8:45 pm #
oh. Jeff Brown.
also the first story hadn’t said that this guy followed the guy into his parking garage…
something doesn’t add up, if the priest can’t speak English than what hope of help did he have from Jason with an e?
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 8:46 pm #
unorthodox but then they’re still gonna get him for gay-bashing I’d imagine…
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:49 pm #
white males cause all the problems. oh tag if you like
Comment by Pablo on 11/10 @ 8:49 pm #
We’re back to having to look closely at definitions. In this case, “believer” is pretty squishy.
Comment by cynn on 11/10 @ 8:49 pm #
BMoe: I suppose that but I don’t actually believe it. I can still suspect it, though.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 8:54 pm #
You can be sure that the incident in Tampa will be breathlessly repeated many times over the next few days. The MSM won’t let a good Bunnies!1!!1! opportunity like that go to waste; especially when it feeds into their concern meme about backlashes…
I don’t know about where all y’all live, but I don’t see no Muslims being rounded up, beaten, or crowded into internment camps where I am…
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:55 pm #
“saying Marakis was lost when he followed Bruce into the garage and asked for help,”
yea when you’re lost you follow anything that moves
Comment by newrouter on 11/10 @ 8:56 pm #
hey where are the pedophile priest people?
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 8:57 pm #
Good point happyfeet; id he spoke no english how did he expect to get directions from the young marine? Maybe he wanted to ask him if he’s ever been to the Greek isles…
Or tell him how good he looked in his blue jeans…
Comment by cynn on 11/10 @ 9:03 pm #
#133: Exactly, Pablo. I’m a religious dilettante, and even I would have the cowardice to avoid a commitment that would threaten my allegeance.
Comment by B Moe on 11/10 @ 9:05 pm #
Or if he was satisfied with the way his father had reared him.
I know, denounced already.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 9:16 pm #
For a shorthand version of our story Bob, I think it’s easiest to go with a two streams theory, emerging from two cities (again, in a shorthand sort of way), namely Jerusalem on the one hand and Athens on the other. Our secular political traditions and scientific manner of the pursuit of “what is” do issue from the philosophic thought of the ancient Greeks. Our religious monotheism, our Mosaic and Christian ethical traditions of course from the Holy land or Jerusalem for short. These two are certainly in tension with one another at times and we as individuals struggle within ourselves to reconcile them as best we can. Yet for the most part, they get along rather well nowadays, I think, though that condition is not guaranteed to last forever as new challenges may arise.
Comment by J."Trashman" Peden on 11/10 @ 9:17 pm #
Although they don’t really seem to have a whole lot of trouble killing one another if you really think about it.
Since Bill Maher tole me right away they hate each other so much that they won’t even cooperate to fight the Great Satan, I don’t even have to think about it.
Comment by J."Trashman" Peden on 11/10 @ 9:37 pm #
If the MSM wants me to divert my alleged ~”reflexive, uncontrollable anger” toward its own sad jihad-apologist’s ass instead of toward Muslims in general, which never crossed my mind to begin with, Mission Accomplished! If the actual terrorists are not readily available, I’m happy to go after their domestic partners.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 9:46 pm #
Thanks sdferr,
That discussion will certainly work with folks that appreciate philosophical discussions, but might be harder to grasp for others who might not be so well schooled in history.
Do you think the secularization of western governance was due more to enlightenment philosophies and renaissance thinkers than a practical result of events of and directly after the reformation-like the thirty years war? Or perhaps that there is an equal portion of both there?
I mean, without the rise of humanism, Protestantism may not have developed when and how it did, so I guess that as far as the “order of operations” go the renaissance came first, and led to both results, the reformation and enlightenment ideas.
But folks not as well versed may follow a practical discussion easier…
For what it’s worth I personally have no trouble reconciling the “Athens” influences and “Jerusalem” influences in my life, neither one conflicts with the other; Render unto Caesar etc…
Thanks for the input!
Comment by happyfeet on 11/10 @ 9:52 pm #
I like turtles.
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 9:58 pm #
“Do you think the secularization of western governance was due more to enlightenment philosophies and renaissance thinkers than a practical result of events of and directly after the reformation-like the thirty years war? Or perhaps that there is an equal portion of both there?”
I haven’t the wit nor learning to say one way or another really. Certainly the mind boggling near unknowable exigencies of practical problems requiring solutions plays a great role in the trudge of events and outcomes, but without the theoretical structures sitting in the minds of the actors acting on the events, defining their horizons, guiding their decisions, things wouldn’t have trudged away as they have either.
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 10:03 pm #
So true sdferr. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts…
Comment by serr8d on 11/10 @ 10:06 pm #
We did get rid of one Muhammad today, executed for his terrorisms.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 11:32 pm #
The Tampa Bay article has expanded since I last saw it (or maybe I just got around to reading it; I dunno).
It’s pretty clear that Bruce didn’t go huntin’ for a Muslim to bash; rather, he claims the guy said “Allahu Akbar” before doing something vulgar. Don’t know if that claim is even close to the truth, but it still doesn’t sound like Bruce popped off on some guy who was minding his own business.
Comment by dicentra on 11/10 @ 11:35 pm #
Do you think the secularization of western governance was due more to enlightenment philosophies and renaissance thinkers than a practical result of events of and directly after the reformation-like the thirty years war?
In the absence of the Enlightenment and such, the problem of multiple religions under one government would prolly have been solved by one Church overpowering and destroying the others, either before or after capturing the power of the state.
Or am I totally not following the thread?
Comment by Bob Reed on 11/10 @ 11:43 pm #
You’re following it Dicentra. One of the points we were discussing was the theocratic govenment that the Quran stipulates Muslims to establish. And another was that only by separating religion from government could Muslim majority nations actually address the issue of extremism in conjunction with the rest of the world, and not be seen as betraying other Muslims…
Along the way sdferr and I got on a side track discussion of the source of that separation in the west…
Comment by sdferr on 11/10 @ 11:51 pm #
We all start learning stuff from the time that we’re little tykes, stuff that we’ve no idea where it came from but is just there to explain the world or parts of the world. The question sort of is, what is that explanatory stuff, where did it actually come from, who cooked it up, etc. That’s the deal. Like with nature on the one hand and revelation on the other, that stuff was already long there in the world before we got there to learn it. But every now and then new ideas or combinations of ideas come along that explain things better or clear up existing confusions. And that gets taken up and learned anew later on. Some of the explanatory stuff goes way back, so far back that no-one we know has the foggiest idea where it came from. But it did come from somewhere, somewhere distinct from all the other somewheres. So……..
Comment by Rusty on 11/11 @ 6:23 am #
Do you think the secularization of western governance was due more to enlightenment philosophies and renaissance thinkers than a practical result of events of and directly after the reformation-like the thirty years war? Or perhaps that there is an equal portion of both there?
Bob. I think it was a long hard slog beginning with the church.The churches constant need to affirm its authority required scholars, promoted learning. Now here is the off center part. In its desire to prosteletize christianity the church promoted discovery. Catholic europe desired trade and knowledge. Or at least knowledge was a side benefit of trade(Vasco deGama). I think that a better question would be not what caused secularization of our government, but instead, what mechanism of western thought made the west so sucessful, when older more organized, more sophisticated societies failed? I think your answer lies there.
Comment by MikeT on 11/11 @ 10:06 am #
So, you hate Muslims, Blacks and Mexicans… anyone else?
Comment by Darleen on 11/11 @ 10:12 am #
MikeT
who is this “you”? And is “Muslim” an ethnicity? Or are “Black and Mexicans” ideologies?
Maybe you should actually use your head for something more than a hat prop.
Comment by sdferr on 11/11 @ 10:16 am #
Darleen, MikeT seems like a poor candidate on whom to conduct a Turing test. Witless and stupid is very hard to distinguish from a computer program.
Comment by DarthRove on 11/11 @ 10:17 am #
MikeT, I hate anybody who wants to kill me and mine for what they consider the crime of breathing the same air they do.
Comment by MikeT on 11/11 @ 12:07 pm #
I think Bill O’Reilly represents your views pretty well when he lamented, “we can’t kill all the Muslims.” (But, if there was a way to kill 1 billion Muslims, I’m sure many of you would if you could)
Comment by sdferr on 11/11 @ 12:10 pm #
Who the hell are you kidding, yourself? You don’t think MikeT. You emote and spew homemade nonsense built of the piffle you’ve stored up in your brain.
Comment by Pablo on 11/11 @ 12:13 pm #
What makes you “think” that was a lamentation, as opposed to a statement of obvious fact, Mike? And what leads you to believe that second utterly fucking ignorant statement? It certainly isn’t reading the comments here.
Comment by Squid on 11/11 @ 12:14 pm #
Funny thing is, I pretty much hate everybody. Milk & Cheese are my role models.
Comment by JD on 11/11 @ 12:35 pm #
I pretty much hate MikeT.
Comment by Darleen on 11/11 @ 12:53 pm #
MikeT never actually reads his own links
the full quote is As a soldier, we can’t kill all the Muslims so we want to win the hearts and minds of as many good, moderate Muslims as we can.
who do you think you are, MikeTee, with the clipped quote to say something that wasn’t said? CNN?
Comment by Rusty on 11/11 @ 1:00 pm #
Brom Bob to Mike T. Talk about inducing a vacuum.
Comment by McGehee on 11/11 @ 3:51 pm #
Every single one of those seven words is a lie. And if you’d thrown in an “and” or “the” they’d be lies too.
Comment by maggie katzen on 11/12 @ 1:07 am #
oh, let me know next time you’re going to a Renaissance Faire. ;D